Condi Mirage Feedback [Merged] - Page 3 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Condi Mirage Feedback [Merged]

1356717

Comments

  • tinyreborn.1938tinyreborn.1938 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 13, 2018

    @Poelala.2830 said:
    In Trevor's world, Weaver does more damage than Spellbreaker.

    I think in his own world he dont know meaning of DPS and SUSTAIN hence why slap S for condi mirage(spellbreaker facetank level) and C for power xD

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Poelala.2830 @jportell.2197

    Weaver definitely does a bit more damage than Spellbreaker with bruiser oriented specs, and it does a lot more damage than Spellbreaker with burst oriented specs.

  • jportell.2197jportell.2197 Member ✭✭✭

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    @Poelala.2830 @jportell.2197

    Weaver definitely does a bit more damage than Spellbreaker with bruiser oriented specs, and it does a lot more damage than Spellbreaker with burst oriented specs.

    But in no world would people rather a weaver On their team over a spellbreaker.

  • Aktium.9506Aktium.9506 Member ✭✭✭

    @Poelala.2830 said:
    In Trevor's world, Weaver does more damage than Spellbreaker.

    FA Weaver definitely does more damage than Spellbreaker. It just doesn't get to stay alive long enough to deal said damage if there's any sort of class with burst and mobility in the match on the enemy team.

  • jportell.2197jportell.2197 Member ✭✭✭

    @steveraptor.9603 said:

    @jportell.2197 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    @Poelala.2830 @jportell.2197

    Weaver definitely does a bit more damage than Spellbreaker with bruiser oriented specs, and it does a lot more damage than Spellbreaker with burst oriented specs.

    But in no world would people rather a weaver On their team over a spellbreaker.

    Because maybe its not just about the damage output?

    Exactly. A warrior will land more damage And out sustain the weaver if both are running similar specs

  • Hot Boy.7138Hot Boy.7138 Member ✭✭✭

    I have to disagree about power mirage being high risk. Mirage is definitely a low risk spec, no matter the variant, especially if you are running stealth and/or retargetting skills. But I agree with all the rest.

  • Xstein.2187Xstein.2187 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 13, 2018

    Hi Boyer, a couple of things.

    It's hard to boil down PvP to just 4 categories.
    There is big difference between dps and burst. If you check the dps of condi mirage vs power mirage in the PvE special forces training area, you will find that condi mirage has waaaay more dps. Even pvp thief has more dps. I believe this is a major leading factor for your discrepancy between your experience playing pvp games and your scores (Another is point control. Even without a lot of defense, offensive AoE naturally leads to more point control, but I digress).

    I have played power mes throughout HoT and PoF and one of the things that surprised me the most when I switched to condi mirage recently is that you can burst someone down with a well timed burst AND have skills to spare to provide more sustained pressure. You see, this goes hand in hand with the point control statement I maid earlier. Why? Because having more sustained damage forces your opponent to play at least partially defensively as well. This in turn is in many ways a defense. You see, if they are not dodging or applying a defensive skill, they could be applying an offensive skill instead. Meanwhile, after a burst, the power mirage has no adequate offensive skills to apply pressure. Therefore, they are relying almost solely on defensive skills/dodges for defense. This is why people screamed for nerfs to the defensive nature of condi mirage while power mirage had the same skills but wasn't deemed OP or taken for competitions.

    Another problem for both condi and power mirage is condis. Without EM, mes does not have good condi removal outside the inspiration trait line. This of course isn't a problem at the moment since it is a more power based focused meta. However, as soon as there are more condi classes, both condi and power mirage will be marked down a notch since taking EM now is more detrimental than beneficial.

    Long story short:
    1. Condi Mirage should not have as high of a combination of burst and sustain damage. Because of this, the devs will nerf defense which will then affect power mirage as well.
    2. Mes or mirage should have a reliable way of cleansing conditions (EM no longer counts) outside the inspiration trait line, even if it means nerfing something else.
    3. If confounding sugestions was nerfed because it didn't seem 'fair' to the person playing against the power mes (even on a long internal cooldown), then delete all stuns from the game so an opponent can't do it to you, for this really doesn't seem fair.
    4. Power mes needs increased sustained damage, and reliable sustained damage at that. Yes I am saying something on mes that needs a buff. Power mes has not been meta for almost 4 years now. It's not even like such a change would make it OP. If the devs don't want 100 to zeroing people to be a thing (which it in no way can do reliably in PvP) then power mes needs more sustained damage to even have a remote possibility. Yes, power and condi mirage are on two TOTALLY different sides of the spectrum on this issue. Thats why its not even possible to balance both of them through making defensive changes.

  • Arlette.9684Arlette.9684 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 13, 2018

    I honestly couldn't be bothered to read past "...2nd..."
    Whatever respect I had for you got scrapped and tossed in the bin. The mere fact that you use one possible build to illustrate the problem and call for nerfs to the class in specific areas, without illustrating how those changes would affect different weapon sets or trait combinations, makes me think you didn't do your homework before you came here.
    Sigh! Oh well.

    @kiritsugu emeya.3962 You're still my Go-To Ranger :wink:

    Vae Victus!
    [Hcm] Promotraitor

  • sephiroth.4217sephiroth.4217 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Can I have OP build please...

    I played condi mirage last night but it wasnt as easy as people are claiming to be, I actually had better and an easier time winning on my Tempest, DH and Menders Reaper

    Not to brag, but I put together a puzzle in 4 days and the box said 2-4 years.
    Please allow team queue with rewards again at our own discretion.
    Apologies if I come off as dry or blunt.

  • @OP, thank you for this post. I really don't have the guts to try out mesmer to find out how to defeat it, mainly because I don't want to discover how powerful I would feel using it. I quite like being the underdog and outplaying mesmers with my teammates. Guild Wars 2 PVP is a team-oriented game mode to begin with, even though people are insistent that it isn't. But, I digress.

    I completely agree with all you have listed. I may not be in plat, but I've played a whole kitten ton of games throughout the entirety of my GW2 career, carefully observed the metas of each season I was involved in, and took note of the mesmer changes over the course of each season. There has always been a viable build, or multiple viable builds, of mesmer for every season. Condi mirage is the only one that does not have a direct counter. You could say Deadeye or Pew-Pew Soulbeast, but they do not have the same ability to disengage and reset fights while playing defensively as Condi mirage can. There are just too many things at their disposal and THAT is something that no one can deny. Who cares about the nerfs? That doesn't deter from the fact that the nerfed mesmer builds are still viable in the current meta.

    My point is that mesmer mains should not complain about the nerfs if their builds are still viable in the current meta. In the hands of someone who is just starting out, mesmer is an annoyance. In the hands of someone with a lot of skill, mesmer is invincible. Thank you so much for your post!

  • sephiroth.4217sephiroth.4217 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ChartFish.1308 said:
    So rare to see people actually play a class to truly see how it works instead of just screaming OP. It's easy to disregard someone who just complains on face value. It's hard to disregard someone who said they can wreck kitten on a class they've barely played.

