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Do raids need easy/normal/hard difficulty mode? [merged]


Lonami.2987

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@Digit.1823 said:It made absolute sense because of this quote.Nothing of this implies that "people should get the exact same amount of rewards for every difficulty", in fact I explicitly stated that they should get less which is why you don't have a point here. You're just reading stuff into it while also ignoring what the post you quoted actually said wich is on you.

@Digit.1823 said:You follow it up saying that reduced rewards like fractals are the way to go, but what in your opinion are reduced rewards like fractals?Completing the content on a lower difficulty gets you a significantly reduced amount of the exact same time-gated stuff and some items drop less frequently. If that doesn't make any sense to you then I don't know what to tell you as it is a rather simple concept to grasp.

@Digit.1823 said:prestige is an immensely poor argumentI agree but I'm not the one using it as an argument so what's your point?

@Digit.1823 said:they can work their way up to normal mode and claim the main rewards in the intended difficulty modeAs I said earlier those who only care about rewards are just going to ignore the lower difficulties.

@Digit.1823 said:"Legendary items are participation rewards, nothing more"? ... What do you mean with this?I already mentioned it earlier but seems like you didn't actually read my other posts (despide you claiming otherwise): they're long term goals to keep players engaged with the content.

@Digit.1823 said:Also "buying raids" isn't exactly the same as actually doing the raids, that much is trueThen why should they "deserve" better rewards than someone who actually did put at least some effort into it? Because they paid money which they got from content that's even easier than that? You asked about "what people deserve" but at the same time don't seem to have any problems with stuff like this, seems like your complaints are rather empty. The whole question can also be flipped on its head: Why should they deserve fundamentally different rewards on a higher difficulty mode when the core content is essentially the same and (like you said) prestige is not an argument? To make higher difficulties more rewarding? That would also be coverd by a substantial increase in quantity.

@Digit.1823 said:And raid-sellers do not need to pressure Anet into doing anything here, because their official stance is that they condone the activity because people are free to choose how to spend their own time and gold. If a group of players want to sell raids, that's fine. If people want to buy raids, that's fine. It's like with the old "Droknar runs" in GW1. That was fine too, i don't see how that should change now.So what? This reply doesn't even make any sense as I was referring to the people who complain about the "value" of their precious prestige items as a symbol of personal skill being tarnished by something like an easy mode while at the same time not having any problem with raid selling whatsoever. How you get from "I don't take people who are not consistent about their self proclaimed standards seriously" to "A-Net should do something about raid selling" is beyond me.

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@"Ze Dos Cavalos.6132" said:Now tell me did u only see 1 streamer get kicked or have you seen multiple streamers getting kicked?Maybe that streamer had some elitist attitude and the commander didn't want that kind of player.Some players think they are special just because they are in a "famous" guild.

Nah, multiple streamers.

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Whoa this thread's still going. I suppose I shouldn't be surprised.

How many people have actually put their foot forward to get into raids? I halfway want to gear up for it; probably make Ascended Grieving weapons and armor for Reaper, with what I think is minmaxed, just to see how much I can pull.

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@Tails.9372 said:

@Digit.1823 said:You follow it up saying that reduced rewards like fractals are the way to go, but what in your opinion are reduced rewards like fractals?Completing the content on a lower difficulty gets you a significantly reduced amount of the exact same time-gated stuff and some items drop less frequently. If that doesn't make any sense to you then I don't know what to tell you as it is a rather simple concept to grasp.

I'm glad we can finally get to the core of your argument so i can ignore all the other fluff and smoke. Because nitpicking my comment and ranting isn't helping the conversation move forward.

So it basically boils down to you saying: Story/easy mode raids should get all the rewards, albeit in a reduced fashion and lowered drop chance. Sound about right?

I'm pretty sure this conversation has played out before in this 4k+ post mega thread, either between other people or maybe even between you and someone else and others have already stated why this shouldn't happen. I say shouldn't because hey, Anet might cave and give in to the demands, who knows.

