W6 CMs too easy? — Guild Wars 2 Forums

W6 CMs too easy?

The W6 raids is not even 2 full weeks old and the Champion of Zommoros title already seems to be very present amongst raiders. A quick look on gw2efficiency seems to confirm my suspicion.
Champion of Zommors after 12 days: 859 von 196.362 (~72 people per day)
Voice in the Void after 306 days: 2.715 of 196.362 (~9 people per day)
Demon's Demise after 599 days : 6.514 of 196362 (~11 people per day)

I remember Voice in the Void still being very rare (around 100 unlocks maybe) despite the possible exploit after weeks, so it is quite disappointing that we get this after waiting so long for a new raid and now need to wait 6+ months for something new.

Comments

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 30, 2018

    Yes and no. Remember that there is a burst of people who will get the title after release. Mostly experienced raiders aiming to get it.

    This will naturally drop as less and less people aim for the title and/or are able to complete it.

    Ideally one would compare the first week title unlock for each title but those are not available unless someone took a snapshot back then.

    Total completion does seem higher though I agree. Interesting to compare with W4 since W4 is considered the easiest wing so far while the challenge modes for some bosses were quite a bump. Maybe the CMs for wing 6 are closer to the original fight making it easier for people to adapt to them.

    EDIT. VitV is probably the most difficult CM to get (non exploiting) building on a boss where a huge majority are incapable or unwilling to complete the base version. That automatically reduces the amount of people who can get the title too.

  • Blocki.4931Blocki.4931 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Wing 5 had a huge barrier of entry, don't forget that.

    Bite me.

  • Illconceived Was Na.9781Illconceived Was Na.9781 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 30, 2018

    tl;dr using the numbers we have available, the evidence shows Wing 5 CM and Wing 6 CM roughly the same in terms of accessibilty
    Whether a CM is too hard or too easy is something that is partly a matter of preference, not just numbres.


    @Malediktus.9250 said:
    The W6 raids is not even 2 full weeks old and the Champion of Zommoros title already seems to be very present amongst raiders. A quick look on gw2efficiency seems to confirm my suspicion.
    Champion of Zommors after 12 days: 859 von 196.362 (~72 people per day)
    Voice in the Void after 306 days: 2.715 of 196.362 (~9 people per day)
    Demon's Demise after 599 days : 6.514 of 196362 (~11 people per day)

    I remember Voice in the Void still being very rare (around 100 unlocks maybe) despite the possible exploit after weeks, so it is quite disappointing that we get this after waiting so long for a new raid and now need to wait 6+ months for something new.

    Your stats don't prove your case. The bulk of people completing CM will happen closer to launch; the numbers will taper off. You'd have to compare the first 12 days of VitV and DD (which I realize you don't have, although maybe @queicherius.2563 does).

    A more reasonable comparison is to compare how many people have cleared the wings with how many have the title.

    • Wing 6 clears: 4037 vs 'regulars of the tour': 860, a ratio of 4.7:1
    • Wing 5 clears: 11159 vs 'silencer': 2701, a ratio of 4.13:1

    I'd imagine that the ratio will trend down over time, as more less-skilled players (e.g. myself) eventually manage to survive normal mode, without necessarily dominating CM.

    And all this ignores a central design assumption made by the OP: what exactly does it mean for something to be too hard versus too easy? All we can measure with "how many completed" is... how many completed. It doesn't tell us anything about how fun it is or about whether it's better for the game for CM to be managed by 50% of the players or better if it's 5%, whether it's better to have CM done early or to take months and months.

    Hype is the path to the dark side. Hype leads to unfulfilled expectations. Disappointment leads to anger. Anger leads to disgust. Disgust leads to "oh, new shinies! I'm back!"

  • Malediktus.9250Malediktus.9250 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Yes and no. Remember that there is a burst of people who will get the title after release. Mostly experienced raiders aiming to get it.

    This will naturally drop as less and less people aim for the title and/or are able to complete it.

    Ideally one would compare the first week title unlock for each title but those are not available unless someone took a snapshot back then.

