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Do raids need easy/normal/hard difficulty mode? [merged]


Lonami.2987

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@Feanor.2358 said:It doesn't, but read again what I said. No matter how hard solo content you want to make, you can always create harder group content.So? You are comparing actual, existing content with a theoretical, nonexisting one. Obviously, such comparison will always show what you want it to show, but it doesn't really have any meaning. In theory, you can also create a solo content so hard, that no group content could ever be meaningfully more difficult (because once you get to the point noone is able to pass, any increase in difficulty is meaningless). Again, so what? Such comparisons do not prove anything.

@Feanor.2358 said:No they aren't. Not even close. Nobody cares if you have TBL or Kingslayer. VitV? That gives you a free pass almost everywhere.That's because your "everywhere" happens to be limited to mostly raid content. Outside of them most players do not really care about it (or even know what that title is for). And even in raids it's not a "free pass", at best it can make people not insist on you linking KPs (and sometimes not even that). Make a mistake, and you will get treated the same as someone without the title, though.

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@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:It doesn't, but read again what I said. No matter how hard solo content you want to make, you can
always
create harder group content.So? You are comparing actual, existing content with a theoretical, nonexisting one. Obviously, such comparison will always show what you want it to show, but it doesn't really have any meaning. In theory, you can also create a solo content so hard, that no group content could ever be meaningfully more difficult (because once you get to the point noone is able to pass, any increase in difficulty is meaningless). Again, so what? Such comparisons do not prove anything.

No, here I was comparing non-existing content with other non-existing. The statement was about theoretical maximums. The comparison of existing vs existing content I already did. And it shows exactly the same.

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:No they aren't. Not even close. Nobody cares if you have TBL or Kingslayer. VitV? That gives you a free pass almost everywhere.That's because your "everywhere" happens to be limited to mostly raid content. Outside of them most players do not really care about it (or even know what that title is for). And even in raids it's not a "free pass", at best it can make people not insist on you linking KPs (and sometimes not even that). Make a mistake, and you will get treated the same as someone without the title, though.

Which is more than you can say about the solo titles. For them you only have your own subjective opinion. Statistics back me up and objective facts - which you admit here, however reluctantly - back me up. Regardless of conditions you want to impose the fact remains VitV is recognized somewhere and carries a weight. Can you say this for TBL?

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@"Feanor.2358" said:It doesn't, but read again what I said. No matter how hard solo content you want to make, you can always create harder group content.You're focusing on the wrong word here it's not "you can always" but "you can always". Like Astralporing said you always leave a safety margin but it's more realistic that they're more demanding in regards to the individual performance when it comes to solo content.

@"Feanor.2358" said:No they aren't. Not even close. Nobody cares if you have TBL or Kingslayer. VitV? That gives you a free pass almost everywhere. And for a good reason.On the other hand having VitV still proves nothing substantial other than "I participated". I've seen far to many players decked out with raid stuff bumbling around like buffoons for it to count for anything, at least with a solo title you have a rough idea what kind of content that person should be able to handle.

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@Tails.9372 said:

@"Feanor.2358" said:It doesn't, but read again what I said. No matter how hard solo content you want to make, you can
always
create harder group content.You're focusing on the wrong word here it's not "you can
always
" but "you
can
always". Like Astralporing said you always leave a safety margin but it's more realistic that they're more demanding in regards to the individual performance when it comes to solo content.

And yet they aren't.

@Tails.9372 said:

@"Feanor.2358" said:No they aren't. Not even close. Nobody cares if you have TBL or Kingslayer. VitV? That gives you a free pass almost everywhere. And for a good reason.On the other hand having VitV still proves nothing substantial other than "I participated". I've seen far to many players decked out with raid stuff bumbling around like buffoons for it to count for anything, at least with a solo title you have a rough idea what kind of content that person should be able to handle.

And yet nobody cares.

