Do raids need easy/normal/hard difficulty mode? [merged] - Page 81 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Do raids need easy/normal/hard difficulty mode? [merged]

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  • pls dont do casual game like lol or wow

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:
    It doesn't, but read again what I said. No matter how hard solo content you want to make, you can always create harder group content.

    So? You are comparing actual, existing content with a theoretical, nonexisting one. Obviously, such comparison will always show what you want it to show, but it doesn't really have any meaning. In theory, you can also create a solo content so hard, that no group content could ever be meaningfully more difficult (because once you get to the point noone is able to pass, any increase in difficulty is meaningless). Again, so what? Such comparisons do not prove anything.

    No, here I was comparing non-existing content with other non-existing. The statement was about theoretical maximums. The comparison of existing vs existing content I already did. And it shows exactly the same.

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:
    No they aren't. Not even close. Nobody cares if you have TBL or Kingslayer. VitV? That gives you a free pass almost everywhere.

    That's because your "everywhere" happens to be limited to mostly raid content. Outside of them most players do not really care about it (or even know what that title is for). And even in raids it's not a "free pass", at best it can make people not insist on you linking KPs (and sometimes not even that). Make a mistake, and you will get treated the same as someone without the title, though.

    Which is more than you can say about the solo titles. For them you only have your own subjective opinion. Statistics back me up and objective facts - which you admit here, however reluctantly - back me up. Regardless of conditions you want to impose the fact remains VitV is recognized somewhere and carries a weight. Can you say this for TBL?

  • Tails.9372Tails.9372 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 11, 2018

    @Feanor.2358 said:
    It doesn't, but read again what I said. No matter how hard solo content you want to make, you can always create harder group content.

    You're focusing on the wrong word here it's not "you can always" but "you can always". Like Astralporing said you always leave a safety margin but it's more realistic that they're more demanding in regards to the individual performance when it comes to solo content.

    @Feanor.2358 said:
    No they aren't. Not even close. Nobody cares if you have TBL or Kingslayer. VitV? That gives you a free pass almost everywhere. And for a good reason.

    On the other hand having VitV still proves nothing substantial other than "I participated". I've seen far to many players decked out with raid stuff bumbling around like buffoons for it to count for anything, at least with a solo title you have a rough idea what kind of content that person should be able to handle.

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Tails.9372 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:
    It doesn't, but read again what I said. No matter how hard solo content you want to make, you can always create harder group content.

    You're focusing on the wrong word here it's not "you can always" but "you can always". Like Astralporing said you always leave a safety margin but it's more realistic that they're more demanding in regards to the individual performance when it comes to solo content.

    And yet they aren't.

    @Tails.9372 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:
    No they aren't. Not even close. Nobody cares if you have TBL or Kingslayer. VitV? That gives you a free pass almost everywhere. And for a good reason.

    On the other hand having VitV still proves nothing substantial other than "I participated". I've seen far to many players decked out with raid stuff bumbling around like buffoons for it to count for anything, at least with a solo title you have a rough idea what kind of content that person should be able to handle.

    And yet nobody cares.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    We need an easy mode, but not a hard mode

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:
    It doesn't, but read again what I said. No matter how hard solo content you want to make, you can always create harder group content.

    So? You are comparing actual, existing content with a theoretical, nonexisting one. Obviously, such comparison will always show what you want it to show, but it doesn't really have any meaning. In theory, you can also create a solo content so hard, that no group content could ever be meaningfully more difficult (because once you get to the point noone is able to pass, any increase in difficulty is meaningless). Again, so what? Such comparisons do not prove anything.

    No, here I was comparing non-existing content with other non-existing. The statement was about theoretical maximums.

    Theoretical maximum for both is exactly the same - it's at the content that is so hard noone is able to do it level. You can make any type of content that hard, if you want. But, as i mentioned before, it's purely theoretical, for obvious reasons.

    @Feanor.2358 said:
    The comparison of existing vs existing content I already did. And it shows exactly the same.

    You compared completion rates, which is completely different. And it still doesn't countet my point - at the same overall difficulty level, solo content is individually much harder. And since the overall difficulty level is capped by design intentions, the only content that truly proves the personal skill of any player can only be solo one. Any group content that would be as hard for each individual player would end up way above overall difficulty level any developer might be comfortable with.

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:
    No they aren't. Not even close. Nobody cares if you have TBL or Kingslayer. VitV? That gives you a free pass almost everywhere.

    That's because your "everywhere" happens to be limited to mostly raid content. Outside of them most players do not really care about it (or even know what that title is for). And even in raids it's not a "free pass", at best it can make people not insist on you linking KPs (and sometimes not even that). Make a mistake, and you will get treated the same as someone without the title, though.

    Which is more than you can say about the solo titles. For them you only have your own subjective opinion.

    Fot VitV there's only a subjective opinion as well.

    Statistics back me up

    They don't. They are for something else completely.

    and objective facts - which you admit here, however reluctantly - back me up.

    Which objective facts? Statistics you brought up? Because i don't really see anything else.

    Regardless of conditions you want to impose the fact remains VitV is recognized somewhere and carries a weight. Can you say this for TBL?

    Considering that the "weight" you speak of is pretty weak? Yeah, Liadri title brings probably about as much recognition, if not more (because, as i mentioned, many players still probably don't even know what VitV is about, but they do know about Liadri).

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 12, 2018
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Fot VitV there's only a subjective opinion as well.

    No, there's an objective fact - showing VitV is enough for the vast majority of raid groups to accept you. Would you please try to gain entry by showing TBL and share the results here?

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Fot VitV there's only a subjective opinion as well.

    No, there's an objective fact - showing VitV is enough for the vast majority of raid groups to accept you. Would you please try to gain entry by showing TBL and share the results here?

    Hmmm, that's not really true. On the contrary the majority of the groups ask to ping a bunch of kps and won't let you participate with only the title. VitV means nothing to them since it can be bought easily and for prices that are high but affordable for longterm or ambitious players.

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Vinceman.4572 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Fot VitV there's only a subjective opinion as well.

    No, there's an objective fact - showing VitV is enough for the vast majority of raid groups to accept you. Would you please try to gain entry by showing TBL and share the results here?

    Hmmm, that's not really true. On the contrary the majority of the groups ask to ping a bunch of kps and won't let you participate with only the title. VitV means nothing to them since it can be bought easily and for prices that are high but affordable for longterm or ambitious players.

