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Will anything happen to make Ascalon great again?


Imba.9451

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@"kasoki.5180" said:Going a bit offtopic here. But I have a question that bothered me always. I have played GW1 only a little so never really experienced story of Charr invasion. My question is, why was Ascalon given to Iron Legion? Is this ever explained? If i understood correctly, back when humans took Ascalon, Charr were ruled by Khan- Ur, and only later fragmented into High Legions. This means that Ascalon cant be really taken as "historic" Iron Legion territory.

Also, since Capital of Iron Legion was erected only after Ascalon fell, do we know status of Iron Legion in land of other Charr? Like is there some historic iron Legion capital city outside of present Ascalon?

The Iron Legion claim it by right of perseverance more then anything else, when the Charr started pushing south towards Ebonhawke the other two Legions started having second thoughts in the face of mounting casualties. They figured it wasn't really worth it, and so they backed out of the war. The Iron Legion remained, in no small part due to the fact they wanted to prove they could break anything as the local siegemasters.

In context this makes the Blood Legions warmongering slightly hilarious. Ash and Blood warbands remained behind, but by and large they were only a fraction of the force trying to take Ebonhawke. So Ruinbringers essentially trying to resume a war that he had, relatively, little to do with.

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@"Loesh.4697" said:The Iron Legion claim it by right of perseverance more then anything else, when the Charr started pushing south towards Ebonhawke the other two Legions started having second thoughts in the face of mounting casualties. They figured it wasn't really worth it, and so they backed out of the war. The Iron Legion remained, in no small part due to the fact they wanted to prove they could break anything as the local siegemasters.I don't recall this at all, got a source?

As far as I remember, no reason was ever given for why Iron took over Ascalon, or where their lands were prior to. Though, hypothetically, considering that the conquest of Ascalon happened almost simultaneously with the fall of the Flame Legion it is possible that there was no "territory specifically for X Legion" before the conquest of Ascalon, and Iron simply got dibs on it while Ash and Blood got dibs on older territory.

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@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@"Loesh.4697" said:The Iron Legion claim it by right of perseverance more then anything else, when the Charr started pushing south towards Ebonhawke the other two Legions started having second thoughts in the face of mounting casualties. They figured it wasn't really worth it, and so they backed out of the war. The Iron Legion remained, in no small part due to the fact they wanted to prove they could break anything as the local siegemasters.I don't recall this at all, got a source?

As far as I remember, no reason was ever given for why Iron took over Ascalon, or where their lands were prior to. Though, hypothetically, considering that the conquest of Ascalon happened almost simultaneously with the fall of the Flame Legion it is possible that there was no "territory specifically for X Legion" before the conquest of Ascalon, and Iron simply got dibs on it while Ash and Blood got dibs on older territory.

I should of said that I was inferring that the Iron Legion got it for that reason, my bad. For the source on the Iron Legion being principally responsible for the sieges I read it on the 'Stronghold of Ebonhawke' page of the GW2 wiki. However I saw no citation for this, so i'm not sure if there's any text within the game to back that up or if this is the same sort of situation as the Dervish 'lore' in the GW1 wiki.

In general I should be wary of what I pick up from the Wiki's these days, i'm starting to realize they are actually pretty poorly maintained.

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@"draxynnic.3719" said:Another possibility is that the Khan-Ur assigned territories to the Imperators before his death, and Ascalon was assigned to the Iron Imperator.Now I imagine the Khan-Ur as a mixture of Genghis Khan and Charlemagne.Maybe we'll get a glimpse of the Khan-Ur and his sons in a fractal, where human assassins sow discord between he imperators and finally kill the ruler over charrkind. I wonder how the visual design would be.I mean, the Khan-Ur is to the charr, what King Doric is to humanity. They even were contemporaries. Doric ascending to the Kingdom of Orr in 100 BE, some time after the Khan-Ur unified the charr tribes.I imagine the Gold Imperator to be the archetypical shaman, wearing more jewelry than actual armor.The Iron Impetator would be quite the opposite, being the master of the forge, he'd wear what the charr in 100 BE considered state of the art weapons and armor.The Imperator of Blood might be the burliest and most menacing warrior around.Meanwhile, the Ash Imperator being master of scouting tracking and sneaking would be hard to percieve, if you don't expect him.Finally the Khan-Ur himself. His signature weapon being the Claw, shows, that he must have been fond of his four sons, or at least intended for them to rule after his passing. Like Charlemagne, he died before he could organize his succession, leading to a charr succession crisis/civil war, which allowed the humans to establish the Kingdom of Ascalon.

