Why People Avoid WvW — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Why People Avoid WvW

Sviel.7493Sviel.7493 Member ✭✭✭
edited September 20, 2018 in WvW

There's a thread on the Guild Wars 2 Reddit currently that asks why non-wvwers don't wvw. It's a gold mine of useful feedback not only for Arenanet, but also for everyone who makes up the wvw community.

One of the themes I keep seeing (and this will not surprise you) is that people have no idea what to do. They don't understand the scoring, don't understand how they may contribute to the scoring and don't know where to find the action.

Part of this problem can only be solved by Anet. If memory serves, sPvP gets a much more detailed introduction than WvW. I went into it knowing exactly what to do and what actions to take to create desirable results. It was just a matter of whether or not I could pull it off. On Anet's side, they have made some improvements like showing how many points some things generate if you're in the area. If someone plays for a long time, they can likely figure out the basics. Unfortunately, they don't tell people this upfront. On ABL/EBG, there's an NPC that gives you an overview of some game aspects. On DBL, at the time I last entered the Citadel, no such NPC existed. If anyone is on Red team currently, can you let me know if it was ever added? Update: Confirmed no Tutorial Instructor in RBL Citadel.

The ABL/EBG Tutorial says that towers allow you to control the roads and can be used as a base of operations. The former concept was stressed in DBL while the latter was stressed in ABL. The Instructor later says that Keeps require a significant and sustained effort to take. Thus suggests that Anet at least initially thought sieges wouldn't just be a single zerg push. However, while the tutorial has been updated to reflect the new point values of objectives, it makes no mention of increasing point values when they upgrade. In fact, it makes no mention of structure upgrades at all.

Perhaps to make things more interesting and more informative, allow for an optional, instanced tutorial where a player must:
-Capture a camp.
-Grab 10 supply from the camp.
-Walk to a nearby tower and place the final 10 supply into a siege engine.
-Finish off a low-health wall/gate.
-Fight the tower lord with NPC allies.

As a continuation or a separate instance, a player can:
-Escort the final Yak to a tower to upgrade it from tier 1 to tier 2. Emphasize the visual change in the walls.
-Defend the tower from an enemy catapult either by running out and blowing it up or by using a counter treb.
-Failing that, defend the tower lord by killing all enemies.
-Spend 10 supply repairing the tower's wall.

Tutorials like that would ensure that people would at least have the basic idea of how to do things. In practice, they'd know what actions to take. It would just be a matter of if they could pull it off with other players taking opposite actions.

There also needs to be a more extensive 'You Won!' celebration. Even if it was as simple as a Special Skirmish chest for any Skirmish where you spent 10+ minutes at tier 1+ activity. The rewards would be based on where your server placed, perhaps, and a semi-big deal would be made of it when you click the chest (not immediately upon receipt as that could interrupt gameplay). This should help give people some idea of what they're fighting for. Also, as a replacement for the old PvE bonuses, perhaps give personal or guild PvE buffs based on server placement and player contribution?


On the other hand, WvW players usually just say to follow a tag. The newbs dutifully follow a tag (if one exists) and are chastised for their build/class choices and total lack of large combat instincts. If this doesn't cause them to quit, they go on to stomp/get stomped in zerg battles and eventually leave without much idea of what just happened. If they don't leave the game mode completely, they still have no clue what to do if there is no tag and lack the confidence to take any sort of initiative.

Following a tag is nice, but it's not a great first step. It would be better for everyone involved if players first had a reason to want to win, then got on tag. They would be more motivated to improve. Right now, the players who fight for the sake of fights tend to adjust well, join a fighting guild, then lament that WvW isn't just all zerg fights all the time. Players who aren't super stoked about large scale combat tend to abandon the game mode entirely.

<1

Comments

  • @Sviel.7493 You deserve some outnumbered pips for this post. I love those ideas.

  • Hesacon.8735Hesacon.8735 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I will admit when I first started wvw it took me 50 ranks just to figure out how "supply" worked.

  • Good thread!

    @Sviel.7493 said:
    On DBL, at the time I last entered the Citadel, no such NPC existed. If anyone is on Red team currently, can you let me know if it was ever added?

    I'm here in the red citadel and I don't see an NPC like that here.

  • This game in general does a pretty bad job of explaining itself, so I do agree with OP's efforts.

  • Loosmaster.8263Loosmaster.8263 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 20, 2018

    Good post for educating the purpose of the game mode. But most "Vets" will tell you they pretty much want all that removed and just want open field fights ...

    Edit: There used to be a sticky in the old forum about the mode that describes it pretty well. But it's rare you see questions here from new players.

    Fàther - Create a mount then kill it until it's more useless than PvE. "Smart"
    Tactical Killers
    Server(DR)

  • Rufo.3716Rufo.3716 Member ✭✭✭

    I usually avoid WvW just because it takes forever to get any type or meaningful rewards out of it. Pips take forever to gain, reward tracks take disgustingly long. That and going afk when you are done playing just so you can make use and get points from the work you've done is just bad design. I would probably play more if progression was just as fast as it was in sPvP.

  • Tails.9372Tails.9372 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I generally don't like playing WvW thanks to how the participation system works. You shouldn't lose participation for anything but being afk in WvW and participation shouldn't be bound to success either.

  • Sviel.7493Sviel.7493 Member ✭✭✭

    Lack of rewards was another theme in that reddit thread, but I think Anet has done a much better job of responding to that one. There's still room to improve, but the situation is far better than it was a few years ago.

    I focused elsewhere because, even if the rewards are great, the underlying game can still be awful or confusing. If people feel they have to put up with that to access great rewards, it's not going to create a healthy situation.

