Condi Mirage Feedback [Merged] — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Condi Mirage Feedback [Merged]

Ovark.2514Ovark.2514 Member ✭✭✭
edited October 16, 2018 in PVP

There is absolutely no way to fight against it without taking an obscene amount of condition removal. You have confusion on you? Doesn't matter if you don't attack to avoid damage, they will kill you anyway. Got Torment on you? Doesn't matter if you don't move to avoid damage, it will kill you anyway. What's the point in even HAVING conditions if there is no way to play around them except for removal?

And you wanna know the worst thing about it?
you can't even run away. That's the worst thing.

Tagged:
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Comments

  • MyPuppy.8970MyPuppy.8970 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Eddbopkins.2630 said:
    I feel toughness needs to affect condition damage as it does with physical damage. I dont see why condis get a free pass to do full damage when ever its applied but phyical damage has many miditgations.
    Therew only one thing to do with condis and its clearing.

    No thanks. SB doesn't need another passive buffs. And conditions were designed to bypass toughness.
    But Healing Power could give something like -% condition duration, for what it's worth. That way you could invest in healing power without taking every trait/sigil/utility for cleansing, and hit like a wet noodle, killing you over time anyway.
    Something like 1000 healing power > -50% condi duration. Considering that condi specs have many ways to extend their condi durations, it would be far from OP.

  • Eddbopkins.2630Eddbopkins.2630 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @MyPuppy.8970 said:

    @Eddbopkins.2630 said:
    I feel toughness needs to affect condition damage as it does with physical damage. I dont see why condis get a free pass to do full damage when ever its applied but phyical damage has many miditgations.
    Therew only one thing to do with condis and its clearing.

    No thanks. SB doesn't need another passive buffs. And conditions were designed to bypass toughness.
    But Healing Power could give something like -% condition duration, for what it's worth. That way you could invest in healing power without taking every trait/sigil/utility for cleansing, and hit like a wet noodle, killing you over time anyway.
    Something like 1000 healing power > -50% condi duration. Considering that condi specs have many ways to extend their condi durations, it would be far from OP.

    This is intreating healing power for less condi duration.

  • ZeroTheCat.2684ZeroTheCat.2684 Member ✭✭✭

    lol what??? How are you complaining about mesmers when there are much more broken classes out there. Look at the Holo kitten! Or the warrior. Every game now 2 holos. and the team without loses. Nice balance Anet. gg.

  • @Eddbopkins.2630 said:
    I feel toughness needs to affect condition damage as it does with physical damage. I dont see why condis get a free pass to do full damage when ever its applied but phyical damage has many miditgations.

    I have long advocated that Conditions should be affected by toughness, and that Precision should provide a % of damage that ignores toughness.

    The end result is that Condition damage would now need 3 stats for maximum damage (Condi/Prec/Expertise) just like Power damage (Power/Prec/Ferocity).

    There is still a serious balance issue with Condition damage given that it maximizes with just 2 skills, and in PvP is really effective with just one stat on too many classes (Condition).

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ovark.2514 said:
    There is absolutely no way to fight against it without taking an obscene amount of condition removal. You have confusion on you? Doesn't matter if you don't attack to avoid damage, they will kill you anyway. Got Torment on you? Doesn't matter if you don't move to avoid damage, it will kill you anyway. What's the point in even HAVING conditions if there is no way to play around them except for removal?

    And you wanna know the worst thing about it?
    you can't even run away. That's the worst thing.

    I have not lost a solo battle with condi mirage in over 3 month on my guardian. Most classes with strong melee AOE and decent condi removal obliterates condi mirage. And this is not a small list of builds.

    Not every build counters condi mirage, but claiming that it is God tier is completely false.

  • jportell.2197jportell.2197 Member ✭✭✭

    @otto.5684 said:

    @Ovark.2514 said:
    There is absolutely no way to fight against it without taking an obscene amount of condition removal. You have confusion on you? Doesn't matter if you don't attack to avoid damage, they will kill you anyway. Got Torment on you? Doesn't matter if you don't move to avoid damage, it will kill you anyway. What's the point in even HAVING conditions if there is no way to play around them except for removal?

    And you wanna know the worst thing about it?
    you can't even run away. That's the worst thing.

    I have not lost a solo battle with condi mirage in over 3 month on my guardian. Most classes with strong melee AOE and decent condi removal obliterates condi mirage. And this is not a small list of builds.

    Not every build counters condi mirage, but claiming that it is God tier is completely false.

    This is so true. On my Condi mirage core guards eat me for lunch if they are played by someone with half a brain

  • Megametzler.5729Megametzler.5729 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @jportell.2197 said:

    @otto.5684 said:

    @Ovark.2514 said:
    There is absolutely no way to fight against it without taking an obscene amount of condition removal. You have confusion on you? Doesn't matter if you don't attack to avoid damage, they will kill you anyway. Got Torment on you? Doesn't matter if you don't move to avoid damage, it will kill you anyway. What's the point in even HAVING conditions if there is no way to play around them except for removal?

    And you wanna know the worst thing about it?
    you can't even run away. That's the worst thing.

