Warrior Needs More Ranged Weapon Options — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Warrior Needs More Ranged Weapon Options

Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭
edited January 24, 2019 in Warrior

Out of the 15 land weapons, 13 are melee based... Leaving only 2 long ranged weapons, which aren't that handy in zerg play at all… The selection of weapons are not great for wvw play outside of smaller scale roaming group fights, because being melee in blobs is not a great idea. This suggestion provides mid to long ranged multi-target weapons with an extra positioning utility. The changes would make a useful weapon inside, and out, of wvw. This trait https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Crystal_Configuration:_Storm from Holosmith was part of the inspiration for the ideas...

Hammer- I feel hammer would be a great weapon by changing it to more of a 900 range attack weapon with some utility...

Examples...

  • Hammer 1, 1.2 and 1.3... 900 range ground wave attacks. 3 targets.

  • Hammer 2... 900 range ground wave attack. 3 targets.

  • Hammer 3... extend to 900 range. 3 targets.

  • Hammer 4... As is.

  • Hammer 5... Ground target leap 900 range. 5 targets.

  • Merciless Hammer Trait Ideas... 1- Remove the damage increase on CCed targets. Replace it with adding 300 more range (1,200 range) to hammer skills OR 2- Hammer could function well as a 600 range weapon with 900 range traited too... Either way it would be a big improvement to the current design.

Dagger- I really like the design and feel of Bladestorm, so let's replicate that for all the attacks...

Mace- Inspired by Thor fighting with Mjolnir

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Skull_Crack Throw your mace Dazing up to 3 targets. 900 range

  • Mace 1, 1.2, 1.3... Throw your mace and each skill progressively hits harder. 900 range

  • Mace 2... Block

  • Mace 2.1... Block end and you counter with a mace throw. 900 Range.

  • Mace 3... Leap 900 range and AoE ground smash. 300 AoE damage range

  • Mace 4... Wind-up mace throw that knocks back up to 3 targets. 900 range.

  • Mace 5... Same

*Honorable Mention- Longbow... Speed up the projectiles a bit OR give the Burning Arrows Trait a buff that increases projectile speed.

These proposed changes now give warrior 10 melee based weapons, 3 mid range weapons and 2 long range weapons...

<1

Comments

  • derd.6413derd.6413 Member ✭✭✭✭

    i kinda imagine this would make all hamwarrs look like they got the hammer in smash bros.
    but besides that: no

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  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 1, 2018

    @Lametoile.7394 said:
    Hu.....no?

    kitten...hammer as a long range weapon. It is just so absurd i don't even know what to say

    Hammer needs improvement but definitely not this

    Sure, because in the world of magic and dragons it’s totally impossible to have a ranged hammer... Do you also oppose greatswords shooting illusion magic, stealth, channeling the dead spirits from an alternate reality to gain mystical powers, calling down cosmic energy to heal pretend characters absurd? Or is it that you can’t wrap your thoughts around a ranged hammer inside of a video game?

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hammer_Shock

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Earthshaker

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Rocket_Charge

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hammer_Bolt

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Coalescence_of_Ruin

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Phase_Smash

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Drop_the_Hammer

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Zealot's_Embrace

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Thunderclap

  • Lametoile.7394Lametoile.7394 Member ✭✭✭

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @Lametoile.7394 said:
    Hu.....no?

    kitten...hammer as a long range weapon. It is just so absurd i don't even know what to say

    Hammer needs improvement but definitely not this

    Sure, because in the world of magic and dragons it’s totally impossible to have a ranged hammer... Do you also oppose greatswords shooting illusion magic, stealth, channeling the dead spirits from an alternate reality to gain mystical powers, calling down cosmic energy to heal pretend characters absurd? Or is it that you can’t wrap your thoughts around a ranged hammer inside of a video game?

    hey, calm down. God knows I have nothing against magic, dragon and all that kind of fantasy stuffs. I love them.

    However, I've always, and will always defend the idea that, even if it's fantasy, the rule of physics, logics and psychology applie.