    But I'll take a stab at it....

    What if participation changed to a single threshold above which you got Pips/Participation and below which you did not. Let's say the threshold is low enough that taking a camp (or just killing the camp guards, but not tower/keep guards) or killing a player (or doing significant damage) is enough to reach it. As long as you are over this threshold at some point during every 5 minutes, you get Pips/Participation for that tick. But if you stand still, it decays quickly. After 30s of standing still or 5 minutes of not doing anything, it depletes. Dealing damage to players or objectives, taking damage from other players, completing events, etc. all count as doing something.

    This should allow people to get in and start earning rewards much faster while also removing the incentive/need to afk for a long while after you're done. Essentially, it just moves all those rewards you got while afk to the start of your session when you were originally ramping up.

    If you need to take a break, you may miss rewards during the break, but you can very quickly get right back into the game. On the other hand, for people who now build up and then afk in glitch areas to farm pips, they would have to do something every 5 minutes now instead of every ~30 minutes.

    There's also a need to just generally increase the rewards, but I'll leave that to someone who's more familiar with PvE/sPvP rewards.

  • Zephyra.4709Zephyra.4709 Member ✭✭✭

    I agree with implementing an instanced tutorial, near the end it could ask to clear out enemy invader NPCs (similar to the npc professions in pvp). This would be ideal for newbies to lead them in the right direction regarding starting out and actively participating. Then move onto combat - a lot goes in on a fight let them know to avoid large pulsing red circles (mimic enemy bomb). Yeah definitely a lot just tell you to go join a tag without actually informing you how to help the zerg as a whole or survive in a fight.

    Rewards (shinies) are always something players want more of; sadly there are those that only want the shinies and care little for the genuine 'activity/fun' of the game mode itself. I lean more towards rewarding gaming experience but if both were fine tuned it's a welcome change. I still think unused skills such as treb water field shots could be more fun to use. Admittedly the physical rewards such as asc armor/trinket acquisition are far better than they were years ago (I don't understand why certain players think there is a of barrier for entry regarding stats considering I started off with core cleric stats on a fresh acc, played just fine, and slowly but surely acquired minstrel exotics via reward tracks). Many speak up about how 'boring' or time/effort doesn't feel up to par. Let's be real here, spending 2+ hours and taking a T3 objective gives you same amount if it were paper. I checked the wiki and didn't see anything regarding scaling when it comes to taking tiered objectives so correct me if I'm wrong. Maybe throw in a chance for ascended box regarding T3's or reward memory of battle currency? At least MoB can generate some income to cover the cost of cracking into that T3 if you dropped a handful of siege in the first place.

    Anyway I'm probably rambling so I'll leave it at that.

  • Justine.6351Justine.6351 Member ✭✭✭✭

    There is roaming or there is zerging.
    If you cannot find a zerg you roam which means you have to figure out what wvw is since nobody is directing to you what it is.

    WvW is a sandbox. The environment and objectives are static, its the players that can be manipulated. It can take 30min or more to get the map to move the way you want it. Players that enter WvW roaming without this understanding that they are really playing a game of chess end up confused and underwhelmed that there is not a tangible reward or trophy for controlling the map rather than merely killing random enemies and flipping objectives.

    Its the difference between banging on pots & pans and playing the violin.

    Anet buff me :-(
    Make me good at game!

  • Gatekeeping is a big factor as to why there's rarely fresh blood in WvW. Everyone knows it but it doesn't change. Some people think WvW is their personal playground and that attitude does a lot more harm than tourists coming and going from the game now and then. A reputation like that spreads among the players and when you're seen as a "toxic community" it's very hard to change that perception.

    Also I believe that WvW would benefit from the PvP Style gear system. It would do a lot to curb the broken nonsense. It exists in some weird space between actual PvP and PvE and that never worked for me and some others I know. Pick a side is my view on that.

  • ArchonWing.9480ArchonWing.9480 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 21, 2018

    @coro.3176 said:
    I don't get why people care so much about the rewards. What do you even get out of it? A few armour and weapon skins? hundreds of blues and greens to be salvaged into sigils taking up space in your inventory? Literal pennies worth of imaginary currency? If it's 5, 10, 50% less efficient than any other part of the game, it's still the same garbage items filling up your bags.

    If you just play for fun - especially on an outnumbered map - you'll get your pips for the week and have your legendary set within some number of months. It's easier than scheduling raids by far.

    But hey, if it'll get people interested, by all means increase the rewards. As a primarily WvW player, it means nothing to me.

    I think it is purely psychological that they're still accomplishing something regardless of what happens. To people on the fence with limited time, it can make sense, even if in reality it's not much of substance. It's the same reason why people ping [200 Heavy Loot Bags] even though it's not really worth very much. Sort of a "I played WvW and all I got was this lousy t-shirt" kind of thing.

    It's the thought that counts.

  • The ONLY reason i avoid wvw maps is because i don't see any comm on it or a comm with locked entrencre. The only reason i want wvw is to do high scale battles between my allies and enemys and the better the commander the better the experience i get from it . But if i log in and see no commander on each map i instantly log off becuase i don't care to solo myself into worthless duels or other kitten arround the map. And i do this in pve aswell if a map has a comm most likely i will play it if not i will just assume its a dead map with nothing to it. Because i don't care about single player experience in a MMO game, i want to do epic stuff with people arround me and a commander who instructs us on what to do to us sheeps since he made his homework around the map and all events, and last the loot i get from it.

