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Thieves ruin WvW


Gondolph.7201

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@Sviel.7493 said:Rather than adding a new usurping mechanic, why not just give stealth traps a reveal that is unique from player reveals?

Which is...technically a new usurping mechanic, but w/e q_q

Yes! We can call it super-reveal. And then deadeye can get a new elite skill that counters super-reveal and applies super-stealth. Then we can get a new trap that removes super-stealth and applies super-mega-reveal. And then deadeye can get a new trait that counters super-mega-reveal and applies ULTIMATE STEALTH, which removes them from sight and prevents them from interacting with other players until anet figures out how to make stealth counterplay work.

:)

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@DemonSeed.3528 said:This is why after every cap, we make sure to clear out all the dots before the timer goes off. This is what happens when the comm just leaves after a cap. You have to be responsible to make sure no enemies are left on inner. If comm doesn't care to do these things they deem aren't a problem, it can become one and it's not the thief/whatever is left insides fault. On the other hand, if the thief can't be useful in any way to a zerg, this is a good example of something they could do.That's the problem though, if it was after a cap, it would not be as problematic. This mainly happened when we were defending a keep and outer and/or inner walls were down before the enemies could be beaten back. Especially on Stoic Rampart the walls go down so quickly at times, getting the defense in there usually means you're taking the enemy blob out at the golem.And at that point you won't find Deadeyes anymore, especially not with all the hiding places around.

I do remember - this was quite a few updates ago though - that Baruch really loved to have a thief + mesmer duo around which would pretty much be perma stealthed until the defenders left. They were constantly doing that at bay one time, back when I was on Drakkar/Miller. Also quite nasty, but I'm uncertain whether that is even possible anymore.

It's also a very bad thing, that some classes, like Ele, have no way to fight stealth at all. If at least every class had a reliable reveal, it'd be a bit better, still doesn't fix the problem of perma stealth though.And no, Anti-Stealth Traps are not a substitude for not having a skill that reveals. They cost supplies, badges and coins, take time to set up and don't really help anyway. Besides, in my opinion these traps should be reworked to not just remove stealth and reveal, but to also mark enemy players on the map, like sentries and towers do.

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@ProverbsofHell.2307 said:Sacrificing a utility JUST for thieves is insane imo.

Or you can swap a utility or two specifically to clear out a keep or tower. You know, because you can leave the tower and the DE can’t without losing opportunity to take the tower. Swap back when you finish.

For that matter, bring a couple of revive traits/utilities and power resurrect the lord while one or two other stand guard. Set up healing around lord along with stealth to prevent the DE from targeting the lord. Or set up a reflect rotation around the lord with additional traps.

Basically, you need only one or two other players to help lock down the lord. Area control abilities and support will prevent most issues as long as you play it smart. Your entire Zerg is a bad idea. Players get careless and those left behind are easily ganked. A coordinated team of Druid/Ranger, DH/FB and Scrapper should be more than enough to handle a few DE.

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@oOStaticOo.9467 said:I still say that Thieves should have 2 modes. Stealth/Mobility mode where they can run around without being seen and scout but not attack. Attack mode where they can attack and have some mobility but no Stealth.

Are you suggesting not being able to attack at all when in stealth/mobility mode or just not being able to hit as hard or be as aggressive? Either way that's not a good idea regardless but I just wanted to know what you mean by that because that sounds like such a sweeping change you're suggesting, with no alternative class mechanic, or you're actually piling on advantages towards the thief since they'd of course have another unique combat mechanic to take the place of stealth. An easier answer to stealth abuse would be to walk back some changes like dodge to stealth until it's manageable again.

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Here's one. I won;t speak to the player against player aspect, but there does need to be a bigger incentive to nursing those objectives so that they have more/better guards. All too often guards are just a defacto source of world points and bags. Shouldn't be that way.

One possibility is to give keep and tower guards a pulsing reveal. When a wall or a door or a guard anywhere near a tower or keep is engaged -i.e. once the objective goes crossed swords- guards should be shifted to Alert mode. This would widen their detection radius by fifty or more percent and any character in stealth who wanders too near to them will be immediately revealed. There needs to be a higher ceiling of difficulty for this sort of play, particularly for Mesmers hoping to hang out behind the walls to give their side a free shot at taking an objective via portals.

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@oOStaticOo.9467 said:I still say that Thieves should have 2 modes. Stealth/Mobility mode where they can run around without being seen and scout but not attack. Attack mode where they can attack and have some mobility but no Stealth.

No. Stealth is a major part of thiefs defenses, along with their mobility. Remove it, and you'll have to compensate them. Which you probably wont like.