    You've got my respect for that. It was a good read.

    While the sentiment may hold true in most aspects of life, I dont think it could be applied here....

    Otherwise I might aswell kick kitten on renegade then use it as justification for a nerf...

    Also just asking again, but can someone share this OP build? I dont struggle against most condi mirage and I didnt feel like a god playing it last night... I have much easier wins on tempest and menders reaper than what I did playing condi mirage and I got 5 Mesmers and about 3k hours on the class

    Not to brag, but I put together a puzzle in 4 days and the box said 2-4 years.
    Please allow team queue with rewards again at our own discretion.
    Apologies if I come off as dry or blunt.

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Arlette.9684 Nope, I was using suggested variant options from those Shorts videos.
    @malisivo.5264 Go try it out man, I swear this build plays itself outside of active thinking while using portal/blink/jaunt.
    @sephiroth.4217 Sounds like you're trying to play the Mirage LIKE a Reaper or a DH. Play defensively and make people run into your super rando damage.

    @Xstein.2187 100% agree with everything you said. About boiling down conquest attributes to 4x categories, I felt the same when writing up that list but I wanted to keep the class analysis somewhat light instead of writing up a page's worth of detailed examination for each of them. Realistically with a proper full analysis, it would probably look something more like this:

    • Burst Grade & Attrition Grade (Damage Category)
    • Self Sustain 1v1 Grade & 1vX Grade (Sustain Category)
    • Rotation Speed Grade & Chasing Grade & Disengage Grade (Mobility Category)
    • Team Support/Utility Grade with a full explanation of exactly what it is bringing to the team (Support/Utility Category)
    • Ability To Hold Vs. Decap Grade (Cap Defense Category)
    • Ease Of Entry Grade & Skill Cap Grade - IE: DH ease of entry (S), skill cap (B+) - D/P Thief ease of entry (C), skill cap (S)

    ^ That would be a more detailed analysis but boy would it take some time to write up.

  • sephiroth.4217sephiroth.4217 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    @Arlette.9684 Nope, I was using suggested variant options from those Shorts videos.
    @malisivo.5264 Go try it out man, I swear this build plays itself outside of active thinking while using portal/blink/jaunt.
    @sephiroth.4217 Sounds like you're trying to play the Mirage LIKE a Reaper or a DH. Play defensively and make people run into your super rando damage.

    @Xstein.2187 100% agree with everything you said. About boiling down conquest attributes to 4x categories, I felt the same when writing up that list but I wanted to keep the class analysis somewhat light instead of writing up a page's worth of detailed examination for each of them. Realistically with a proper full analysis, it would probably look something more like this:

    • Burst Grade & Attrition Grade (Damage Category)
    • Self Sustain 1v1 Grade & 1vX Grade (Sustain Category)
    • Rotation Speed Grade & Chasing Grade & Disengage Grade (Mobility Category)
    • Team Support/Utility Grade with a full explanation of exactly what it is bringing to the team (Support/Utility Category)
    • Ability To Hold Vs. Decap Grade (Cap Defense Category)
    • Ease Of Entry Grade & Skill Cap Grade - IE: DH ease of entry (S), skill cap (B+) - D/P Thief ease of entry (C), skill cap (S)

    ^ That would be a more detailed analysis but boy would it take some time to write up.

    Nah that wasnt it... I had S/D thieves up me just about every game, if it wasnt that then it was the power mirage, or the soulbeast or the scourge that would send all my stacks of confusion back on me... I could cheese a kill here and there on players not packing a tonne of condi removals too but wasnt much I could do against mid comp with a FB, wasnt much I could do against rsistance spamming spellbreakers either.

    So again, if you wouldnt mind linking this OP build please? If you cant thats fine too, I just thought there was a foundation to base these claims on otherwise its nothing more than "X beat me so nerf X" thread.

    Not to brag, but I put together a puzzle in 4 days and the box said 2-4 years.
    Please allow team queue with rewards again at our own discretion.
    Apologies if I come off as dry or blunt.

  • sephiroth.4217sephiroth.4217 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 14, 2018

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    @sephiroth.4217 Not once did I say anything about nerfing Mirage. In fact, not a single user who has posted in this thread has said anything at all about nerfing Mirage. I simply stated that after playing each class, I felt that Condi Mirage was still dominant in conquest. Being defensive about class nerfs in a thread like this sort of makes you look like some guilty culprit of a crime who is paranoid of people figuring out what he did, just saying.

    Also, I was just running the standard listed meta with a couple suggested tweaks "like sigil changes" and I also still opted to use Elusive Mind, which seemed to work fine for me. I normally main a Berserker Soulbeast spec that must be played super cautiously anyway, so I didn't have too many problems avoiding over use of Elusive Mind.

    No one is being defensive except for you, im just asking for the OP build.

    I didnt say you did, im implying that your claims have little substance at the moment and that you are just venting steam because again you failed to link the build and again you have side stepped the question, which is very unlike you.

    Thank you for finally referencing a build but unfortunately that was the build I was using... I was really hoping there was an OP build there.

    Not to brag, but I put together a puzzle in 4 days and the box said 2-4 years.
    Please allow team queue with rewards again at our own discretion.
    Apologies if I come off as dry or blunt.

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @sephiroth.4217 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    @sephiroth.4217 Not once did I say anything about nerfing Mirage. In fact, not a single user who has posted in this thread has said anything at all about nerfing Mirage. I simply stated that after playing each class, I felt that Condi Mirage was still dominant in conquest. Being defensive about class nerfs in a thread like this sort of makes you look like some guilty culprit of a crime who is paranoid of people figuring out what he did, just saying.

    Also, I was just running the standard listed meta with a couple suggested tweaks "like sigil changes" and I also still opted to use Elusive Mind, which seemed to work fine for me. I normally main a Berserker Soulbeast spec that must be played super cautiously anyway, so I didn't have too many problems avoiding over use of Elusive Mind.

    No one is being defensive except for you, im just asking for the OP build.

    I didnt say you did, im implying that your claims have little substance at the moment and that you are just venting steam because again you failed to link the build and again you have side stepped the question, which is very unlike you.

    Thank you for finally referencing a build but unfortunately that was the build I was using... I was really hoping there was an OP build there.

    lol

    1. Please quote where I have been defensive outside of quoting and pointing out misconceptions & embellishments or plain misinformation in other users responses. That isn't being defensive, that's just clearing things up.
    2. If you can't figure out the meta Condi Mirage build I'm not going to direct you towards it.
    3. Side stepped what question lol? What is the Condi Mirage build? Oh my god dude. Try a bit, succeed a bit. That's my advice to you.
  • Vagrant.7206Vagrant.7206 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I don't have too many troubles with condi mirage on my holo. But I also run a non-meta Sword/Shield Conversion build. Condi mirages tend to kill themselves trying to hurt me.

    The great god Lagki demands sacrifice!

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Man, many of things in this thread are off. Anyway, Condi Mirage as it currently stands is meh without portal and okay with it.