Unfortunately this is not how the reward structure of raids works right now in regards to LI or Legendary Armor. In programming language it would be between 1's and 0's:

  • You can work towards Legendary Armor and get LI's = 1
  • You can't work towards Legendary Armor and get LI's = 0

Even if you time-gate it more by making it so that only a full wing clear gets you 1 LI, or killing a boss get's you 1/10th of an LI is not a valid reason for giving a watered down version of the current format all the rewards available. Again this is players proceeding to get equally rewarded for putting in less effort, which is logically unfair. Merely making it more time-gated means sure they will take longer, but considering they will beat bosses more quickly and easily because bosses will have less hp/less damage/more forgiving mechanics or players get buffed so they do more damage makes the effort of actually doing/clearing the raids significantly easier.

Currently LI's are also very bad to consider as currency considering you only get 1 per boss anyway and it is as of this post only used in the making of Legendary Armor, it literally serves no other purpose then that. They are also stored in the material storage and not the wallet, making it seem that Anet also does not consider LI's currency. It's not like as you say with fractals where Tier 1 nets you like 5 - 8 fractal relics per completed level. And Tier 4 nets you around 18 - 20 relics which you can use to buy a plethora of items from the various fractal vendors. The difference between the two should be clear, unless of course you also want to talk about magnetite shards etc.

If there is anything incorrect here please feel free to elaborate further on your concept of reduced rewards in raids.

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Raids as and of themselves do not make anet money. Raids are actually a huge drain on resources as they arent monetized. They one and only purpose is to keep people who are bored with casual play, and like hardcore content playing the game, and therefore spending money on the gemstore. These people would otherwise leave and take their money with them. Casual players dont need raids to keep playing. They might want them, but they arent going to leave because they feel raids are inaccessible. Therefore for anet its a TOTAL waste to make easy modes.

That being said, if Anet did decide that the goodwill from the casual playerbase would be enough of a ROI somehow, I would seriously hope they would use the living story team to work on easy mode. I personally would leave the game out of pure boredom if each raid wing took 2 years to come out because the team was trying to balance 2 modes instead of 1.

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@"zombyturtle.5980" said:Raids as and of themselves do not make anet money.

In a way, Raids do make Anet money because they are locked behind expansions, you cannot access the Raids without buying the appropriate expansion first. This means, at the very least, happy Raiders will keep on buying expansions to play the next Raids. This is also a huge reason why each expansion's Raids should have their own unique rewards (Heart of Thorns gets Envoy Armor, Path of Fire Coalescence). There was a way to mix the two, getting Legendary Insights from Path of Fire Raids, but that's gone and now Raids are how they should be, each expansion being separate.

IF you want to look at content that IS an actual drain and is not monetized, that's Fractals, PVP and WVW, you can play all these just fine, even on a free account, with the only "problem" being access to the Elite Specializations (and some higher end agony buffs).

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@Tails.9372 said:Completing the content on a lower difficulty gets you a significantly reduced amount of the exact same time-gated stuff and some items drop less frequently.

That's not how Fractal rewards work. There are lots of rewards that do not drop at all at lower tiers. From the ascended materials, Glob of Coagulated Mists Essence drop at 26+, Shard of Crystallized Mists Essence drop at 51+, to other unique rewards, Ascended Salvage Tools, Infused Ascended Rings and T7 materials start dropping at 26+, Ascended Salvage Kits, Ascended Accessories, Gold Fractal relics (time-gated stuff) and Gold Fractal Weapons start dropping at 51+, Celestial Infusions drop only at 76+ and even further, Unstable Cosmic Essences (another time-gated item) drop only in Shattered Observatory challenge mode.

Giving all the Raid rewards to an easy mode but at a reduced pace isn't following the Fractal reward system.

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@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Tails.9372 said:Completing the content on a lower difficulty gets you a significantly reduced amount of the exact same time-gated stuff and some items drop less frequently.

That's not how Fractal rewards work. There are lots of rewards that do not drop at all at lower tiers. From the ascended materials, Glob of Coagulated Mists Essence drop at 26+, Shard of Crystallized Mists Essence drop at 51+, to other unique rewards, Ascended Salvage Tools, Infused Ascended Rings and T7 materials start dropping at 26+, Ascended Salvage Kits, Ascended Accessories, Gold Fractal relics (time-gated stuff) and Gold Fractal Weapons start dropping at 51+, Celestial Infusions drop only at 76+ and even further, Unstable Cosmic Essences (another time-gated item) drop only in Shattered Observatory challenge mode.

Giving all the Raid rewards to an easy mode but at a reduced pace isn't following the Fractal reward system.

