Do raids need easy/normal/hard difficulty mode? [merged] - Page 79 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Do raids need easy/normal/hard difficulty mode? [merged]

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  • runeblade.7514runeblade.7514 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 12, 2018
    We need both easy and hard modes

    Th> @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @runeblade.7514 said:
    I remember raiders saying that they don't want easy mode difficulty because Raids will take longer to release.

    How is that new raid going so far?

    Okay. And It's a literally fact that despite the new raid taking too long, adding easy mode would make it take even longer.

    If it takes that, then I am all for it. I've been waiting years for raids that I can play. You guys merely waited for months for a new wing.

    6x warrior/5xRanger/6x Revenant/6x Mesmer/5x Guardian/6x Thief/5x Engineer/5x Necromancer/5x Elementalist

  • We need both easy and hard modes

    @Xantaria.8726 said:

    @runeblade.7514 said:

    The same way I expect a new fractal player ease into fractals. The new fractal/raiders you described will not learn anything you outlined. But they will learn to defeat the mechanic of raids/fractals at a lower difficulty or never ascend to higher difficulty.

    I don't care if a T4 player doesn't know what Heartseeker is. As long as he knows how to beat the fractal, that is all that matters.

    w1
    Which most players in t4 dont. We already have threads where people report that its actual even getting worse, with many of them having no idea how the mechanics work. Which propably comes from the simple reason that you can buy yourself into t4 buy buying infusions from the tp and you can get asc gear from either crafting, collections, lw3+4 maps and wvw/pvp. Many just skip the first tiers. Unless a solution like you cant enter a higher fractal then the one your own lvl is currently i dont see any sign of change in that behavior.
    Completly besides the point that raids are taking to long already.

    It doesn't feel T4 pugs got bad to me. Whether its true or not, That player climbed his way to t4. He bought the gear and infusion with the gold he earned. I won't deny him t4.

    However, if I was in his pug, I would either kick him or leave; The same way I expect from a hard mode raid. But this time, t1-t3 is always available to him to learn at an easier difficulty if he feels t4 is too hard. Meanwhile, Fractal players won't require him to ping his 250 Pristine Fractal relics just to join but, If t4 do start to do something like that right now, then t1-t3 is there for him.

    6x warrior/5xRanger/6x Revenant/6x Mesmer/5x Guardian/6x Thief/5x Engineer/5x Necromancer/5x Elementalist

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @runeblade.7514 said:
    Th> @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @runeblade.7514 said:
    I remember raiders saying that they don't want easy mode difficulty because Raids will take longer to release.

    How is that new raid going so far?

    Okay. And It's a literally fact that despite the new raid taking too long, adding easy mode would make it take even longer.

    If it takes that, then I am all for it. I've been waiting years for raids that I can play. You guys merely waited for months for a new wing.

    Dungeons will give you more or less the exact same experience as raiding with none of the difficulty.

    The Psychomancer: Mesmer Elite Specialization Suggestion

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 13, 2018
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @runeblade.7514 said:
    Th> @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @runeblade.7514 said:
    I remember raiders saying that they don't want easy mode difficulty because Raids will take longer to release.

    How is that new raid going so far?

    Okay. And It's a literally fact that despite the new raid taking too long, adding easy mode would make it take even longer.

    If it takes that, then I am all for it. I've been waiting years for raids that I can play. You guys merely waited for months for a new wing.

    I call nonsense.

    It's fine if you are in favor of an easy mode but don't bring this kitten argument here.

    Lack of content has been an issue in the past in all areas of the game. It's always been very damaging. Adding debatable difficulties and thus prolonging the developement time for a niche game mode which is already on the brink of no content because YOU think it's worth it is plain idiotic.

    It's a poor argument and if you were in any way interested in this game mode not one you would make.

    There is easier and less demanding instanced content in the game. Play that instead of wishing harm to a game mode which is very obviously not for you.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @runeblade.7514 said:

    @Xantaria.8726 said:

    @runeblade.7514 said:

    The same way I expect a new fractal player ease into fractals. The new fractal/raiders you described will not learn anything you outlined. But they will learn to defeat the mechanic of raids/fractals at a lower difficulty or never ascend to higher difficulty.

    I don't care if a T4 player doesn't know what Heartseeker is. As long as he knows how to beat the fractal, that is all that matters.

    w1
    Which most players in t4 dont. We already have threads where people report that its actual even getting worse, with many of them having no idea how the mechanics work. Which propably comes from the simple reason that you can buy yourself into t4 buy buying infusions from the tp and you can get asc gear from either crafting, collections, lw3+4 maps and wvw/pvp. Many just skip the first tiers. Unless a solution like you cant enter a higher fractal then the one your own lvl is currently i dont see any sign of change in that behavior.
    Completly besides the point that raids are taking to long already.

    It doesn't feel T4 pugs got bad to me. Whether its true or not, That player climbed his way to t4. He bought the gear and infusion with the gold he earned. I won't deny him t4.

    However, if I was in his pug, I would either kick him or leave; The same way I expect from a hard mode raid. But this time, t1-t3 is always available to him to learn at an easier difficulty if he feels t4 is too hard. Meanwhile, Fractal players won't require him to ping his 250 Pristine Fractal relics just to join but, If t4 do start to do something like that right now, then t1-t3 is there for him.

    As someone who plays (and pugs) fractals daily, allow me to disagree. There's a reason I always look for at least 100-150 kp groups who do full runs, cms included. And the reason isn't the extra reward, it's the avoided clown fiesta. The average T4 pug is quite terrible to be honest. Yes, you can manage to clear the daily fractals this way, too, but it takes considerably longer and more often than not is more annoying than fun.

    And the thing is, the existence of the lower tiers doesn't really do anything for the progression, except delay it. The players who end up playing the "t4+cm" tier don't reach there because they had the lower tiers to "prepare". Lower tiers do nothing to prepare you. Even t4 doesn't do even remotely enough to prepare you for the cms. The players who end up playing in the top tier are simply those who like this particular form of fun - challenging group content. They, too, were playing new bosses they didn't know. They, too, wiped time and again. But they had the mindset to persist and master the challenge, so they did. No amount of easier tiers will make a player who doesn't like challenging content do well in one.

    Exactly the same holds true for raids.

    This.

  • Henry.5713Henry.5713 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 13, 2018
    We need a hard mode, but not an easy mode

    It has been years (2012-2013, possibly 2014) since the Fractal tier design actually worked as intended - as a proper ways of progression.
    People either jump into the high tiers instantly given the current infusion/AR system or they decide to stay on T2 or T3 as that is where they belong
    (or they think they belong). There might be exceptions to this where people play their way up each tier and even each Fractal level but they are a tiny group. No amount of practice in T3 will fully prepare you for T4 and neither will any amount of practice in T4s fully prepare you for CMs if that is simply not where you belong. Neither would anyone already in T4 and CMs bother with the lower tiers upon the introduction of a new Fractal.

    @runeblade.7514 said:
    Th> @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @runeblade.7514 said:
    I remember raiders saying that they don't want easy mode difficulty because Raids will take longer to release.

    How is that new raid going so far?

    Okay. And It's a literally fact that despite the new raid taking too long, adding easy mode would make it take even longer.

    If it takes that, then I am all for it. I've been waiting years for raids that I can play. You guys merely waited for months for a new wing.

    What nonsense. That's like saying they need to introduce a hardcore Open World Boss along the lines of a 50 men Dhuum CM to please those like us who have been waiting for something like that since release. There is a reason why there are different modes for different groups of players. PvP is for PvP players, Open World PvE is for the casuals and Competitive PvE is for those into challenging group content.

    Progress isn't made by early risers. It's made by lazy men trying to find easier ways to do something. ~ Robert Heinlein

  • We need both easy and hard modes

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @runeblade.7514 said:

    @Xantaria.8726 said:

    @runeblade.7514 said:

    The same way I expect a new fractal player ease into fractals. The new fractal/raiders you described will not learn anything you outlined. But they will learn to defeat the mechanic of raids/fractals at a lower difficulty or never ascend to higher difficulty.

