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Do raids need easy/normal/hard difficulty mode? [merged]


Lonami.2987

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@Tyson.5160 said:

@Xerxes.2468 said:I've always been of the opinion that no game needs a tier of content that only the hardcore element gets to see. This is important to this game since it decided not to continue to add dungeon content. I feel like fractals are ok but an imperfect solution to 5 man content at best. Varied difficulties with more/better rewards as you go up are fine.

Your opinion is easy to refute. There are players who seek hardcore challenge, therefore failing to provide that means you lose these players. There are many games for which that's fine. ANet, however, have decided GW2 won't be one of these. And if anything, fractals are a solid example how tiered difficulties fail.

That's just another opinion. You didn't "refute" anything. Game design preference is not a matter of hard scientific facts. It's all opinions and preferences.

No, it's not all opinions and preferences. Not only is there solid theory behind it, it is also a business. As such, its goal is market success, which is not a matter of opinion and preference. There are different ways to achieve this, there's no doubt about that. But some of there will be more successful than others, and there's no doubt about it either.

Do you own a bunch of stock in the company or something? They don't need you to white knight for their marketing decisions and quarterly earnings. The poll was literally "what would you prefer?". That's a question about preference and opinion. My job is not praise every last decision made by the devs. It's their game, they're free to do what they want with my criticism.

Good point, but keeping a reality check and realistic mindset when it comes to suggestions, expectations and possibilities keeps one from asking for nonsense or look all to stupid.

@Xerxes.2468 said:I'm all for having a hardcore mode that gives better rewards, but if some people were really going to get bent out shape and leave because lower difficulty setting existed for people to see content and learn mechanics, I don't really care. Warcraft isn't losing all its mythic raiders because normal and heroic modes exist. More content accessable to more people in some fashion means more active players.

Please don't bring WoW into this discussion again, or be prepared to get refuted heavily on their approach to LFR including by me.

Go read through this thread to be informed why the WoW LFR approach does and would not fit GW2. The reasons are many fold and reach as far as not working with the very basic itemisation this has versus Wows.

WoW isn't losing it's mythic raiders true, but you also fail to show how LFR specifically has in any way improved the mythic raiding community (or raiding community as a whole) . There is enough differing opinions on that issue alone. Some even from the developers themselves who were not necessarily happy with introducing LFR.

I missed the part where I suggested they put LFR in. I don't like LFR, and I don't like when people straw man my points. I was just talking about having a couple of difficulty tiers to cater to more of the game's community since they puta great deal of their resources into raids, that's it. I was responding to the question posed by the thread and stating my preference. It may not be yours and that's fine. I wasn't looking for approval.

I have to agree, they do put in a lot of resources into these boss designs and raids.The monster design looks great. It’s a shame more people aren’t experiencing it. Perhaps it would be an added addition once there are few more raid wings.

They do use the boss mechanics in other areas bounties and fractals, I wouldent be suprised if more mechanics do wurm their way into those so people can recognize them when they start raiding.

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In Wow doesn’t the lfr raid have a wipe buff so the more you wipe the easier it gets?

Couldn’t that potentially solve the different scaling of skill? Perhaps one group could finish the the boss with 2 stacks of a buff, while another might use 10. Then you could have people learning the boss better and better but not needing as many stacks of the buff and eventually try normal.

Then with rewards, have it to what Vince was saying.

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@Tyson.5160 said:Couldn’t that potentially solve the different scaling of skill? Perhaps one group could finish the the boss with 2 stacks of a buff, while another might use 10. Then you could have people learning the boss better and better but not needing as many stacks of the buff and eventually try normal.

It could work on Gorseval for sure, as the team wipes because they don't have enough dps to do no-updraft, they will get the stacks and eventually manage to pull it off. Not sure how it would help with Sabetha's Flamewall or the gliding part at Xera though. A buff that offers more damage / defense wouldn't help very much on lots of our current Raid bosses.

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Brilliant idea. Raids just like a fractals with Tiers, but only playing high-tier raids would grant you achievements and good rewards.People are learning fractals by doing lower (and easier) tiers. Raids could use the same thing. I really want to raid, but everyone expecting me to have KPs, 250 LI+ and (of course) experience. Training groups are myth, zero progress. You need an experience player who will tell you everything about the boss. We could just learn the raid step-by-step from easy mode to hard.

