Thieves ruin WvW

[TorQ.7041]

@Fat Disgrace.4275 said:

@geist.4126 said:

@TorQ.7041 said:

@gebrechen.5643 said:Options:

• delete the ability to undo reveal
• set revealed to 5s
• make stealth cost 50% of your energy

choose one ore all of the above and apply patch.

So you basically want to go up to them and killed them very easily in 2 hits. Then it's no longer op. Maybe they should also Nerf the defense mechanic of all other professions except the one you play. Blocks for guard, shroud for necro, clones for mes etc.

Then once every thing else dies from you because they have zero defense then there is balance.

None of those mentioned things destroys the class. Thieves still have a by far greater toolkit for escape than other classes around and they don't have to sacrifice anything for it - they can even run full berserker gear - which no other build can.

Seen warriors necros and even some revs. Rangers and holos use beserker gear then slap in some marurder to get 20k health or something.

It's mostly the de that will run the 11k full beserker gear.

Thievs need iniaitve to escape and rifle is pretty heavy on it too, also sword mirage and easily keep up the pace so can holo with rocket boots and rifle (more then enough time to either waste the thievs initiative or to even land killing blows on the thief)

Agreed. Excatly. It's crazy these people hate on the class but never played it and assume it has the same mobility as daredevil while being able to perma stealth and deal massive damage.

[TorQ.7041]

@geist.4126 said:

@TorQ.7041 said:

@gebrechen.5643 said:Options:

• delete the ability to undo reveal
• set revealed to 5s
• make stealth cost 50% of your energy

choose one ore all of the above and apply patch.

So you basically want to go up to them and killed them very easily in 2 hits. Then it's no longer op. Maybe they should also Nerf the defense mechanic of all other professions except the one you play. Blocks for guard, shroud for necro, clones for mes etc.

Then once every thing else dies from you because they have zero defense then there is balance.

None of those mentioned things destroys the class. Thieves still have a by far greater toolkit for escape than other classes around and they don't have to sacrifice anything for it - they can even run full berserker gear - which no other build can.

Neither of what you said is true. A core thief and daredevil that's not deadeye has the mobility to escape yes, but it doesn't have the damage output. Dagger auto attack is 500dmg... And 1k crit. Sword thief is 1k auto and 2.5k crit. So we can count that out.

Only a deadeye has that dmg out put you are so annoyed about.

Then realized that the mobility of a deadeye is basically zero if he wants to use his intiative to shoot u. At Max a deadeye has 15 initiative. 3 round burst cost 6. It basically needs to shoot 2x 3 round bursts to get deaths judgement to get u. If u dodge any of the 2 rounds he doesn't get deaths judgement.

If u can teleport to him and aoe he is basically dead. I can attest to this because I ve done it alot on guardian on rev and core thief...I am certain mes can teleport and aoe which I assume you are because of your icon.

The other 1 shot build is with dagger. Which I admit I also agree is stuipd. But it means it has no steal to teleport to stab u. It had to walk over to u and stand behind u to do it. As long as u don't stand still it's very unlikely he can get u.

But non of this actually makes sense to u because in your mind there is only 1 thing and that's hate.

Make a deadeye and go full zerk n see. U will mostly die as many times u kill ppl.

Secondly. One shot mes similar if not even better disengage. It can one shot u from stealth. With high evade, clones, stealth and teleport. It's auto attack is 4k 5k 7k and it's one shot burst even if it misses it's mark is still 10k.

[Etterwyn.5263]

@googel.3278 said:assassins and mesmers are the ultimate abomination to the game.

So nothing has changed since GW1 then. =)

[MithranArkanere.8957]

What we need is stealth decay.The main problems with stealth is that they can be spammed, stacked, and the longer it lasts, the wider the area in which a thief can be becomes. The larger this area, the harder it is predict where the thief may be.

After 1-2 seconds of receiving stealth, it should decay from fully invisible to partially visible.

If this stealth decay is introduced, stealth could last way longer, but no longer be stackable.

While under decayed stealth, stealth attacks still work, it's still not possible to target them, player-controlled AI and NPCs still ignore them (except maybe those of elite or higher NPC rank), but at least you can see better where they are to hit them with AoEs and cleaves, and manually aimed projectiles.

Then, the full invisibility would reset while receiving stealth from skills that give stealth to self, but not when granted stealth by someone else, or by getting stealth from a skill combo. Those would only give decayed stealth while already under stealth.Stealth from others and from a combo field would only give full invisibility if it's obtained while not under stealth.