    Total completion does seem higher though I agree. Interesting to compare with W4 since W4 is considered the easiest wing so far while the challenge modes for some bosses were quite a bump. Maybe the CMs for wing 6 are closer to the original fight making it easier for people to adapt to them.

    EDIT. VitV is probably the most difficult CM to get (non exploiting) building on a boss where a huge majority are incapable or unwilling to complete the base version. That automatically reduces the amount of people who can get the title too.

    Sure it will slow down, but I am very sure that VitV was not completed nearly as often as CoZ at this point in time. 100 people or so vs 800.

    Wing 4 title was releatively rare for a long time. Samarog before the nerf was very hard for most people. Same with Deimos before aegis could block the tiers. A lot of people might have not tried again after the changes

  • Turin.6921Turin.6921 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 30, 2018

    A mix of tough bosses like w5 and easy farm-able bosses like w6 (especially when the encounters are so fun) is not a bad idea actually.

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 30, 2018

    Who cares. It's a game. Get over it and look for challenges irl.

  • Malediktus.9250Malediktus.9250 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 30, 2018

    @Turin.6921 said:
    A mix of tough bosses like w5 and easy farm-able bosses like w6 (especially when the encounters are so fun) is not a bad idea actually.

    too bad w5 only had one tough boss. the rest are two events and a boss easier than vg (even on cm)

    @Vinceman.4572 said:
    Who cares. It's a game. Get over it and look for challenges irl.

    If only real life challenges did not have a severe chance of getting damaged or killed

  • Talindra.4958Talindra.4958 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 1, 2018

    I'm quite fine with the difficulty level with this raid. What it means, more ppl can do it less gets toxic .. I done all cm except the b3, don't have the time to do it and most pug done it.. I can wait for next batch of pug to do it. In two months time clearing w6 will be fastest of all other wings. I like short pre events. This wing is sweet. With b3, ppl can still fail mechanic such as dodging waves, ways to recognise boss moves and attack..I find dodging or jumping the waves is like fractal cm or deimos slam.. When qadim swing right arm down then left .. and next both arms swing from the right down is when the attack similar to Deimos hammer swing will land the wave. Well when I say similar is comparing the timing to react to such attack when you stack right on the boss. Playing with 400 ping is a little tricky and sensitive to timing to react. I find that avoiding the wave is not bad, avoiding the aoe on the ground however is very bad, reaction to that has to be instant for high ping which mean only way to avoid is dodge out not walk out. Sometimes even if you are split second outside that aoe, you still eat the damage. The timing to react for this is similar to the cliffside fractal where the final boss place aoe on ground that tele ppl to cage. Reaction to this aoe has to be instant for high ping player which means Dodge.. If dev can make this aoe response time little more forgiving to high ping , it will really be nice. Because we need to save dodge for other things.
    I don't have any other things to windge 🤣🤣
    All I have to say puglife sucks
    And australian playtime sucks

    Death is Energy [DIE] in EU
    Envoy's Herald, EAoA, CoZ, VitV, DD, SS, The Eternal, LNHB, Champion Magus, Champion Phantom, Wondrous Achiever etc.

  • Henry.5713Henry.5713 Member ✭✭✭✭

    They are easier, no doubt. Though, I wouldn't say Wing 5 is THAT much harder. Full Scourge squads made sure of that even if it took a while. The main difference seems to be that people more used to stack which ever classes are most efficient or easiest. Boss 1 is all about Holosmiths, Boss 2 all about Mirages. I also feel like class balance seems to have changed in our favour. Numbers are far more even than they used to be, thus they no longer heavily punish any groups not willing to use such strategies.

    Progress isn't made by early risers. It's made by lazy men trying to find easier ways to do something. ~ Robert Heinlein

  • Nimon.7840Nimon.7840 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Malediktus.9250 said:
    The W6 raids is not even 2 full weeks old and the Champion of Zommoros title already seems to be very present amongst raiders. A quick look on gw2efficiency seems to confirm my suspicion.
    Champion of Zommors after 12 days: 859 von 196.362 (~72 people per day)
    Voice in the Void after 306 days: 2.715 of 196.362 (~9 people per day)
    Demon's Demise after 599 days : 6.514 of 196362 (~11 people per day)

    I remember Voice in the Void still being very rare (around 100 unlocks maybe) despite the possible exploit after weeks, so it is quite disappointing that we get this after waiting so long for a new raid and now need to wait 6+ months for something new.