    I have not lost a solo battle with condi mirage in over 3 month on my guardian. Most classes with strong melee AOE and decent condi removal obliterates condi mirage. And this is not a small list of builds.

    Not every build counters condi mirage, but claiming that it is God tier is completely false.

    This is so true. On my Condi mirage core guards eat me for lunch if they are played by someone with half a brain

    But then, mirage can always disengage. Stealth, several ports, staff2, maybe sword ambush... guard has only 2 gap closers. I do agree that especially core guard is a counter for mirage in actual fights, absolutely.

  • Bigpapasmurf.5623Bigpapasmurf.5623 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ovark.2514 said:
    There is absolutely no way to fight against it without taking an obscene amount of condition removal.

    Umm....I have next to 0 reliable cleanses that are not used for other purposes and I can typically beat them. Im not even using a meta build. :trollface:

    Red = Dead...or someone runs away. Either way it's gone.
    twitch.tv/TRMC
    Lover of Jumping puzzles, Squirrels, WvW, and Taimi
    Co-Leader of SOmething inAPpropriate {SOAP}

  • jportell.2197jportell.2197 Member ✭✭✭

    Remember when mesmer had a viable bunker build. But ANet nerfed the bunker capability on top of the damage. Peppridge farm remembers

  • Axl.8924Axl.8924 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 7, 2018

    And this here people is why we got power meta now.Condi was cried about for so long, that now condi cleanses are op and people still cry even though not many reliable condi builds in pvp.

    Here is my list of characters i got so far:

    Elementalist 80 with tempest:Talman nul
    Necromancer 80 with reaper:Zex vokar
    Mesmer level 80 no chrono yet:Klanga voosh.
    Level 80 Ranger with druid spec Jedkhan.

  • Toron.4856Toron.4856 Member ✭✭✭

    @Axl.8924 said:
    And this here people is why we got power meta now.Condi was cried about for so long, that now condi cleanses are op and people still cry even though not many reliable condi builds in pvp.

    Most classes don't have enough cleanse to fight condi mirage. The only class having more than enough cleanse to fight condi mirage is guardian and well spellbreaker if u play the tanky d/sh build but everyone plays strength ans tether atm.

    And yes we have a power meta and 9.9/10 dont want any change.

  • Axl.8924Axl.8924 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Toron.4856 said:

    @Axl.8924 said:
    And this here people is why we got power meta now.Condi was cried about for so long, that now condi cleanses are op and people still cry even though not many reliable condi builds in pvp.

    Most classes don't have enough cleanse to fight condi mirage. The only class having more than enough cleanse to fight condi mirage is guardian and well spellbreaker if u play the tanky d/sh build but everyone plays strength ans tether atm.

    And yes we have a power meta and 9.9/10 dont want any change.

    I know that eles have strong anti condi so do necros.Thieves are fairly vulnerable to condis, but condi has been over nerfed now and its not as much a presence.For the long duration low dmg condis, we need far less condi cleanses to have it viable.

    Here is my list of characters i got so far:

    Elementalist 80 with tempest:Talman nul
    Necromancer 80 with reaper:Zex vokar
    Mesmer level 80 no chrono yet:Klanga voosh.
    Level 80 Ranger with druid spec Jedkhan.

  • DeadlySynz.3471DeadlySynz.3471 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 7, 2018

    @Eddbopkins.2630 said:
    I feel toughness needs to affect condition damage as it does with physical damage. I dont see why condis get a free pass to do full damage when ever its applied but phyical damage has many miditgations.
    Therew only one thing to do with condis and its clearing.

    As much as I agree with the OP, toughness cannot affect condition damage, because it's dealt over time and can be cleared.. not something possible with physical damage. Condition damage must = that of physical damage otherwise there would be no point to using it, that has also been Anet's stance on it.

    The problem that lies with Mirage is they've been given basically everything without having to give up anything. The one and only time I pulled out the Mirage and mashed a couple of buttons, placed nearly 10 stacks of torment and confusion on an opponent.. I mean what gives? Why is that even possible?

    I mean with that much access to condition and power damage, they need to lose their ability to stealth and give them about 25% less hp than an ele.

  • jportell.2197jportell.2197 Member ✭✭✭

    @DeadlySynz.3471 said:

    @Eddbopkins.2630 said:
    I feel toughness needs to affect condition damage as it does with physical damage. I dont see why condis get a free pass to do full damage when ever its applied but phyical damage has many miditgations.
    Therew only one thing to do with condis and its clearing.

    As much as I agree with the OP, toughness cannot affect condition damage, because it's dealt over time and can be cleared.. not something possible with physical damage. Condition damage must = that of physical damage otherwise there would be no point to using it, that has also been Anet's stance on it.

    The problem that lies with Mirage is they've been given basically everything without having to give up anything. The one and only time I pulled out the Mirage and mashed a couple of buttons, placed nearly 10 stacks of torment and confusion on an opponent.. I mean what gives? Why is that even possible?

    I mean with that much access to condition and power damage, they need to lose their ability to stealth and give them about 25% less hp than an ele.

