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Thieves ruin WvW


Gondolph.7201

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@DeceiverX.8361 said:

@ProverbsofHell.2307 said:Sacrificing a utility JUST for thieves is insane imo.

Most DE builds are so dependent on Stealth, even just for a few seconds, that they are
required
to use Shadow Meld as their elite in case of Reveal.

Just shows how badly they are designed for WvW.

A bad design because a DE is pigeon holed into an elite skill or for some other reason? Any suggestions for a replacement?

Cough

Anything based on sustained stealth and/or capable of sustained stealth and safe burst damage is literally impossible to balance and make fun to play as/against based on how the combat in this game works.

The idea of more stealth on the thief, especially as a ranged burst damage dealer, never should have made it past the early stages of the drawing board.

The casuals need it, to overperform their capabilities as casuals.

It is a game for casuals in 1st place :\, that why i even doubt Anet will improve stealth mechanics.

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@Aeolus.3615 said:

@"ProverbsofHell.2307" said:Sacrificing a utility JUST for thieves is insane imo.

Most DE builds are so dependent on Stealth, even just for a few seconds, that they are
required
to use Shadow Meld as their elite in case of Reveal.

Just shows how badly they are designed for WvW.

A bad design because a DE is pigeon holed into an elite skill or for some other reason? Any suggestions for a replacement?

Cough

Anything based on sustained stealth and/or capable of sustained stealth and safe burst damage is literally impossible to balance and make fun to play as/against based on how the combat in this game works.

The idea of more stealth on the thief, especially as a ranged burst damage dealer, never should have made it past the early stages of the drawing board.

The casuals need it, to overperform their capabilities as casuals.

As opposed to non-casuals who need a game that aims for them, is full of passives, is largely slow paced and is an imbalanced cheesefest where the meta cheese carries very, very hard and a game mode that is competitively dismal, to "overperform their capabilities".

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@geist.4126 said:

@Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497 said:because necro has other means of protecting themselves and staying alive.

Name all of them.

while I'm not an expert on necro stuff, one majorr thing I can list from ontopp of my head (applies to core necro and reaper) - death shroudwhich is another hp bar ontop of already highest hp pool in the game.

scourge replaces that for barrier which is another defensive mechanic.

I'd let someone more knowledgeable to list rest of them tho.(but basing on my experience necros in wvw does not seem to have issues surviving when visible, as opposed to thiefs - I once tried no-stealth evade stacked roaming build and guess what - it didn't work)

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@Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497 said:

No. Stealth is a major part of thiefs defenses, along with their mobility. Remove it, and you'll have to compensate them. Which you probably wont like.

The stealth protects them by giving them a needed buff to damage resistance to protect them from AoE spam, and to break targeting of moves that will kill them. Also remember that a thief that is perma stealth has several major vulnerabilities. Condi, cc, and limited escape options.

Then why my core power necro does not have stealths, mobility, evades, block etc? Core power necro needs them too. ((Any top necro player could 1v1 with core power necro vs deadeye?))

because necro has other means of protecting themselves and staying alive.

"Constantly having to compromise and sacrifice whatyou want in order to meet the expectations of extroverts,....when you ask them to compromise for you"

Necromancers constantly have to sacrifice and compromise their survivability in order to stay alive while thieves sacrifices and compromise nothing. Would thieves be willing to compromise their unlimited supplies, unlimited tools and unlimited resources without putting absolutely no effort whatsoever to be in necromancer place?

Perma stealths.... need i say more?

Absolutely Not!!

Necromancers have to constantly sacrifice and compromise everything to work hard in order to protect themselves and to stay alive

Thieves,Nothing great was everaccomplished without making sacrifices

Without pain, there would beno suffering, without suffering,we would never learn from ourmistakes

Necromancer

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I'm of the camp that stealth effects should not stack in duration as they're not a proper boon anyway. To balance, stealth effects should get an across the board duration increase (+2 seconds perhaps?). This removes permanent stealth while (hopefully) leaving enough time to be of some use, also may open the possibility of stealth utilizing classes to not be as pigeon holed into stealth utilities and smoke fields since they won't stack anyway.

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@Lord Trejgon.2809 said:

@"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:because necro has other means of protecting themselves and staying alive.

Name all of them.

while I'm not an expert on necro stuff, one majorr thing I can list from ontopp of my head (applies to core necro and reaper) - death shroudwhich is another hp bar ontop of already highest hp pool in the game.

scourge replaces that for barrier which is another defensive mechanic.

