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[Suggestion] Stop making Story Bosses Hard (LS4 Spoilers)


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@hugo.4705 said:I really think that story instances should have difficulty like SAB, an easy mode to progress faster and less sub-events between main parts, normal like the instance is currently with boss fights do-able solo, tribulation where it's a nightmare where you need to bring friends with somes bonuses but higher risk.E.g: Exterminator golem ls4e2:-easy = boss -10% health, -20% attack damage-normal = boss -10% health, normal attack-tribulation = boss +10% health, +20% attack damage(With achievs timer adjusted)

this gets thrown around a lot in discussions about difficulty or challenge, but health and dps changes will only affect the duration of the fight, not the difficulty or challenge thereof. If you can block or dodge attacks well, then it doesn't matter if you have to do it for an extra 10 seconds. nothing changes

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@Menadena.7482 said:

@Einsof.1457 said:You are joking, right? It is literally impossible to lose in the story.

For you perhaps. Many many players have problems with the story, and do find it difficult.

The story fights are literally designed to be impossible to actually lose... So what game are you playing?

Technically right in the sense of a bird pecking at a mountain of diamond will eventually wear it down. Read this as 'in a reasonable amount of time' or 'without dying'.

You can't please everyone. But you REALLY can't please everyone if the expectation is that you should never die during storyline content. Is it really unreasonable to expect players to have a go at content, fail, and learn to overcome? Isn't that what gaming is all about?

I get that rez rushing isn't satisfying, but most of these bosses are only "difficult" in the sense that if you ignore the mechanics they punish you. It's not really about having the best build or insane skills at all. But if you expect that you will never die and get extremely frustrated any time you do, well, I'd say the problem is you (general "you", not you personally).

This applies to the complaint about bosses taking forever, too. Take that eater of souls fight. He has very little health for a boss, but he has a strong life drain. You're supposed to break his defiance bar when he does it, but I'm guessing people who say it took "forever" are somehow not aware of what a defiance bar is. So, yeah, if you keep letting him heal to full you will never kill him. But if you just apply a tiny bit of CC (and practically ANY CC will do!), he's cake. This fight only took me 30 seconds using trailblazer gear, which is waaaay below raid level DPS. The problem is not the boss having too much health, it's players not understanding the mechanics.

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@Mil.3562 said:

@Chickenooble.5014 said:I disagree with you guys. I think the story content should have a level of difficulty that provides a challenge to the player. If you, the player, can't figure out how to beat a fight then you die. That's how games should work; you should be rewarded to overcoming a challenge and punished for failing. The punishment in this game isn't drastic, either. You get to restart at checkpoints, you come back with your health, you don't lose items and the bosses seldom recover health in story content. You guys have it easy.

If you're incapable of beating content on your own consider the following:1) Change your build. I can't think of a single class that doesn't have a good build for PvE content. That means you might need to change your weapon set, specializations or skills. When you die and respawn at a checkpoint you can make changes (in most cases) to help overcome obstacles in the current fight.2) Take some instant repair canisters with you. When you die so much that your armor is broken then you're not very effective. Repair before getting back into the fight.3) Party up with some friends. If you can't do it by yourself then bring others along.

I'm not going to "git gud" or anything like that... but, the content isn't that hard. I think some people just need to learn to use all of the tools they have at their disposal and go into fight with the right gear and skill. For what it's worth, I run around in full exotics on all my characters (at best) and change my skills/weapons frequently to match whatever situation I find myself in. You guys should try that sometime.

I disgree with you.

Change my build? Buy repair canisters? Bring along a party? Are we talking about raids here?

IMO, story content are meant to be enjoyable. For an
average player
, and there are many out there, having to die many times in order go through the story is not enjoyment, that's total frustration.

This is supposed to be
story
progression. I want to discover new locations, plots and enjoy the gameplay along the way. Making the LS too challenging makes me want to give up or quickly get over it, too frustrated to care about anything else.

I know there are many elitists out there who wants everything to be challenging and NOTHING to them is ever difficult. Well, good for you. For the rest of us, please let us enjoy our games.

I'm about as "casual" (for lack of a better word) and while I agree the Scruffy 2.0 fight can be remarkably frustrating; I got caught in the beams and gave myself a migraine trying to get free, I think a degree of story difficulty isn't a bad thing.

I get it. I do. Single player content should be doable but that doesn't mean that it shoul just be a cakewalk in my opinion. Something like the Scruffy 2.0 or Joko fight should require the player to use basic mechanics such as dodge rolling and break bars to be successful.

