Is this balance? — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Is this balance?

eagles.6380eagles.6380 Member ✭✭
edited October 4, 2018 in Professions

Across all game modes the majority of POF spec's absolutely dominate HOT spec's in all aspects of the game,

Holosmith dominates scrapper in fractals and raids and pvp
Spellbreaker dominates berserkers in fractals raids, pvp and wvw
Scourge dominates reaper in fractals, raids, pvp and wvw
Firebrand dominates dragonhunter in fractals, raids, pvp and wvw
Weaver dominates tempest in fractals, raids, pvp and wvw

There are maybe two exceptions to this list with chrono dominating mirage in terms of fractals and raids with boon share, and druid being used as a support spec in fractals and raids, and you could say daredevil also but this is a pvp spec that see's little use in fractals, almost non existent in raids.

Why do the PoF specs dominate so hard and why are the HoT specs being left behind..

Comments

  • starlinvf.1358starlinvf.1358 Member ✭✭✭✭

    The short answer is Yes....... thats what happens when your system strongly rewards damage output, and you have builds designed around dealing damage. Same thing happened during HOT; all the damage/combat oriented builds dominated the others. Plus Temptest; because Tempest was just OP. :P

  • steki.1478steki.1478 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Besides scrapper, the other 4 classes have quite strong HoT specs in pve (or comparable to PoF ones in the worst case). Scrapper is without doubt the best wvw healer atm. Reaper is still quite strong in pvp (or at least I've heard that from many people).

    Berserker, scrapper and dh are still quite good roamers. Necro isnt even designed for roaming and reaper can work quite well in zergs in some situations. Berserker and dh offer nothing to wvw zergs, so no buffs will make them better.

    The rest does need some balance.

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  • InsaneQR.7412InsaneQR.7412 Member ✭✭✭✭

    The new system team was formed new because they want to put more effort into balance. Show patience and wait what comes for next balance patch after that you can complain.

  • @InsaneQR.7412 said:
    The new system team was formed new because they want to put more effort into balance. Show patience and wait what comes for next balance patch after that you can complain.

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/52281/balance-passes#latest
    The system's team has been around since the start of the year. They only announced it recently..

  • The number of changes in the last patch was okay, when they double the frequency of balance patches.
    But atm. they go slowly forward, that's okay i think.
    We saw some good reworks and some... uhm, not so good. But we SAW changes. My hope is back!

  • InsaneQR.7412InsaneQR.7412 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @eagles.6380 said:

    @InsaneQR.7412 said:
    The new system team was formed new because they want to put more effort into balance. Show patience and wait what comes for next balance patch after that you can complain.

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/52281/balance-passes#latest
    The system's team has been around since the start of the year. They only announced it recently..

    The patches of this year was the best we had to be honest. Several reworks and changes to old skills and new reworks are comming up.
    Problems with PoF specs were created on PoF launch and still remain they arent as easy to balance while they try to improve core specs and old especs. All of this needs huge amounts of testing and if they would nerf everything into the ground the rage quit would be real.

  • ZeftheWicked.3076ZeftheWicked.3076 Member ✭✭✭✭

    To be fair - as for recent patch dps reaper is stronger then scourge, and as for guard it's meta build is dragon hunter when it comes to raids.

    PvP wise...yeah, there's nothing "hot" going on there, least in terms of meta efficiency..

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭

    If you think out of all the combinations available, Anet can ensure 'balance' across all classes and elite specs, you are dreaming. If you think this is bad, wait til we get more especs. It' onyl gets worse.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • DeceiverX.8361DeceiverX.8361 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Design classes and skills for PvP/WvW.
    Design PvE encounters to challenge these builds and let them play to their strength and uniqueness.
    Tweak respective modes and encounters.

    It feels like we're making encounters, designing professions around them, and then struggling to find out ways to make things not broken in the PvP modes afterwards when the problems are on the conceptual level.

    Things need major overhauls and huge game-wide nerfs. Otherwise it's just endless hole-plugging.

