From the Ashes instance is unfair to some classes — Guild Wars 2 Forums

From the Ashes instance is unfair to some classes

Specifically, trying to move from cover-to-cover heavily favors classes with high mobility. I played through the story on my Reaper, and it felt incredibly unfun, because I had to make do with Summon Flesh Wurm/Necrotic Transversal, and Death's Charge (which costs precious life force that I need for the fights themselves, made worse by the poison gas). Meanwhile, a Thief could just spam Infiltrator's Arrow, and Mirages have Blink, Mimic, and Jaunt.

I understand that not much can be done to change it at this point, but please take things like this into account in designing future encounters.

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  • notebene.3190notebene.3190 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I sadly didn't get the timed achievement, or not getting hit, but after awhile, the instance got 'frustrated' with me, and reminded me that my Elementalist has other skills, so I thew on my teleport and my Lightning Flash and Mist Form and was able to scoot around better with that. I might try it again with her to at least get the timed achievement. Fun instance though.

    In the event I don't get a chance, thank you all for the company and help when I needed it from time to time.

  • Tails.9372Tails.9372 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Fun instance, this is how they should have done deadeye gameplay instead of this "hide and seek" gameplay we have right now.

  • My first run through it was on my Ranger. What I found worked was to locate what pillar or junk pile I was going to move to next, and then count the pulses of her target/malice on me. When it reached the 3rd or 4th pulse and I knew she was going to fire, I'd dodge then, evade the shot, and I'd make it behind the pillar. It was a rather fun and challenging encounter. (Teleports not required, although I can see where those would make it simpler.)

  • @Kal Spiro.9745 said:

    @Thiazi.1250 said:
    Specifically, trying to move from cover-to-cover heavily favors classes with high mobility. I played through the story on my Reaper, and it felt incredibly unfun, because I had to make do with Summon Flesh Wurm/Necrotic Transversal, and Death's Charge (which costs precious life force that I need for the fights themselves, made worse by the poison gas). Meanwhile, a Thief could just spam Infiltrator's Arrow, and Mirages have Blink, Mimic, and Jaunt.

    I understand that not much can be done to change it at this point, but please take things like this into account in designing future encounters.

    This is incorrect. I did this on my Ranger, but I didn't use speed boost, swiftness, or anything else that might help. I did this exclusively by running at normal run speed and dodging appropriately and I got the achievement for not being shot on my first try. I then crashed right at the end and had to do it a second time. This time I was more careless, attempting to do it faster and I still only got shot twice. No big deal.

    It's not incorrect though. My point isn't that it's impossible to do as a Reaper (I completed it), or even just running and dodging. My point is that some classes have tools that can make this instance much easier, while others don't.

    This isn't me whining that it's too hard. I'm trying to point out that some classes are much better equipped to do this in others, which I believe should not be the case in story content. If it was a raid, fractal, a dungeon, or even just achievements, I wouldn't care. Those are good places to let classes play to their individual strengths. This, however, is the story, which is intended for pretty much everyone to play; having some classes with a huge advantage or disadvantage is bad design, in my opinion.

  • Ashantara.8731Ashantara.8731 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 21, 2018

    @Thiazi.1250 said:
    Specifically, trying to move from cover-to-cover heavily favors classes with high mobility. I played through the story on my Reaper, and it felt incredibly unfun, because I had to make do with Summon Flesh Wurm/Necrotic Transversal, and Death's Charge (which costs precious life force that I need for the fights themselves, made worse by the poison gas). Meanwhile, a Thief could just spam Infiltrator's Arrow, and Mirages have Blink, Mimic, and Jaunt.

    These means are only required if you are going for the Sniper achievement. Otherwise, using a mount, speed-up skills and dodge is enough to get through the mission just fine.

  • While I sympathize with those who have difficulty with the content, I must admit I find this instance laughably easy.

    Condi Soulbeast with no movement abilities, and I got the timed achievement first try.

    I'm unsure how ANet can make something like this easier without trivializing it for a majority of players.