    The same way if you play holo in a team fight and roll ur face across the keyboard you get stab for 5/6 of the time. Or the fact that you cleanse 2 condis everytime u leave holo mode. And what two condis can mirages really reliably output? Oh yeah confusion and torment. Everything else in such a short duration it doesnt matter.
    I mean really the amount of hate against mirages at these levels reminds me of when people asked for an ICD on deceptive evasion. Mesmer has seen some of the most vicious nerfs of any class since launch. And any time it makes it into the meta people freak out about it.

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Toron.4856 said:

    @Axl.8924 said:
    And this here people is why we got power meta now.Condi was cried about for so long, that now condi cleanses are op and people still cry even though not many reliable condi builds in pvp.

    Most classes don't have enough cleanse to fight condi mirage. The only class having more than enough cleanse to fight condi mirage is guardian and well spellbreaker if u play the tanky d/sh build but everyone plays strength ans tether atm.

    And yes we have a power meta and 9.9/10 dont want any change.

    The following build do well agains mirage in order of effectiveness:

    Core guardian
    Holo
    SB (somewhat)
    Soul beast is not bad (as long that you have GS)
    Weaver sword is alright
    Reaper is not bad
    Scourge is also okay

    Only rev and thief have limited options against mirage. And not every class must have more than enough cleanses to fight condis. Cuz if that is the case no one will play condi builds.

    And the meta currently sucks. We do need more condi viable builds and support builds. Not every kitten build should be a pure power dps, except mirage scourge and FB. We need variety.

  • @otto.5684 said:

    @Toron.4856 said:

    @Axl.8924 said:
    And this here people is why we got power meta now.Condi was cried about for so long, that now condi cleanses are op and people still cry even though not many reliable condi builds in pvp.

    Most classes don't have enough cleanse to fight condi mirage. The only class having more than enough cleanse to fight condi mirage is guardian and well spellbreaker if u play the tanky d/sh build but everyone plays strength ans tether atm.

    And yes we have a power meta and 9.9/10 dont want any change.

    The following build do well agains mirage in order of effectiveness:

    Core guardian
    Holo
    SB (somewhat)
    Soul beast is not bad (as long that you have GS)
    Weaver sword is alright
    Reaper is not bad
    Scourge is also okay

    Only rev and thief have limited options against mirage. And not every class must have more than enough cleanses to fight condis. Cuz if that is the case no one will play condi builds.

    And the meta currently sucks. We do need more condi viable builds and support builds. Not every kitten build should be a pure power dps, except mirage scourge and FB. We need variety.

    Thief is probable best mesmer counter
    And problem is in mirage class in summ. Unlimited illusion spam and tp/invis/portals is just too much

  • Vieux P.1238Vieux P.1238 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Next patch- Condi Mirage NERFED! to death- no good.
    Day after patch. Mez players goes alternate build. The Power Mirage..yay GS 1 shot.
    Complainers post that very same day after a few matches vs power mirage-
    BOOHOO- Power Mirage is the worst thing to ever happen to this game... plz nerf it!
    Moral of this story- Mesmer Complainers will never be happy no matter how many nerfs you give mirage.

    Winter Nerf is coming!

  • idolin.2831idolin.2831 Member ✭✭✭

    @Vieux P.1238 said:
    Next patch- Condi Mirage NERFED! to death- no good.
    Day after patch. Mez players goes alternate build. The Power Mirage..yay GS 1 shot.
    Complainers post that very same day after a few matches vs power mirage-
    BOOHOO- Power Mirage is the worst thing to ever happen to this game... plz nerf it!
    Moral of this story- Mesmer Complainers will never be happy no matter how many nerfs you give mirage.

    You seem to have a problem with understanding your own class (Mesmer) - Power Mirage was JUST nerfed because of the nerf to Confounding Suggestions.

  • Vieux P.1238Vieux P.1238 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @idolin.2831 said:

    @Vieux P.1238 said:
    Next patch- Condi Mirage NERFED! to death- no good.
    Day after patch. Mez players goes alternate build. The Power Mirage..yay GS 1 shot.
    Complainers post that very same day after a few matches vs power mirage-
    BOOHOO- Power Mirage is the worst thing to ever happen to this game... plz nerf it!
    Moral of this story- Mesmer Complainers will never be happy no matter how many nerfs you give mirage.

    You seem to have a problem with understanding your own class (Mesmer) - Power Mirage was JUST nerfed because of the nerf to Confounding Suggestions.

    Do you think that was anoth? I feel soon after they nerf Condi mirage cuz of the complainers that you'l have power mirage soon after nerfed as well cuz of the crying.

    Winter Nerf is coming!

  • Answer to Mirage: Alf f4.