    To be more precise, it means that, if a warrior doesn't use some kind of special magic of technology...then fighting by slamming the ground or throwing big hammers is just insanely uneffective and stupid.
    Of course, there are a lot of absurd things in GW2 but i am forgiving when it comes to high fantasy video games. Ranged hammer is a bit too much for me. Or else, give me a consistent reason of how it works. But as Leinhart.2981 pointed out, warrior doesn't use fancy telekinetic or earth magic that would allow the trick. And even if it did, it wouldn't feel like a warrior.

    I want a big improvement of rifle, not some crazy reworking of an already weak weapon

  • Lucas.3718Lucas.3718 Member ✭✭

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    Hammer- I feel hammer would be a great weapon by changing it to more of a 900 range attack weapon with some utility...

    Examples...

    Hammer 1, 1.2 and 1.3... 900 range ground wave attacks. 3 targets.

    Hammer 2... 900 range ground wave attack. 3 targets.

    Hammer 3... extend to 900 range. 3 targets.

    Hammer 4... As is.

    Hammer 5... Ground target leap 900 range. 5 targets.

    Merciless Hammer Trait... Remove the damage increase on CCed targets. Replace it with adding 300 more range (1,200 range) to hammer skills.

    Edit- I think hammer could function well as a 600 range weapon with 900 range traited too... Either way it would be a big improvement to the current design.

    Longbow... Speed up the projectiles a bit OR give the Burning Arrows Trait a buff that increases projectile speed.

    That’s it for now. TY!

    i think you missed HoT cuz there is an **entire new class with hammers that are 1200 range **

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lametoile.7394 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @Lametoile.7394 said:
    Hu.....no?

    kitten...hammer as a long range weapon. It is just so absurd i don't even know what to say

    Hammer needs improvement but definitely not this

    Sure, because in the world of magic and dragons it’s totally impossible to have a ranged hammer... Do you also oppose greatswords shooting illusion magic, stealth, channeling the dead spirits from an alternate reality to gain mystical powers, calling down cosmic energy to heal pretend characters absurd? Or is it that you can’t wrap your thoughts around a ranged hammer inside of a video game?

    hey, calm down. God knows I have nothing against magic, dragon and all that kind of fantasy stuffs. I love them.

    However, I've always, and will always defend the idea that, even if it's fantasy, the rule of physics, logics and psychology applie.

    To be more precise, it means that, if a warrior doesn't use some kind of special magic of technology...then fighting by slamming the ground or throwing big hammers is just insanely uneffective and stupid.
    Of course, there are a lot of absurd things in GW2 but i am forgiving when it comes to high fantasy video games. Ranged hammer is a bit too much for me. Or else, give me a consistent reason of how it works. But as Leinhart.2981 pointed out, warrior doesn't use fancy telekinetic or earth magic that would allow the trick. And even if it did, it wouldn't feel like a warrior.

    I want a big improvement of rifle, not some crazy reworking of an already weak weapon

    The entire idea is based around what the warrior can already do with a hammer... Or are you not aware?

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hammer_Shock

    “Smash the ground and send out a crippling wave.”

    “Range: 600”

    “This skill is a cone area of effect attack.”

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Earthshaker

    “Jump to the targeted location and slam your hammer down, damaging and stunning foes”

    “Range: 600”

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Rupturing_Smash

    “Jump to the targeted location and slam your hammer down, creating a deadly chain of earthen shock waves that immobilize foes.”

    “Range: 600”

  • TheBravery.9615TheBravery.9615 Member ✭✭✭

    1200 range cleave sounds op as kitten

  • derd.6413derd.6413 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @RedShark.9548 said:
    just lower the burst dmg of certain skills (rev cor for example, getting hit for 8k frequently on 3k+ armor and from 1200 range is just...bah.) and make an improvement to stabillity, so that it is harder to rip all stacks

    what happened to those player breakbars they talked about before hot or am i misremembering things again

    I Have No friends, so I Must pug

  • RedShark.9548RedShark.9548 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @derd.6413 said:

    @RedShark.9548 said:
    just lower the burst dmg of certain skills (rev cor for example, getting hit for 8k frequently on 3k+ armor and from 1200 range is just...bah.) and make an improvement to stabillity, so that it is harder to rip all stacks

    what happened to those player breakbars they talked about before hot or am i misremembering things again

    i dont know either tbh, maybe you are mixing that up with the banner tactics? was there some sort of announcement towards them beforehand?

