Raids in 2k18 became farm fiesta. Remove rewards from the old wings finally. And fix it, please
Xar.1387
Member ✭✭
I feel like raids turns into dungeons in 2018. And it became a farm fiesta. There's alot of old bosses and wings that community mastered to perfection. Even doing it lowman etc, etc. And right now its more like farming easy things to get gold and stuff, rather than looking for challengies. Alot of people skip hard things, cause there's no reason to do it. Because they just can select easier (old) bosses and wings to get rewards (gold, loot etc etc). Its because reward and progression systems in Guild Wars 2 are very different from those in other mmorpg's. Here's no gear progression. So e.g gold is main reward because of that.
I would love to see more focus on the new things. Like new raid wings and new bosses. Faster than once per year. Progression, rather than farming old bosses again and again.
That's why IMO ArenaNet should delete rewards like gold and loot from old wings. Because its very, very old content. People should do it just for achievements, and stuff like that. If they're new and still dont have it. Or if they wants to do legendary armor and things like that. But why loot? Its not new content anymore.
http://aiwe.eu - Polish (RolePlay / Raid / PvP) guild
Comments
This thread will surely be entertaining. :popcorn:
Also I disagree. (With the whole kill off old content, because that has worked tremendously in the past already)
Doing old content for achievements and legendary armor dont mean it will be dead
HoT raids are older with every year. players' skills are increasing. While the rewards are the same.
It shouldnt work like that.
http://aiwe.eu - Polish (RolePlay / Raid / PvP) guild
Yes, because everyone who wants to get those rewards has gotten them, right? because i know i havent gotten all the rewards i want yet.
And no, killing off content is bad, regardless of the reasons.
Amana Silentchild; My Main
Ember Wandertooth; The Kingslayer, Kianda Redpaw; The Blazing Light
Why GW is Called Guildwars
Ok longer answer:
It's clear that Raids have been a learning experience for both the players and the developers as time went on. This is very noticable in the newer wings with more intricate mechanics to both perform by the players (distance based aggro at Qadim, Largos CM making it necessary to jump off the arena) and which designs work (Evolution of Handkiter at Deimos to Messengerkiter at Dhuum to Elementalkiter at Qadim). Many people have become so confortable with W1-4 that nowadays I see more and more LFGs without huge LI/KP or any requirements at all outside of very specific cases (Xera, Deimos).
Truth is, Powercreep has certainly a lot to do with that (Scourge, Holosmith, Mirage, Deadeye) but also better balancing (Compare HoTs "2 Chrono, 2 Druid, 2 Berserker, Herald, 3 Tempest" Metacomp with todays incredible fluid composition of "2 Chrono, 1 Druid, 1Warr, 6 DPS(5 DPS+1Healer"). In return, the average skill of the playerbase certainly has improved to the point that - I at least - do not care how well someone is performing as long as the fight doesn't become a total disaster.
And since I mentioned HoT: W1-W4 are HoT Content, W5-WX are PoF Content. By removing the rewards/killing off the content you greatly reduce the value of the expansion while also making it harder for people to get into raiding because you remove the incentive for a lot of players still doing them, be it for Skins, LI or the liquid gold. Even if you are insanely good at running W1-W4 you would still make less gold per hour than farming Istan, Silverwastes and especially the Halloween Labyrinth.
This is how well-done raids works in mmorpg's. Once people master it to the perfection it dont reward people anymore. And it goes to the trash cause its not "raid" anymore. It's already worn out. Task is done - players learned it. Its over. Ppl start to avoid mechanics etc etc. Its time for community to fully focus on new bosses.
Bosses dont change - they're always the same. Their difficulty dont increase. While game changes
E.g
VG - no green
Gorse - no updraft
Etc, etc
Rewards?
Same
XD
Most ppl dont understand it. But if Anet wont change it in the future. Somehow. It will work negatively on raiding community.
They will just burnout sooner or later.
http://aiwe.eu - Polish (RolePlay / Raid / PvP) guild
Well this isn't every other MMO, this is GW2.
There are still people learning the old raids and rewards are not an issue.
Very passive aggressively chuckling, because I'm totally not mad on the Internet.
Exactly. And other mmorpg's dont have that problem at all. Cause there's gear treadmill.
Just GW2 got this problem
IMO good solution for Anet is to delete rewards like loot and gold from old wings.
Just leave achievements there. Cause new people should be able to do it if they want. Why not.