    The only kps I ever ping are Dhuum's and now the ones from W6 since the wing is new (although I'm certain I can safely dispose of the b1/b2 ones already, Qadim's are the only ones that count). "voice/envoy" has been sufficient to get me in any group I joined for everything else.

    I think you're grossly overestimating the amount of people who bought VitV. The title carries enough weight so people are willing to accept you. Of course, if you fail badly they will revise their attitude very quickly. That's just another reason why it is accepted as a measure of skill despite being able to buy it. With these titles it is extremely obvious when it is earned and when it isn't.

  • Ana.2415Ana.2415 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 12, 2018

    I don't mind if they add a easy mode to raids, but they shouldn't give any achivement, KP, li's or reward. It wouldn't be fair to get similar rewards and li's than the people doing normal/hard mode. The rewards of the current raids are already "low".

    I have the feeling that most of the people that are asking for "easy" mode wouldn't even do them if there is no rewards or if u can't get the legendary insights doing that.

    edit: if they get magnetite shards, you should only get 50 per week max. if you do them on easy mode.

  • Tails.9372Tails.9372 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 12, 2018

    @Feanor.2358 said:
    And yet they aren't.

    I already addressed that point, you're comparing multiple areas of the game with an almost none existing one. You can say "It doesn't" as much as you like but it doesn't change the fact that pretty much all of the content they design is MP focused. High level fractals, raids, there is just no SP equivalent to that because they generally don't care about making difficult SP content.

    @Ana.2415 said:
    I don't mind if they add a easy mode to raids, but they shouldn't give any achivement, KP, li's or reward. It wouldn't be fair to get similar rewards and li's than the people doing normal/hard mode.

    In terms of quantity you're right, completing more difficult versions of the content should get you more rewards but the quality of the general rewards should be the same as they are just non specific participation rewards. Just like how it is with fractals, the low difficulties should serve as an entry point for getting new players into the content. Most people would gravitate towards higher difficulties anyways because getting the rewards they're after X times as fast is alredy quite incentivising and in this regard I oftentimes wish more people would actually take the time to play low level fractals to get a general idea of how the content works as it can be quite frustrating if you're playing on a higher difficulty and people still don't even know how to deal with the basic game mechanics of the content in question.

    @Ana.2415 said:
    I have the feeling that most of the people that are asking for "easy" mode wouldn't even do them if there is no rewards or if u can't get the legendary insights doing that.

    Because why would they? They do it once for the story and don't have any reason to return afterwards but the same can be said for the raid and pretty much every other content in general. Many players stop after they achieve everything there is to achieve and then wait for new content to be realeased. Low replayability leads to dead content and rewards / long term goals to work towards are the main source of replayability in PvE based content.

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Tails.9372 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:
    And yet they aren't.

    I already addressed that point, you're comparing multiple areas of the game with an almost none existing one. You can say "It doesn't" as much as you like but it doesn't change the fact that pretty much all of the content they design is MP focused. High level fractals, raids, there is just no SP equivalent to that because they generally don't care about making difficult SP content.

    Do we have difficult SP content in the game? We do. Is it easier than the difficult MP content? It is. I rest my case.

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 12, 2018
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Feanor.2358 said:
    The only kps I ever ping are Dhuum's and now the ones from W6 since the wing is new (although I'm certain I can safely dispose of the b1/b2 ones already, Qadim's are the only ones that count). "voice/envoy" has been sufficient to get me in any group I joined for everything else.

    Then you're pretty lucky even well-known streamers do not get access to Dhuum and other bosses by stating "I have VitV." The day before yesterday Plenyx was booted for that live on stream.

    I think you're grossly overestimating the amount of people who bought VitV.

    No, I don't. Maybe in US, in EU it's a different thing. Desmina CM is easy as is Statues of Grenth. So Dhuum CM is the only barrier people have to conquer so they easily buy that.

    The title carries enough weight so people are willing to accept you. Of course, if you fail badly they will revise their attitude very quickly. That's just another reason why it is accepted as a measure of skill despite being able to buy it. With these titles it is extremely obvious when it is earned and when it isn't.

    It's not often accepted in EU. And yes, you'll obviously see if somebody has to do mechanics like greens, tank or kite. If you are just dps'ing on dhuum or playing the healer in the middle it's a quasi free-ride. I've done it all, the difference is huge. Most ridiculous thing is Deadeye and you don't have to do anything besides your rotation, look into the middle and care shackles.

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    Mate, it is accepted in the EU, I'm in EU and I have been pugging like that for months. Please don't tell me it's just luck, that's rubbish. There probably are groups which won't accept VitV as credentials enough to give you a shot, but they are very, VERY small minority.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    We need an easy mode, but not a hard mode

    @Feanor.2358 said:
    Do we have difficult SP content in the game? We do. Is it easier than the difficult MP content? It is. I rest my case.

    Is it really, or is it just your purely subjective opinion? Because for me, Liadri was much harder than Dhuum. And that's without the 8 orbs achi.

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Fot VitV there's only a subjective opinion as well.

    No, there's an objective fact - showing VitV is enough for the vast majority of raid groups to accept you. Would you please try to gain entry by showing TBL and share the results here?

    Why would a solo title count in this case? VitV does count for raids (although probably not as well as you might think it does, i saw more than once people with it getting kicked because they wouldn't link KPs, and most groups would still pick 80+ dhuum token player over low kp/no kp VitV one).

    I think you are mistaking one thing: VitV does count a bit (but only a bit) in raid environment, that's true, but not because it denotes skill, but because it says you probably have at least some experience with boss fights. So, basically the same as linking some KPs. Obviously, TBL doesn't carry the same message, because someone with it, no matter their personal skill, is not guaranteed to have seen even a single raid boss. So, the same reason why in fractals VitV doesn't count at all, and people keep asking for LNHB.

    It has nothing to do with the recognition of personal skill however.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    I think you are mistaking one thing: VitV does count a bit (but only a bit) in raid environment, that's true, but not because it denotes skill, but because it says you probably have at least some experience with boss fights. So, basically the same as linking some KPs. Obviously, TBL doesn't carry the same message, because someone with it, no matter their personal skill, is not guaranteed to have seen even a single raid boss. So, the same reason why in fractals VitV doesn't count at all, and people keep asking for LNHB.