  • derd.6413derd.6413 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @RedShark.9548 said:

    @derd.6413 said:

    @RedShark.9548 said:
    just lower the burst dmg of certain skills (rev cor for example, getting hit for 8k frequently on 3k+ armor and from 1200 range is just...bah.) and make an improvement to stabillity, so that it is harder to rip all stacks

    what happened to those player breakbars they talked about before hot or am i misremembering things again

    i dont know either tbh, maybe you are mixing that up with the banner tactics? was there some sort of announcement towards them beforehand?

    Initially, some skills and traits were designed to grant a Defiance bar to players. This was removed between the second and third beta weekend events of Heart of Thorns, although players still gain a defiance bar when transformed into an Enchanted Armor during the Battle in Tarir.

    from the wiki

    i remember rampage and lich form as possible candidates

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  • Vancho.8750Vancho.8750 Member ✭✭✭

    Next expac warrior gets pistols,short bow or staff(as a spear ala thief). Start theorycrafting.

  • While I would love to get a good skirmishing pistol for our next elite spec, I think warrior is fine in terms of number of ranged weapons. We're a mostly melee class, so one mainly power option and one mainly condi option is fine. The problem is that neither is great. On their own, they... do alright, I think, but they're rather clunky. All of a warrior's melee options combo into each other rather well, whether you're running hammer, GS, x/shield, offhand axe, or whatever, nearly any combination will give you a few good options in terms of lockdown, pursuit, defense, or bursts. The eternal shield-bash into burst combo comes to mind. With longbow and rifle, you lose out on all that synergy. Run rifle and you can kite a bit, plink at people for what amounts to alright amounts of damage for a few seconds, but that's it. Okay, you volleyed them, now what? It doesn't lead to anything. They got close, so now you can rifle #5 them. Then what? You've used volley already, so unless you want to sit tight for two seconds while killshot charges you'd better switch to your other weapon- oh, wait, you knocked them out of melee range. Now you have to get close again.

    For PvE, it'll always just be a matter of numbers. People will bring whatever does the most damage, breaks bar fastest, stacks the most might, whatever. Nothing you can do about that other than some simple buffs. For PvP/WvW, I think both need a little bit of a rework. Give them a clear purpose, make them work better with the rest of the class kit. Make longbow a weapon with more fire, good area-denial. Rifle presently seems built for kiting (what with cripple and the roll-back immobilize), which is kind of the opposite of what the rest of warrior is designed for. Flip it around, make it more tuned to pursue. Change the retreat on 4 so you can use the immobilize to set up a melee burst. Maybe make the bash a daze or 1s stun instead of a knockback. Make the burst a bayonet charge/stab (or, honestly, just anything you can hit with without the enemy being either afk or asleep) that inflicts more movement-impairing conditions. Keep 1-3 with maybe a slight buff to auto damage or making them do more to far-away targets, to either force a full disengage or committing to melee against the warrior. I don't know, I'm just spitballing ideas.

    TLDR: We don't need more, we just need the ones we have now to work a bit better.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 23, 2019

    @Leinhart.2981 said:
    Warrior doen't use magic, so yes, it's the most stupid idea I've ever seen. Ranged hammer... Why not a close range shortbow, because it's short! It definitly made for melee!

    While I don't like the idea the OP has, it's certainly not stupid because of the limitations YOU impose on what you think the warrior should be.

    I don't support changing any current weapons, but the espec is a reasonable way to petition for a ranged weapon.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Leinhart.2981 said:
    Warrior doen't use magic, so yes, it's the most stupid idea I've ever seen. Ranged hammer... Why not a close range shortbow, because it's short! It definitly made for melee!

    While I don't like the idea the OP has, it's certainly not stupid because of the limitations YOU impose on what you think the warrior should be.

    I don't support changing any current weapons, but the espec is a reasonable way to petition for a ranged weapon.

    A ranged weapon is not a bad idea (even if we actually already have 2, we just need a correct rifle) but the idea of a warrior using magic is just stupid. If I want a mage knight I'll pick a guard. A war is a master of martial arts, that's all. We just need to respect the archetype.