  • yeah nerf mesmer.. so OP.
    but DE hitting for 12k then stealthing, moving around and blasting you again is perfectly balanced. you ever play mesmer where the opposite team has 2 DE and a ranger, or 2 ranger and one DE and you see the spawn point more than the map. No, you cant always los, get real. if you cant stand on point to cap because of pew pew then you lose.

  • Sampson.2403Sampson.2403 Member ✭✭✭

    I dunno. I smell over exaggerated claims from the OP.

    I've been playing mirage power and condi exlusively for the last 4 seasons. Got the top 250 leaderboard title last season using power. So obviously im not pro but good enough to know my stuff with mirage.

    Your talking about how u were able to 2v1 and 3v1 and beat any 1v1 match up by randonly spamming stuff as a condi mirage. And all of this success after playing for what, one afternoon practicing for the first time in golems? Then you must be playing low gold/silver players.

    There's no way you can just randomly spam and beat people that know how to play. Mirage being a mindless spammy class that anyone can top 250 with is such an exaggerated claim especially present day after receiving nerf after nerf.

    I don't buy it.

  • Megametzler.5729Megametzler.5729 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 14, 2018

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    @Poelala.2830 @jportell.2197

    Weaver definitely does a bit more damage than Spellbreaker with bruiser oriented specs, and it does a lot more damage than Spellbreaker with burst oriented specs.

    FA weaver - sure. Then the sustain is D- though.

    But noooonononononooonononoooo on any bruiser weaver! Noooononononono! hits random rampage button

    Not the focus of the discussion though, so whatever. :tongue:

  • Lincolnbeard.1735Lincolnbeard.1735 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Would like that weaver build please - more dps than Spellbreaker and Soulbeast while being top tier in sustain.
    Kitten 2k criticals!

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 15, 2018

    @Sampson.2403 Dude, you gotta swap amulet/rune to tweak vs. what's in the match. Even just the middle Mirage line selection allows this enormous wiggle room for tweaking vs. specifically what is in the match against you. The more I've been messing around with those selections, I do believe Condi Mirage has a top tier level of adaption while still running "the same build", seems to be much more than most of the other builds.

  • Sampson.2403Sampson.2403 Member ✭✭✭

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    @Sampson.2403 Dude, you gotta swap amulet/rune to tweak vs. what's in the match. Even just the middle Mirage line selection allows this enormous wiggle room for tweaking vs. specifically what is in the match against you. The more I've been messing around with those selections, I do believe Condi Mirage has a top tier level of adaption while still running "the same build", seems to be much more than most of the other builds.

    S'all good man, I've just been sent down here (by jesus) to make sure that mesmers get a fair hearing in this world. When someone says that they unworthy and OP/EZ the lord says kitten YOU KNOW WHAT I WANT, I WANNA TALK TO SAMPSON.

    So there's that, plus I'm a mirage in real life. I mirage thrust and jaunt combo into my office everyday at work and my co workers are impressed that i can do that.

  • EnderzShadow.2506EnderzShadow.2506 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 15, 2018

    @Sampson.2403 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    @Tiah.3091 Nice troll bait. Be more quaint with it next time, it was too obvious.

    @Sampson.2403 I do have almost 13,000 games played, so picking up on Condi Mirage was quite easy. Also, you should use some rebuttal other than the worn out "oh you must be playing against silver players." Seriously though, I get top 10 players in matches in ranked about 1/3 games, and in unranked the faces I see are the usual plat 1 to plat 2 faces I see in ranked. Just throw something else at me as a rebuttal kitten, at this point the "oh you must play silver division" kitten doesn't have freeloading forum sword weight like you seem to think it does. Especially not after recent months of actually beating plat 2-3 teams in AT dailies. Step it up a bit.

    I've been playing the mirage for 10 months str8t in plat 1 - 2 games and im not spamming keys. I have the muscle memory and cooldown management engrained into my skull.

    You admitted that you don't have the cooldowns synced up for flow and you also admitted that you're just mindlessly spamming keys.

    Despite all of this, your results massively surpass mine.

    That's why im calling BS. :)

    I don't doubt that you may have played it well for a first timer and that you were for sure surprised by its ability to roflstomp by spamming occasionaly. Its a great class. But your claims are exaggerated :) To be good at mirage does indeed require that you know what you are doing.

    What you just said, doesn't really 'jive' with what the OP said.
    "Once I was comfortable with the rehearsed 1-shot power burst I swapped to practice condi bursting . I was immediately surprised at how much less effort was required to land enormous damage with condi. Sure there are optimal ways to land its condi burst but in truth, Condi Mirage can randomly push any buttons in any order while landing enormous AoE damage, and since so much of what it is doing is random AoE, 3/4ths of it's attacks don't even require having a target on an enemy.

    To me that says, he practiced the condi burst the same way he practiced the power burst but figured out it wasnt as difficult to pull off.

    Where did you get he was 'mindlessly spamming keys'? Cause he never said that.

    But holy krap, everyones jumped on a condi Mesmer and fought a couple unranked games and had NO IDEA whatsoever what they were doing and still won fights.
    Thats common....
    You won't find a single person do that on power shatter mes.

    The sheer mobility granted through Mirage made it feel like I was playing a different game than Guild Wars

    mhm, ok, sure, whatever you say, no after you, I insist, no really, please, be my guest,

  • Tact.8063Tact.8063 Member ✭✭

    i wont say much i have resently change to reaper main from condition mirage but i would like to say OP post is way to vaguge and filled in inacurated data (mesmer have heavy AOE since when? only realy powerfull aoe is F2 with standard 240 radius)
    my experience

    • gurdian = possible if i dont let him heal with intrupt ( i will die otherwise very hard and close fight)
    • warr = spell breaker a little tough but with right amount of waiting possible
    • necro= scourge= easy 1v1 hard in multy fight hardest
      reaper = super easy lack of condition clease

    • ** ele= unkillable , change target immediately**

    • eng= very easy most of time i little hard with secondy team (hard in close 2v2)
    • thief = mostly easy just dont meet one at half health or you are dead
    • revenant = why are you a thing?? so easy unless i have no sustain skill
    • ranger= i dont fight ranger ..... i kill them easiest thing ever just close gap
  • Sampson.2403Sampson.2403 Member ✭✭✭

    @EnderzShadow.2506 said:

    Where did you get he was 'mindlessly spamming keys'? Cause he never said that.

    THIRD PARAGRAPH OF ORIGINAL POST SIR - MAYBE YOU NEED tEh GLASSES BRO:

    "The 2nd thing I noticed is that I could play sloppy as all hell and still kill everyone that I engaged 1v1, with no real counter builds out there that the Condi Mirage couldn't handle or deal with. I'd just go in directly at them regardless of class and spam buttons as I tested different combos and they'd eventually go down due to the 3rd thing I noticed, my ridiculous level of burst and attrition."

  • Daishi.6027Daishi.6027 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 15, 2018

    -Revert 2/3 nerfs to: Jaunt, vigor traits, or Blurred Fenzy.

    -Maim of the disillusioned - Now only affects Mind Wrack and Cry of Frustration.