    Is 196.362 the total number of raiders? Or total number of attempts?
    In order to have this more representative, you would also need to compare the days.

    So my raidgroup didn't try CMS in w6 yet. We didn't even kill quadim.
    But that's because we only have 2 hours per week planned for w6. And then we also have a big variety of players. They are not always the same

  • Miellyn.6847Miellyn.6847 Member ✭✭✭

    @Nimon.7840 said:

    @Malediktus.9250 said:
    The W6 raids is not even 2 full weeks old and the Champion of Zommoros title already seems to be very present amongst raiders. A quick look on gw2efficiency seems to confirm my suspicion.
    Champion of Zommors after 12 days: 859 von 196.362 (~72 people per day)
    Voice in the Void after 306 days: 2.715 of 196.362 (~9 people per day)
    Demon's Demise after 599 days : 6.514 of 196362 (~11 people per day)

    I remember Voice in the Void still being very rare (around 100 unlocks maybe) despite the possible exploit after weeks, so it is quite disappointing that we get this after waiting so long for a new raid and now need to wait 6+ months for something new.

    Is 196.362 the total number of raiders? Or total number of attempts?
    In order to have this more representative, you would also need to compare the days.

    So my raidgroup didn't try CMS in w6 yet. We didn't even kill quadim.
    But that's because we only have 2 hours per week planned for w6. And then we also have a big variety of players. They are not always the same

    It's the number of registered gw2efficiency accounts. Which also accounts for not longer used accounts and is not relevant for later bosses.

  • cryorion.9532cryorion.9532 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 1, 2018

    I feel like this wing CMs were designed with pugs in mind. I managed to complete W6 CMs with pugs and even though it was very time and effor consuming, we did it.
    If anet makes CMs hard for hardcore players/guilds, pugs will never be able to do it.

  • yann.1946yann.1946 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 1, 2018

    @cryorion.9532 said:
    I feel like this wing CMs were designed with pugs in mind. I managed to complete W6 CMs with pugs and even though it was very time and effor consuming, we did it.
    If anet makes CMs hard for hardcore players/guilds, pugs will never be able to do it.

    Even dhuum cm was completed with pugs. Personally I think it is impossible to make a boss which you can't clear as a pug.

  • Malediktus.9250Malediktus.9250 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 1, 2018

    Champion of Zommors after 13 days: 983 von 196.362 (~76 people per day) --> +124 in 1 day
    (Voice in the Void only +2, Demon's Demise +15)

    over 100 new gw2efficiency users got it in a single day, at this rate it will take less than a month until it is more common than VitV

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Malediktus.9250 said:
    Champion of Zommors after 13 days: 983 von 196.362 (~76 people per day) --> +124 in 1 day
    (Voice in the Void only +2, Demon's Demise +15)

    over 100 new gw2efficiency users got it in a single day, at this rate it will take less than a month until it is more common than VitV

    Low increases in the old titles are to be expected. These will be pretty much the same people who have DD/VitV now doing w6 CMs. Are they easier? Yeah, it feels like it. I think I'll keep my VitV equipped even after I clear W6 cms. But that's fine honestly. It's OK to have this kind of titles differ in difficulty and accessibility.

  • yann.1946yann.1946 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I personally think the more appropriate question would be where they fun?

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @yann.1946 said:
    I personally think the more appropriate question would be where they fun?

    In general the whole wing was fun. CMs in particular maybe less so, as they don't feel that much different. Then again, I'm not sure they need to.

  • Zunki.3916Zunki.3916 Member ✭✭✭

    I think the problem lies in some broken meta comps. If you just go into the raid with a "2 healer, 2 tank, 6 dd"-Setup in mind boss 2 seems rather hard. But if you switch to 8/10 mesmer setup it's a joke.