This would even allow increasing stealth durations a whole lot, since the period of full invisibility would be controlled and limited to the start of the duration, so it would even be possible to have an elite thief signet that gives passive decayed stealth for 3s every 3s, and can be activated to gain full invisibility and become unrevealable for 2s.

[juno.1840]

@"MithranArkanere.8957" said:What we need is stealth decay.The main problems with stealth is that they can be spammed, stacked, and the longer it lasts, the wider the area in which a thief can be becomes. The larger this area, the harder it is predict where the thief may be.

Or cap it at a maximum duration like 2 seconds. If stealth is meant to be a combat mechanic, then there's no need to have a long duration. It becomes a mechanism to (1) break targeting, (2) gain position for attacks of opportunity, (3) use special stealth attack skills.

Combine the short duration with "unstackable" (so it cannot be reapplied while active) and pretty much all problems with stealth go away.

Finally rename the skill "vanish".

[geist.4126]

@"TorQ.7041" said:I really have had zero problems when I play Holo rev thief or guard vs deadeye. If u can leap or teleport to a DE and aoe. They r basically dead.

You shouldn't play vs. thieves that play with a steering wheel. Helps a lot.As already said. Longer reveal doesn't break thieves. Neither does a nerf for DE elite. Even if you do both thief will be top of the food chain in roaming. It's nice trying to derail this discussion every time your precious "no risc, high reward - class" gets called out, but it's getting old pretty fast.The fun part is that almost everything that really countered thieves has been nerfed in the last years, while thieves got a massive buff with the DE elite to their hardcounter (reveal)

And saying "deadeye has no mobility" is utterly stupid. He doesn't lose any mobility as a rifle DE vs a dagger DE.

[geist.4126]

@TorQ.7041 said:Make a deadeye and go full zerk n see. U will mostly die as many times u kill ppl.

Secondly. One shot mes similar if not even better disengage. It can one shot u from stealth. With high evade, clones, stealth and teleport. It's auto attack is 4k 5k 7k and it's one shot burst even if it misses it's mark is still 10k.

I played thief the whole weekend. Marauder gear, berserker/assassin trinkets. And I did exactly that with a d/d build. For five to six kills I did one time. The skill cap for this is between making coffee and sitting down in a chair if you can read your skill description and are not hunted by a larger group.

Yes, mesmer is stupid at this too, but we talk thieves here. Feel free to post this into a mesmer thread.

[TorQ.7041]

@geist.4126 said:

@"TorQ.7041" said:I really have had zero problems when I play Holo rev thief or guard vs deadeye. If u can leap or teleport to a DE and aoe. They r basically dead.

You shouldn't play vs. thieves that play with a steering wheel. Helps a lot.As already said. Longer reveal doesn't break thieves. Neither does a nerf for DE elite. Even if you do both thief will be top of the food chain in roaming. It's nice trying to derail this discussion every time your precious "no risc, high reward - class" gets called out, but it's getting old pretty fast.The fun part is that almost everything that really countered thieves has been nerfed in the last years, while thieves got a massive buff with the DE elite to their hardcounter (reveal)

And saying "deadeye has no mobility" is utterly stupid. He doesn't lose any mobility as a rifle DE vs a dagger DE.

Dude. Do you even know how thief works at all?

Core thief gets mobility from acrobatics that give perma swiftness. Daredevil line gives perma swiftness and triple dodge. Each dodge gets extra distance.

Deadeye has non of those things. I think you are thinking of shortbow. If you doing 2 3 round bursts from 15 intatiative that's 6x2=12. You have 3 intatiative. U can't possibly move into shortbow n run away. The best thing u can do is dodge roll into stealth.

Longer reveal doesn't break core thief because it doesn't use stealth anyway. But it will kill deadeye because deadeye basically has no defense. As deadeye u are also in crouch skill 5. Meaning u can only roll to the side.

Seriously man. Make one and play it before you comment. In the same way I made a one shot mes to see it's not prefect.

[TorQ.7041]

@geist.4126 said:

@"TorQ.7041" said:I really have had zero problems when I play Holo rev thief or guard vs deadeye. If u can leap or teleport to a DE and aoe. They r basically dead.

You shouldn't play vs. thieves that play with a steering wheel. Helps a lot.As already said. Longer reveal doesn't break thieves. Neither does a nerf for DE elite. Even if you do both thief will be top of the food chain in roaming. It's nice trying to derail this discussion every time your precious "no risc, high reward - class" gets called out, but it's getting old pretty fast.The fun part is that almost everything that really countered thieves has been nerfed in the last years, while thieves got a massive buff with the DE elite to their hardcounter (reveal)

And saying "deadeye has no mobility" is utterly stupid. He doesn't lose any mobility as a rifle DE vs a dagger DE.