    -Ineptitude - No longer confuse on blind. Interrupts cause confusion. Successfully evading an attack causes blind (icd 4 sec?).

    This directly de-weaponizes blinds and reduces the over all output, while keeping weaponized interrupts.

  • Arcaedus.7290Arcaedus.7290 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Nice post. This sounds similar to the experience I had with condi chrono when I geared one up for roaming back in the day. I think it's also worth mentioning just how hard condi mirage is to fight against given a very experienced player playing at the skill ceiling behind the keyboard.

    I've read most of the posts in this thread and most everyone arguing against Boyer, or criticizing him seems to be nitpicking or only rebutting a few minor details. Speaking as objectively as possible, if you consider all performance metrics, condi mirage overperforms the most across the board. Sure, it isn't the best at any one thing, burst, aoe pressure, attrition, team support/utility, mobility/disengage, etc., but considered altogether, nothing even comes close to dethroning condi mirage.

    This really makes me wish that they would abolish the 2 classes per-team limit. If we started getting matches involving 4 or 5 of one class, that would be an excellent statistic to use for diagnosing what needs nerfing/buffing.

  • EnderzShadow.2506EnderzShadow.2506 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sampson.2403 said:

    @EnderzShadow.2506 said:

    Where did you get he was 'mindlessly spamming keys'? Cause he never said that.

    THIRD PARAGRAPH OF ORIGINAL POST SIR - MAYBE YOU NEED tEh GLASSES BRO:

    "The 2nd thing I noticed is that I could play sloppy as all hell and still kill everyone that I engaged 1v1, with no real counter builds out there that the Condi Mirage couldn't handle or deal with. I'd just go in directly at them regardless of class and spam buttons as I tested different combos and they'd eventually go down due to the 3rd thing I noticed, my ridiculous level of burst and attrition."

    LOL OK BRUH

    mhm, ok, sure, whatever you say, no after you, I insist, no really, please, be my guest,

  • Sampson.2403Sampson.2403 Member ✭✭✭

    @EnderzShadow.2506 said:

    @Sampson.2403 said:

    @EnderzShadow.2506 said:

    Where did you get he was 'mindlessly spamming keys'? Cause he never said that.

    THIRD PARAGRAPH OF ORIGINAL POST SIR - MAYBE YOU NEED tEh GLASSES BRO:

    "The 2nd thing I noticed is that I could play sloppy as all hell and still kill everyone that I engaged 1v1, with no real counter builds out there that the Condi Mirage couldn't handle or deal with. I'd just go in directly at them regardless of class and spam buttons as I tested different combos and they'd eventually go down due to the 3rd thing I noticed, my ridiculous level of burst and attrition."

    LOL OK BRUH

    THATS RIGHT BRO, YOU TRIED AND YOU FAILED. OWN IT.

  • @Poelala.2830 said:
    In Trevor's world, Weaver does more damage than Spellbreaker.

    It's almost as if AoE exists.

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sampson.2403 said:

    @EnderzShadow.2506 said:

    Where did you get he was 'mindlessly spamming keys'? Cause he never said that.

    THIRD PARAGRAPH OF ORIGINAL POST SIR - MAYBE YOU NEED tEh GLASSES BRO:

    "The 2nd thing I noticed is that I could play sloppy as all hell and still kill everyone that I engaged 1v1, with no real counter builds out there that the Condi Mirage couldn't handle or deal with. I'd just go in directly at them regardless of class and spam buttons as I tested different combos and they'd eventually go down due to the 3rd thing I noticed, my ridiculous level of burst and attrition."

    But does it say "I could play sloppy" or did it say "I was playing sloppy for 10 games". Maybe we should call an investigation on this bro.

  • allias.1420allias.1420 Member ✭✭✭

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    @incisorr.9502
    Yes but the top of the leaderboards doesn't exactly represent any fair play and/or real demonstration of class performance in real matches either. We can all pretend that match manipulation isn't REAL but it is and there is no coincidence that "every time", might I stress "every time" I have had a match against a top 10 player this season, I mysteriously get a DC on my team. "every time"

    Why is it happening? Well streaming seems to be linked to all of the obvious win trading I've seen this season. I'm pretty sure what is left of the win trading community is just predominantly about commercial interests via twitch. It's real simple to understand "no one wants to watch a loser." <- It's true, I know it's true, they know it's true, although it's hush to ever discuss these things publicly for obvious reasons. It's whatever in my book at this point, but don't you dare even act like that kitten is real and use it as a sword while discussing class balance. I mean it's no different of an incentive than flooding a twitch chat with a load of bots that randomly talk about random things for 6 hours while someone is streaming, to make it look active. They do what they have to do to remain noticed, I get it. Not saying all of them, but a lot of them do. Just don't bring that fake kitten in as a sword into real discussions. It isn't right and it's embarrassing.

    Hahahaha. Who on earth wants to wintrade to be noticed on twitch? GW2 pvp in twitch gets people like 50 viewers if that? People don't want to watch that kitten whether they win or lose lmao

  • EUmad.7645EUmad.7645 Member ✭✭
    edited October 16, 2018

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    True story:

    For the first time in years, I logged in to get some practice on power/condi Mirage, this was a few days ago. If you look on my pie chart of "classes played" I have so few Mesmer games played that it doesn't even show on the pie chart, not a sliver. <- Keep that in mind.

    I loaded up a couple videos from Shorts to learn how to run Mirage bursting. I did exactly what this guy said to do in the video, I sat for about an hour and blew up a bunch of golems while getting used to power bursting. The power bursting took a real focused effort to become adept with. The power burst is fickle in the idea that, not only is it difficult to do properly to begin with, but if your finger fumbles at all during that burst, it's ruined. Once I was comfortable with the rehearsed 1-shot power burst, I swapped to practice condi bursting. I was immediately surprised at how much less effort was required to land enormous damage with condi. Sure there are optimal ways to land its condi burst but in truth, Condi Mirage can randomly push any buttons in any order while landing enormous AoE damage, and since so much of what it is doing is random AoE, 3/4ths of it's attacks don't even require having a target on an enemy.