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@Antycypator.9874 said:Brilliant idea. Raids just like a fractals with Tiers, but only playing high-tier raids would grant you achievements and good rewards.People are learning fractals by doing lower (and easier) tiers. Raids could use the same thing. I really want to raid, but everyone expecting me to have KPs, 250 LI+ and (of course) experience. Training groups are myth, zero progress. You need an experience player who will tell you everything about the boss. We could just learn the raid step-by-step from easy mode to hard.

Join a guild, really that's not some repeated dogma, it actually works and the added benefit is you usually get to meet a lot of nice people (if you join the correct guild for you).

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@Vinceman.4572 said:Can partially agree but in my opinion easy mode raids are the same wasted resources like a living world episode. We get some parts of story instances and most of the people play it once only to experience the lore.And THAT is why raids need to be a lot more accessible to non-raiders in this game .. ANet lock lots of lore and story inside raids, lore and story I and many others never get to see, whereas in WOW we can, without having to endure the rigors of raid guilds and the like.

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@Kraggy.4169 said:

@Vinceman.4572 said:Can partially agree but in my opinion easy mode raids are the same wasted resources like a living world episode. We get some parts of story instances and most of the people play it once only to experience the lore.And THAT is why raids need to be a lot more accessible to non-raiders in this game .. ANet lock lots of lore and story inside raids, lore and story I and many others never get to see, whereas in WOW we can, without having to endure the rigors of raid guilds and the like.

The amount of lore locked behind raids is minimal (debatable since W6 and the mystic forge while not integral to the main story are dealing with something core to GW2). If you are interested in the lore, watch a Woodenpotatoes video where he goes explaining it all. I've watched his videos even though I've completed all the raids (up to W5 since I can't game atm but will clear W6 once I'm back home).

Lore is not an argument to spend resources on an easy mode. Trust me when I'm telling you you would be disappointed.

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@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Vinceman.4572 said:Can partially agree but in my opinion easy mode raids are the same wasted resources like a living world episode. We get some parts of story instances and most of the people play it once only to experience the lore.And THAT is why raids need to be a lot more accessible to non-raiders in this game .. ANet lock lots of lore and story inside raids, lore and story I and many others never get to see, whereas in WOW we can, without having to endure the rigors of raid guilds and the like.

The amount of lore locked behind raids is minimal (debatable since W6 and the mystic forge while not integral to the main story are dealing with something core to GW2). If you are interested in the lore, watch a Woodenpotatoes video where he goes explaining it all. I've watched his videos even though I've completed all the raids (up to W5 since I can't game atm but will clear W6 once I'm back home).

Lore is not an argument to spend resources on an easy mode. Trust me when I'm telling you you would be disappointed.

On the contrary, it is for many people. They want to experience the same content + lore raiders are able at the moment without putting hours of effort and being forced to set up fixed schedules to come together as 10 people. Leave the rewards out, let one LS team develop the easy mode + some (minor) achievements for this mode and we're better off than now.

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@Vinceman.4572 said:

@Vinceman.4572 said:Can partially agree but in my opinion easy mode raids are the same wasted resources like a living world episode. We get some parts of story instances and most of the people play it once only to experience the lore.And THAT is why raids need to be a lot more accessible to non-raiders in this game .. ANet lock lots of lore and story inside raids, lore and story I and many others never get to see, whereas in WOW we can, without having to endure the rigors of raid guilds and the like.

The amount of lore locked behind raids is minimal (debatable since W6 and the mystic forge while not integral to the main story are dealing with something core to GW2). If you are interested in the lore, watch a Woodenpotatoes video where he goes explaining it all. I've watched his videos even though I've completed all the raids (up to W5 since I can't game atm but will clear W6 once I'm back home).

Lore is not an argument to spend resources on an easy mode. Trust me when I'm telling you you would be disappointed.

On the contrary, it is for many people. They want to experience the same content + lore raiders are able at the moment without putting hours of effort and being forced to set up fixed schedules to come together as 10 people. Leave the rewards out, let one LS team develop the easy mode + some (minor) achievements for this mode and we're better off than now.