    It has nothing to do with the recognition of personal skill however.

    Fair enough. Same can be said for TBL, since it doesn't count for literally anything. So how exactly it is supposed to carry more prestige, which was your original claim? Prestige is recognition. Of the two titles, only one is recognized for anything, in any measurable way.

  • Tails.9372Tails.9372 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 12, 2018

    @Feanor.2358 said:
    Do we have difficult SP content in the game? We do.

    Not really, at least not for the core gameplay content. Of course it depends on what you count as "difficult" but both Liadri and Turai Ossa are more challenging than difficult.

    @Feanor.2358 said:
    Is it easier than the difficult MP content? It is.

    Only if you ignore the requirement for individual performance in which case it's beside the point.

    @Feanor.2358 said:
    So how exactly it is supposed to carry more prestige

    It carries more prestige for those who care about personal player skill and accomplishments because (unlike group titles) they actually reflect on the player wearing it in this regard, group titles on the other hand only cary prestige for those who care about experience. If that's all you care about fine but saying "no one cares about solo titles" essentially means that no one cares about player skill and personal accomplishments which I find hard to believe.

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Tails.9372 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:
    So how exactly it is supposed to carry more prestige

    It carries more prestige for those who care about personal player skill and accomplishments because (unlike group titles) they actually reflect on the player wearing it in this regard, group titles on the other hand only cary prestige for those who care about experience. If that's all you care about fine but saying "no one cares about solo titles" essentially means that no one cares about player skill and personal accomplishments which I find hard to believe.

    Oh, they do care about players skill and personal accomplishments, only they value the MP-related ones higher, because they're harder.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @Ana.2415 said:
    I don't mind if they add a easy mode to raids, but they shouldn't give any achivement, KP, li's or reward. It wouldn't be fair to get similar rewards and li's than the people doing normal/hard mode. The rewards of the current raids are already "low".

    I have the feeling that most of the people that are asking for "easy" mode wouldn't even do them if there is no rewards or if u can't get the legendary insights doing that.

    edit: if they get magnetite shards, you should only get 50 per week max. if you do them on easy mode.

    I think an easy mode deserves some rewards, but the main Legendary Armor collection should be reserved for normal etc. I’m fine with even supplying a finite amount of mag shards per week.

  • Grogba.6204Grogba.6204 Member ✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    I wouldn't mind mag shards if they are shared between modes. If you plan to grab the legendary armor you swim in them before long anyway and the skins are expensive enough that you'd still have to play four weeks for one of them. At least they allow you to buy ascended gear without much hassle.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @Grogba.6204 said:
    I wouldn't mind mag shards if they are shared between modes. If you plan to grab the legendary armor you swim in them before long anyway and the skins are expensive enough that you'd still have to play four weeks for one of them. At least they allow you to buy ascended gear without much hassle.

    You could also lock the weapon skins to normal mode too and just have the minis available.

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Feanor.2358 said:
    Mate, it is accepted in the EU, I'm in EU and I have been pugging like that for months. Please don't tell me it's just luck, that's rubbish. There probably are groups which won't accept VitV as credentials enough to give you a shot, but they are very, VERY small minority.

    You're making the mistake that you only look on your site. Subjective bias. Streamers proving a different picture. Yes, there are groups that take you instantly with VitV and nothing else but the overwhelming majority asks for a decent amount of kps and doesn't care about VitV as it clearly shows nothing. I usually disagree with your post but here you are predominantly wrong. :)

  • Tails.9372Tails.9372 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Tails.9372 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:
    So how exactly it is supposed to carry more prestige

    It carries more prestige for those who care about personal player skill and accomplishments because (unlike group titles) they actually reflect on the player wearing it in this regard, group titles on the other hand only cary prestige for those who care about experience. If that's all you care about fine but saying "no one cares about solo titles" essentially means that no one cares about player skill and personal accomplishments which I find hard to believe.

    Oh, they do care about players skill and personal accomplishments, only they value the MP-related ones higher, because they're harder.

    Something you can just buy for money has no value for everyone who truly cares about personal player skill (at least not in that regard).

  • Digit.1823Digit.1823 Member ✭✭
    edited October 14, 2018
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Tails.9372 said:

    @Digit.1823 said:
    On a more serious note, you should look up the explanation of "philosophy of fairness" which basically tells in excellent detail that it is only normal that the more work you do (or the harder you work) the more you should be rewarded. And the less you do the less you should be rewarded. This is actually such a basic logical thing that i'm a bit aghast that people still think easy mode version should give everything normal mode does.

    Doesn't make much sense to bring up this point as a response to a post which stated that easier difficulties should get fewer rewards.

    It made absolute sense because of this quote.

    @Tails.9372 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    B) no Legendary Armor items, LI etc. Exotics and rares would be fine for this.

    If you want it to end up as dead content that is, otherwise reduced rewards like how it is for fractals would be the way to go.

    You are directly replying to Tyson claiming that if they leave out the main rewards (No legendary armor or LI's) then easy/story mode raids will end up as dead content. These are your exact words. You follow it up saying that reduced rewards like fractals are the way to go, but what in your opinion are reduced rewards like fractals? Tyson already said exotics and rares would be fine for a story/easy mode raids. But do you mean that people should also get the Legendary Armor achievements? Or what about LI? Should they get 1 LI per boss or 1 LI per wing? Magnetite shards? Should people be allowed to work towards Legendary Armor at all in story/easy mode raids? Should ascended items drop? You need to be more specific or at least elaborate your point of view more because right now nothing you said made sense.

    @Tails.9372 said:

    @Digit.1823 said:
    And don't start with things like "yeah but a full clear on story/easy mode would only give 1 LI per wing and not per boss" because the only thing that does is time-gate it more. It doesn't make the effort of killing the bosses and doing the events any harder or more challenging. Time-gating =/= more challenge.

    So what? Legendary items are participation rewards, nothing more. One can just as well run some extra rounds in Istan and buy the kills. I start buying the "people should adhere to higher standards" argument once the raid community actively pressures A-Net to do something against raid sellers. At least this way people would actually be incentivised to play the related content. It's not like the stuff where you can get help from other players amounts to anything anyways. If it's "prestige" you're after you should ask A-Net for some high difficulty solo content.

