Let's talk stealth — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Let's talk stealth

Hey there,

With the recent reworks of classes/E specs, perhaps one may hope for a revision of the mechanic stealth and its impact on the game.

At current, stealth is binary - you are invisible or not; you are countered by revealed or not.
Stealth adds a layer of surprise but doesn't give a good way to counter by that of it's binary nature.

I have a few suggestions that no doubt have been mentioned before considering this topic and stealth throughout the years. Criticism, additions or any feedback is certainly welcome.

Not long ago I was watching a streamer of Heroes of the Storm and it came to my attention that stealth characters work on a gradient of seen to outright invisible.
They are given a light outline of their location and movement which can be attacked by the player.
Something along these lines may indeed work well for guild wars 2.

If at base, within a 150-300 radius surrounding the player character an outline of the character in stealth; this outline shown would depend on the scale of stealth and the scale of reveal.

Scaling of stealth and reveal itself would certainly be based on the classes available to each.

Eg:

A thief would scale higher to stealth and have less of an outline than a warrior would.

A warrior would gain access to lesser scaling stealth but due to being a more open fighter, perhaps higher reveal scaling with 'on my mark'

Additional mechanics:

Ranger certainly brings another addition to the mix of stealth.
Camouflage and invisibility may indeed be one and the same.

Invisibility allows for hiding and for the scaling of stealth whilst camouflage allws for the highest scaling to be hidden from sight but breaks on first contact of combat.

Both of these could work in tandem with a dead eye in the manner of stalking the foe to make for maximum damage.
Cloaked in shadow as the mark builds and can then gain camouflage for enabling the single damaging shot of Death's Judgement.

This is all more or less theoretical in the hopes to draw discussion for way new way of making stealth and reveal work better across all classes that have access to it and allow for greater play and counter play when it comes to such game play.

Thank you for reading,

-Phyrak

Comments

  • ArchSecter.6571ArchSecter.6571 Member
    edited September 20, 2018

    This sounds a bit like the stealth mechanic in WoW and the one in HotS, which you referred to, but I have some questions about your suggestion. White asking I’ll draw some parallels with WoW and HotS.

    In WoW, stealth makes you slightly visible near an enemy, while also making the characteristic stealth sound when first getting in vicinity. This functions in WoW’s mostly stationary gameplay for Spellcasters for example, which creates some nice inter-class mechanics. Stealthed characters are also targetable in WoW.

    In HotS it’s much like WoW, except that stealthed characters can be seen at any distance in any visible area, but they also can’t be targeted, requiring AoE or reveals to attack them.

    In GW2, stealthed characters are completely invisible, making them difficult to counter by nature. But there’s a main difference between stealth in GW2 and the other two games. In GW2, stealth is only provided for a few seconds, providing a temporary respite for the character being stealthed, but also for the stealthed character’s opponent.

    In WoW and HotS, stealth is mostly permanent when outside of combat, but also rarely entered in the middle of combat. It is used as an initial mechanic, allowing a character to stalk an unwary opponent.

    In GW2, you can see the enemy when first approaching in the vicinity, which creates another dynamic, allowing the victim to better prepare because they’ll have seen them coming. In WoW you’re mostly unable to see them before they’re right next to you creating an immediate ambush.

    Another thing to shortly note is the role of teleports between GW2, WoW and HotS in relation to stealth. I won’t go too deep with this, but in WoW and HotS, stealth is mostly used to initiate combat, while in GW2, teleports (shadowstep) is used to initiate combat. Creating a more mobile combat experience which works well with seeing your opponent coming.

    Why do you think stealth in the other games are better? In what way? What do you think about the role of teleports? What about inter-class mechanics? I’d like to hear your thoughts on this.

  • @ArchSecter.6571 said:
    This sounds a bit like the stealth mechanic in WoW and the one in HotS, which you referred to, but I have some questions about your suggestion. White asking I’ll draw some parallels with WoW and HotS.

    In WoW, stealth makes you slightly visible near an enemy, while also making the characteristic stealth sound when first getting in vicinity. This functions in WoW’s mostly stationary gameplay for Spellcasters for example, which creates some nice inter-class mechanics. Stealthed characters are also targetable in WoW.

    In HotS it’s much like WoW, except that stealthed characters can be seen at any distance in any visible area, but they also can’t be targeted, requiring AoE or reveals to attack them.

    In GW2, stealthed characters are completely invisible, making them difficult to counter by nature. But there’s a main difference between stealth in GW2 and the other two games. In GW2, stealth is only provided for a few seconds, providing a temporary respite for the character being stealthed, but also for the stealthed character’s opponent.

    In WoW and HotS, stealth is mostly permanent when outside of combat, but also rarely entered in the middle of combat. It is used as an initial mechanic, allowing a character to stalk an unwary opponent.

    In GW2, you can see the enemy when first approaching in the vicinity, which creates another dynamic, allowing the victim to better prepare because they’ll have seen them coming. In WoW you’re mostly unable to see them before they’re right next to you creating an immediate ambush.

    Another thing to shortly note is the role of teleports between GW2, WoW and HotS in relation to stealth. I won’t go too deep with this, but in WoW and HotS, stealth is mostly used to initiate combat, while in GW2, teleports (shadowstep) is used to initiate combat. Creating a more mobile combat experience which works well with seeing your opponent coming.