So people would sacrifice lw episodes for it?

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@yann.1946 said:So people would sacrifice lw episodes for it?

Dunno, I would but I was and still am more addicted to instanced content (in the past). I'd rather have easy mode raids than another map like Domain of Kourna which was a terrible map + achievements. The story was fine but I could easily live without it for another 3 months. ;)

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@Vinceman.4572 said:

@yann.1946 said:So people would sacrifice lw episodes for it?

Dunno, I would but I was and still am more addicted to instanced content (in the past). I'd rather have easy mode raids than another map like Domain of Kourna which was a terrible map + achievements. The story was fine but I could easily live without it for another 3 months. ;)

We'll you'll have to choose an average map not the worst :)Personally I don't feel like their would be enough people willing to make that sacrifice

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@yann.1946 said:

@yann.1946 said:So people would sacrifice lw episodes for it?

Dunno, I would but I was and still am more addicted to instanced content (in the past). I'd rather have easy mode raids than another map like Domain of Kourna which was a terrible map + achievements. The story was fine but I could easily live without it for another 3 months. ;)

We'll you'll have to choose an average map not the worst :)Personally I don't feel like their would be enough people willing to make that sacrifice

Nah, why choosing an average map. The team that made Kourna isn't the best one so from a business perspective - if an easy mode raid is that much wanted - it would be reasonable to give that team a different task.

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@yann.1946 said:

@yann.1946 said:So people would sacrifice lw episodes for it?

Dunno, I would but I was and still am more addicted to instanced content (in the past). I'd rather have easy mode raids than another map like Domain of Kourna which was a terrible map + achievements. The story was fine but I could easily live without it for another 3 months. ;)

We'll you'll have to choose an average map not the worst :)Personally I don't feel like their would be enough people willing to make that sacrifice

And thats the point we argue here, people want lore/easy mode raids but want the raider team resources to pay for it not the lore/easy mode content creators aka living world teams.

If you want one thing thats the same difficulty as something else then you take people from the team that develop that same level of content right?

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@RaidsAreEasyAF.8652 said:

@Lonami.2987 said:Well, WildStar is officially closing down. Hardcore-only raids being one of the main reasons it flopped spectacularly.

Wildstar had a lot of serious problems.The problem with Hardcore only Content is, that you can only play it with your group.Wildstar didnt have a lot of content you could do with pugs. Or a lot of content you wanted to do AT ALL. The loot in this game sucked. Dailys were worthless, crafted gear was better than dungeon and raid gear, meaning that purely ran dungeons to be allowed to raid.

GW2 doesnt have this problem. You got a lot of other stuff to do + you can pug current raids. You arent forced to wait for you group to actually progress.

Sci fi with a Borderland spice wasn't going to be a huge success. Add the problems they had at the start and well is goodbye.

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I noticed that some people have come around to the idea of an easy mode, in order to have people experience some of the raid settings. I noticed this discussion comes up a lot on Tea time too, who isn’t against an easy mode either. I think should an easy or story mode raid be introduced, people would try it. Especially if you keep the collection achievements that are in the raid wings in easy mode as well. Collecting Zommoros books for example. Hell, add an achievement for beating the boss on easy mode as well. As for the loot, make it drop a couple rares, with the chance at an exotic much like a world boss event. Legendary Armor/ trinkets would have to be restricted to the normal mode though.

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@Tyson.5160 said:I noticed that some people have come around to the idea of an easy mode, in order to have people experience some of the raid settings. I noticed this discussion comes up a lot on Tea time too, who isn’t against an easy mode either. I think should an easy or story mode raid be introduced, people would try it. Especially if you keep the collection achievements that are in the raid wings in easy mode as well. Collecting Zommoros books for example. Hell, add an achievement for beating the boss on easy mode as well. As for the loot, make it drop a couple rares, with the chance at an exotic much like a world boss event. Legendary Armor/ trinkets would have to be restricted to the normal mode though.

Most raiders wouldn't object on this, provided they receive some reassurance it won't slow down future releases. Borrowing resources from other departments for instance, like it was suggested. I dare even say very few would object. But I'm certain there will be those who are unhappy they don't get the raid-exclusive rewards on the easy mode.