    It seems it was a good thing that i waited a bit and checked your later comments as well before replying because right now it just seems you're throwing up a lot of smoke and shouting "Fire, fire!" while there actually is no fire. People can also see this in the posts you made later in this thread, you're throwing around words like "Prestige!", "Longevity of the game-mode!" and "Legendary items are participation rewards, nothing more!" but you've never actually addressed the point of why people deserve the same rewards of a higher difficulty mode for doing less on an easier difficulty mode. I really would like to hear your thoughts on that considering your posts here.

    "Prestige"? - Subjective, you don't care about my Voice in the Void/Champion of Zommoros titles (which you might have too, i do not know). And i don't care about your The Blazing Light/Kingslayer titles (if you have those, i honestly don't know). Which i both happen to have + the 8 orb Liadri achievement, just to make clear that i do also enjoy challenging solo content. But since the prestige of titles is subjective it's an immensely poor argument. Who is to say what carries more worth then the other? Is it you? is it me? Someone else in this thread? Anet perhaps? You've seen the discussion between Feanor and Astralporing, even they can't figure it out despite maddoctor giving some insightful numbers from GW2 Efficiency. But in the end they're just numbers, and numbers might not lie but they cannot tell what carries more worth to a person.

    "Longevity of the game-mode"? - I'm pretty sure quite a few posters claim that story/easy mode raids would be fine for the following reasons:

    • Being able to experience the story, the little bit that there is and nothing else.
    • Being able to train the mechanics of the bosses without constantly wiping. And on a more relaxed difficulty setting so they can enjoy it more and nothing else.

    It seems a consensus among pro-story/easy mode raids advocates is far away considering the myriad points of view people are having. What is longevity to you anyway? I want to make clear i do agree with this though, it will probably give more longevity to the game mode considering that people can be eased into raids better so they can work their way up to normal mode and claim the main rewards in the intended difficulty mode. (The main rewards of course being LI and Legendary Armor) Longevity is borne out of the fact that people can continue playing, going from the lesser difficulty to the intended difficulty and then working their way to whatever rewards they want from that.

    "Legendary items are participation rewards, nothing more"? - This...this made the least sense. I mean what, just because you stepped foot into raids once you deserve the full credit and should just automatically receive a full set of Legendary Armor for simply auto-attacking the boss once? What do you mean with this? Again, a lot of smoke, but no fire. Would you be so kind to explain a bit more about this? Do you want story/easy mode raids to actually give out the full rewards or not? But then you'll have to actually explain why people deserve the same rewards of a higher difficulty mode for doing less on an easier difficulty mode. See we're coming back to this again.

    Also "buying raids" isn't exactly the same as actually doing the raids, that much is true, you still have to pay for a service. And raid-sellers do not need to pressure Anet into doing anything here, because their official stance is that they condone the activity because people are free to choose how to spend their own time and gold. If a group of players want to sell raids, that's fine. If people want to buy raids, that's fine. It's like with the old "Droknar runs" in GW1. That was fine too, i don't see how that should change now. So feel free to "I start buying the "people should adhere to higher standards" argument once the raid community actively pressures A-Net to do something against raid sellers" as long as you want, but that's never going to change. So like...that's just your opinion man.

  • Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Vinceman.4572 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:
    Mate, it is accepted in the EU, I'm in EU and I have been pugging like that for months. Please don't tell me it's just luck, that's rubbish. There probably are groups which won't accept VitV as credentials enough to give you a shot, but they are very, VERY small minority.

    You're making the mistake that you only look on your site. Subjective bias. Streamers proving a different picture. Yes, there are groups that take you instantly with VitV and nothing else but the overwhelming majority asks for a decent amount of kps and doesn't care about VitV as it clearly shows nothing. I usually disagree with your post but here you are predominantly wrong. :)

    From my experience most groups accept VitV alone.
    Every week I pug w5 and I just say I donated all the kp to guild hall but have VitV to show and never got rejected.

    Now tell me did u only see 1 streamer get kicked or have you seen multiple streamers getting kicked?

    Maybe that streamer had some elitist attitude and the commander didn't want that kind of player.
    Some players think they are special just because they are in a "famous" guild.

  • Tails.9372Tails.9372 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 14, 2018

    @Digit.1823 said:
    It made absolute sense because of this quote.

    Nothing of this implies that "people should get the exact same amount of rewards for every difficulty", in fact I explicitly stated that they should get less which is why you don't have a point here. You're just reading stuff into it while also ignoring what the post you quoted actually said wich is on you.

    @Digit.1823 said:
    You follow it up saying that reduced rewards like fractals are the way to go, but what in your opinion are reduced rewards like fractals?

    Completing the content on a lower difficulty gets you a significantly reduced amount of the exact same time-gated stuff and some items drop less frequently. If that doesn't make any sense to you then I don't know what to tell you as it is a rather simple concept to grasp.

    @Digit.1823 said:
    prestige is an immensely poor argument

    I agree but I'm not the one using it as an argument so what's your point?

    @Digit.1823 said:
    they can work their way up to normal mode and claim the main rewards in the intended difficulty mode

    As I said earlier those who only care about rewards are just going to ignore the lower difficulties.

    @Digit.1823 said:
    "Legendary items are participation rewards, nothing more"? ... What do you mean with this?

    I already mentioned it earlier but seems like you didn't actually read my other posts (despide you claiming otherwise): they're long term goals to keep players engaged with the content.

    @Digit.1823 said:
    Also "buying raids" isn't exactly the same as actually doing the raids, that much is true

    Then why should they "deserve" better rewards than someone who actually did put at least some effort into it? Because they paid money which they got from content that's even easier than that? You asked about "what people deserve" but at the same time don't seem to have any problems with stuff like this, seems like your complaints are rather empty. The whole question can also be flipped on its head: Why should they deserve fundamentally different rewards on a higher difficulty mode when the core content is essentially the same and (like you said) prestige is not an argument? To make higher difficulties more rewarding? That would also be coverd by a substantial increase in quantity.

    @Digit.1823 said:
    And raid-sellers do not need to pressure Anet into doing anything here, because their official stance is that they condone the activity because people are free to choose how to spend their own time and gold. If a group of players want to sell raids, that's fine. If people want to buy raids, that's fine. It's like with the old "Droknar runs" in GW1. That was fine too, i don't see how that should change now.