    I don't care if a T4 player doesn't know what Heartseeker is. As long as he knows how to beat the fractal, that is all that matters.

    w1
    Which most players in t4 dont. We already have threads where people report that its actual even getting worse, with many of them having no idea how the mechanics work. Which propably comes from the simple reason that you can buy yourself into t4 buy buying infusions from the tp and you can get asc gear from either crafting, collections, lw3+4 maps and wvw/pvp. Many just skip the first tiers. Unless a solution like you cant enter a higher fractal then the one your own lvl is currently i dont see any sign of change in that behavior.
    Completly besides the point that raids are taking to long already.

    It doesn't feel T4 pugs got bad to me. Whether its true or not, That player climbed his way to t4. He bought the gear and infusion with the gold he earned. I won't deny him t4.

    However, if I was in his pug, I would either kick him or leave; The same way I expect from a hard mode raid. But this time, t1-t3 is always available to him to learn at an easier difficulty if he feels t4 is too hard. Meanwhile, Fractal players won't require him to ping his 250 Pristine Fractal relics just to join but, If t4 do start to do something like that right now, then t1-t3 is there for him.

    As someone who plays (and pugs) fractals daily, allow me to disagree. There's a reason I always look for at least 100-150 kp groups who do full runs, cms included. And the reason isn't the extra reward, it's the avoided clown fiesta. The average T4 pug is quite terrible to be honest. Yes, you can manage to clear the daily fractals this way, too, but it takes considerably longer and more often than not is more annoying than fun.

    And the thing is, the existence of the lower tiers doesn't really do anything for the progression, except delay it. The players who end up playing the "t4+cm" tier don't reach there because they had the lower tiers to "prepare". Lower tiers do nothing to prepare you. Even t4 doesn't do even remotely enough to prepare you for the cms. The players who end up playing in the top tier are simply those who like this particular form of fun - challenging group content. They, too, were playing new bosses they didn't know. They, too, wiped time and again. But they had the mindset to persist and master the challenge, so they did. No amount of easier tiers will make a player who doesn't like challenging content do well in one.

    Exactly the same holds true for raids.

    Can only agree.

  • We need an easy mode, but not a hard mode

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    There is easier and less demanding instanced content in the game. Play that instead of wishing harm to a game mode which is very obviously not for you.

    Tell that to the raiders that have been recently clamoring for making personal story fights more challenging.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    There is easier and less demanding instanced content in the game. Play that instead of wishing harm to a game mode which is very obviously not for you.

    Tell that to the raiders that have been recently clamoring for making personal story fights more challenging.

    And to those people I would say:"wrong content to make challenging."

    The personal story should be manageable by a vast majority of people so everyone can experience the story imo.

    Two wrongs to not make a right though so arguing that people want idiotic changes in one game mode doesn't justify asking for different nonsense in a different one.

  • We need both easy and hard modes

    I've always been of the opinion that no game needs a tier of content that only the hardcore element gets to see. This is important to this game since it decided not to continue to add dungeon content. I feel like fractals are ok but an imperfect solution to 5 man content at best. Varied difficulties with more/better rewards as you go up are fine.

  • runeblade.7514runeblade.7514 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 14, 2018
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @runeblade.7514 said:
    Th> @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @runeblade.7514 said:
    I remember raiders saying that they don't want easy mode difficulty because Raids will take longer to release.

    How is that new raid going so far?

    Okay. And It's a literally fact that despite the new raid taking too long, adding easy mode would make it take even longer.

    If it takes that, then I am all for it. I've been waiting years for raids that I can play. You guys merely waited for months for a new wing.

    I call nonsense.

    It's fine if you are in favor of an easy mode but don't bring this kitten argument here.

    Lack of content has been an issue in the past in all areas of the game. It's always been very damaging. Adding debatable difficulties and thus prolonging the developement time for a niche game mode which is already on the brink of no content because YOU think it's worth it is plain idiotic.

    It's a poor argument and if you were in any way interested in this game mode not one you would make.

    There is easier and less demanding instanced content in the game. Play that instead of wishing harm to a game mode which is very obviously not for you.

    I am interested in experiencing raids. I am just not interested in getting into the headache of getting kicked from raid leaders for not having enough LI and finding out there are no raid training that will ever be scheduled when I am online. With easy mode, getting into raids will be easy as making a group and getting people of my skill level to join.

    6x warrior/5xRanger/6x Revenant/6x Mesmer/5x Guardian/6x Thief/5x Engineer/5x Necromancer/5x Elementalist

  • runeblade.7514runeblade.7514 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 14, 2018
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    There is easier and less demanding instanced content in the game. Play that instead of wishing harm to a game mode which is very obviously not for you.

    Tell that to the raiders that have been recently clamoring for making personal story fights more challenging.

    And to those people I would say:"wrong content to make challenging."

    The personal story should be manageable by a vast majority of people so everyone can experience the story imo.

    Two wrongs to not make a right though so arguing that people want idiotic changes in one game mode doesn't justify asking for different nonsense in a different one.

    Frankly, I would be happy if ANet does have challenging personal storyline mode over raids because I don't need to find 9 other people who demands that I be the same skill level as them. All I need to do is get in and get my feet wet. Dark Souls never had to balanced their game for 10 people.

    6x warrior/5xRanger/6x Revenant/6x Mesmer/5x Guardian/6x Thief/5x Engineer/5x Necromancer/5x Elementalist

  • We need both easy and hard modes

    @Henry.5713 said:
    It has been years (2012-2013, possibly 2014) since the Fractal tier design actually worked as intended - as a proper ways of progression.
    People either jump into the high tiers instantly given the current infusion/AR system or they decide to stay on T2 or T3 as that is where they belong
    (or they think they belong). There might be exceptions to this where people play their way up each tier and even each Fractal level but they are a tiny group. No amount of practice in T3 will fully prepare you for T4 and neither will any amount of practice in T4s fully prepare you for CMs if that is simply not where you belong. Neither would anyone already in T4 and CMs bother with the lower tiers upon the introduction of a new Fractal.

    @runeblade.7514 said:
    Th> @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @runeblade.7514 said:
    I remember raiders saying that they don't want easy mode difficulty because Raids will take longer to release.

    How is that new raid going so far?

    Okay. And It's a literally fact that despite the new raid taking too long, adding easy mode would make it take even longer.

    If it takes that, then I am all for it. I've been waiting years for raids that I can play. You guys merely waited for months for a new wing.

    What nonsense. That's like saying they need to introduce a hardcore Open World Boss along the lines of a 50 men Dhuum CM to please those like us who have been waiting for something like that since release. There is a reason why there are different modes for different groups of players. PvP is for PvP players, Open World PvE is for the casuals and Competitive PvE is for those into challenging group content.

    I would be okay with some open world bosses that is hard mode over having only hard mode raids because I don't need to find 9 people demanding that I have the same skill level as them or find a Teq training group. I just need to taxi in to that instance to play that open world world. The group may or may not fail, but the commander can never kick me out of their map.

    6x warrior/5xRanger/6x Revenant/6x Mesmer/5x Guardian/6x Thief/5x Engineer/5x Necromancer/5x Elementalist

  • runeblade.7514runeblade.7514 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 14, 2018
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @runeblade.7514 said:
    Th> @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @runeblade.7514 said:
    I remember raiders saying that they don't want easy mode difficulty because Raids will take longer to release.

    How is that new raid going so far?

    Okay. And It's a literally fact that despite the new raid taking too long, adding easy mode would make it take even longer.

    If it takes that, then I am all for it. I've been waiting years for raids that I can play. You guys merely waited for months for a new wing.

    Dungeons will give you more or less the exact same experience as raiding with none of the difficulty.

    Tell me how CM explorable show me the story of Saul or the environment of Raids of Chain that the artwork team designed.