  • edited October 8, 2018

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    @MLGKorno.5419

    1. What evasion on Necro are you talking about? If you are talking about dodge rolls, Mesmer certainly does not have less dodge rolls than a Necromancer. If you are using the term "Evasion" loosely for general ability to mitigate damage, Mesmer certainly has plenty more ways to mitigate damage than a Necromancer. Players seriously do not need to take Elusive Mind. Mirage has plenty of disengage and anti-stun without it.
    2. Elusive Mind? Good Mirages never needed to take it to begin with. Mirage still gets 2x stun breaks including Blink and 3x Jaunts. That is still more "Get out of jail free cards" than any other class has.
    3. Jaunt CD being raised from 20s to 30s? My good bro, it is a 3x ammo ground targeted teleport skill. What other class has a 3x ammo ground targeted teleport skill that sits directly next to Blink? That's 4x ground targeted teleports, not teleports like JI or Steal that are limited in movement to where enemies are at, but 4x ground targeted teleports.
    4. Even after the nerfs, Mirage would still be graded as: DPS (S+) - Self Sustain (S+) - Mobility (S+) - Team Utility (A), whereas something like a Reaper would be graded as: DPS (S+) - Self Sustain (B+) - Mobility (C) - Team Utility (C), and something like a Firebrand would be graded as: DPS (C-) - Self Sustain (A) - Mobility (C) - Team Utility/Support (S+). ect.. ect.. ect..

    I kind of feel like, Mirage is still a problem.

    1. if a mesmer is actually hit by evasion, yes it will have less evade frames than a necro literally unless you take axe or scepter, both situational and almost never used in top tier play. In the past we've seen a couple very effective mesmer 1v1 side node builds back when the class could be considered legitimately a bit over the top. However, with all the nerfs mesmer has gotten now, it's safe to say a mesmer will melt faster than a reaper will if it doesn't just leave and give up the node. that's why after all these huge nerfs to mes, mesmer is no longer viable as a 1v1 side node role.
      Since the theme of the noob complains is about being bopped by a mesmer 1v1, it certainly sounds like L2P!

    2. LUL Please grab me a monthly or ugo vod since the time the mirage class came out a year ago where the mesmer player(s) in these vods like Kronos/Zeromis/Steel/Zorh was running anything other than elusive mind!
      Surely all these players are just bad at the game and bad at theorycrafting and not taking the other p r o traits for good mesmers only (lol)

    3. u fail to see that the person you're responding to was just saying that as part of him trying to state the truth that mesmer really isnt that strong because literally every aspect of it has seen huge nerfs in the past couple months.

    4. who are you to grade these classes? win a monthly. win a DAILY at that has at least one semi decent team in it. your statements might be looked at as less of a meme.
      as a GENERAL statement, u cant deny mirage is literally inferior to holo at fighting. noone denies mirage is still top tier viable but a lot of that is from its mobility.
      mirage will get full capped by a lot of diff builds right now. lemme remind u that the thread starter as well as the others on the bandwagon are speaking about issues fighting mirages because apparently the confusion and torment is too much and they cant find the real mesmer
      in 2018 if u cant find the real mesmer and are attacking with 10 stacks of confusion that only lasts 4s, then the problem is you as kronos already said
      TFW you try to respond to facts laid out by players like that who are known to be infinitely better than you

    Legend player starting pvp season 5

  • Ludhriq.5490Ludhriq.5490 Member
    edited October 8, 2018

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    1. Elusive Mind? Good Mirages never needed to take it to begin with. Mirage still gets 2x stun breaks including Blink and 3x Jaunts. That is still more "Get out of jail free cards" than any other class has.

    stopped reading right there cause i had to do such a big facepalm
    shows u know nothing about actual top tier pvp and have never looked at or followed the competitive scene (or whats left of it)

    posts like this and the original post are super representative of the pvp 'community' - random solo Q heroes going to forums to complain when they, for example, lose to a mirage while playing a holo, then refusing to believe the problem is their own skill

  • Axl.8924Axl.8924 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @otto.5684 said:

    @Toron.4856 said:

    @Axl.8924 said:
    And this here people is why we got power meta now.Condi was cried about for so long, that now condi cleanses are op and people still cry even though not many reliable condi builds in pvp.

    Most classes don't have enough cleanse to fight condi mirage. The only class having more than enough cleanse to fight condi mirage is guardian and well spellbreaker if u play the tanky d/sh build but everyone plays strength ans tether atm.

    And yes we have a power meta and 9.9/10 dont want any change.

    The following build do well agains mirage in order of effectiveness:

    Core guardian
    Holo
    SB (somewhat)
    Soul beast is not bad (as long that you have GS)
    Weaver sword is alright
    Reaper is not bad
    Scourge is also okay

    Only rev and thief have limited options against mirage. And not every class must have more than enough cleanses to fight condis. Cuz if that is the case no one will play condi builds.

    And the meta currently sucks. We do need more condi viable builds and support builds. Not every kitten build should be a pure power dps, except mirage scourge and FB. We need variety.

    Personally i think scourge should be condi.It used to be condi spam build but it was gutted in condi and now went pure power.

    Here is my list of characters i got so far:

    Elementalist 80 with tempest:Talman nul
    Necromancer 80 with reaper:Zex vokar
    Mesmer level 80 no chrono yet:Klanga voosh.
    Level 80 Ranger with druid spec Jedkhan.

  • MyPuppy.8970MyPuppy.8970 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Axl.8924 said:

    @otto.5684 said:

    @Toron.4856 said:

    @Axl.8924 said:
    And this here people is why we got power meta now.Condi was cried about for so long, that now condi cleanses are op and people still cry even though not many reliable condi builds in pvp.

