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From the Ashes instance is unfair to some classes


Thiazi.1250

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From the Ashes instance is unfair to some classesI can't agree. It's different for different classes, which is partly what I want from stories. LS2 (among others) has a number of instances where it's "completely fair" according to the OP's standards: everyone has to use identical skills. To me, that's unfair. If I wanted to play like a thief, I'd start a thief.

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I'm finding it hard not to laugh. Do you know how much content is easier because you're on a necro? How many hero points I can solo on my necro that I can't solo on my ele, or engineer? How easy the necro is in so many situations?

Complaining one achievement is harder on a necro is ludicrous. Asking for every achievement to be equalized across every class is impossible. I think most professions are disadvantaged at some point or other. You hear a lot of complaining about necros, usually about getting into high end content, but this sort of post is simply misplaced.

The only way to make every single class equal is to give every single class the same exact skills. Every class has benefits and drawbacks. Stuff not being easy on the necro is generally a complaint we don't hear.

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@Connor Fallon.9408 said:I just want to say that I really enjoyed reading about all the different strategies people employed for this instance. And I'm glad my prompt to experiment with skills actually helped someone :)

To the OP: I can't deny that some classes/builds are better suited for this challenge than others, but I tried to balance it so it wouldn't be too bad for anyone. I actually mostly tested this event just walking, with no swiftness and no abilities. It's... harder, and sadly less fun, but it IS possible. The problem is if I tune it down any more, then it becomes boring with the use of any abilities. If people have more notes on classes that feel particularly difficult, though, it's good to know.

For people who found it easy - I'm curious if you are able to do it with the nuisance buff that causes her to shoot you more quickly. (You can get it by being the NIO when you enter the instance - just have the IO hang back while you challenge yourself. Full disclosure: that one might not be possible for some classes :P)

that nuisance buff addition to multiplayer instances prob should have been a challenge buff mote. When i went in to help someone struggling get through it, all it did was cause more frustration, esp when the poison cloud prevents rezzing. We did it, but it made the experience less enjoyable to duo it.

By sll means use such mechsnics, but extras like this only have a place in challenge motes which you should use more imo

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@Connor Fallon.9408 said:For people who found it easy - I'm curious if you are able to do it with the nuisance buff that causes her to shoot you more quickly. (You can get it by being the NIO when you enter the instance - just have the IO hang back while you challenge yourself. Full disclosure: that one might not be possible for some classes :P)

Wait, you get shot faster when your're not the instance opener? I did this together with someone else (he opened) and had no problems getting through. I had done this story step before, so I knew what was coming. As a sword-weaver I used perma-swiftness, dodge-rolls and ride the lightning for longer distances.

If you want a real challenge, try traversing the field on a mount!

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At this point I've stopped trying to get through this instance. I can get through the first part every time, the second part about half the time and have yet to get through the third part. I've tried everything I can think of, speed, invis, mimic/blink, varying the route. I get shot, lose half my base health and the poison kills me. Or the random enemies in the instance do. Very frustrating!

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@Reverielle.3972 said:I went with a friend and found this instance enjoyable, but very challenging. I my character was defeated a number of times, it was almost frustrating, but not quite.

same. Went with a friend. Thankfully they were much better at it than I.

I will have to practice this instance because I actually found it interesting and fun. I just sucked terribly at it.

(Reading comments, apparently the instance is harder for people who don't open the instance? Thats an odd choice for Anet to make.)

@Wolfhound.4381 said:At this point I've stopped trying to get through this instance. I can get through the first part every time, the second part about half the time and have yet to get through the third part. I've tried everything I can think of, speed, invis, mimic/blink, varying the route. I get shot, lose half my base health and the poison kills me. Or the random enemies in the instance do. Very frustrating!

Party up and do it as a group :) More fun that way anyway.

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@Wolfhound.4381 said:At this point I've stopped trying to get through this instance. I can get through the first part every time, the second part about half the time and have yet to get through the third part. I've tried everything I can think of, speed, invis, mimic/blink, varying the route. I get shot, lose half my base health and the poison kills me. Or the random enemies in the instance do. Very frustrating!

Hmmm. Now, one of the things to watch for is this reddish effect like a circle and some things that is on you shortly before she shoots. There is a line that comes too and this line needs to be broken by line of sight before she does fire. I'm not sure what sort of graphics settings you have but I do hope you can see these things. Some of the stuff you can hide behind is wood and she will shoot it and destroy it. So you need to be ready to move right after she destroys it.

There is a solid stone structure in the middle and I use that as my halfway point. Then when I get to the structure she is on, I use my rabbit mount to get to her quickly as to not lose extra time in the climb. But that's for the timed achievement.