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@Castigator.3470 said:As for your hatred of Legion society, give it time. In 250 years the charr went from a tribal empire to a military dictatorship. In order for their government to change, their society has to evolve further. Don't forget that the societal and cultural development in central Tyria is still somewhere along the lines of the 17th century, which is funny because in Kryta absolute monarchy seems to be the new thing, after the queen was basically a figurehead of the Ministry (Will Kryta become "La grande nation" of Tyria?).Several things here. The current political situation of Kryta cannot be regarded as the norm. We can't say that it is becoming an absolute monarchy either. We know that the Krytan crown exercised more power in comparison with Queen Jennah up til now. She inherited the throne before she was of age to ascend and exercise its authority which required the Ministry to act in capacity as a Regent Court until that time. There were also ministers, particularly under the leadership of Beetlestone, who were reluctant to give up that regency. Many of these same ministers have been later linked with (White Mantle) efforts to undermine the authority of the crown, which sowed tremendous distrust between the Ministry, the Seraph, and the Crown and the Shining Blade. But this is a relatively small window of time of Queen Jennah as a figurehead, basically just six years. So in some regards, Kryta's rulership under Queen Jennah represents a restoration of what it was rather than a "new thing." But the White Mantle infiltration and siege also necessitated Queen Jennah to declare martial law and lock down the Ministry until there was time to sort "friend and foe" amidst the crisis. We have not received much follow-up on that plotline, much as it took awhile before returning back to the Pale Tree threat. Given the Queen's Jubilee that some state of normalcy has returned, but the details remain undisclosed. I suspect that Queen Jennah would actually favor the establishment of a House of Commons meant to counterbalance the Ministry (aka House of Lords) but I doubt that ArenaNet will ever delve into any major shake-up of how Kryta's government is structured.

Dayol Stormwatcher is making advances into the field of electricity. (Will the Black Citadel have electrical light before other cities?)Asuran magitech and sylvari biotech mostly serve the same function though. So that's a charr "innovation" meant to mostly solve an already solvable problem through a non-magical way that is more palpable for charr culture.

@Castigator.3470 said:Like Charlemagne, he died before he could organize his succession, leading to a charr succession crisis/civil war, which allowed the humans to establish the Kingdom of Ascalon.Charlemagne did mostly organize his succession, and he did it in typical Frankish fashion: he divided it (fairly) evenly among his sons, with Louis the Pious receiving the lion's share. The problem is that this Frankish inheritance practice is not sustainable when it comes to maintaining empires and kingdoms, which comes to a head with Charlemagne's three grandsons, the sons of Louis the Pious, which is more applicable to what you describe.

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@"Genesis.8572" said:Charlemagne did mostly organize his succession, and he did it in typical Frankish fashion: he divided it (fairly) evenly among his sons, with Louis the Pious receiving the lion's share. The problem is that this Frankish inheritance practice is not sustainable when it comes to maintaining empires and kingdoms, which comes to a head with Charlemagne's three grandsons, the sons of Louis the Pious, which is more applicable to what you describe.Yeah, Karl did a better job at organizing succession than the Khan-Ur, who likely didn't anticipate his death.Frankish succession is worse than the later ottonian elective empire. Which leads to the question how the Legions handle succession.

It is established that only a descendant of the Khan-Ur can become imperator, but if the Khan-Ur had a comparable amount of concubines to Genghis Khan, and if his sons continued that practise, we know Flame Legion continues this until present day, that figure is likely to include a lot of cubs, maybe even a significant percentage of all modern charr. Especially if just being loosely related counts, which would reduce this requirement to a mere formality, provided you're not a cub of unknown parentage.The other requirement seems to be, that a prospective Imperator should be a Tribune. And from Ulma Ripleather we hear, that there's already contenders for the next Iron Imperator.

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I think my primary problem with Charr society when it comes to all that is that yes, it is possible for Charr society to advance to something that exists in camaraderie with the other races but realistically I don't think that would occur. Now that's not to say it won't happen without a drop of blood spilled, because much like the Dragons Anet are the writers and they ultimately decide how things play out. But I would imagine that, expanding on the historical examples you just gave, it would probably rip Charr society apart to do something like that. Let's not mince words, the Charr leadership is largely composed of fascists, They don't fit every checkmark of fascism, but their highly millitent, indoctrinated, and controlled society ticks most of the checkboxes for all intents and purposes.