    6x warrior/5xRanger/6x Revenant/6x Mesmer/5x Guardian/6x Thief/5x Engineer/5x Necromancer/5x Elementalist

  • runeblade.7514runeblade.7514 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 14, 2018
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @runeblade.7514 said:

    @Xantaria.8726 said:

    @runeblade.7514 said:

    The same way I expect a new fractal player ease into fractals. The new fractal/raiders you described will not learn anything you outlined. But they will learn to defeat the mechanic of raids/fractals at a lower difficulty or never ascend to higher difficulty.

    I don't care if a T4 player doesn't know what Heartseeker is. As long as he knows how to beat the fractal, that is all that matters.

    w1
    Which most players in t4 dont. We already have threads where people report that its actual even getting worse, with many of them having no idea how the mechanics work. Which propably comes from the simple reason that you can buy yourself into t4 buy buying infusions from the tp and you can get asc gear from either crafting, collections, lw3+4 maps and wvw/pvp. Many just skip the first tiers. Unless a solution like you cant enter a higher fractal then the one your own lvl is currently i dont see any sign of change in that behavior.
    Completly besides the point that raids are taking to long already.

    It doesn't feel T4 pugs got bad to me. Whether its true or not, That player climbed his way to t4. He bought the gear and infusion with the gold he earned. I won't deny him t4.

    However, if I was in his pug, I would either kick him or leave; The same way I expect from a hard mode raid. But this time, t1-t3 is always available to him to learn at an easier difficulty if he feels t4 is too hard. Meanwhile, Fractal players won't require him to ping his 250 Pristine Fractal relics just to join but, If t4 do start to do something like that right now, then t1-t3 is there for him.

    As someone who plays (and pugs) fractals daily, allow me to disagree. There's a reason I always look for at least 100-150 kp groups who do full runs, cms included. And the reason isn't the extra reward, it's the avoided clown fiesta. The average T4 pug is quite terrible to be honest. Yes, you can manage to clear the daily fractals this way, too, but it takes considerably longer and more often than not is more annoying than fun.

    And the thing is, the existence of the lower tiers doesn't really do anything for the progression, except delay it. The players who end up playing the "t4+cm" tier don't reach there because they had the lower tiers to "prepare". Lower tiers do nothing to prepare you. Even t4 doesn't do even remotely enough to prepare you for the cms. The players who end up playing in the top tier are simply those who like this particular form of fun - challenging group content. They, too, were playing new bosses they didn't know. They, too, wiped time and again. But they had the mindset to persist and master the challenge, so they did. No amount of easier tiers will make a player who doesn't like challenging content do well in one.

    Exactly the same holds true for raids.

    Fractals is designed so that T4 players had to play T1-T2-T3 in order to get to T4, no matter how much they spent money on Agony infusion and Ascended Gear. So they had to experience all the lower tiers multiple times. So I am very skeptical of people trying to say T4 players don't know how Fractals work. I really doubt that the "vast" majority of bad fractal players that you guys exist and, the claim that the very same bad players just want to get into T4 for "a challenging experience" is just so nonsensical, I can't figure out how you actually believe that.

    6x warrior/5xRanger/6x Revenant/6x Mesmer/5x Guardian/6x Thief/5x Engineer/5x Necromancer/5x Elementalist

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 14, 2018
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @runeblade.7514 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @runeblade.7514 said:
    Th> @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @runeblade.7514 said:
    I remember raiders saying that they don't want easy mode difficulty because Raids will take longer to release.

    How is that new raid going so far?

    Okay. And It's a literally fact that despite the new raid taking too long, adding easy mode would make it take even longer.

    If it takes that, then I am all for it. I've been waiting years for raids that I can play. You guys merely waited for months for a new wing.

    I call nonsense.

    It's fine if you are in favor of an easy mode but don't bring this kitten argument here.

    Lack of content has been an issue in the past in all areas of the game. It's always been very damaging. Adding debatable difficulties and thus prolonging the developement time for a niche game mode which is already on the brink of no content because YOU think it's worth it is plain idiotic.

    It's a poor argument and if you were in any way interested in this game mode not one you would make.

    There is easier and less demanding instanced content in the game. Play that instead of wishing harm to a game mode which is very obviously not for you.

    I am interested in experiencing raids. I am just not interested in getting into the headache of getting kicked from raid leaders for not having enough LI and finding out there are no raid training that will ever be scheduled when I am online. With easy mode, getting into raids will be easy as making a group and getting people of my skill level to join.

    You assume easy mode will make raids so easy that there will be no barrier of entry, or enough players to play them (definitely not if rewards are scaled down), or that people would be more forgiving with mistakes and that this kind of easy mode would actually prepare you for "real raids".

    Very likely not.

    You are literally asking for development resources to go towards:

    • a mode which is easy enough to allow people to not care about any type of skill or preparation
    • but difficult enough to actually prepare you for "the real thing"
    • with sufficient rewards that people will actually play it
    • which somehow does a better job at preparing people over regular training raids
    • to experience story content which is barely tacked on as is (watch a wooden potatoes video on the raid wings. You'll learn 100x more about the story then if you ever played through them yourself)

    and you are wondering why people are against this? It just doesn't work. Even traditional MMOs who have easy mode raids which are so dumbed down and function as basically free loot generators to feeds people addiction with colorful items (looking at you WoW) don't have people train on them to experience the fights. They exist only to gear people up in those thread mills to meet the item requirements for raids. Something which does not exist in GW2.

    What you are looking for is a guild with members and people you can befriend who would allow for exactly such interaction which you are asking for and guess what, that's what most raiders are in or were in at some point in time. This has no requirement for an easy mode.

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @runeblade.7514 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @runeblade.7514 said:
    Th> @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @runeblade.7514 said:
    I remember raiders saying that they don't want easy mode difficulty because Raids will take longer to release.

    How is that new raid going so far?

    Okay. And It's a literally fact that despite the new raid taking too long, adding easy mode would make it take even longer.

    If it takes that, then I am all for it. I've been waiting years for raids that I can play. You guys merely waited for months for a new wing.

    Dungeons will give you more or less the exact same experience as raiding with none of the difficulty.

    Tell me how CM explorable show me the story of Saul or the environment of Raids of Chain that the artwork team designed.

    It'll give you the experience of being able to effortlessly clear content without any regards to things like challenge, or difficulty, or risk, or failure.

    The Psychomancer: Mesmer Elite Specialization Suggestion

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Lonami.2987 said:
    Well, WildStar is officially closing down. Hardcore-only raids being one of the main reasons it flopped spectacularly.

    Meanwhile, GW2 is getting about 1 raid a year. How long until we get no more raids whatsoever, hm?

    Yeah. It's not like GW2 isn't the most stable or profitable it's been in years.

    Everyone is frustrated the new raid took so long. It has no bearing on whether easy mode raids are healthy for the game. You have to be extremely daft to think easy mode raids wouldn't end up slowing down production because you're literally adding a copy of the raid to be balanced and QA tested alongside the original version.

    Good MMORPG's are like amusement parks. They have a wide variety of attractions each with a specific appeal. You have the tea cups, the Ferris wheel, the haunted house. Various games. and food. And of course you have more extreme rides like Roller Coasters and Drop Towers. Not everyone likes the Roller Coasters and Drop Towers. They're too extreme for a lot of people. But that's fine because there's all this other stuff in the park for them as well.

    The Psychomancer: Mesmer Elite Specialization Suggestion

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Xerxes.2468 said:
    I've always been of the opinion that no game needs a tier of content that only the hardcore element gets to see. This is important to this game since it decided not to continue to add dungeon content. I feel like fractals are ok but an imperfect solution to 5 man content at best. Varied difficulties with more/better rewards as you go up are fine.

    Your opinion is easy to refute. There are players who seek hardcore challenge, therefore failing to provide that means you lose these players. There are many games for which that's fine. ANet, however, have decided GW2 won't be one of these. And if anything, fractals are a solid example how tiered difficulties fail.

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @runeblade.7514 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @runeblade.7514 said:

    @Xantaria.8726 said:

    @runeblade.7514 said:

    The same way I expect a new fractal player ease into fractals. The new fractal/raiders you described will not learn anything you outlined. But they will learn to defeat the mechanic of raids/fractals at a lower difficulty or never ascend to higher difficulty.