I stay clear of fighting any adds, so I just keep moving and rolling. Basically I start running from behind cover towards the next cover. As soon as I see the reddish circle aura I do a dodge roll towards the next cover. Two rolls if needed. I do not use any speed boosts but I generally make it.

Now I will say this. I am a PvE noob in ascended celestial gear and play guardian. What that means is that because of the elite signet that gives health every few seconds as well as some other things that guardians get, I do not have any concerns with the poison. And well because I use celestial gear that might cost me some DPS but I do gain survivability. I basically ignore the adds in that fight. Also using my glider helps. The middle stone structure is a bit higher so I can do a small glide there which gives some speed and also when she switches position I used it once to get closer to the middle. Same rule though. As soon as I see that red aura I drop behind cover instantly. So it's a matter of watching my character more than watching her. Now you know what her positions are you don't need to worry about that cause you know where to go.

But you do have to keep moving, particularly behind wooden cover but also to keep the adds off you. I'm not saying it's all dead easy, but for me that worked. As it stands I went in the first time and got my behind handed to me before I even made it to her first location. So I restarted the instance and did it with the time achievement included.

No speed boosts, no stealth. I did get hit twice I think but those were avoidable mistakes.

That's all I can tell you from my experience. Perhaps something in there can help you.

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I did it on my Mirage, but I didn't use the blinks/teleports and didn't have any swiftness. I was using different build when I started the instance. I had heard about it, but didn't think that I was at that point in the story when I did it, so yeah, I wasn't set up. It is doable, as long as you keep an eye on that laser sight. I ignored the adds, and ran like hell between obstacles. I did die once in the hand-to-hand fighting, but it was easy to get back to her once you learn her mechanics. TBH, the poison cloud was negligible for me, so I ignored it and focused on getting from obstacle to obstacle. Once I got to the structure, the Springer mount got me to the top.

I thought it was challenging, but not overly so. It was an interesting fight. When so many of the other fights are basic mob blobs with a "boss" type vet or elite, it was nice to try to outwit a single adversary. It was also nice that the adds weren't the type to follow you forever or stack up. You could concentrate on what you were doing while avoiding death without worrying about how many adds were going to stack up on you by the time you got to the stairs. SOmething else I noticed is that the poison cloud breaks up here and there, usually around the obstacles. There were a few times that I actually regained health instead of watching it tick off.

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@Connor Fallon.9408 said:I just want to say that I really enjoyed reading about all the different strategies people employed for this instance. And I'm glad my prompt to experiment with skills actually helped someone :)

To the OP: I can't deny that some classes/builds are better suited for this challenge than others, but I tried to balance it so it wouldn't be too bad for anyone. I actually mostly tested this event just walking, with no swiftness and no abilities. It's... harder, and sadly less fun, but it IS possible. The problem is if I tune it down any more, then it becomes boring with the use of any abilities. If people have more notes on classes that feel particularly difficult, though, it's good to know.

For people who found it easy - I'm curious if you are able to do it with the nuisance buff that causes her to shoot you more quickly. (You can get it by being the NIO when you enter the instance - just have the IO hang back while you challenge yourself. Full disclosure: that one might not be possible for some classes :P)

It was not difficult. It was extremely boring. Getting to the dead eye once was okay, when I realized I had to do again I was like YOU HAVE TO BE KITTEN KIDDING ME.

I am not against encounters having mechanics. Just do not make them tedious and long.

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@otto.5684 said:

@Connor Fallon.9408 said:I just want to say that I really enjoyed reading about all the different strategies people employed for this instance. And I'm glad my prompt to experiment with skills actually helped someone :)

To the OP: I can't deny that some classes/builds are better suited for this challenge than others, but I tried to balance it so it wouldn't be too bad for anyone. I actually mostly tested this event just walking, with no swiftness and no abilities. It's... harder, and sadly less fun, but it IS possible. The problem is if I tune it down any more, then it becomes boring with the use of any abilities. If people have more notes on classes that feel particularly difficult, though, it's good to know.

For people who found it easy - I'm curious if you are able to do it with the nuisance buff that causes her to shoot you more quickly. (You can get it by being the NIO when you enter the instance - just have the IO hang back while you challenge yourself. Full disclosure: that one might not be possible for some classes :P)

It was not difficult. It was extremely boring. Getting to the dead eye once was okay, when I realized I had to do again I was like YOU HAVE TO BE KITTEN KIDDING ME.

I am not against encounters having mechanics. Just do not make them tedious and long.