The stealth protects them by giving them a needed buff to damage resistance to protect them from AoE spam, and to break targeting of moves that will kill them. Also remember that a thief that is perma stealth has several major vulnerabilities. Condi, cc, and limited escape options.

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If you need to pick a utility to compete then you need to pick it.

A dead player does no damage. If you need something to compete you should take it.

Unless countering thief isn’t necessary to your success rate. In that case feel free to drop the anti-stealth traits and utilities. But don’t complain.

You picked versatility over specialization when you didn’t think it was important enough to build for.

It’s like being on a melee only build and complaining that a Ranger kited you to death.

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@Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497 said:

@oOStaticOo.9467 said:I still say that Thieves should have 2 modes. Stealth/Mobility mode where they can run around without being seen and scout but not attack. Attack mode where they can attack and have some mobility but no Stealth.

No. Stealth is a major part of thiefs defenses, along with their mobility. Remove it, and you'll have to compensate them. Which you probably wont like.

The stealth protects them by giving them a needed buff to damage resistance to protect them from AoE spam, and to break targeting of moves that will kill them. Also remember that a thief that is perma stealth has several major vulnerabilities. Condi, cc, and limited escape options.

Thieves still have Evades and Dodges. Not to mention if you use the right food you basically get an extra dodge out of it. Top that with Mobility and Thieves have plenty of defense outside of Stealth. Stealth should be used for scouting not attacking. Stealth is a stupid gimmick that is heavily abused.

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They could fix this issue in a heartbeat by making stealth no longer stack duration. Now when it gets used a quick decision to either run and hide or fight has to be made. None of this standing right next to people in a keep for minutes before making their move, or moving across entire maps in stealth. Burst Houdini needs to trip and fall on a nerf bat.

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@Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497 said:The stealth protects them by giving them a needed buff to damage resistance to protect them from AoE spam, and to break targeting of moves that will kill them. Also remember that a thief that is perma stealth has several major vulnerabilities. Condi, cc, and limited escape options.

If they are perma stealth then they do not have those vulnerabilities. Condi is cleared very easily by SE, Shadowstep and Blinding Powder can get them out of CC, and stealth is the ideal escape option.

@"oOStaticOo.9467" said:Thieves still have Evades and Dodges. Not to mention if you use the right food you basically get an extra dodge out of it. Top that with Mobility and Thieves have plenty of defense outside of Stealth. Stealth should be used for scouting not attacking. Stealth is a stupid gimmick that is heavily abused.

DE has no more dodges than any other profession. Weapon sets that incorporate evades don't work with DE against competent opponents, especially without the added instant shadowstep from Steal. The only viable defense DE has outside of stealth is Rifle 4, and that's only against opponents with no ranged pressure and limited gap closers so...Warriors/Necromancers only?

How do you think a DE would fare in a melee-only, toe-to-toe, no-stealth battle against an Engi, Warrior, Guard, Rev, Necro, or Ranger (And even eles both FA and S/D brawlers)? It would lose every time in its current state. I get salt whispers all the time from the melee-professions after they get kited/outplayed - saying I am "abusing range" on my non-SA DE. These same people complaining wouldn't think twice about how laughably underpowered DE is without range or stealth....

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@Adamarc.7463 said:

@ProverbsofHell.2307 said:Sacrificing a utility JUST for thieves is insane imo.

Most DE builds are so dependent on Stealth, even just for a few seconds, that they are
required
to use Shadow Meld as their elite in case of Reveal.

Just shows how badly they are designed for WvW.

A bad design because a DE is pigeon holed into an elite skill or for some other reason? Any suggestions for a replacement?

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@RangerThings.9810 said:

@Sunapollo.9152 said:How about making a “invisible dimension” such that if you are also invisible then you can see the other invisible players in the same dimension?

In DAoC, the original WvW, stealth classes could spec to see other stealth classes. Higher spec, further vision. This would be a great thief mechanic imho.

No, that would be a great mechanic for everyone else. It makes no sense to give the counter for a class to that same class.

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I think it's a wider issue than just DE but I do agree that sub-class is really, really poorly thought out.

Many of the strongest builds in small scale WvW are designed to be fun to play but (IMO) seemingly had very little thought put in as to what it is like to play against.

I main Mirage and play at an ok skill-level and I can honestly say that class is broken. But then I see a warrior in invun waiting to die from old age or a ranger ping 5k hits from "1500" away or engi's aoe or scourge/fb tanking 10 people. I'm sure everyone here could list a few more.

It feels frustrating to attempt to be competitive (accounting for rng sandbox) when these classes are seemingly designed without this in mind.

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