    Most classes don't have enough cleanse to fight condi mirage. The only class having more than enough cleanse to fight condi mirage is guardian and well spellbreaker if u play the tanky d/sh build but everyone plays strength ans tether atm.

    And yes we have a power meta and 9.9/10 dont want any change.

    The following build do well agains mirage in order of effectiveness:

    Core guardian
    Holo
    SB (somewhat)
    Soul beast is not bad (as long that you have GS)
    Weaver sword is alright
    Reaper is not bad
    Scourge is also okay

    Only rev and thief have limited options against mirage. And not every class must have more than enough cleanses to fight condis. Cuz if that is the case no one will play condi builds.

    And the meta currently sucks. We do need more condi viable builds and support builds. Not every kitten build should be a pure power dps, except mirage scourge and FB. We need variety.

    Personally i think scourge should be condi.It used to be condi spam build but it was gutted in condi and now went pure power.

    It was easier to deal with when it was condi

  • Curunen.8729Curunen.8729 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lexani.6152 said:
    There were days when you meet good mesmer and you know that this player knows this game, you have respect to him and enjoy every moment fighting. Today, when you meet mesmer, you know that a player is just a random newbie who needs an easy overpowered class to play...you just ignore him and if he talks, block...

    It's called "evolution" of the game.

    Funnily enough a number of those may be the same people.

    My ears, how are you! | Kourna Jackrabbit for default Springer

  • NationalNacho.5972NationalNacho.5972 Member ✭✭
    edited October 8, 2018

    "If only forum hours translated into game experience"

    Fighting Mirage is entirely L2P if you're playing any of the common meta builds. High tier mirage has few winning matchups, the best ones are probably ele or warrior and they still takes too long to kill in a competitive game (You can get more value elsewhere more times than not).

    As a top player Id rather get a pug reaper, holo, core guard, dps firebrand, axe soulbeast - Than some random mirage that I have no clue who they are. The skill floor for all those builds is significantly lower than mirage, they will be more effective in fights assuming the skill level is similar.

    Even playing near the skill cap of the class other mid tier players (on other classes, IE: holo) will still find successful situations more frequently and with less amount of outplay required when compared to a top tier mirage player in ranked. Holo can move anywhere on the map and find value, team fights, 1v1s, in roads, outnumbering, and while outnumbered. Mirage can outnumber well (has decent burst), can 1v1 kinda for short duration assuming similar skill level. If it did not have portal it would not be taken in competitive play as is.

    Mirage stomps bads, it is similar to DH in HoT. When I play mirage in ranked, I will disrespect push everyone who I don't know 1v1 regardless of the matchup just due to how bad the players in ranked q's are. If you prove you're not a bot, ill react accordingly and play around you. In terms of effectiveness though, id much rather play necro and just farm kills with much less effort.

    Reckless

    Team U S A - Reckless

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 8, 2018

    @DeShawn Jackson.7324 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    @MLGKorno.5419

    1. What evasion on Necro are you talking about? If you are talking about dodge rolls, Mesmer certainly does not have less dodge rolls than a Necromancer. If you are using the term "Evasion" loosely for general ability to mitigate damage, Mesmer certainly has plenty more ways to mitigate damage than a Necromancer. Players seriously do not need to take Elusive Mind. Mirage has plenty of disengage and anti-stun without it.
    2. Elusive Mind? Good Mirages never needed to take it to begin with. Mirage still gets 2x stun breaks including Blink and 3x Jaunts. That is still more "Get out of jail free cards" than any other class has.
    3. Jaunt CD being raised from 20s to 30s? My good bro, it is a 3x ammo ground targeted teleport skill. What other class has a 3x ammo ground targeted teleport skill that sits directly next to Blink? That's 4x ground targeted teleports, not teleports like JI or Steal that are limited in movement to where enemies are at, but 4x ground targeted teleports.
    4. Even after the nerfs, Mirage would still be graded as: DPS (S+) - Self Sustain (S+) - Mobility (S+) - Team Utility (A), whereas something like a Reaper would be graded as: DPS (S+) - Self Sustain (B+) - Mobility (C) - Team Utility (C), and something like a Firebrand would be graded as: DPS (C-) - Self Sustain (A) - Mobility (C) - Team Utility/Support (S+). ect.. ect.. ect..

    I kind of feel like, Mirage is still a problem.

    1. if a mesmer is actually hit by evasion, yes it will have less evade frames than a necro literally unless you take axe or scepter, both situational and almost never used in top tier play. In the past we've seen a couple very effective mesmer 1v1 side node builds back when the class could be considered legitimately a bit over the top. However, with all the nerfs mesmer has gotten now, it's safe to say a mesmer will melt faster than a reaper will if it doesn't just leave and give up the node. that's why after all these huge nerfs to mes, mesmer is no longer viable as a 1v1 side node role.
      Since the theme of the noob complains is about being bopped by a mesmer 1v1, it certainly sounds like L2P!