Lol. Honestly everything that had countered thief has not been nerfed.

And no it's not my spec. I actually play daredevil thief 90% of the time and I have had no problems with deadeye. A mesmer should also have zero problems if you know how to play.

Let's just end this discussion. Because untill you actually go play it. You really have zero idea on what you are talking about.

Can you even name one specific trait line and or skill that let's u get out of crouch position and to instead escape instantly? No u can't because it doesn't exist. Deadeye basically presses skill 3 and skill 2 after skill 5. It's fixed and immobile. And you can only get out of crouch and move after a 1 second delay. This means the instant u teleport and aoe. A DE has to leave because it will need to block all it's cool down.

It also has only 1 Condi cleanse. U can go Condi mirage and mass clone. Ur clones will basically auto attack and kill it. Zero thinking required. Shorts on YouTube literally made a vid to show u u can make mass clones to auto condo attack.

U can make a deadeye and go 1v1. I guarantee u. U will die alot. All except necro... Cos necro has has zero defense against deadeye..

[TorQ.7041]

@geist.4126 said:

@TorQ.7041 said:Make a deadeye and go full zerk n see. U will mostly die as many times u kill ppl.

Secondly. One shot mes similar if not even better disengage. It can one shot u from stealth. With high evade, clones, stealth and teleport. It's auto attack is 4k 5k 7k and it's one shot burst even if it misses it's mark is still 10k.

I played thief the whole weekend. Marauder gear, berserker/assassin trinkets. And I did exactly that with a d/d build. For five to six kills I did one time. The skill cap for this is between making coffee and sitting down in a chair if you can read your skill description and are not hunted by a larger group.

Yes, mesmer is stupid at this too, but we talk thieves here. Feel free to post this into a mesmer thread.

I seriously doubt u did. Since u believe the mobility of a deadeye is the same as daredevil. In no world is it even remotely close. That's why it's not on meta as meta builds in pvp.

[MithranArkanere.8957]

@juno.1840 said:

@"MithranArkanere.8957" said:What we need is stealth decay.The main problems with stealth is that they can be spammed, stacked, and the longer it lasts, the wider the area in which a thief can be becomes. The larger this area, the harder it is predict where the thief may be.

Or cap it at a maximum duration like 2 seconds. If stealth is meant to be a combat mechanic, then there's no need to have a long duration. It becomes a mechanism to (1) break targeting, (2) gain position for attacks of opportunity, (3) use special stealth attack skills.

Combine the short duration with "unstackable" (so it cannot be reapplied while active) and pretty much all problems with stealth go away.

Finally rename the skill "vanish".

A hard cap would create issues a soft cap and decay would not.

There's places in the game in which players are actually meant to have longer stealth. Stealth decay and two types of stealth: one fully invisible, one partially invisible, solve those problems.

[TorQ.7041]

@geist.4126 said:

@TorQ.7041 said:Make a deadeye and go full zerk n see. U will mostly die as many times u kill ppl.

Secondly. One shot mes similar if not even better disengage. It can one shot u from stealth. With high evade, clones, stealth and teleport. It's auto attack is 4k 5k 7k and it's one shot burst even if it misses it's mark is still 10k.

I played thief the whole weekend. Marauder gear, berserker/assassin trinkets. And I did exactly that with a d/d build. For five to six kills I did one time. The skill cap for this is between making coffee and sitting down in a chair if you can read your skill description and are not hunted by a larger group.

Yes, mesmer is stupid at this too, but we talk thieves here. Feel free to post this into a mesmer thread.

I tell you what. Based on your rules. Reveal 5 seconds meaning u cannot stealth for 5 seconds each time. I will 1v1 you with every single class apart from necro.

I don't even know half the classes but I guarantee u I will win more than 50/50 of the time.

[Fat Disgrace.4275]

@TorQ.7041 said:

@geist.4126 said:

@TorQ.7041 said:Make a deadeye and go full zerk n see. U will mostly die as many times u kill ppl.

Secondly. One shot mes similar if not even better disengage. It can one shot u from stealth. With high evade, clones, stealth and teleport. It's auto attack is 4k 5k 7k and it's one shot burst even if it misses it's mark is still 10k.

I played thief the whole weekend. Marauder gear, berserker/assassin trinkets. And I did exactly that with a d/d build. For five to six kills I did one time. The skill cap for this is between making coffee and sitting down in a chair if you can read your skill description and are not hunted by a larger group.