    So what? This reply doesn't even make any sense as I was referring to the people who complain about the "value" of their precious prestige items as a symbol of personal skill being tarnished by something like an easy mode while at the same time not having any problem with raid selling whatsoever. How you get from "I don't take people who are not consistent about their self proclaimed standards seriously" to "A-Net should do something about raid selling" is beyond me.

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Ze Dos Cavalos.6132 said:
    Now tell me did u only see 1 streamer get kicked or have you seen multiple streamers getting kicked?
    Maybe that streamer had some elitist attitude and the commander didn't want that kind of player.
    Some players think they are special just because they are in a "famous" guild.

    Nah, multiple streamers.

  • Sarrs.4831Sarrs.4831 Member ✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    Whoa this thread's still going. I suppose I shouldn't be surprised.

    How many people have actually put their foot forward to get into raids? I halfway want to gear up for it; probably make Ascended Grieving weapons and armor for Reaper, with what I think is minmaxed, just to see how much I can pull.

  • Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Tails.9372 said:

    @Digit.1823 said:
    You follow it up saying that reduced rewards like fractals are the way to go, but what in your opinion are reduced rewards like fractals?

    Completing the content on a lower difficulty gets you a significantly reduced amount of the exact same time-gated stuff and some items drop less frequently. If that doesn't make any sense to you then I don't know what to tell you as it is a rather simple concept to grasp.

    I'm glad we can finally get to the core of your argument so i can ignore all the other fluff and smoke. Because nitpicking my comment and ranting isn't helping the conversation move forward.

    So it basically boils down to you saying: Story/easy mode raids should get all the rewards, albeit in a reduced fashion and lowered drop chance. Sound about right?

    I'm pretty sure this conversation has played out before in this 4k+ post mega thread, either between other people or maybe even between you and someone else and others have already stated why this shouldn't happen. I say shouldn't because hey, Anet might cave and give in to the demands, who knows.

    Unfortunately this is not how the reward structure of raids works right now in regards to LI or Legendary Armor. In programming language it would be between 1's and 0's:

    • You can work towards Legendary Armor and get LI's = 1
    • You can't work towards Legendary Armor and get LI's = 0

    Even if you time-gate it more by making it so that only a full wing clear gets you 1 LI, or killing a boss get's you 1/10th of an LI is not a valid reason for giving a watered down version of the current format all the rewards available. Again this is players proceeding to get equally rewarded for putting in less effort, which is logically unfair. Merely making it more time-gated means sure they will take longer, but considering they will beat bosses more quickly and easily because bosses will have less hp/less damage/more forgiving mechanics or players get buffed so they do more damage makes the effort of actually doing/clearing the raids significantly easier.

    Currently LI's are also very bad to consider as currency considering you only get 1 per boss anyway and it is as of this post only used in the making of Legendary Armor, it literally serves no other purpose then that. They are also stored in the material storage and not the wallet, making it seem that Anet also does not consider LI's currency. It's not like as you say with fractals where Tier 1 nets you like 5 - 8 fractal relics per completed level. And Tier 4 nets you around 18 - 20 relics which you can use to buy a plethora of items from the various fractal vendors. The difference between the two should be clear, unless of course you also want to talk about magnetite shards etc.

    If there is anything incorrect here please feel free to elaborate further on your concept of reduced rewards in raids.

  • Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    Raids as and of themselves do not make anet money. Raids are actually a huge drain on resources as they arent monetized. They one and only purpose is to keep people who are bored with casual play, and like hardcore content playing the game, and therefore spending money on the gemstore. These people would otherwise leave and take their money with them. Casual players dont need raids to keep playing. They might want them, but they arent going to leave because they feel raids are inaccessible. Therefore for anet its a TOTAL waste to make easy modes.

    That being said, if Anet did decide that the goodwill from the casual playerbase would be enough of a ROI somehow, I would seriously hope they would use the living story team to work on easy mode. I personally would leave the game out of pure boredom if each raid wing took 2 years to come out because the team was trying to balance 2 modes instead of 1.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids have problems, but we need a better solution

    @zombyturtle.5980 said:
    Raids as and of themselves do not make anet money.

    In a way, Raids do make Anet money because they are locked behind expansions, you cannot access the Raids without buying the appropriate expansion first. This means, at the very least, happy Raiders will keep on buying expansions to play the next Raids. This is also a huge reason why each expansion's Raids should have their own unique rewards (Heart of Thorns gets Envoy Armor, Path of Fire Coalescence). There was a way to mix the two, getting Legendary Insights from Path of Fire Raids, but that's gone and now Raids are how they should be, each expansion being separate.

    IF you want to look at content that IS an actual drain and is not monetized, that's Fractals, PVP and WVW, you can play all these just fine, even on a free account, with the only "problem" being access to the Elite Specializations (and some higher end agony buffs).

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids have problems, but we need a better solution

    @Tails.9372 said:
    Completing the content on a lower difficulty gets you a significantly reduced amount of the exact same time-gated stuff and some items drop less frequently.

    That's not how Fractal rewards work. There are lots of rewards that do not drop at all at lower tiers. From the ascended materials, Glob of Coagulated Mists Essence drop at 26+, Shard of Crystallized Mists Essence drop at 51+, to other unique rewards, Ascended Salvage Tools, Infused Ascended Rings and T7 materials start dropping at 26+, Ascended Salvage Kits, Ascended Accessories, Gold Fractal relics (time-gated stuff) and Gold Fractal Weapons start dropping at 51+, Celestial Infusions drop only at 76+ and even further, Unstable Cosmic Essences (another time-gated item) drop only in Shattered Observatory challenge mode.

    Giving all the Raid rewards to an easy mode but at a reduced pace isn't following the Fractal reward system.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    We need an easy mode, but not a hard mode

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Tails.9372 said:
    Completing the content on a lower difficulty gets you a significantly reduced amount of the exact same time-gated stuff and some items drop less frequently.

    That's not how Fractal rewards work. There are lots of rewards that do not drop at all at lower tiers. From the ascended materials, Glob of Coagulated Mists Essence drop at 26+, Shard of Crystallized Mists Essence drop at 51+, to other unique rewards, Ascended Salvage Tools, Infused Ascended Rings and T7 materials start dropping at 26+, Ascended Salvage Kits, Ascended Accessories, Gold Fractal relics (time-gated stuff) and Gold Fractal Weapons start dropping at 51+, Celestial Infusions drop only at 76+ and even further, Unstable Cosmic Essences (another time-gated item) drop only in Shattered Observatory challenge mode.