  • I have come across few non wvw players that just hate dying.
    They rage quit if they die in dungeon/raid/fractal and same here in wvw.
    Also with gears, what they run in pve will not always work in wvw. It is something they gotta accept and adapt.
    Also when we have bunch of gankers that just beat the living kitten out of them doesn't help either.

  • GDchiaScrub.3241GDchiaScrub.3241 Member ✭✭✭✭

    It would have been nice if WvW had a tutorial. So imagine if there was one in the very beginning! Now consider all the feature-creep additions that have changed WvW since then...after all Masteries weren't a thing until late. The most recent impacts would be gliding and territories. At the very least the OP's suggestions haven't changed too much with time, but they also don't address tactivators, masteries, claiming, and territories. Of course a tutorial may have forced devs to consider more carefully any changes that would have been implemented...

    D:

    RISE guild best guild super RPers trash blob guild [RISE] always dies on inc masters of the Die On Inc technique where Prince Jarvan just died.

    Holy Warriors of [Kazo] following Kazo doctrine guided by, Our Lord and Commander, Zudo in the holy Trinity of Him and his two firm glutes.

  • Zawn.9647Zawn.9647 Member ✭✭✭

    loved your ideas! :)
    but... as always... devs will ignore this post since they are very professional only care about pve

  • @Tails.9372 said:
    I generally don't like playing WvW thanks to how the participation system works. You shouldn't lose participation for anything but being afk in WvW and participation shouldn't be bound to success either.

    I tend to agree with this one, however it can be easily abused... For example, if you have a scout in a Keep that's spending what most find as boring time refreshing siege now and then and shouting out if enemy comes then that person should be able to continue to get participation. The squads can give participation sharing to these people though.. because the problem comes when several people decide to "be scouts" and afk in the Keeps and/or Towers.

    Just another WvW lifer who'll never say die... while dying again and again!

  • @Loosmaster.8263 said:
    Good post for educating the purpose of the game mode. But most "Vets" will tell you they pretty much want all that removed and just want open field fights ...

    Edit: There used to be a sticky in the old forum about the mode that describes it pretty well. But it's rare you see questions here from new players.

    If WvW was an open field for just fights then you would see it die a boring death fairly quickly I believe. I've been in WvW for almost 6 yrs now. I like all parts of WvW actually. Sometimes I like to fight a lot, sometimes I like to havoc, sometimes I roam (not much anymore since mes/thief gank groups pop out of nowhere a LOT). If WvW was changed so it was all really just one big open field battle ground that would seriously end my WvW dedication. I might go in a couple times a week to find some fights then leave after an hour or so.

    Just another WvW lifer who'll never say die... while dying again and again!

  • PvP is an alien and scary environment for PvE players. And the typical team chat in WvW doesn't help. The environment and the team chat is brutal. Getting wtfganked is demoralizing. It's hard to explain to pve players to ignore all of that.

    WvW is about as easy going as PvP can get though. Not sure what ANET could do to make it better..

  • Strider Pj.2193Strider Pj.2193 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Verthurnax.2784 said:
    The ONLY reason i avoid wvw maps is because i don't see any comm on it or a comm with locked entrencre. The only reason i want wvw is to do high scale battles between my allies and enemys and the better the commander the better the experience i get from it . But if i log in and see no commander on each map i instantly log off becuase i don't care to solo myself into worthless duels or other kitten arround the map. And i do this in pve aswell if a map has a comm most likely i will play it if not i will just assume its a dead map with nothing to it. Because i don't care about single player experience in a MMO game, i want to do epic stuff with people arround me and a commander who instructs us on what to do to us sheeps since he made his homework around the map and all events, and last the loot i get from it.

    So, you look on all 4 maps then?

    Because if you are logging in during prime or semi prime hours, very few servers are that bleak.

    And as far as a locked group: unless it's a specific guild raid, they only lock it from players that won't join voice coms, or refuse to use a class that helps.

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 21, 2018

    @Sviel.7493 said:
    There's a thread on the Guild Wars 2 Reddit currently that asks why non-wvwers don't wvw. It's a gold mine of useful feedback not only for Arenanet, but also for everyone who makes up the wvw community.

    One of the themes I keep seeing (and this will not surprise you) is that people have no idea what to do. They don't understand the scoring, don't understand how they may contribute to the scoring and don't know where to find the action.

    Part of this problem can only be solved by Anet. If memory serves, sPvP gets a much more detailed introduction than WvW. I went into it knowing exactly what to do and what actions to take to create desirable results. It was just a matter of whether or not I could pull it off. On Anet's side, they have made some improvements like showing how many points some things generate if you're in the area. If someone plays for a long time, they can likely figure out the basics. Unfortunately, they don't tell people this upfront. On ABL/EBG, there's an NPC that gives you an overview of some game aspects. On DBL, at the time I last entered the Citadel, no such NPC existed. If anyone is on Red team currently, can you let me know if it was ever added? Update: Confirmed no Tutorial Instructor in RBL Citadel.

    The ABL/EBG Tutorial says that towers allow you to control the roads and can be used as a base of operations. The former concept was stressed in DBL while the latter was stressed in ABL. The Instructor later says that Keeps require a significant and sustained effort to take. Thus suggests that Anet at least initially thought sieges wouldn't just be a single zerg push. However, while the tutorial has been updated to reflect the new point values of objectives, it makes no mention of increasing point values when they upgrade. In fact, it makes no mention of structure upgrades at all.

    Perhaps to make things more interesting and more informative, allow for an optional, instanced tutorial where a player must:
    -Capture a camp.
    -Grab 10 supply from the camp.
    -Walk to a nearby tower and place the final 10 supply into a siege engine.
    -Finish off a low-health wall/gate.
    -Fight the tower lord with NPC allies.