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@Feanor.2358 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:It doesn't, but read again what I said. No matter how hard solo content you want to make, you can
always
create harder group content.So? You are comparing actual, existing content with a theoretical, nonexisting one. Obviously, such comparison will always show what you want it to show, but it doesn't really have any meaning. In theory, you can also create a solo content so hard, that no group content could ever be meaningfully more difficult (because once you get to the point noone is able to pass, any increase in difficulty is meaningless). Again, so what? Such comparisons do not prove anything.

No, here I was comparing non-existing content with other non-existing. The statement was about theoretical maximums.Theoretical maximum for both is exactly the same - it's at the
content that is so hard noone is able to do it
level. You can make
any
type of content that hard, if you want. But, as i mentioned before, it's purely theoretical, for obvious reasons.

@Feanor.2358 said:The comparison of existing vs existing content I already did. And it shows exactly the same.You compared completion rates, which is completely different. And it still doesn't countet my point - at the same overall difficulty level, solo content is individually much harder. And since the overall difficulty level is capped by design intentions, the only content that truly proves the personal skill of any player can only be solo one. Any group content that would be as hard for each individual player would end up way above overall difficulty level any developer might be comfortable with.

@Feanor.2358 said:No they aren't. Not even close. Nobody cares if you have TBL or Kingslayer. VitV? That gives you a free pass almost everywhere.That's because your "everywhere" happens to be limited to mostly raid content. Outside of them most players do not really care about it (or even know what that title is for). And even in raids it's not a "free pass", at best it can make people not insist on you linking KPs (and sometimes not even that). Make a mistake, and you will get treated the same as someone without the title, though.

Which is more than you can say about the solo titles. For them you only have your own subjective opinion.Fot VitV there's only a subjective opinion as well.

Statistics back me upThey don't. They are for something else completely.

and objective facts - which you admit here, however reluctantly - back me up.Which objective facts? Statistics you brought up? Because i don't really see anything else.

Regardless of conditions you want to impose the fact remains VitV is recognized
somewhere
and carries a weight. Can you say this for TBL?Considering that the "weight" you speak of is pretty weak? Yeah, Liadri title brings probably about as much recognition, if not more (because, as i mentioned, many players still probably don't even know what VitV is about, but they
do
know about Liadri).
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@Feanor.2358 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:Fot VitV there's only a subjective opinion as well.

No, there's an objective fact - showing VitV is enough for the vast majority of raid groups to accept you. Would you please try to gain entry by showing TBL and share the results here?

Hmmm, that's not really true. On the contrary the majority of the groups ask to ping a bunch of kps and won't let you participate with only the title. VitV means nothing to them since it can be bought easily and for prices that are high but affordable for longterm or ambitious players.

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@Vinceman.4572 said:

@"Astralporing.1957" said:Fot VitV there's only a subjective opinion as well.

No, there's an objective fact - showing VitV is enough for the vast majority of raid groups to accept you. Would you please try to gain entry by showing TBL and share the results here?

Hmmm, that's not really true. On the contrary the majority of the groups ask to ping a bunch of kps and won't let you participate with only the title. VitV means nothing to them since it can be bought easily and for prices that are high but affordable for longterm or ambitious players.

The only kps I ever ping are Dhuum's and now the ones from W6 since the wing is new (although I'm certain I can safely dispose of the b1/b2 ones already, Qadim's are the only ones that count). "voice/envoy" has been sufficient to get me in any group I joined for everything else.

I think you're grossly overestimating the amount of people who bought VitV. The title carries enough weight so people are willing to accept you. Of course, if you fail badly they will revise their attitude very quickly. That's just another reason why it is accepted as a measure of skill despite being able to buy it. With these titles it is extremely obvious when it is earned and when it isn't.

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I don't mind if they add a easy mode to raids, but they shouldn't give any achivement, KP, li's or reward. It wouldn't be fair to get similar rewards and li's than the people doing normal/hard mode. The rewards of the current raids are already "low".