  • Gehenna.3625Gehenna.3625 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Well I had no issue really on my guardian without the use of any speed boosts. What you need to be able to do is time your moves right between shots, go for cover to block the assassination shots and use your dodge roll as a gap closer and it worked for me.

    Sure the first time around I died quite quickly cause I wasn't expecting it, so I went out the instance and tried again and I did it. That some classes can move through that quickly is probably true but then there's fights where I'd much rather have my guardian anyway so I don't really see the problem here.

    "In my experience, if you can't say what you mean, you can never mean what you say. The details are everything." ~ Minister Durano

  • Klipso.8653Klipso.8653 Member ✭✭✭✭

    The real problem is that stealthing with glides and shields/bubbles/reflects don't do anything.

    -Balwarc [ICoa]

  • Ashantara.8731Ashantara.8731 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Klipso.8653 said:
    The real problem is that stealthing with glides and shields/bubbles/reflects don't do anything.

    Stealthing doesn't work?? :o Aww. I was looking forward to getting the Sniper achievement that way. Bummer.

  • @Ashantara.8731 said:

    @Klipso.8653 said:
    The real problem is that stealthing with glides and shields/bubbles/reflects don't do anything.

    Stealthing doesn't work?? :o Aww. I was looking forward to getting the Sniper achievement that way. Bummer.

    If you're planning on using a Thief, Shortbow #5 would be very effective. I think.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    If all else fail, players can group up and pre-emptively station themselves are the three locations that she goes two. She doesn’t do all that much damage in melee so most players should be fine solo.

  • @Thiazi.1250 said:
    Specifically, trying to move from cover-to-cover heavily favors classes with high mobility. I played through the story on my Reaper, and it felt incredibly unfun, because I had to make do with Summon Flesh Wurm/Necrotic Transversal, and Death's Charge (which costs precious life force that I need for the fights themselves, made worse by the poison gas). Meanwhile, a Thief could just spam Infiltrator's Arrow, and Mirages have Blink, Mimic, and Jaunt.

    I understand that not much can be done to change it at this point, but please take things like this into account in designing future encounters.

    You also have dodges. I feel like they would have already had to taken into account the mobility of each class while making that instance lol

  • Kal Spiro.9745Kal Spiro.9745 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 21, 2018

    @Thiazi.1250 said:

    @Kal Spiro.9745 said:

    @Thiazi.1250 said:
    Specifically, trying to move from cover-to-cover heavily favors classes with high mobility. I played through the story on my Reaper, and it felt incredibly unfun, because I had to make do with Summon Flesh Wurm/Necrotic Transversal, and Death's Charge (which costs precious life force that I need for the fights themselves, made worse by the poison gas). Meanwhile, a Thief could just spam Infiltrator's Arrow, and Mirages have Blink, Mimic, and Jaunt.

    I understand that not much can be done to change it at this point, but please take things like this into account in designing future encounters.

    This is incorrect. I did this on my Ranger, but I didn't use speed boost, swiftness, or anything else that might help. I did this exclusively by running at normal run speed and dodging appropriately and I got the achievement for not being shot on my first try. I then crashed right at the end and had to do it a second time. This time I was more careless, attempting to do it faster and I still only got shot twice. No big deal.

    It's not incorrect though. My point isn't that it's impossible to do as a Reaper (I completed it), or even just running and dodging. My point is that some classes have tools that can make this instance much easier, while others don't.

    This isn't me whining that it's too hard. I'm trying to point out that some classes are much better equipped to do this in others, which I believe should not be the case in story content. If it was a raid, fractal, a dungeon, or even just achievements, I wouldn't care. Those are good places to let classes play to their individual strengths. This, however, is the story, which is intended for pretty much everyone to play; having some classes with a huge advantage or disadvantage is bad design, in my opinion.

    This is meaningless. The classes work differently. That's to be expected. The scenario wasn't and shouldn't have been designed around the fact that some of the classes can do it easier. It should be designed around not having any ability to skip, which is succeeded at. It means that even a build that has no ability to improve its movement is able to complete the mission without issue.

    It was designed correctly.