  • Aracz.4702Aracz.4702 Member ✭✭
    edited January 23, 2019

    @Leinhart.2981 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Leinhart.2981 said:
    Warrior doen't use magic, so yes, it's the most stupid idea I've ever seen. Ranged hammer... Why not a close range shortbow, because it's short! It definitly made for melee!

    While I don't like the idea the OP has, it's certainly not stupid because of the limitations YOU impose on what you think the warrior should be.

    I don't support changing any current weapons, but the espec is a reasonable way to petition for a ranged weapon.

    A ranged weapon is not a bad idea (even if we actually already have 2, we just need a correct rifle) but the idea of a warrior using magic is just stupid. If I want a mage knight I'll pick a guard. A war is a master of martial arts, that's all. We just need to respect the archetype.

    But warriors are using magic. Signets in lore are items infused in magic. Shouts and banners can be explained by magic (or you can imagine boons which they grant are just morale boost, but i think it's a bit more stupid than magic :D) , stances too, I just can't explain becoming immune to conditions while still being valuable to direct hits in other way, than by "magic". Just imagine situation - you get hit by poison dart. This dar't doesn't pierce through your skin (don't deal power damage), but it poisons you :D
    Same with almost everything which grants you a boons. Okay, you can explain for yourself it's a effect of... Adrenaline, morale, and temporary stances, but there are situations where you can explain it only by magic, or act like it didn't happen (retaliation/resistance/immunity/banners/deflecting arrow to it source with shield)

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 23, 2019

    All beings use magic in Tyria, even Warrior beings.

    All the skills I came up with are more “physical” based anyway, and things the Warrior can do already...

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Warrior

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Earthshaker

    “Jump to the targeted location and slam your hammer down, damaging and stunning foes.”

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hammer_Shock

    “Smash the ground and send out a crippling wave.”

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Tremor

    “Send a wave toward your foe that knocks down foes in a line.” 1,200 range no less...

    ...I honestly don’t know how anyone can view sending out “crippling waves”... or throwing daggers... or throwing maces... or leaping... as overly magical by design.

  • Regh.8649Regh.8649 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 23, 2019

    @Aguna.3497 said:
    What if instead of ranged weapons they give us more gap closers or better leap attacks with low cooldowns. Idk feels more physical that way.

    Spear could be just that ;) more radius and short fast leaps, more focused on single targets and make the burst a "throw spear" a long range burst (I know this role is already taken by the rifle but maybe with less dmg and unrooted)
    Just saying without much thought, since it would be a new weapon its a good opportunity to make something new

    Formula for success: Rise early, work hard, strike oil.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 23, 2019

    @Leinhart.2981 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Leinhart.2981 said:
    Warrior doen't use magic, so yes, it's the most stupid idea I've ever seen. Ranged hammer... Why not a close range shortbow, because it's short! It definitly made for melee!

    While I don't like the idea the OP has, it's certainly not stupid because of the limitations YOU impose on what you think the warrior should be.

    I don't support changing any current weapons, but the espec is a reasonable way to petition for a ranged weapon.

    A ranged weapon is not a bad idea (even if we actually already have 2, we just need a correct rifle) but the idea of a warrior using magic is just stupid. If I want a mage knight I'll pick a guard. A war is a master of martial arts, that's all. We just need to respect the archetype.

    Maybe, but who's to say it doesn't already use magic? That's Anet's call and I think if you look a little harder, you see there are elements of magic in what warriors do ... even if you think it's stupid.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • my sword melee Ele feels more like a warrior than my GS melee warrior !

  • Change the Longbow to shortbow, Condi Longbow doesn't seems right.
    And add the Longbow with E-spec, Power Longbow.

  • BlackTruth.6813BlackTruth.6813 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 6, 2019

    I'll be happy with combustive shot nerfs getting reversed and Kill Shot being baseline unblockable (You're already rooted and it has a high casting time..)

    But I doubt ANET will even revert nerfs in the first place. Rifle has been and will probably be neglected or ANET just wants Rifle to be hard.