    I don't care if a T4 player doesn't know what Heartseeker is. As long as he knows how to beat the fractal, that is all that matters.

    w1
    Which most players in t4 dont. We already have threads where people report that its actual even getting worse, with many of them having no idea how the mechanics work. Which propably comes from the simple reason that you can buy yourself into t4 buy buying infusions from the tp and you can get asc gear from either crafting, collections, lw3+4 maps and wvw/pvp. Many just skip the first tiers. Unless a solution like you cant enter a higher fractal then the one your own lvl is currently i dont see any sign of change in that behavior.
    Completly besides the point that raids are taking to long already.

    It doesn't feel T4 pugs got bad to me. Whether its true or not, That player climbed his way to t4. He bought the gear and infusion with the gold he earned. I won't deny him t4.

    However, if I was in his pug, I would either kick him or leave; The same way I expect from a hard mode raid. But this time, t1-t3 is always available to him to learn at an easier difficulty if he feels t4 is too hard. Meanwhile, Fractal players won't require him to ping his 250 Pristine Fractal relics just to join but, If t4 do start to do something like that right now, then t1-t3 is there for him.

    As someone who plays (and pugs) fractals daily, allow me to disagree. There's a reason I always look for at least 100-150 kp groups who do full runs, cms included. And the reason isn't the extra reward, it's the avoided clown fiesta. The average T4 pug is quite terrible to be honest. Yes, you can manage to clear the daily fractals this way, too, but it takes considerably longer and more often than not is more annoying than fun.

    And the thing is, the existence of the lower tiers doesn't really do anything for the progression, except delay it. The players who end up playing the "t4+cm" tier don't reach there because they had the lower tiers to "prepare". Lower tiers do nothing to prepare you. Even t4 doesn't do even remotely enough to prepare you for the cms. The players who end up playing in the top tier are simply those who like this particular form of fun - challenging group content. They, too, were playing new bosses they didn't know. They, too, wiped time and again. But they had the mindset to persist and master the challenge, so they did. No amount of easier tiers will make a player who doesn't like challenging content do well in one.

    Exactly the same holds true for raids.

    Fractals is designed so that T4 players had to play T1-T2-T3 in order to get to T4, no matter how much they spent money on Agony infusion and Ascended Gear. So they had to experience all the lower tiers multiple times. So I am very skeptical of people trying to say T4 players don't know how Fractals work. I really doubt that the "vast" majority of bad fractal players that you guys exist and, the claim that the very same bad players just want to get into T4 for "a challenging experience" is just so nonsensical, I can't figure out how you actually believe that.

    I don't have to believe anything. I know it for certain because it is my own experience. I never said the players in T4 don't know how the fractals work. They don't know how an efficient teams work. It is not the same. And the sad part is, they don't know a thing about proper teamplay because fractals never forced them to learn it. Time and again I see this - people only learn to perform as well as it is requested of them.

  • Tails.9372Tails.9372 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I like how fractals handle difficulty / split the more casual parts of the "playerbase" from "the rest". Raids should take a similar approach.

  • We need both easy and hard modes

    Coming from world of warcraft, this is my own personal experience. I do not have time to commit to a raid schedule and always felt left out. Not other's fault but I know that I'm no where near alone in this regard. I started doing LFR and enjoyed it but I also wanted that sweet loot. I considered LFR a stepping stone to learning raids. I put in time when I could and started raiding with my guild on normal modes on Sundays. Eventually I became back up for mythic raids and earned the loot I wanted. It took longer (a lot) to get there but I wouldn't have if I didn't have LFR to get over the anxiety of learning abit about the raid and getting confident enough to try the next step up in difficulty.

  • Lonami.2987Lonami.2987 Member ✭✭✭
    We need both easy and hard modes

    Are you guys ready for another raid wing full of events instead of bosses?

    Escort and River are so great! Raids are such challenging content! /s

  • Grogba.6204Grogba.6204 Member ✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    Indeed, and here we are, almost on page 100 to make said challenging content even easier/more braindead. /s

  • sigur.9453sigur.9453 Member ✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Lonami.2987 said:
    Are you guys ready for another raid wing full of events instead of bosses?

    Escort and River are so great! Raids are such challenging content! /s

    are you saying that there are bosses/events with different difficult levels?
    huh,who would have thought.

  • We need both easy and hard modes

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Xerxes.2468 said:
    I've always been of the opinion that no game needs a tier of content that only the hardcore element gets to see. This is important to this game since it decided not to continue to add dungeon content. I feel like fractals are ok but an imperfect solution to 5 man content at best. Varied difficulties with more/better rewards as you go up are fine.

    Your opinion is easy to refute. There are players who seek hardcore challenge, therefore failing to provide that means you lose these players. There are many games for which that's fine. ANet, however, have decided GW2 won't be one of these. And if anything, fractals are a solid example how tiered difficulties fail.

    That's just another opinion. You didn't "refute" anything. Game design preference is not a matter of hard scientific facts. It's all opinions and preferences.

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Xerxes.2468 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Xerxes.2468 said:
    I've always been of the opinion that no game needs a tier of content that only the hardcore element gets to see. This is important to this game since it decided not to continue to add dungeon content. I feel like fractals are ok but an imperfect solution to 5 man content at best. Varied difficulties with more/better rewards as you go up are fine.

    Your opinion is easy to refute. There are players who seek hardcore challenge, therefore failing to provide that means you lose these players. There are many games for which that's fine. ANet, however, have decided GW2 won't be one of these. And if anything, fractals are a solid example how tiered difficulties fail.

    That's just another opinion. You didn't "refute" anything. Game design preference is not a matter of hard scientific facts. It's all opinions and preferences.

    No, it's not all opinions and preferences. Not only is there solid theory behind it, it is also a business. As such, its goal is market success, which is not a matter of opinion and preference. There are different ways to achieve this, there's no doubt about that. But some of there will be more successful than others, and there's no doubt about it either.

  • We need both easy and hard modes

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Xerxes.2468 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Xerxes.2468 said:
    I've always been of the opinion that no game needs a tier of content that only the hardcore element gets to see. This is important to this game since it decided not to continue to add dungeon content. I feel like fractals are ok but an imperfect solution to 5 man content at best. Varied difficulties with more/better rewards as you go up are fine.

    Your opinion is easy to refute. There are players who seek hardcore challenge, therefore failing to provide that means you lose these players. There are many games for which that's fine. ANet, however, have decided GW2 won't be one of these. And if anything, fractals are a solid example how tiered difficulties fail.

    That's just another opinion. You didn't "refute" anything. Game design preference is not a matter of hard scientific facts. It's all opinions and preferences.

    No, it's not all opinions and preferences. Not only is there solid theory behind it, it is also a business. As such, its goal is market success, which is not a matter of opinion and preference. There are different ways to achieve this, there's no doubt about that. But some of there will be more successful than others, and there's no doubt about it either.

    Do you own a bunch of stock in the company or something? They don't need you to white knight for their marketing decisions and quarterly earnings. The poll was literally "what would you prefer?". That's a question about preference and opinion. My job is not praise every last decision made by the devs. It's their game, they're free to do what they want with my criticism.

    I'm all for having a hardcore mode that gives better rewards, but if some people were really going to get bent out shape and leave because lower difficulty setting existed for people to see content and learn mechanics, I don't really care. Warcraft isn't losing all its mythic raiders because normal and heroic modes exist. More content accessable to more people in some fashion means more active players.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 19, 2018
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Xerxes.2468 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Xerxes.2468 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Xerxes.2468 said:
    I've always been of the opinion that no game needs a tier of content that only the hardcore element gets to see. This is important to this game since it decided not to continue to add dungeon content. I feel like fractals are ok but an imperfect solution to 5 man content at best. Varied difficulties with more/better rewards as you go up are fine.

