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Do raids need easy/normal/hard difficulty mode? [merged]


Lonami.2987

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World of Warcraft already solved this problem years go...

LFR - pugs can raid, its very easy and doesnt rewards are less desirableNormal - as the name impliesHeroic - a little more difficult with a few tweaks in the bosses skills - higher rewardMythic - very difficult, only hardcore players try it and the rewards are pretty strong

why cant we have something like this? we dont need those 4 'levels' but 3 would be awesome...

the one we have could be the "normal"one easier doable by pugs and another one for hardcore ppl

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@"Zawn.9647" said:World of Warcraft already solved this problem years go...

LFR - pugs can raid, its very easy and doesnt rewards are less desirableNormal - as the name impliesHeroic - a little more difficult with a few tweaks in the bosses skills - higher rewardMythic - very difficult, only hardcore players try it and the rewards are pretty strong

why cant we have something like this? we dont need those 4 'levels' but 3 would be awesome...

the one we have could be the "normal"one easier doable by pugs and another one for hardcore ppl

LFR lumps players together and removes all skill. It also makes sure that x amount of tanks and x amount of healers are present. Finally it gives a stacking buff up to 40% to make even the most retarded groups able to succeed.

Now let's take that apart for GW2:

A.) we need to now some how decide which classes and builds and on what basis these classes and builds get added to raids (or we dumb down the content so much that literally any combination of classes should be able to succeed. That would be possible I guess)B.) rewards would have to be reduced significantly. Way more than in WoW since WoW continually devalues gear. Thus we would have to either not offer gear, or just very low grade gear like raresC.) difficulty would have to be reduced significantly so that half the people participating could go afk and success would still be possible with the other half just auto attacking.

Come to think of it, there is content like this in the game already, it's called OPEN WORLD EVENTS AND BOSSES.

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@Cyninja.2954 said:

@"Zawn.9647" said:World of Warcraft already solved this problem years go...

LFR - pugs can raid, its very easy and doesnt rewards are less desirableNormal - as the name impliesHeroic - a little more difficult with a few tweaks in the bosses skills - higher rewardMythic - very difficult, only hardcore players try it and the rewards are pretty strong

why cant we have something like this? we dont need those 4 'levels' but 3 would be awesome...

the one we have could be the "normal"one easier doable by pugs and another one for hardcore ppl

LFR lumps players together and removes all skill. It also makes sure that x amount of tanks and x amount of healers are present. Finally it gives a stacking buff up to 40% to make even the most kitten groups able to succeed.

Now let's take that apart for GW2:

A.) we need to now some how decide which classes and builds and on what basis these classes and builds get added to raids (or we dumb down the content so much that literally any combination of classes should be able to succeed. That would be possible I guess)B.) rewards would have to be reduced significantly. Way more than in WoW since WoW continually devalues gear. Thus we would have to either not offer gear, or just very low grade gear like raresC.) difficulty would have to be reduced significantly so that half the people participating could go afk and success would still be possible with the other half just auto attacking.

Come to think of it, there is content like this in the game already, it's called OPEN WORLD EVENTS AND BOSSES.

A) Don’t do this, no reason for the automatic set up blah, it’s not needed.

B) no Legendary Armor items, LI etc. Exotics and rares would be fine for this.

C) difficulty, yes obviously reduced, they could introduce a stacking buff for this as well upon each wipe. Some players may never see it, some people might have max stacks.

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I watched the Guild Chat stream today and it is kinda sad that all the work that goes into raids is seen by a very small amount of players.Things are not fine as they are. This should have been addressed over a year ago.

I dont think GW2 needs easy/hard modes but instead needs a simple training mode where people can experience raid mechanics before they actually start raiding.Most insta death mechanics should be replaced by a 5 second stun and a giant indicator above the players head (think Mad king head). All damage should be reduced to about 10-20% with no enrage timer and the boss health could be reduced by half.Rewards in this mode should be minor - up to rare gear. It should be made available for new wings a few weeks down the line.