Well, I think that her jumping twice is not excessive. Also she didn't have crazy hp, so I thought it was a pretty good balance overall. As it stands this was one of the better boss fights in GW2 from my point of view.

You clearly have a different view but I think that there are lot of boss fights in this game that are certainly more boring and tedious than this one. Oh well, opinions will vary :)

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@"notebene.3190" said:I sadly didn't get the timed achievement, or not getting hit, but after awhile, the instance got 'frustrated' with me, and reminded me that my Elementalist has other skills, so I thew on my teleport and my Lightning Flash and Mist Form and was able to scoot around better with that. I might try it again with her to at least get the timed achievement. Fun instance though.

This was exactly what I was going to say. A few of my friends run about in glass cannon raid builds and were complaining rather loudly about this instance. When I asked if they were full glass cannon raid builds they replied "well of course." My reply whenever a player is frustrated with story instances and not downing a boss or dying a lot is always the same ... Story instances are not meant necessarily for the glass cannon raid build. Stories are meant to get you thinking beyond a static build and to use (and learn) the other specializations, utilities and sometimes even weapons. They are meant to challenge the player to fully understand the profession they are playing. Finally, I never run full glass cannon in stories because it is not a sprint, it is a marathon mostly of survival. I frequently tell my glass cannon friends to go with gear (or stats in the case of legendary gear) that is tankier rather than glassy just so you have some mitigation/survival. In that fight, for example the Engineer's rifle #5 jump shot can be used as a teleport to get out of trouble and LOS the sniper. There are loads of abilities and weapon skills for each profession. The fun part is being creative about your build.

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@Taygus.4571 said:(Reading comments, apparently the instance is harder for people who don't open the instance? Thats an odd choice for Anet to make.)

Just following up as I figure the design logic behind this might be interesting to people - it wasn't so much a decision to make it harder as to make it, uh, less easier. (bare with me here :P)

It's true she shoots NIOs more quickly when targeting them than IOs, which would be harder if you were traveling by yourself - but she can only target one person at a time. So every NIO actually gives the whole group more traversal time as a whole, as they can serve as cover for one another if they are clever about it.

Doing it by yourself with the NIO limitation is an interesting challenge, though... for those who wish to prove they can. Those types do exist =)

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@Connor Fallon.9408 said:

@Taygus.4571 said:(Reading comments, apparently the instance is harder for people who don't open the instance? Thats an odd choice for Anet to make.)

Just following up as I figure the design logic behind this might be interesting to people - it wasn't so much a decision to make it harder as to make it, uh, less easier.

It's true she shoots NIOs more quickly when targeting them than IOs, which would be harder if you were traveling by yourself - but she can only target one person at a time. So every NIO actually gives the whole group more traversal time as a whole, as they can serve as cover for one another if they are clever about it.

Doing it by yourself with the NIO limitation is an interesting challenge, though... for those who wish to prove they can. Those types do exist =)

I like how you designed this. From what I can tell this means that the instance opener, who is the one needing the mission done, is the person who gets a bit of slack. Presumably the main point of bringing people along is because you're struggling. The non-instance-openers are then effectively decoys. So you can play decoy while the person having more difficulty gets an easier time just because they get shot at a lot less then.

I think that's a great way to support people who have a harder time with some of these challenges for a variety of reasons. Personally, I think it's one of the best story boss fights in the game, so all in all I can only say well done!

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I've gone through twice now as backup for friends who, let's say, don't always have the same confidence as I going into brand new story instances. I deliberately shared nothing about the mechanics (or story), just letting them know I was available to assist.

The first one figured out the idea right away, making it through without getting hit until midway (surprised by the 'adds' and ran out of dodges). They were not on a high mobility toon (and hadn't equipped anything special). They have some experience in games outside of GW2. Verdict: "that was fun" and is trying for the no-hit achievement without cheez.

The second one did not figure out the idea right away & struggled with it. They had a potentially high mobility class, but, again, without hints, didn't know to swap weapons or skills to something fitting. They do not have much experience with games outside of GW2. Still, after a few false starts (with backup using fake /gg to give her the restart prompt), they managed to get to the DE without direct assistance. Verdict: "tough, but fun; glad I had backup." Probably won't try for no-hit.

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@Connor Fallon.9408 said:

@Taygus.4571 said:(Reading comments, apparently the instance is harder for people who don't open the instance? Thats an odd choice for Anet to make.)

Just following up as I figure the design logic behind this might be interesting to people - it wasn't so much a decision to make it harder as to make it, uh, less easier. (bare with me here :P)

It's true she shoots NIOs more quickly when targeting them than IOs, which would be harder if you were traveling by yourself - but she can only target one person at a time. So every NIO actually gives the whole group more traversal time as a whole, as they can serve as cover for one another if they are clever about it.