    Giving all the Raid rewards to an easy mode but at a reduced pace isn't following the Fractal reward system.

    Notice how most of the stuff you mentioned can still be acquired, just indirectly, and celestial infusions and unstable cosmic essences are tied to CM content, which is basically separate subsystem from the rest of the fractals and doesn't have any lower tier versions.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 18, 2018
    Raids have problems, but we need a better solution

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Notice how most of the stuff you mentioned can still be acquired, just indirectly, and celestial infusions and unstable cosmic essences are tied to CM content, which is basically separate subsystem from the rest of the fractals and doesn't have any lower tier versions.

    Because those aren't exclusive Fractal rewards yes with the exception of the Golden Weapons and Golden Weapon Tokens that are impossible to acquire outside running 51+ Fractals. As for the CM content, I believe Raids are harder than CM of Fractals, and this proposed easy mode for everyone would be T1 fractals. Since CM have unique rewards compared to T1 Fractals, it stands to reason that normal Raids (CM-like) will have unique rewards compared to an easy mode of Raids (T1-like).

    edit: The lower tier version of Shattered Observatory CM is... Shattered Observatory T1,T2,T3 and T4.. what do you expect them to make an easy mode of Shattered Observatory CM? That doesn't make any kind of sense.

  • Tails.9372Tails.9372 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 18, 2018

    @Digit.1823 said:
    Again this is players proceeding to get equally rewarded for putting in less effort, which is logically unfair.

    Going by that logic 1 copper is just as rewarding as 100 gold cause "you can just work your way up", this might be how you feel about it but getting more rewards is factually not the same as getting "equally rewarded".

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    ... drop only in Shattered Observatory challenge mode

    Except I stated that I'm talking about "non specific participation rewards", Unstable Cosmic Essence is not a general reward for the overarching content.

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    Golden Weapons ... are impossible to acquire outside running 51+ Fractals.

    No they aren't, you can use Pristine Fractal Relics to buy Golden Fractal Relics which in turn can be used to buy Gold Fractal weapons.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids have problems, but we need a better solution

    @Tails.9372 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    ... drop only in Shattered Observatory challenge mode

    Except I stated that I'm talking about "non specific participation rewards", Unstable Cosmic Essence is not a general reward for the overarching content.

    Shattered Observatory challenge mode is the current Raids, T1 Fractals is the easy Raids. There is a reason the CM version has exclusive rewards, similar concept, the "CM" of Raids will get exclusive rewards compared to the easy mode. IT's not such a hard concept to understand.

  • Tails.9372Tails.9372 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 18, 2018

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Tails.9372 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    ... drop only in Shattered Observatory challenge mode

    Except I stated that I'm talking about "non specific participation rewards", Unstable Cosmic Essence is not a general reward for the overarching content.

    Shattered Observatory challenge mode is the current Raids, T1 Fractals is the easy Raids. There is a reason the CM version has exclusive rewards, similar concept, the "CM" of Raids will get exclusive rewards compared to the easy mode. IT's not such a hard concept to understand.

    And that's where you're wrong, there's no difference in what you can get by playing T1-4 fractals and CM fractals are not required for any of the general fractal rewards just like how CM raids are not required for any of the general raid rewards. I'm not talking about special sub content specific rewards like titles and stuff. Like you said: it's not such a hard concept to understand.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 18, 2018
    Raids have problems, but we need a better solution

    @Tails.9372 said:
    And that's where you're wrong, there's no difference in what you can get by playing T1-4 fractals and CM fractals are not required for any of the general fractal rewards just like how CM raids are not required for any of the general raid rewards. I'm not talking about special sub content specific rewards like titles and stuff. Like you said: it's not such a hard concept to understand.

    CMs of fractals have unique rewards... they are not special "sub content" rewards, they are rewards of Fractals, in their CM version. Why would Legendary Insights work like Fractal Relics and not Unstable Cosmic Essences? Why do you call Legendary Insights "general rewards"? There is no easy version out to give that meaning to the Legendary Insights, they could very easily be the unique reward of Normal mode to differentiate it from easy mode, same way as Unstable Cosmic Essences make the difference between T1-4 and CM in Fractals.

    CM versions of Raids don't have extra unique rewards so as not to segregate the playerbase of Raids. If they did have unique rewards then the normal version of Raids would suffer as the more experienced raiders would move ahead, it's a tricky subject. But this easy mode won't have this issue so it can't have only a subset of the rewards of normal mode just fine.

  • Digit.1823Digit.1823 Member ✭✭
    edited October 18, 2018
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Tails.9372 said:

    @Digit.1823 said:
    Again this is players proceeding to get equally rewarded for putting in less effort, which is logically unfair.

    Going by that logic 1 copper is just as rewarding as 100 gold cause "you can just work your way up", this might be how you feel about it but getting more rewards is factually not the same as getting "equally rewarded".

    I was directly replying to this following statement of yours: "Completing the content on a lower difficulty gets you a significantly reduced amount of the exact same time-gated stuff and some items drop less frequently." Which you can find it my previous reply in this thread. I was specifically talking about the "time-gated stuff" that you mention.

    How you go from that to this completely unrelated comparison about copper and gold is something i will truthfully have to admit i cannot grasp. The monetary currency used in GW2 has nothing at all to do with the time-gated items in raids like LI or magnetite shards because copper/silver/gold is not time-gated, you can get that from everything you do. From events to killing monsters to selling the items that you get from playing the game. Heck, you even get gold as well as LI and magnetite shards when killing raids bosses.

    Do you even notice that you are ignoring a large part of a well structured reply, ripping out and nit-picking a single tiny sentence out of it, and then replying with something so out of context that simply reading it confused me greatly. It's like you forgot our entire exchange that happened before this post and turned it into a completely new conversation.

    If you feel that people are misunderstanding your concept of what "reduced amount of the exact same time-gated stuff" means then for the love of all please elaborate further. Give us details on how you think it should be done then, and then maybe we could actually move the conversation forward.

    Things like:

    • Should story/easy mode raids give out the time-gated boss collection items for the legendary armor?
    • How much LI should you get from story/easy mode raids or should we even get LI at all?
    • What do you mean with "items drop less frequently"? Is it a flat 50% less chance or more/less? Maybe something else you're thinking of?
    • Should the magnetite shards be rewarded on boss kills in story/easy mode raids and if so then how much should it give?
    • Should the cap on magnetite shards in story/easy mode raids be the same as normal mode (150) or do you want the cap to be lower like 50?