It would solve most of the problems - bringing more players to raid, teaching them mechanics and also let those who really do not want to raid experience the content.

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@SonicTHI.3217 said:I watched the Guild Chat stream today and it is kinda sad that all the work that goes into raids is seen by a very small amount of players.Things are not fine as they are. This should have been addressed over a year ago.

I dont think GW2 needs easy/hard modes but instead needs a simple training mode where people can experience raid mechanics before they actually start raiding.Most insta death mechanics should be replaced by a 5 second stun and a giant indicator above the players head (think Mad king head). All damage should be reduced to about 10-20% with no enrage timer and the boss health could be reduced by half.Rewards in this mode should be minor - up to rare gear. It should be made available for new wings a few weeks down the line.

It would solve most of the problems - bringing more players to raid, teaching them mechanics and also let those who really do not want to raid experience the content.

Learning the mechanics is not a problem. They are slow, usually have clear tells and for the few cases when they don't ANet has added a huge screen overlay to remind you something is going on. The problem, the thing that makes you need training, is playing your role under pressure. Removing the pressure from mechanics, damage output and damage taken is not going to prepare anyone for anything. And neither is it going to make them experience anything. The raid experience is very much defined by this pressure.

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@"Tails.9372" said:

B) no Legendary Armor items, LI etc. Exotics and rares would be fine for this.If you want it to end up as dead content that is, otherwise reduced rewards like how it is for fractals would be the way to go.

Wait what? I thought people were here to just ask for story/easy mode so they could experience the story and train for raids in a more casual setting. You now also want the easy version to give you all the shinies for less effort?!?!?!? Nobody could have ever seen this coming!!!1!eleven

On a more serious note, you should look up the explanation of "philosophy of fairness" which basically tells in excellent detail that it is only normal that the more work you do (or the harder you work) the more you should be rewarded. And the less you do the less you should be rewarded. This is actually such a basic logical thing that i'm a bit aghast that people still think easy mode version should give everything normal mode does.

I mean back in high school when you did 90% of the work in a group project and the other person(s) did only 10% i'm pretty sure you would have felt a bit cheated if they just got the same grade as you for basically all the work that you did alone.

I'll just repeat this again for everyone to read, not just for you alone, (ad nauseam) that most players who are anti story/easy mode are only against it because it would either:A: Take away resources to make raids which means it would take even longer to release. If they can release raids at the same pace AND also add story/easy mode most of the players here would not object because the wait time for new content would not be increased.B: As i explained earlier the story/easy mode version should not give the rewards normal mode does (main issues being LI and Legendary Armor). There is some debate over if story/easy mode raids should give magnetite shards or ascended armor/weapons which i won't dive into right now but again it is at least fair that story/easy mode has reduced main rewards because you literally have to put in less effort then normal mode. (And then we get back to the "philosophy of fairness").

(This next bit is directed to everyone equally, not you personally Tails but feel free to reply)If story/easy mode raids ends up being "hurr durr ded cantent" because it wouldn't give the max rewards like normal mode does then you've basically been making a very poor argument in case of it's implementation. Because how on earth are you going to justify people getting everything like normal raiders have been getting for the past few years but for half the effort. And don't start with things like "yeah but a full clear on story/easy mode would only give 1 LI per wing and not per boss" because the only thing that does is time-gate it more. It doesn't make the effort of killing the bosses and doing the events any harder or more challenging. Time-gating =/= more challenge.

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@Digit.1823 said:

@"Tails.9372" said:

B) no Legendary Armor items, LI etc. Exotics and rares would be fine for this.If you want it to end up as dead content that is, otherwise reduced rewards like how it is for fractals would be the way to go.

Wait what? I thought people were here to just ask for story/easy mode so they could experience the story and train for raids in a more casual setting. You now also want the easy version to give you all the shinies for less effort?!?!?!? Nobody could have ever seen this coming!!!1!eleven

On a more serious note, you should look up the explanation of "philosophy of fairness" which basically tells in excellent detail that it is only normal that the more work you do (or the harder you work) the more you should be rewarded. And the less you do the less you should be rewarded. This is actually such a basic logical thing that i'm a bit aghast that people still think easy mode version should give everything normal mode does.