I have the feeling that most of the people that are asking for "easy" mode wouldn't even do them if there is no rewards or if u can't get the legendary insights doing that.

edit: if they get magnetite shards, you should only get 50 per week max. if you do them on easy mode.

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@"Feanor.2358" said:And yet they aren't.I already addressed that point, you're comparing multiple areas of the game with an almost none existing one. You can say "It doesn't" as much as you like but it doesn't change the fact that pretty much all of the content they design is MP focused. High level fractals, raids, there is just no SP equivalent to that because they generally don't care about making difficult SP content.

@Ana.2415 said:I don't mind if they add a easy mode to raids, but they shouldn't give any achivement, KP, li's or reward. It wouldn't be fair to get similar rewards and li's than the people doing normal/hard mode.In terms of quantity you're right, completing more difficult versions of the content should get you more rewards but the quality of the general rewards should be the same as they are just non specific participation rewards. Just like how it is with fractals, the low difficulties should serve as an entry point for getting new players into the content. Most people would gravitate towards higher difficulties anyways because getting the rewards they're after X times as fast is alredy quite incentivising and in this regard I oftentimes wish more people would actually take the time to play low level fractals to get a general idea of how the content works as it can be quite frustrating if you're playing on a higher difficulty and people still don't even know how to deal with the basic game mechanics of the content in question.

@Ana.2415 said:I have the feeling that most of the people that are asking for "easy" mode wouldn't even do them if there is no rewards or if u can't get the legendary insights doing that.Because why would they? They do it once for the story and don't have any reason to return afterwards but the same can be said for the raid and pretty much every other content in general. Many players stop after they achieve everything there is to achieve and then wait for new content to be realeased. Low replayability leads to dead content and rewards / long term goals to work towards are the main source of replayability in PvE based content.

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@Tails.9372 said:

@"Feanor.2358" said:And yet they aren't.I already addressed that point, you're comparing multiple areas of the game with an almost none existing one. You can say "It doesn't" as much as you like but it doesn't change the fact that pretty much all of the content they design is MP focused. High level fractals, raids, there is just no SP equivalent to that because they generally don't care about making difficult SP content.

Do we have difficult SP content in the game? We do. Is it easier than the difficult MP content? It is. I rest my case.

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@"Feanor.2358" said:The only kps I ever ping are Dhuum's and now the ones from W6 since the wing is new (although I'm certain I can safely dispose of the b1/b2 ones already, Qadim's are the only ones that count). "voice/envoy" has been sufficient to get me in any group I joined for everything else.

Then you're pretty lucky even well-known streamers do not get access to Dhuum and other bosses by stating "I have VitV." The day before yesterday Plenyx was booted for that live on stream.

I think you're grossly overestimating the amount of people who bought VitV.

No, I don't. Maybe in US, in EU it's a different thing. Desmina CM is easy as is Statues of Grenth. So Dhuum CM is the only barrier people have to conquer so they easily buy that.

The title carries enough weight so people are willing to accept you. Of course, if you fail badly they will revise their attitude very quickly. That's just another reason why it is accepted as a measure of skill despite being able to buy it. With these titles it is extremely obvious when it is earned and when it isn't.

It's not often accepted in EU. And yes, you'll obviously see if somebody has to do mechanics like greens, tank or kite. If you are just dps'ing on dhuum or playing the healer in the middle it's a quasi free-ride. I've done it all, the difference is huge. Most ridiculous thing is Deadeye and you don't have to do anything besides your rotation, look into the middle and care shackles.

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Mate, it is accepted in the EU, I'm in EU and I have been pugging like that for months. Please don't tell me it's just luck, that's rubbish. There probably are groups which won't accept VitV as credentials enough to give you a shot, but they are very, VERY small minority.

