No downed WvW... Permanently - Page 2 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

No downed WvW... Permanently

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  • Yes! Why is this not a thing already?

    The downed state only helps the larger groups that already have an advantage. Why is it in WvW? If I'm doing a 1v3 and I down one of them, he just gets rezzed by the other two and gets up with decent health and now I lose.

    Remove the downed state. You should not punish the smaller groups.

  • @EvilSardine.9635 said:
    The downed state only helps the larger groups that already have an advantage. Why is it in WvW? If I'm doing a 1v3 and I down one of them, he just gets rezzed by the other two and gets up with decent health and now I lose.

    Remove the downed state. You should not punish the smaller groups.

    No, it doesn't. It's not as simple as that. Removing downed state would also imbalance the mode in favour of some classes/builds over others. Soulbeasts with decent reaction times would probably instakill Deadeyes, Mirages and Eles. And it'd be the other way round too. I don't know what class you play but if you lack cleave and can't stealth/stab-stomp, you're not going to secure that kill. The problem isn't downed state as most downed state abilities are useless anyway, barring some like Vapor Form and Lick Wounds. The problem is partially because of rez traits and rez utilities, which are themselves slightly skewed, and I'd wager that the problem isn't so much downed state as it is these skills or perhaps the people one runs with generally.

    Take, for instance, large-scale fights. Most groups will have bunker chronos who run Illusion of Life and perhaps scourges who traited Transfusion, though I think most people don't trait into Blood Magic anymore. Both are quite a bit better than the other options available to you. With Transfusion, Death Shroud 4 will instantly teleport characters to you while you're channelling and is 1200 range. Illusion of Life has a greater range, significantly shorter cast-time and lower cooldown than other similar utility skills:

    • Illusion of Life has a 1¼ second cast-time (shorter still since they're likely to have quickness), 1200 range, 240 radius and the lowest cooldown time of any of the rez utilities at 75 seconds untraited (or 60 seconds, if traited for Master of Manipulations, which most chronos will be)
    • Glyph of Renewal has the longest cast-time at 3¼ seconds, 900 range, 180 radius (except for Renewal of Earth which has a 360 radius) and a cooldown of 90 seconds untraited, 72 seconds when traited for Inscription
    • Signet of Undeath has a 3 second cast-time, 900 range and 180 radius; there's no flat cooldown reduction for traiting for Signets of Suffering but a conditional 4% reduction every second you're in shroud

      Either they normalise the skills across the board or lower their impact. Realistically, nobody runs Glyph of Renewal because the cast-time is too long. Same for Signet of Undeath which is outclassed by Transfusion. The main offender is really Illusion of Life which is a get-out-of-jail-free card and I think the cast time should be increased to at least 2 seconds. For small-scale, yes, it's annoying but oftentimes it's a case of who pays attention to their surroundings and minimap and reacts more quickly to either rez their teammates or cleave the downed/s.

  • sephiroth.4217sephiroth.4217 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @coro.3176 said:
    No.

    Scrapper's ENTIRE kitten CLASS MECHANIC is reviving and stomping. That is already useless in PvE, and situational in PvP/WvW. If down state was removed, it would have to be reworked.

    I like my unicorn finisher too

    Not to brag, but I put together a puzzle in 4 days and the box said 2-4 years.
    Please allow team queue with rewards again at our own discretion

  • daydreamer.3092daydreamer.3092 Member ✭✭
    edited September 30, 2018

    without downstate it would be a more casual and less fun game. Today we cant only build for burst and retreat when 1vx. Instead you have to use traits, skills and player skill to control the combat. Without downstate there would be less build diversity and more boredom.

  • Yes! Why is this not a thing already?

    Perhaps I'm in the minority here, but I found WvW far more enjoyable during the no downstate event. Sure, a lot of people were running glass cannon insta-gib builds, but that's also a fairly common thing without the event. The main appeal of no downstate is that it makes 1vX and outnumbered fighting a lot more manageable, and I suspect this is the exact reason that so many people oppose it. GW2 is by and large a casual MMORPG, and most people haven't dedicated thousands of hours into a single class. For those people, no downstate means that they're going to be spending a lot more time running back to their groups. Since so many traits/skills are tied to the mechanic of downstate, its unlikely that Anet would ever consider it beyond a limited event. I think a more reasonable request of Anet would be (as mentioned already) tweaking the downstate mechanic in WvW so that its less punishing to those of us who get our jolly's by taking on larger groups.

  • Ardid.7203Ardid.7203 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Other so much better idea (please explain)

    Downstate is part of the game, as it is the Scrapper.
    Love it of hate it, the point is you don't fix things just by mutilating them. Just taking downstate away will not fix WvW. There has to be a better option.

  • Kirnale.5914Kirnale.5914 Member ✭✭✭

    Terrible idea.

    1.) Population cut down in WvW. We are short on people as it is, we don't need another reason to lose player base in WvW.
    2.) One shots in all forms. Be it zerg, or roaming. As long as they exist, it will make this an unpleasant experience. I remember getting one shot by a single player while I was in the middle of my zerg lol. Worst is, they can easily get away doing so. This promotes going even more tanky setup and some classes, like the ele, will be kicked out completely.
    3.) Hardcore commander focus. Never seen that many before. Another unfun experience, and no downstate promotes it well. Usually coms can be safed with merciful, but that skill becomes useless.
    4.) Lot's of skills become useless, and require Anet's overhaul. This takes time from more important things such as alliance.

    Skill is one thing (argueable), but it's just unfun and promote toxic gameplay. If you want to prove your skills that much, just duel some top tier players. Pretty sure some of them are willing to, no need to cut down zerglings that have no interest in dueling anyways. As for zerging skills, it doesn't make a difference, as the worst zerg always loses against the better one. And a good guild can still take on a zerg with much higher numbers but worse skill.

    It is potentially a thing, but not in the current state.