    You sure that Sniper idea is as good as you thought it was gonna be?
    Because I think my original idea is better.
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  • Rufo.3716Rufo.3716 Member ✭✭✭

    Systems team has done nothing but make balance worse. For a thing that was supposed to be making things so much better I'd say it's a huge failure. They randomly change things that don't need changing, then make the strong stronger and make the weak weaker. Then they decide that perma stealthing thieves are a good idea in PvP and then don't bother to do anything about that. I could go on and on but I just don't have that much time to go on about the baffling decisions they make. Really wish they would explain the thinking behind them. I'm mostly a PvP player and for the first time I'm ready to quit solely because of balance. And I've talked to a number of people who have tried the game and quit just because they can immediately see the balance between professions in this game is completely out of whack. Either you play the current FOTM or you have no fun.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 8, 2018

    This is just another serious misunderstanding of what balance IN GW2 means. Anet defines it and it's nothing close to equivalent performance between classes you see in other games because of how the game is designed. Keep carrying your WoW baggage in GW2 and it can only disappoint you.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • It sells the next expansion or gives people that extra kick to pay to stay competitive.

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @eagles.6380 said:
    Across all game modes the majority of POF spec's absolutely dominate HOT spec's in all aspects of the game,

    Holosmith dominates scrapper in fractals and raids and pvp
    Spellbreaker dominates berserkers in fractals raids, pvp and wvw
    Scourge dominates reaper in fractals, raids, pvp and wvw
    Firebrand dominates dragonhunter in fractals, raids, pvp and wvw
    Weaver dominates tempest in fractals, raids, pvp and wvw

    There are maybe two exceptions to this list with chrono dominating mirage in terms of fractals and raids with boon share, and druid being used as a support spec in fractals and raids, and you could say daredevil also but this is a pvp spec that see's little use in fractals, almost non existent in raids.

    Why do the PoF specs dominate so hard and why are the HoT specs being left behind..

    PvE, only tempest and scrapper do not perform well. PvP though is a different story.

  • sokeenoppa.5384sokeenoppa.5384 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Raids:
    Berserker > spellbreaker
    Reaper 30872dps, scourge 28558 dps
    Dragonhunter 34482 dps, firebrand 31740 dps
    Tempest still does 34k dps with lot better sustain than weaver

    I'll have two number 9s, a number 9 large, a number 6 with extra dip, a number 7, two number 45s, one with cheese, and a large soda.

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @eagles.6380 said:
    Holosmith dominates scrapper in fractals and raids and pvp

    Scrapper is a pvp spec, what do you expect?

    @eagles.6380 said:
    Spellbreaker dominates berserkers in fractals raids, pvp and wvw

    Actually in PvE core warrior, berserker and spellbreaker variants are all used. That's better balance than any other class has, really.

    @eagles.6380 said:
    Scourge dominates reaper in fractals, raids, pvp and wvw

    Power reaper just got buffed. People will need some time to adjust, although I must say I'm not sure if the buff was enough.

    @eagles.6380 said:
    Firebrand dominates dragonhunter in fractals, raids, pvp and wvw

    Wrong. In PvE DH is the better and far more popular damage dealer.

    @eagles.6380 said:
    Weaver dominates tempest in fractals, raids, pvp and wvw

    That used to be the case, but the recent changes to Air made Tempest a viable damage dealer again, and even a preferred option in some cases. It also remains the far better support.

  • @Feanor.2358 said:

    @eagles.6380 said:
    Holosmith dominates scrapper in fractals and raids and pvp

    Scrapper is a pvp spec, what do you expect?

    iF scrapper is a pvp spec, it's failing 9 time out of 10, against a holosmith in pvp

    @eagles.6380 said:
    Spellbreaker dominates berserkers in fractals raids, pvp and wvw

    Actually in PvE core warrior, berserker and spellbreaker variants are all used. That's better balance than any other class has, really.

    Well its used as much as spellbreaker? because pretty much every warrior i encounter in game is a spellbreaker.. It has more sustain and higher damage?

    @eagles.6380 said:

    Scourge dominates reaper in fractals, raids, pvp and wvw

    Power reaper just got buffed. People will need some time to adjust, although I must say I'm not sure if the buff was enough.

    Reaper did take a decent buff, but im not sure if it's enough, scourge still dominate it in most game modes, although i have been seeing more reapers in pvp

    @eagles.6380 said:
    Firebrand dominates dragonhunter in fractals, raids, pvp and wvw

    Wrong. In PvE DH is the better and far more popular damage dealer.