I mean back in high school when you did 90% of the work in a group project and the other person(s) did only 10% i'm pretty sure you would have felt a bit cheated if they just got the same grade as you for basically all the work that you did alone.

I'll just repeat this again for everyone to read, not just for you alone, (ad nauseam) that most players who are anti story/easy mode are only against it because it would either:A: Take away resources to make raids which means it would take even longer to release. If they can release raids at the same pace AND also add story/easy mode most of the players here would not object because the wait time for new content would not be increased.B: As i explained earlier the story/easy mode version should not give the rewards normal mode does (main issues being LI and Legendary Armor). There is some debate over if story/easy mode raids should give magnetite shards or ascended armor/weapons which i won't dive into right now but again it is at least fair that story/easy mode has reduced
main
rewards because you literally have to put in less effort then normal mode. (And then we get back to the "philosophy of fairness").

(This next bit is directed to everyone equally, not you personally Tails but feel free to reply)If story/easy mode raids ends up being "hurr durr ded cantent" because it wouldn't give the max rewards like normal mode does then you've basically been making a very poor argument in case of it's implementation. Because how on earth are you going to justify people getting everything like normal raiders have been getting for the past few years but for half the effort. And don't start with things like "yeah but a full clear on story/easy mode would only give 1 LI per wing and not per boss" because the only thing that does is time-gate it more. It doesn't make the effort of killing the bosses and doing the events any harder or more challenging. Time-gating =/= more challenge.

I agree with many points of your post. I wouldn’t want a story mode to chew up additional resources and make the raids take longer to develop. That being said we have two more LW releases which contain Legendary Weapons, which potentially could mean freed up resources after LW season 4 is finished.

In terms of rewards for a story mode. It shouldn’t contain any LI, mag shards, Armor collection stuff either. I’m thinking rewards skin to T2 fractals orcsomething of that nature. What should be in there is achievements though. The book collections, notes etc. maybe 1ap per boss encounter on story mode.

If this happen, I suspect a large portion of the complaints would disappear. There would still be the person would say, I want Legendary Armor from easy mode.

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@"Digit.1823" said:On a more serious note, you should look up the explanation of "philosophy of fairness" which basically tells in excellent detail that it is only normal that the more work you do (or the harder you work) the more you should be rewarded. And the less you do the less you should be rewarded. This is actually such a basic logical thing that i'm a bit aghast that people still think easy mode version should give everything normal mode does.Doesn't make much sense to bring up this point as a response to a post which stated that easier difficulties should get fewer rewards.

@"Digit.1823" said:And don't start with things like "yeah but a full clear on story/easy mode would only give 1 LI per wing and not per boss" because the only thing that does is time-gate it more. It doesn't make the effort of killing the bosses and doing the events any harder or more challenging. Time-gating =/= more challenge.So what? Legendary items are participation rewards, nothing more. One can just as well run some extra rounds in Istan and buy the kills. I start buying the "people should adhere to higher standards" argument once the raid community actively pressures A-Net to do something against raid sellers. At least this way people would actually be incentivised to play the related content. It's not like the stuff where you can get help from other players amounts to anything anyways. If it's "prestige" you're after you should ask A-Net for some high difficulty solo content.

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@Tails.9372 said:

@"Digit.1823" said:And don't start with things like "yeah but a full clear on story/easy mode would only give 1 LI per wing and not per boss" because the only thing that does is time-gate it more. It doesn't make the effort of killing the bosses and doing the events any harder or more challenging. Time-gating =/= more challenge.So what? Legendary items are participation rewards, nothing more. One can just as well run some extra rounds in Istan and buy the kills. I start buying the "people should adhere to higher standards" argument once the raid community actively pressures A-Net to do something against raid sellers. At least this way people would actually be incentivised to play the related content. It's not like the stuff where you can get help from other players amounts to anything anyways. If it's "prestige" you're after you should ask A-Net for some high difficulty solo content.