That includes Smodur, and he's the progressive one. But if you go through the Black Citadel, see how people have been separated in the Gladiums Canton, talk to folks about deserter executions, how humans must always be regarded as the enemy, and the heavy historical revisionism, it's hard not to make the comparison. The propaganda is all over the place, humans are at once pathetic weaklings incapable of defending themselves but also violent oppressors and savages that Charr society is struggling for freedom from. It's replaced religion for all intents and purposes with a faith in the state, the legions, and whatever they happen to decide they want to do at the moment because they're on the good side of history. Genocide is celebrated, but also played down as to not elicit too much revulsion but to still show how the Charr Legions are conquering heroes. It's not actually religious and much like I said in another thread, behaving like a religion and actually being a religion are very different things, and it kind of shows in the comedic levels of sociopathy present within this society. Everyone above you is just an obstacle, a stepping stone to greatness, it's done in service to the state but in large part it's also done in service to oneself and that creates a massive disconnect within that society.

That kind of nation can't have a peaceful transition.

The level of devotion hammered into the Charr towards their leaders and ancestors, the emphasis on their innate superiority to other races, and the interchangeability of leaders basically means they live in a tyranny by majority. The problem is that this mentality is no longer just in the head of the state, it's not just an issue with Charr visionaries, it's ingrained in the populace. Sure you will have dissenters but they would be few and far between, they might try and form some kind of resistance but the nation is so saturated at this point that the only way to shift their society to a positive outcome is to basically cause so much widespread devastation that the society as a whole would collapse in on itself. Someone who, in this situation, would be working towards a Charr society compatible with the rest of Tyria would be decried as a traitor by his peers aiming for the downfall of the Charr empire because honestly he probably would be.

I imagine if Anet ever tackled the subject it would be handled with considerably less drama then all that, it would most likely just handwave the massive social change it would cause.

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@"Castigator.3470" said:What I do find interesting, relating to some of the points that you raise in this post, is that the charr legions seem to acknowledge, even if reluctantly, that the idea of the Charr Khanate is fundamentally dead. The three playable legions remain at war with one of their sibling legions, so the idea that the four legions could be united under the Khan-Ur is far-fetched at this point. It's certainly possible that an heir for the Flame Imperator could be found among the Olmakhan, but cultural association with the Flame Legion is taboo.

Smodur has possession of the Claw of the Khan-Ur, and he could potentially make a claim of Khan-Ur over Blood and Ash, but he has not claimed the mantle. Instead, it seems more symbolic of Iron Legion's future prospects under Smodur. Smodur is regarded as one of the most progressive charr, but what I suspect is behind this sentiment is that Smodur is regarded as the most "human" of the charr in that he wants to position himself as the legitimate "king" of Ascalon. He wants to be perceived by non-charr as an equal and legitimate successor to the human kingdom of Ascalon that previously stood there. By establishing a treaty with humanity that acknowledges his claim over Ascalon and possessing the Claw of the Khan-Ur, Smodur is basically creating an Iron Legion that could potentially stand on its own without relying on either Blood or Ash. Imagine the possibility, for example, of the Iron Legion looking to a military alliance with the humans of Kryta rather than a volatile Blood Legion. In this respect, Smodur appears to be contemplating what Iron Legion-held Ascalon would look like in a modern post-Khan-Ur world.

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I see your issue, but I don't see it that way precisely because the charr state is organized the way it is.People in our world are taught by their own teachers, who have their own biases, that bottom up revolutions are the only way for society to change, that all reforms are doomed from the outset and the only lasting change is radical change.Which is untrue. There are ample examples of societies being changed by their leaders, not through violent radical change, but gradual reform. The Human-Charr peace treaty didn't exactly have what you call public approval. But the Legions are not a democracy.If you want change and you're at the bottom of the chain of command, there is nothing you can do.If you want something to change and you're a Legionnaire, you can tell your warband to clean their act.If you're a Centurion, tell your Legionnaires you have a standing order.Tribunes can do the same to Centurions.And finally, an Imperator has the authority to make laws.Smodur is the progressive today, and I bet he is preparing Tribune Kindleshot to take his place, thus ensuring consistency even after he dies.In german schools our teachers call this "revolution from above" usually scoffing at the concept, but in the framework of legion society, the rulers hold societal initiative. Which is also true for real world monarchies, where rulers set the societal standards. See the introduction of the Potato into Brandenburg by Frederick II.As for telling the charr they are not allowed to be proud of their history? A people that is not proud in its heritage dies, simple as that.