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@Feanor.2358 said:Do we have difficult SP content in the game? We do. Is it easier than the difficult MP content? It is. I rest my case.Is it really, or is it just your purely subjective opinion? Because for me, Liadri was much harder than Dhuum. And that's without the 8 orbs achi.

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:Fot VitV there's only a subjective opinion as well.

No, there's an objective fact - showing VitV is enough for the vast majority of raid groups to accept you. Would you please try to gain entry by showing TBL and share the results here?Why would a solo title count in this case? VitV does count for raids (although probably not as well as you might think it does, i saw more than once people with it getting kicked because they wouldn't link KPs, and most groups would still pick 80+ dhuum token player over low kp/no kp VitV one).

I think you are mistaking one thing: VitV does count a bit (but only a bit) in raid environment, that's true, but not because it denotes skill, but because it says you probably have at least some experience with boss fights. So, basically the same as linking some KPs. Obviously, TBL doesn't carry the same message, because someone with it, no matter their personal skill, is not guaranteed to have seen even a single raid boss. So, the same reason why in fractals VitV doesn't count at all, and people keep asking for LNHB.

It has nothing to do with the recognition of personal skill however.

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@Astralporing.1957 said:I think you are mistaking one thing: VitV does count a bit (but only a bit) in raid environment, that's true, but not because it denotes skill, but because it says you probably have at least some experience with boss fights. So, basically the same as linking some KPs. Obviously, TBL doesn't carry the same message, because someone with it, no matter their personal skill, is not guaranteed to have seen even a single raid boss. So, the same reason why in fractals VitV doesn't count at all, and people keep asking for LNHB.

It has nothing to do with the recognition of personal skill however.

Fair enough. Same can be said for TBL, since it doesn't count for literally anything. So how exactly it is supposed to carry more prestige, which was your original claim? Prestige is recognition. Of the two titles, only one is recognized for anything, in any measurable way.

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@Feanor.2358 said:Do we have difficult SP content in the game? We do.Not really, at least not for the core gameplay content. Of course it depends on what you count as "difficult" but both Liadri and Turai Ossa are more challenging than difficult.

@Feanor.2358 said:Is it easier than the difficult MP content? It is.Only if you ignore the requirement for individual performance in which case it's beside the point.

@Feanor.2358 said:So how exactly it is supposed to carry more prestigeIt carries more prestige for those who care about personal player skill and accomplishments because (unlike group titles) they actually reflect on the player wearing it in this regard, group titles on the other hand only cary prestige for those who care about experience. If that's all you care about fine but saying "no one cares about solo titles" essentially means that no one cares about player skill and personal accomplishments which I find hard to believe.

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@Tails.9372 said:

@"Feanor.2358" said:So how exactly it is supposed to carry more prestigeIt carries more prestige for those who care about personal player skill and accomplishments because (unlike group titles) they actually reflect on the player wearing it in this regard, group titles on the other hand only cary prestige for those who care about experience. If that's all you care about fine but saying "no one cares about solo titles" essentially means that no one cares about player skill and personal accomplishments which I find hard to believe.

Oh, they do care about players skill and personal accomplishments, only they value the MP-related ones higher, because they're harder.

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@"Ana.2415" said:I don't mind if they add a easy mode to raids, but they shouldn't give any achivement, KP, li's or reward. It wouldn't be fair to get similar rewards and li's than the people doing normal/hard mode. The rewards of the current raids are already "low".

I have the feeling that most of the people that are asking for "easy" mode wouldn't even do them if there is no rewards or if u can't get the legendary insights doing that.

edit: if they get magnetite shards, you should only get 50 per week max. if you do them on easy mode.

I think an easy mode deserves some rewards, but the main Legendary Armor collection should be reserved for normal etc. I’m fine with even supplying a finite amount of mag shards per week.

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I wouldn't mind mag shards if they are shared between modes. If you plan to grab the legendary armor you swim in them before long anyway and the skins are expensive enough that you'd still have to play four weeks for one of them. At least they allow you to buy ascended gear without much hassle.