    So I felt comfortable on both variants and went to run some unranked. I used Power Mirage first and must have ran 3 or 4 games with it. I killed some, died some, and then won some, lost some. My initial response was that Power Mirage was high risk/high reward and there was no immediate feeling of "man this class is over powered". Then I swapped the build to Condi Mirage. The first couple matches I ran were solo and the 1st thing I noticed was that I did not have to die unless I wanted to or got too greedy. Seriously though, between Portal Entre, Blink, 3x Jaunts, and 2x on demand stealths, there is questionably a bit too much wiggle room for disengagement. The sheer mobility granted through Mirage made it feel like I was playing a different game than Guild Wars 2. Even Thieves require an enemy target for most of their teleports, whereas a Mirage has 4x ground target teleports and Portal Entre. The 2nd thing I noticed is that I could play sloppy as all hell and still kill everyone that I engaged 1v1, with no real counter builds out there that the Condi Mirage couldn't handle or deal with. I'd just go in directly at them regardless of class and spam buttons as I tested different combos and they'd eventually go down due to the 3rd thing I noticed, my ridiculous level of burst and attrition. Other classes have burst or attrition, but Condi Mirage has burst and attrition. This was assisted by the 4th thing I noticed, its confusing mechanics by design. Most players, even the ones who would be competent to play against me on other classes, would just fumble targeting accuracy and timing, applying little to no offensive pressure, while the 100% uptime of heavy attrition would inevitably eat away at them because no class outside of Spellbreaker can deal with the condition application paired with consistent power damage. I felt that the mechanical value of deception offered from cycling clones, dropping enemy targeting, stealthing and superior disengagement was being highly underacknowledged by the players who defend Mirage. The 5th and most important thing that I noticed was how I could win outmanned fights, 1v2s and even one 1v3 on that particular night, while straight up 100% disengaging and playing defensively. This is something that no other class can do in quite the same way that Mirage can do it. Not only do other classes have less mobility than Mirage and a lot less stun break, but they require dedicated attack frames to land their damage. Mirage on the other, can 100% defensively retreat while spamming shatter skills whenever someone gets close to them, and then keep retreating with no real dedication towards stopping to actually engage an opponent. There was an instance in one match where I had 3 players chasing me around a far node in Skyhammer. Over the course of time, I was able to kill each player through superior mobility and waiting for opportune moments to land an easy no-dedication burst and keep running. I would have died on any other class, even a Holosmith. The 6th and final somewhat notable thing that I noticed is that even as a novice Mirage, it was incredibly easy to land into the middle of a team fight, drop a massive 4 shatter condi bomb and then completely disengage the fight with zero risk involved. Whereas on something like a Scourge or a Condi Ranger or even a Trap DH, ect.. ect.., heading into the middle of a team fight to drop a DPS bomb is a real dedication. You either win that fight or you die trying after the dedication, there are no get out of jail free cards outside of a tactful team retreat or awkwardly peeling and leaving your team behind early. I must have played 9 or 10 games on Condi Mirage that night. I won most of them but not all of them, but I kitten sure only died once on that build, and it only happened when I was meme /emoting the other team and eventually 4x players figured they'd chase me and kill me.

    After a week's worth of playing and catching up on the knowledge of all of the class metas, my response to Condi Mirage was "It feels like I'm the kitten Terminator when I play this class." In my opinion, it is inherently the most powerful class not due to the mathematical attributes tied around its skills & traits but due to it's mechanical design within the game engine. Hey, I'm not going to sit here and tell you how OP it is or what nerfs/buffs could be done to it, but I would like to compare it to other current builds being used within the S13 end season meta so users in this forum can see a better representation of what is actually going on.

    I'll use a class grading system that ranges between (F) and (S). The grades will be applied to 4x basic Conquest attributes: DPS, Self Sustain, Mobility, Team Support/Utility.

    Spellbreaker:
    * DPS (A-)
    * Self Sustain (S+)
    * Mobility (B+)
    * Team Support/Utility (C) "Its CCs do contribute to utility in team fights"

    Herald:
    * DPS (S)
    * Self Sustain (B)
    * Mobility (C+) while rotating, (A+) if chasing
    * Team Support/Utility (B+)

    Firebrand:
    * DPS (D+)
    * Self Sustain (A) "He can't 1v2 in the same way that something like a Spellbreaker can do"
    * Mobility (C+)
    * Team Support/Utility (S+)

    Core Guardian:
    * DPS (S) on JI bursts, (A-) on sustained DPS
    * Self Sustain (A) "I wouldn't grant it an S because once Renewed Focus is on CD, he's a sitting duck"
    * Mobility (C) while rotating, (B+) while chasing
    * Team Support/Utility (D-)

    Holosmith:
    * DPS (S) "I ranked it S not out of numerics but rather how easy it is to land and follow up with chain attacks"
    * Self Sustain (A+) "Regardless of its sustain 1v1, I give it only A+ because it cannot survive 1v2 focus in the same way as a Spellbreaker or Mirage"
    * Mobility (B) when rotating, (B+) when chasing
    * Team Support/Utility (S) "I give it an S because of so many CCs, blasting water fields, splashing boons, and team stealth mechanics"

    Soulbeast:
    * DPS (S++) if glass cannon roamer, (A-) if bruiser
    * Self Sustain (C) if glass cannon roamer, (B+) if bruiser
    * Mobility (A-) if glass cannon roamer, (B-) if bruiser
    * Team Support/Utility (E+) if glass cannon roamer, (B-) if running boonshare

    Deadeyes & Daredevils:
    * DPS (S++) if DE burst, (S-) Daredevil
    * Self Sustain (D) if DE burst, (C+) Daredevil
    * Mobility (S)
    * Team Support/Utility (E+)

    Reapers & Scourges:
    * DPS (S+) Reaper, (B+) Scourge
    * Self Sustain (B+) Reaper "he can't survive 1v2s", (B-) Scourge
    * Mobility (C-) Reaper, (C+) Scourge "Worm/Walk/Portal could debatably raise these grades"
    * Team Support/Utility (C-) Reaper "It does have some boon removal", (A-) Scourge

    Weaver:
    * DPS (A)
    * Self Sustain (A+) "The barrier play just isn't as strong as some would want to believe it is. I don't feel it deserves an S"
    * Mobility (B)
    * Team Support/Utility (C+)

    Power & Condi Mirages:
    * DPS (S++) with accurate power burst but only (B) with sustained power damage, it gets (S+) with sustained Condi Mirage bursting & attrition
    * Self Sustain (C) for Power and (S) for Condi
    * Mobility (S+) when on either build while using Portal/Blink/Jaunt
    * Team Support/Utility (A) with Portal Entre "The rotational control that Portal Entre grants is worth an A by itself"

    Let's sum up this grading into an easier to view list:

    • Spellbreaker: dps(A-) sus(S+) mob(B+) sup/uti(C)
    • Herald: dps(S) sus(B) mob(C+ or A+) sup/uti(B+)
    • Firebrand: dps(D+) sus(A) mob(C+) sup/uti(S+)
    • Core Guard: dps(S) sus(A) mob(C or B+) sup/uti(D-)
    • Holosmith: dps(S) sus(A+) mob(B or B+) sup/uti(S)
    • Soulbeast Roamer: dps(S++) sus(C) mob(A-) sup/uti(E+)
    • Soulbeast Bruiser: dps(A-) sus(B+) mob(B-) sup/uti(B-)
    • Deadeye: dps(S++) sus(D) mob(S) sup/uti(E+)
    • Daredevil: dps(S-) sus(C+) mob(S) sup/uti(E+)
    • Reaper: dps(S+) sus(B+) mob(C-) sup/uti(C-)
    • Scourge: dps(B+) sus(B-) mob(C+) sup/uti(A-)
    • Weaver: dps(A) sus(A+) mob(B) sup/uti(C+)
    • Power Mirage: dps(S++) sus(C) mob(S+) sup/uti(A)
    • Condi Mirage: dps(S+) sus(S) mob(S+) sup/uti(A)

    That isn't all, there is one other aspect that greatly effects a build's diversity in Conquest and in my opinion is the aspect that creates most of the argument in this forum as to "if a build is over powered or not" and that is, how easy is it to play? I won't go into another list of grading "You're welcome" but I will point two extreme examples: A Daredevil playing in plat+ divisions cannot afford to make a single error or he dies, whereas something like a Condi Mirage can actually afford to play sloppy, still pose a serious threat to whoever he engages, and escape to ooc on-demand as he wishes. Now we can argue how different play is between lower tiers, medium tiers and high tiers and some of it is true, but a lot of it is just a bunch of gobble kitten from biased players.