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@"Castigator.3470" said:I see your issue, but I don't see it that way precisely because the charr state is organized the way it is.People in our world are taught by their own teachers, who have their own biases, that bottom up revolutions are the only way for society to change, that all reforms are doomed from the outset and the only lasting change is radical change.Which is untrue. There are ample examples of societies being changed by their leaders, not through violent radical change, but gradual reform. The Human-Charr peace treaty didn't exactly have what you call public approval. But the Legions are not a democracy.If you want change and you're at the bottom of the chain of command, there is nothing you can do.If you want something to change and you're a Legionnaire, you can tell your warband to clean their act.If you're a Centurion, tell your Legionnaires you have a standing order.Tribunes can do the same to Centurions.And finally, an Imperator has the authority to make laws.Smodur is the progressive today, and I bet he is preparing Tribune Kindleshot to take his place, thus ensuring consistency even after he dies.In german schools our teachers call this "revolution from above" usually scoffing at the concept, but in the framework of legion society, the rulers hold societal initiative. Which is also true for real world monarchies, where rulers set the societal standards. See the introduction of the Potato into Brandenburg by Frederick II.As for telling the charr they are not allowed to be proud of their history? A people that is not proud in its heritage dies, simple as that.

The reason why is, ironically for something you pointed out earlier. Charr are a modernizing society, but they are going down one particular mode of modernization. It's a fascist society, and fascism is something that is relatively new to our world. Some people will throw out names like Napoleon as a Fascist without really appreciating the difference between what a fascist is and what is merely a very narcissistic autocrat. Now our world is plagued with all sorts of horrors and i'm not going to sit here and tell anyone that Fascism is uniquely evil, but it is uniquely self destructive. We don't have a lot of samplings for this sort of thing because the system is that new, but it's effects are drastic.

Taking your society in this direction, which is to restructure your economy, your military, your traditions, and to even destroy your family unit in order to support a state of perpetual war has drastic consequences on a nation.Your country becomes like a junkie, it needs a constant high of war, and it needs a continuous supply of wins to support it's rapid growth. Worse revolution from above is even more impossible in Charr society because it's fascism is inverted. It goes from the top and all the way down, even someone like Smodur is likely...well not likely, the Ash Legion states it outright...doing this for a power play, there's no real commitment to cultural change or a society that seeks to actually understand others except in the most surface level possible. It is as I said, a Tyranny by Majority, you actually have to dismantle the Charr warmachine for their to be tangible change and that's not gonna happen without blood.

If Smodur wants consistency, it's just for another wave of pragmatists. This goes beyond being proud of ones heritage, it transfers into a state of idolizing everyone who came before as doing no wrong, it's state sanctioned and endorsed madness.

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@"kasoki.5180" said:Going a bit offtopic here. But I have a question that bothered me always. I have played GW1 only a little so never really experienced story of Charr invasion. My question is, why was Ascalon given to Iron Legion? Is this ever explained? If i understood correctly, back when humans took Ascalon, Charr were ruled by Khan- Ur, and only later fragmented into High Legions. This means that Ascalon cant be really taken as "historic" Iron Legion territory.

It has been! Iron got Ascalon for the part they played in the revolution. Why, exactly, their contributions were more important than the others isn't entirely clear, but there are a couple of points where Iron's backing seems to have been pivotal in ways that Blood's wasn't, and some sources seem to suggest that Iron's imperator was the secondary leader of the revolution, behind Kalla.

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@Loesh.4697 said:That kind of nation can't have a peaceful transition.

Spain managed it in the transition away from Francoism. That was pretty much a case of the 'change from the top' that Castigator was talking about.

A lot depends on motivation. Smodur wanted the Claw to solidify his power base, but there are two basic motivations to want power within a nation: to strengthen yourself, or to strengthen the nation. If Smodur's motivation is more towards the latter, it's entirely possible that he's recognised that the historical charr way of living is unsustainable and he's gathering power so that he can push the Iron Legion through such a transition. (While what he gets out of doing so is essentially recognition from the historians of the future.)