    Your opinion is easy to refute. There are players who seek hardcore challenge, therefore failing to provide that means you lose these players. There are many games for which that's fine. ANet, however, have decided GW2 won't be one of these. And if anything, fractals are a solid example how tiered difficulties fail.

    That's just another opinion. You didn't "refute" anything. Game design preference is not a matter of hard scientific facts. It's all opinions and preferences.

    No, it's not all opinions and preferences. Not only is there solid theory behind it, it is also a business. As such, its goal is market success, which is not a matter of opinion and preference. There are different ways to achieve this, there's no doubt about that. But some of there will be more successful than others, and there's no doubt about it either.

    Do you own a bunch of stock in the company or something? They don't need you to white knight for their marketing decisions and quarterly earnings. The poll was literally "what would you prefer?". That's a question about preference and opinion. My job is not praise every last decision made by the devs. It's their game, they're free to do what they want with my criticism.

    Good point, but keeping a reality check and realistic mindset when it comes to suggestions, expectations and possibilities keeps one from asking for nonsense or look all to stupid.

    @Xerxes.2468 said:
    I'm all for having a hardcore mode that gives better rewards, but if some people were really going to get bent out shape and leave because lower difficulty setting existed for people to see content and learn mechanics, I don't really care. Warcraft isn't losing all its mythic raiders because normal and heroic modes exist. More content accessable to more people in some fashion means more active players.

    Please don't bring WoW into this discussion again, or be prepared to get refuted heavily on their approach to LFR including by me.

    Go read through this thread to be informed why the WoW LFR approach does and would not fit GW2. The reasons are many fold and reach as far as not working with the very basic itemisation this has versus Wows.

    WoW isn't losing it's mythic raiders true, but you also fail to show how LFR specifically has in any way improved the mythic raiding community (or raiding community as a whole) . There is enough differing opinions on that issue alone. Some even from the developers themselves who were not necessarily happy with introducing LFR.

  • We need an easy mode, but not a hard mode

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    WoW isn't losing it's mythic raiders true, but you also fail to show how LFR specifically has in any way improved the mythic raiding community (or raiding community as a whole) .

    Oh, that one is simple. It "improved" the raiding community by allowing it to exist. WoW may be a raid-focused game, but it stays afloat only thanks to more casual players. True, many raiders don't want to acknowledge it, but in the end they wouldn't want to raid in a dead game either. Even if it wasn't just simply shut down.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Miellyn.6847Miellyn.6847 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 19, 2018
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    WoW isn't losing it's mythic raiders true, but you also fail to show how LFR specifically has in any way improved the mythic raiding community (or raiding community as a whole) .

    Oh, that one is simple. It "improved" the raiding community by allowing it to exist. WoW may be a raid-focused game, but it stays afloat only thanks to more casual players. True, many raiders don't want to acknowledge it, but in the end they wouldn't want to raid in a dead game either. Even if it wasn't just simply shut down.

    You still need to prove how a comparison between an instanced/raid focused game and an open world focused game has any relevance to this discussion.
    WoW had a healthy population and it's population peak without LFR existing. LFR does not allow raiding to exist. We have the exact same system WoW had during it's population peak.

    Most people won't play raids with an easy mode either. The majority just doesn't care about instanced content. As long as it isn't LFR-like with an auto-grouping system you will still only reach a small minority. The casual playstil involves that most don't bother with group searching. That is one reason GW2 is successful, open world with spontaneous participation. LFR won't work with the mechanics involved in raids, the stats people are running and the class system. We don't have explicit tank, healer, DPS.

  • KGS.9842KGS.9842 Member ✭✭
    edited September 19, 2018
    We need a hard mode, but not an easy mode

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    WoW isn't losing it's mythic raiders true, but you also fail to show how LFR specifically has in any way improved the mythic raiding community (or raiding community as a whole) .

    Oh, that one is simple. It "improved" the raiding community by allowing it to exist. WoW may be a raid-focused game, but it stays afloat only thanks to more casual players. True, many raiders don't want to acknowledge it, but in the end they wouldn't want to raid in a dead game either. Even if it wasn't just simply shut down.

    Well that "existence" it has allowed is a far cry from a real raiding community. You don't have to organize anything with anybody, you can ignore the boss mechanics, and when you wipe you just get buffed (https://wow.gamepedia.com/Determination) so you have 0 incentive to improve and 0 difficulty to overcome.

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Xerxes.2468 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Xerxes.2468 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Xerxes.2468 said:
    I've always been of the opinion that no game needs a tier of content that only the hardcore element gets to see. This is important to this game since it decided not to continue to add dungeon content. I feel like fractals are ok but an imperfect solution to 5 man content at best. Varied difficulties with more/better rewards as you go up are fine.

    Your opinion is easy to refute. There are players who seek hardcore challenge, therefore failing to provide that means you lose these players. There are many games for which that's fine. ANet, however, have decided GW2 won't be one of these. And if anything, fractals are a solid example how tiered difficulties fail.

    That's just another opinion. You didn't "refute" anything. Game design preference is not a matter of hard scientific facts. It's all opinions and preferences.

    No, it's not all opinions and preferences. Not only is there solid theory behind it, it is also a business. As such, its goal is market success, which is not a matter of opinion and preference. There are different ways to achieve this, there's no doubt about that. But some of there will be more successful than others, and there's no doubt about it either.

    Do you own a bunch of stock in the company or something? They don't need you to white knight for their marketing decisions and quarterly earnings. The poll was literally "what would you prefer?". That's a question about preference and opinion. My job is not praise every last decision made by the devs. It's their game, they're free to do what they want with my criticism.

    "What would you prefer" is a meaningless question, except if what you really are interested into is the personalities of the people answering. If this is the case, then please accept my apologies, I didn't mean to ruin your fun. I assumed people here are actually interested in the actual decisions made in the actual game, together with the reasons why. They, too, are free to do what they want with my criticism.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    WoW isn't losing it's mythic raiders true, but you also fail to show how LFR specifically has in any way improved the mythic raiding community (or raiding community as a whole) .

    Oh, that one is simple. It "improved" the raiding community by allowing it to exist. WoW may be a raid-focused game, but it stays afloat only thanks to more casual players. True, many raiders don't want to acknowledge it, but in the end they wouldn't want to raid in a dead game either. Even if it wasn't just simply shut down.

    I will agree to many things that LFR did, I will not agree that it expanded the raiding community if raiding is supposed to be challenging content which one is to overcome as a group of players.

    What LFR did for WoW:

    • allow easy distribution of meaningless gear to a majority of the player base

    • give a majority of players a feeling that they are part of larger collective working together to overcome challenge while at the same te removing actual challenge and requirements

    • focus the game a lot more on raid content and making raids an integral part of both story and item progression (until they introduced mythic+ dungeons to allow people to NOT raid but still get their gear)

    • make grouping easy as pushing one button while removing all interaction between players. People are literally playing "group" content without in any way interacting with each other

    So are you willing to take all the bad with the good? Are we going to make raids story centric and required? Are we going to reduce rewards far enough for a GW2 LFR so they are on the same level as Wows?

  • Linken.6345Linken.6345 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    WoW isn't losing it's mythic raiders true, but you also fail to show how LFR specifically has in any way improved the mythic raiding community (or raiding community as a whole) .

    Oh, that one is simple. It "improved" the raiding community by allowing it to exist. WoW may be a raid-focused game, but it stays afloat only thanks to more casual players. True, many raiders don't want to acknowledge it, but in the end they wouldn't want to raid in a dead game either. Even if it wasn't just simply shut down.

    I will agree to many things that LFR did, I will not agree that it expanded the raiding community if raiding is supposed to be challenging content which one is to overcome as a group of players.

    What LFR did for WoW:

    • allow easy distribution of meaningless gear to a majority of the player base

    • give a majority of players a feeling that they are part of larger collective working together to overcome challenge while at the same te removing actual challenge and requirements

    • focus the game a lot more on raid content and making raids an integral part of both story and item progression (until they introduced mythic+ dungeons to allow people to NOT raid but still get their gear)

    • make grouping easy as pushing one button while removing all interaction between players. People are literally playing "group" content without in any way interacting with each other

    So are you willing to take all the bad with the good? Are we going to make raids story centric and required? Are we going to reduce rewards far enough for a GW2 LFR so they are on the same level as Wows?