    Maybe but DH is only decent in certain fractals/raids (end game content), it needs big buffs to live up to firebrand in wvw and pvp, hell i think if if you play a damage firebrand in pvp you beat a DH. At the moment DH is nowhere near as good as any pvp spec and needs some changes to become effective in wvw and pvp in particular

    @eagles.6380 said:
    Weaver dominates tempest in fractals, raids, pvp and wvw

    That used to be the case, but the recent changes to Air made Tempest a viable damage dealer again, and even a preferred option in some cases. It also remains the far better support.

    Weaver still dominates it, still has more damage. It may have somewhat of a role in pve as a support, but in wvw and pvp it is sill useless.

    To summarise, do you think i am wrong and HoT specs are holding their own against PoF specs?

  • Tails.9372Tails.9372 Member ✭✭✭✭

    The balance is bad but I can deal with something not being top tier as long as its components are at least well designed and overall functioning. If something fails at a basic level and not because its gone out of fashion then I expect them to fix the issue without destroying the core of the gameplay. Them nerfing mediocre or even things with bad performance even further without any apparent reason however is absolutely disgusting.

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @eagles.6380 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @eagles.6380 said:
    Holosmith dominates scrapper in fractals and raids and pvp

    Scrapper is a pvp spec, what do you expect?

    iF scrapper is a pvp spec, it's failing 9 time out of 10, against a holosmith in pvp

    Now thats' an actual issue, then.

    @eagles.6380 said:

    @eagles.6380 said:
    Spellbreaker dominates berserkers in fractals raids, pvp and wvw

    Actually in PvE core warrior, berserker and spellbreaker variants are all used. That's better balance than any other class has, really.

    Well its used as much as spellbreaker? because pretty much every warrior i encounter in game is a spellbreaker.. It has more sustain and higher damage?

    Yes. In fractals core warrior is used any time over spellbreaker when boonstrip isn't required, because it does higher damage. In raids berserker is generally preferred, again, since the typical usage yields more damage from it. Sustain is irrelevant in PvE - you have healers to take care of that.

    @eagles.6380 said:

    @eagles.6380 said:
    Firebrand dominates dragonhunter in fractals, raids, pvp and wvw

    Wrong. In PvE DH is the better and far more popular damage dealer.

    Maybe but DH is only decent in certain fractals/raids (end game content), it needs big buffs to live up to firebrand in wvw and pvp, hell i think if if you play a damage firebrand in pvp you beat a DH. At the moment DH is nowhere near as good as any pvp spec and needs some changes to become effective in wvw and pvp in particular

    DH is preferred as a dps everywhere in the PvE end-game content. Firebrand used to have sick damage, but then got nerfed heavily and remained underperforming since, leaving DH as the only damage option for guards for a long time. Curiously enough, a core guard damage build has emerged lately, at least offering some alternative.

    @eagles.6380 said:

    @eagles.6380 said:
    Weaver dominates tempest in fractals, raids, pvp and wvw

    That used to be the case, but the recent changes to Air made Tempest a viable damage dealer again, and even a preferred option in some cases. It also remains the far better support.

    Weaver still dominates it, still has more damage. It may have somewhat of a role in pve as a support, but in wvw and pvp it is sill useless.

    In PvE Weaver is still generally better, mostly due to the slightly overperforming Sword build. But Tempest holds its ground with a higher damage burst, making it an actually better option for fights with short phases. It also has some minor support, both on the offensive (Static Charge) and defensive (Gale Song for instance) sides. I admit In WvW I still go with weaver, since Tempest gives nothing for my typical use (backline).

    @eagles.6380 said:
    To summarise, do you think i am wrong and HoT specs are holding their own against PoF specs?

    For those that overlap in function there will always be one being (slightly) better than another. But judging by the direction of the balance changes, ANet are trying to give each spec an edge somewhere. This is much harder to do in pvp modes, of course, as unlike PvE you cannot know in advance how fast a fight will end for instance. So I can agree there's a problem on the pvp side.

  • RedShark.9548RedShark.9548 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @starlinvf.1358 said:
    The short answer is Yes....... thats what happens when your system strongly rewards damage output, and you have builds designed around dealing damage. Same thing happened during HOT; all the damage/combat oriented builds dominated the others. Plus Temptest; because Tempest was just OP. :P

    if that was the case then berserker warrior would dominate spb in dmg, since spb is supposed to be the utilluty boon ripping pvp spec, but it even outdamages berserker in terms of power dmg.

    pof specs are so much better because of powercreep and no adjusting of existing specs, evil ppl would say this is just because they want ppl to buy the next expansion because tey have to if they want to keep up

  • Hyper Cutter.9376Hyper Cutter.9376 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @otto.5684 said:
    PvE, only tempest and scrapper do not perform well. PvP though is a different story.