I agree that one should not have to re-trait to be successful but on the flip side, if you're having difficulty re-traiting may make things easier for you. That's why we have the trait system after all-so we can meet each challenge optimally.

I will say this though: once you do the fight the first time, the second time is much, much easier when you know what to expect. Stay tough. You absolutely can do it. I did and I downright can stink at the game.

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@Khisanth.2948 said:Why bother playing a game if all they want is a story? There are other media format that would be more fitting and provides a better story to boot.

I would gladly skip the story if I could have access to the new map and it was not used to kick off achievements like the bandolier. I do not need the blues/greens it gives and the bragging rights.

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@battledrone.8315 said:

@"TheUndefined.1720" said:I made this suggestion back in my HoT review, and I'm going to make it here; Stop making PvE story bosses hard. I'm currently sitting in the active fight with Scruffy 2.0, dead, having died at least a dozens times, and I honestly just want to throw my hands up. The point where you frustrate your player to quitting is bad game design. I understand, as game developers, you want to make the fight epic - oh no! Taimi suffocating! I care and have to hurry, but I have massive amounts of projectiles, burning, aoe's, and a completely incompetent NPC that DOES NOT use his reflect as he should... that means I don't care about Taimi, I just want to get out of the fight.

So here are some suggestions:
  • Lower the Bosses HP pool: The boss fight is taking way too long, and it is not enjoyable, take down the HP
  • Stop with the rapid fire AoE's AND projectiles: Slow down on the boss's attack
  • Relax on the complicated moves: This isn't a raid, it's a story boss, being solo'd, there's no need to make so difficult
  • Program a better companion: In every fight I did during LS4 (Sunspears, Corsairs, the rag tag team, Braham) they stopped attacking and just stood there.. seriously during the inquest swarm they all just stood there

I know the automatic response from the forum goers will be "get better," sure, I'm willing to do that, I've tried doing that, but ANet keeps making their story bosses more and more difficult. This isn't fun anymore. Please chill out on the difficulty of the story bosses.

Story bosses are not hard. You need to just learn how to play. I beat them all on almost all the classes. I really don't want them to nerf the game. Please just learn to dodge better and make your own builds that you know how to play to overcome challenges. Not that this game is challenging.

if they arent hard, why do these threads keep popping up?"you need to overcome challenges.but this game isnt challenging"...what?so a challenge isnt challenging? please explain that one

It keeps popping up because people literary don't put the time to learn the combat and build mechanics and they don't learn how to dodge or try new tactics.And I can't believe you're going to make me explain this but here it goes:You need to overcome challenges in a game to succeed. However this game isn't even challenging to begin with since anyone can succeed given they learn the mechanics. If this does not make sense too you then I do not know what will.

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@DreamyAbaddon.3265 said:

@"TheUndefined.1720" said:I made this suggestion back in my HoT review, and I'm going to make it here; Stop making PvE story bosses hard. I'm currently sitting in the active fight with Scruffy 2.0, dead, having died at least a dozens times, and I honestly just want to throw my hands up. The point where you frustrate your player to quitting is bad game design. I understand, as game developers, you want to make the fight epic - oh no! Taimi suffocating! I care and have to hurry, but I have massive amounts of projectiles, burning, aoe's, and a completely incompetent NPC that DOES NOT use his reflect as he should... that means I don't care about Taimi, I just want to get out of the fight.

So here are some suggestions:
  • Lower the Bosses HP pool: The boss fight is taking way too long, and it is not enjoyable, take down the HP
  • Stop with the rapid fire AoE's AND projectiles: Slow down on the boss's attack
  • Relax on the complicated moves: This isn't a raid, it's a story boss, being solo'd, there's no need to make so difficult
  • Program a better companion: In every fight I did during LS4 (Sunspears, Corsairs, the rag tag team, Braham) they stopped attacking and just stood there.. seriously during the inquest swarm they all just stood there

I know the automatic response from the forum goers will be "get better," sure, I'm willing to do that, I've tried doing that, but ANet keeps making their story bosses more and more difficult. This isn't fun anymore. Please chill out on the difficulty of the story bosses.