Notice how most of the stuff you mentioned can still be acquired, just indirectly, and celestial infusions and unstable cosmic essences are tied to CM content, which is basically separate subsystem from the rest of the fractals and doesn't have any lower tier versions.

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@Astralporing.1957 said:Notice how most of the stuff you mentioned can still be acquired, just indirectly, and celestial infusions and unstable cosmic essences are tied to CM content, which is basically separate subsystem from the rest of the fractals and doesn't have any lower tier versions.

Because those aren't exclusive Fractal rewards yes with the exception of the Golden Weapons and Golden Weapon Tokens that are impossible to acquire outside running 51+ Fractals. As for the CM content, I believe Raids are harder than CM of Fractals, and this proposed easy mode for everyone would be T1 fractals. Since CM have unique rewards compared to T1 Fractals, it stands to reason that normal Raids (CM-like) will have unique rewards compared to an easy mode of Raids (T1-like).

edit: The lower tier version of Shattered Observatory CM is... Shattered Observatory T1,T2,T3 and T4.. what do you expect them to make an easy mode of Shattered Observatory CM? That doesn't make any kind of sense.

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@"Digit.1823" said:Again this is players proceeding to get equally rewarded for putting in less effort, which is logically unfair.Going by that logic 1 copper is just as rewarding as 100 gold cause "you can just work your way up", this might be how you feel about it but getting more rewards is factually not the same as getting "equally rewarded".

@maddoctor.2738 said:... drop only in Shattered Observatory challenge modeExcept I stated that I'm talking about "non specific participation rewards", Unstable Cosmic Essence is not a general reward for the overarching content.

@maddoctor.2738 said:Golden Weapons ... are impossible to acquire outside running 51+ Fractals.No they aren't, you can use Pristine Fractal Relics to buy Golden Fractal Relics which in turn can be used to buy Gold Fractal weapons.

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@Tails.9372 said:

@"maddoctor.2738" said:... drop only in Shattered Observatory challenge modeExcept I stated that I'm talking about "non specific participation rewards", Unstable Cosmic Essence is not a general reward for the overarching content.

Shattered Observatory challenge mode is the current Raids, T1 Fractals is the easy Raids. There is a reason the CM version has exclusive rewards, similar concept, the "CM" of Raids will get exclusive rewards compared to the easy mode. IT's not such a hard concept to understand.

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@maddoctor.2738 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:... drop only in Shattered Observatory challenge modeExcept I stated that I'm talking about "non specific participation rewards", Unstable Cosmic Essence is not a general reward for the overarching content.

Shattered Observatory challenge mode is the current Raids, T1 Fractals is the easy Raids. There is a reason the CM version has exclusive rewards, similar concept, the "CM" of Raids will get exclusive rewards compared to the easy mode. IT's not such a hard concept to understand.And that's where you're wrong, there's no difference in what you can get by playing T1-4 fractals and CM fractals are not required for any of the general fractal rewards just like how CM raids are not required for any of the general raid rewards. I'm not talking about special sub content specific rewards like titles and stuff. Like you said: it's not such a hard concept to understand.
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@"Tails.9372" said:And that's where you're wrong, there's no difference in what you can get by playing T1-4 fractals and CM fractals are not required for any of the general fractal rewards just like how CM raids are not required for any of the general raid rewards. I'm not talking about special sub content specific rewards like titles and stuff. Like you said: it's not such a hard concept to understand.

CMs of fractals have unique rewards... they are not special "sub content" rewards, they are rewards of Fractals, in their CM version. Why would Legendary Insights work like Fractal Relics and not Unstable Cosmic Essences? Why do you call Legendary Insights "general rewards"? There is no easy version out to give that meaning to the Legendary Insights, they could very easily be the unique reward of Normal mode to differentiate it from easy mode, same way as Unstable Cosmic Essences make the difference between T1-4 and CM in Fractals.

CM versions of Raids don't have extra unique rewards so as not to segregate the playerbase of Raids. If they did have unique rewards then the normal version of Raids would suffer as the more experienced raiders would move ahead, it's a tricky subject. But this easy mode won't have this issue so it can't have only a subset of the rewards of normal mode just fine.