Yes, mesmer is stupid at this too, but we talk thieves here. Feel free to post this into a mesmer thread.

I seriously doubt u did. Since u believe the mobility of a deadeye is the same as daredevil. In no world is it even remotely close. That's why it's not on meta as meta builds in pvp.

Actually, you could do this kinda dmg as core/daredevil thanks to assassins signet, yet another bull crap power creep buffs. Anyone 1 can pop assassin signet- steal - cnd - backstab

Any of the so called 1 shot or Insta kill builds require little skill tbh and all classes can do it - if built to do so.

[DemonSeed.3528]

Was messing with core necro today and it's hilarious because deadeyes are just dying with my life transfer.

[Turk.5460]

@geist.4126 said:they can even run full berserker gear - which no other build can.

Hi you must be new to WvW.Things that can run full berserker and be successful:

• Reaper
• Warrior
• Spellbreaker
• Ranger
• Druid
• Soulbeast
• Holosmith
• Mesmer
• Chronomancer
• Mirage
• Deadeye
• Dragonhunter

Things that can't:

• Necro
• Scourge
• Berserker
• Thief
• Daredevil
• Rev
• Herald
• Renegade
• Engi
• Scrapper
• Ele
• Tempest
• Weaver
• Guard
• Firebrand

[Aeolus.3615]

@Sylosi.6503 said:

@Aeolus.3615 said:

@DeceiverX.8361 said:

@kash.9213 said:

@Adamarc.7463 said:

@Turk.5460 said:

@"ProverbsofHell.2307" said:Sacrificing a utility JUST for thieves is insane imo.

Most DE builds are so dependent on Stealth, even just for a few seconds, that they are

required

to use Shadow Meld as their elite in case of Reveal.

Just shows how badly they are designed for WvW.

A bad design because a DE is pigeon holed into an elite skill or for some other reason? Any suggestions for a replacement?

Cough

Anything based on sustained stealth and/or capable of sustained stealth and safe burst damage is literally impossible to balance and make fun to play as/against based on how the combat in this game works.

The idea of more stealth on the thief, especially as a ranged burst damage dealer, never should have made it past the early stages of the drawing board.

The casuals need it, to overperform their capabilities as casuals.

As opposed to non-casuals who need a game that aims for them, is full of passives, is largely slow paced and is an imbalanced cheesefest where the meta cheese carries very, very hard and a game mode that is competitively dismal, to "overperform their capabilities".

Some players still find it skilled.... playing over performing classes/builds, due how poor care on Anet puts on the classes design, well game was ment to be just that...

[TorQ.7041]

@Fat Disgrace.4275 said:

@TorQ.7041 said:

@geist.4126 said:

@TorQ.7041 said:Make a deadeye and go full zerk n see. U will mostly die as many times u kill ppl.

Secondly. One shot mes similar if not even better disengage. It can one shot u from stealth. With high evade, clones, stealth and teleport. It's auto attack is 4k 5k 7k and it's one shot burst even if it misses it's mark is still 10k.

I played thief the whole weekend. Marauder gear, berserker/assassin trinkets. And I did exactly that with a d/d build. For five to six kills I did one time. The skill cap for this is between making coffee and sitting down in a chair if you can read your skill description and are not hunted by a larger group.

Yes, mesmer is stupid at this too, but we talk thieves here. Feel free to post this into a mesmer thread.

I seriously doubt u did. Since u believe the mobility of a deadeye is the same as daredevil. In no world is it even remotely close. That's why it's not on meta as meta builds in pvp.

Actually, you could do this kinda dmg as core/daredevil thanks to assassins signet, yet another bull crap power creep buffs. Anyone 1 can pop assassin signet- steal - cnd - backstab

Any of the so called 1 shot or Insta kill builds require little skill tbh and all classes can do it - if built to do so.

I said mobility.. also depending on what u are running. Even with power signet a backstab won't kill you. A default backstab is 6k with power signet maybe you can assume double. It won't kill any kind of build not wearing zerk. What does do instagib is deadeye with power signet and backstab because malice gives extra dmg.

For the record I don't like one hit kills at all. I also think it's skill less. I agree this should be nerfed for all classes but I think it needs to be nerfed in a way where who ever one the oppenent is gets an opportunity to react. If some one believes they are good enough to skillfully play in full zerk so be it but the other person should be given a chance to react.

[TorQ.7041]

@Turk.5460 said:

@"geist.4126" said:they can even run full berserker gear - which no other build can.