    2. LUL Please grab me a monthly or ugo vod since the time the mirage class came out a year ago where the mesmer player(s) in these vods like Kronos/Zeromis/Steel/Zorh was running anything other than elusive mind!
      Surely all these players are just bad at the game and bad at theorycrafting and not taking the other p r o traits for good mesmers only (lol)

    3. u fail to see that the person you're responding to was just saying that as part of him trying to state the truth that mesmer really isnt that strong because literally every aspect of it has seen huge nerfs in the past couple months.

    4. who are you to grade these classes? win a monthly. win a DAILY at that has at least one semi decent team in it. your statements might be looked at as less of a meme.
      as a GENERAL statement, u cant deny mirage is literally inferior to holo at fighting. noone denies mirage is still top tier viable but a lot of that is from its mobility.
      mirage will get full capped by a lot of diff builds right now. lemme remind u that the thread starter as well as the others on the bandwagon are speaking about issues fighting mirages because apparently the confusion and torment is too much and they cant find the real mesmer
      in 2018 if u cant find the real mesmer and are attacking with 10 stacks of confusion that only lasts 4s, then the problem is you as kronos already said
      TFW you try to respond to facts laid out by players like that who are known to be infinitely better than you

    1. Mesmer not viable as a side node role? The Mesmer defense crew never ceases to amaze to me. God forbid a single class or two shows up that can finally actually 1v1 the Mirage or possibly hard counter it like Holo, and the Mesmer defense crew is like "OH MAN IT LOST ALL VIABILITY". Come on now, that's not losing viability, that's just being brought into balance with other classes.
    2. I didn't say Mesmer players were NOT running Elusive Mind, I said the good ones didn't need to. This is been stated multiple times in other threads, some of the posts made by the very Mesmer players you are referring to.
    3. He wasn't simply "stating that Mesmer wasn't that strong" he was seriously underplaying how strong it still is. You fail to see that I was only pointing that out in my post.
    4. "Who am I?" "Go win a daily AT?" Apparently you yourself don't plat ATs often within the past 3 months or so, when I was playing 2 or 3 ATs a day with various teams, and winning 1st place just about every other time we qued. In fact, in the Fortune [Fame] discord pvp section, there is a big list of .jpgs posted of our teams winning first place daily ATs.
    5. About the idea that Kronos is a better player than I am -> When he's on his Mirage sure. Go figure.
  • @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @DeShawn Jackson.7324 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    @MLGKorno.5419

    1. What evasion on Necro are you talking about? If you are talking about dodge rolls, Mesmer certainly does not have less dodge rolls than a Necromancer. If you are using the term "Evasion" loosely for general ability to mitigate damage, Mesmer certainly has plenty more ways to mitigate damage than a Necromancer. Players seriously do not need to take Elusive Mind. Mirage has plenty of disengage and anti-stun without it.
    2. Elusive Mind? Good Mirages never needed to take it to begin with. Mirage still gets 2x stun breaks including Blink and 3x Jaunts. That is still more "Get out of jail free cards" than any other class has.
    3. Jaunt CD being raised from 20s to 30s? My good bro, it is a 3x ammo ground targeted teleport skill. What other class has a 3x ammo ground targeted teleport skill that sits directly next to Blink? That's 4x ground targeted teleports, not teleports like JI or Steal that are limited in movement to where enemies are at, but 4x ground targeted teleports.
    4. Even after the nerfs, Mirage would still be graded as: DPS (S+) - Self Sustain (S+) - Mobility (S+) - Team Utility (A), whereas something like a Reaper would be graded as: DPS (S+) - Self Sustain (B+) - Mobility (C) - Team Utility (C), and something like a Firebrand would be graded as: DPS (C-) - Self Sustain (A) - Mobility (C) - Team Utility/Support (S+). ect.. ect.. ect..

    I kind of feel like, Mirage is still a problem.

    1. if a mesmer is actually hit by evasion, yes it will have less evade frames than a necro literally unless you take axe or scepter, both situational and almost never used in top tier play. In the past we've seen a couple very effective mesmer 1v1 side node builds back when the class could be considered legitimately a bit over the top. However, with all the nerfs mesmer has gotten now, it's safe to say a mesmer will melt faster than a reaper will if it doesn't just leave and give up the node. that's why after all these huge nerfs to mes, mesmer is no longer viable as a 1v1 side node role.
      Since the theme of the noob complains is about being bopped by a mesmer 1v1, it certainly sounds like L2P!

    2. LUL Please grab me a monthly or ugo vod since the time the mirage class came out a year ago where the mesmer player(s) in these vods like Kronos/Zeromis/Steel/Zorh was running anything other than elusive mind!
      Surely all these players are just bad at the game and bad at theorycrafting and not taking the other p r o traits for good mesmers only (lol)

    3. u fail to see that the person you're responding to was just saying that as part of him trying to state the truth that mesmer really isnt that strong because literally every aspect of it has seen huge nerfs in the past couple months.