Well, no. First off, you can't buy something nobody is selling. Being able to buy the kills means there are groups of extremely skilled players who can provide this service for you. By farming Istan and giving them lots of gold in exchange for the kills you're doing exactly that - rewarding higher skill and higher effort with a larger reward.

Second, the high-difficulty solo content will always be easier than the high difficulty group content. Because the latter can include everything the former has, plus it has the added difficulty of needing other players to their parts equally well. In a solo fight you can never fail if you do your part flawlessly. In a group one you can. Even the hardest solo fights we saw not that long ago don't really compare to some normal mode raid bosses. Let alone to the truly challenging CMs. They'll never be as prestigious as the raid ones.

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@Feanor.2358 said:Second, the high-difficulty solo content will always be easier than the high difficulty group content.Only when individual difficulty is the same (which almost never happens). On the other hand, if the overall difficulty level is similar, the solo content would be much more individually difficult.

Yes, group content has the added difficulty of requiring coordination, but it balances it by making the individual difficulty much lower (sometimes low enough that some players might not even be there). As you said, in a solo fight you can never fail if you do your part flawlessly. In a group one you can. What you forgot to say is that in a solo fight if you don't do your part well, you will not succeed, but in a group one you still can. That you can't get carried for solo challenging content, but you very much can for group one. That's why the individual content is always going to be more prestigious, because it is the only content that really shows how skilled you are.

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@Astralporing.1957 said:

@"Feanor.2358" said:Second, the high-difficulty solo content will always be easier than the high difficulty group content.Only when individual difficulty is the same (which almost never happens). On the other hand, if the overall difficulty level is similar, the solo content would be much more
individually
difficult.

Yes, group content has the added difficulty of requiring coordination, but it balances it by making the individual difficulty much lower (sometimes low enough that some players might not even be there). As you said, in a solo fight you can never fail if you do your part flawlessly. In a group one you can. What you forgot to say is that in a solo fight if you don't do your part well, you will not succeed, but in a group one you still can. That you can't get carried for solo challenging content, but you very much can for group one. That's why the individual content is always going to be more prestigious, because it is the only content that really shows how skilled
you
are.

There's nothing stopping you from making an encounter requiring the exact same flawlessness from every player, achieving the same individual challenge as the most challenging solo content possible and much, MUCH higher difficulty. In practice you leave some leeway in either case, but it still holds true that the most difficult solo fights in the game are far easier than most raid encounters. I can back this up statistically:

Kingslayer title unlocks: 6.1%The Blazing Light title unlocks: 15.4%Voice in the Void title unlocks: 1.4%

Note that while TBL has been around for a long time, Kingslayer was added much later than VitV and still is unlocked by about 4 times as many players. Obviously it requires less skill and owning it carries less prestige.

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@"Feanor.2358" said:Obviously it requires less skill and owning it carries less prestige.

The problem with hard single player encounters is they can be more easily beaten by weird builds, using obscure gear/food/utilities and so on. Like life leeching making the fight with Liadri very easy. In group content it's much harder to find such loopholes and even if they do exist, they usually affect only parts of the fight. If the single player hard content was constantly updated, and require players to beat the content again every time it was updated then it would probably be as hard (or harder) than group content.

but it still holds true that the most difficult solo fights in the game are far easier than most raid encounters

I wouldn't say that Liadri and Turai are far easier than most raid encounters. You probably meant, the hardest solo fights are easier than the hardest (CM) raid encounters, because there are lots of Raid encounters with much higher completion than Liadri and/or Turai.

Beyond the Vale is at 30%Avenger of the Pact, one of the harder bosses is at 16%, same percentage as LiadriNormal difficulty Dhuum: What's Death May Never Die is at 6.2% same as TuraiAnd so on.

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Huh, I actually expected lower numbers on the raid bosses. They do feel harder than Liadri and Turai, at least the endbosses of the wings. I guess that's a bias caused by the average level of the groups I play in. But OK, they're still easier than the hard raid CMs. Demon's Demise is ~3% as well.