  • While I agree that warrior ranged options need some attention, I don't think changing hammer is the way to go. If more elite specs are added, I'd like to see a main-hand ranged option such as pistol. I say that because I'd like to utilize the trait Dual Wielding while ranged. If more elite specs are not added, then my vote would be to revamp warrior rifle. There have been many threads specific to suggestions for rifle revamp, many with good ideas presented.

  • sneakytails.5629sneakytails.5629 Member ✭✭✭

    Normally I dont like unblockable attacks unless the player has to do something to get it. Like slotting a utility or signet on the skill bar. Just tacking it on to an attack is cheap and only hurts the game with less counter-play options, heavy hitting ranged attacks should be blockable. The attacker should have to play around the defenders blocks, that's the skill element at play.

    But then Deadeye got unblockable just tacked on to Deaths Judgement "just becuz", and Soulbeast has plenty of unblockable as well. Considering this perhaps BlackTruth is right, Killshot should also get the same treatment.

  • Lighter.5631Lighter.5631 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 24, 2019

    give war staff as a throw weapon, spear would be better, but its not land

  • Opopanax.1803Opopanax.1803 Member ✭✭✭✭

    update rifle first.

  • Acheron.4731Acheron.4731 Member ✭✭✭

    I think they need to update gunflame to pierce again. It may have seemed OP after HoT but since PoF intro of FB's and scrapper sustain blobs with scourges tucked nicely in..a good gf with Signet of Might can help disperse that ball :)

    Dilly Dilly

  • @Acheron.4731 said:
    I think they need to update gunflame to pierce again. It may have seemed OP after HoT but since PoF intro of FB's and scrapper sustain blobs with scourges tucked nicely in..a good gf with Signet of Might can help disperse that ball :)

    I can get behind this. It does AoE though. Maybe make the AoE larger instead? Reduce Rifle 2 to a 4s CD, reduce Rifle 3 to a 6s CD, increase the damage on Rifle 1 and Rifle 2 by 20%. Unroot Killshot. Rifle might actually be decent then... especially if Crackshot made all the rounds pierce again like it used too.

  • Arklite.4013Arklite.4013 Member ✭✭
    edited August 29, 2019

    Warrior has ranged weapons that are almost usable as is. Hambow was meta for what seemed like forever. Rifle has been in and out of playability. I think most players would just prefer they allow these to be viable ranged alternates rather than giving us Revenant hammer 2.0.

  • Opopanax.1803Opopanax.1803 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Baseline rifle piercing would be a great start. I liked some ideas above.

    Longbow is almost perfrct, just need AA burning as baseline, and maybe a stack of burning on arcing arrow. Done.

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 30, 2019

    I'd like to have Rifle doing reliable not-so-abysmal power damage.
    That's would help me a lot against Scourges and Deadeyes.
    But Anet wants us to be glued to melee range.

  • Increase Rifle AA damage by 50%, reduce baseline CD on Rifle 2 and rifle 3 by 2s each. Unroot Killshot. These three changes to Rifle would make it a viable range power DPS weapon for warriors of any flavor.

  • @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:
    Increase Rifle AA damage by 50%, reduce baseline CD on Rifle 2 and rifle 3 by 2s each. Unroot Killshot. These three changes to Rifle would make it a viable range power DPS weapon for warriors of any flavor.

    These. I don't want more ranged 'options', I'd prefer that the rifle is just adjusted a bit.

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:
    Increase Rifle AA damage by 50%, reduce baseline CD on Rifle 2 and rifle 3 by 2s each. Unroot Killshot. These three changes to Rifle would make it a viable range power DPS weapon for warriors of any flavor.

    I don't see how these particular changes are needed or even reasonable.

  • @Sobx.1758 said:

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:
    Increase Rifle AA damage by 50%, reduce baseline CD on Rifle 2 and rifle 3 by 2s each. Unroot Killshot. These three changes to Rifle would make it a viable range power DPS weapon for warriors of any flavor.

    I don't see how these particular changes are needed or even reasonable.

    Rifle damage sucks is why. Volley and Gunflame may be useful for plinking noobs in WvW, but beyond that Rifle is lackluster as a weapon. It very well could be a viable main weapon if they made some changes. Namely, increase AA damage by 50%, but this could be instead to reduce the cast from 3/4s to 1/4s, but as is the attack speed vs damage ratio makes the AA stink. After that reducing Rifle 2 and 3 baseline CD each by 2s would be sufficient to raise the dps of the weapon without further tweaks.

