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Thieves ruin WvW


Gondolph.7201

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@coro.3176 said:

@"Sviel.7493" said:Rather than adding a new usurping mechanic, why not just give stealth traps a reveal that is unique from player reveals?

Which is...technically a new usurping mechanic, but w/e q_q

Yes! We can call it super-reveal. And then deadeye can get a new elite skill that counters super-reveal and applies super-stealth. Then we can get a new trap that removes super-stealth and applies super-mega-reveal. And then deadeye can get a new trait that counters super-mega-reveal and applies ULTIMATE STEALTH, which removes them from sight and prevents them from interacting with other players until anet figures out how to make stealth counterplay work.

:)

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@Turk.5460 said:

@Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497 said:The stealth protects them by giving them a needed buff to damage resistance to protect them from AoE spam, and to break targeting of moves that will kill them. Also remember that a thief that is perma stealth has several major vulnerabilities. Condi, cc, and limited escape options.

If they are perma stealth then they do
not
have those vulnerabilities. Condi is cleared very easily by SE, Shadowstep and Blinding Powder can get them out of CC, and stealth is
the ideal escape option
.

@"oOStaticOo.9467" said:Thieves still have Evades and Dodges. Not to mention if you use the right food you basically get an extra dodge out of it. Top that with Mobility and Thieves have plenty of defense outside of Stealth. Stealth should be used for scouting not attacking. Stealth is a stupid gimmick that is heavily abused.

DE has no more dodges than any other profession. Weapon sets that incorporate evades don't work with DE against competent opponents, especially without the added instant shadowstep from Steal. The only viable defense DE has outside of stealth is Rifle 4, and that's only against opponents with no ranged pressure and limited gap closers so...Warriors/Necromancers only?

How do you think a DE would fare in a melee-only, toe-to-toe, no-stealth battle against an Engi, Warrior, Guard, Rev, Necro, or Ranger (And even eles both FA and S/D brawlers)? It would lose
every
time in its current state. I get salt whispers all the time from the melee-professions after they get kited/outplayed - saying I am "abusing range" on my non-SA DE. These same people complaining wouldn't think twice about how laughably underpowered DE is without range or stealth....

They get cleanse from cloak, but the priority of it is not good and it cleanses one every second. If the DE relies on that, he will be realing unless hes packed healing power... Which not a lot of people do. As far as I know, Im the only one who grabs it.

There is Sword which can do some damage on defensive playing. A Deadeye can hold their own in melee. But if if it drags on to long then yeah. Even then, without acrobatics to augment sword and their endurance regrn, they wont lasy long if pressured.

Anyways, you can tell people to dive, pull, or cc them all day. They won't leave their meta builds any time soon.

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Thanks guys for the lot of comments. It shows that many see the same problem. I like the simple idea to make the "stealth disruption trap" better, since currently it has just no use anymore. And we will try probably the idea with the fighter shout "on my mark". However The DE`s stealth still feels to me overpowered INSIDE of castles.

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@"Gondolph.7201" said:Thanks guys for the lot of comments. It shows that many see the same problem. I like the simple idea to make the "stealth disruption trap" better, since currently it has just no use anymore. And we will try probably the idea with the fighter shout "on my mark". However The DE`s stealth still feels to me overpowered INSIDE of castles.thank you for the warning, we will be prepared!

inside your keep that shout wont do much, because the deadeyes will be defensive so they will just wait in stealth for an elite charge if you have people that can kill the deadeye during the reveal. its better if you lets say want to take a camp and a deadeye is defending it. IMO rangers are the best to fight deadeyes in a keep. but no matter what you bring, you have to suprise or bait the deadeye. if you really want to force them out and have enough people then build groups of scrappers+rangers/mesmer/thieves and spread out spamming reveals. the scrappers allways need some 'killer' with them as they themselves can only reveal not kill the deadeye in that time. if you cannot cover enough area however, then your just wasting time trying to force it because the deadeye will see the single scrapper coming and can stay out of its range.

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@Gondolph.7201 said:my suggestion on this.Thieves should loose %s of hiding time inside wvw buildings over time. After , say, 20 minutes their hiding time should continuously decrease. Just to give them some balance.

just make it impossible to hide in towers/keeps aslong the timer is still on npc.simple solution and so effective.

every1 will leave the keep/tower at that point no point sticking around when every1 can see you.

you people always wanna touch the classes it self while solution isnt touching the class.yes DE stealth is insane and retarded(yes i play thief my self) but like mentioned before DE without stealth is a handicapted ranger.anyway as i said just put perma reveal buff up on just taken keeps/towers like the dots show up on map, so thief/mesmer cant stealth and u can just go to the dots.

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@kash.9213 said:

@Player.9621 said:they need to remove the ability for them to stealth from anyone they have damagedthat way they can still stealth from everyone else but the person they tried to gank will be able to retalliate

Then what will you replace the Shadow Arts trait line with?

There is a thread with my name with the idea of stealth from shadow magic (thieves, rangers, blasting smoke) only works with enemies that are up to 450 units (distance used as an example could be less) . Enemies closer than that can see the thief although is not revealed.