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 1, 2018
    Other so much better idea (please explain)

    downed state is an integral part of the game. you want nerfs? fine nerf it.
    no downed state should only be a once a week thing. maybe on the weekends.

    The horror...…….the horror...…….the horror...…….

  • No please, me likey to be ressed continuously by me bloba of 60

    No daownstate good for fun!

    But remover forever? NO...big of N O!!
    all everything will go oneshot build and troll forever.
    All another status gear is useless because everything forcus spec on kill or get kill.
    We need another idea for WvW week.

  • Zhaid Zhem.6508Zhaid Zhem.6508 Member ✭✭✭
    No please, me likey to be ressed continuously by me bloba of 60

    Dude if there were no more downstate I would just play retaliation meditation guard in Valkyrie/Knight and do Blitzkrieg 1vs20 easy.

  • Turk.5460Turk.5460 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Yes! Why is this not a thing already?

    @Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:
    Dude if there were no more downstate I would just play retaliation meditation guard in Valkyrie/Knight and do Blitzkrieg 1vs20 easy.

    Aha, I made that build for the first time this past weekend, you ain't joking that kitty is easy as cat to play. Though Guardian has always really had the most easy-to-learn hand-holding builds x3

    Fort Aspenwood
    Jekkies

  • Kylden Ar.3724Kylden Ar.3724 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Other so much better idea (please explain)

    Downstate needs to stay.

    What needs to happen in WvW though is that when you die, you can't respawn on that map, you have to go to a different one (for at least, like, 5 minutes). Home BL would be the exception (home spawn always available).

    Break up the EBG focus and force people to the other maps more, and also force map rotation and end the stupid constantly running back to keep hitting the same keep for 2 hours till it's run out of supply or give a care.

    Do not fear simplification of the game, there is elegance in simplicity that allows more time for playing and less time building.

  • this poll is biased as heck, apparently in OP's little world the only reason one would want the core game mechanics to not be removed permanently out of single game mode is "me likey to be ressed continuously by me bloba of 60"......

    yeah sure.

  • Yes! Why is this not a thing already?

    It is a good mecanic in pve and SPvP but it must be removed in WvW

  • anduriell.6280anduriell.6280 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 7, 2018
    Yes! Why is this not a thing already?

    Another weekend against blob servers another weekend where this mechanic carry blobs so hard your group can't do anything.... Not defend, not fight not anything. Just quit.

  • Israel.7056Israel.7056 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Yes! Why is this not a thing already?

    @Baldrick.8967 said:

    @Israel.7056 said:

    @Chaba.5410 said:

    @Israel.7056 said:

    @Justine.6351 said:
    Please don't make these kinds of polls. They are just going to be skewed. Beyond the fact that one shot is a rampant thing and wvw is dependent on incomming new players to stay afloat.

    Way more trash than treasure on this forum no downed isn't ever going to win a straw poll here be serious.

    Polls are trash.

    Depends on how they're structured this one seems pretty simple to me.

    The poll is clearly biased towards no down state.

    There is no vote option of 'leave it as it is, it's fine', rather the leave it option spouts on about being ressed by a zone blob.

    Removing down state would be fine if you remove one shot builds, completely rework or remove stealth, restrict max damage from skills and reduce condi bombs and rework boons and boon strips. As that's not going to happen, removing downed state will just encourage yet more cheese builds and do nothing for the game mode except make even more gank squads.

    All the people claiming to be consistently dying to so called "one shot" builds are bad players imo they're going to get rolled no matter what until they l2p.

    I spent probably 6 hrs a day fighting non stop during no downed state week with 150+ ping on eu servers and I got 100-0d maybe 6 or 7 times total on a rev and it was always my fault.

    Most of the people left playing this game are so bad that they can't deal with simple mmo things like burst or stealth and no downed state just filters them out faster because they can't get carried by resses when they fail a dodge or don't los properly or waste defensives etc.

    If you're worried about not being able to compete without downed state that is a reflection on your own skill level not a problem with the game itself.

  • zinkz.7045zinkz.7045 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 7, 2018

    @Israel.7056 said:

    @Baldrick.8967 said:

    @Israel.7056 said:

    @Chaba.5410 said:

    @Israel.7056 said:

    @Justine.6351 said:
    Please don't make these kinds of polls. They are just going to be skewed. Beyond the fact that one shot is a rampant thing and wvw is dependent on incomming new players to stay afloat.

    Way more trash than treasure on this forum no downed isn't ever going to win a straw poll here be serious.

    Polls are trash.

    Depends on how they're structured this one seems pretty simple to me.

    The poll is clearly biased towards no down state.

    There is no vote option of 'leave it as it is, it's fine', rather the leave it option spouts on about being ressed by a zone blob.

    Removing down state would be fine if you remove one shot builds, completely rework or remove stealth, restrict max damage from skills and reduce condi bombs and rework boons and boon strips. As that's not going to happen, removing downed state will just encourage yet more cheese builds and do nothing for the game mode except make even more gank squads.

    All the people claiming to be consistently dying to so called "one shot" builds are bad players imo they're going to get rolled no matter what until they l2p.

    I spent probably 6 hrs a day fighting non stop during no downed state week with 150+ ping on eu servers and I got 100-0d maybe 6 or 7 times total on a rev and it was always my fault.

    Most of the people left playing this game are so bad that they can't deal with simple mmo things like burst or stealth and no downed state just filters them out faster because they can't get carried by resses when they fail a dodge or don't los properly or waste defensives etc.

    If you're worried about not being able to compete without downed state that is a reflection on your own skill level not a problem with the game itself.

    Actually downstate is just like anything else, good players handle it better than bad ones, if you aren't up to handling it so want the game made even more simple, then well...

    Which was one of the things that differentiated the handful of properly good teams in PvP (TCG, Orange Logo, etc) and the rest, let alone the garbage that are most self proclaimed "good" WvW players and guilds.

  • Israel.7056Israel.7056 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Yes! Why is this not a thing already?