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@Tails.9372 said:

@"Digit.1823" said:Again this is players proceeding to get equally rewarded for putting in less effort, which is logically unfair.Going by that logic 1 copper is just as rewarding as 100 gold cause "you can just work your way up", this might be how you feel about it but getting more rewards is factually not the same as getting "equally rewarded".

I was directly replying to this following statement of yours: "Completing the content on a lower difficulty gets you a significantly reduced amount of the exact same time-gated stuff and some items drop less frequently." Which you can find it my previous reply in this thread. I was specifically talking about the "time-gated stuff" that you mention.

How you go from that to this completely unrelated comparison about copper and gold is something i will truthfully have to admit i cannot grasp. The monetary currency used in GW2 has nothing at all to do with the time-gated items in raids like LI or magnetite shards because copper/silver/gold is not time-gated, you can get that from everything you do. From events to killing monsters to selling the items that you get from playing the game. Heck, you even get gold as well as LI and magnetite shards when killing raids bosses.

Do you even notice that you are ignoring a large part of a well structured reply, ripping out and nit-picking a single tiny sentence out of it, and then replying with something so out of context that simply reading it confused me greatly. It's like you forgot our entire exchange that happened before this post and turned it into a completely new conversation.

If you feel that people are misunderstanding your concept of what "reduced amount of the exact same time-gated stuff" means then for the love of all please elaborate further. Give us details on how you think it should be done then, and then maybe we could actually move the conversation forward.

Things like:

  • Should story/easy mode raids give out the time-gated boss collection items for the legendary armor?
  • How much LI should you get from story/easy mode raids or should we even get LI at all?
  • What do you mean with "items drop less frequently"? Is it a flat 50% less chance or more/less? Maybe something else you're thinking of?
  • Should the magnetite shards be rewarded on boss kills in story/easy mode raids and if so then how much should it give?
  • Should the cap on magnetite shards in story/easy mode raids be the same as normal mode (150) or do you want the cap to be lower like 50?

If you would just explain what you mean then maybe people wouldn't have such a hard time understanding you. Being and remaining vague helps no-one.

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@maddoctor.2738 said:CMs of fractals have unique rewards... they are not special "sub content" rewards, they are rewards of Fractals, in their CM version.Specific to the fractal in question.

@maddoctor.2738 said:Why would Legendary Insights work like Fractal Relics and not Unstable Cosmic Essences? Why do you call Legendary Insights "general rewards"?Because they don't require you to beat the CM version of a specific raid. They're rewards for killing a raid boss regardless of difficulty, nothing more.

@maddoctor.2738 said:CM versions of Raids don't have extra unique rewards so as not to segregate the playerbase of Raids. If they did have unique rewards then the normal version of Raids would suffer as the more experienced raiders would move aheadAnd yet every other content works like that and those who are playing the more difficult content generally want this divide to happen, A-Net failing to make harder content more rewarding is on them and it wouldn't be that much of a problem if more people were playing this kind of content which is something an easy mode could ease them into.

@Digit.1823 said:How you go from that to this completely unrelated comparison about copper and gold is something i will truthfully have to admit i cannot grasp.Because you put things out of context which again is on you.

@Digit.1823 said:The monetary currency used in GW2 has nothing at all to do with the time-gated items in raids like LI or magnetite shards because copper/silver/gold is not time-gatedWhich is irrelevant as your argument was "getting more rewards is not more rewarding".

@Digit.1823 said:Do you even notice that you are ignoring a large part of a well structured reply, ripping out and nit-picking a single tiny sentence out of itI merely cut out all the smoke and fluff and got to the core of your argument.

@Digit.1823 said:and then replying with something so out of context that simply reading it confused me greatlyHow so? The (like you said) "philosophy of fairness" which you were referring back to is the basis of the argument I've responded to and that's all the context there is to it.

@Digit.1823 said:Give us details on how you think it should be done thenI don't have to give specific numbers as it's irrelevant for my argument and I already gave a reference. Again: the rewards should be high enough that acquiring the end result is still realistically possible (as in "not having to wonder if the game is still up by the time it would take you to acquire X") but low enough that everyone who got the hang of it gladly switches to a higher difficulty mode. Anything beyond that is something I either already adessed in a previous post (which you claimed to have read) or something I couldn't care less about (like the exact number of magnetite shards for each difficulty level).