Hi you must be new to WvW.Things that

can

run full berserker and be successful:

• Reaper
• Warrior
• Spellbreaker
• Ranger
• Druid
• Soulbeast
• Holosmith
• Mesmer
• Chronomancer
• Mirage
• Deadeye
• Dragonhunter

Things that can't:

• Necro
• Scourge
• Berserker
• Thief
• Daredevil
• Rev
• Herald
• Renegade
• Engi
• Scrapper
• Ele
• Tempest
• Weaver
• Guard
• Firebrand

"This"

Explained it better than I can in less words lol.

[Lord Trejgon.2809]

@"geist.4126" said:I played thief the whole weekend. Marauder gear, berserker/assassin trinkets. And I did exactly that with a d/d build. For five to six kills I did one time. The skill cap for this is between making coffee and sitting down in a chair if you can read your skill description and are not hunted by a larger group.

dude told yout to try full berserker gear,you reply with marauder gear and berserker/assasin trinkets.

that's not full berserker.

(and I have seen roamers on the map complaining about marauder stat set how "OP" and "broken" it is on it's own.....)

[Noha.3749]

Thieves doesnt ruin WvW more than firebrand/scourge meta :p

Thieves might beat some professions 1v1, but they cant do much more than that. They are fast and bursty, thats it.

Firebrand/Scourge is 90% of the WvW community and just makes things REALLY boring. Worthless in 1v1 but dominates any XvX. All they do is cluttering the closest kilometers with red circles of dullness while chugging boons.

[geist.4126]

@Turk.5460 said:

@"geist.4126" said:they can even run full berserker gear - which no other build can.

Hi you must be new to WvW.Things that

can

run full berserker and be successful:

• Reaper
• Warrior
• Spellbreaker
• Ranger
• Druid
• Soulbeast
• Holosmith
• Mesmer
• Chronomancer
• Mirage
• Deadeye
• Dragonhunter

On NA maybe, where the skillfloor is somewhat beyone pressing 1,2 all the time. Maybe I let warrior count. "Can" isn't "I win 1 of 3 encounters".

[geist.4126]

@Lord Trejgon.2809 said:

@"geist.4126" said:I played thief the whole weekend. Marauder gear, berserker/assassin trinkets. And I did exactly that with a d/d build. For five to six kills I did one time. The skill cap for this is between making coffee and sitting down in a chair if you can read your skill description and are not hunted by a larger group.

dude told yout to try full berserker gear,you reply with marauder gear and berserker/assasin trinkets.

that's not full berserker.

(and I have seen roamers on the map complaining about marauder stat set how "OP" and "broken" it is on it's own.....)

If I had a full berserker set I'd run it. Marauder doesn't make a difference, when you most of the time oneshot people. It just helps when you need to run. The times I died on that project I wouldn't have died more with berserker than with 6 pieces marauder, because the opponent didn't hit me.That's the whole thing about thief. You are fast, you have tons of escape, you burst like no one else and have unlimited access to stealth. The marauder gear gives you 2k extra hp which is nothing if your main goal is not to get hit. (you lose ~6-7% crit)

[Turk.5460]

@geist.4126 said:

@Turk.5460 said:

@geist.4126 said:they can even run full berserker gear - which no other build can.

Hi you must be new to WvW.Things that

can

run full berserker and be successful:

• Reaper
• Warrior
• Spellbreaker
• Ranger
• Druid
• Soulbeast
• Holosmith
• Mesmer
• Chronomancer
• Mirage
• Deadeye
• Dragonhunter

On NA maybe, where the skillfloor is somewhat beyone pressing 1,2 all the time. Maybe I let warrior count. "Can" isn't "I win 1 of 3 encounters".

Generally I find that NA roamers are far more formidable than EU roamers. This is from my experience playing in both regions. I like your defensive stance on the matter though, it shows spirit! That will help as you gain experience playing in WvW. Full berserker is not recommended for newcomers to smallscale/roaming - you mostly have to be on top of your game and be very wary of enemy bursts, using your defenses and heals wisely.

[Trepidation Lost.3469]

It’s deadeye that’s broken at the moment, at least normally thief’s have to get close to do damage which presents a risk, deadeye completely negates this one weakness.

[Lord Huntsman.4691]

@oOStaticOo.9467 said:I still say that Thieves should have 2 modes. Stealth/Mobility mode where they can run around without being seen and scout but not attack. Attack mode where they can attack and have some mobility but no Stealth.

BEST IDEA EVER