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Vale Guardian: 30.524%Escort: 27.420%Gorseval: 24.787%Cairn: 22.447%Overseer: 21.763%Samarog: 20.087%Sabetha: 19.628%Slothasor: 18.286%Keep Construct: 16.852%Matthias: 15.943%Liadri: 15.418%Nightmare Fractal CM: 14.442%Deimos: 14.025%Xera: 13.389%Soulless Horror: 8.940%Shattered Observatory CM: 8.329%Cairn CM: 7.027%Dhuum: 6.180%Turai Ossa: 6.122%Overseer CM: 5.933%Shattered Observatory LNHB: 4.494%Samarog CM: 4.299%Deimos CM: 3.967%Soulless Horror CM: 3.595%Dhuum CM: 1.620%

Liadri was beaten by as many people that beat Matthias, while the majority of Raid bosses were beaten more times.Turai Ossa has a similar kill ratio to normal mode Dhuum, slightly less. I think the difficulty of both these bosses is very high (and fine as it is)It's interesting to see the Fractal CM rates, I included them so we have hardest 10-man content, hardest 5-man content and hardest solo content on the list.Plus a good way to see which titles have the most "prestige" :dizzy:

Edit: Latest wing current stats:Amalgamate: 5.669%Largos: 4.137%Qadim: 2.755%Amalgamate CM: 1.906%Largos CM: 1.554%Qadim CM: 0.996%

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@"maddoctor.2738" said:Vale Guardian: 30.524%Escort: 27.420%Gorseval: 24.787%Cairn: 22.447%Overseer: 21.763%Samarog: 20.087%Sabetha: 19.628%Slothasor: 18.286%Keep Construct: 16.852%Matthias: 15.943%Liadri: 15.418%Nightmare Fractal CM: 14.442%Deimos: 14.025%Xera: 13.389%Soulless Horror: 8.940%Shattered Observatory CM: 8.329%Cairn CM: 7.027%Dhuum: 6.180%Turai Ossa: 6.122%Overseer CM: 5.933%Shattered Observatory LNHB: 4.494%Samarog CM: 4.299%Deimos CM: 3.967%Soulless Horror CM: 3.595%Dhuum CM: 1.620%

Liadri was beaten by as many people that beat Matthias, while the majority of Raid bosses were beaten more times.Turai Ossa has a similar kill ratio to normal mode Dhuum, slightly less. I think the difficulty of both these bosses is very high (and fine as it is)It's interesting to see the Fractal CM rates, I included them so we have hardest 10-man content, hardest 5-man content and hardest solo content on the list.Plus a good way to see which titles have the most "prestige" :dizzy:

Edit: Latest wing current stats:Amalgamate: 5.669%Largos: 4.137%Qadim: 2.755%Amalgamate CM: 1.906%Largos CM: 1.554%Qadim CM: 0.996%

Voice in the Void, obviously. At least it will be in just a few months when Champion of Zommoros overtakes it in unlocks.

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@"Feanor.2358" said:There's nothing stopping you from making an encounter requiring the exact same flawlessness from every player, achieving the same individual challenge as the most challenging solo content possible and much, MUCH higher difficulty.In theory, yes. In practice such content would be too difficult for even most of the hardcore players, due to the multiplicative effect of each individual difficulty on the group one. That's why you always leave a safety margin. And it's not some leeway - it's a lot (enough that even in the hardest group content so far you can carry through at least one player that has no skill and no clue whatsoever).

but it still holds true that the most difficult solo fights in the game are far easier than most raid encounters. I can back this up statistically:

Kingslayer title unlocks: 6.1%The Blazing Light title unlocks: 15.4%Voice in the Void title unlocks: 1.4%

Note that while TBL has been around for a long time, Kingslayer was added much later than VitV and still is unlocked by about 4 times as many players. Obviously it requires less skill and owning it carries less prestige.