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@Grogba.6204 said:I wouldn't mind mag shards if they are shared between modes. If you plan to grab the legendary armor you swim in them before long anyway and the skins are expensive enough that you'd still have to play four weeks for one of them. At least they allow you to buy ascended gear without much hassle.

You could also lock the weapon skins to normal mode too and just have the minis available.

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@Feanor.2358 said:Mate, it is accepted in the EU, I'm in EU and I have been pugging like that for months. Please don't tell me it's just luck, that's rubbish. There probably are groups which won't accept VitV as credentials enough to give you a shot, but they are very, VERY small minority.

You're making the mistake that you only look on your site. Subjective bias. Streamers proving a different picture. Yes, there are groups that take you instantly with VitV and nothing else but the overwhelming majority asks for a decent amount of kps and doesn't care about VitV as it clearly shows nothing. I usually disagree with your post but here you are predominantly wrong. :)

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@Feanor.2358 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:So how exactly it is supposed to carry more prestigeIt carries more prestige for those who care about personal player skill and accomplishments because (unlike group titles) they actually reflect on the player wearing it in this regard, group titles on the other hand only cary prestige for those who care about experience. If that's all you care about fine but saying "no one cares about solo titles" essentially means that no one cares about player skill and personal accomplishments which I find hard to believe.

Oh, they do care about players skill and personal accomplishments, only they value the MP-related ones higher, because they're harder.Something you can just buy for money has no value for everyone who truly cares about personal player skill (at least not in that regard).
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@Tails.9372 said:

@"Digit.1823" said:On a more serious note, you should look up the explanation of "philosophy of fairness" which basically tells in excellent detail that it is only normal that the more work you do (or the harder you work) the more you should be rewarded. And the less you do the less you should be rewarded. This is actually such a basic logical thing that i'm a bit aghast that people still think easy mode version should give everything normal mode does.Doesn't make much sense to bring up this point as a response to a post which stated that easier difficulties should get fewer rewards.

It made absolute sense because of this quote.

@Tails.9372 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:B) no Legendary Armor items, LI etc. Exotics and rares would be fine for this.If you want it to end up as dead content that is, otherwise reduced rewards like how it is for fractals would be the way to go.

You are directly replying to Tyson claiming that if they leave out the main rewards (No legendary armor or LI's) then easy/story mode raids will end up as dead content. These are your exact words. You follow it up saying that reduced rewards like fractals are the way to go, but what in your opinion are reduced rewards like fractals? Tyson already said exotics and rares would be fine for a story/easy mode raids. But do you mean that people should also get the Legendary Armor achievements? Or what about LI? Should they get 1 LI per boss or 1 LI per wing? Magnetite shards? Should people be allowed to work towards Legendary Armor at all in story/easy mode raids? Should ascended items drop? You need to be more specific or at least elaborate your point of view more because right now nothing you said made sense.

@Tails.9372 said:

@"Digit.1823" said:And don't start with things like "yeah but a full clear on story/easy mode would only give 1 LI per wing and not per boss" because the only thing that does is time-gate it more. It doesn't make the effort of killing the bosses and doing the events any harder or more challenging. Time-gating =/= more challenge.So what? Legendary items are participation rewards, nothing more. One can just as well run some extra rounds in Istan and buy the kills. I start buying the "people should adhere to higher standards" argument once the raid community actively pressures A-Net to do something against raid sellers. At least this way people would actually be incentivised to play the related content. It's not like the stuff where you can get help from other players amounts to anything anyways. If it's "prestige" you're after you should ask A-Net for some high difficulty solo content.

It seems it was a good thing that i waited a bit and checked your later comments as well before replying because right now it just seems you're throwing up a lot of smoke and shouting "Fire, fire!" while there actually is no fire. People can also see this in the posts you made later in this thread, you're throwing around words like "Prestige!", "Longevity of the game-mode!" and "Legendary items are participation rewards, nothing more!" but you've never actually addressed the point of why people deserve the same rewards of a higher difficulty mode for doing less on an easier difficulty mode. I really would like to hear your thoughts on that considering your posts here.