    4. who are you to grade these classes? win a monthly. win a DAILY at that has at least one semi decent team in it. your statements might be looked at as less of a meme.
      as a GENERAL statement, u cant deny mirage is literally inferior to holo at fighting. noone denies mirage is still top tier viable but a lot of that is from its mobility.
      mirage will get full capped by a lot of diff builds right now. lemme remind u that the thread starter as well as the others on the bandwagon are speaking about issues fighting mirages because apparently the confusion and torment is too much and they cant find the real mesmer
      in 2018 if u cant find the real mesmer and are attacking with 10 stacks of confusion that only lasts 4s, then the problem is you as kronos already said
      TFW you try to respond to facts laid out by players like that who are known to be infinitely better than you

    1. Mesmer not viable as a side node role? The Mesmer defense crew never ceases to amaze to me. God forbid a single class or two shows up that can finally actually 1v1 the Mirage or possibly hard counter it like Holo, and the Mesmer defense crew is like "OH MAN IT LOST ALL VIABILITY". Come on now, that's not losing viability, that's just being brought into balance with other classes.
    2. I didn't say Mesmer players were NOT running Elusive Mind, I said the good ones didn't need to. This is been stated multiple times in other threads, some of the posts made by the very Mesmer players you are referring to.
    3. He wasn't simply "stating that Mesmer wasn't that strong" he was seriously underplaying how strong it still is. You fail to see that I was only pointing that out in my post.
    4. "Who am I?" "Go win a daily AT?" Apparently you yourself don't plat ATs often within the past 3 months or so, when I was playing 2 or 3 ATs a day with various teams, and winning 1st place just about every other time we qued.
    5. About the idea that Kronos is a better player than I am -> When he's on his Mirage sure. Go figure.

    Kronos is way better than you at any class even if he barely plays the game

    Legend player starting pvp season 5

  • Megametzler.5729Megametzler.5729 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Is this still a rational discussion or a "survival of the fittest" kind of "I'm better, so I must be right"-thing?

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @DeShawn Jackson.7324 You're probably right when it comes to every class, except Ranger.

  • Abazigal.3679Abazigal.3679 Member ✭✭✭

    I could tell condi mirage would be " annoying " months ago ( not OP to me). Fact is, again bringing my same argument, it's the same issue than scourge, reaper, and eventually that kitten condi guard i'm seeing lately.

    These builds force you usually to fight off point and it's still fairly easy to make a mistake, die, and lead to snowball effect. I mean, i like those matchs since they are usually strategic, but it gets less fun when you notice you end up winning 500-450 to a team that didn't do much regarding capping and strategy, only thanks to their builds..

  • Does it even exist top tier scene in gw2? The only top tier I remember was when ESL was up. Anyway it's funny how this 'top tier' players defend the current state of mirage and guess what, they are 'top tier' playing mirage.

  • Mbelch.9028Mbelch.9028 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Finally a thread with some action in it! Let's get a player rankings going in here.

  • Daishi.6027Daishi.6027 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 20, 2018

    Lol ppl who can't dodge. Admittedly unlike power mirage, condi has a bit to much output and has the option to spec into a much safer ammy. So suggested changes:

    Revert Jaunt and vigor nerfs.

    Maim of the disillusioned - Now only affects Mind Wrack and Cry of Frustration.

    Ineptitude - No longer confuse on blind. Interrupts cause confusion. Successfully evading an attack causes blind and confusion (similar to it's original design)

    This directly de-weaponizes blinds and reduces the over all output.

    Condi Mirage is by far NOT the worst thing thing to happen. Anything with a large amount of surviviability that can sustain/delay 2v1 on point easily by rotating cooldowns is the most unhealthy thing for conquest.

  • Zawn.9647Zawn.9647 Member ✭✭✭

    @Daishi.6027 said:
    Lol ppl who can't doge. Admittedly unlike power mirage, condi has a bit to much output and has the option to spec into a much safer ammy. So suggested changes:

    Revert Jaunt and vigor nerfs.

    Maim of the disillusioned - Now only affects Mind Wrack and Cry of Frustration.

    Ineptitude - No longer confuse on blind. Interrupts cause confusion. Successfully evading an attack causes blind and confusion (similar to it's original design)

    This directly de-weaponizes blinds and reduces the over all output.

    Condi Mirage is by far NOT the worst thing thing to happen. Anything with a large amount of surviviability that can sustain/delay 2v1 on point easily by rotating cooldowns is the most unhealthy thing for conquest.

    You mean mirage then? :)

  • @Curunen.8729 said:

    @Lexani.6152 said:
    There were days when you meet good mesmer and you know that this player knows this game, you have respect to him and enjoy every moment fighting. Today, when you meet mesmer, you know that a player is just a random newbie who needs an easy overpowered class to play...you just ignore him and if he talks, block...

    It's called "evolution" of the game.

    Funnily enough a number of those may be the same people.

    Good player enjoys competitive and challenging game play, I mean he enjoys when you need to have skill to master a class, not just mindlessly spam button/s. I can assure you, majority of players who played mesmer before, they don't play it anymore. I have been playing thief as main for like 3 years now, I can't stand deadeye because it doesn't require skill at all and is kinda overpowered. If you are a roamer in wvw you should know what I am talking about.

    WvW: WSR only good when they focus commander and in gangs. Gandara, cloud of pugs without organization.