    But yeah, in my opinion Condi Mirage is still easily the dominant class in Conquest and that is how it would be graded alongside of the others. I figured I'd share the story & analysis with the other forum users. Draw from it what you will.

    What do u mean with condi mirage ? which build ? I don't find pure condi mirage so good. I tried full condi with rabid or trabalizer runes but i found hybrid mirage much better. With hybrid i mean carrion or viper based builds in which you add direct damage to condi damage. Probably i am not that good with scepter so , with Staff a mixed approch ( power and condi ) works much better but if you find good players , for me condi mirage is not that op. Also in wvw where you can use perplexity runes and dire, i prefer an hybrid setup .

  • Megametzler.5729Megametzler.5729 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @EUmad.7645 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    True story:

    For the first time in years, I logged in to get some practice on power/condi Mirage, this was a few days ago. If you look on my pie chart of "classes played" I have so few Mesmer games played that it doesn't even show on the pie chart, not a sliver. <- Keep that in mind.

    I loaded up a couple videos from Shorts to learn how to run Mirage bursting. I did exactly what this guy said to do in the video, I sat for about an hour and blew up a bunch of golems while getting used to power bursting. The power bursting took a real focused effort to become adept with. The power burst is fickle in the idea that, not only is it difficult to do properly to begin with, but if your finger fumbles at all during that burst, it's ruined. Once I was comfortable with the rehearsed 1-shot power burst, I swapped to practice condi bursting. I was immediately surprised at how much less effort was required to land enormous damage with condi. Sure there are optimal ways to land its condi burst but in truth, Condi Mirage can randomly push any buttons in any order while landing enormous AoE damage, and since so much of what it is doing is random AoE, 3/4ths of it's attacks don't even require having a target on an enemy.

    So I felt comfortable on both variants and went to run some unranked. I used Power Mirage first and must have ran 3 or 4 games with it. I killed some, died some, and then won some, lost some. My initial response was that Power Mirage was high risk/high reward and there was no immediate feeling of "man this class is over powered". Then I swapped the build to Condi Mirage. The first couple matches I ran were solo and the 1st thing I noticed was that I did not have to die unless I wanted to or got too greedy. Seriously though, between Portal Entre, Blink, 3x Jaunts, and 2x on demand stealths, there is questionably a bit too much wiggle room for disengagement. The sheer mobility granted through Mirage made it feel like I was playing a different game than Guild Wars 2. Even Thieves require an enemy target for most of their teleports, whereas a Mirage has 4x ground target teleports and Portal Entre. The 2nd thing I noticed is that I could play sloppy as all hell and still kill everyone that I engaged 1v1, with no real counter builds out there that the Condi Mirage couldn't handle or deal with. I'd just go in directly at them regardless of class and spam buttons as I tested different combos and they'd eventually go down due to the 3rd thing I noticed, my ridiculous level of burst and attrition. Other classes have burst or attrition, but Condi Mirage has burst and attrition. This was assisted by the 4th thing I noticed, its confusing mechanics by design. Most players, even the ones who would be competent to play against me on other classes, would just fumble targeting accuracy and timing, applying little to no offensive pressure, while the 100% uptime of heavy attrition would inevitably eat away at them because no class outside of Spellbreaker can deal with the condition application paired with consistent power damage. I felt that the mechanical value of deception offered from cycling clones, dropping enemy targeting, stealthing and superior disengagement was being highly underacknowledged by the players who defend Mirage. The 5th and most important thing that I noticed was how I could win outmanned fights, 1v2s and even one 1v3 on that particular night, while straight up 100% disengaging and playing defensively. This is something that no other class can do in quite the same way that Mirage can do it. Not only do other classes have less mobility than Mirage and a lot less stun break, but they require dedicated attack frames to land their damage. Mirage on the other, can 100% defensively retreat while spamming shatter skills whenever someone gets close to them, and then keep retreating with no real dedication towards stopping to actually engage an opponent. There was an instance in one match where I had 3 players chasing me around a far node in Skyhammer. Over the course of time, I was able to kill each player through superior mobility and waiting for opportune moments to land an easy no-dedication burst and keep running. I would have died on any other class, even a Holosmith. The 6th and final somewhat notable thing that I noticed is that even as a novice Mirage, it was incredibly easy to land into the middle of a team fight, drop a massive 4 shatter condi bomb and then completely disengage the fight with zero risk involved. Whereas on something like a Scourge or a Condi Ranger or even a Trap DH, ect.. ect.., heading into the middle of a team fight to drop a DPS bomb is a real dedication. You either win that fight or you die trying after the dedication, there are no get out of jail free cards outside of a tactful team retreat or awkwardly peeling and leaving your team behind early. I must have played 9 or 10 games on Condi Mirage that night. I won most of them but not all of them, but I kitten sure only died once on that build, and it only happened when I was meme /emoting the other team and eventually 4x players figured they'd chase me and kill me.

    After a week's worth of playing and catching up on the knowledge of all of the class metas, my response to Condi Mirage was "It feels like I'm the kitten Terminator when I play this class." In my opinion, it is inherently the most powerful class not due to the mathematical attributes tied around its skills & traits but due to it's mechanical design within the game engine. Hey, I'm not going to sit here and tell you how OP it is or what nerfs/buffs could be done to it, but I would like to compare it to other current builds being used within the S13 end season meta so users in this forum can see a better representation of what is actually going on.

    I'll use a class grading system that ranges between (F) and (S). The grades will be applied to 4x basic Conquest attributes: DPS, Self Sustain, Mobility, Team Support/Utility.