    I have more and more issues with the idea, that anet balances around everyone playing different classes and builds through one raidwing, while not even providing buildtemplates. Also, the idea of having 8/10 mesmers in a raid screams for rather broken game design to me, and it seems to get worse, not better. It's always 4...6 times the same dd, 2 chrono, 1...2 druids and than some specific 10man buff-builds to fill the spot.

    Get rid of dual chrono setups, get rid of dual druid, and if you buff one other healer don't forget the other options, as they get even less used when only is made stronger to compete with druid but the others are left behind. Also, either give every spec some good 10man buffs, with every buff coming from at least 3 different specs, or let them go.
    And why are the strongest boons limited to 1...2 specs?! How on earth makes that sense? Every class can provide swift, regen, might etc, but only some can give alac and quickness? Revamp the core classes and spread it more evenly. It should be more 2 players from a 5 man group providing permanent buffs then one providing nearly all of them alone. Yes, the pure dps is not bad balanced atm, but the buffs and supports are so broken to me...

    Viable != Optimal

    Not viable = You only get carried, 10 players with a build as "viable as yours" can't properly do it.

  • maxwelgm.4315maxwelgm.4315 Member ✭✭✭

    You seem to be rating difficulty as a function of the time it takes for any one person to complete the encounter as well as the total amount of people who could complete the encounter under a certain time, but maybe there's just more people that are good around for w6, than we had for w5?

    It's also very hard to come up with mechanics that are completely original. In spite of non-raiders not knowing much, raiders by now already come into a new instance packing all their boonstrips, CCs and know what to look out for (green circles, adds, buffs and debuffs, etc.). The way other MMOs introduce difficulty is by increasing numbers and using vertical progression to hide the repetition of mechanics, and to be honest Anet is actually doing a stellar job in keeping encounters as unique as it is feasible to do.

    Finally, W5 has a lot of (supposed) RNG involved, from the walls at Desmina to most of Dhuum's stuff, whereas W6 can be played like a dance and there is actually a "perfect time" of completion given that nothing going is unpredictable. This makes it much easier for a pug group of experienced players to complete it faster for example.

  • Raizel.8175Raizel.8175 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Malediktus.9250 said:
    The W6 raids is not even 2 full weeks old and the Champion of Zommoros title already seems to be very present amongst raiders. A quick look on gw2efficiency seems to confirm my suspicion.
    Champion of Zommors after 12 days: 859 von 196.362 (~72 people per day)
    Voice in the Void after 306 days: 2.715 of 196.362 (~9 people per day)
    Demon's Demise after 599 days : 6.514 of 196362 (~11 people per day)

    I remember Voice in the Void still being very rare (around 100 unlocks maybe) despite the possible exploit after weeks, so it is quite disappointing that we get this after waiting so long for a new raid and now need to wait 6+ months for something new.

    I really don't understand you. Sure, I'm with you with some stuff you write, but this? The raiding-community is already digging its own grave. The game is easily one of the, if not the most unsocial MMORPG on the market due to how it's designed - so yeah, ArenaNet should definitely design content with PUGs in mind, especially since the community keeps abusing the "KP"-system which raid-sellers already happily use to extort people who are afraid that they won't get into the content once several weeks have passed. W5 and 99/100CM already suffer from the same problem. The raiding community is already tiny. We should ArenaNet focus on shrinking it down even more? How do you want to justify that a lot of lore, several iconic encounters and regions and several top-tier cosmetics are reserved for a tiny faction of the playerbase?