And focus more on the new raid wings. Release it much faster than 1 per year.
http://aiwe.eu - Polish (RolePlay / Raid / PvP) guild
Deleting rewards from old wings wont magicaly make them produce new raids faster.
Yes, yes it should, that's exactly how it's supposed to be lol.
Older wings become cheese for veteran raiders while the newer ones are the next challenge, there's nothing wrong in that imho.
Moreover a free 2g+1 random crappy exotic (most of the times) is not that much of a reward and it should be increased instead! I mean c'mon, doing SW or Istan yields much more than raids! Does it sounds normal?
"Sticks and stones may break your bones but words will never be able to injure you!"
The Grim Adventures of Billy & Mandy
Yeah. But anyway its all connected.
No new wings added regularly + Still rewarding for old ones = Raids become farm fiesta
http://aiwe.eu - Polish (RolePlay / Raid / PvP) guild
As hilarious as it would be to see old raids be taken out back and shot to make new content look better in comparison, like was done to dungeons for their sake, I'm really wondering what your stake in this is...
https://old.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/9ptwoc/raids_in_2k18_became_farm_fiesta_remove_rewards/
The response on Reddit seem to be mostly the same: GW2 is not the game you are seeking, if you want planned obsolescence. What good does it do the community to reduce the rewards? What about people who just started the game today?
How does removing older content make that happen? The vast majority of ANet's focus on the game is on adding new stuff, which is why older bugs can take forever to address. And even so, they don't have enough time to implement all the ideas that they (and we) want to.
And finally, what's wrong with people skipping stuff they don't like, once they get the idea of how its done?
I'm not against ANet adjusting the ghost phases of VG: they aren't fun after the first or second time, and they take up a lot of time. However, that's got nothing to do with what people do in the rest of the instance.
"Face the facts. Then act on them. It's ...the only doctrine I have to offer you, & it's harder than you'd think, because I swear humans seem hardwired to do anything but. Face the facts. Don't pray, don't wish, ...FACE THE FACTS. THEN act." — Quellcrist Falconer
No thanks.
Why do you call it a problem though? Why shouldn't people be rewarded for still running older content? Why shouldn't it exist as an additional source for some gold? Since many raiders actually enjoy clearing doing full clears and getting the flat gold rewards every week?
Very passive aggressively chuckling, because I'm totally not mad on the Internet.
Players dont do raids for gold. You can get more gold by farming silverwastes for 1 hr than you can doign a full clear of w1-4. Players do them for LI or for the fun of clearing the content.
People are still doing new raids almost as much as old ones. Only reason they are not run as much is they are considered 'harder' and therefore theres less people who have the needed skill to complete them.
Anet already addressed the issue of people farming old content for new rewards by changing LI in POF raids to LD.
While we’re at it, let’s remove rewards from HoT metas, Silverwastes, and World Bosses. Heart of Thorns and core Tyria is soooo last expansion, Path of Fire is what’s “in” right now.
Let's remove rewards from Queensdale after all everyone should be done with it by now (and the other starting zones)
What good could possibly come from removing old content? Some veteran players may not like old content, but some veteran players and new players do. Should anet remove ALL old content, and focus solely on new content, only to remove it once newer content comes out? That'll isolate a lot of players and reduce the player population.
Not only that but, if you remove what little rewards the old content gives, why would the people who have cleared the old content ever come back to it and help new players earn the various rewards, such as legendary armor? This is such a stupid idea.
Whoever closes his ear to the cry of the poor will himself call out and not be answered.
Remove rewards from Palawadan! Storywise the place has been surely be reclaimed by now. ( ͡☉ ͜ʖ ͡☉)
(Also all of Orr, it's 2k18 people! The Risen are culled for the most part!)
Raids should actually have MORE rewards. As it is right now even PvPing my way into ranked with a cheese build that I win 50/50 is more profitable. If anything raids have too little incentive to be played and specially replayed (one in a time CMs are already a thing like you suggest to normals, and it is considered largely to be a failure).
Dont compare raids - endgame, challenging content to the open world, please.
It's a different thing.
Also as u can see I didnt wrote about deleting EVERYTHING there.
Ofc there should be an option to get achievements, titles and things like that.
Look. I will ask u something. As wiki says: Raids are the "ultimate challenge".
Is e.g Vale Guardian still that challenge? No. Its 2old to be a challenge anymore.
IMO its not "raid" anymore. And calling it like that is kind of pathetic. And also shows the game in a bad way.
New players focused on raids will simply laugh at it and go away.