    Tarnished Coast Kal Spiro - Ranger (80), LB/S-D, Eagle/Wolf, Signet, M/S/NM |Daredevil|Ranger
    |Guardian|Scrapper|Necromancer|Berserker|Dragonhunter|Mesmer|Elementalist|Deadeye|Warrior
    |Herald|Daredevil|Reaper|Spellbreaker|Weaver|Chronomancer|Soulbeast|Holosmith|Revenant

  • Ashantara.8731Ashantara.8731 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 21, 2018

    @Warscythes.9307 said:
    Some instances will always favor some classes. Unless you want everything homogenized then this will always be a thing.

    Exactly. There have been several achievements in the past that favored different professions. It's not a big deal, really, as long as you can get through every story mission normally (i.e., without attempting specific achievements) with any profession.

    .
    I just did "Sniper, No Sniping!" and "I Brought a Friend" in one go (on my second attempt, as I was figuring out the best route across the field):

    • stealth definitely works (its duration is just much shorter, probably due to the poison or Zafirah's sharp eye)
    • as expected, thief was perfect for this, with staff skill 5 and dodging forward getting you across almost half of the field!

  • well, everything in this game favours thieves, mesmers and rangers. So what? Just deal with it. Do your stuff and feel good that you have done it with a class that is not on anets lapdog list.

  • Ashantara.8731Ashantara.8731 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 22, 2018

    @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:
    well, everything in this game favours thieves, mesmers and rangers.

    Errr, not true?

    So what? Just deal with it. Do your stuff and feel good that you have done it with a class that is not on anets lapdog list.

    That is a very weird assumption. I have played through the content with all existing professions and find most of it easily doable on other professions, like Guardian, Warrior or Necromancer, for instance. How on earth does one perceive the three professions you named as "receiving a special treatment" by ANet? Sorry, but that's inexplicable to me.

  • Drecien.4508Drecien.4508 Member ✭✭✭

    Did anyone else feel like you were fighting Quiet on mgs phantom pain?

    New mount skins?! Anet take my money!

  • @Connor Fallon.9408 said:
    I just want to say that I really enjoyed reading about all the different strategies people employed for this instance. And I'm glad my prompt to experiment with skills actually helped someone :)

    To the OP: I can't deny that some classes/builds are better suited for this challenge than others, but I tried to balance it so it wouldn't be too bad for anyone. I actually mostly tested this event just walking, with no swiftness and no abilities. It's... harder, and sadly less fun, but it IS possible. The problem is if I tune it down any more, then it becomes boring with the use of any abilities. If people have more notes on classes that feel particularly difficult, though, it's good to know.

    For people who found it easy - I'm curious if you are able to do it with the nuisance buff that causes her to shoot you more quickly. (You can get it by being the NIO when you enter the instance - just have the IO hang back while you challenge yourself. Full disclosure: that one might not be possible for some classes :P)

    Challenge accepted, sir!

  • I did the story on my reaper as well and big fat ZERO problems.

  • Tsakhi.8124Tsakhi.8124 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 22, 2018

    I did it on my Tempest, didn't get the achievements, but I did clear the mission. Dodge, Lightening Flash , Mist Form and some creative uses of the surroundings.

    "Just call me Daddy Balthazar. "

    I eat your Cheetos Paws and steal your sodas, 'cause that's how I roll. (sorry, i'll buy you more.)

  • From the Ashes instance is unfair to some classes

    I can't agree. It's different for different classes, which is partly what I want from stories. LS2 (among others) has a number of instances where it's "completely fair" according to the OP's standards: everyone has to use identical skills. To me, that's unfair. If I wanted to play like a thief, I'd start a thief.

    "Face the facts. Then act on them. It's ...the only doctrine I have to offer you, & it's harder than you'd think, because I swear humans seem hardwired to do anything but. Face the facts. Don't pray, don't wish, ...FACE THE FACTS. THEN act." — Quellcrist Falconer

  • I went with a friend and found this instance enjoyable, but very challenging. I my character was defeated a number of times, it was almost frustrating, but not quite.