    @zinkz.7045 said:

    @Israel.7056 said:

    @Baldrick.8967 said:

    @Israel.7056 said:

    @Chaba.5410 said:

    @Israel.7056 said:

    @Justine.6351 said:
    Please don't make these kinds of polls. They are just going to be skewed. Beyond the fact that one shot is a rampant thing and wvw is dependent on incomming new players to stay afloat.

    Way more trash than treasure on this forum no downed isn't ever going to win a straw poll here be serious.

    Polls are trash.

    Depends on how they're structured this one seems pretty simple to me.

    The poll is clearly biased towards no down state.

    There is no vote option of 'leave it as it is, it's fine', rather the leave it option spouts on about being ressed by a zone blob.

    Removing down state would be fine if you remove one shot builds, completely rework or remove stealth, restrict max damage from skills and reduce condi bombs and rework boons and boon strips. As that's not going to happen, removing downed state will just encourage yet more cheese builds and do nothing for the game mode except make even more gank squads.

    All the people claiming to be consistently dying to so called "one shot" builds are bad players imo they're going to get rolled no matter what until they l2p.

    I spent probably 6 hrs a day fighting non stop during no downed state week with 150+ ping on eu servers and I got 100-0d maybe 6 or 7 times total on a rev and it was always my fault.

    Most of the people left playing this game are so bad that they can't deal with simple mmo things like burst or stealth and no downed state just filters them out faster because they can't get carried by resses when they fail a dodge or don't los properly or waste defensives etc.

    If you're worried about not being able to compete without downed state that is a reflection on your own skill level not a problem with the game itself.

    Actually downstate is just like anything else, good players handle it better than bad ones, if you aren't up to handling it so want the game made even more simple, then well...

    Which was one of the things that differentiated the handful of properly good teams in PvP (TCG, Orange Logo, etc) and the rest, let alone the garbage that are most self proclaimed "good" WvW players and guilds.

    I have been getting carried by downed state just like everyone else all this time but i know from playing without it now that I don't need it and that downed state just slows the game down and gives second chances to players who fail in every other way at the game. Its a crutch and it needs to go. All the crutches need to go.

    Everyone who wants to keep downed state knows they've been getting carried by it all this time and they're scared they won't be able to compete without it it's just that simple hence the endless whinging in these threads about stealth or spike damage or whatever else whenever this subject is brought up. They figure they would lose more often to builds they can't fight effectively even with downed state. It's the exact same objections every single time and they're always l2p objections.

  • Heartpains.7312Heartpains.7312 Member ✭✭✭

    Isreal, this have nothing to do with being carried or not, and my complains will be about it will promote certain classes/builds I said this before and I will say it again.
    1. Mesmers
    2. Thieves
    3. Engies
    4. Rangers.
    5. Warriors possible.
    there might be other builds/classes, but I am just saying lets not promote such thing "the kill and runaway"

    Oh and if you do that, you will end up with not having anyone to fight except those same classes and builds, I am sure you will get bored of that...
    I don't know about other people but this is my opinion.

    I will give you of example of something I did when I had someone else who is good and willing to change classes "specially since we are outnumbered". 2 condi mesmers "that's us" fighting spellbreaker and some other classes, we manage to kill the others but not spellbreaker due to the perma resistance back then with some builds, I just go out of combat and change traits so I can use the trait that makes shatters removes boons, and this is just one thing... there are a lot of these situations.

    Also played 2 deadeyes before the changes to the deadeye, I don't want to tell you what happens when there are people who are willing to change classes and are not lacking/learning the class xD

    I have fought group that had 5 holos or 6, you bring small group of their numbers that are random and see what happens ... even if you have a bit more if not certain classes or builds its just gg =)

    Maybe if the classes changed in the future it would be okay to remove the down state.

  • anduriell.6280anduriell.6280 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 7, 2018
    Yes! Why is this not a thing already?

    @Heartpains.7312 said:
    Isreal, this have nothing to do with being carried or not, and my complains will be about it will promote certain classes/builds I said this before and I will say it again.
    1. Mesmers
    2. Thieves
    3. Engies
    4. Rangers.
    5. Warriors possible.
    there might be other builds/classes, but I am just saying lets not promote such thing "the kill and runaway"

    Oh and if you do that, you will end up with not having anyone to fight except those same classes and builds, I am sure you will get bored of that...
    I don't know about other people but this is my opinion.

    I will give you of example of something I did when I had someone else who is good and willing to change classes "specially since we are outnumbered". 2 condi mesmers "that's us" fighting spellbreaker and some other classes, we manage to kill the others but not spellbreaker due to the perma resistance back then with some builds, I just go out of combat and change traits so I can use the trait that makes shatters removes boons, and this is just one thing... there are a lot of these situations.

    Also played 2 deadeyes before the changes to the deadeye, I don't want to tell you what happens when there are people who are willing to change classes and are not lacking/learning the class xD

    I have fought group that had 5 holos or 6, you bring small group of their numbers that are random and see what happens ... even if you have a bit more if not certain classes or builds its just gg =)

    Maybe if the classes changed in the future it would be okay to remove the down state.

    So all your opinions are be based towards the classes with minor representation will have more? So what's the problem there? Right now WvW is plagued by firebrands, revenants and necros, EU maps are filled with an 80% of that and some spellbreaker and a chrono or two.

    I don't see anything wrong there, better diversity is good. We even can begin to see some variety in the builds. Most of us (55%) see it that way.

    Once it begins to find the real reasons are or "i can't be carried by the F to ress" or "My scourge will not be mandatory to play". Seriously thou...

  • Israel.7056Israel.7056 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Yes! Why is this not a thing already?

    @zinkz.7045 said:

    @Israel.7056 said:

    @zinkz.7045 said:

    @Israel.7056 said:

    @Baldrick.8967 said:

    @Israel.7056 said:

    @Chaba.5410 said:

    @Israel.7056 said:

    @Justine.6351 said:
    Please don't make these kinds of polls. They are just going to be skewed. Beyond the fact that one shot is a rampant thing and wvw is dependent on incomming new players to stay afloat.