Less individual skill? Not really. Let's be honest, no raid encounter requires more skill from individuals than Liadri did. Yes, the encounters' overall difficulty is greater, but in actuality in most cases it requires far less out of each individual player (and in no case requires more). The very fact that even VitV can be bought proves that.

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@Astralporing.1957 said:Less individual skill? Not really. Let's be honest, no raid encounter requires more skill from individuals than Liadri did. Yes, the encounters' overall difficulty is greater, but in actuality in most cases it requires far less out of each individual player (and in no case requires more). The very fact that even VitV can be bought proves that.

I feel that's a bit rose tinted. Some roles/classes defintely have a higher burden of execution than others and can be seen as requiring more individual skill per certain encounters than liadri.

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@Astralporing.1957 said:

@"Feanor.2358" said:There's nothing stopping you from making an encounter requiring the exact same flawlessness from every player, achieving the same individual challenge as the most challenging solo content possible and much, MUCH higher difficulty.In theory, yes. In practice such content would be too difficult for even most of the hardcore players, due to the multiplicative effect of each individual difficulty on the group one. That's why you always leave a safety margin. And it's not some leeway - it's a lot (enough that even in the hardest group content so far you can carry through at least one player that has no skill and no clue whatsoever).

but it still holds true that the most difficult solo fights in the game are far easier than most raid encounters. I can back this up statistically:

title unlocks: 6.1%
title unlocks: 15.4%
title unlocks: 1.4%

Note that while TBL has been around for a long time, Kingslayer was added much later than VitV and still is unlocked by about 4
times
as many players. Obviously it requires less skill and owning it carries less prestige.

Less
individual
skill? Not really. Let's be honest, no raid encounter requires more skill from individuals than Liadri did. Yes, the encounters' overall difficulty is greater, but in actuality in most cases it requires far less out of each individual player (and in no case requires more). The very fact that even VitV can be bought proves that.

I do not agree. Being able to buy it is irrelevant. The only reason TBL and Kingslayer can't be bought is that you can't have another character carry you through them, not their difficulty. I can say for certain both Samarog and Dhuum CMs have been far harder for me than either Liadri or Turai. That's why I wear VitV, not one of the solo titles which I also have. Objectively speaking, the solo fights didn't offer that great of a challenge. They only had a single important mechanic to learn.

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@Feanor.2358 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:There's nothing stopping you from making an encounter requiring the exact same flawlessness from every player, achieving the same individual challenge as the most challenging solo content possible and much, MUCH higher difficulty.In theory, yes. In practice such content would be too difficult for even most of the hardcore players, due to the multiplicative effect of each individual difficulty on the group one. That's why you always leave a safety margin. And it's not some leeway - it's a lot (enough that even in the hardest group content so far you can carry through at least one player that has no skill and no clue whatsoever).

but it still holds true that the most difficult solo fights in the game are far easier than most raid encounters. I can back this up statistically:

title unlocks: 6.1%
title unlocks: 15.4%
title unlocks: 1.4%

Note that while TBL has been around for a long time, Kingslayer was added much later than VitV and still is unlocked by about 4
times
as many players. Obviously it requires less skill and owning it carries less prestige.

Less
individual
skill? Not really. Let's be honest, no raid encounter requires more skill from individuals than Liadri did. Yes, the encounters' overall difficulty is greater, but in actuality in most cases it requires far less out of each individual player (and in no case requires more). The very fact that even VitV can be bought proves that.

I do not agree. Being able to buy it is irrelevant. The only reason TBL and Kingslayer can't be bought is that you can't have another character carry you through them, not their difficulty. I can say for certain both Samarog and Dhuum CMs have been far harder for me than either Liadri or Turai. That's why I wear VitV, not one of the solo titles which I also have. Objectively speaking, the solo fights didn't offer that great of a challenge. They only had a single important mechanic to learn.

For the normal fights I agree that raid cms (and even most nm) are harder than Liadri&Turai, but 8-orbs Liadri is the hardest challenge I ever had in gw2.