It shouldnt be rewarded SAME WAY as in 2k15 when people were doing it. Its almost 2019 here guys.
http://aiwe.eu - Polish (RolePlay / Raid / PvP) guild
Its the same comparison. If you remove rewards from older raids they WILL die off, Achievements arent enough to draw people to older content in droves. Without being able to get the ascended armor, weapons, minis, the raid currency, nobody will want to participate in them making it nearly immpossible for groups of newer players to do those raids, newer players i might who may have never raided in any game before and they WILL find those paths difficult until they learn them. So i repeat, it should stay the same. They may not be hard to people like you, but to people like me who dont run them often due to difficulty as it is in finding players to do those paths, they need those rewards and they need to stay the same.
Amana Silentchild; My Main
Ember Wandertooth; The Kingslayer, Kianda Redpaw; The Blazing Light
Why GW is Called Guildwars
Do new content then? That's most important thing in raids anyway - doing new challenges.
?
Also. How many players made Dhuum CM? Maybe when they wont farm that much, then they will find more time to progress things
And experience real raiding. Rather than farm fiesta raiding which consumes ALOT of ppl's time.
http://aiwe.eu - Polish (RolePlay / Raid / PvP) guild
Heart of Thorns Raids provide access to Legendary Armor. If they remove the rewards other than titles and achievements then fewer and fewer players will run the older Raids, meaning players starting the game later (or wanting to Raid later) will find it progressively harder to get into groups. This is terrible design, not everyone has Legendary Armor already.
I think once there are enough raids so I can raid 5 times a week for 2 hours and not repeat a singe encounter we can start talking about removeing some rewards.
Right now you can clear everything in one evening and then you will be doing nothing or you will repeat some encounters for whole weak without any reward. If raids had daily rewards then tuning down some of the rewards might be ok idea. Your idea will not force anyone into new raids because they are already forced. They will not get rewards for clearing bosses 2 times a week but they will kill the easier bosses in few days and then they will have nothing to do.
Wings shouldnt be lowered in reward for then they could aswell remove them raids is still generating less gold than riba and tarir and istan. And these are hot wings so you mean kick out those who dont own pof from rewards for you think raids who rewards 1 time per week and boss is to farmy. And raid team is small so the rate they release wings is as fast as they can. And becuse other mmos does 1 thing dont make it good. The 2 latest wings is path of fire only. Removing rewards would probly kill off raids since new people wont have help from experianced and then raids dies
I just created new joke. No offence ofc - its just a joke.
"What does the GW2 raider in WoW? Farming TBC raids in 2k18"
How do u like it?
http://aiwe.eu - Polish (RolePlay / Raid / PvP) guild
No reason to kill old content as long as Anet needs so long to make new content
old dungeon still there.. old fractal still there.. I still meet newb there xD
as with raids... some doing it. some quit. some h a v e never d o n e it.
Death is Energy [DIE] in EU
Envoy's Herald, CoZ, VitV, DD, SS, The Eternal, LNHB, Champion Magus, Champion Phantom, Wondrous Achiever etc.
Sorry, no, it's not the "most" important thing. It's important and perhaps the only thing important to you, but there are other things important to others.
And if, for you, the most important thing in raids is doing new challenges, then what's stopping you from sticking to that? Embrace the fact that there are other things distracting "farmers" and new players from interfering with your areas of interest.
"Face the facts. Then act on them. It's ...the only doctrine I have to offer you, & it's harder than you'd think, because I swear humans seem hardwired to do anything but. Face the facts. Don't pray, don't wish, ...FACE THE FACTS. THEN act." — Quellcrist Falconer
Raid is raid. Its not dungeon, open world pve or something else.
Even wiki calls it "ultimate challenge".
And here's simple question: is VG still that "ultimate challenge"? No. So its not raid anymore. Deal with it.
http://aiwe.eu - Polish (RolePlay / Raid / PvP) guild
So how about you dont farm it if you dont want and dont create useless threads? It's obvious majority here is against while you try to prove smth. Deal with it.
Yep, I can do everything i want. I know. But it wont change the raids direction at all.
And also: direction they made affect to every raider anyway. So...
http://aiwe.eu - Polish (RolePlay / Raid / PvP) guild
There is 0 reason to remove rewards from content just cause its old. Otherwise why haven't the removed rewards from Tier 1-3 fractals? I can practically solo most low tier fractals on a thief with a few changes, does that mean the rewards should be removed? No. They already provide less then Tier 4, so there's no need to removed them.