  • Curunen.8729Curunen.8729 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 9, 2018

    @Lexani.6152 said:

    @Curunen.8729 said:

    @Lexani.6152 said:
    There were days when you meet good mesmer and you know that this player knows this game, you have respect to him and enjoy every moment fighting. Today, when you meet mesmer, you know that a player is just a random newbie who needs an easy overpowered class to play...you just ignore him and if he talks, block...

    It's called "evolution" of the game.

    Funnily enough a number of those may be the same people.

    Good player enjoys competitive and challenging game play, I mean he enjoys when you need to have skill to master a class, not just mindlessly spam button/s. I can assure you, majority of players who played mesmer before, they don't play it anymore. I have been playing thief as main for like 3 years now, I can't stand deadeye because it doesn't require skill at all and is kinda overpowered. If you are a roamer in wvw you should know what I am talking about.

    Oh I know. I used to be die hard power shatter before hot and was even slightly "elitist" about it (ie none of that mantra kitten - pure positioning and timing to land burst. I never liked mantra of distraction tbh) having my fair share of awesome performances, solo and team, as well as awful failures.

    But there comes a point when one has just got to accept and play with what we've got - ie casual fun combat, where the audio/visual effects are the main reason for playing. This is the reason I quit pvp some time ago and just casually play wvw now - because there's no competitive stress in a game environment that is never going to be truly competitive. Also because hotjoin servers dried up so no possibility for casual skirmish there. For the record the only reason I frequent this forum is that the wvw forum doesn't have any decent balance discussion for "player vs player" combat interactions (or entertainment from whining), and profession specific forums are most of the time discussing raid balance which I'm not interested in.

    What's funny is that there may be situations where the same people may encounter each other years later with different characters, different names, different classes and with totally different judgements, eg possible of looking down one's nose - whereas maybe there was a different interaction in the past such as respect from good "skilled" fights - there's absolutely no way of knowing unless you recognise a name, which I don't know about you but I only remember a handful of names. Even if a lot have left, I'd guess there are still enough people for this to take place.

    I have no guilt over enjoying mirage because I don't care anymore as to what's strong or not - I play what is aurally/visually satisfying and thematically interesting. Eg I don't like chrono anymore simply because of the alacrity sound effect change - so even if they had a godlike build I wouldn't play it. Preferring hybrid in general because it gives some satisfaction of direct burst and DoT without going to one or the other extreme.

    My ears, how are you! | Kourna Jackrabbit for default Springer

  • Daishi.6027Daishi.6027 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 9, 2018

    @Zawn.9647 said:

    @Daishi.6027 said:
    Lol ppl who can't doge. Admittedly unlike power mirage, condi has a bit to much output and has the option to spec into a much safer ammy. So suggested changes:

    Revert Jaunt and vigor nerfs.

    Maim of the disillusioned - Now only affects Mind Wrack and Cry of Frustration.

    Ineptitude - No longer confuse on blind. Interrupts cause confusion. Successfully evading an attack causes blind and confusion (similar to it's original design)

    This directly de-weaponizes blinds and reduces the over all output.

    Condi Mirage is by far NOT the worst thing thing to happen. Anything with a large amount of surviviability that can sustain/delay 2v1 on point easily by rotating cooldowns is the most unhealthy thing for conquest.

    You mean mirage then? :)

    lol ur cute.

    I mean like Season 1 Chrono bunk, or very old metas like when teams would take 4 cele eles.

  • Being outplayed by good warrior feels great. Being outkited by interrupt daredevil is sometimes fun. Hell even holosmith doesn't look unfair comparing condi mesmer iFourManU meme of this game.
    Somebody in Anet is totally biased towards mesmers, no matter how many times I come back there is no as frustrating class to fights as mesmers, worst low risk high reward class I ever seen anywhere. Think it'd be safe to say that very few pay-to-win mmos have it better, yet all we gonna see soon is fake band-aids while what we need is ruthless bisection of said class.

  • Lincolnbeard.1735Lincolnbeard.1735 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 12, 2018

    @Daishi.6027 said:
    Lol ppl who can't doge. Admittedly unlike power mirage, condi has a bit to much output and has the option to spec into a much safer ammy. So suggested changes:

    Revert Jaunt and vigor nerfs.

    Maim of the disillusioned - Now only affects Mind Wrack and Cry of Frustration.

    Ineptitude - No longer confuse on blind. Interrupts cause confusion. Successfully evading an attack causes blind and confusion (similar to it's original design)

    This directly de-weaponizes blinds and reduces the over all output.

    Condi Mirage is by far NOT the worst thing thing to happen. Anything with a large amount of surviviability that can sustain/delay 2v1 on point easily by rotating cooldowns is the most unhealthy thing for conquest.

    That won't do the trick, the QQ will never stop.

    Tbh I don't even run ineptitude and blinding dissipation, I use evasive barrier and deceptive evasion instead, and while you lose a lot of burst, in the long run you have more sustain dps.
    The original ineptitude was kind of bad with the 10sec ICD.

    Mirage needs to have IH merged with a minor to make balance easier, for example Imaginary Axes is fine without IH but op with it.

    But I don't get the OP, is he complaining about condi burst, condi sustain or both? You can nerf one of those, fine, but if you nerf both you'll kill the spec.

    The degenerate

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