  • It doesn't even have to be the numbers you've outlined tbh. Rifle just needs looking at in some capacity. If Anet are worried about the knock on effects of buffing rifle base damage and cooldowns and how it'd interact with spellbreakers in PvP then I'm cool if they instead shift it to a trait that creates a trade off. If they're worried about a true power ranged option for warriors full stop then I'm cool if Anet redesigns the weapon from the ground up. As long as it gets a purpose somewhere other than running round in open world (where it's not necessarily good per say but works because well anything works) or gunflame meme builds then I'm happy.

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 2, 2019

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:
    Increase Rifle AA damage by 50%, reduce baseline CD on Rifle 2 and rifle 3 by 2s each. Unroot Killshot. These three changes to Rifle would make it a viable range power DPS weapon for warriors of any flavor.

    I don't see how these particular changes are needed or even reasonable.

    Rifle damage sucks is why. Volley and Gunflame may be useful for plinking noobs in WvW, but beyond that Rifle is lackluster as a weapon. It very well could be a viable main weapon if they made some changes. Namely, increase AA damage by 50%, but this could be instead to reduce the cast from 3/4s to 1/4s, but as is the attack speed vs damage ratio makes the AA stink. After that reducing Rifle 2 and 3 baseline CD each by 2s would be sufficient to raise the dps of the weapon without further tweaks.

    Ok, so I said I don't understand why these particular changes are needed and all you did was repeat them to me again, that's not even close to answering what you based these particular changes/numbers on. It seems you simply said "it needs to be stronger" and then randomized some dmg buffs and cd reductions for no good reason. It also seems your "go to buff" is "reduce cd of 2 skills by 2 seconds", because I'm pretty sure that's not the first weapon you propose that for.
    I think rifle is already an ok swap weapon and it shouldn't be a ""viable"" (as in "one of the top picks", because pretty sure that's what most people on this forum mean when they say "viable") main weapon used by warrior. It seems what you -and other people that keep saying ranged options for warrior need buffing- want here is some kind of deadeye knock-off while remaining beefy, because you're still a warrior.
    Rifle AA already has the same dmg, range and cast time as DE, which is literally a designated squishy rifle e-spec, so again I don't really understand why 50% dmg buff is something you think is deserved here. 2 second cd reduction on 2 skills (which already have decently short cooldowns when traited in the first place)? Again, why? Unrooting killshot? Why? I'm not asking you to repeat the same buffs "because you think rifle needs buffs", I'm asking you why you propose these particular buffs and numbers. "Reducing cd on 2 skills by 2 seconds would raise dps", well removing CD on every skill OR doing as little as reducing CD of "5" by half a second would buff dps too, it's not much of an answer. What I want to know is: did you run some numbers here or are you just shooting random buffs because yes?

    Anyways, I still think it shouldn't be buffed, it's good enough as a situational ranged swap as it is.

  • Ambrosius Custard.8137Ambrosius Custard.8137 Member ✭✭
    edited September 3, 2019

    If we're talking about zerker rifle then I kind of agree that it is 'okay' as a backup weapon even if it is carried largely by volley + gunflame burst. If we're talking core rifle, then no I don't agree that rifle is really 'okay'. I can't think of anywhere that I'd use a rifle even as a backup weapon in pretty much any game mode unless I'm fooling around. I'd honestly rather take long bow, even on a power build, if I want to just plink at things in open world. Back in the day core rifle did see some use in WvW, but not really in the current state of the game outside of what are really tier 2 zerker rifle builds that pretty much just switch out to lmao with a volley + gunflame combo. I actually agree that just flat out buffing AA isn't the answer but it's also pretty pointless to make comparisons between Brutal Aim and Fierce Shot in isolation of the rest of the kit. As a start, Brutal stacks vuln and casts faster (despite the tooltip saying they're both 3/4, it's slightly quicker) and Fierce only gets a very slight adrenaline increase against vulnerable targets.