That would balance the stealth for thief once for all. And also it might open a door for the thief to be desired in squads, as the mesmer could not use stealth for the pushes anymore.

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"We LearnFromFailureNor From Success"

"If You DoNothing ThereWill Be NoResults"

Thief is designed to not learn from failure. They also are designed to not make mistakes from time to time and to avoid making mistakes at all. What make matter worse is how Anet continual response to thief toxicity to the game

They Tolerate It

They Support It

They Do Nothing

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I dont mean to be that guy.But thieves are high risk & high reward.Except for riflecamping deadeye.

And riflecamping deadeye is easy enough to run away from. Just dont bother fighting them.Its a cheesebuild which forces you to dodge/pop utilities/passives and just "slowly" withers you down.I say slowly because rifle animations are not that fast, especially from range, so you have plenty of time reacting to it.

The damage is completely fine, but having permanent stealth is not.Permastealth is so easily achieved and turns so many situations to :

  1. You try to kill the little pest, which eitherA ) Ran away to fight another day, probably in permstealth so u cant tell.B ) Bores / annoys you to death by popping in and out of stealth after a bunch of failed "assassination" attempts until he kills you since u lost interest long ago to play hide and seek.

  2. You get nuked or just dont wanna fightA ) And the little turd chases after you in stealth, so you have to worry about wheter you are safe or not, and probably jumps u 20min later when ur afk / tabbed out or something or engaged in another fight.B ) Pop some mobility actives and give the littleman your ugly finger.

Id suggest you stick to alternative "2 B" until they fix stealth on dodge. Killing people with boredom/annoyance shouldnt be a thing really. The damage is ok though, wouldnt change that.

Oh and a note, Malicious Backstab shouldnt get touched neither. If Anet takes a dump on rifledodge there is no need.Also if the thief goes into melee with that kind of a glassy build, sneezing on him/her is enough to have him/her running back from camp.

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@Noha.3749 said:But thieves are high risk & high reward.

Nah, thief is low risk.

I remember a bit of some video that Sinderer guy put out that illustrated why, showed some thief trying to gank him, the thief failed, the thief then proceeded to shadowstep / bow 5 off into the distance, but he got caught because Sinderer plays thief so was able to catch him, but if he was on any other class, then that thief would have got away, so unpunished for playing bad / getting outplayed, it totally breaks fundamental game concepts like risk vs reward, which is of course why thief has been so popular for the entire game roaming, it is ezmode in something like WvW.

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well thief was always a godmode class when you could play it (unfun but rarely seen), the problem with deadeye however is that it is absolutely braindead. Most DE players suck and all they do is shoot you from 1000+ range and go invis as soon as you come close. The problem here is not one DE but several. If one goes invis and another starts shooting you from 1000+ range again you cannot do anything about it (maybe run into a keep again if you are close to one). Roaming groups of DEs are litteraly the worst thing i have ever encountered in this game. Even entire zergs can't harm them because they are always invis and kill everyone in seconds who gets a little bit to far away from the firebrand support. Small groups get obliterated and glassy builds simply get oneshot from stealth. There is nothing you can do about it and it simply sucks.

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@anduriell.6280 said:

@Player.9621 said:they need to remove the ability for them to stealth from anyone they have damagedthat way they can still stealth from everyone else but the person they tried to gank will be able to retalliate

Then what will you replace the Shadow Arts trait line with?

There is a thread with my name with the idea of stealth from shadow magic (thieves, rangers, blasting smoke) only works with enemies that are up to 450 units (distance used as an example could be less) . Enemies closer than that can see the thief although is not revealed.

That would balance the stealth for thief once for all. And also it might open a door for the thief to be desired in squads, as the mesmer could not use stealth for the pushes anymore.

That actually doesn't sound bad as long as Shadow Arts was retooled to be sustainable in combat.

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@Sylosi.6503 said:

@"Noha.3749" said:But thieves are high risk & high reward.

Nah, thief is low risk.

I remember a bit of some video that Sinderer guy put out that illustrated why, showed some thief trying to gank him, the thief failed, the thief then proceeded to shadowstep / bow 5 off into the distance, but he got caught because Sinderer plays thief so was able to catch him, but if he was on any other class that thief would have got away, so unpunished for playing bad / getting outplayed, it totally breaks fundamental game concepts like risk vs reward, which is of course why thief has been so popular for the entire game roaming, it is ezmode in something like WvW.

+1

(posted 2012-10-16)https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/What-is-not-overpowered-about-a-thief

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i fail to se how a post from 2012 is gonna prova a point.

Unless you play Daredevil you still got 2 dodges just like anyone, same health as an elementalist (lowest ingame) and almost only ACTIVE defensive abilities.

Alot of professions right now gets carried by a bunch of passive lifesavers in their builds. Allowing for way more mistakes and missplays to be had.

Ofcourse a player that´s used to be able to missplay and come out alive will get completely dumped on when playing a thief, and probably get dumped on by thief players. Most likely because adapting to a reactive playstyle instead of a proactive playstyle.

Keep in mind, i am by no means deffending riflethief.Just the (relatively)viable and (relatively)fair other thiefbuilds out there.