    Spellbreaker:
    * DPS (A-)
    * Self Sustain (S+)
    * Mobility (B+)
    * Team Support/Utility (C) "Its CCs do contribute to utility in team fights"

    Herald:
    * DPS (S)
    * Self Sustain (B)
    * Mobility (C+) while rotating, (A+) if chasing
    * Team Support/Utility (B+)

    Firebrand:
    * DPS (D+)
    * Self Sustain (A) "He can't 1v2 in the same way that something like a Spellbreaker can do"
    * Mobility (C+)
    * Team Support/Utility (S+)

    Core Guardian:
    * DPS (S) on JI bursts, (A-) on sustained DPS
    * Self Sustain (A) "I wouldn't grant it an S because once Renewed Focus is on CD, he's a sitting duck"
    * Mobility (C) while rotating, (B+) while chasing
    * Team Support/Utility (D-)

    Holosmith:
    * DPS (S) "I ranked it S not out of numerics but rather how easy it is to land and follow up with chain attacks"
    * Self Sustain (A+) "Regardless of its sustain 1v1, I give it only A+ because it cannot survive 1v2 focus in the same way as a Spellbreaker or Mirage"
    * Mobility (B) when rotating, (B+) when chasing
    * Team Support/Utility (S) "I give it an S because of so many CCs, blasting water fields, splashing boons, and team stealth mechanics"

    Soulbeast:
    * DPS (S++) if glass cannon roamer, (A-) if bruiser
    * Self Sustain (C) if glass cannon roamer, (B+) if bruiser
    * Mobility (A-) if glass cannon roamer, (B-) if bruiser
    * Team Support/Utility (E+) if glass cannon roamer, (B-) if running boonshare

    Deadeyes & Daredevils:
    * DPS (S++) if DE burst, (S-) Daredevil
    * Self Sustain (D) if DE burst, (C+) Daredevil
    * Mobility (S)
    * Team Support/Utility (E+)

    Reapers & Scourges:
    * DPS (S+) Reaper, (B+) Scourge
    * Self Sustain (B+) Reaper "he can't survive 1v2s", (B-) Scourge
    * Mobility (C-) Reaper, (C+) Scourge "Worm/Walk/Portal could debatably raise these grades"
    * Team Support/Utility (C-) Reaper "It does have some boon removal", (A-) Scourge

    Weaver:
    * DPS (A)
    * Self Sustain (A+) "The barrier play just isn't as strong as some would want to believe it is. I don't feel it deserves an S"
    * Mobility (B)
    * Team Support/Utility (C+)

    Power & Condi Mirages:
    * DPS (S++) with accurate power burst but only (B) with sustained power damage, it gets (S+) with sustained Condi Mirage bursting & attrition
    * Self Sustain (C) for Power and (S) for Condi
    * Mobility (S+) when on either build while using Portal/Blink/Jaunt
    * Team Support/Utility (A) with Portal Entre "The rotational control that Portal Entre grants is worth an A by itself"

    Let's sum up this grading into an easier to view list:

    • Spellbreaker: dps(A-) sus(S+) mob(B+) sup/uti(C)
    • Herald: dps(S) sus(B) mob(C+ or A+) sup/uti(B+)
    • Firebrand: dps(D+) sus(A) mob(C+) sup/uti(S+)
    • Core Guard: dps(S) sus(A) mob(C or B+) sup/uti(D-)
    • Holosmith: dps(S) sus(A+) mob(B or B+) sup/uti(S)
    • Soulbeast Roamer: dps(S++) sus(C) mob(A-) sup/uti(E+)
    • Soulbeast Bruiser: dps(A-) sus(B+) mob(B-) sup/uti(B-)
    • Deadeye: dps(S++) sus(D) mob(S) sup/uti(E+)
    • Daredevil: dps(S-) sus(C+) mob(S) sup/uti(E+)
    • Reaper: dps(S+) sus(B+) mob(C-) sup/uti(C-)
    • Scourge: dps(B+) sus(B-) mob(C+) sup/uti(A-)
    • Weaver: dps(A) sus(A+) mob(B) sup/uti(C+)
    • Power Mirage: dps(S++) sus(C) mob(S+) sup/uti(A)
    • Condi Mirage: dps(S+) sus(S) mob(S+) sup/uti(A)

    That isn't all, there is one other aspect that greatly effects a build's diversity in Conquest and in my opinion is the aspect that creates most of the argument in this forum as to "if a build is over powered or not" and that is, how easy is it to play? I won't go into another list of grading "You're welcome" but I will point two extreme examples: A Daredevil playing in plat+ divisions cannot afford to make a single error or he dies, whereas something like a Condi Mirage can actually afford to play sloppy, still pose a serious threat to whoever he engages, and escape to ooc on-demand as he wishes. Now we can argue how different play is between lower tiers, medium tiers and high tiers and some of it is true, but a lot of it is just a bunch of gobble kitten from biased players.

    But yeah, in my opinion Condi Mirage is still easily the dominant class in Conquest and that is how it would be graded alongside of the others. I figured I'd share the story & analysis with the other forum users. Draw from it what you will.

    What do u mean with condi mirage ? which build ? I don't find pure condi mirage so good. I tried full condi with rabid or trabalizer runes but i found hybrid mirage much better. With hybrid i mean carrion or viper based builds in which you add direct damage to condi damage. Probably i am not that good with scepter so , with Staff a mixed approch ( power and condi ) works much better but if you find good players , for me condi mirage is not that op. Also in wvw where you can use perplexity runes and dire, i prefer an hybrid setup .

    This is mostly about PVP, so no Vipers and stuff. :wink: In WvW it's a different story, but in PVP most condi mirages run sage or carrion. So, yes, also kinda hybrid, but the focus is clearly on condi damage. Most play with ineptitude for the extra blind + confusion.

    Apart from that there are actually a lot of variations, staff, scepter, sword, axe, the traitlines... a lot is actually somehow viable and playable, depending on the role you want to fullfill and how tanky you want to be against power or condis. I actually wish every class had the variability condi mirage has. Problem is... it is still a bit op overall. :tongue: Even though boonbeast, holo and all the others feel too strong for too little effort too. I'd still like to nerf them all! :lol:

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 16, 2018

    @allias.1420 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    @incisorr.9502
    Yes but the top of the leaderboards doesn't exactly represent any fair play and/or real demonstration of class performance in real matches either. We can all pretend that match manipulation isn't REAL but it is and there is no coincidence that "every time", might I stress "every time" I have had a match against a top 10 player this season, I mysteriously get a DC on my team. "every time"

    Why is it happening? Well streaming seems to be linked to all of the obvious win trading I've seen this season. I'm pretty sure what is left of the win trading community is just predominantly about commercial interests via twitch. It's real simple to understand "no one wants to watch a loser." <- It's true, I know it's true, they know it's true, although it's hush to ever discuss these things publicly for obvious reasons. It's whatever in my book at this point, but don't you dare even act like that kitten is real and use it as a sword while discussing class balance. I mean it's no different of an incentive than flooding a twitch chat with a load of bots that randomly talk about random things for 6 hours while someone is streaming, to make it look active. They do what they have to do to remain noticed, I get it. Not saying all of them, but a lot of them do. Just don't bring that fake kitten in as a sword into real discussions. It isn't right and it's embarrassing.

    Hahahaha. Who on earth wants to wintrade to be noticed on twitch? GW2 pvp in twitch gets people like 50 viewers if that? People don't want to watch that kitten whether they win or lose lmao

    It's more like 700 to 900 viewers at any given point in time of day. That's still a lot of possible subscriptions for the guys left who are trying hard. And they get sort of pigeonholed into wintrading because if they are only top 150 whilst some other streamer or two are playing in top 10, who do you think that remaining player base is going to choose to watch?