    My own suggestions, along with explanations, would be:

    1) Bake in the bonus adrenaline from Crack Shot to Fierce Shot. I think something along these lines is better than just out and out increasing rifle damage further like it was in 2018 (and still seldom used). Numbers wise even with this buff, we're still talking 10 AA shots against a vulnerable target to max adrenaline, which seems reasonable. This would basically make core rifle a good adrenaline generator when you can't stick or engage a target in melee, which seems like a good place to be. Crack Shot is quite neat but it's rarely ever taken due to it being next to Warriors Sprint. I'd consider moving Crack Shot or combining it with another trait, but I couldn't say where (potentially to a different tree than Discipline as to actually create some trade offs). If the adrenaline gain were to be baked in baseline then a possible addition to the trait could be basically adding bleed back to auto (back when Fierce Shot was Bleeding Shot) as it was relatively minor and inline with similar ranged traits like Burning Arrows.

    2) Reduce Brutal Shot from 1/2 to 1/4 cast time. The main reason is that Brutal Shot has always had this weird bug where it goes on cooldown if the target moves behind or walks past you, having 1/4 cast time would potentially eliminate this bug and also make sense given that one of the purposes of Brutal shot is to quickly create distance between you and the target. Given that it doesn't pierce or cleave, this doesn't seem like a big change.

    3) Either unroot Kill Shot but keep the current cast time or keep the root and reduce the cast time to be 3/4 like Gun Flame. In either case, Gun Flame is still the better burst skill (and should be as it's kind zerkers whole shtick) but the original intention of Kill Shot was to be high risk/high reward and in the current state of the game it's kind of high risk/mediocre-at-best reward. In the current state of the game, now that we've got elite specs and all the power creep, Kill Shot feels pretty out of place. Unrooting would bring it more in line with the other 'long' cast time rifle skill Volley and make the weapon overall less clunky I feel.

    I think these are really just QoL changes overall. I do think that any further buffing of rifle needs to be carefully considered and I think the best way would be via giving some good traits to rifle as to create a trade off.

  • @Sobx.1758 said:

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:
    Increase Rifle AA damage by 50%, reduce baseline CD on Rifle 2 and rifle 3 by 2s each. Unroot Killshot. These three changes to Rifle would make it a viable range power DPS weapon for warriors of any flavor.

    I don't see how these particular changes are needed or even reasonable.

    Rifle damage sucks is why. Volley and Gunflame may be useful for plinking noobs in WvW, but beyond that Rifle is lackluster as a weapon. It very well could be a viable main weapon if they made some changes. Namely, increase AA damage by 50%, but this could be instead to reduce the cast from 3/4s to 1/4s, but as is the attack speed vs damage ratio makes the AA stink. After that reducing Rifle 2 and 3 baseline CD each by 2s would be sufficient to raise the dps of the weapon without further tweaks.

    Ok, so I said I don't understand why these particular changes are needed and all you did was repeat them to me again, that's not even close to answering what you based these particular changes/numbers on. It seems you simply said "it needs to be stronger" and then randomized some dmg buffs and cd reductions for no good reason. It also seems your "go to buff" is "reduce cd of 2 skills by 2 seconds", because I'm pretty sure that's not the first weapon you propose that for.
    I think rifle is already an ok swap weapon and it shouldn't be a ""viable"" (as in "one of the top picks", because pretty sure that's what most people on this forum mean when they say "viable") main weapon used by warrior. It seems what you -and other people that keep saying ranged options for warrior need buffing- want here is some kind of deadeye knock-off while remaining beefy, because you're still a warrior.
    Rifle AA already has the same dmg, range and cast time as DE, which is literally a designated squishy rifle e-spec, so again I don't really understand why 50% dmg buff is something you think is deserved here. 2 second cd reduction on 2 skills (which already have decently short cooldowns when traited in the first place)? Again, why? Unrooting killshot? Why? I'm not asking you to repeat the same buffs "because you think rifle needs buffs", I'm asking you why you propose these particular buffs and numbers. "Reducing cd on 2 skills by 2 seconds would raise dps", well removing CD on every skill OR doing as little as reducing CD of "5" by half a second would buff dps too, it's not much of an answer. What I want to know is: did you run some numbers here or are you just shooting random buffs because yes?