  • Talindra.4958Talindra.4958 Member ✭✭✭✭

    We already know the typical raid mechanics.. -- green circle, blue circle, bomb, poison, aoes, random target mechanic, toughness or distance triggers etc. I think in w5 it was a bit different which involve more team play and some new mechanics. I think wing 5 is actually very well thought. There are still many raiders that hasn't done w5. With difficulty level in w6, we see it opens door to many new raiders .. there's some slightly fresh mechanic in this new raid and it's still fun to play. Also it doesn't put too much pressure to many individual in the group to specific task. And they are fairly soft mechanic. I don't mind more future wings like this or perhaps it should be made a little harder but tone down with individual task such as the green mechanic in dhuum...perhaps reducing the number of orbs eg 3 instead of 5, or lengthen the time slightly idk so that anyone can do it without too much training req with this mechanic.. W6 feels easier than all other raid wings (to me anyway) but I still think its well thought.. I mean if we look at current meta group, new raid should not cause too much adjustment to grouping that can cause splitting up or unpleasant environment in static group.. it doesn't affect me much since I pug but still I'm looking at general raid community 😋 I can tell w5 has put a lot of stress to static raid group and w6 is at a different level of play plus fun. .. idk.. I still think raid should be harder although I don't like pressure lol just give me tones of ap in next raid I will be happy.. I think malediktus will be happy too lol

    Death is Energy [DIE] in EU
    Envoy's Herald, EAoA, CoZ, VitV, DD, SS, The Eternal, LNHB, Champion Magus, Champion Phantom, Wondrous Achiever etc.

  • Malediktus.9250Malediktus.9250 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 2, 2018

    @Raizel.8175 said:

    @Malediktus.9250 said:
    The W6 raids is not even 2 full weeks old and the Champion of Zommoros title already seems to be very present amongst raiders. A quick look on gw2efficiency seems to confirm my suspicion.
    Champion of Zommors after 12 days: 859 von 196.362 (~72 people per day)
    Voice in the Void after 306 days: 2.715 of 196.362 (~9 people per day)
    Demon's Demise after 599 days : 6.514 of 196362 (~11 people per day)

    I remember Voice in the Void still being very rare (around 100 unlocks maybe) despite the possible exploit after weeks, so it is quite disappointing that we get this after waiting so long for a new raid and now need to wait 6+ months for something new.

    I really don't understand you. Sure, I'm with you with some stuff you write, but this? The raiding-community is already digging its own grave. The game is easily one of the, if not the most unsocial MMORPG on the market due to how it's designed - so yeah, ArenaNet should definitely design content with PUGs in mind, especially since the community keeps abusing the "KP"-system which raid-sellers already happily use to extort people who are afraid that they won't get into the content once several weeks have passed. W5 and 99/100CM already suffer from the same problem. The raiding community is already tiny. We should ArenaNet focus on shrinking it down even more? How do you want to justify that a lot of lore, several iconic encounters and regions and several top-tier cosmetics are reserved for a tiny faction of the playerbase?

    And I do not understand people like you, so I guess it goes both ways. If anything it is a shame that a lot of top tier cosmetics (eg. legendary weapons) and iconic characters (eg Balthazar) are wasted behind boring open world and story instance content.

    @maxwelgm.4315 said:
    You seem to be rating difficulty as a function of the time it takes for any one person to complete the encounter as well as the total amount of people who could complete the encounter under a certain time, but maybe there's just more people that are good around for w6, than we had for w5?

    It's also very hard to come up with mechanics that are completely original. In spite of non-raiders not knowing much, raiders by now already come into a new instance packing all their boonstrips, CCs and know what to look out for (green circles, adds, buffs and debuffs, etc.). The way other MMOs introduce difficulty is by increasing numbers and using vertical progression to hide the repetition of mechanics, and to be honest Anet is actually doing a stellar job in keeping encounters as unique as it is feasible to do.

    Finally, W5 has a lot of (supposed) RNG involved, from the walls at Desmina to most of Dhuum's stuff, whereas W6 can be played like a dance and there is actually a "perfect time" of completion given that nothing going is unpredictable. This makes it much easier for a pug group of experienced players to complete it faster for example.

    I think some RNG in encounter design is great, it keeps things from becoming stale due becoming too much of a science. Might as well let 10 bots play the raid if everything is set in stone.
    But despite that Dhuum CM will always be harder because a single person has the potential to instantly wipe the party. So far I have not been able to enjoy the Qudim fight at all, doesnt feel fun to me. I can do Dhuum tries for hours (if need to be) without getting bored, but Qadim bores me really quick

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Malediktus.9250 said:
    I think some RNG in encounter design is great, it keeps things from becoming stale due becoming too much of a science. Might as well let 10 bots play the raid if everything is set in stone.
    But despite that Dhuum CM will always be harder because a single person has the potential to instantly wipe the party. So far I have not been able to enjoy the Qudim fight at all, doesnt feel fun to me. I can do Dhuum tries for hours (if need to be) without getting bored, but Qadim bores me really quick

    That's a matter of personal preference, and besides one of diversity. Personally I think Qadim fight is very fresh and different approach at raiding. Literally every role in it is very simple, but their sheer number make the fight look utterly daunting and chaotic when you first encounter it.