  • Randulf.7614Randulf.7614 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 22, 2018

    @Connor Fallon.9408 said:
    I just want to say that I really enjoyed reading about all the different strategies people employed for this instance. And I'm glad my prompt to experiment with skills actually helped someone :)

    To the OP: I can't deny that some classes/builds are better suited for this challenge than others, but I tried to balance it so it wouldn't be too bad for anyone. I actually mostly tested this event just walking, with no swiftness and no abilities. It's... harder, and sadly less fun, but it IS possible. The problem is if I tune it down any more, then it becomes boring with the use of any abilities. If people have more notes on classes that feel particularly difficult, though, it's good to know.

    For people who found it easy - I'm curious if you are able to do it with the nuisance buff that causes her to shoot you more quickly. (You can get it by being the NIO when you enter the instance - just have the IO hang back while you challenge yourself. Full disclosure: that one might not be possible for some classes :P)

    that nuisance buff addition to multiplayer instances prob should have been a challenge buff mote. When i went in to help someone struggling get through it, all it did was cause more frustration, esp when the poison cloud prevents rezzing. We did it, but it made the experience less enjoyable to duo it.

    By sll means use such mechsnics, but extras like this only have a place in challenge motes which you should use more imo

    What sleep is here? What dreams there are in the unctuous coiling of the snakes mortal shuffling. weapon in my hand. My hand the arcing deathblow at the end of all things. The horror. The horror. I embrace it. . .

  • The idea for achievements is that you really shouldn't be getting them the first time unless you're a try hard. I didn't get the Sniper No Sniping myself because I ran out of dodges when I didn't think I did. The poisonous fog is a nice touch to make sure you hurry it up.

  • phs.6089phs.6089 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 22, 2018

    Done on engie. Rifle, Elixir S, Rocket boots, Elixir U.
    And now that i wrote this, I start to think why wasn't I on Scrapper? Just why? lol

    "There is always a lighthouse, there's always a man, there's always a city."

  • @Connor Fallon.9408 said:
    For people who found it easy - I'm curious if you are able to do it with the nuisance buff that causes her to shoot you more quickly. (You can get it by being the NIO when you enter the instance - just have the IO hang back while you challenge yourself. Full disclosure: that one might not be possible for some classes :P)

    Wait, you get shot faster when your're not the instance opener? I did this together with someone else (he opened) and had no problems getting through. I had done this story step before, so I knew what was coming. As a sword-weaver I used perma-swiftness, dodge-rolls and ride the lightning for longer distances.

    If you want a real challenge, try traversing the field on a mount!

    No skin should be exclusive to gem-store rng boxes.
    What really happened with mount skins

  • At this point I've stopped trying to get through this instance. I can get through the first part every time, the second part about half the time and have yet to get through the third part. I've tried everything I can think of, speed, invis, mimic/blink, varying the route. I get shot, lose half my base health and the poison kills me. Or the random enemies in the instance do. Very frustrating!

  • Taygus.4571Taygus.4571 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 22, 2018

    @Reverielle.3972 said:
    I went with a friend and found this instance enjoyable, but very challenging. I my character was defeated a number of times, it was almost frustrating, but not quite.

    same. Went with a friend. Thankfully they were much better at it than I.

    I will have to practice this instance because I actually found it interesting and fun. I just sucked terribly at it.

    (Reading comments, apparently the instance is harder for people who don't open the instance? Thats an odd choice for Anet to make.)

    @Wolfhound.4381 said:
    At this point I've stopped trying to get through this instance. I can get through the first part every time, the second part about half the time and have yet to get through the third part. I've tried everything I can think of, speed, invis, mimic/blink, varying the route. I get shot, lose half my base health and the poison kills me. Or the random enemies in the instance do. Very frustrating!

    Party up and do it as a group :) More fun that way anyway.

  • Gehenna.3625Gehenna.3625 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Wolfhound.4381 said:
    At this point I've stopped trying to get through this instance. I can get through the first part every time, the second part about half the time and have yet to get through the third part. I've tried everything I can think of, speed, invis, mimic/blink, varying the route. I get shot, lose half my base health and the poison kills me. Or the random enemies in the instance do. Very frustrating!