    Why do you think stealth in the other games are better? In what way? What do you think about the role of teleports? What about inter-class mechanics? I’d like to hear your thoughts on this.

    I appreciate your knowledge and effort to post this :)

    I am not sure about stealth being better but I see stealth and stealth mechanics more as a predator prey relationship

    Teleport certainly adds an additional step to the mix - it in itself is a utility that can be used offensively or defensively depending on play. This too can be said about stealth.

    As for stealth itself;
    I think it would find a nice middle ground between the three examples depending on class and investment into the mechanic.
    Stalking pray, surprise attack or to disappear all have a place for the respective classes that have access to stealth.

  • derd.6413derd.6413 Member ✭✭✭✭

    dual posting i see

    I Have No friends, so I Must pug

  • @derd.6413 said:
    dual posting i see

    A little

    More or less to see what people think across the board

    When browsing a forum I tend to have a different mindset depending on the sub forum I am seeking

    Professions tend to seek more build craft thus, the second poster of this high lights this beautifully

    Where as general, there is more of a discussion about the necessity of such a rework

  • Perhaps ArenaNet could experiment with an elite specialization that has permanent gradual stealth outside of combat. It would certainly be interesting and add a lot more to the gameplay in PvP.

  • @ArchSecter.6571 said:
    Perhaps ArenaNet could experiment with an elite specialization that has permanent gradual stealth outside of combat. It would certainly be interesting and add a lot more to the gameplay in PvP.

    This hits the mark!

    Exactly what is needed

    Experimentation is what gave the joy of mounts we have today

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Phyrak.7260 said:

    @ArchSecter.6571 said:
    Perhaps ArenaNet could experiment with an elite specialization that has permanent gradual stealth outside of combat. It would certainly be interesting and add a lot more to the gameplay in PvP.

    This hits the mark!

    Exactly what is needed

    Experimentation is what gave the joy of mounts we have today

    Well thief already have perma stealth in and out of combat if he wants so not sure why...

    Dont look a gift Asura in the mouth.
    No seriously, dont. Shark teeth.

  • @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @Phyrak.7260 said:

    @ArchSecter.6571 said:
    Perhaps ArenaNet could experiment with an elite specialization that has permanent gradual stealth outside of combat. It would certainly be interesting and add a lot more to the gameplay in PvP.

    This hits the mark!

    Exactly what is needed

    Experimentation is what gave the joy of mounts we have today

    Well thief already have perma stealth in and out of combat if he wants so not sure why...

    Adding variety to stealth

    Giving it a gradient would allow for some detection provided the player is paying attention to their environment

  • Yannir.4132Yannir.4132 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 20, 2018

    I think Stealth would be a lot better as a mechanic if there was an audio when there is a stealthed opponent near you. The audio could be a lot more intense when the opponent is close as opposed to when they are far(1500) away. Maybe add in that you would only hear the sound when they have Line of Sight on you(when far away).

  • LupusLycaon.1570LupusLycaon.1570 Member
    edited September 20, 2018

    Here are some changes to the stealth mechanics I can think of. Note that I do not say that all of them should happen but that any combination (some exclude each other) of the following may improve the stealth counterplay.

    1. Change Thief stealth into Mesmer stealth which can not be stacked and adjust durations.
    2. Reduce maximum number of stealth stacks one can apply.
    3. Change stealth into a boon and reduce base durations so one needs boon duration for perma stealth. Corrupting stealth may or may not apply the reveal debuff. May or may not be shared by Signet of Inspiration.
    4. Hitting an invisible player makes him visible and targetable for a short time but does not remove stealth. This way one can better protect oneself from a stealthed player.
    5. Remove/change skills that remove the revealed debuff (Shadow Meld).
    6. Attacks from a stealthed player are not unblockable (Basilisk Venom, Deaths Judgement).

    Edit: Added skill names to clarify point 6 and 7.

  • @Yannir.4132 said:
    I think Stealth would be a lot better as a mechanic if there was an audio when there is a stealthed opponent near you. The audio could be a lot more intense when the opponent is close as opposed to when they are far(1500) away. Maybe add in that you would only hear the sound when they have Line of Sight on you(when far away).

    A simple little change like this could certainly help for counter play

    @LupusLycaon.1570 said:
    Here are some changes to the stealth mechanics I can think of. Note that I do not say that all of them should happen but that any combination (some exclude each other) of the following may improve the stealth counterplay.

    1. Change Thief stealth into Mesmer stealth which can not be stacked and adjust durations.
    2. Reduce maximum number of stealth stacks one can apply.
    3. Change stealth into a boon and reduce base durations so one needs boon duration for perma stealth. Corrupting stealth may or may not apply the reveal debuff. May or may not be shared by Signet of Inspiration.
    4. Hitting an invisible player makes him visible and targetable for a short time but does not remove stealth. This way one can better protect oneself from a stealthed player.
    5. Remove/change skills that remove the revealed debuff (Shadow Meld).
    6. Attacks from a stealthed player are not unblockable (Basilisk Venom, Deaths Judgement).

    Edit: Added skill names to clarify point 6 and 7.

    You have me intrigued by it being a book

    So just to clarify, longer lasting single stealth application (see Loki from Warframe)

    Then the benefits of stealth are that of ease of escape or alpha damage.

    This would certainly be an interesting way of doing the binary stealth mode