    Well be ready for 1 blue and 2 green as reward with rare being the precursor level exception from lfr gw2 bosses =)

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @Linken.6345 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    WoW isn't losing it's mythic raiders true, but you also fail to show how LFR specifically has in any way improved the mythic raiding community (or raiding community as a whole) .

    Oh, that one is simple. It "improved" the raiding community by allowing it to exist. WoW may be a raid-focused game, but it stays afloat only thanks to more casual players. True, many raiders don't want to acknowledge it, but in the end they wouldn't want to raid in a dead game either. Even if it wasn't just simply shut down.

    I will agree to many things that LFR did, I will not agree that it expanded the raiding community if raiding is supposed to be challenging content which one is to overcome as a group of players.

    What LFR did for WoW:

    • allow easy distribution of meaningless gear to a majority of the player base

    • give a majority of players a feeling that they are part of larger collective working together to overcome challenge while at the same te removing actual challenge and requirements

    • focus the game a lot more on raid content and making raids an integral part of both story and item progression (until they introduced mythic+ dungeons to allow people to NOT raid but still get their gear)

    • make grouping easy as pushing one button while removing all interaction between players. People are literally playing "group" content without in any way interacting with each other

    So are you willing to take all the bad with the good? Are we going to make raids story centric and required? Are we going to reduce rewards far enough for a GW2 LFR so they are on the same level as Wows?

    Well be ready for 1 blue and 2 green as reward with rare being the precursor level exception from lfr gw2 bosses =)

    Honestly you could throw in a few rares per boss and people would probably run it. Add a few extra achievements. Leave all the Legendary stuff for the normal mode.

  • Warscythes.9307Warscythes.9307 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 19, 2018
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Linken.6345 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    WoW isn't losing it's mythic raiders true, but you also fail to show how LFR specifically has in any way improved the mythic raiding community (or raiding community as a whole) .

    Oh, that one is simple. It "improved" the raiding community by allowing it to exist. WoW may be a raid-focused game, but it stays afloat only thanks to more casual players. True, many raiders don't want to acknowledge it, but in the end they wouldn't want to raid in a dead game either. Even if it wasn't just simply shut down.

    I will agree to many things that LFR did, I will not agree that it expanded the raiding community if raiding is supposed to be challenging content which one is to overcome as a group of players.

    What LFR did for WoW:

    • allow easy distribution of meaningless gear to a majority of the player base

    • give a majority of players a feeling that they are part of larger collective working together to overcome challenge while at the same te removing actual challenge and requirements

    • focus the game a lot more on raid content and making raids an integral part of both story and item progression (until they introduced mythic+ dungeons to allow people to NOT raid but still get their gear)

    • make grouping easy as pushing one button while removing all interaction between players. People are literally playing "group" content without in any way interacting with each other

    So are you willing to take all the bad with the good? Are we going to make raids story centric and required? Are we going to reduce rewards far enough for a GW2 LFR so they are on the same level as Wows?

    Well be ready for 1 blue and 2 green as reward with rare being the precursor level exception from lfr gw2 bosses =)

    Honestly you could throw in a few rares per boss and people would probably run it. Add a few extra achievements. Leave all the Legendary stuff for the normal mode.

    Wait oops read it wrong.

  • We need both easy and hard modes

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Xerxes.2468 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Xerxes.2468 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Xerxes.2468 said:
    I've always been of the opinion that no game needs a tier of content that only the hardcore element gets to see. This is important to this game since it decided not to continue to add dungeon content. I feel like fractals are ok but an imperfect solution to 5 man content at best. Varied difficulties with more/better rewards as you go up are fine.

    Your opinion is easy to refute. There are players who seek hardcore challenge, therefore failing to provide that means you lose these players. There are many games for which that's fine. ANet, however, have decided GW2 won't be one of these. And if anything, fractals are a solid example how tiered difficulties fail.

    That's just another opinion. You didn't "refute" anything. Game design preference is not a matter of hard scientific facts. It's all opinions and preferences.

    No, it's not all opinions and preferences. Not only is there solid theory behind it, it is also a business. As such, its goal is market success, which is not a matter of opinion and preference. There are different ways to achieve this, there's no doubt about that. But some of there will be more successful than others, and there's no doubt about it either.

    Do you own a bunch of stock in the company or something? They don't need you to white knight for their marketing decisions and quarterly earnings. The poll was literally "what would you prefer?". That's a question about preference and opinion. My job is not praise every last decision made by the devs. It's their game, they're free to do what they want with my criticism.

    Good point, but keeping a reality check and realistic mindset when it comes to suggestions, expectations and possibilities keeps one from asking for nonsense or look all to stupid.

    @Xerxes.2468 said:
    I'm all for having a hardcore mode that gives better rewards, but if some people were really going to get bent out shape and leave because lower difficulty setting existed for people to see content and learn mechanics, I don't really care. Warcraft isn't losing all its mythic raiders because normal and heroic modes exist. More content accessable to more people in some fashion means more active players.

    Please don't bring WoW into this discussion again, or be prepared to get refuted heavily on their approach to LFR including by me.

    Go read through this thread to be informed why the WoW LFR approach does and would not fit GW2. The reasons are many fold and reach as far as not working with the very basic itemisation this has versus Wows.

    WoW isn't losing it's mythic raiders true, but you also fail to show how LFR specifically has in any way improved the mythic raiding community (or raiding community as a whole) . There is enough differing opinions on that issue alone. Some even from the developers themselves who were not necessarily happy with introducing LFR.

    I missed the part where I suggested they put LFR in. I don't like LFR, and I don't like when people straw man my points. I was just talking about having a couple of difficulty tiers to cater to more of the game's community since they puta great deal of their resources into raids, that's it. I was responding to the question posed by the thread and stating my preference. It may not be yours and that's fine. I wasn't looking for approval.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @Xerxes.2468 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Xerxes.2468 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Xerxes.2468 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Xerxes.2468 said:
    I've always been of the opinion that no game needs a tier of content that only the hardcore element gets to see. This is important to this game since it decided not to continue to add dungeon content. I feel like fractals are ok but an imperfect solution to 5 man content at best. Varied difficulties with more/better rewards as you go up are fine.

    Your opinion is easy to refute. There are players who seek hardcore challenge, therefore failing to provide that means you lose these players. There are many games for which that's fine. ANet, however, have decided GW2 won't be one of these. And if anything, fractals are a solid example how tiered difficulties fail.

    That's just another opinion. You didn't "refute" anything. Game design preference is not a matter of hard scientific facts. It's all opinions and preferences.

    No, it's not all opinions and preferences. Not only is there solid theory behind it, it is also a business. As such, its goal is market success, which is not a matter of opinion and preference. There are different ways to achieve this, there's no doubt about that. But some of there will be more successful than others, and there's no doubt about it either.

    Do you own a bunch of stock in the company or something? They don't need you to white knight for their marketing decisions and quarterly earnings. The poll was literally "what would you prefer?". That's a question about preference and opinion. My job is not praise every last decision made by the devs. It's their game, they're free to do what they want with my criticism.

    Good point, but keeping a reality check and realistic mindset when it comes to suggestions, expectations and possibilities keeps one from asking for nonsense or look all to stupid.

    @Xerxes.2468 said:
    I'm all for having a hardcore mode that gives better rewards, but if some people were really going to get bent out shape and leave because lower difficulty setting existed for people to see content and learn mechanics, I don't really care. Warcraft isn't losing all its mythic raiders because normal and heroic modes exist. More content accessable to more people in some fashion means more active players.

    Please don't bring WoW into this discussion again, or be prepared to get refuted heavily on their approach to LFR including by me.

    Go read through this thread to be informed why the WoW LFR approach does and would not fit GW2. The reasons are many fold and reach as far as not working with the very basic itemisation this has versus Wows.