    As a continuation or a separate instance, a player can:
    -Escort the final Yak to a tower to upgrade it from tier 1 to tier 2. Emphasize the visual change in the walls.
    -Defend the tower from an enemy catapult either by running out and blowing it up or by using a counter treb.
    -Failing that, defend the tower lord by killing all enemies.
    -Spend 10 supply repairing the tower's wall.

    Tutorials like that would ensure that people would at least have the basic idea of how to do things. In practice, they'd know what actions to take. It would just be a matter of if they could pull it off with other players taking opposite actions.

    There also needs to be a more extensive 'You Won!' celebration. Even if it was as simple as a Special Skirmish chest for any Skirmish where you spent 10+ minutes at tier 1+ activity. The rewards would be based on where your server placed, perhaps, and a semi-big deal would be made of it when you click the chest (not immediately upon receipt as that could interrupt gameplay). This should help give people some idea of what they're fighting for. Also, as a replacement for the old PvE bonuses, perhaps give personal or guild PvE buffs based on server placement and player contribution?


    On the other hand, WvW players usually just say to follow a tag. The newbs dutifully follow a tag (if one exists) and are chastised for their build/class choices and total lack of large combat instincts. If this doesn't cause them to quit, they go on to stomp/get stomped in zerg battles and eventually leave without much idea of what just happened. If they don't leave the game mode completely, they still have no clue what to do if there is no tag and lack the confidence to take any sort of initiative.

    Following a tag is nice, but it's not a great first step. It would be better for everyone involved if players first had a reason to want to win, then got on tag. They would be more motivated to improve. Right now, the players who fight for the sake of fights tend to adjust well, join a fighting guild, then lament that WvW isn't just all zerg fights all the time. Players who aren't super stoked about large scale combat tend to abandon the game mode entirely.

    Few things...

    My experience has been that a ton of people do not bother to look at outside resources to learn about the game. A simple check on the official wiki provides all the basic info, and answers the majority of questions a player might have. I’d much prefer the devs send a game mail that makes players aware of the wvw wiki section, as opposed to devoting resources creating any type of tutorial. The devs could also include a bump for Metabattle so players can look at some build options for various parts of the game.

    Right, winning could be made more meaningful through rewards, so I think we can all agree that some type of reward improvements would be great. WvW is way more trial and error due to the fact that we are dealing with mostly players, not scripted AI that can be memorized in a couple tries. There are some large learning curves in wvw so I feel strong, and unique, reward hooks should be in place.

    As is, there are more gamers who prefer to do pve stuff and avoid pvp stuff at all costs, so a pvp mode needs to have regular updates, better profession and mechanics “balance” to create enjoyable combat scenarios. Maybe some ways for pve players to contribute to wvw on their own terms too... like some pve/pvp maps added to each wvw side so players can play on their own terms and get comfortable and more experienced.

    Trying to pull in new players is kind of moot at this point because wvw development is very very very far behind the pve side of the game. This mode, and professions, need a lot of love before the devs can try to convince players to participate in wvw. Tutorials and reward bumps wouldn’t be attractive enough for the longer run.

  • Strider Pj.2193Strider Pj.2193 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @Sviel.7493 said:
    There's a thread

    Mind posting the thread from reddit?

    He embedded the link to the thread in his post. I included it above.

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 21, 2018

    @Strider Pj.2193 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @Sviel.7493 said:
    There's a thread

    Mind posting the thread from reddit?

    He embedded the link to the thread in his post. I included it above.

    Oh, thanks! I’m on mobile so it wasn’t easy to spot

  • SkyShroud.2865SkyShroud.2865 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 21, 2018

    The top two upvote comments are rewards.
    The 3rd upvote comments is "I never know what I'm meant to be doing, and I don't have enough interest in it to do some research."
    I believe the keywords are not the first part of the sentence but rather the second part. People simply have no interest in doing it.

    Fifth upvote comment is "It's boring"
    6th is "This mode is one big time gate. I don't like time gates, so I play other things." which means reward.
    7th is "While running around in a huge zerg is fun, reward tracks aren't." which again rewards.
    8th is "Mainly cause I don't find a commander when I enter." which is related to population imbalance issue which I mentioned many months ago.
    9th upvote is a bit more detailed which include rewards, optimizations, prefer to play with elite players, lack goals...
    10th upvote again is population imbalance
    11th upvote is summarize to I don't see the point aka boring/no goals

    In summary, most people playing gw2 are just pvers, not pvxers or pvpers. Rather fight monsters than humans. Those that complain lack of goals are people who prefer open world pvp than this pvp battelfield. I am sure the posts will be useful for newbies that are interested but definitely not gonna be search upon by most people that voted in reddit.

    Founder & Leader of Equinox Solstice [TIME], a Singapore-Based International PvX Guild
    Henge of Denravi Server
    www.gw2time.com

    --

    Explanations of WvW Structures & Populations Issues

  • Here is the guide for WvW: Follow and watch players who seem to know what to do. Help them, and you will learn.

  • coro.3176coro.3176 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @SkyShroud.2865 said:
    The top two upvote comments are rewards.
    The 3rd upvote comments is "I never know what I'm meant to be doing, and I don't have enough interest in it to do some research."
    I believe the keywords are not the first part of the sentence but rather the second part. People simply have no interest in doing it.