    If you would just explain what you mean then maybe people wouldn't have such a hard time understanding you. Being and remaining vague helps no-one.

  • Tails.9372Tails.9372 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 18, 2018

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    CMs of fractals have unique rewards... they are not special "sub content" rewards, they are rewards of Fractals, in their CM version.

    Specific to the fractal in question.

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    Why would Legendary Insights work like Fractal Relics and not Unstable Cosmic Essences? Why do you call Legendary Insights "general rewards"?

    Because they don't require you to beat the CM version of a specific raid. They're rewards for killing a raid boss regardless of difficulty, nothing more.

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    CM versions of Raids don't have extra unique rewards so as not to segregate the playerbase of Raids. If they did have unique rewards then the normal version of Raids would suffer as the more experienced raiders would move ahead

    And yet every other content works like that and those who are playing the more difficult content generally want this divide to happen, A-Net failing to make harder content more rewarding is on them and it wouldn't be that much of a problem if more people were playing this kind of content which is something an easy mode could ease them into.

    @Digit.1823 said:
    How you go from that to this completely unrelated comparison about copper and gold is something i will truthfully have to admit i cannot grasp.

    Because you put things out of context which again is on you.

    @Digit.1823 said:
    The monetary currency used in GW2 has nothing at all to do with the time-gated items in raids like LI or magnetite shards because copper/silver/gold is not time-gated

    Which is irrelevant as your argument was "getting more rewards is not more rewarding".

    @Digit.1823 said:
    Do you even notice that you are ignoring a large part of a well structured reply, ripping out and nit-picking a single tiny sentence out of it

    I merely cut out all the smoke and fluff and got to the core of your argument.

    @Digit.1823 said:
    and then replying with something so out of context that simply reading it confused me greatly

    How so? The (like you said) "philosophy of fairness" which you were referring back to is the basis of the argument I've responded to and that's all the context there is to it.

    @Digit.1823 said:
    Give us details on how you think it should be done then

    I don't have to give specific numbers as it's irrelevant for my argument and I already gave a reference. Again: the rewards should be high enough that acquiring the end result is still realistically possible (as in "not having to wonder if the game is still up by the time it would take you to acquire X") but low enough that everyone who got the hang of it gladly switches to a higher difficulty mode. Anything beyond that is something I either already adessed in a previous post (which you claimed to have read) or something I couldn't care less about (like the exact number of magnetite shards for each difficulty level).

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids have problems, but we need a better solution

    @Tails.9372 said:
    Specific to the fractal in question.

    Irrelevant. The LI are also specific to Heart of Thorns Raids.

    Because they don't require you to beat the CM version of a specific raid. They're rewards for killing a raid boss regardless of difficulty, nothing more.

    You are mistaken. They are rewards for killing a Raid boss in Normal or Above difficulty, nothing more. Easy mode doesn't exist. There is absolutely no reason to have the same rewards in an easy mode and goes against the Fractal system. When they added a new tier in Fractals (CM) it has its own specific/unique rewards. The opposite, when they add a new version of Raids (the easy version) is also true, they need to remove access to some of the rewards to keep them exclusive to the higher difficulty content. Same principle/content as Fractals really.

    And yet every other content works like that and those who are playing the more difficult content generally want this divide to happen, A-Net failing to make harder content more rewarding is on them and it wouldn't be that much of a problem if more people were playing this kind of content which is something an easy mode could ease them into.

    It's irrelevant what happens in other types of content. You can check fractals as the mid tiers are mostly wastelands. I'd argue that T4 would also be a wasteland if every fractal had a CM and running CM counted for the daily recommended.

  • Tails.9372Tails.9372 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    Irrelevant.

    So you're being dismissive because it disproves your argument?

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    The LI are also specific to Heart of Thorns Raids.

    And yet they are still overarching rewards for the related content just like Unbound Magic for S3 and Volatile Magic for S4 which (unlike a singe fractal) is not overly specific.

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    You are mistaken. They are rewards for killing a Raid boss in Normal or Above difficulty

    So for all difficulty modes.

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    There is absolutely no reason to have the same rewards in an easy mode and goes against the Fractal system. When they added a new tier in Fractals (CM) it has its own specific/unique rewards. The opposite, when they add a new version of Raids (the easy version) is also true, they need to remove access to some of the rewards to keep them exclusive to the higher difficulty content. Same principle/content as Fractals really.

    Not quite, CM stands as separate content and like I said I don't have any problems with sub content specific rewards but if you want to make an apt comparison then low tier fractals to "easy mode" raids (or whatever they want to call it) and high tier fractals to "normal mode" raids would be more fitting.

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    It's irrelevant what happens in other types of content. You can check fractals as the mid tiers are mostly wastelands. I'd argue that T4 would also be a wasteland if every fractal had a CM and running CM counted for the daily recommended.

    It's very relevant as this seems to be the reason why they don't want to "segregate the playerbase of Raids".

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids have problems, but we need a better solution

    @Tails.9372 said:
    So you're being dismissive because it disproves your argument?

    No I dismiss it because it has nothing to do with my argument.

    So for all difficulty modes.

    That exist now. For a mode that doesn't even exist though? It's far fetched to call the rewards "general" for a future difficulty mode. Besides, T1 Fractals don't have access to many of the rewards that I outlined earlier. Similar principle.

    Not quite, CM stands as separate content and like I said I don't have any problems with sub content specific rewards but if you want to make an apt comparison then low tier fractals to "easy mode" raids (or whatever they want to call it) and high tier fractals to "normal mode" raids would be more fitting.

    CM isn't separate content, it's the same content. The fitting, and only sensible comparison, is CM T4 Fractals with T1 Fractals, there isn't any other valid comparison here.Shattered Observatory T1 IS an easy version of Shattered Observatory CM, and they give access to different types of rewards. Exact same system can be used in Raids.

    It's very relevant as this seems to be the reason why they don't want to "segregate the playerbase of Raids".

    It's not. They are different types of content with different playerbase. Remember when daily and recommended fractals didn't exist Fractals outside T4 was a total wasteland. Do we really want to add separate for normal Raids and CM Raids?