    Anyways, I still think it shouldn't be buffed, it's good enough as a situational ranged swap as it is.

    How about you go use Rifle for something other than gunflame lolz vs noobs in PvP and WvW. Outside of that rifle is meh. I mentioned AA, Rifle 2, and Rifle 3 because that is where the damage is. AA either needs more damage on it, or to cast quicker. Although @Ambrosius Custard.8137 has a good recommendation.

    As to WHY I mentioned CD reduction instead of adding on MOAR damage onto Rifle 2 and Rifle 3, that is because it avoids any issues with damage modifiers stacking the damage too high, if that is too complicated to grasp then go read the QQ threads on the old "Sic'em!". A cool down reduction on those skills effectively increases the dps of the weapon kit without breaking the raw damage numbers. So, no I am not spouting off random numbers.

    I did not even get into Kill Shot, which as @Ambrosius Custard.8137 stated was a high risk/high reward skill at launch, but now is just all risk/no reward with how the game has evolved. It needs to either be unrooted, or to have a shorter cast time. Since you do not seem to understand why Kill Shot is an all risk/no reward F1 at the moment, if you use it you are sitting still, you will get aoe'd, cc'd, or just dps'd until the last frame where the enemy will simply dodge. If you choose to move out of or dodge any of the aforementioned aoe, cc, or dps then Kill Shot goes on CD. You may be able to land it in a zerg fight or keep fight in WvW, but beyond that there is little chance you will land it, unlike Gunflame which is superior in every way.

    Perhaps instead of naysaying you should instead offer up as to WHY you perceive everything to be fine with Rifle eh?

    @Ambrosius Custard.8137 I'd like crack shot to make all rounds pierce again like it used too personally.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 10, 2019

    Yeah I think it's a little bit of fantasy to think rifle needs improvements because it's meh in a specific game mode. That's never been a reason to fix anything in this game, ESPECIALLY if there are already lots of options in that game mode to choose from to begin with.

    Sure, things suck in PVE. That hasn't been a very significant reason in the past to improve things, so I don't see the why it would be different for rifle. It's not fine, but that's simply not a compelling reason to change it. Most of the changes we see are not rationalized by performance.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • @Obtena.7952 said:
    Yeah I think it's a little bit of fantasy to think rifle needs improvements because it's meh in a specific game mode. That's never been a reason to fix anything in this game, ESPECIALLY if there are already lots of options in that game mode to choose from to begin with.

    Sure, things suck in PVE. That hasn't been a very significant reason in the past to improve things, so I don't see the why it would be different for rifle. It's not fine, but that's simply not a compelling reason to change it. Most of the changes we see are not rationalized by performance.

    Its meh in every gamemode sans gunflaming people in WvW.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    Yeah I think it's a little bit of fantasy to think rifle needs improvements because it's meh in a specific game mode. That's never been a reason to fix anything in this game, ESPECIALLY if there are already lots of options in that game mode to choose from to begin with.

    Sure, things suck in PVE. That hasn't been a very significant reason in the past to improve things, so I don't see the why it would be different for rifle. It's not fine, but that's simply not a compelling reason to change it. Most of the changes we see are not rationalized by performance.

    Its meh in every gamemode sans gunflaming people in WvW.

    Sure ... we can't discount the idea that's intended. I don't think it's a stretch to that the Warrior concept is a melee-heavy class with some limited access to ranged weapons. I mean, do we actually come to the conclusion that more or better ranged options is what is going to maintain that concept? OP wants more ranged options for positioning utility. To me that doesn't maintain that concept of the class. Really, the concept of a class is just as much about the things it doesn't have as the things it has. If we just throw everything all every class that people regard as a gap in it's options, then the class concept gets continually degraded.

    THIS is why I don't think you will ever see improvements to warrior ranged weapons outside of an espec that will really make the significant changes people desire. People don't think about class concept when they propose these ideas. This is just another example of that.

    Now, that being said, Anet does some very random changes to classes and has been known to rework whole elements (see mesmer phantasms for example) so maybe they stumble on this change, but be assured, that kind of higher level impact on a class is conceptual, not performance.

    TLDR: I think if we want to make more realistic suggestions that change how a class works, we need to be more considerate of the conceptual side of the class.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

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