Story bosses are not hard. You need to just learn how to play. I beat them all on almost all the classes. I really don't want them to nerf the game. Please just learn to dodge better and make your own builds that you know how to play to overcome challenges. Not that this game is challenging.

if they arent hard, why do these threads keep popping up?"you need to overcome challenges.but this game isnt challenging"...what?so a challenge isnt challenging? please explain that one

It keeps popping up because people literary don't put the time to learn the combat and build mechanics and they don't learn how to dodge or try new tactics.And I can't believe you're going to make me explain this but here it goes:You need to overcome challenges in a game to succeed. However this game isn't even challenging to begin with since anyone can succeed given they learn the mechanics. If this does not make sense too you then I do not know what will.

Ah yes, the "git gud" complaint. sigh No matter what the reason is if something that is described as a story is too tough for part of your audience then there are really only two ways of solving the problem:

  • Make it easier. You can always make the encounter harder for yourself if you want to by doing things like only wearing blues and greens.
  • Make the difficulty selectable. This would be the better option, everyone gets what they want, both people who find it too hard and people who find it too easy.
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@Menadena.7482 said:

@"TheUndefined.1720" said:I made this suggestion back in my HoT review, and I'm going to make it here; Stop making PvE story bosses hard. I'm currently sitting in the active fight with Scruffy 2.0, dead, having died at least a dozens times, and I honestly just want to throw my hands up. The point where you frustrate your player to quitting is bad game design. I understand, as game developers, you want to make the fight epic - oh no! Taimi suffocating! I care and have to hurry, but I have massive amounts of projectiles, burning, aoe's, and a completely incompetent NPC that DOES NOT use his reflect as he should... that means I don't care about Taimi, I just want to get out of the fight.

So here are some suggestions:
  • Lower the Bosses HP pool: The boss fight is taking way too long, and it is not enjoyable, take down the HP
  • Stop with the rapid fire AoE's AND projectiles: Slow down on the boss's attack
  • Relax on the complicated moves: This isn't a raid, it's a story boss, being solo'd, there's no need to make so difficult
  • Program a better companion: In every fight I did during LS4 (Sunspears, Corsairs, the rag tag team, Braham) they stopped attacking and just stood there.. seriously during the inquest swarm they all just stood there

I know the automatic response from the forum goers will be "get better," sure, I'm willing to do that, I've tried doing that, but ANet keeps making their story bosses more and more difficult. This isn't fun anymore. Please chill out on the difficulty of the story bosses.

Story bosses are not hard. You need to just learn how to play. I beat them all on almost all the classes. I really don't want them to nerf the game. Please just learn to dodge better and make your own builds that you know how to play to overcome challenges. Not that this game is challenging.

if they arent hard, why do these threads keep popping up?"you need to overcome challenges.but this game isnt challenging"...what?so a challenge isnt challenging? please explain that one

It keeps popping up because people literary don't put the time to learn the combat and build mechanics and they don't learn how to dodge or try new tactics.And I can't believe you're going to make me explain this but here it goes:You need to overcome challenges in a game to succeed. However this game isn't even challenging to begin with since anyone can succeed given they learn the mechanics. If this does not make sense too you then I do not know what will.

Ah yes, the "git gud" complaint.
sigh
No matter what the reason is if something that is described as a story is too tough for part of your audience then there are really only two ways of solving the problem:
  • Make it easier. You can always make the encounter harder for yourself if you want to by doing things like only wearing blues and greens.
  • Make the difficulty selectable. This would be the better option, everyone gets what they want, both people who find it too hard and people who find it too easy.

Well, the "Git gud" theory has some accuracy in this game when a good player is doing 5x more damage than an average player...i wouldnt even want to imagine what an average player is doing over a bad player!!!

Do agree about the selectable difficulty but still.

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I don't think story instance is too difficult for player who have played most of expansion content. But this is a community game. Majority of player is casual one. Do we really need to make story content hard? Vannila Guild Wars 2 was kinda casual taste game and had huge number of fan, but since HoT released, we lost many of them. I hope Guild Wars 2 would be a game that everyone feels enjoyable, not only elitists.

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was it season 2 in sw? idk that sw armor chieves were the hardest story instances for me, everything else since has been a certain method you had to figure out, but the fight itself wasn't that hard. Not understanding a fight made it frustrating and i think the devs need to do a better job showing you what to do/ how to fight in the lead up story bits b4 the main boss fight because sometimes its not very clear.

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@Shikaru.7618 said:

@battledrone.8315 said:this thread is evidence, that the content IS the problem....but even if it wasnt...what then?that would mean, that they have made the right game for the wrong people, yes?