    WoW isn't losing it's mythic raiders true, but you also fail to show how LFR specifically has in any way improved the mythic raiding community (or raiding community as a whole) . There is enough differing opinions on that issue alone. Some even from the developers themselves who were not necessarily happy with introducing LFR.

    I missed the part where I suggested they put LFR in. I don't like LFR, and I don't like when people straw man my points. I was just talking about having a couple of difficulty tiers to cater to more of the game's community since they puta great deal of their resources into raids, that's it. I was responding to the question posed by the thread and stating my preference. It may not be yours and that's fine. I wasn't looking for approval.

    I have to agree, they do put in a lot of resources into these boss designs and raids.The monster design looks great. It’s a shame more people aren’t experiencing it. Perhaps it would be an added addition once there are few more raid wings.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 21, 2018
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Xerxes.2468 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Xerxes.2468 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Xerxes.2468 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Xerxes.2468 said:
    I've always been of the opinion that no game needs a tier of content that only the hardcore element gets to see. This is important to this game since it decided not to continue to add dungeon content. I feel like fractals are ok but an imperfect solution to 5 man content at best. Varied difficulties with more/better rewards as you go up are fine.

    Your opinion is easy to refute. There are players who seek hardcore challenge, therefore failing to provide that means you lose these players. There are many games for which that's fine. ANet, however, have decided GW2 won't be one of these. And if anything, fractals are a solid example how tiered difficulties fail.

    That's just another opinion. You didn't "refute" anything. Game design preference is not a matter of hard scientific facts. It's all opinions and preferences.

    No, it's not all opinions and preferences. Not only is there solid theory behind it, it is also a business. As such, its goal is market success, which is not a matter of opinion and preference. There are different ways to achieve this, there's no doubt about that. But some of there will be more successful than others, and there's no doubt about it either.

    Do you own a bunch of stock in the company or something? They don't need you to white knight for their marketing decisions and quarterly earnings. The poll was literally "what would you prefer?". That's a question about preference and opinion. My job is not praise every last decision made by the devs. It's their game, they're free to do what they want with my criticism.

    Good point, but keeping a reality check and realistic mindset when it comes to suggestions, expectations and possibilities keeps one from asking for nonsense or look all to stupid.

    @Xerxes.2468 said:
    I'm all for having a hardcore mode that gives better rewards, but if some people were really going to get bent out shape and leave because lower difficulty setting existed for people to see content and learn mechanics, I don't really care. Warcraft isn't losing all its mythic raiders because normal and heroic modes exist. More content accessable to more people in some fashion means more active players.

    Please don't bring WoW into this discussion again, or be prepared to get refuted heavily on their approach to LFR including by me.

    Go read through this thread to be informed why the WoW LFR approach does and would not fit GW2. The reasons are many fold and reach as far as not working with the very basic itemisation this has versus Wows.

    WoW isn't losing it's mythic raiders true, but you also fail to show how LFR specifically has in any way improved the mythic raiding community (or raiding community as a whole) . There is enough differing opinions on that issue alone. Some even from the developers themselves who were not necessarily happy with introducing LFR.

    I missed the part where I suggested they put LFR in. I don't like LFR, and I don't like when people straw man my points. I was just talking about having a couple of difficulty tiers to cater to more of the game's community since they puta great deal of their resources into raids, that's it. I was responding to the question posed by the thread and stating my preference. It may not be yours and that's fine. I wasn't looking for approval.

    How much easier is raid content supposed to get according to you then? It's possible to clear all raids with pick up groups and no voice communication and not even max level gear, how much down does it have to go eaier so people are happy with the difficulty? Once easier raids are introduced, who says the reduction in difficulty will be enough? What's with the next wave of people who consider easy raids still to hard (similar to how some consider T1 fractals a challenge)?

    One of the major flaws people keep bringing up with easy mode raids is: the actual difficulty of raids is already low (with 1 exception being Dhuum which might be en par with heroic raids in WoW). We are already on normal mode raid level compared to most other MMOs. Going any lower is basically asking for LFR level of difficulty.

    Hence my arguing against LFR since you conveniently brought up WoW to make a point. GW2 raids are approximately normal mode WoW raids, some bosses easier and some slightly harder. Where do we go from here?

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭
    We need both easy and hard modes

    The word easy means different things to different people.

  • We need an easy mode, but not a hard mode

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    How much easier is raid content supposed to get according to you then? It's possible to clear all raids with pick up groups and no voice communication and not even max level gear, how much down does it have to go eaier so people are happy with the difficulty? Once easier raids are introduced, who says the reduction in difficulty will be enough? What's with the next wave of people who consider easy raids still to hard (similar to how some consider T1 fractals a challenge)?

    One of the major flaws people keep bringing up with easy mode raids is: the actual difficulty of raids is already low (with 1 exception being Dhuum which might be en par with heroic raids in WoW). We are already on normal mode raid level compared to most other MMOs. Going any lower is basically asking for LFR level of difficulty.

    Hence my arguing against LFR since you conveniently brought up WoW to make a point. GW2 raids are approximately normal mode WoW raids, some bosses easier and some slightly harder. Where do we go from here?

    The problem with difficulty is that there's just way too much difference between top skilled groups and the average players (and not even average out of the whole game, but average raiders). Have you seen the dhuum cm challenge with budget (under 3g per person) gear? The group that did it had better dps than average, experienced raiders in full BiS gear. That creates a massive problem - anything that will be a challenge for the first group, will be prohibitively hard to the second (and completely out of the question for over half of the raiding community, not to mention everyone else). And what the first group considers easy might be anything but that for everyone else.

    That's why we need different dificulty tiers. Because the skill spread is so big one tier is never going to encompass it, even if we're already limiting it to, say, top 10%.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    How much easier is raid content supposed to get according to you then? It's possible to clear all raids with pick up groups and no voice communication and not even max level gear, how much down does it have to go eaier so people are happy with the difficulty? Once easier raids are introduced, who says the reduction in difficulty will be enough? What's with the next wave of people who consider easy raids still to hard (similar to how some consider T1 fractals a challenge)?

    One of the major flaws people keep bringing up with easy mode raids is: the actual difficulty of raids is already low (with 1 exception being Dhuum which might be en par with heroic raids in WoW). We are already on normal mode raid level compared to most other MMOs. Going any lower is basically asking for LFR level of difficulty.

    Hence my arguing against LFR since you conveniently brought up WoW to make a point. GW2 raids are approximately normal mode WoW raids, some bosses easier and some slightly harder. Where do we go from here?

    The problem with difficulty is that there's just way too much difference between top skilled groups and the average players (and not even average out of the whole game, but average raiders). Have you seen the dhuum cm challenge with budget (under 3g per person) gear? The group that did it had better dps than average, experienced raiders in full BiS gear. That creates a massive problem - anything that will be a challenge for the first group, will be prohibitively hard to the second (and completely out of the question for over half of the raiding community, not to mention everyone else). And what the first group considers easy might be anything but that for everyone else.

    That's why we need different dificulty tiers. Because the skill spread is so big one tier is never going to encompass it, even if we're already limiting it to, say, top 10%.

    That's were I disagree.

    I believe we need better preparation and in game activities which prepare people for raids as well as better grouping and LFG options.

    The question this boils down to is:
    Should raid content be complete-able by any player of any skill level or should a certain minimum skill requirement remain.

    Questions of secondary nature are resulting from this primary question:

    • How would this get implemented reward wise?
    • What is the lowest tier of player skill which we should aim for?
    • How many difficulties are required?
    • How would fracturing the already small raid community affect raids?
    • Should raid exclusive rewards be made available via other methods?
    • How many resources need to get devoted to this game mode?
    • etc.

    In direct comparison with other games raids are simple and there is even raid bosses in this game which are dwarfed by normal dungeon bosses in other MMOs. That is not a matter of opinion or spread, it's a simple observable fact by comparison of required skills in order to succeed. Raids in this game are easy. The fact that a vast majority of the player base is absolutely incompetent is a mistake which has been carried down since launch.