    Fifth upvote comment is "It's boring"
    6th is "This mode is one big time gate. I don't like time gates, so I play other things." which means reward.
    7th is "While running around in a huge zerg is fun, reward tracks aren't." which again rewards.
    8th is "Mainly cause I don't find a commander when I enter." which is related to population imbalance issue which I mentioned many months ago.
    9th upvote is a bit more detailed which include rewards, optimizations, prefer to play with elite players, lack goals...
    10th upvote again is population imbalance
    11th upvote is summarize to I don't see the point aka boring/no goals

    In summary, most people playing gw2 are just pvers, not pvxers or pvpers. Rather fight monsters than humans. Those that complain lack of goals are people who prefer open world pvp than this pvp battelfield. I am sure the posts will be useful for newbies that are interested but definitely not gonna be search upon by most people that voted in reddit.

    I will never understand people's need to acquire more meaningless currency, or to fill their bags with nearly-worthless trash.

    The opportunity to test your skill against other real people is the reward. Winning that 1v2 ambush feels great. Capturing that keep seconds before the enemy blob can reach it, then pushing out to wipe them feels great.

    but sitting around in spawn getting pips so that you can get some chests full of strongboxes full of bags full of boxes full of pouches full of blues and greens full of trash sigils and worthless crafting mats? I'm not surprised people don't like that.

  • @Sviel.7493 said:
    On the other hand, WvW players usually just say to follow a tag. The newbs dutifully follow a tag (if one exists) and are chastised for their build/class choices and total lack of large combat instincts. If this doesn't cause them to quit, they go on to stomp/get stomped in zerg battles and eventually leave without much idea of what just happened. If they don't leave the game mode completely, they still have no clue what to do if there is no tag and lack the confidence to take any sort of initiative.

    Following a tag is nice, but it's not a great first step. It would be better for everyone involved if players first had a reason to want to win, then got on tag. They would be more motivated to improve. Right now, the players who fight for the sake of fights tend to adjust well, join a fighting guild, then lament that WvW isn't just all zerg fights all the time. Players who aren't super stoked about large scale combat tend to abandon the game mode entirely.

    That's me in a nutshell. I am not really sure what to do in WvW. So I always try to find a squad that I can follow. Finding one that isn't already full or whatever is difficult sometimes.

    I prefer PvE, but sometimes I need to do WvW for the badges. And now, I need the gift of battle. It's overwhelming for me to think about the gift of battle. How long will that take a noob like me? :/ I wish I would understand WvW a little bit better...maybe then it would be actually fun?

    The only things I think I 'understand': run after the commander and fight the enemy players and NPCs. Stand in the blue circle to take the place over. Take supplies and help build things that the others want to be build. Don't die or else it will be a pain in the kitten to find your squad again xD Oh, and NEVER pull any levers! People want to lynch you if you pull that lever, no matter how curious you are! O_O I made that mistake once and I am still ashamed and really sorry for that °A° Seems like that lever was really important...

  • Sviel.7493Sviel.7493 Member ✭✭✭

    @SkyShroud.2865
    To be fair, prior to joining WvW, I was also 'just a PvEer.' And if we want the game mode to flourish, it has to be able to draw a decent subset of PvE players.

    Besides, while the rewards may be why they initially come to WvW, some may stay or get interested if the game mode is actually fun/engaging/sensible. I came to WvW because I was a lvl ~30 noob and couldn't figure out how to easily do any of the other dailies. I stayed because there was a lot going on and I wanted to find a way to be helpful. It helped that I have a very high tolerance for arcane and poorly explained game systems--as a kid, I read encyclopedias rather than comics. I also had many helpful people along the way.

    If we can smooth out that PvE -> WvW transition, we'll see far more new blood and, from that, new veterans will eventually emerge.

    @Myrdreth.6829
    I'm actually really disappointed that you pulled that lever...

  • I'd like to throw the "monotonous" hat into the ring. Player retention is a bit of an issue, because for the most part it is all the same stuff. Even if you know what to do, you'll soon learn there isn't much to do:

    Kill lookouts
    Take Camps
    Build Siege
    Take Tower
    Hope a big enough group comes together to take stonemist or a keep

    Sometimes you'll get good ship to ship battles, but mostly it is superior numbers crushing a smaller group. In my current tier, the borderlands are all but abandoned, and the only place any fighting occurs is in EBG. Now, this is fine if you only do this for a week, but this isn't sustainable for years at a time.

    "Self awareness is knowing when you're sitting at the throne of ignorance." --Leo G.

  • SkyShroud.2865SkyShroud.2865 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 22, 2018

    @Sviel.7493 said:
    @SkyShroud.2865
    To be fair, prior to joining WvW, I was also 'just a PvEer.' And if we want the game mode to flourish, it has to be able to draw a decent subset of PvE players.

    Besides, while the rewards may be why they initially come to WvW, some may stay or get interested if the game mode is actually fun/engaging/sensible. I came to WvW because I was a lvl ~30 noob and couldn't figure out how to easily do any of the other dailies. I stayed because there was a lot going on and I wanted to find a way to be helpful. It helped that I have a very high tolerance for arcane and poorly explained game systems--as a kid, I read encyclopedias rather than comics. I also had many helpful people along the way.

    If we can smooth out that PvE -> WvW transition, we'll see far more new blood and, from that, new veterans will eventually emerge.

    Well, you talking to a large PvX guild's leader here. We are always drawing in pve players to play wvw but one must not forget that wvw is dominated by people who just want to win and get drunk with that ego. Compare to the distant past, pvx guilds in wvw is now a rare breed, in a way, that explains why the decline of wvw since no more guilds trying to bring in new players, let alone guide new players. Bringing in players while combating the loss of players from other factors is just a losing battle. From the timeline given by the top wvw guilds of the past, it takes an average 6 months to train newbies to become vet, no wvw guilds doing that now, only pvx guilds doing it. The culture shifted much since years.