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@Tails.9372 said:Specific to the fractal in question.Irrelevant. The LI are also specific to Heart of Thorns Raids.

Because they don't require you to beat the CM version of a specific raid. They're rewards for killing a raid boss regardless of difficulty, nothing more.You are mistaken. They are rewards for killing a Raid boss in Normal or Above difficulty, nothing more. Easy mode doesn't exist. There is absolutely no reason to have the same rewards in an easy mode and goes against the Fractal system. When they added a new tier in Fractals (CM) it has its own specific/unique rewards. The opposite, when they add a new version of Raids (the easy version) is also true, they need to remove access to some of the rewards to keep them exclusive to the higher difficulty content. Same principle/content as Fractals really.

And yet every other content works like that and those who are playing the more difficult content generally want this divide to happen, A-Net failing to make harder content more rewarding is on them and it wouldn't be that much of a problem if more people were playing this kind of content which is something an easy mode could ease them into.It's irrelevant what happens in other types of content. You can check fractals as the mid tiers are mostly wastelands. I'd argue that T4 would also be a wasteland if every fractal had a CM and running CM counted for the daily recommended.

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@maddoctor.2738 said:Irrelevant.So you're being dismissive because it disproves your argument?

@maddoctor.2738 said:The LI are also specific to Heart of Thorns Raids.And yet they are still overarching rewards for the related content just like Unbound Magic for S3 and Volatile Magic for S4 which (unlike a singe fractal) is not overly specific.

@maddoctor.2738 said:You are mistaken. They are rewards for killing a Raid boss in Normal or Above difficultySo for all difficulty modes.

@maddoctor.2738 said:There is absolutely no reason to have the same rewards in an easy mode and goes against the Fractal system. When they added a new tier in Fractals (CM) it has its own specific/unique rewards. The opposite, when they add a new version of Raids (the easy version) is also true, they need to remove access to some of the rewards to keep them exclusive to the higher difficulty content. Same principle/content as Fractals really.Not quite, CM stands as separate content and like I said I don't have any problems with sub content specific rewards but if you want to make an apt comparison then low tier fractals to "easy mode" raids (or whatever they want to call it) and high tier fractals to "normal mode" raids would be more fitting.

@maddoctor.2738 said:It's irrelevant what happens in other types of content. You can check fractals as the mid tiers are mostly wastelands. I'd argue that T4 would also be a wasteland if every fractal had a CM and running CM counted for the daily recommended.It's very relevant as this seems to be the reason why they don't want to "segregate the playerbase of Raids".

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@"Tails.9372" said:So you're being dismissive because it disproves your argument?No I dismiss it because it has nothing to do with my argument.

So for all difficulty modes.That exist now. For a mode that doesn't even exist though? It's far fetched to call the rewards "general" for a future difficulty mode. Besides, T1 Fractals don't have access to many of the rewards that I outlined earlier. Similar principle.

Not quite, CM stands as separate content and like I said I don't have any problems with sub content specific rewards but if you want to make an apt comparison then low tier fractals to "easy mode" raids (or whatever they want to call it) and high tier fractals to "normal mode" raids would be more fitting.CM isn't separate content, it's the same content. The fitting, and only sensible comparison, is CM T4 Fractals with T1 Fractals, there isn't any other valid comparison here.Shattered Observatory T1 IS an easy version of Shattered Observatory CM, and they give access to different types of rewards. Exact same system can be used in Raids.

It's very relevant as this seems to be the reason why they don't want to "segregate the playerbase of Raids".It's not. They are different types of content with different playerbase. Remember when daily and recommended fractals didn't exist Fractals outside T4 was a total wasteland. Do we really want to add separate for normal Raids and CM Raids?

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As an update - according to this poll (which is probably the most responded too poll ever in these forums), more than 2/3 of the respondents feel raids need work, with 57 percent (as of today) advocating for the inclusion of easier modes.

Again, it isn't likely to happen for a number of reasons (developer reticience, lack of resources, requiring a philosophical change at Anet), but it is interesting to see that, even here on the raiding subforum (where you can assume there are fewer non-raiders visiting), the numbers are that heavily in favor of that kind of change.

People (the same 2-3 that always do) can argue with that all they want, but the numbers are there for anyone who bothers to actually see them.