    I believe with correct incentives and opportunities players can be taught (as has been shown thousands of times in practice runs) and prepared to approach challenging content via in game activities. I have asked for this for over 1 year by now in other threads as well were I was vocal about getting a proper training campaign or mission which teaches players the basics (combo fields, crowd control, dodging, etc.).

    Making raids easier at this point is a terrible band-aid on a problem of game design and will not help in the long run. No one who completes a LFR difficulty level raid will stick with it in the long-run. There is no challenge and if there is no itemization incentive to lure people to play this trivial content, it will die out while costing developer resources which could have been spent on actually addressing the problem.

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 21, 2018
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    I almost always agree to your posts, Cyninja but in this case I'm going with Astralporing. You won't get the average GW2 player out of his/her comfort zone. By it's core design it was never the goal to have a - I would say - "competent focus" challenging content. Although it also wasn't just made for relaxed gaming only I'm seeing that nowadays there's a lot of content the average player isn't going to see ever that is to say six wings packed with decent to cool designed bosses (just my opinion). With fractals they have a chance to see actual group content via T1.
    Therefore I'm still pleading for an easy mode but my terms and conditions still stay clearly:

    • No Legendary Insights/Divinations
    • No Ascended Drops/Minis/Raid specific drops
    • No unlocking of Legendary Armor/Ring collection
    • Hand out a rare and some blue/green stuffs
    • Allow unlocking HoT raid mastery
      etc.

    Of course this shouldn't lie on the shoulders of the raid + fractal dev team which already seems to be in an unhealthy state to me (the raid release does not allow a different evaluation). Do not fire the LS dev team which was responsible for "Domain of Kourna" - just take them away from LS developing so things don't go bad/worse there and let them tune down the actual raids for one-time-experiences for all the players not wanting/being able to raid the regular ones. You won't silence the hardcore crybabies but those who are interested in lore, the design and the "feeling of being epic" without actually being it.

    Edit: My opinion hasn't changed (that much) as people can see in previous threads and in this one. Rewards still shouldn't be toned down!

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    I'm not against easy modes because I enjoy making life harder on players.

    I am against easy mode because the extra development resources going into this kind of content are valuable. If Arenanet came out right now and told us:"Guys, we are doubling the fractal/raid team to allow for easy mode development so you should not see any change in release cadence." I'd be a lot more open to this kind of idea (and still believe there would be better approaches to get people into raiding). Knowing that this will not happen I see this as wasted resources.

    I would rather they spend resources on trying to improve the overall performance via new tutorials than adding an unnecessary mode. That way players would have a choice to improve their game play if so desired and get prepared for multiple game modes instead of having to run practice raids for easy and normal mode.

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    I'm not against easy modes because I enjoy making life harder on players.

    I am against easy mode because the extra development resources going into this kind of content are valuable. If Arenanet came out right now and told us:"Guys, we are doubling the fractal/raid team to allow for easy mode development so you should not see any change in release cadence." I'd be a lot more open to this kind of idea (and still believe there would be better approaches to get people into raiding). Knowing that this will not happen I see this as wasted resources.

    I would rather they spend resources on trying to improve the overall performance via new tutorials than adding an unnecessary mode. That way players would have a choice to improve their game play if so desired and get prepared for multiple game modes instead of having to run practice raids for easy and normal mode.

    Can partially agree but in my opinion easy mode raids are the same wasted resources like a living world episode. We get some parts of story instances and most of the people play it once only to experience the lore. Afterwards there are only two things why you would replay it: 1. achievements and 2. to get the story done with alts. The latter is negligible for almost everyone and for the first one there could be achievements for an easy mode as well. Sure, with my proposal we would get one map less but in the end I think players can live with that in case of a map like Kourna.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Vinceman.4572 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    I'm not against easy modes because I enjoy making life harder on players.

    I am against easy mode because the extra development resources going into this kind of content are valuable. If Arenanet came out right now and told us:"Guys, we are doubling the fractal/raid team to allow for easy mode development so you should not see any change in release cadence." I'd be a lot more open to this kind of idea (and still believe there would be better approaches to get people into raiding). Knowing that this will not happen I see this as wasted resources.

    I would rather they spend resources on trying to improve the overall performance via new tutorials than adding an unnecessary mode. That way players would have a choice to improve their game play if so desired and get prepared for multiple game modes instead of having to run practice raids for easy and normal mode.

    Can partially agree but in my opinion easy mode raids are the same wasted resources like a living world episode. We get some parts of story instances and most of the people play it once only to experience the lore. Afterwards there are only two things why you would replay it: 1. achievements and 2. to get the story done with alts. The latter is negligible for almost everyone and for the first one there could be achievements for an easy mode as well. Sure, with my proposal we would get one map less but in the end I think players can live with that in case of a map like Kourna.

    Sure, I guess we'll have to wait and see how this gets approached overall. Developing more raid modes creates a bigger focus on the game mode after all, not sure every one advocating for easy mode raids would end up being happy with such a change but then again sometimes one should be careful what one wishes for.

  • Linken.6345Linken.6345 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 21, 2018

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Xerxes.2468 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Xerxes.2468 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Xerxes.2468 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Xerxes.2468 said:
    I've always been of the opinion that no game needs a tier of content that only the hardcore element gets to see. This is important to this game since it decided not to continue to add dungeon content. I feel like fractals are ok but an imperfect solution to 5 man content at best. Varied difficulties with more/better rewards as you go up are fine.

    Your opinion is easy to refute. There are players who seek hardcore challenge, therefore failing to provide that means you lose these players. There are many games for which that's fine. ANet, however, have decided GW2 won't be one of these. And if anything, fractals are a solid example how tiered difficulties fail.

    That's just another opinion. You didn't "refute" anything. Game design preference is not a matter of hard scientific facts. It's all opinions and preferences.

    No, it's not all opinions and preferences. Not only is there solid theory behind it, it is also a business. As such, its goal is market success, which is not a matter of opinion and preference. There are different ways to achieve this, there's no doubt about that. But some of there will be more successful than others, and there's no doubt about it either.

    Do you own a bunch of stock in the company or something? They don't need you to white knight for their marketing decisions and quarterly earnings. The poll was literally "what would you prefer?". That's a question about preference and opinion. My job is not praise every last decision made by the devs. It's their game, they're free to do what they want with my criticism.

    Good point, but keeping a reality check and realistic mindset when it comes to suggestions, expectations and possibilities keeps one from asking for nonsense or look all to stupid.

    @Xerxes.2468 said:
    I'm all for having a hardcore mode that gives better rewards, but if some people were really going to get bent out shape and leave because lower difficulty setting existed for people to see content and learn mechanics, I don't really care. Warcraft isn't losing all its mythic raiders because normal and heroic modes exist. More content accessable to more people in some fashion means more active players.

    Please don't bring WoW into this discussion again, or be prepared to get refuted heavily on their approach to LFR including by me.

    Go read through this thread to be informed why the WoW LFR approach does and would not fit GW2. The reasons are many fold and reach as far as not working with the very basic itemisation this has versus Wows.

    WoW isn't losing it's mythic raiders true, but you also fail to show how LFR specifically has in any way improved the mythic raiding community (or raiding community as a whole) . There is enough differing opinions on that issue alone. Some even from the developers themselves who were not necessarily happy with introducing LFR.

    I missed the part where I suggested they put LFR in. I don't like LFR, and I don't like when people straw man my points. I was just talking about having a couple of difficulty tiers to cater to more of the game's community since they puta great deal of their resources into raids, that's it. I was responding to the question posed by the thread and stating my preference. It may not be yours and that's fine. I wasn't looking for approval.

    I have to agree, they do put in a lot of resources into these boss designs and raids.The monster design looks great. It’s a shame more people aren’t experiencing it. Perhaps it would be an added addition once there are few more raid wings.

    They do use the boss mechanics in other areas bounties and fractals, I wouldent be suprised if more mechanics do wurm their way into those so people can recognize them when they start raiding.

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