    Founder & Leader of Equinox Solstice [TIME], a Singapore-Based International PvX Guild
    Henge of Denravi Server
    www.gw2time.com

    --

    Explanations of WvW Structures & Populations Issues

  • Fipmip.7219Fipmip.7219 Member ✭✭✭

    When I joined WvW a year or so ago my first take was "where are the fights? Where's the battle at? this is the gamemode with the big battles right? lets have some fun, where is it!?" cue running for about half an hour until I was able to figure out what WvW was actually like for casuals: run after the commander tag for dat max WXP and occasionally stare at the enemy zerg while the guys with 1.314x10^200 range AOEs throw out as many sexy kitten numbers as they can while backpedalling wildly.

    Meanwhile I can jump into planetside 2, god rest its soul, and get sweet fights whenever I kitten well please. and that game has a fraction of the population of GW2. I cant for the life of me figure out why GW2 wont just embrace the fact it's for casuals and make WvW into a funhouse, while removing all this notion of 'muh backcapping' and 'muh small scale strats.' The goal of WvW should be lighting a fire under a big battle and stoking it for as long as possible. That means more respawn points, deployable respawn points in the form of siege camps you can bring with you, respawning at places under seige, comeback mechanics, locking off areas at low pop times, anything and everything to simply get the ball rolling so people can jump in, see where the fun is and start WvWing.

  • Sviel.7493Sviel.7493 Member ✭✭✭

    @SkyShroud.2865
    Come to think of it, I never considered how PvX guilds could help players adjust. While I still hope to see a tutorial, perhaps it would also be worthwhile to give some guild bonuses based on the WvW performance of the guild's alliance...when that comes out.

    I was lucky enough to be 'trained' by a veteran Pugmander on our server. Perhaps I ought to give him more credit.

  • Batel.9206Batel.9206 Member ✭✭✭

    The only part of WvW that I'd want to get into is...a pet for my ranger. There's one pet, the Juvenile Wolf, that is only found in a WvW map. If I could, I'd go into WvW, run to the pet, tame it, then immediately exit WvW mode. Goal achieved, nothing more to do here, let more competent people have their fun.

    But frankly, I'm too nervous to do even that. From what I can gather, every space in WvW is precious. People wait in queues to get in. More people playing = more people who are expected to know exactly what to do, exactly where to go, and exactly what builds/gear are the best. If I deviate from those requirements, I can expect the entire short run to the pet to be filled with people either continually murderizing me or hurling abuse in chat. (Am I wrong about those assumptions...? It can't be that bad, can it?)

    Besides that, if every space a player fills is precious, I don't want to accidentally lock someone else - someone far more competent and experienced than I - out of the game mode for even a few minutes. It's unfair to them (and to their team) that they should have to wait while I get a pet for nothing more than aesthetic/RP appeal. And on top of everything else...WvW looks ridiculously complicated. Is there a specific build I need? Gear? Rotation? Where to go, what to do when I get there? These maps are huge! What's this about following a Commander tag? Fighting in large-scale groups (unless I play on the lowest settings possible, my computer would throw a fit if I tried that, and I'd be dead in two seconds flat while I'm frozen and unable to move/react)? Gah. I'd rather stick with story-mode/open world PVE and the occasional match of unranked PVP.

    So, in short: the short bit of time I'd need isn't worth it and isn't fair to other players, and WvW seems way too complicated for me, a person who loves this game but is still very bad at it, to dip my toes in. And that is why I avoid WvW. /bow

    fear not this night
    you will not go astray

  • Sviel.7493Sviel.7493 Member ✭✭✭

    @Batel.9206

    The only time space is at a premium is late on Friday night. Even then, no one is going to to be too upset about one person grabbing a pet in a few minutes. I can almost guarantee that no one will notice at all. But, depending on your server matchup, you may get ganked. It depends on where the Juvenile Wolf is and how far you have to run and how close you come to objectives.

    WvW is technically complicated, but it is pretty rare that any server is running at maximum players. That means that even if you join without a clue of what to do, you'll still end up being more helpful than no-one at all. Just don't pull any levers (they are server-wide skills with server wide CDs) and only get supply from camps instead of places with walls (at least starting out). Feel free to ask anything in /m chat, though try to keep /t chat clear as it broadcasts over all 4 maps. I would not recommend following a commander right off as they tend to be the ragiest folks around (with decent reason). Finally, there are plenty of things you can do without running in a large group and without tons of combat prowess that will have a profound effect on your team's chances of victory. Scouting, repairing, maintaining camps/shrines/ruins and counter-siege are all among them. If you want to know more, ask in /m or /t chat for a scout that you can shadow. We tend to be pretty chill. We have to be, since we routinely see hours of work destroyed in minutes Q_Q

  • Klipso.8653Klipso.8653 Member ✭✭✭✭

    If a player doesn't like PvP they won't go to WvW regardless of how many tutorials you give them

    -Balwarc [ICoa]

  • X T D.6458X T D.6458 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I have no interest in instanced content like dungeons, raids, fractals so I dont bother learning about them. A lot of people either have no interest in multiplayer/pvp content because of poor experiences in other games. Misconceptions and misunderstandings also play a big role, this is different from not knowing. If you already have a negative view of a gamemode, you wont have incentive to engage in it, learn it, and improve. Some people also cant handle the physical impact of competitive gameplay, adrenaline can have different impacts on people. Some people thrive on it, others not so much.