    Hmmm. Now, one of the things to watch for is this reddish effect like a circle and some things that is on you shortly before she shoots. There is a line that comes too and this line needs to be broken by line of sight before she does fire. I'm not sure what sort of graphics settings you have but I do hope you can see these things. Some of the stuff you can hide behind is wood and she will shoot it and destroy it. So you need to be ready to move right after she destroys it.

    There is a solid stone structure in the middle and I use that as my halfway point. Then when I get to the structure she is on, I use my rabbit mount to get to her quickly as to not lose extra time in the climb. But that's for the timed achievement.

    I stay clear of fighting any adds, so I just keep moving and rolling. Basically I start running from behind cover towards the next cover. As soon as I see the reddish circle aura I do a dodge roll towards the next cover. Two rolls if needed. I do not use any speed boosts but I generally make it.

    Now I will say this. I am a PvE noob in ascended celestial gear and play guardian. What that means is that because of the elite signet that gives health every few seconds as well as some other things that guardians get, I do not have any concerns with the poison. And well because I use celestial gear that might cost me some DPS but I do gain survivability. I basically ignore the adds in that fight. Also using my glider helps. The middle stone structure is a bit higher so I can do a small glide there which gives some speed and also when she switches position I used it once to get closer to the middle. Same rule though. As soon as I see that red aura I drop behind cover instantly. So it's a matter of watching my character more than watching her. Now you know what her positions are you don't need to worry about that cause you know where to go.

    But you do have to keep moving, particularly behind wooden cover but also to keep the adds off you. I'm not saying it's all dead easy, but for me that worked. As it stands I went in the first time and got my behind handed to me before I even made it to her first location. So I restarted the instance and did it with the time achievement included.

    No speed boosts, no stealth. I did get hit twice I think but those were avoidable mistakes.

    That's all I can tell you from my experience. Perhaps something in there can help you.

    "In my experience, if you can't say what you mean, you can never mean what you say. The details are everything." ~ Minister Durano

  • Ashabhi.1365Ashabhi.1365 Member ✭✭✭

    I did it on my Mirage, but I didn't use the blinks/teleports and didn't have any swiftness. I was using different build when I started the instance. I had heard about it, but didn't think that I was at that point in the story when I did it, so yeah, I wasn't set up. It is doable, as long as you keep an eye on that laser sight. I ignored the adds, and ran like hell between obstacles. I did die once in the hand-to-hand fighting, but it was easy to get back to her once you learn her mechanics. TBH, the poison cloud was negligible for me, so I ignored it and focused on getting from obstacle to obstacle. Once I got to the structure, the Springer mount got me to the top.

    I thought it was challenging, but not overly so. It was an interesting fight. When so many of the other fights are basic mob blobs with a "boss" type vet or elite, it was nice to try to outwit a single adversary. It was also nice that the adds weren't the type to follow you forever or stack up. You could concentrate on what you were doing while avoiding death without worrying about how many adds were going to stack up on you by the time you got to the stairs. SOmething else I noticed is that the poison cloud breaks up here and there, usually around the obstacles. There were a few times that I actually regained health instead of watching it tick off.

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 22, 2018

    @Connor Fallon.9408 said:
    I just want to say that I really enjoyed reading about all the different strategies people employed for this instance. And I'm glad my prompt to experiment with skills actually helped someone :)

    To the OP: I can't deny that some classes/builds are better suited for this challenge than others, but I tried to balance it so it wouldn't be too bad for anyone. I actually mostly tested this event just walking, with no swiftness and no abilities. It's... harder, and sadly less fun, but it IS possible. The problem is if I tune it down any more, then it becomes boring with the use of any abilities. If people have more notes on classes that feel particularly difficult, though, it's good to know.

    For people who found it easy - I'm curious if you are able to do it with the nuisance buff that causes her to shoot you more quickly. (You can get it by being the NIO when you enter the instance - just have the IO hang back while you challenge yourself. Full disclosure: that one might not be possible for some classes :P)

    It was not difficult. It was extremely boring. Getting to the dead eye once was okay, when I realized I had to do again I was like YOU HAVE TO BE KITTEN KIDDING ME.

    I am not against encounters having mechanics. Just do not make them tedious and long.