Doing it by yourself with the NIO limitation is an interesting challenge, though... for those who wish to prove they can. Those types do exist =)

That is fine...however the point of why many people team up is to get around the mechanics more easily rather than be cleverer with things like cover for each other. If those who struggle could do things like that, they wouldnt need help in teaming up.When i helped a friend out, it turned out to be a more frustrating experience than soloing it, which seemed to counter the entire point of teaming up.in fact it all felt like it was discouraging team play fir those who struggle solo.

Like i said, great idea, but poss better served in a challenge mote somehow esp for those who want the challenge and plenty do as you say

It is a minor thing since we got through, it just felt more cumbersome than it needed to be, esp as the fight felt somewhat random to the narrative as it was.

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@Connor Fallon.9408 said:Just following up as I figure the design logic behind this might be interesting to people - it wasn't so much a decision to make it harder as to make it, uh, less easier. (bare with me here :P)

It's true she shoots NIOs more quickly when targeting them than IOs, which would be harder if you were traveling by yourself - but she can only target one person at a time. So every NIO actually gives the whole group more traversal time as a whole, as they can serve as cover for one another if they are clever about it.

Doing it by yourself with the NIO limitation is an interesting challenge, though... for those who wish to prove they can. Those types do exist =)But then just add a hard mode setting for those who seek a challenge. The story is something for casuals to enjoy and many like to play co-op with their friends. If two friends play this instance then one will feel disadvantaged for no reason and if people feel like the content becomes more difficult as a resault of it then they avoid playing with their frends altogether (I know because I have some frends who are like that).

all classes have access to teleport now with the Jackel mountShe can still hit you in mid teleport if you use the jackal.

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I don't think mounts are much help in this instance. You can equip them outside the door, but once you're inside you're "in combat" until you climb to one of her perches and can't get back on. And as Tails said, she shoots you right off 'em. I got the bright idea that the raptor's power leap would be a great way to get from cover to cover, but not so. I think the silly banana is especially angry because she doesn't have a mount of her own. ;)

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@Connor Fallon.9408 said:I just want to say that I really enjoyed reading about all the different strategies people employed for this instance. And I'm glad my prompt to experiment with skills actually helped someone :)

To the OP: I can't deny that some classes/builds are better suited for this challenge than others, but I tried to balance it so it wouldn't be too bad for anyone. I actually mostly tested this event just walking, with no swiftness and no abilities. It's... harder, and sadly less fun, but it IS possible. The problem is if I tune it down any more, then it becomes boring with the use of any abilities. If people have more notes on classes that feel particularly difficult, though, it's good to know.

For people who found it easy - I'm curious if you are able to do it with the nuisance buff that causes her to shoot you more quickly. (You can get it by being the NIO when you enter the instance - just have the IO hang back while you challenge yourself. Full disclosure: that one might not be possible for some classes :P)

Congrats on the encounter, it was pretty fun, and reminded me of a mission in Assassin's Creed Black flag that puts us in pretty much the same situation. Really fun, and a nice callback, intended or no!

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@Connor Fallon.9408 said:

@Taygus.4571 said:(Reading comments, apparently the instance is harder for people who don't open the instance? Thats an odd choice for Anet to make.)

Just following up as I figure the design logic behind this might be interesting to people - it wasn't so much a decision to make it harder as to make it, uh, less easier. (bare with me here :P)

It's true she shoots NIOs more quickly when targeting them than IOs, which would be harder if you were traveling by yourself - but she can only target one person at a time. So every NIO actually gives the whole group more traversal time as a whole, as they can serve as cover for one another if they are clever about it.

Doing it by yourself with the NIO limitation is an interesting challenge, though... for those who wish to prove they can. Those types do exist =)

That's interesting.

I can now tell my friend that it wasn't that I sucked... I was just giving him more time by playing decoy. lol

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@Wolfhound.4381 said:At this point I've stopped trying to get through this instance. I can get through the first part every time, the second part about half the time and have yet to get through the third part. I've tried everything I can think of, speed, invis, mimic/blink, varying the route. I get shot, lose half my base health and the poison kills me. Or the random enemies in the instance do. Very frustrating!

Save up your healing skill? Use the environment for cover? You get healed every impulse that the poison applies damage, so your health doesn't deplete quickly. I really don't see how traversing the field could be such an obstacle. The fight, on the other hand, is much more challenging (if you don't have blocks and aren't quick enough to evade her special attacks).

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