    Way more trash than treasure on this forum no downed isn't ever going to win a straw poll here be serious.

    Polls are trash.

    Depends on how they're structured this one seems pretty simple to me.

    The poll is clearly biased towards no down state.

    There is no vote option of 'leave it as it is, it's fine', rather the leave it option spouts on about being ressed by a zone blob.

    Removing down state would be fine if you remove one shot builds, completely rework or remove stealth, restrict max damage from skills and reduce condi bombs and rework boons and boon strips. As that's not going to happen, removing downed state will just encourage yet more cheese builds and do nothing for the game mode except make even more gank squads.

    All the people claiming to be consistently dying to so called "one shot" builds are bad players imo they're going to get rolled no matter what until they l2p.

    I spent probably 6 hrs a day fighting non stop during no downed state week with 150+ ping on eu servers and I got 100-0d maybe 6 or 7 times total on a rev and it was always my fault.

    Most of the people left playing this game are so bad that they can't deal with simple mmo things like burst or stealth and no downed state just filters them out faster because they can't get carried by resses when they fail a dodge or don't los properly or waste defensives etc.

    If you're worried about not being able to compete without downed state that is a reflection on your own skill level not a problem with the game itself.

    Actually downstate is just like anything else, good players handle it better than bad ones, if you aren't up to handling it so want the game made even more simple, then well...

    Which was one of the things that differentiated the handful of properly good teams in PvP (TCG, Orange Logo, etc) and the rest, let alone the garbage that are most self proclaimed "good" WvW players and guilds.

    I have been getting carried by downed state just like everyone else all this time but i know from playing without it now that I don't need it and that downed state just slows the game down and gives second chances to players who fail in every other way at the game. Its a crutch and it needs to go. All the crutches need to go.

    Everyone who wants to keep downed state knows they've been getting carried by it all this time and they're scared they won't be able to compete without it it's just that simple hence the endless whinging in these threads about stealth or spike damage or whatever else whenever this subject is brought up. They figure they would lose more often to builds they can't fight effectively even with downed state. It's the exact same objections every single time and they're always l2p objections.

    If you can't handle downstate that is a L2P issue, they don't need to dumb the game down just because you have issues.

    As for "crutches" please stop making me laugh, you are playing a game that literally aims for you, that has always been packed full of passives, where balance in WvW has always been laughably bad so cheese builds/comps carry hard and so on, if you genuinely cared about "crutches" you would not be playing this game, but you are, which speaks volumes.

    Downed state is a crutch for me just like it is for everyone else i just know I can win without it now so I don't need it anymore. The game was much much harder for me during no downed state week but it was good because it made me a better player. Going back to downed state made me realize how much easier it makes the game and how much it dumbs down combat for me. If you got farmed during no downed state week that's on you dude just play more and you will get better.

    Btw If there's a better rvr game out there let me know everything else ive tried has been terrible. eso was complete trash and bdo was a Korean grindfest. Maybe cu or cf will be better but until then this is the best rvr game I know of.

  • Israel.7056Israel.7056 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 7, 2018
    Yes! Why is this not a thing already?

    @Heartpains.7312 said:
    Isreal, this have nothing to do with being carried or not, and my complains will be about it will promote certain classes/builds I said this before and I will say it again.
    1. Mesmers
    2. Thieves
    3. Engies
    4. Rangers.
    5. Warriors possible.

    This is already the roaming meta and has been for quite some time.

    If you're dying to that stuff now then it'll be harder without downed state for you but that's a l2p issue you will get better over time.

    I don't think the zerg meta would change much either tbh.

  • Heartpains.7312Heartpains.7312 Member ✭✭✭

    If you mean the 5-6 holos, I am okay against them lol but coz my class is capable of fighting them, and coz when I got the right people they were dying "not gonna act like Rambo we were dying before the right people logged and the not right people left".

    Nothing seems to be changing for some time now. Zerg meta other meta didn't seem to change much.

    but then again I gave the 5-6 holos just for an example that I fought and saw others fighting them and if I saw them again, I will just avoid them coz "the right people" seems to be taking LONG break from this game ^^

  • Heartpains.7312Heartpains.7312 Member ✭✭✭

    anduriell, maybe in zergs these classes are not there, but other than that they are the ones that are there =p
    as for the firebrands, that thing makes me whine more than anything in this game trust me, for me it is worst than getting 1 backstabbed.

    And I will leave the zerg talk since I don't really go with zergs but I do know that scourges and firebrands are still a thing =p

    And from what you are saying it seems like you want to play those classes and make others who zergs quit? coz then you can make group and just hunt people who follows zerg or try to and just kill them, it is not right. Just try to get a group who are willing to change to some of these classes that are able to run and see for yourself, go to zergs or whatever and just aim for one person and down that target then run "I am saying down and run coz of what you want you can do that and actually kill that person and just run", these classes might have hard time to play in zergs if not impossible but they are not weak at all.

    Now imagine if these people got tired and quit, you think you will have anyone to fight?

  • anduriell.6280anduriell.6280 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 7, 2018
    Yes! Why is this not a thing already?

    @Heartpains.7312 said:

    Now imagine if these people got tired and quit, you think you will have anyone to fight?

    Actually in WVW i play both "types". Firebrand and scourge(mostly scourge thou) when I have a blob to join or ranger and a DE(mostly ranger thou) when i don't.

    I'll give you another point of view: the gamemode will gain more players because they are not forced anymore in one class.
    You want to play pewpew DE or Ranger? now you can with the zerg busting havock groups (real ones, not the gankers group we have now which 5 DE/mirage/holo gank one dude) .

    Zerg meta will stay the same, with classes with the most aoe access.
    But now you'll have smaller groups which are effective against bigger groups and that will bring another meta to the game.

    More diversity is always good in any situation, you being able to play with whatever you feel like and still be really useful is a no brainner.