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@Feanor.2358 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:I noticed that some people have come around to the idea of an easy mode, in order to have people experience some of the raid settings. I noticed this discussion comes up a lot on Tea time too, who isn’t against an easy mode either. I think should an easy or story mode raid be introduced, people would try it. Especially if you keep the collection achievements that are in the raid wings in easy mode as well. Collecting Zommoros books for example. Hell, add an achievement for beating the boss on easy mode as well. As for the loot, make it drop a couple rares, with the chance at an exotic much like a world boss event. Legendary Armor/ trinkets would have to be restricted to the normal mode though.

Most raiders wouldn't object on this, provided they receive some reassurance it won't slow down future releases. Borrowing resources from other departments for instance, like it was suggested. I dare even say very few would object. But I'm certain there will be those who are unhappy they don't get the raid-exclusive rewards on the easy mode.

I think if they did add a story/easy mode, the amount of complaints about raids would be reduced for sure. It would cut out the people complaining about not seeing the content. You would still have people complaining about Legendary Armor, but there is more then one avenue to achieve this.

In terms of borrowing the resources, I think makes sense. When a raid is released there a certain people that don’t even touch it, they know the difficulty is not for them. If there is an easy mode, that’s additional content for them to play, like a new Fractal.

That being said, I wish they should space the raid content in between living world episodes. I understand that it’s easier to ship everything at one time, but I think it would bring people back to the game more frequently.

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@Tyson.5160 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:I noticed that some people have come around to the idea of an easy mode, in order to have people experience some of the raid settings. I noticed this discussion comes up a lot on Tea time too, who isn’t against an easy mode either. I think should an easy or story mode raid be introduced, people would try it. Especially if you keep the collection achievements that are in the raid wings in easy mode as well. Collecting Zommoros books for example. Hell, add an achievement for beating the boss on easy mode as well. As for the loot, make it drop a couple rares, with the chance at an exotic much like a world boss event. Legendary Armor/ trinkets would have to be restricted to the normal mode though.

Most raiders wouldn't object on this, provided they receive some reassurance it won't slow down future releases. Borrowing resources from other departments for instance, like it was suggested. I dare even say very few would object. But I'm certain there will be those who are unhappy they don't get the raid-exclusive rewards on the easy mode.

I think if they did add a story/easy mode, the amount of complaints about raids would be reduced for sure. It would cut out the people complaining about not seeing the content. You would still have people complaining about Legendary Armor, but there is more then one avenue to achieve this.

In terms of borrowing the resources, I think makes sense. When a raid is released there a certain people that don’t even touch it, they know the difficulty is not for them. If there is an easy mode, that’s additional content for them to play, like a new Fractal.

That being said, I wish they should space the raid content in between living world episodes. I understand that it’s easier to ship everything at one time, but I think it would bring people back to the game more frequently.

This whole conversation is a bit moot at this point. Seeing Wing 6 it is pretty obvious that Anet does not want to add more resources to the raids development and their solution for people wanting easier raids is to create a mix of easy and tough bosses. The HoT raids wings were roughly of equal challenge. W4 was an outlier cause of not enough QA (Crystal Reid did mentioned that w4 ended up with mostly easy bosses cause of lack of time for QA). Then in the PoF raids we see W5 that is admittedly the toughest wing and Wing 6 that is pretty much easy mode. Both having a good deal of time to develop.

In the end of the day people that actually want easy modes should at least flock to wing 6 ( which are pretty fun encounters in the own right). If wing 6 has more participation by players that did not raid in the past then that is a good incentive for Anet to continue with adding easier bosses and even make a good case for the easy mode. If people keep this attitude of "the difficulty is not for them" when it is obviously designed to be easier then they only thing they show is that they just want a raids with open world difficulty that will not be a raid encounter any more and not really present any incentive for the devs to accommodate them.

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@Turin.6921 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:I noticed that some people have come around to the idea of an easy mode, in order to have people experience some of the raid settings. I noticed this discussion comes up a lot on Tea time too, who isn’t against an easy mode either. I think should an easy or story mode raid be introduced, people would try it. Especially if you keep the collection achievements that are in the raid wings in easy mode as well. Collecting Zommoros books for example. Hell, add an achievement for beating the boss on easy mode as well. As for the loot, make it drop a couple rares, with the chance at an exotic much like a world boss event. Legendary Armor/ trinkets would have to be restricted to the normal mode though.