I'd let someone more knowledgeable to list rest of them tho.(but basing on my experience necros in wvw does not seem to have issues surviving when visible, as opposed to thiefs - I once tried no-stealth evade stacked roaming build and guess what - it didn't work)

Necro's major design flaw is that it has no scaling defenses. Blocks, evades and Invulnerability can negate an infinite amount of incoming attacks. Health cannot.

Although Necromancer objectively has the highest HP if you include Shroud, it means very little when you're dealing with multiple opponents. And at this point in GW2's life, it means very little in general since most things can shred through 50k HP in a couple seconds if you let them.

That said, Shroud is most effective when it's used like a shield. Entering it to sponge attacks that aren't worth dodging or attacks that you cannot dodge (because you're CC'd, immobilized, out of endurance, etc.) while remaining offensive with the skills Shroud offers is the appropriate way to use Shroud, rather than just using it to sponge everything. The same can no longer be said of Reaper however since it's Shroud deteriorates more rapidly than a core Necromancer's or a Scourge's Barriers.

Besides Shroud and Barrier, Necro has a couple ports like Wurm, Spectral Walk and Sand Swell which are all good defensive skills. Unfortunately, 2 of the 3 require a pre-cast and the third is very easy to interrupt with a short range.

Area denial is Necro's strongest defense. You do not want to go toe to toe with a power Reaper and you do not want to face tank a Scourges Shades. Unfortunately, core Necro is severely lacking in this department.

Overall, Necro does have defenses beyond HP, but they are all relatively easy to counter. This is why Necro suffers so much when it's solo and why it has such a high skill ceiling despite being a user friendly class. You don't see nearly as many good Necro's as you do other classes because very few people have the patience to push it to it's maximum potential. I can think of only two players that have done so;Mijo:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6TccYcbcMJ4Hollts:

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@DemonSeed.3528 said:

@Gondolph.7201 said:currently there is a increasing use of thieves in WvW. The tactics is usually the following: 3 thieves are in the (enemies) castle. We tried as a zerg to kill them, but you need approx. 20 min sometimes tro get 2 of them. The stealth disruption trap is almost useless now, since the death-eye is visible for approx. 2-3 sec now. They are almost permanent invisible anyway.So if the zerg does not want to run for hours behind phantoms, the leader finally decides to ignore thieves. and go for fights then. 10 minutes later the castle is fallen. Half of the game mechanics renders obsolete, there is no point anymore in nurturing castles to higher levels, unless the full zerg remains in it.

that is no fun anymore.

Not going to say it's not annoying, but if you want to get them just wait till they try to cap, they can't perma stealth and cap. Put a golem at lords, trust me it helps. If you're going to be there you might as well chuck a couple of golems in lords for good measure, they cannot one shot you inside one and they have to reveal themselves to kill the lord as well. You will only lose sm to them if they are ignored at lords.

yeah everyone in the 25-man zerg stop for 20 minutes to play patti-cake with 3 thieves using broken game mechanics...

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@juno.1840 said:

@Gondolph.7201 said:currently there is a increasing use of thieves in WvW. The tactics is usually the following: 3 thieves are in the (enemies) castle. We tried as a zerg to kill them, but you need approx. 20 min sometimes tro get 2 of them. The stealth disruption trap is almost useless now, since the death-eye is visible for approx. 2-3 sec now. They are almost permanent invisible anyway.So if the zerg does not want to run for hours behind phantoms, the leader finally decides to ignore thieves. and go for fights then. 10 minutes later the castle is fallen. Half of the game mechanics renders obsolete, there is no point anymore in nurturing castles to higher levels, unless the full zerg remains in it.

that is no fun anymore.

Not going to say it's not annoying, but if you want to get them just wait till they try to cap, they can't perma stealth and cap. Put a golem at lords, trust me it helps. If you're going to be there you might as well chuck a couple of golems in lords for good measure, they cannot one shot you inside one and they have to reveal themselves to kill the lord as well. You will only lose sm to them if they are ignored at lords.

yeah everyone in the 25-man zerg stop for 20 minutes to play patti-cake with 3 thieves using broken game mechanics...

waiting there with 25 man will make it unlikely the thieves will act. the problem is the 25 abusing the broken game mechanic in stacking numbers to a point that there is no reason to engage and then complain about it.

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@Duckota.4769 said:Tbh I play some deadeye thief. Backstab 1 shot build. Its fun. Die a lot more than people here may think by picking targets that look juicy only for them to hit some sick i-frame skills, get some distance, turn around and clap back. I do think it's a bit strong. Not the stealth itself.