  • Gehenna.3625Gehenna.3625 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @otto.5684 said:

    @Connor Fallon.9408 said:
    I just want to say that I really enjoyed reading about all the different strategies people employed for this instance. And I'm glad my prompt to experiment with skills actually helped someone :)

    To the OP: I can't deny that some classes/builds are better suited for this challenge than others, but I tried to balance it so it wouldn't be too bad for anyone. I actually mostly tested this event just walking, with no swiftness and no abilities. It's... harder, and sadly less fun, but it IS possible. The problem is if I tune it down any more, then it becomes boring with the use of any abilities. If people have more notes on classes that feel particularly difficult, though, it's good to know.

    For people who found it easy - I'm curious if you are able to do it with the nuisance buff that causes her to shoot you more quickly. (You can get it by being the NIO when you enter the instance - just have the IO hang back while you challenge yourself. Full disclosure: that one might not be possible for some classes :P)

    It was not difficult. It was extremely boring. Getting to the dead eye once was okay, when I realized I had to do again I was like YOU HAVE TO BE KITTEN KIDDING ME.

    I am not against encounters having mechanics. Just do not make them tedious and long.

    Well, I think that her jumping twice is not excessive. Also she didn't have crazy hp, so I thought it was a pretty good balance overall. As it stands this was one of the better boss fights in GW2 from my point of view.

    You clearly have a different view but I think that there are lot of boss fights in this game that are certainly more boring and tedious than this one. Oh well, opinions will vary :)

    "In my experience, if you can't say what you mean, you can never mean what you say. The details are everything." ~ Minister Durano

  • Zushada.6108Zushada.6108 Member ✭✭✭

    @notebene.3190 said:
    I sadly didn't get the timed achievement, or not getting hit, but after awhile, the instance got 'frustrated' with me, and reminded me that my Elementalist has other skills, so I thew on my teleport and my Lightning Flash and Mist Form and was able to scoot around better with that. I might try it again with her to at least get the timed achievement. Fun instance though.

    This was exactly what I was going to say. A few of my friends run about in glass cannon raid builds and were complaining rather loudly about this instance. When I asked if they were full glass cannon raid builds they replied "well of course." My reply whenever a player is frustrated with story instances and not downing a boss or dying a lot is always the same ... Story instances are not meant necessarily for the glass cannon raid build. Stories are meant to get you thinking beyond a static build and to use (and learn) the other specializations, utilities and sometimes even weapons. They are meant to challenge the player to fully understand the profession they are playing. Finally, I never run full glass cannon in stories because it is not a sprint, it is a marathon mostly of survival. I frequently tell my glass cannon friends to go with gear (or stats in the case of legendary gear) that is tankier rather than glassy just so you have some mitigation/survival. In that fight, for example the Engineer's rifle #5 jump shot can be used as a teleport to get out of trouble and LOS the sniper. There are loads of abilities and weapon skills for each profession. The fun part is being creative about your build.

  • edited September 22, 2018

    @Taygus.4571 said:
    (Reading comments, apparently the instance is harder for people who don't open the instance? Thats an odd choice for Anet to make.)

    Just following up as I figure the design logic behind this might be interesting to people - it wasn't so much a decision to make it harder as to make it, uh, less easier. (bare with me here :P)

    It's true she shoots NIOs more quickly when targeting them than IOs, which would be harder if you were traveling by yourself - but she can only target one person at a time. So every NIO actually gives the whole group more traversal time as a whole, as they can serve as cover for one another if they are clever about it.

    Doing it by yourself with the NIO limitation is an interesting challenge, though... for those who wish to prove they can. Those types do exist =)

    Connor Fallon
    Game Designer

  • Gehenna.3625Gehenna.3625 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Connor Fallon.9408 said:

    @Taygus.4571 said:
    (Reading comments, apparently the instance is harder for people who don't open the instance? Thats an odd choice for Anet to make.)

    Just following up as I figure the design logic behind this might be interesting to people - it wasn't so much a decision to make it harder as to make it, uh, less easier.