  • Blaeys.3102Blaeys.3102 Member ✭✭✭
    We need both easy and hard modes

    As an update - according to this poll (which is probably the most responded too poll ever in these forums), more than 2/3 of the respondents feel raids need work, with 57 percent (as of today) advocating for the inclusion of easier modes.

    Again, it isn't likely to happen for a number of reasons (developer reticience, lack of resources, requiring a philosophical change at Anet), but it is interesting to see that, even here on the raiding subforum (where you can assume there are fewer non-raiders visiting), the numbers are that heavily in favor of that kind of change.

    People (the same 2-3 that always do) can argue with that all they want, but the numbers are there for anyone who bothers to actually see them.

  • Xantaria.8726Xantaria.8726 Member ✭✭✭
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @Blaeys.3102 said:
    As an update - according to this poll (which is probably the most responded too poll ever in these forums), more than 2/3 of the respondents feel raids need work, with 57 percent (as of today) advocating for the inclusion of easier modes.

    Again, it isn't likely to happen for a number of reasons (developer reticience, lack of resources, requiring a philosophical change at Anet), but it is interesting to see that, even here on the raiding subforum (where you can assume there are fewer non-raiders visiting), the numbers are that heavily in favor of that kind of change.

    People (the same 2-3 that always do) can argue with that all they want, but the numbers are there for anyone who bothers to actually see them.

    Which are quite questionable since only a small amount of players are active here.
    I would be far more interessed in an actual poll from anet, with a notification ingame about that poll so we can for the love of god have solid numbers for anything. 99% of this forums numbers or meassurements are pure speculation. Basing anything on it, being easy mode raids, new meta, the halloween event impression or whatever, is not really a solid argument and i would highly question it if anet would actual base deccisions on such small, unrepresantive polls.

  • Blaeys.3102Blaeys.3102 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 23, 2018
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @Xantaria.8726 said:

    @Blaeys.3102 said:
    As an update - according to this poll (which is probably the most responded too poll ever in these forums), more than 2/3 of the respondents feel raids need work, with 57 percent (as of today) advocating for the inclusion of easier modes.

    Again, it isn't likely to happen for a number of reasons (developer reticience, lack of resources, requiring a philosophical change at Anet), but it is interesting to see that, even here on the raiding subforum (where you can assume there are fewer non-raiders visiting), the numbers are that heavily in favor of that kind of change.

    People (the same 2-3 that always do) can argue with that all they want, but the numbers are there for anyone who bothers to actually see them.

    Which are quite questionable since only a small amount of players are active here.
    I would be far more interessed in an actual poll from anet, with a notification ingame about that poll so we can for the love of god have solid numbers for anything. 99% of this forums numbers or meassurements are pure speculation. Basing anything on it, being easy mode raids, new meta, the halloween event impression or whatever, is not really a solid argument and i would highly question it if anet would actual base deccisions on such small, unrepresantive polls.

    The poll is almost a year old - more than enough time to garner the number of responses it has received. And while it is based on a limited sample size, I think it is probably statistically relevant.

    Regardless, it has been here long enough and garnered enough responses to warrant attention, even if action is unrealistic due to resources. It shows that, among those who care enough to express an opinion, there is a significant percentage (more than 3/4) interested in something beyond what we have now with more than half of total respondents interested in a more casual experience in the game mode. Again, the community can continue to discuss related points and details. but the numbers are there and pretty clear.

  • Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    Said it before, will say it again. Raids are super super super easy. Even qadim and dhuum.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids have problems, but we need a better solution

    @Blaeys.3102 said:
    It shows that, among those who care enough to express an opinion, there is a significant percentage (more than 3/4) interested in something beyond what we have now with more than half of total respondents interested in a more casual experience in the game mode. Again, the community can continue to discuss related points and details. but the numbers are there and pretty clear.

    Blindly voting on a poll doesn't equal expressing an opinion. It's when you provide arguments over your choice that you are actually expressing an opinion, and there is a discussion. It should come as no surprise that people would vote for making things easier for them. If you ask "should we get a free precursor as our 7th birthday" you'd get mostly "yes" votes, it's in the nature of online polls to heavily lean towards change, especially when it comes to making things easier.

  • Blaeys.3102Blaeys.3102 Member ✭✭✭
    We need both easy and hard modes

    Not sure what is blind about the poll. The options seem well defined.

    Trying to argue it away with strawman fallacies (and yes, that term applies here) wont make the numbers go away.

    Of course, continuing the debate and discussion is healthy, but I think it is important that Anet see these numbers and what they represent. If additional resources ever do become available for further raid development, the (albeit slight) majority of those willing to respond on this subforum see value in moving to a more tiered difficulty model that includes a more casual experience alongside one for harder core players.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Blaeys.3102 said:
    It shows that, among those who care enough to express an opinion, there is a significant percentage (more than 3/4) interested in something beyond what we have now with more than half of total respondents interested in a more casual experience in the game mode. Again, the community can continue to discuss related points and details. but the numbers are there and pretty clear.

    Blindly voting on a poll doesn't equal expressing an opinion. It's when you provide arguments over your choice that you are actually expressing an opinion, and there is a discussion. It should come as no surprise that people would vote for making things easier for them. If you ask "should we get a free precursor as our 7th birthday" you'd get mostly "yes" votes, it's in the nature of online polls to heavily lean towards change, especially when it comes to making things easier.

    Opinion: a view or judgment formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge.

  • Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Blaeys.3102 said:
    Not sure what is blind about the poll. The options seem well defined.

    Trying to argue it away with strawman fallacies (and yes, that term applies here) wont make the numbers go away.

    Problem is, a lot of players avoid the forum heavily... also, how many of those that voted actually raid? Raids are super super easy. Plus, the developers have said, these are not meant to have an easy mode, it’s meant to be harder content.

    Of course, continuing the debate and discussion is healthy, but I think it is important that Anet see these numbers and what they represent. If additional resources ever do become available for further raid development, the (albeit slight) majority of those willing to respond on this subforum see value in moving to a more tiered difficulty model that includes a more casual experience alongside one for harder core players.

    Once more, the devs have said they designed these to be more difficult. Even still they are incredibly easy. I cannot tell you how many streams I’ve seen of people who are BUTCHERING their class and build, yet pass with ease. The dps checks are super light (baring dhuum/largos) and the mechanics are fairly simple. We know this by the vast amount of people learning raids in the discord training servers, and getting kills.

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