Dungeons are also a lot easier and provide arguably more resources and gold then they did when they were released. The main reason no one does them anymore is that to get the gold you need to do 8 paths (rather then just the 3 or 4 quick ones everyone loved to do) and most of the gold comes from using tokens to buy items and then salvage so the reward isn't as in their face and obvious. There was also a period of time where Dungeon rewards were rubbish and as a result quite a lot of the regular dungeoneers stopped doing them and just never went back. But the dungeons as a whole should never be removed nor should the rewards. Most people I know were really upset with Anet when the reduced them for no real good reason
You can get you capped of 150 shards without touching Wing 1, all you get is some Exo's and chances at some Acsended and Mini's that you probably have gotten 5 times over. The main reason I still do wing 1 is for the Li (565 / 750 for the 3 legendary armour) and the chance at a free Ghostly Infusion. I really don't know what your problem with it other then its called a raid and you don't like that its easier now. No green VG and no Updraft Gorsavel were doable before PoF came out, even managed to 5-man VG in the first couple months. So the only thing that changed is that it became the norm rather then not.
Why haven't they removed rewards from Mad Kings Labrynth? An hour or two in there with a little luck and I made over 300 gold (Got the infusion). Thats easily more g/hr then any raid wing. Istan, Silverwastes are easily more g/hr then raiding. Should we nerf those too? If not why are they special?
Wow doesn't remove old raids (well, most of them). They just become so out-levelled no one does them. GW2 doesn't have the same approach as WoW. You gain more levels every expansion in WoW leading to the gear treadmill over and over and over making any and all gear in previous expansions objectively inferior and only running old raids when you've hit max level and just one shot everything to get transmog. The rewards aren't removed however. It isn't "pointless" to run them. They are just "pointless" to the gear treadmill.
What you are suggesting would make the first wing outright pointless to run. You don't severely outgear it to the point where you can one shot bosses. None of the bosses have drops that are extremely rare and can't get anywhere else. It would make it a ghost town for everyone short of people trying to get the legendary armour and the maybe occasionally achievement run.
So I've got to ask. What benefit would the game have by removing rewards from Wing 1? If you don't want to run Wing 1 cause it boring then don't run it. No one is forcing you. GW2 raid bosses are not the same as WoW raid bosses. Don't treat them as such.
Clearly the op wants raids to die.
People with this type of request should just leave IMO.
Not to mention that this suggestion, if implemented, would only further increase the gulf between raiders and non-raiders in GW2. The vast majority of the GW2 populace still do not do raids (or even T4 fractals). Left unchecked, this would create a situation where the devs are essentially making content for two completely different sets of people; raiders find PvE content utterly boring and tedious, and non-raiders find raids too difficult or unfun. Games need a constant infusion of new blood in order to stay viable (farming or making things grindy will only work for so long. For proof, look at how the LS maps basically become dead zones as soon as the new map comes out and the zerg flocks to it), so content needs to appeal to as broad a range of people as possible, otherwise once players get bored and move on (like what you're doing now, OP), there's nobody left to keep the content alive. Your suggestion would essentially funnel more of the already small pool of raiders into even tighter niches, which further makes it even more unprofitable for the devs to create new raid content.
This isn't a seasonal game when with every new season, gear gets obsolete and new dungeons (bosses) are being introduced. All we have here is those 6 wings.
Besides, how exactly removing reward from HoT wings will help to develop more raids, more quickly? Why do you care what people farm at first place?
"There is always a lighthouse, there's always a man, there's always a city."
Have you ever seen a squad of total raid beginners seen at VG? Its still a challenge for new players.
And dhuum is challange for you? Uf you are good raider and try kill bosses few times then they are easy. Does it mean that we should remove each boss after lets say 10 kills because after that it is not a challange?
For some players VG is still ultimate challange. And for some others, bosses are challanging only for first week after release.
How do you define challange? This is pve, after reliable strategy is established all bosses will not be challanging because you know exactly what is gonna happen.
And for me personaly, vg is one of my favorite bosses.
As I have already said. For most of the week I am Killing raidbosses for no reward or I am not playing gw2 because you can easily clear all raids in 1-2 evenings and you have 5 more days to go without any reward. Remove rewards and I will be raidy for free.
I would maybe understand your point if you had too many raids so most players would have to chose which they will do. Right now you just dont have tgat many raids so this cannot happen.
The reason why some players dont do certain bosses is because they are harder. And if at some points raids were harder because of powercreep than those players wouldnt go for the easier bosses too.
And why is ut bad that someone can farm raids when you have limited reward and brainlessly farming sw/istan... Is more profitable?