    It's true she shoots NIOs more quickly when targeting them than IOs, which would be harder if you were traveling by yourself - but she can only target one person at a time. So every NIO actually gives the whole group more traversal time as a whole, as they can serve as cover for one another if they are clever about it.

    Doing it by yourself with the NIO limitation is an interesting challenge, though... for those who wish to prove they can. Those types do exist =)

    I like how you designed this. From what I can tell this means that the instance opener, who is the one needing the mission done, is the person who gets a bit of slack. Presumably the main point of bringing people along is because you're struggling. The non-instance-openers are then effectively decoys. So you can play decoy while the person having more difficulty gets an easier time just because they get shot at a lot less then.

    I think that's a great way to support people who have a harder time with some of these challenges for a variety of reasons. Personally, I think it's one of the best story boss fights in the game, so all in all I can only say well done!

    "In my experience, if you can't say what you mean, you can never mean what you say. The details are everything." ~ Minister Durano

  • I've gone through twice now as backup for friends who, let's say, don't always have the same confidence as I going into brand new story instances. I deliberately shared nothing about the mechanics (or story), just letting them know I was available to assist.

    The first one figured out the idea right away, making it through without getting hit until midway (surprised by the 'adds' and ran out of dodges). They were not on a high mobility toon (and hadn't equipped anything special). They have some experience in games outside of GW2. Verdict: "that was fun" and is trying for the no-hit achievement without cheez.

    The second one did not figure out the idea right away & struggled with it. They had a potentially high mobility class, but, again, without hints, didn't know to swap weapons or skills to something fitting. They do not have much experience with games outside of GW2. Still, after a few false starts (with backup using fake /gg to give her the restart prompt), they managed to get to the DE without direct assistance. Verdict: "tough, but fun; glad I had backup." Probably won't try for no-hit.

    "Face the facts. Then act on them. It's ...the only doctrine I have to offer you, & it's harder than you'd think, because I swear humans seem hardwired to do anything but. Face the facts. Don't pray, don't wish, ...FACE THE FACTS. THEN act." — Quellcrist Falconer

  • Randulf.7614Randulf.7614 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Connor Fallon.9408 said:

    @Taygus.4571 said:
    (Reading comments, apparently the instance is harder for people who don't open the instance? Thats an odd choice for Anet to make.)

    Just following up as I figure the design logic behind this might be interesting to people - it wasn't so much a decision to make it harder as to make it, uh, less easier. (bare with me here :P)

    It's true she shoots NIOs more quickly when targeting them than IOs, which would be harder if you were traveling by yourself - but she can only target one person at a time. So every NIO actually gives the whole group more traversal time as a whole, as they can serve as cover for one another if they are clever about it.

    Doing it by yourself with the NIO limitation is an interesting challenge, though... for those who wish to prove they can. Those types do exist =)

    That is fine...however the point of why many people team up is to get around the mechanics more easily rather than be cleverer with things like cover for each other. If those who struggle could do things like that, they wouldnt need help in teaming up.
    When i helped a friend out, it turned out to be a more frustrating experience than soloing it, which seemed to counter the entire point of teaming up.in fact it all felt like it was discouraging team play fir those who struggle solo.

    Like i said, great idea, but poss better served in a challenge mote somehow esp for those who want the challenge and plenty do as you say

    It is a minor thing since we got through, it just felt more cumbersome than it needed to be, esp as the fight felt somewhat random to the narrative as it was.

    What sleep is here? What dreams there are in the unctuous coiling of the snakes mortal shuffling. weapon in my hand. My hand the arcing deathblow at the end of all things. The horror. The horror. I embrace it. . .

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Just wanted to say that all classes have access to teleport now with the Jackel mount..

    You can easily use it's teleports to blink from cover to cover as well as the new mastry to boost endurance regen to spam it.

  • Lahmia.2193Lahmia.2193 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I managed it on my reaper, but it did make me think "I should have used my thief" afterwards.

    "Surrender and serve me in life, or die and slave for me in death."