"Prestige"? - Subjective, you don't care about my Voice in the Void/Champion of Zommoros titles (which you might have too, i do not know). And i don't care about your The Blazing Light/Kingslayer titles (if you have those, i honestly don't know). Which i both happen to have + the 8 orb Liadri achievement, just to make clear that i do also enjoy challenging solo content. But since the prestige of titles is subjective it's an immensely poor argument. Who is to say what carries more worth then the other? Is it you? is it me? Someone else in this thread? Anet perhaps? You've seen the discussion between Feanor and Astralporing, even they can't figure it out despite maddoctor giving some insightful numbers from GW2 Efficiency. But in the end they're just numbers, and numbers might not lie but they cannot tell what carries more worth to a person.

"Longevity of the game-mode"? - I'm pretty sure quite a few posters claim that story/easy mode raids would be fine for the following reasons:

  • Being able to experience the story, the little bit that there is and nothing else.
  • Being able to train the mechanics of the bosses without constantly wiping. And on a more relaxed difficulty setting so they can enjoy it more and nothing else.

It seems a consensus among pro-story/easy mode raids advocates is far away considering the myriad points of view people are having. What is longevity to you anyway? I want to make clear i do agree with this though, it will probably give more longevity to the game mode considering that people can be eased into raids better so they can work their way up to normal mode and claim the main rewards in the intended difficulty mode. (The main rewards of course being LI and Legendary Armor) Longevity is borne out of the fact that people can continue playing, going from the lesser difficulty to the intended difficulty and then working their way to whatever rewards they want from that.

"Legendary items are participation rewards, nothing more"? - This...this made the least sense. I mean what, just because you stepped foot into raids once you deserve the full credit and should just automatically receive a full set of Legendary Armor for simply auto-attacking the boss once? What do you mean with this? Again, a lot of smoke, but no fire. Would you be so kind to explain a bit more about this? Do you want story/easy mode raids to actually give out the full rewards or not? But then you'll have to actually explain why people deserve the same rewards of a higher difficulty mode for doing less on an easier difficulty mode. See we're coming back to this again.

Also "buying raids" isn't exactly the same as actually doing the raids, that much is true, you still have to pay for a service. And raid-sellers do not need to pressure Anet into doing anything here, because their official stance is that they condone the activity because people are free to choose how to spend their own time and gold. If a group of players want to sell raids, that's fine. If people want to buy raids, that's fine. It's like with the old "Droknar runs" in GW1. That was fine too, i don't see how that should change now. So feel free to "I start buying the "people should adhere to higher standards" argument once the raid community actively pressures A-Net to do something against raid sellers" as long as you want, but that's never going to change. So like...that's just your opinion man.

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@Vinceman.4572 said:

@"Feanor.2358" said:Mate, it is accepted in the EU, I'm in EU and I have been pugging like that for months. Please don't tell me it's just luck, that's rubbish. There probably are groups which won't accept VitV as credentials enough to give you a shot, but they are very, VERY small minority.

You're making the mistake that you only look on your site. Subjective bias. Streamers proving a different picture. Yes, there are groups that take you instantly with VitV and nothing else but the overwhelming majority asks for a decent amount of kps and doesn't care about VitV as it clearly shows nothing. I usually disagree with your post but here you are predominantly wrong. :)

From my experience most groups accept VitV alone.Every week I pug w5 and I just say I donated all the kp to guild hall but have VitV to show and never got rejected.

Now tell me did u only see 1 streamer get kicked or have you seen multiple streamers getting kicked?

Maybe that streamer had some elitist attitude and the commander didn't want that kind of player.Some players think they are special just because they are in a "famous" guild.

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