    So No-Downed will be good in (in a rough assessment):

    • Players will cooperate more between them. As now you can't "F to ress" the fallen when you go for support you will have an active gameplay (right now is very passive) to avoid your team to get under 0. Support will be appreciated and seen.
    • The Zerg busting squads will come back. Because bigger zergs aren't hard carried anymore, smaller guilds will have the change to take down blobs if they are better and them. A lot of old WvW guilds will come back at least to try this.
    • Now you are free to play what you want (mostly..) all classes now they have an spot, as pewpew killers, zergbusting teamcomp , melee zerg, support group. Now everything can be useful.
    • GvG may have a short of a come back. Now small guild can play the game and be truly impactful , it is possible to have opposite servers guilds fights when they are defending, attacking or in the way of another objective.
    • As Israel pointed out the players will get better with better understanding of the game which it is always in betterment not only of the community but also of how the community see the company developing the game.
    • One shot builds will be toned down. Now Anet devs can't use the reasoning "but you can be ressed" if you get hit by 25K instagib. So eventually due Devs realisation and players complains those builds wll be toned down to a fast combos.

    You see, WvW is not PvE it needs other set of rules, it can't use the same. Because it promotes toxicity and annoyance when you can see other players are carried by those.

  • Baldrick.8967Baldrick.8967 Member ✭✭✭
    Other so much better idea (please explain)

    @Israel.7056 said:

    @Baldrick.8967 said:

    @Israel.7056 said:

    @Chaba.5410 said:

    @Israel.7056 said:

    @Justine.6351 said:
    Please don't make these kinds of polls. They are just going to be skewed. Beyond the fact that one shot is a rampant thing and wvw is dependent on incomming new players to stay afloat.

    Way more trash than treasure on this forum no downed isn't ever going to win a straw poll here be serious.

    Polls are trash.

    Depends on how they're structured this one seems pretty simple to me.

    The poll is clearly biased towards no down state.

    There is no vote option of 'leave it as it is, it's fine', rather the leave it option spouts on about being ressed by a zone blob.

    Removing down state would be fine if you remove one shot builds, completely rework or remove stealth, restrict max damage from skills and reduce condi bombs and rework boons and boon strips. As that's not going to happen, removing downed state will just encourage yet more cheese builds and do nothing for the game mode except make even more gank squads.

    All the people claiming to be consistently dying to so called "one shot" builds are bad players imo they're going to get rolled no matter what until they l2p.

    I spent probably 6 hrs a day fighting non stop during no downed state week with 150+ ping on eu servers and I got 100-0d maybe 6 or 7 times total on a rev and it was always my fault.

    Most of the people left playing this game are so bad that they can't deal with simple mmo things like burst or stealth and no downed state just filters them out faster because they can't get carried by resses when they fail a dodge or don't los properly or waste defensives etc.

    If you're worried about not being able to compete without downed state that is a reflection on your own skill level not a problem with the game itself.

    I can roll around on my warrior or guard or indeed rev all day and not worry about being one shotted. That's not the issue. Fail a dodge? Right. Because you can know EXACTLY when that attack is coming from stealth or other classes that don't have as many instant defences against the one shot builds (and which is why they travel in packs...).

    Nothing to do with skill. Some classes just handle the inst-gib mechanics much better than others.

    But sure, scrap downed state- and let me know which server you're fighting against, tag up and see how fast your dead as pin sniping reaches new levels.

    Personally I hardly ever get ressed from down state- mainly because I'm one of the last left standing in most fights which we're losing, so maybe scrap down state and bring in snipe wars and more focus groups.

    Wonder how the long range meta with instant build ballistas would suit. Just drag your blob into 3 of them, fire and half your numbers including most of core are downed, oh wait now they are all dead. Would you enjoy that meta? Distance would be key- as as soon as your invuln drops you're spiked.

  • Israel.7056Israel.7056 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 7, 2018
    Yes! Why is this not a thing already?

    @Baldrick.8967 said:
    I can roll around on my warrior or guard or indeed rev all day and not worry about being one shotted. That's not the issue. Fail a dodge? Right. Because you can know EXACTLY when that attack is coming from stealth or other classes that don't have as many instant defences against the one shot builds (and which is why they travel in packs...).

    Alright here's the thing: the whole point of stealth is the element of surprise. That's literally the entire point of stealth. Once you understand that you know that you have to keep your head on a swivel and be paranoid if you're roaming or running back to your group solo because you can always get opened on. I've made some common sense suggestions for stealth in other threads but in principle you're not supposed to see the hit coming so you have to anticipate it maneuver around the map carefully and react quickly if you get jumped.

    Rev doesn't really have much in the way of o kitten buttons except for glint heal and that's not gonna do much except give you a few extra seconds to contemplate how badly you kitten up if you eat an big opener from a thief or a mesmer because they're just going to stow and wait and then burst you again and now you don't have the big heal.

    I definitely got 100-0 solo a few times during no downed state week but quite frankly the fight would've been the same with downed state because I didn't see the hit coming and that's my fault.

    Nothing to do with skill. Some classes just handle the inst-gib mechanics much better than others.

    Yes and no. The auto procs dont require mechnical skill to help you survive a stealth opener this is true. But quite often the difference between getting jumped and not getting jumped is just being able to quickly identify audio cues or noticing some purple mesmer kitten out of the corner of one eye and that's all part of awareness. I consider awareness to be an aspect of game knowledge which in turn is a big part of what makes a good player imo.

    But sure, scrap downed state- and let me know which server you're fighting against, tag up and see how fast your dead as pin sniping reaches new levels.

    Perhaps. But what if downed state has been carrying pins and the way pins play this whole time? This is the only game I've ever played where it's not always a terrible idea to walk out in front of everyone else all the time. Perhaps the usual lead from the front approach would have to change if pins couldn't rely on illusion, mi and chain ressing whenever they overextended. Food for thought.