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@Feanor.2358 said:By farming Istan and giving them lots of gold in exchange for the kills you're doing exactly that - rewarding higher skill and higher effort with a larger reward.Then in this case the gold they got is the reward for the effort these players put in but this has nothing to do with the armor the other guy received as it doesn't reflect his "efforts" meaning that wearing it proves nothing whtch makes it unfitting as a status symbol for personal "skills and accomplishments".

@Feanor.2358 said:Even the hardest solo fights we saw not that long ago don't really compare to some normal mode raid bosses.The game mostly focuses on multiplayer content so of course there is not much to compare but just because they don't focus on releasing difficult solo content doesn't mean they can't.

@Feanor.2358 said:They'll never be as prestigious as the raid ones.They arguably already are, I can just accuse someone of having bought the raid boss kill and he would have no way of proving me wrong based on the title alone.

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@Zaraki.5784 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:There's nothing stopping you from making an encounter requiring the exact same flawlessness from every player, achieving the same individual challenge as the most challenging solo content possible and much, MUCH higher difficulty.In theory, yes. In practice such content would be too difficult for even most of the hardcore players, due to the multiplicative effect of each individual difficulty on the group one. That's why you always leave a safety margin. And it's not some leeway - it's a lot (enough that even in the hardest group content so far you can carry through at least one player that has no skill and no clue whatsoever).

but it still holds true that the most difficult solo fights in the game are far easier than most raid encounters. I can back this up statistically:

title unlocks: 6.1%
title unlocks: 15.4%
title unlocks: 1.4%

Note that while TBL has been around for a long time, Kingslayer was added much later than VitV and still is unlocked by about 4
times
as many players. Obviously it requires less skill and owning it carries less prestige.

Less
individual
skill? Not really. Let's be honest, no raid encounter requires more skill from individuals than Liadri did. Yes, the encounters' overall difficulty is greater, but in actuality in most cases it requires far less out of each individual player (and in no case requires more). The very fact that even VitV can be bought proves that.

I do not agree. Being able to buy it is irrelevant. The only reason TBL and Kingslayer can't be bought is that you can't have another character carry you through them, not their difficulty. I can say for certain both Samarog and Dhuum CMs have been far harder for me than either Liadri or Turai. That's why I wear VitV, not one of the solo titles which I also have. Objectively speaking, the solo fights didn't offer that great of a challenge. They only had a single important mechanic to learn.

For the normal fights I agree that raid cms (and even most nm) are harder than Liadri&Turai, but 8-orbs Liadri is the hardest challenge I ever had in gw2.

I guess it depends on what build you're using. I just slapped a focus on my Mirage and pulled multiple adds into the lights. It didn't even feel more difficult than the normal mode, since I had already learned the mechanics and they didn't change at all.

@Tails.9372 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:By farming Istan and giving them lots of gold in exchange for the kills you're doing exactly that - rewarding higher skill and higher effort with a larger reward.Then in this case the gold they got is the reward for the effort these players put in but this has nothing to do with the armor the other guy received as it doesn't reflect his "efforts" meaning that wearing it proves nothing whtch makes it unfitting as a status symbol for personal "skills and accomplishments".

Depends on the perspective. It means exactly as much as you put into it. If you bought it, then all it means to you are the hours upon hours of mindless farm. If you did it on your own, then it has much greater meaning. And that's the common case by a wide margin, not the buying one.

@Tails.9372 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:Even the hardest solo fights we saw not that long ago don't really compare to some normal mode raid bosses.The game mostly focuses on multiplayer content so of course there is not much to compare but just because they don't focus on releasing difficult solo content doesn't mean they can't.

It doesn't, but read again what I said. No matter how hard solo content you want to make, you can always create harder group content.

@Tails.9372 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:They'll never be as prestigious as the raid ones.They arguably already are, I can just accuse someone of having bought the raid boss kill and he would have no way of proving me wrong based on the title alone.

No they aren't. Not even close. Nobody cares if you have TBL or Kingslayer. VitV? That gives you a free pass almost everywhere. And for a good reason.

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