I too have started playing deadeye and die a lot as well (mainly to scrappers and reveal lol). The perma stealth while cheesy isn't the problem its the massive damage they can do coming out of stealth which is the big problem. If I pop assassin's signet then mark my target then use binding shadow along with sigil of impact then I can hit for 18k+ easily on soft targets which is a 1 shot to almost any class running a glass build and at most 2 or 3 shots on tanky build's with the follow up shots if they are stunned unless they pop invul's then I just stealth and go find another target.

Deadeye to me seems a bit broken but I don't know what could be done to it other than reduce damage coming out of stealth without breaking it completely because they rely so much on stealth. Maybe nerf Silent scope down to 5% critical chance increase instead of 20%?

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@Aiga.3075 said:

@Duckota.4769 said:Tbh I play some deadeye thief. Backstab 1 shot build. Its fun. Die a lot more than people here may think by picking targets that look juicy only for them to hit some sick i-frame skills, get some distance, turn around and clap back. I do think it's a bit strong. Not the stealth itself.

I too have started playing deadeye and die a lot as well (mainly to scrappers and reveal lol). The perma stealth while cheesy isn't the problem its the massive damage they can do coming out of stealth which is the big problem. If I pop assassin's signet then mark my target then use binding shadow along with sigil of impact then I can hit for 18k+ easily on soft targets which is a 1 shot to almost any class running a glass build and at most 2 or 3 shots on tanky build's with the follow up shots if they are stunned unless they pop invul's then I just stealth and go find another target.

Deadeye to me seems a bit broken but I don't know what could be done to it other than reduce damage coming out of stealth without breaking it completely because they rely so much on stealth. Maybe nerf Silent scope down to 5% critical chance increase instead of 20%?

I could live with having dodge for stealth reduced somehow or replaced with something more along the lines of original Silent Scope that was Kneel for stealth. Or, unpack that damage over the duration of the fight somehow and let it cleave or do area damage, otherwise leave the damage alone and everyone can cope and build their defenses accordingly like the thieves their complaining about do.

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@MUDse.7623 said:

@Gondolph.7201 said:currently there is a increasing use of thieves in WvW. The tactics is usually the following: 3 thieves are in the (enemies) castle. We tried as a zerg to kill them, but you need approx. 20 min sometimes tro get 2 of them. The stealth disruption trap is almost useless now, since the death-eye is visible for approx. 2-3 sec now. They are almost permanent invisible anyway.So if the zerg does not want to run for hours behind phantoms, the leader finally decides to ignore thieves. and go for fights then. 10 minutes later the castle is fallen. Half of the game mechanics renders obsolete, there is no point anymore in nurturing castles to higher levels, unless the full zerg remains in it.

that is no fun anymore.

Not going to say it's not annoying, but if you want to get them just wait till they try to cap, they can't perma stealth and cap. Put a golem at lords, trust me it helps. If you're going to be there you might as well chuck a couple of golems in lords for good measure, they cannot one shot you inside one and they have to reveal themselves to kill the lord as well. You will only lose sm to them if they are ignored at lords.

yeah everyone in the 25-man zerg stop for 20 minutes to play patti-cake with 3 thieves using broken game mechanics...

waiting there with 25 man will make it unlikely the thieves will act. the problem is the 25 abusing the broken game mechanic in stacking numbers to a point that there is no reason to engage and then complain about it.

Of course the thieves wont act with a 25-man blob, but even that is a victory for the thieves since a very small team would keep a very large team out of action.

Stacking numbers is not a broken mechanic... it's not even a mechanic.

WvW is a game of numbers. If you want a game of skill, go play PvP.

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@gebrechen.5643 said:Options:

  • delete the ability to undo reveal
  • set revealed to 5s
  • make stealth cost 50% of your energy

choose one ore all of the above and apply patch.

So you basically want to go up to them and killed them very easily in 2 hits. Then it's no longer op. Maybe they should also Nerf the defense mechanic of all other professions except the one you play. Blocks for guard, shroud for necro, clones for mes etc.

Then once every thing else dies from you because they have zero defense then there is balance.

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@juno.1840 said:

@Gondolph.7201 said:currently there is a increasing use of thieves in WvW. The tactics is usually the following: 3 thieves are in the (enemies) castle. We tried as a zerg to kill them, but you need approx. 20 min sometimes tro get 2 of them. The stealth disruption trap is almost useless now, since the death-eye is visible for approx. 2-3 sec now. They are almost permanent invisible anyway.So if the zerg does not want to run for hours behind phantoms, the leader finally decides to ignore thieves. and go for fights then. 10 minutes later the castle is fallen. Half of the game mechanics renders obsolete, there is no point anymore in nurturing castles to higher levels, unless the full zerg remains in it.

that is no fun anymore.