Most raiders wouldn't object on this, provided they receive some reassurance it won't slow down future releases. Borrowing resources from other departments for instance, like it was suggested. I dare even say very few would object. But I'm certain there will be those who are unhappy they don't get the raid-exclusive rewards on the easy mode.

I think if they did add a story/easy mode, the amount of complaints about raids would be reduced for sure. It would cut out the people complaining about not seeing the content. You would still have people complaining about Legendary Armor, but there is more then one avenue to achieve this.

In terms of borrowing the resources, I think makes sense. When a raid is released there a certain people that don’t even touch it, they know the difficulty is not for them. If there is an easy mode, that’s additional content for them to play, like a new Fractal.

That being said, I wish they should space the raid content in between living world episodes. I understand that it’s easier to ship everything at one time, but I think it would bring people back to the game more frequently.

This whole conversation is a bit moot at this point. Seeing Wing 6 it is pretty obvious that Anet does not want to add more resources to the raids development and their solution for people wanting easier raids is to create a mix of easy and tough bosses. The HoT raids wings were roughly of equal challenge. W4 was an outlier cause of not enough QA (Crystal Reid did mentioned that w4 ended up with mostly easy bosses cause of lack of time for QA). Then in the PoF raids we see W5 that is admittedly the toughest wing and Wing 6 that is pretty much easy mode. Both having a good deal of time to develop.

In the end of the day people that actually want easy modes should at least flock to wing 6 ( which are pretty fun encounters in the own right). If wing 6 has more participation by players that did not raid in the past then that is a good incentive for Anet to continue with adding easier bosses and even make a good case for the easy mode. If people keep this attitude of "the difficulty is not for them" when it is obviously designed to be easier then they only thing they show is that they just want a raids with open world difficulty that will not be a raid encounter any more and not really present any incentive for the devs to accommodate them.

I agree with a lot of your points, however if the thinking changed from new raid release, content that’s not for me, to content that people of different skills levels can enjoy, you’ll see people happy to have new content period. It would be similar to droves of people doing new living world season maps and storylines, however this time it’s in the raid lobby. Will some people jump to the normal difficulty, maybe, but I’m sure people would stick with easy mode too, since it’s kinda piggybacking off the normal mode development and would be more bang for Anets buck.

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@Tyson.5160 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:I noticed that some people have come around to the idea of an easy mode, in order to have people experience some of the raid settings. I noticed this discussion comes up a lot on Tea time too, who isn’t against an easy mode either. I think should an easy or story mode raid be introduced, people would try it. Especially if you keep the collection achievements that are in the raid wings in easy mode as well. Collecting Zommoros books for example. Hell, add an achievement for beating the boss on easy mode as well. As for the loot, make it drop a couple rares, with the chance at an exotic much like a world boss event. Legendary Armor/ trinkets would have to be restricted to the normal mode though.

Most raiders wouldn't object on this, provided they receive some reassurance it won't slow down future releases. Borrowing resources from other departments for instance, like it was suggested. I dare even say very few would object. But I'm certain there will be those who are unhappy they don't get the raid-exclusive rewards on the easy mode.

I think if they did add a story/easy mode, the amount of complaints about raids would be reduced for sure. It would cut out the people complaining about not seeing the content. You would still have people complaining about Legendary Armor, but there is more then one avenue to achieve this.

In terms of borrowing the resources, I think makes sense. When a raid is released there a certain people that don’t even touch it, they know the difficulty is not for them. If there is an easy mode, that’s additional content for them to play, like a new Fractal.

That being said, I wish they should space the raid content in between living world episodes. I understand that it’s easier to ship everything at one time, but I think it would bring people back to the game more frequently.

This whole conversation is a bit moot at this point. Seeing Wing 6 it is pretty obvious that Anet does not want to add more resources to the raids development and their solution for people wanting easier raids is to create a mix of easy and tough bosses. The HoT raids wings were roughly of equal challenge. W4 was an outlier cause of not enough QA (Crystal Reid did mentioned that w4 ended up with mostly easy bosses cause of lack of time for QA). Then in the PoF raids we see W5 that is admittedly the toughest wing and Wing 6 that is pretty much easy mode. Both having a good deal of time to develop.