Vale Guardian is harder than Escort, Cairn and maybe even the Conjured Amalgamate for newer groups. Just because you had years of experience with it doesn't mean VG isn't the "ultimate challenge" (for first wing boss) for newer groups.
This discussion doesn't matter, I still can't get into any groups for W5 and W6 despite how easy it is, it's as bad as finding a job IRL.
Remove rewards from core game And hot an ls3 maps. Its "old" content. Ppl farm here. Lololo. This mentality
Jokaurene
Its different between farming new bosses (i dont have any problem with that) and those which gets so OLD. Like 3, 4, 5 years old <.<
Cause farm fiesta exist. They're more focused on doing w1-w4, rather than going more on w5, w6. And training it etc etc. Doing dhuum cm for example.
How many players done dhuum cm already? Not much. Its because there's anyway 2much to do for alot of players. Farm fiesta takes alot of their time. So they got no time and willingness for challengies. Its because raids changes into farming place.
http://aiwe.eu - Polish (RolePlay / Raid / PvP) guild
And W1-4 offering Legendary Armor instead of a Legendary Ring has nothing to do with it... or that CMs are a one-time deal. There are lots of reasons for w5 and w6 to have lower numbers, other than "farming".
Also. Current situation surely dont push ArenaNet to create more NEW raid wings 2fast. its because they pick "farm fiesta" way of developing raids. Rather than focus more on progression. Amount of content only raises. It does not decrease, right? So they cant just put 4 new raid wings per year just like that. Even if Raid Team could do it. They will simply stop them. Current rewarding system stops it. Of course its cool that we have alot to do in raids, but its just illusion. Cause it does not change the fact thats VERY OLD content.
And I dont think this way of developing raids helps with creating new challenging raids. IMO they will be afraid of doing it. Because when raids slowly changes into farm - and amount of raids just raises - then it will be much harder for them to release any really challenging wing. And focus mainly on their difficulty. No with that hump on the back (farm fiesta).
http://aiwe.eu - Polish (RolePlay / Raid / PvP) guild
No they simply have not enough hands to develop raids faster at the of the day GW2 works for LW and story driven game. The fact that raiding community is small have a good reason too. Most of the GW2 community doesn't raid for this reason or other. This game never was about raids
"There is always a lighthouse, there's always a man, there's always a city."
Btw. I dont have ANY problem with open pve, fractals, dungeons, etc etc farming. It's the right place to do it.
But its not good when raids ("ultimate challenge" content) slowly changes into another farming place. For example. Even some fractals (special type of DUNGEON) right now are harder than RAIDS. Its just pathetic
IMO its not good when EVERY game mode changes into farm after all. Let raids be raids.
http://aiwe.eu - Polish (RolePlay / Raid / PvP) guild
They are more focused on doing w1-w4 which can be done in few hours and after that they provide no reward to speak of. W5 and w6 are harder because they require all players to do the mechanics. Thats the reason why some players skip them. They think it is too hard to bother. Its not like they cannot do them because w1-w4 takes too much of their time.
Your farm fiesta takes maybe 4 hours from 168. I know players that farm sw 4 hours each day.
Raid community becoming smaller (because it would be the inevitable end of your suggestion, i'm afraid), would hardly motivate them to put more effort into doing new raids, don't you think?
Same thing. They simply aim at a bigger group of players. Making raids more challenging than they already are makes that group smaller.
Dhuum CM completion rates on efficiency are at 1.5% not because other raiders do not want to do it, but because they simply can't. It's too challenging for them. Removing rewards for old wings will not increase those completion rates. It will not increase number of people running new wings. It will simply decrease number of people doing old ones, and shrink the community. Which is not likely to have positive impact on raid release rates.
The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.
So let's address the elephant in the room, how are we going to deal with past builds and balancing which made content significantly easier temporarily?
Topic creator makes 1 fatal assumption: that all difficulty decrease is plain due to power creep of classes.
While some of that is true due to rebalanced and new elite specializations, most power creep has come due to changes to mechanics and equalization of damage builds as well as increased number of dps spots available. The rest is due to better tactics and organization from the raid community.
There have been severely more powerful builds available in game compaired to current available builds as far back as beginning of HoT. The majority of the player base simply did not make use of them because the raid community was in an infant stage. Thus the assumption that reduction in rewards is warrented is basically flawed.
TL;DR: the proposed solution to a at best minor problem shows the lack of TCS understanding of both the current and past raid metals and balance.