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@Blaeys.3102 said:As an update - according to this poll (which is probably the most responded too poll ever in these forums), more than 2/3 of the respondents feel raids need work, with 57 percent (as of today) advocating for the inclusion of easier modes.

Again, it isn't likely to happen for a number of reasons (developer reticience, lack of resources, requiring a philosophical change at Anet), but it is interesting to see that, even here on the raiding subforum (where you can assume there are fewer non-raiders visiting), the numbers are that heavily in favor of that kind of change.

People (the same 2-3 that always do) can argue with that all they want, but the numbers are there for anyone who bothers to actually see them.

Which are quite questionable since only a small amount of players are active here.I would be far more interessed in an actual poll from anet, with a notification ingame about that poll so we can for the love of god have solid numbers for anything. 99% of this forums numbers or meassurements are pure speculation. Basing anything on it, being easy mode raids, new meta, the halloween event impression or whatever, is not really a solid argument and i would highly question it if anet would actual base deccisions on such small, unrepresantive polls.

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@Xantaria.8726 said:

@Blaeys.3102 said:As an update - according to this poll (which is probably the most responded too poll ever in these forums), more than 2/3 of the respondents feel raids need work, with 57 percent (as of today) advocating for the inclusion of easier modes.

Again, it isn't likely to happen for a number of reasons (developer reticience, lack of resources, requiring a philosophical change at Anet), but it is interesting to see that, even here on the raiding subforum (where you can assume there are fewer non-raiders visiting), the numbers are that heavily in favor of that kind of change.

People (the same 2-3 that always do) can argue with that all they want, but the numbers are there for anyone who bothers to actually see them.

Which are quite questionable since only a small amount of players are active here.I would be far more interessed in an actual poll from anet, with a notification ingame about that poll so we can for the love of god have solid numbers for anything. 99% of this forums numbers or meassurements are pure speculation. Basing anything on it, being easy mode raids, new meta, the halloween event impression or whatever, is not really a solid argument and i would highly question it if anet would actual base deccisions on such small, unrepresantive polls.

The poll is almost a year old - more than enough time to garner the number of responses it has received. And while it is based on a limited sample size, I think it is probably statistically relevant.

Regardless, it has been here long enough and garnered enough responses to warrant attention, even if action is unrealistic due to resources. It shows that, among those who care enough to express an opinion, there is a significant percentage (more than 3/4) interested in something beyond what we have now with more than half of total respondents interested in a more casual experience in the game mode. Again, the community can continue to discuss related points and details. but the numbers are there and pretty clear.

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@"Blaeys.3102" said:It shows that, among those who care enough to express an opinion, there is a significant percentage (more than 3/4) interested in something beyond what we have now with more than half of total respondents interested in a more casual experience in the game mode. Again, the community can continue to discuss related points and details. but the numbers are there and pretty clear.

Blindly voting on a poll doesn't equal expressing an opinion. It's when you provide arguments over your choice that you are actually expressing an opinion, and there is a discussion. It should come as no surprise that people would vote for making things easier for them. If you ask "should we get a free precursor as our 7th birthday" you'd get mostly "yes" votes, it's in the nature of online polls to heavily lean towards change, especially when it comes to making things easier.

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Not sure what is blind about the poll. The options seem well defined.

Trying to argue it away with strawman fallacies (and yes, that term applies here) wont make the numbers go away.

Of course, continuing the debate and discussion is healthy, but I think it is important that Anet see these numbers and what they represent. If additional resources ever do become available for further raid development, the (albeit slight) majority of those willing to respond on this subforum see value in moving to a more tiered difficulty model that includes a more casual experience alongside one for harder core players.

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@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"Blaeys.3102" said:It shows that, among those who care enough to express an opinion, there is a significant percentage (more than 3/4) interested in something beyond what we have now with more than half of total respondents interested in a more casual experience in the game mode. Again, the community can continue to discuss related points and details. but the numbers are there and pretty clear.

Blindly voting on a poll doesn't equal expressing an opinion. It's when you provide arguments over your choice that you are actually expressing an opinion, and there is a discussion. It should come as no surprise that people would vote for making things easier for them. If you ask "should we get a free precursor as our 7th birthday" you'd get mostly "yes" votes, it's in the nature of online polls to heavily lean towards change, especially when it comes to making things easier.

Opinion: a view or judgment formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge.

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