    Personally I hardly ever get ressed from down state- mainly because I'm one of the last left standing in most fights which we're losing, so maybe scrap down state and bring in snipe wars and more focus groups.

    I get ressed all the time because I go ham because I know I can.

    Wonder how the long range meta with instant build ballistas would suit. Just drag your blob into 3 of them, fire and half your numbers including most of core are downed, oh wait now they are all dead. Would you enjoy that meta? Distance would be key- as as soon as your invuln drops you're spiked.

    If I ever die to something that dumb then I deserve to die.

  • Chaba.5410Chaba.5410 Member ✭✭✭✭
    No please, me likey to be ressed continuously by me bloba of 60

    @Baldrick.8967 said:

    @Israel.7056 said:

    @Baldrick.8967 said:

    @Israel.7056 said:

    @Chaba.5410 said:

    @Israel.7056 said:

    @Justine.6351 said:
    Please don't make these kinds of polls. They are just going to be skewed. Beyond the fact that one shot is a rampant thing and wvw is dependent on incomming new players to stay afloat.

    Way more trash than treasure on this forum no downed isn't ever going to win a straw poll here be serious.

    Polls are trash.

    Depends on how they're structured this one seems pretty simple to me.

    The poll is clearly biased towards no down state.

    There is no vote option of 'leave it as it is, it's fine', rather the leave it option spouts on about being ressed by a zone blob.

    Removing down state would be fine if you remove one shot builds, completely rework or remove stealth, restrict max damage from skills and reduce condi bombs and rework boons and boon strips. As that's not going to happen, removing downed state will just encourage yet more cheese builds and do nothing for the game mode except make even more gank squads.

    All the people claiming to be consistently dying to so called "one shot" builds are bad players imo they're going to get rolled no matter what until they l2p.

    I spent probably 6 hrs a day fighting non stop during no downed state week with 150+ ping on eu servers and I got 100-0d maybe 6 or 7 times total on a rev and it was always my fault.

    Most of the people left playing this game are so bad that they can't deal with simple mmo things like burst or stealth and no downed state just filters them out faster because they can't get carried by resses when they fail a dodge or don't los properly or waste defensives etc.

    If you're worried about not being able to compete without downed state that is a reflection on your own skill level not a problem with the game itself.

    I can roll around on my warrior or guard or indeed rev all day and not worry about being one shotted. That's not the issue. Fail a dodge? Right. Because you can know EXACTLY when that attack is coming from stealth or other classes that don't have as many instant defences against the one shot builds (and which is why they travel in packs...).

    Nothing to do with skill. Some classes just handle the inst-gib mechanics much better than others.

    But sure, scrap downed state- and let me know which server you're fighting against, tag up and see how fast your dead as pin sniping reaches new levels.

    Personally I hardly ever get ressed from down state- mainly because I'm one of the last left standing in most fights which we're losing, so maybe scrap down state and bring in snipe wars and more focus groups.

    Wonder how the long range meta with instant build ballistas would suit. Just drag your blob into 3 of them, fire and half your numbers including most of core are downed, oh wait now they are all dead. Would you enjoy that meta? Distance would be key- as as soon as your invuln drops you're spiked.

    Can you guys perhaps edit down your responses and remove all the nested quoted text? Your response has nothing to do with what I wrote.

  • Sylosi.6503Sylosi.6503 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 7, 2018

    Downstate is fine, it was put in the game because this game does not have healers nor is it meant to be Counterstrike (especially given applying damage in this game is so easy in comparison).

    I found no DS made the game lower skilled and more brainless / shallow (this is apparently what some like) in that you didn't need to pick skills or classes for stomps/rezzes, that there were no plays like banish into mesmer blink stomp, less decision making and it also put less pressure on your cooldowns.

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sylosi.6503 said:
    because this game does not have healers

    (ignoring the fact support guard with healing power is meta as is dedicated zerg healbots)

  • Sylosi.6503Sylosi.6503 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 7, 2018

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @Sylosi.6503 said:
    because this game does not have healers

    (ignoring the fact support guard with healing power is meta as is dedicated zerg healbots)

    Not ignoring anything, this game does not have real healers, the "healbots" in this game heal like support classes.

  • Israel.7056Israel.7056 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 7, 2018
    Yes! Why is this not a thing already?

    @Sylosi.6503 said:
    I found no DS made the game lower skilled and more brainless (this is apparently what some like) in that you didn't need to pick skills or classes for stomps/rezzes, that there were no plays like banish into mesmer blink stomp and it also put less pressure on your cooldowns.

    I genuinely do not understand how anyone could have played no downed state week and walked away thinking it took less skill to win fights instead of more. I found the game to be much much much more difficult than usual because I could make far fewer mistakes than i normally can as i couldn't fall back on resses and rallies to carry me when a fight went sideways.

    I also think you're as wrong as wrong can be about cd pressure because when you go down your cds keep ticking so the proper way to play gw2 with downed state is to go ham and blow your cds every chance you get because it's very likely that you will kill someone and get a rally if you do go down and most if not all of your stuff will be off cd again and your support will heal you to full. The absolute wrong way to play this game normally is to hold your cds and risk going down without pressing all your buttons at least once.

    You're right that there would be no more fancy stomps though. A small price to pay imo.

  • Heartpains.7312Heartpains.7312 Member ✭✭✭

    Nvm the pin sniping, focus on "players sniping xD
    Sometimes it is just a matter of "we can do" so why not, some classes can down something and get away with it, and if they are group it can easily be done.

    As for bringing back players ... no it won't, and if it did, you think people will want to learn? I am sure people usually choose the easier thing to do which is not learning how to play "and sometimes it can be coz of classes", they will just quit, and then your "zerg busters" who came back will have no one to "bust" and they will quit too.

    Sorry if I am too focused on the quitting part but if that no down state happened expect that many people will leave and then you guys who wanted it will also leave coz you don't have anyone to fight.