  • Tails.9372Tails.9372 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 22, 2018

    @Connor Fallon.9408 said:
    Just following up as I figure the design logic behind this might be interesting to people - it wasn't so much a decision to make it harder as to make it, uh, less easier. (bare with me here :P)

    It's true she shoots NIOs more quickly when targeting them than IOs, which would be harder if you were traveling by yourself - but she can only target one person at a time. So every NIO actually gives the whole group more traversal time as a whole, as they can serve as cover for one another if they are clever about it.

    Doing it by yourself with the NIO limitation is an interesting challenge, though... for those who wish to prove they can. Those types do exist =)

    But then just add a hard mode setting for those who seek a challenge. The story is something for casuals to enjoy and many like to play co-op with their friends. If two friends play this instance then one will feel disadvantaged for no reason and if people feel like the content becomes more difficult as a resault of it then they avoid playing with their frends altogether (I know because I have some frends who are like that).

    all classes have access to teleport now with the Jackel mount

    She can still hit you in mid teleport if you use the jackal.

  • Tanith.5264Tanith.5264 Member ✭✭✭

    I don't think mounts are much help in this instance. You can equip them outside the door, but once you're inside you're "in combat" until you climb to one of her perches and can't get back on. And as Tails said, she shoots you right off 'em. I got the bright idea that the raptor's power leap would be a great way to get from cover to cover, but not so. I think the silly banana is especially angry because she doesn't have a mount of her own. ;)

  • ReaverKane.7598ReaverKane.7598 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Connor Fallon.9408 said:
    I just want to say that I really enjoyed reading about all the different strategies people employed for this instance. And I'm glad my prompt to experiment with skills actually helped someone :)

    To the OP: I can't deny that some classes/builds are better suited for this challenge than others, but I tried to balance it so it wouldn't be too bad for anyone. I actually mostly tested this event just walking, with no swiftness and no abilities. It's... harder, and sadly less fun, but it IS possible. The problem is if I tune it down any more, then it becomes boring with the use of any abilities. If people have more notes on classes that feel particularly difficult, though, it's good to know.

    For people who found it easy - I'm curious if you are able to do it with the nuisance buff that causes her to shoot you more quickly. (You can get it by being the NIO when you enter the instance - just have the IO hang back while you challenge yourself. Full disclosure: that one might not be possible for some classes :P)

    Congrats on the encounter, it was pretty fun, and reminded me of a mission in Assassin's Creed Black flag that puts us in pretty much the same situation. Really fun, and a nice callback, intended or no!

  • Taygus.4571Taygus.4571 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Connor Fallon.9408 said:

    @Taygus.4571 said:
    (Reading comments, apparently the instance is harder for people who don't open the instance? Thats an odd choice for Anet to make.)

    Just following up as I figure the design logic behind this might be interesting to people - it wasn't so much a decision to make it harder as to make it, uh, less easier. (bare with me here :P)

    It's true she shoots NIOs more quickly when targeting them than IOs, which would be harder if you were traveling by yourself - but she can only target one person at a time. So every NIO actually gives the whole group more traversal time as a whole, as they can serve as cover for one another if they are clever about it.

    Doing it by yourself with the NIO limitation is an interesting challenge, though... for those who wish to prove they can. Those types do exist =)

    That's interesting.

    I can now tell my friend that it wasn't that I sucked... I was just giving him more time by playing decoy. lol

  • Ashantara.8731Ashantara.8731 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Wolfhound.4381 said:
    At this point I've stopped trying to get through this instance. I can get through the first part every time, the second part about half the time and have yet to get through the third part. I've tried everything I can think of, speed, invis, mimic/blink, varying the route. I get shot, lose half my base health and the poison kills me. Or the random enemies in the instance do. Very frustrating!

    Save up your healing skill? Use the environment for cover? You get healed every impulse that the poison applies damage, so your health doesn't deplete quickly. I really don't see how traversing the field could be such an obstacle. The fight, on the other hand, is much more challenging (if you don't have blocks and aren't quick enough to evade her special attacks).

  • Tails.9372Tails.9372 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I kinda don't like how they nerfed stealth in this area, in regards to PvE stealth as a game mechanic is pretty much useless > 99% of the time so of course the one time this game mechanic would actually be usefull A-Net desdes to s**t on it.

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