    BG

  • SkyShroud.2865SkyShroud.2865 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sviel.7493 said:
    @SkyShroud.2865
    Come to think of it, I never considered how PvX guilds could help players adjust. While I still hope to see a tutorial, perhaps it would also be worthwhile to give some guild bonuses based on the WvW performance of the guild's alliance...when that comes out.

    I was lucky enough to be 'trained' by a veteran Pugmander on our server. Perhaps I ought to give him more credit.

    Well, nowadays pvx guilds are just pve guilds in disguise. There were a lot more legit pvx guilds back then. Most vets nowadays just stack server, all just to avoid noobs. There isn't a lot of pugmanders that interested to teach newbies nowadays, it just isn't rewarding for them to do so, not tangible rewards but non-tangible ones. I mean, why would anyone wan to train pugs if you know they just gonna bandwagon to win.

    Founder & Leader of Equinox Solstice [TIME], a Singapore-Based International PvX Guild
    Henge of Denravi Server
    www.gw2time.com

    --

    Explanations of WvW Structures & Populations Issues

  • Update, why I like to avoid wvw: The community in wvw is rude as hell. Tried to play it today and the mapchat is so unfriendly...I know why I prefer PvE, the community there is so much nicer!

  • Grim West.3194Grim West.3194 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 23, 2018

    @Myrdreth.6829 said:
    Update, why I like to avoid wvw: The community in wvw is rude as hell. Tried to play it today and the mapchat is so unfriendly...I know why I prefer PvE, the community there is so much nicer!

    Aye. Some servers are worse than others but in general there are a lot of broken people talking in WvW chat.

    Best to just to ignore them. They aren't saying anything useful. Remember you pay for the game just as they did. You have every right to be there and if they don't like it they can leave.

    WvW isn't a great game mode, but it can be a lot of fun at times. Like most things though, it takes practice to get good.

  • Loosmaster.8263Loosmaster.8263 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Grim West.3194 said:

    @Myrdreth.6829 said:
    Update, why I like to avoid wvw: The community in wvw is rude as hell. Tried to play it today and the mapchat is so unfriendly...I know why I prefer PvE, the community there is so much nicer!

    Aye. Some servers are worse than others but in general there are a lot of broken people talking in WvW chat.

    Best to just to ignore them. They aren't saying anything useful. Remember you pay for the game just as they did. You have every right to be there and if they don't like it they can leave.

    WvW isn't a great game mode, but it can be a lot of fun at times. Like most things though, it takes practice to get good.

    I have /team off for almost a year now. I put it back on this last relink. Lasted 30 seconds before it went right back off.

    Fàther - Create a mount then kill it until it's more useless than PvE. "Smart"
    Tactical Killers
    Server(DR)

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 23, 2018

    I used to love wvw, but I got tired of running around in zerg for 1 fight every 30min-1hr. I don't want to pvgate. I don't want to flip camps or run supply to cata some dumb tower. I just want fights. Currently pvp is better at providing them. Definitely don't want to face perma stealth deadeyes, condi mirages, or 1 shot soulbeasts in broken pve gear. This games balance is too bad for that.

    The horror...…….the horror...…….the horror...…….

  • Sviel.7493Sviel.7493 Member ✭✭✭

    I think WvW is distinct from PvP even though it involves PvP. In sPvP, for instance, your value as a player is determined chiefly by your skill in battle. In WvW, you can be a huge asset to your server even with poor battle capability. Obviously, being able to fight well is always a plus, but there are many more dimensions to excel in. For that same reason, people who only want to PvP will probably never be completely satisfied in WvW.

    Also for that reason, I don't think that WvW is a non-starter for players who dislike PvP.

    @Myrdreth.6829
    Can I ask what server you're on? Not that it will help at all...I'm just curious.

  • Yeah, thanks, I will ignore them now too. :<

  • I try very hard not to avoid WvW since I really like the concept of it, my only problem is crybaby commanders/lieutenants who kick you from squads/insult you on map chat for running a specific class that doesn't meet "meta". I understand that for the team to win a teamfight it's best to run only firebrands and scourges but come on... I know I can still follow the squad but the feeling of being excluded out of the group isn't welcoming.

    Of course I mean no offense to the commanders, in fact I've also met many nice ones and more helpful to new people. It certainly isn't easy to lead a big group of people from which 60% doesn't have any idea what they're doing.

  • @sitarskee.5738 said:
    I try very hard not to avoid WvW since I really like the concept of it, my only problem is crybaby commanders/lieutenants who kick you from squads/insult you on map chat for running a specific class that doesn't meet "meta". I understand that for the team to win a teamfight it's best to run only firebrands and scourges but come on... I know I can still follow the squad but the feeling of being excluded out of the group isn't welcoming.

    Of course I mean no offense to the commanders, in fact I've also met many nice ones and more helpful to new people. It certainly isn't easy to lead a big group of people from which 60% doesn't have any idea what they're doing.

    That's exactly what happened to me. And then they insulted me and made fun about me reporting them to Anet (even though I didn't report anybody and just walked away?) xD

  • Dami.5046Dami.5046 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I'm sure someone looking on the forum for how wvw is , is met with let's say hardly the most friendly of threads. People has already touched on the meta/class issue as well. People want to play a game for fun and enjoyment, not talked down because they want to play a thief and meta builds wangles a finger and says 'you aint meta'
    It's a shame people these days have to be like this.