  • Sylosi.6503Sylosi.6503 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 7, 2018

    @Israel.7056 said:

    @Sylosi.6503 said:
    I found no DS made the game lower skilled and more brainless (this is apparently what some like) in that you didn't need to pick skills or classes for stomps/rezzes, that there were no plays like banish into mesmer blink stomp and it also put less pressure on your cooldowns.

    I also think you're as wrong as wrong can be about cd pressure because when you go down your cds keep ticking so the proper way to play gw2 with downed state is to go ham and blow your cds every chance you get because it's very likely that you will kill someone and get a rally if you do go down and most if not all of your stuff will be off cd again and your support will heal you to full. The absolute wrong way to play this game normally is to hold your cds and risk going down without pressing all your buttons at least once.

    And I disagree, if 3 of us go roaming as a small group and we end up in say 3v5, then if we focus one guy I might pull him before he goes down to get distance from the other 4 so there is more time to stomp, then use elixir S to stomp him to avoid getting interrupted.

    So I've just blown two cooldowns, one of which is my major defensive cooldown to stomp the guy, if there was no downstate then I wouldn't need to use those cooldowns, nor have had to engaged my brain to bother pulling him to make the likelihood of the stomp more successful, nor would I have had to communicate with the other two members of my group on Discord to hold off a little a bit before I pulled him, because we didn't want the guy to go down where he was right next to the other 4 players for a better chance of them rezzing. Nor communicate to know when my fellow player had boonstrip ready so we could do that just before the pull just to make near certain, this is why you don't randomly smash your skills off cooldown.

    Downstate increases the skill cap by adding depth, teamwork and decision making to what in some ways is a relative shallow game and certainly a shallow game mode in WvW, it rewards better players. (or at the minimum better organised ones)

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @anduriell.6280 said:
    The no downed weekend made the game mode so much better . I could even see a shy comeback of the zerg busters guilds having fun while destroying full map blob of pugs.
    For me it was a fun weekend.

    And for you?

    Do you feel the below was fun? Because what you are asking for makes wvw 10x worse with all things considered... However, if your goal is to make long term retention for wvw worse than it is... by all means keep advocating for it...

    @anduriell.6280 said:
    Yep apparently this balance patch is becoming a meme...
    The damage is done against 2800 armor. Reveal didn't do anything as it stealthed back almost instantly and stayed like that for good >30 seconds .

    What do you think? is this the objective of this game?

  • Israel.7056Israel.7056 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 7, 2018
    Yes! Why is this not a thing already?

    @Sylosi.6503 said:

    @Israel.7056 said:

    @Sylosi.6503 said:
    I found no DS made the game lower skilled and more brainless (this is apparently what some like) in that you didn't need to pick skills or classes for stomps/rezzes, that there were no plays like banish into mesmer blink stomp and it also put less pressure on your cooldowns.

    I also think you're as wrong as wrong can be about cd pressure because when you go down your cds keep ticking so the proper way to play gw2 with downed state is to go ham and blow your cds every chance you get because it's very likely that you will kill someone and get a rally if you do go down and most if not all of your stuff will be off cd again and your support will heal you to full. The absolute wrong way to play this game normally is to hold your cds and risk going down without pressing all your buttons at least once.

    And I disagree, if 3 of us go roaming as a small group and we end up in say 3v5, then if we focus one guy I might pull him before he goes down to get distance from the other 4 so there is more time to stomp, then use elixir S to stomp him to avoid getting interrupted.

    So I've just blown two cooldowns, one of which is my major defensive cooldown to stomp the guy, if there was no downstate then I wouldn't need to use those cooldowns, nor have had to engaged my brain to bother pulling him to make the likelihood of the stomp more successful, nor would I have had to communicate with the other two members of my group on Discord to hold off a little a bit before I pulled him, because we didn't want the guy to go down where he was right next to the other 4 players for a better chance of them rezzing. Nor communicate to boonstrip the target pre-pull just to make near certain, this is why you don't randomly smash your skills off cooldown.

    Downstate increases the skill cap by adding depth, teamwork and decision making to what in some ways is a relative shallow game and certainly a shallow game mode in WvW, it rewards better players.

    Ah ok I see what you mean.

    I wasn't trying to suggest that under normal playing conditions players should "randomly" use skills simply that if they see an opportunity to use something that can lead to an enemy kill that they should precisely because it can lead to a kill and a kill can lead to a rally and any time you spend downed is time you actually get back on your cds and you can rally multiple times in a fight without going full dead so the opportunity cost for using cds is actually fairly low particularly on 10-15s cds as long as they are used to generate kills.

    You see what I'm saying?

    One of the most common mistakes I found myself making during no downed state week was overspending cds precisely because I'm so used to being able to make the cd time back in downed state. Like I didn't even realize I was doing it at first but after six years of gw2 i instinctively know to play for the rally and it got me killed a lot during no downed state week because I'm so used to being able to be so careless with cds.

  • Malediktus.9250Malediktus.9250 Member ✭✭✭✭
    No please, me likey to be ressed continuously by me bloba of 60

    not as long as it is possible to die in less than 3 seconds

  • Baldrick.8967Baldrick.8967 Member ✭✭✭
    Other so much better idea (please explain)

    @Israel.7056 said:

    @Sylosi.6503 said:

    @Israel.7056 said:

    @Sylosi.6503 said:
    I found no DS made the game lower skilled and more brainless (this is apparently what some like) in that you didn't need to pick skills or classes for stomps/rezzes, that there were no plays like banish into mesmer blink stomp and it also put less pressure on your cooldowns.

    I also think you're as wrong as wrong can be about cd pressure because when you go down your cds keep ticking so the proper way to play gw2 with downed state is to go ham and blow your cds every chance you get because it's very likely that you will kill someone and get a rally if you do go down and most if not all of your stuff will be off cd again and your support will heal you to full. The absolute wrong way to play this game normally is to hold your cds and risk going down without pressing all your buttons at least once.