  • Miellyn.6847Miellyn.6847 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 2, 2018

    This is just the result of capped equipment. People are already BiS equiped when the raid releases.
    People get better at the game, know most mechanics. Either they tune the bosses near the best possible DPS which makes it impossible for most players and creates the possibilty to break the fight with balance patches or they tune it lower and good players clear it quickly.

    A rather large part of the 'difficulty' in other games is getting the right equipment on the right roles.

  • yann.1946yann.1946 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Malediktus.9250 said:
    I think some RNG in encounter design is great, it keeps things from becoming stale due becoming too much of a science. Might as well let 10 bots play the raid if everything is set in stone.
    But despite that Dhuum CM will always be harder because a single person has the potential to instantly wipe the party. So far I have not been able to enjoy the Qudim fight at all, doesnt feel fun to me. I can do Dhuum tries for hours (if need to be) without getting bored, but Qadim bores me really quick

    That's a matter of personal preference, and besides one of diversity. Personally I think Qadim fight is very fresh and different approach at raiding. Literally every role in it is very simple, but their sheer number make the fight look utterly daunting and chaotic when you first encounter it.

    i agree, qadim is the epitome of a mechanic fight. Or just a ridiculous long preevent of you want to look at it like this.
    I really enjoy the seamingly dancing that this fight is.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 2, 2018

    @Malediktus.9250 said:
    But despite that Dhuum CM will always be harder because a single person has the potential to instantly wipe the party.

    Sure. One encounter will always be the hardest. It doesn't need to be the last encounter though (it probably shouldn't be, even, because otherwise within few wings you'd shrink raid community to only a handful of players. You personally might like it, but it really wouldn't be good at all). Without gear progression you really shouldn't expect future wings to increase in difficulty.
    (and personally i think that it's w5 that is a bit too hard, not w6 that is too easy)

    So far I have not been able to enjoy the Qudim fight at all, doesnt feel fun to me. I can do Dhuum tries for hours (if need to be) without getting bored, but Qadim bores me really quick

    For me it's the opposite. Quadim is probably the one raid encounter that i really like (even though i do not find it easy). Personal preferences, i guess.

    I especially like how dynamic that fight is, with a multitude of roles and simultaneous actions, without at the same time depending on random mechanics.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Malediktus.9250Malediktus.9250 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Malediktus.9250 said:
    I think some RNG in encounter design is great, it keeps things from becoming stale due becoming too much of a science. Might as well let 10 bots play the raid if everything is set in stone.
    But despite that Dhuum CM will always be harder because a single person has the potential to instantly wipe the party. So far I have not been able to enjoy the Qudim fight at all, doesnt feel fun to me. I can do Dhuum tries for hours (if need to be) without getting bored, but Qadim bores me really quick

    That's a matter of personal preference, and besides one of diversity. Personally I think Qadim fight is very fresh and different approach at raiding. Literally every role in it is very simple, but their sheer number make the fight look utterly daunting and chaotic when you first encounter it.

    I guess that is fair, but it will get boring quick as soon as everyone has it down to science and player error is the only reason of wipe. The fight is just missing suprises.

    Btw after now 14 days 1.067 of 196.647 players have CoZ completed. It will be interesting to see how long it takes until more people have that than VitV. Even a friend with only ~400 LI had no issue pugging the title.