A Proactive player will most of the times beat a Reactive player.The thief class needs you to play a Proactive playstyle due to few/none passive lifesavers.Alot of other classes does fine playing a reactive playstyle.

Thieves Defense is based on being proactive, making use of positioning and timing. Thieves kits relies on you adapting to the playstyle. You dont have a bunch of invulns, blocks, aegis, resistances etc. You got evades and mobility.

It is harder to time a dodge than channeling a block for 2 seconds.Moving away from the damage has its upsides just as tunneling through it with buildt in defense. Both has its uses in different situations.

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I read the thread, I see all the upvotes, I cry inside.

Hiding in enemy keeps and towers as thieves and mesmers used to be a well praised tactic a few years ago, not only that but using a whole zerg for them would have been considored laughable for how well they distracted the zerg from thier goals.... how times have changed.

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@sephiroth.4217 said:I read the thread, I see all the upvotes, I cry inside.

Hiding in enemy keeps and towers as thieves and mesmers used to be a well praised tactic a few years ago, not only that but using a whole zerg for them would have been considored laughable for how well they distracted the zerg from thier goals.... how times have changed.

IT still is, the current issue is how stealth traps are useless if a thief triggers them, plus game sync isnt the best on stealth some players will barelly see the thief comming out of stealth while the sync on going on stealth is more accurate, so that gives like 1-2 sec max to actually try to kill it, after he triggers the stealth trap.

Maybe stealth trap needs a stronger effect.

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@Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497 said:

No. Stealth is a major part of thiefs defenses, along with their mobility. Remove it, and you'll have to compensate them. Which you probably wont like.

The stealth protects them by giving them a needed buff to damage resistance to protect them from AoE spam, and to break targeting of moves that will kill them. Also remember that a thief that is perma stealth has several major vulnerabilities. Condi, cc, and limited escape options.

Then why my core power necro does not have stealths, mobility, evades, block etc? Core power necro needs them too. ((Any top necro player could 1v1 with core power necro vs deadeye?))

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@Pelto.9364 said:

No. Stealth is a major part of thiefs defenses, along with their mobility. Remove it, and you'll have to compensate them. Which you probably wont like.

The stealth protects them by giving them a needed buff to damage resistance to protect them from AoE spam, and to break targeting of moves that will kill them. Also remember that a thief that is perma stealth has several major vulnerabilities. Condi, cc, and limited escape options.

Then why my core power necro does not have stealths, mobility, evades, block etc? Core power necro needs them too. ((Any top necro player could 1v1 with core power necro vs deadeye?))

because necro has other means of protecting themselves and staying alive.

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@kash.9213 said:

@ProverbsofHell.2307 said:Sacrificing a utility JUST for thieves is insane imo.

Most DE builds are so dependent on Stealth, even just for a few seconds, that they are
required
to use Shadow Meld as their elite in case of Reveal.

Just shows how badly they are designed for WvW.

A bad design because a DE is pigeon holed into an elite skill or for some other reason? Any suggestions for a replacement?

Cough

Anything based on sustained stealth and/or capable of sustained stealth and safe burst damage is literally impossible to balance and make fun to play as/against based on how the combat in this game works.

The idea of more stealth on the thief, especially as a ranged burst damage dealer, never should have made it past the early stages of the drawing board.

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@babazhook.6805 said:

@"Blocki.4931" said:Tell your warriors to run "On my Mark" it has multiple charges and if they Shadow Meld to remove the reveal you can simply use it again until they run out. Most of these issues could be prevented if people were a bit smarter about what they are doing. Thieves that hide can often make use of things like line of sight, a concept 5 levels above what the average WvW player could ever grasp

Yep. A Couple of warriors running On My Mark , used in conjunction with a tight knit group (ie rotating the use of the skill and having ranged users ready to fire on reveal or people with ports to port to target) will see most DE's die or flee.

A lot of this gets back to people not wanting to trait Utilities that do not just add more to damage. When the very first reveals released there were all manner of complaints about stealth. There are always complaints about stealth and this BEFORE smeld yet man did not trait those reveals. The excuse used then was "There are better skills to use then reveal as the reveals take away from my damage".

Funny how they were not complaining about stealth back when there was very little reward but all the same risk. Demanding a class gets nerfed just damages the game even more to the point people stop playing when their favorite classes become unplayable.

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Tbh I play some deadeye thief. Backstab 1 shot build. Its fun. Die a lot more than people here may think by picking targets that look juicy only for them to hit some sick i-frame skills, get some distance, turn around and clap back. I do think it's a bit strong. Not the stealth itself. I have no problem with permanent stealth outside of objectives. The burst damage immediately out of stealth is probably a bit much though. I crit some guy last night for 16k+1.5k from sigil of air and if he lived that I probably had a 4-6k heartseeker behind it. Not very fun on his end I'm sure. I'm not sure on the solution to the damage out of stealth. I think permanent stealth can stay outside of keeps and be okay if the burst out of it goes away, but I'd recommend adding a tactic option to unstealth people and apply a debuff that prevents stealth for x amount of time. Something juicy like 5 minutes would even be fine. Then again this is giving up something just to counter 2 classes.

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