I need to nail these 2 planks together but my no matter how hard I smash my kitchen sink on the nails I just can't seem to do the job. Something must be wrong with the nails.

i didnt pay for the rights to nail planks, i bought a game, that was sold as the game for EVERYBODY.

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@Menadena.7482 said:

@"TheUndefined.1720" said:I made this suggestion back in my HoT review, and I'm going to make it here; Stop making PvE story bosses hard. I'm currently sitting in the active fight with Scruffy 2.0, dead, having died at least a dozens times, and I honestly just want to throw my hands up. The point where you frustrate your player to quitting is bad game design. I understand, as game developers, you want to make the fight epic - oh no! Taimi suffocating! I care and have to hurry, but I have massive amounts of projectiles, burning, aoe's, and a completely incompetent NPC that DOES NOT use his reflect as he should... that means I don't care about Taimi, I just want to get out of the fight.

So here are some suggestions:
  • Lower the Bosses HP pool: The boss fight is taking way too long, and it is not enjoyable, take down the HP
  • Stop with the rapid fire AoE's AND projectiles: Slow down on the boss's attack
  • Relax on the complicated moves: This isn't a raid, it's a story boss, being solo'd, there's no need to make so difficult
  • Program a better companion: In every fight I did during LS4 (Sunspears, Corsairs, the rag tag team, Braham) they stopped attacking and just stood there.. seriously during the inquest swarm they all just stood there

I know the automatic response from the forum goers will be "get better," sure, I'm willing to do that, I've tried doing that, but ANet keeps making their story bosses more and more difficult. This isn't fun anymore. Please chill out on the difficulty of the story bosses.

Story bosses are not hard. You need to just learn how to play. I beat them all on almost all the classes. I really don't want them to nerf the game. Please just learn to dodge better and make your own builds that you know how to play to overcome challenges. Not that this game is challenging.

if they arent hard, why do these threads keep popping up?"you need to overcome challenges.but this game isnt challenging"...what?so a challenge isnt challenging? please explain that one

It keeps popping up because people literary don't put the time to learn the combat and build mechanics and they don't learn how to dodge or try new tactics.And I can't believe you're going to make me explain this but here it goes:You need to overcome challenges in a game to succeed. However this game isn't even challenging to begin with since anyone can succeed given they learn the mechanics. If this does not make sense too you then I do not know what will.

Ah yes, the "git gud" complaint.
sigh
No matter what the reason is if something that is described as a story is too tough for part of your audience then there are really only two ways of solving the problem:
  • Make it easier. You can always make the encounter harder for yourself if you want to by doing things like only wearing blues and greens.
  • Make the difficulty selectable. This would be the better option, everyone gets what they want, both people who find it too hard and people who find it too easy.

Or players can just group up if they’re unable to complete a soloable story instance.

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@battledrone.8315 said:

@battledrone.8315 said:this thread is evidence, that the content IS the problem....but even if it wasnt...what then?that would mean, that they have made the right game for the wrong people, yes?

I need to nail these 2 planks together but my no matter how hard I smash my kitchen sink on the nails I just can't seem to do the job. Something must be wrong with the nails.

i didnt pay for the rights to nail planks, i bought a game, that was sold as the game for EVERYBODY.

Every games are sold for everybody who wants to play games.

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@"Menadena.7482" said:Ah yes, the "git gud" complaint. sigh No matter what the reason is if something that is described as a story is too tough for part of your audience then there are really only two ways of solving the problem:

  • Make it easier. You can always make the encounter harder for yourself if you want to by doing things like only wearing blues and greens.
  • Make the difficulty selectable. This would be the better option, everyone gets what they want, both people who find it too hard and people who find it too easy.

Or the third and best solution:The players asks for help. If you find something difficult ask for help, either someone to get into the instance with you, or get advice on how to beat the content. There is very little need to change the content itself, it's faster and more efficient to change the player instead.

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@"ProtoGunner.4953" said:Why the long discussions. Some people aren't just as good as others. Just make difficulty settings. Or the ultra casuals should play Pokemon Go.

"Just" make difficulty settings, you say it as if it's the easiest thing to do that doesn't take development time and resources. And let's suppose they add an easy version of the boss fights, do you think these types of threads will end? I think not, unless this easier version is so easy a toddler can finish it while blindfolded, which means it's no longer a video game.