    I'm not saying all of them do it but let's face it, it starts to get pretty obvious what's going on when your team is 4v5 "every" time you have some of these guys in a match against you. Honestly, if they had the luxury to come in here and talk so openly about it like I do, they'd probably beg Arenanet to fix this problem so they could play again without having to keep up with the fake rat race. It's got to feel bad after awhile. But you've got to understand that the incentive here is all twitch based "for most of them at least". There is actual USD involved in this stuff and any time real money is on the table, people do messed up things to win. Wintrading in a video game is an incredibly small offense compared to the other kinds of nasty things people do to get money, so the truth to this shouldn't surprise you much.

    @EUmad.7645 Indeed, Condi Mirage is a Carrion based build. Pretty sure this was mentioned in my OP post.

  • Spartacus.3192Spartacus.3192 Member ✭✭✭

    I dunno man. I choose who i want to watch on stream not based on their leaderboard ranking but based on how entertaining their channel is or how informative and interactive they are with their viewers.

  • Bossun.2046Bossun.2046 Member ✭✭✭

    @Vagrant.7206 said:
    I don't have too many troubles with condi mirage on my holo. But I also run a non-meta Sword/Shield Conversion build. Condi mirages tend to kill themselves trying to hurt me.

    Yeah, on conversion Holo, Condi mirages just die around me. On Elixer Holo though, they are a really tough 1v1.

    sugoi monogatari oniichan

  • @EUmad.7645 Indeed, Condi Mirage is a Carrion based build. Pretty sure this was mentioned in my OP post.

    Carrion is not a pure condi setup. You have also a really good direct damage with sword and staff ambush .... and in my opinion , what makes that build stronger than GS burst is the staff 2 skill ... you can create clone and outplace yourself, it is really a strong strong life saver and gs has nothing similar.

  • brappish.8715brappish.8715 Member ✭✭✭

    @Toron.4856 said:

    @ZeroTheCat.2684 said:
    lol what??? How are you complaining about mesmers when there are much more broken classes out there. Look at the Holo kitten! Or the warrior. Every game now 2 holos. and the team without loses. Nice balance Anet. gg.

    When u think war and holo r more busted than mirage ur obv a woodtier player that has a l2p issue.

    Holo and war both can be outplayed and have weaknesses. Mirage doesn't.

    Almost every match I join is x2 holo or x2 reaper or x2 ranger lol....MESMER ISNT BROKE..

    Honestly nerf mesmer to the ground, go ahead, make the clones hit 2 dps, people will still be dying and QQing about it because they just cant figure out the fight. blahblahblah

    Overpowered.

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @EUmad.7645 said:

    @EUmad.7645 Indeed, Condi Mirage is a Carrion based build. Pretty sure this was mentioned in my OP post.

    Carrion is not a pure condi setup. You have also a really good direct damage with sword and staff ambush .... and in my opinion , what makes that build stronger than GS burst is the staff 2 skill ... you can create clone and outplace yourself, it is really a strong strong life saver and gs has nothing similar.

    I guess my point is that, I don't think anyone ever thought Carrion was just a condi amulet to begin with my man.

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Spartacus.3192 said:
    I dunno man. I choose who i want to watch on stream not based on their leaderboard ranking but based on how entertaining their channel is or how informative and interactive they are with their viewers.

    The viewer base reflects a few things though:

    • The higher the level of competition, the more entertaining, even if it's just an illusion.
    • Informative means nothing if people don't believe the information is coming from a top tier player.
    • Interactive properties alone can draw a viewer base, but when a player is both interactive and a top tier player, they will get much more viewer base.
  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kako.1930 said:
    If a Condi Mesmer loses to anything else 1v1, that's the real l2p issue lol. Winning 1v1 against anything is completely easymode on condi mes unless you've been seriously outplayed. Even after all the nerfs.

    I have not lost a 1v1 once against condi mirage on core guardian in the last 3-4 month. And that is not cuz I am amazing player (I am okay) and not cuz every mirage I faced is bad. I just 2v1 two condi mirages that I would say were between gold 2 - platinum 1 skill level, yesterday.

  • Huskyboy.1053Huskyboy.1053 Member ✭✭✭

    @otto.5684 said:

    @Toron.4856 said:

    @Axl.8924 said:
    And this here people is why we got power meta now.Condi was cried about for so long, that now condi cleanses are op and people still cry even though not many reliable condi builds in pvp.

    Most classes don't have enough cleanse to fight condi mirage. The only class having more than enough cleanse to fight condi mirage is guardian and well spellbreaker if u play the tanky d/sh build but everyone plays strength ans tether atm.

    And yes we have a power meta and 9.9/10 dont want any change.

    The following build do well agains mirage in order of effectiveness:

    Core guardian
    Holo
    SB (somewhat)
    Soul beast is not bad (as long that you have GS)
    Weaver sword is alright
    Reaper is not bad
    Scourge is also okay

    Only rev and thief have limited options against mirage. And not every class must have more than enough cleanses to fight condis. Cuz if that is the case no one will play condi builds.

    And the meta currently sucks. We do need more condi viable builds and support builds. Not every kitten build should be a pure power dps, except mirage scourge and FB. We need variety.

    This is only partly accurate. I'll say where I agree and disagree in regards to condi Mirage:

    • Core guardian. Agreed, guard wins.
    • Holo. Agreed, unless the holo is taking Tools and doesn't take Photon Wall
    • Spellbreaker. Disagree, only wins if the SB owns the node, otherwise it's effectively a losing fight. And if the Mirage is challenging SB on the SB's node, the Mirage player is an idiot. We shouldn't be taking into account idiotic plays by the Mirage.
    • Soulbeast, disagree. Fails against the Dueling variant, which shuts down longbow pretty hard via Reflect. I would put Soulbeast as a pretty bad matchup except maybe against Viper condi Mirage in a situation where the Soulbeast ganks them, thereby taking out a large amount of health at the beginning of the fight.
    • Weaver sword, disagree. Does horribly unless the Mirage stands on point while trying to 1v1. And the only situation in which the Weaver "wins" is if the condi mirage decides to spend 2 mins 1v1ing the Weaver on the Weaver's node. Which is essentially an irrelevant matchup since in that case the Mirage player is an idiot.
    • Reaper is trash against the Mirage unless again the Mirage is an idiot and frontloads their entire burst before the Reaper uses their heal. Easy win.
    • Scourge, agree, unless the Scourge has minimal shroud. In that case, Mirage wins. Very conditional fight.
  • Silence.3702Silence.3702 Member ✭✭✭

    It's a ridiculously powerful class with stunbreak on dodge,good mobility,hard to target, very good damage and condition,alot of pressure and makes any class look weak
    and i just started !

    so lets nerf spiteful spirit

    Cries in ele

©2010–2018 ArenaNet, LLC. All rights reserved. Guild Wars, Guild Wars 2, Heart of Thorns, Guild Wars 2: Path of Fire, ArenaNet, NCSOFT, the Interlocking NC Logo, and all associated logos and designs are trademarks or registered trademarks of NCSOFT Corporation. All other trademarks are the property of their respective owners.