It's worth noting that the Iron Legion's industry means that they have a clear alternative way of sustaining themselves that not only benefits from, but requires maintaining good relations with their neighbours: namely, exporting the products of their industry. The Ash Legion, in turn, seems to have decent potential to turn to mercantile arrangements (Evon Gnashblade is Ash Legion, for instance). Blood seems to be the legion that has the least potential to transition into a less militaristic outlook on life, which possibly goes some way to expanding why Smodur and Malice were in favour of the treaty, while Bangar is against it.

@Genesis.8572 said:Imagine the possibility, for example, of the Iron Legion looking to a military alliance with the humans of Kryta rather than a volatile Blood Legion. In this respect, Smodur appears to be contemplating what Iron Legion-held Ascalon would look like in a modern post-Khan-Ur world.

Honestly, I think this is what Smodur is going for. The negotiations have been going on for a while now despite Smodur having already made significant territorial concessions pretty early on in the negotiation process, so it's likely that the ongoing negotiations are for something a bit deeper than agreeing on borders and to stop fighting.

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@"draxynnic.3719" said:

Honestly, I think this is what Smodur is going for. The negotiations have been going on for a while now despite Smodur having already made significant territorial concessions pretty early on in the negotiation process, so it's likely that the ongoing negotiations are for something a bit deeper than agreeing on borders and to stop fighting.

It's a minor thing, but according to the recent weapon current event/quest chain, they've finally gotten around to signing the 'Treaty of Ebonhawke'. Not as much fanfare as I would've liked, but... not the first time they've realized they've left a thread hanging too long and cleared it out of the way, and it is about time we got out of negotiation limbo.

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@Aaron Ansari.1604 said:

@"draxynnic.3719" said:

Honestly, I think this is what Smodur is going for. The negotiations have been going on for a while now despite Smodur having already made significant territorial concessions pretty early on in the negotiation process, so it's likely that the ongoing negotiations are for something a bit deeper than agreeing on borders and to stop fighting.

It's a minor thing, but according to the recent weapon current event/quest chain,
Not as much fanfare as I would've liked, but... not the first time they've realized they've left a thread hanging too long and cleared it out of the way, and it
is
about time we got out of negotiation limbo.

That's both disappointing and interesting at the same time. Reading that line never triggered that realization for me; guess my mind kept thinking it meant the cease fire for treaty negotiations.

It is quite a shame they seem incapable or unwilling of handling multiple plots at once, though. I feel that something as politically major as treaty signing should have been mentioned, such as during The Head of the Snake.

I guess Nylia Steelpaw's presence at Lake Doric (along with other Sentinels - though why Sentinels I still dunno) would be a heavy handed hint to this, especially with the line "The White Mantle can't be allowed to ruin everything our races have built together. This is our fight too." Which suggests that there's an official agreement for the two races and cooperative development has become a thing. But afaik, it never got mentioned that the treaty was actually signed, and that only hints at cooperative development, and might not even mean such.

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@Aaron Ansari.1604 said:

@"draxynnic.3719" said:

Honestly, I think this is what Smodur is going for. The negotiations have been going on for a while now despite Smodur having already made significant territorial concessions pretty early on in the negotiation process, so it's likely that the ongoing negotiations are for something a bit deeper than agreeing on borders and to stop fighting.

It's a minor thing, but according to the recent weapon current event/quest chain,
Not as much fanfare as I would've liked, but... not the first time they've realized they've left a thread hanging too long and cleared it out of the way, and it
is
about time we got out of negotiation limbo.

Ah, yes. I saw that, now that you mention it, but I think I brushed it off as being from the PC's perspective (who cares that the ceasefire treaty was signed, and negotiations beyond that are Somebody Else's Problem) rather than being a strong indication that the negotiations have concluded.

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So basically, the way it looks now, the only way this whole Ascalon-Situation can be solved without some magical ghost-extermination-device, ist to let the Ascalonian ghosts gain conscience, as I doubt story will drift towards political issues.Personally, I find that regrettable. There are only so many all-mighty being to be slain before you get used to it.