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Malediktus.9250 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Malediktus.9250 said:
    I think some RNG in encounter design is great, it keeps things from becoming stale due becoming too much of a science. Might as well let 10 bots play the raid if everything is set in stone.
    But despite that Dhuum CM will always be harder because a single person has the potential to instantly wipe the party. So far I have not been able to enjoy the Qudim fight at all, doesnt feel fun to me. I can do Dhuum tries for hours (if need to be) without getting bored, but Qadim bores me really quick

    That's a matter of personal preference, and besides one of diversity. Personally I think Qadim fight is very fresh and different approach at raiding. Literally every role in it is very simple, but their sheer number make the fight look utterly daunting and chaotic when you first encounter it.

    I guess that is fair, but it will get boring quick as soon as everyone has it down to science and player error is the only reason of wipe. The fight is just missing suprises.

    Btw after now 14 days 1.067 of 196.647 players have CoZ completed. It will be interesting to see how long it takes until more people have that than VitV. Even a friend with only ~400 LI had no issue pugging the title.

    I think you underestimate the human factor. The vast majority of the groups will have a lot of surprises coming from player mistakes. Just like how to this day pugs manage to screw up Slothazor because of someone messing up a mechanic.

    As for CoZ overtaking VitV, I expect pretty soon. After playing Qadim CM for some hours I can say for certain it is not as hard as Dhuum CM. But again, that's fine. CoZ will simply be a kind of a "lower tier" prestige title for raiders.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    In short, i'm sure that most people will agree with you, that wing 6 is easier than w5. That however doesn't mean it is too easy.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    In short, i'm sure that most people will agree with you, that wing 6 is easier than w5. That however doesn't mean it is too easy.

    I agree. I'd say W4 was too easy. The way I see it, W4 offered pretty much the same the other wings did, only easier. W6 is different, which makes its difficulty OK. For me, at least.

  • @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    In short, i'm sure that most people will agree with you, that wing 6 is easier than w5. That however doesn't mean it is too easy.

    I agree. I'd say W4 was too easy. The way I see it, W4 offered pretty much the same the other wings did, only easier. W6 is different, which makes its difficulty OK. For me, at least.

    W4 is easy...until you reach the clownfiesta known as Deimos.For some reason this 1 boss is always the last one i need for my fullclear. I killed every boss this week except him. I killed Dhuum in 1 attempt with pugs, i killed Qadim on 4th attempt, but on Deimos even though most pugs do the ranged strat things still go crazy. Tank dies? GG Handkiter dies? GG druid kiter dies? pugs cant keep themselves alive without constant druid heals since stack druid goes for backup. I dont know what it is about this fight that makes people panick? All attacks are telegraphed by really big animations that play out for many seconds. While wing 6 is kinda "easy" i welcome this change over the tryhard wing 5 and its handfull of instawipe mechanics.Largos on w6 needs everyone to pull their weight during split phase so there is a risk too and Qadim has the weird jumping puzzle mechanic that might be challenging for some people

  • Talindra.4958Talindra.4958 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Actually yeah.. I dislike that jumping puzzle part of qadim

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  • Malediktus.9250Malediktus.9250 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I just wonder what is Anets vision for CMs. The W6 CMs might as well be the normal mode because the difference seems to be quite small. If this is Anets vision for CMs I would prefer they would not make CMs for raids anymore and instead use those resources on more raid wings.
    Because what is the point of CMs that only get rewarded once per account and are only like 10% harder than nm? They are basically just business gifts to raid sellers at this point.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    CM for second boss is definitely much bigger increase in difficulty than just 10%. Even if it's only an addition of a single simple mechanic noone is going to fail, it still cuts heavily into the group dps - and that fight's dps check is already pretty close even without it.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Malediktus.9250Malediktus.9250 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 7, 2018

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    CM for second boss is definitely much bigger increase in difficulty than just 10%. Even if it's only an addition of a single simple mechanic noone is going to fail, it still cuts heavily into the group dps - and that fight's dps check is already pretty close even without it.

    It took me 3 pulls for W6B1 cm and maybe 10 pulls for W6B2. As long as stacking mirages is so powerful at W6B2 the additional mechanic is just an inconvenient but negligible dps loss

    At boss 1 even if you totally ignore the extra mechanic only a few people will die, which does not matter much since the difficulty of the boss is a joke anyway

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