    Also scrapper was never good in PVE, it was entirely designed for PVP and it shows. Then it was nerfed into the ground for being too good at its job in PVE.

    Dragonhunter suffered a similar fate because the average PVPer is too stupid to understand a concept like "traps are bad, don't stand in them".

    Actually, most of the HoT specs suffered from being heavily nerfed due to PVP whining, now that I think about it. That needs to be factored into the equation here.

  • RabbitUp.8294RabbitUp.8294 Member ✭✭✭

    @eagles.6380 said:
    Across all game modes the majority of POF spec's absolutely dominate HOT spec's in all aspects of the game,

    Holosmith dominates scrapper in fractals and raids and pvp
    Spellbreaker dominates berserkers in fractals raids, pvp and wvw
    Scourge dominates reaper in fractals, raids, pvp and wvw
    Firebrand dominates dragonhunter in fractals, raids, pvp and wvw
    Weaver dominates tempest in fractals, raids, pvp and wvw

    There are maybe two exceptions to this list with chrono dominating mirage in terms of fractals and raids with boon share, and druid being used as a support spec in fractals and raids, and you could say daredevil also but this is a pvp spec that see's little use in fractals, almost non existent in raids.

    Why do the PoF specs dominate so hard and why are the HoT specs being left behind..

    Besides the fact that things are not as absolute as you make them seem, why are you comparing specs with one another when they fulfil different roles? The fact that both are on the same base class doesn't mean anything.

    Chrono for example, in no way competes with mirage. Mirage could do the most damage in the game, and chrono would still be meta, because mirage competes with other dps builds, and chrono competes with boon supports.

    Sure, I picked one of the more extreme examples, but even specs like reaper and scourge have different functions. Reaper in pvp/wvw played as a frontline bruiser, while scourge is a midrange area controller with some group support. Reaper competes with holosmith much more than it does with scourge.

    And even in pve where it's all about that dps, specs that can play as dps are much more balanced than you believe. Base warrior, berserker and Sb all see a lot of play; SB is only 500dps higher according to the latest benchmarks, while berserker is better at carrying banners as it suffers a smaller dps loss. Guardian is similar with core and both specs being viable, and DH being the more popular of the two. For thief, DD and DE are very close in terms of dps, and DD has its own niche with the stolen skills in raids. Ranger has only 1 dps spec, as druid was never good at damage even before PoF, yet both specs are played and have their role. Tempest was buffed and can now compete with weaver in damage, and even then tempest is also played as support, which you ignore in your comparisons. Chrono support is as meta as ever, and can dps with both specs.

    So it seems to be like things are much better than you describe them, at least in pve. The exceptions are revenant, engineer and necromancer, but all 3 of those had problems since HoT. Scrapper never had good damage in pve and base engineer was used instead; condi engi remains the same while holo added a power build. Herald and revenan have been in a bad spot for almost all of PoF, so it's not that renegade outshines but that it added the class to the map again. As for necro, reaper failed to be the power spec it was intended to be, and scourge took the crown of dedicated condi spec; yes, reaper needs help, and it has been getting it patch after patch, even if it's not there yet.

    And that's only looking at dps, as I said already. All specs have their own unique strengths and weaknesses with set them apart in other manners and depending on what game mode you play. This is what balanced is supposed to be about, not crying because one spec is more meta than the other.

  • @RabbitUp.8294 said:

    @eagles.6380 said:
    Across all game modes the majority of POF spec's absolutely dominate HOT spec's in all aspects of the game,

    Holosmith dominates scrapper in fractals and raids and pvp
    Spellbreaker dominates berserkers in fractals raids, pvp and wvw
    Scourge dominates reaper in fractals, raids, pvp and wvw
    Firebrand dominates dragonhunter in fractals, raids, pvp and wvw
    Weaver dominates tempest in fractals, raids, pvp and wvw

    There are maybe two exceptions to this list with chrono dominating mirage in terms of fractals and raids with boon share, and druid being used as a support spec in fractals and raids, and you could say daredevil also but this is a pvp spec that see's little use in fractals, almost non existent in raids.