In the end of the day people that actually want easy modes should at least flock to wing 6 ( which are pretty fun encounters in the own right). If wing 6 has more participation by players that did not raid in the past then that is a good incentive for Anet to continue with adding easier bosses and even make a good case for the easy mode. If people keep this attitude of "the difficulty is not for them" when it is obviously designed to be easier then they only thing they show is that they just want a raids with open world difficulty that will not be a raid encounter any more and not really present any incentive for the devs to accommodate them.

I agree with a lot of your points, however if the thinking changed from new raid release, content that’s not for me, to content that people of different skills levels can enjoy, you’ll see people happy to have new content period. It would be similar to droves of people doing new living world season maps and storylines, however this time it’s in the raid lobby. Will some people jump to the normal difficulty, maybe, but I’m sure people would stick with easy mode too, since it’s kinda piggybacking off the normal mode development and would be more bang for Anets buck.

Either way it should work (assuming that this is actually what they are doing). No splinting resources, people that actually are serious about trying raiding will get a good way to start raiding smoothly and if they want to go to tougher bosses they can if not they get some content at least. And depending on the audience reaction Anet can either keep the mix of tough and easy or if no new raiders start participating they can adjust accordingly. The success of W6 is basically that even though its pretty easy on normal fights its really fun for everyone. I have seen very few veteran raiders not having fun with it. So a mix can work for everyone as long as they keep the same quality.

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@Turin.6921 said:The success of W6 is basically that even though its pretty easy on normal fights its really fun for everyone. I have seen very few veteran raiders not having fun with it.

Even casuals like me are having a fun with it.Well, except for boss 2. My slow reaction times makes this one a real pain. I really prefer mechanic-heavy fights to ones that are basically a dodge-fiesta.

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@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Turin.6921 said:The success of W6 is basically that even though its pretty easy on normal fights its really fun for everyone. I have seen very few veteran raiders not having fun with it.

Even casuals like me are having a fun with it.Well, except for boss 2. My slow reaction times makes this one a real pain. I really prefer mechanic-heavy fights to ones that are basically a dodge-fiesta.

Learn to play mirage. It is definitely the more favorable DPS class for that fight (with the dodges, jaunt and the stunbreak) and really really fun to play it on that boss. Also until you get use to it endurance food can help.

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@Turin.6921 said:

@Turin.6921 said:The success of W6 is basically that even though its pretty easy on normal fights its really fun for everyone. I have seen very few veteran raiders not having fun with it.

Even casuals like me are having a fun with it.Well, except for boss 2. My slow reaction times makes this one a real pain. I really prefer mechanic-heavy fights to ones that are basically a dodge-fiesta.

Learn to play mirage. It is definitely the more favorable DPS class for that fight (with the dodges, jaunt and the stunbreak) and really really fun to play it on that boss. Also until you get use to it endurance food can help.

Mirage is outright broken on this boss honestly. Not only dodging doesn't kill your dps, it's part of your rotation. And not only that, you get a shit ton of it. Oh, and the highest attack rate of the bosses really favors confusion damage. The fight would be considerably harder if we didn't have mirages to abuse on it.

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It seems like an "easier mode" (with adjusted rewards) would serve as a more appropriate training ground for raids. It seems more intuitive to have people "train" for raids in raid content they can experience. It would reduce the sheer number of threads here and on reddit trying to convince casuals to support this game mode. Fractals have scaling difficulty with scaling rewards. I can jump into a low-level fractal to learn the ropes of the map and then actually work on improving.

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@"Genesis.8572" said:It seems like an "easier mode" (with adjusted rewards) would serve as a more appropriate training ground for raids. It seems more intuitive to have people "train" for raids in raid content they can experience. It would reduce the sheer number of threads here and on reddit trying to convince casuals to support this game mode. Fractals have scaling difficulty with scaling rewards. I can jump into a low-level fractal to learn the ropes of the map and then actually work on improving.

You would also have others that would never move to the normal mode either, which is fine, because it’s still traffic into the raids.

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