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@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"ProtoGunner.4953" said:Why the long discussions. Some people aren't just as good as others. Just make difficulty settings. Or the ultra casuals should play Pokemon Go.

"Just" make difficulty settings, you say it as if it's the easiest thing to do that doesn't take development time and resources. And let's suppose they add an easy version of the boss fights, do you think these types of threads will end? I think not, unless this easier version is so easy a toddler can finish it while blindfolded, which means it's no longer a video game.

Well most other MMOs are able to pull that off. The constant argumentation that something needs resources and that's why we can't expect is, is just null and void. Of course it needs resources and manpower, that's normal. But if people ware asking for it like a shitton they should do it. Also, it's not that there is a sheer overload of content pushed out compared to other companies. Don't get me wrong: GW2 is really special, it's polished and they always put in gimmick and love, which takes longer than your usual standard MMO. But maybe they should restructure their priorities.

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@ProtoGunner.4953 said:Well most other MMOs are able to pull that off. The constant argumentation that something needs resources and that's why we can't expect is, is just null and void. Of course it needs resources and manpower, that's normal. But if people ware asking for it like a shitton they should do it. Also, it's not that there is a sheer overload of content pushed out compared to other companies. Don't get me wrong: GW2 is really special, it's polished and they always put in gimmick and love, which takes longer than your usual standard MMO. But maybe they should restructure their priorities.

Are people really asking for this though? What's the metric? One forum post since the new forums were created? Also, if you know those other games that do it, do they have a gear treadmill where players get their second best gear from running those other difficulty modes? What I mean is, are those extra difficulty modes a way for more players to experience the story (as is what's being discussed here for GW2), or part of the game's gear progression. Because to my knowledge, games that do have multiple difficulties for their content, also have different gear tiers as rewards from them.

And you didn't answer the second part of my comment, that is how easy is easy enough.

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@ProtoGunner.4953 said:

@ProtoGunner.4953 said:Why the long discussions. Some people aren't just as good as others. Just make difficulty settings. Or the ultra casuals should play Pokemon Go.

"Just" make difficulty settings, you say it as if it's the easiest thing to do that doesn't take development time and resources. And let's suppose they add an easy version of the boss fights, do you think these types of threads will end? I think not, unless this easier version is so easy a toddler can finish it while blindfolded, which means it's no longer a video game.

Well most other MMOs are able to pull that off. The constant argumentation that something needs resources and that's why we can't expect is, is just null and void. Of course it needs resources and manpower, that's normal. But if people ware asking for it like a shitton they should do it. Also, it's not that there is a sheer overload of content pushed out compared to other companies. Don't get me wrong: GW2 is really special, it's polished and they always put in gimmick and love, which takes longer than your usual standard MMO. But maybe they should restructure their priorities.

Things taking resources isn’t suddenly null and void simply because other MMO do something similar to what’s requested.

Actually, which MMO’s have an easy mode for story content?

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@"MDove.2391" said:Menadena said: You can always make the encounter harder for yourself if you want to by doing things like only wearing blues and greens.

Okay, Newbie question for ya...What are ya referring to by "Blues/Greens?Workin to learn 'bout Builds but, can't find this.Thx.

They are talking about fine=blue and masterwork=green level of items.You also have white below blue and rare=yellow, exotic=orange and ascended purple

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There are a few bosses I can think of that frustrated me to no end but Ill focus on the Scruffy fight the OP is talking about. I also got frustrated with it to the point that I quit the instance. Guildie also had trouble with this and we partied up and finished it together on his account. I never went back and tried it again solo. I know that most dont have a problem with the story content and I have been previously criticized in forum for complaining about it .... But I agree with the OP's suggestions in making it a more enjoyable experience.

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  • 6 months later...

@Cataclysmm.3615 said:Came back to the game after being gone since 2017 and stuck at the same boss, no further story line progress possible. As always, a disappointment and the reason I stop playing it yet again. Farming kitten just doesnt hold much appeal and thats all I can do in the game anymore.What region are you playing in (NA or EU)? If you're on EU and willing to do the story in a group, I'll gladly join and help you out, and I'm sure there are others on both EU and NA that would do the same. Like people said in this thread (and many others like it), often it's just a few hints and suggestions needed to win (and even enjoy) all of the story fights.

Aside from that, you can always start the next episode if you are stuck on one. If it's still the Scruffy fight at the end of the Istan episode you are stuck on, you aren't missing out on story if you jump straight to episode 2, as the Scruffy fight is the end of that episode.

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