    And I disagree, if 3 of us go roaming as a small group and we end up in say 3v5, then if we focus one guy I might pull him before he goes down to get distance from the other 4 so there is more time to stomp, then use elixir S to stomp him to avoid getting interrupted.

    So I've just blown two cooldowns, one of which is my major defensive cooldown to stomp the guy, if there was no downstate then I wouldn't need to use those cooldowns, nor have had to engaged my brain to bother pulling him to make the likelihood of the stomp more successful, nor would I have had to communicate with the other two members of my group on Discord to hold off a little a bit before I pulled him, because we didn't want the guy to go down where he was right next to the other 4 players for a better chance of them rezzing. Nor communicate to boonstrip the target pre-pull just to make near certain, this is why you don't randomly smash your skills off cooldown.

    Downstate increases the skill cap by adding depth, teamwork and decision making to what in some ways is a relative shallow game and certainly a shallow game mode in WvW, it rewards better players.

    Ah ok I see what you mean.

    I wasn't trying to suggest that under normal playing conditions players should "randomly" use skills simply that if they see an opportunity to use something that can lead to an enemy kill that they should precisely because it can lead to a kill and a kill can lead to a rally and any time you spend downed is time you actually get back on your cds and you can rally multiple times in a fight without going full dead so the opportunity cost for using cds is actually fairly low particularly on 10-15s cds as long as they are used to generate kills.

    You see what I'm saying?

    One of the most common mistakes I found myself making during no downed state week was overspending cds precisely because I'm so used to being able to make the cd time back in downed state. Like I didn't even realize I was doing it at first but after six years of gw2 i instinctively know to play for the rally and it got me killed a lot during no downed state week because I'm so used to being able to be so careless with cds.

    By your description it sounds like you spend a lot of time in downed state...must be a L2p issue!

  • Israel.7056Israel.7056 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 8, 2018
    Yes! Why is this not a thing already?

    @Baldrick.8967 said:
    By your description it sounds like you spend a lot of time in downed state...must be a L2p issue!

    Lol yeah but I don't need it to win it's just an easy carry once you understand the game's mechanics.

  • Chorazin.4107Chorazin.4107 Member ✭✭✭

    I dont mind down state but there needs to be more penalties when you get back up. Always found it odd you could get back up and just fly straight into the combat with everything off CD like nothing had happened.

    No down state made those massive bursts from stealth too rewarding in the WvW setting. Burst from stealth, re enter stealth, rinse repeat. Stealth in PvP is balanced well, you cannot cap. Stealth in WvW is borderline broken, it's why it seems 80% of roamers are thieves or mesmers, or the elite specs thereof.

    Roamed for the first time today for ages in a three man, the amount of mesmers/thieves was insane. Even some small groups were just all mesmers/thieves. Maybe a SB occasionally, the usual pop all stances do DPS, pop Full Counter, GS away into the sunset! Duels you would see a bit of diversity, people hanging about on varying specs, but not roaming.

    [lion] - [tRex] - [nâh]

  • Yes! Why is this not a thing already?

    The game would be way more fun without the downed state. Small groups can actually beat larger ones. The downed state only helps the larger groups which already have an advantage.

    If you're going to keep the downed state then add a HUGE penalty for being rezzed. It's absurd that we outplay a larger group, down someone, and they dogpile them for an instant rez and now we lose. Why is this a thing?

  • Lincolnbeard.1735Lincolnbeard.1735 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Yes! Why is this not a thing already?

    @EvilSardine.9635 said:
    The game would be way more fun without the downed state. Small groups can actually beat larger ones. The downed state only helps the larger groups which already have an advantage.

    ^
    This

  • SkyShroud.2865SkyShroud.2865 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Yes! Why is this not a thing already?

    The meta is simple, all legit commanders already adapt such meta before it even listed on metabattle, it is really a obvious playstyle. In such a meta, the outcome is obvious, a zerg/blob that has 10 or more than your zerg/blob, the bigger group chance of winning increased tremendously. Thus in WvW now, even by having 10 more than others already considered as blobbing others down, nowadays guild leaders know this thus they bandwagon and stack on servers. Is a sad meta, anet pushed for such meta.

    No down state is really the only way for smaller group to fight with bigger group. Otherwise, you need a exceptionally skilled small group to beat a average big group, let alone a skilled big group.

    Founder & Leader of Equinox Solstice [TIME], a Singapore-Based International PvX Guild
    Henge of Denravi Server
    www.gw2time.com

    --

    Explanations of WvW Structures & Populations Issues

  • Hitman.5829Hitman.5829 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Yes! Why is this not a thing already?

    There was a no down state in WvW? I just learned today. I missed it, but i watched a video and I like it.
    In WvW there should not be a down state. Once you are dead you are dead!
    In PVE down state is a handicap for noobs and casual players and I agree that in PVE downstate should be a thing, but in a competitive match like WvW or PvP no no no no!
    Get rid off the down state in WvW and PvP.

  • Widmo.3186Widmo.3186 Member ✭✭✭
    Other so much better idea (please explain)

    Do you really think ANet will care about this in any way, lol? No downed state was fun, especially for 1vX fights and would love to see that again and if not, then just f.e. first time you go downed state you can be ressed, but 2nd time you are instantly dead. I think that would be fair and compromiselikely.

    Dont mind me, I just randomly spam 35 skill-buttons

  • Blackarps.1974Blackarps.1974 Member ✭✭✭
    Other so much better idea (please explain)

    It was fun as an event. Bring it back every now and then to keep it interesting. Its been the best event so far however I'm not a fan of keeping it that way all the time. Lots of 1-pushing, cheese builds, and pirate shipping because people were afraid to die. It was basically normal WvW on steroids when it comes to the fighting. Not bad but not great either.

  • rng.1024rng.1024 Member ✭✭✭
    Other so much better idea (please explain)

    I'm okay with it as long as it only applies when downed by players with the "Outnumbered" buff, and the UI icon for it become visible on opponents.

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