Not going to say it's not annoying, but if you want to get them just wait till they try to cap, they can't perma stealth and cap. Put a golem at lords, trust me it helps. If you're going to be there you might as well chuck a couple of golems in lords for good measure, they cannot one shot you inside one and they have to reveal themselves to kill the lord as well. You will only lose sm to them if they are ignored at lords.

yeah everyone in the 25-man zerg stop for 20 minutes to play patti-cake with 3 thieves using broken game mechanics...

waiting there with 25 man will make it unlikely the thieves will act. the problem is the 25 abusing the broken game mechanic in stacking numbers to a point that there is no reason to engage and then complain about it.

Of course the thieves wont act with a 25-man blob, but even that is a victory for the thieves since a very small team would keep a very large team out of action.

Stacking numbers is not a broken mechanic... it's not even a mechanic.

WvW is a game of numbers. If you want a game of skill, go play PvP.

there is no need for a 25 man blob to kill a few thieves. its still their stupidity in thinking stacking up numbers will solve every issue instantly. i mean with large teams you surely will have 1-2 people able to kill the thief or group of thieves at lord, maybe got to ask in chat for some of your servers roamers or mainly duellists to help you out if you are on zerg builds. but no - most people just want to play a game of boredom instead of giving their opponent a reason to act. its like spawncamping every exit with 20 people when there is only 3 in spawn, if you back off and give them an opportunity to do something, you might get a chance to kill them but standing there you just bore them or ask them to be stupid.

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@TorQ.7041 said:

@gebrechen.5643 said:Options:
  • delete the ability to undo reveal
  • set revealed to 5s
  • make stealth cost 50% of your energy

choose one ore all of the above and apply patch.

So you basically want to go up to them and killed them very easily in 2 hits. Then it's no longer op. Maybe they should also Nerf the defense mechanic of all other professions except the one you play. Blocks for guard, shroud for necro, clones for mes etc.

Then once every thing else dies from you because they have zero defense then there is balance.

None of those mentioned things destroys the class. Thieves still have a by far greater toolkit for escape than other classes around and they don't have to sacrifice anything for it - they can even run full berserker gear - which no other build can.

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@geist.4126 said:None of those mentioned things destroys the class. Thieves still have a by far greater toolkit for escape than other classes around and they don't have to sacrifice anything for it - they can even run full berserker gear - which no other build can.

full berserker gearin wvwin 2018wha?

full berserker thiefs as so glass that they can die to retaliation off their attacks alone and fairly quick while at it.and while everything when running full berserker is glass as crap, I'd say most other classes at least needs to be hit to go down instead of just dying to retal.

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@geist.4126 said:

@gebrechen.5643 said:Options:
  • delete the ability to undo reveal
  • set revealed to 5s
  • make stealth cost 50% of your energy

choose one ore all of the above and apply patch.

So you basically want to go up to them and killed them very easily in 2 hits. Then it's no longer op. Maybe they should also Nerf the defense mechanic of all other professions except the one you play. Blocks for guard, shroud for necro, clones for mes etc.

Then once every thing else dies from you because they have zero defense then there is balance.

None of those mentioned things destroys the class. Thieves still have a by far greater toolkit for escape than other classes around and they don't have to sacrifice anything for it - they can even run full berserker gear - which no other build can.

Seen warriors necros and even some revs. Rangers and holos use beserker gear then slap in some marurder to get 20k health or something.

It's mostly the de that will run the 11k full beserker gear.

Thievs need iniaitve to escape and rifle is pretty heavy on it too, also sword mirage and easily keep up the pace so can holo with rocket boots and rifle (more then enough time to either waste the thievs initiative or to even land killing blows on the thief)

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@geist.4126 said:

@gebrechen.5643 said:Options:
  • delete the ability to undo reveal
  • set revealed to 5s
  • make stealth cost 50% of your energy

choose one ore all of the above and apply patch.

So you basically want to go up to them and killed them very easily in 2 hits. Then it's no longer op. Maybe they should also Nerf the defense mechanic of all other professions except the one you play. Blocks for guard, shroud for necro, clones for mes etc.

Then once every thing else dies from you because they have zero defense then there is balance.

None of those mentioned things destroys the class. Thieves still have a by far greater toolkit for escape than other classes around and they don't have to sacrifice anything for it - they can even run full berserker gear - which no other build can.

A normal thief sure. But a normal thief won't have the dmg to wreck u in seconds.

Most people hate on the deadeye but it has zero escape cabilities apart from skill 4 which doesn't go very far.

I really have had zero problems when I play Holo rev thief or guard vs deadeye. If u can leap or teleport to a DE and aoe. They r basically dead.

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