    Why do the PoF specs dominate so hard and why are the HoT specs being left behind..

    Besides the fact that things are not as absolute as you make them seem, why are you comparing specs with one another when they fulfil different roles? The fact that both are on the same base class doesn't mean anything.

    Chrono for example, in no way competes with mirage. Mirage could do the most damage in the game, and chrono would still be meta, because mirage competes with other dps builds, and chrono competes with boon supports.

    Sure, I picked one of the more extreme examples, but even specs like reaper and scourge have different functions. Reaper in pvp/wvw played as a frontline bruiser, while scourge is a midrange area controller with some group support. Reaper competes with holosmith much more than it does with scourge.

    And even in pve where it's all about that dps, specs that can play as dps are much more balanced than you believe. Base warrior, berserker and Sb all see a lot of play; SB is only 500dps higher according to the latest benchmarks, while berserker is better at carrying banners as it suffers a smaller dps loss. Guardian is similar with core and both specs being viable, and DH being the more popular of the two. For thief, DD and DE are very close in terms of dps, and DD has its own niche with the stolen skills in raids. Ranger has only 1 dps spec, as druid was never good at damage even before PoF, yet both specs are played and have their role. Tempest was buffed and can now compete with weaver in damage, and even then tempest is also played as support, which you ignore in your comparisons. Chrono support is as meta as ever, and can dps with both specs.

    So it seems to be like things are much better than you describe them, at least in pve. The exceptions are revenant, engineer and necromancer, but all 3 of those had problems since HoT. Scrapper never had good damage in pve and base engineer was used instead; condi engi remains the same while holo added a power build. Herald and revenan have been in a bad spot for almost all of PoF, so it's not that renegade outshines but that it added the class to the map again. As for necro, reaper failed to be the power spec it was intended to be, and scourge took the crown of dedicated condi spec; yes, reaper needs help, and it has been getting it patch after patch, even if it's not there yet.

    And that's only looking at dps, as I said already. All specs have their own unique strengths and weaknesses with set them apart in other manners and depending on what game mode you play. This is what balanced is supposed to be about, not crying because one spec is more meta than the other.

    Though I disagree with 1 or 2 points, I appreciate your post. You summed up a lot of truths very well.

    Unfortunately until people stop viewing SC resources as The Bible, people will still complain about a lack of balance.
    Balance is an issue in certain areas, similar to where you mentioned, but it certainly isn’t as terrible as it has been. But nobody will agree to this unless their main is slightly better each patch.

  • ButcherofMalakir.4067ButcherofMalakir.4067 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 10, 2018

    @eagles.6380 said:
    Across all game modes the majority of POF spec's absolutely dominate HOT spec's in all aspects of the game,

    Holosmith dominates scrapper in fractals and raids and pvp
    Spellbreaker dominates berserkers in fractals raids, pvp and wvw
    Scourge dominates reaper in fractals, raids, pvp and wvw
    Firebrand dominates dragonhunter in fractals, raids, pvp and wvw
    Weaver dominates tempest in fractals, raids, pvp and wvw

    There are maybe two exceptions to this list with chrono dominating mirage in terms of fractals and raids with boon share, and druid being used as a support spec in fractals and raids, and you could say daredevil also but this is a pvp spec that see's little use in fractals, almost non existent in raids.

    Why do the PoF specs dominate so hard and why are the HoT specs being left behind..

    Spellbreaker is useful for only 1 boss in raids, elsewhere berzerker wins.
    If you see a guardian in raids its 90 percent of time DH

    EDIT:
    raid meta
    warrior: berzerker wins here (or core warrior, spellbreaker only on 1 boss) (hot)
    guardian: Not that good but dh/core can be taken as dps options with resonable burst (hot)
    revenant: Renegade wins here (pof)
    ENG: holo wins here (pof)
    ranger: both very good, druid is more needed but soulbeast can be both decent condi and good power dps (hot)
    thief: deadeye wins but daredevil is also part of the meta for some bosses (pof)
    ele: both meta now but weaver takes this one (pof)
    necro: both in rough spot right now but scourge takes this one (pof)
    mesmer: Both are meta in raids but chrono is meta on all bosses (hot)

    I see 4:5

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