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@"Aaron Ansari.1604" said:

It's a minor thing, but according to the recent weapon current event/quest chain, they've finally gotten around to signing the 'Treaty of Ebonhawke'. Not as much fanfare as I would've liked, but... not the first time they've realized they've left a thread hanging too long and cleared it out of the way, and it is about time we got out of negotiation limbo.

But the term treaty of ebonhawke was always used for ceasefire agreement. I don't really see which part of the dialogue suggests its the peace treaty.

But yeah, in all honestly, we can most likely assume that Treaty was signed somewhere in the last 6 years as it is getting ridiculous by this point now

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@kasoki.5180 said:

@"Aaron Ansari.1604" said:

It's a minor thing, but according to the recent weapon current event/quest chain,
Not as much fanfare as I would've liked, but... not the first time they've realized they've left a thread hanging too long and cleared it out of the way, and it
is
about time we got out of negotiation limbo.

But the term treaty of ebonhawke was always used for ceasefire agreement. I don't really see which part of the dialogue suggests its the peace treaty.

But yeah, in all honestly, we can most likely assume that Treaty was signed somewhere in the last 6 years as it is getting ridiculous by this point now

I get your point, but we've had some really absurdly long talks for treaty's with less hostile nations then the Charr and Humans.

But in the terms of a MMO, yes it's been awhile time wise.

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@kasoki.5180 said:

@"Aaron Ansari.1604" said:

It's a minor thing, but according to the recent weapon current event/quest chain,
Not as much fanfare as I would've liked, but... not the first time they've realized they've left a thread hanging too long and cleared it out of the way, and it
is
about time we got out of negotiation limbo.

But the term treaty of ebonhawke was always used for ceasefire agreement. I don't really see which part of the dialogue suggests its the peace treaty.

But yeah, in all honestly, we can most likely assume that Treaty was signed somewhere in the last 6 years as it is getting ridiculous by this point now

To the contrary, the term "treaty of Ebonhawke" has never been used before that NPC. I searched the wiki for it before I posted.

EDIT: There was one occurrence of 'Ebonhawke treaty' before this, and the wiki took that term for the article concerning the ceasefire, but if you look at what was actually said you can see that was a mistake on the part of the wiki editors. Elidor clearly states that the treaty she's talking about is still being negotiated at that point.

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@kasoki.5180 said:

@"Aaron Ansari.1604" said:

It's a minor thing, but according to the recent weapon current event/quest chain,
Not as much fanfare as I would've liked, but... not the first time they've realized they've left a thread hanging too long and cleared it out of the way, and it
is
about time we got out of negotiation limbo.

But the term treaty of ebonhawke was always used for ceasefire agreement. I don't really see which part of the dialogue suggests its the peace treaty.

But yeah, in all honestly, we can most likely assume that Treaty was signed somewhere in the last 6 years as it is getting ridiculous by this point now

Id say an indefinite cease fire is as close to a peace treaty as you can get without further exploring a diplomatic story in game which would turn alot of players off from the story.

@Loesh.4697 said:

@"Aaron Ansari.1604" said:

It's a minor thing, but according to the recent weapon current event/quest chain,
Not as much fanfare as I would've liked, but... not the first time they've realized they've left a thread hanging too long and cleared it out of the way, and it
is
about time we got out of negotiation limbo.

But the term treaty of ebonhawke was always used for ceasefire agreement. I don't really see which part of the dialogue suggests its the peace treaty.

But yeah, in all honestly, we can most likely assume that Treaty was signed somewhere in the last 6 years as it is getting ridiculous by this point now

I get your point, but we've had some really absurdly long talks for treaty's with less hostile nations then the Charr and Humans.

But in the terms of a MMO, yes it's been awhile time wise.

For all we know nowadays, Ebonhawke and the Citadel have a full blown peace treaty in the current story year among other things. Due to the maps all being froze in the year of the original story, outside of the few maps that saw updates during season 1.

the black citadel would have been expanded upon, and probably finished at leas the core, the outside towns would have expanded quite a bit since the games launch.the towns outside of divinites reach would be a fair bit larger than they are now, all the Asura labs that exist outside of Rata Sum would be more expanded and updated, the smaller "groves" outside of The Grove would be much more grown now.

That is my issue, we cant say anything at all about "what they will look in the future" because we have no examples of them growing in any way on the older maps, which is something i would love to see personally, across the entirety of Tyria.

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