  • XenesisII.1540XenesisII.1540 Member ✭✭✭✭

    The game mode probably does need some sort of interactive basic instructions to tell players what's what and what they could do. I don't know how big of a book of instructions players are expecting though, because you go to a map like Silverwastes which has a couple similar mechanics to wvw and they're not told how to do everything. When they go into new fractals or raids they're not given instructions on everything, some things need to be left to be explored and figured out by the player, or wait for someone else to do it and watch the video of it I suppose.

    The real tutorial probably comes from following a pug tag around, where you can experience a lot of what wvw has to offer, same with pve where players follow tags around maps for events, the problem is wvw is a much harsher place because you're competing against two other sides(sometimes three), plus wvw has been dying as well as the rotation of new/old pugmanders.

    Rewards might be a problem for most of those players, but then again they play in pve for a reason (other than "exploration"), to chase that carrot stick of loot and they tend to go for the greatest source with the easiest effort to obtain, there's a reason why things like the istan silverwastes and frostgorge k-trains existed. First and foremost for wvw though, a player needs to enjoy pvp, if they don't they probably shouldn't be in there and should do pve instead for rewards. I'm not saying wvw shouldn't have decent rewards, but it's not the main reason to play wvw or spvp unlike pve.

    The game mode isn't linear and I think this is something a lot of players would struggle with too, there aren't strict lanes for you to push, there aren't markers or breadcrumb clues showing you what to do next, you don't get to the end and fight the big baddie lord to get the phat loot, sometimes I think a lattice system would work to help with this. But it's a sandbox for you to do whatever whenever and rewards flow to you as you play, which is also nice having different options of game play. There's many things you can do in wvw but you have to actually put in some time, gain the experience of playing in order to learn it all, once you learn it becomes pretty easy.

    If a player doesn't have a wvw guild for the most part they need beacons on maps for activity, I've thought one of the things they should add is another sword color to show fights between 10-15 players, like the orange swords would show 25+, and maybe red swords for 50+. Or maybe start adding some random mini events on the map of like capturing this enemy tower and gain 25% more karma and wxp, to motivate players to gather and attack without needing a commander to do so, the pve maps especially meta maps are littered with events to do without needing commanders. (Also the barrier to even have a tag is higher in wvw, as you need to buy it unlike pve which has a free one).

    Maybe they could set eotm up with a short tutorial to go out to a camp and get some supply and explain what that does, then go over and activate siegerazor to go out and capture a tower, with them building the siege as usual, and explain the reason for all that to the player, that should be enough of a tutorial to get started. They had a short tutorial in spvp showing how to do finishers too.

    Heck it would probably help just to pop up a quick tutorial screen (you know the same type used to sell expansions in game) when you first enter wvw to tell you the basics, instead of missing the tutorial npc right in front of you when you spawn in, and who apparently doesn't even exist on the desert map, his chalkboard icon should probably be replaced with a huge blinking pink icon that says [HEY NEWBIE TALK TO ME FIRST], maybe change the char model to something bigger. Btw the tutorial does show and explain the area, and gives some basic information for wvw but that part could be expanded and polished up a bit.

    Another derailing post. ^^
    EBG North Keep: One of the village residents will now flee if their home is destroyed!
    || Stealth is a Terribad Mechanic ||

  • Sviel.7493Sviel.7493 Member ✭✭✭

    In the Silverwastes, players don't have to be told what to do because it's just a series of events that are like all the other events in the game. You run out into the staging area and immediately see that you need to escort supplies, rebuild a wall or fight some weeds. Later, you go underground and fight more weeds at the area marked on your map. Then you come back up and fight even more weeds at a different area marked on your map. No tutorial necessary because it's just a standard chaining event--complete with NPCs yelling constant instructions.

    In WvW, you have no map markings besides team colors and the events are vague Wvw-specific things like 'Assault this thing' or 'Defend this thing.' But no where in the rest of a game has a player had to place their own siege and use supply to build it. Also, simply taking things isn't enough--without understanding upgrades, scoring, etc, there's no reason to care about gaining territory and certainly no reason to defend it. A k-train is constant action/rewards of varying quality. Defense is spikes of action after indefinite waiting and myriad false alarms...all with no personal loot drops. Obviously, people will choose the k-train because the value of defense is unknowable without understanding the larger game system.

  • Knighthonor.4061Knighthonor.4061 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I don't think confusion is the main reason non WvWers don't do WvW. Speaking from experience, the appeal of WvW is the large scale pvp battles which seem far to far between, with most of the gameplay Turing into the old WvW Farm map of running place to place trading capture points. Defense don't even seem like it matters anymore and the quest/events seem pointless now. WvW just doesn't have any appeal as the original hype made it out to be. There are no group roles in Zerg fights. WvW needs a passive damage reduction like most MMOs games have for their PvP.

    Also another problem with WvW is that if you get eliminated during the Zerg fights while following the leaders, it's sometimes hard to get back to the Zerg to continue the large fights because normally you only have 1 waypoint for your team outside the starting area. That means lots of running time if you even make it back before a wanderer or Zerg kills you. Game needs better Rez mechanics and better mechanics to get back to the Zerg and fights.

    WvW needs more objectives that are equally important or close to being equally as important as offensive zerging is. The events, the NPC factions, the PvPvE elements need to be more important in the game. Right now they are meaningless or weak and not fun or valued.

    Also many people also want to play other supportive roles in WvW large scale fights, same as support players play in Raids. Problem is Support is still not as equally valued in WvW due to how fast people die, downed mechanics and a number of other things. I gave one solution which is a passive incoming damage reduction from other players. But outgoing healing needs a passive boost as well
    I have more ideas to handle this but I rather make my own detailed redesign thread for WvW with my ideas neatly explained.

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