Superior Sigil of Nullification [Merged] - Page 32 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Superior Sigil of Nullification [Merged]

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  • Psientist.6437Psientist.6437 Member ✭✭✭

    @Dante.1763 said:

    @Psientist.6437 said:
    The quantity of sigils bought by players who intend to use them for the collection far outnumbers the quantity bought by flippers. There is genuine and measurable satisfaction with this collection. If we dismiss those purchases as examples of satisfaction we dismiss how those players find value. Let's not.

    No, it is not. Just because they are buying them does NOT mean they are satisfied with how the sigils are obtained. Unless a poll by anet is done that asks only people who have finished the collection, if they enjoyed how the collection was done including how the sigil was obtained, we will never know if the people who have done the collection are satisfied with how the collection was accomplished, even though they more than likely are satisfied with the end result they may not be satisfied with the means required to get there.

    I am absolutely willing to use a nuanced definition of satisfaction where satisfaction isn't an absolute.

    all primes work and not tearing down has value
    ready purrlayer @ any parsed feels enhance the value of something that is already worth everything
    what other chordal approach but penultimate singing along with other quantum cuddle clocks

  • Hitman.5829Hitman.5829 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 2, 2018

    According to wiki page, there are about 26 items that have sigil of nullification and the vast majority of those items are random drops.
    If the supply is low is because people do not check the value of the items they get. Suppose there are 3000000 players in GW2 and only 1% of the players gets these weapons as drops in 1 week. That is about 30000 sigils in 1 week. There should be enough supply for everyone.

    The problem is not supply, the problem is that people just mystic forge them or replace the sigil without knowing its true value.
    I have been there, I never check the value of an item unless its an item i am not familiar with.

    Charr Warrior Master Race!
    Black Gate Beast Roamer chicken chaser!

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dante.1763 said:

    @Psientist.6437 said:
    The quantity of sigils bought by players who intend to use them for the collection far outnumbers the quantity bought by flippers. There is genuine and measurable satisfaction with this collection. If we dismiss those purchases as examples of satisfaction we dismiss how those players find value. Let's not.

    No, it is not. Just because they are buying them does NOT mean they are satisfied with how the sigils are obtained. Unless a poll by anet is done that asks only people who have finished the collection, if they enjoyed how the collection was done including how the sigil was obtained, we will never know if the people who have done the collection are satisfied with how the collection was accomplished, even though they more than likely are satisfied with the end result they may not be satisfied with the means required to get there.

    Even if that's true, that's an even MORE restrictive definition of satisfaction that if used by Anet, would mean nothing would ever get changed.

    I mean, you must realize the idea where even a fraction of the content being dissatisfying is an absurd reason for Anet to take action here, even if the overall experience is satisfying. It's a completely irrelevant point anyways; Anet can't please all people with all content all the time. Not doing that is a completely ridiculous reason for them to change anything.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Gop.8713Gop.8713 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Hitman.5829 said:
    According to wiki page, there are about 26 items that have sigil of nullification and the vast majority of those items are random drops.
    If the supply is low is because people do not check the value of the items they get. Suppose there are 3000000 players in GW2 and only 1% of the players gets these weapons as drops in 1 week. That is about 30000 sigils in 1 week. There should be enough supply for everyone.

    The problem is not supply, the problem is that people just mystic forge them or replace the sigil without knowing its true value.
    I have been there, I never check the value of an item unless its an item i am not familiar with.

    I understand what you are trying to say, but the trouble is you just kind of randomly guessed at the odds of having the sigil drop. And even using your numbers, that would mean 7,200 of 300,000 players would have had an opportunity to complete the collection thus far, or 2.4% in six weeks . . .

    Ignoring all that and just assuming that your underlying theory is correct, that there are plenty of sigils but players just throw them away without bothering to check their value, that would again just highlight the foolishness of designing a mainline, story-related collection that players should be expected to be able to complete that leaves the tp as the only reliable method of obtaining its requirements . . .

  • Bloodstealer.5978Bloodstealer.5978 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 2, 2018

    @Hitman.5829 said:
    According to wiki page, there are about 26 items that have sigil of nullification and the vast majority of those items are random drops.
    If the supply is low is because people do not check the value of the items they get. Suppose there are 3000000 players in GW2 and only 1% of the players gets these weapons as drops in 1 week. That is about 30000 sigils in 1 week. There should be enough supply for everyone.

    The problem is not supply, the problem is that people just mystic forge them or replace the sigil without knowing its true value.
    I have been there, I never check the value of an item unless its an item i am not familiar with.

    Even if your numbers were gospel 30,000 sigils is like 1200 completions.. so if those same 3,000,000 all take a shot , how many weeks do you think are needed to see all those players satisfied... I don't even want to look at my calculator anymore. Of course what you forgot also was the factoring in of salvage rates outside of BL salvage kits and of course to counter that we could then factor in additional luck via the toilet or lets say 1mill burn through their tomes for their own benefit. Still not great reading when you take supply and time factors here.. which is why I have already stated price is not the crux of this issue at all.. time is the killer of all things and I am of the mind players have already started to push back on this malarkey.
    Question is have ANET managed to get enough out of this to meet their own forecasts, if so then we can expect more of the same going forward because I cannot believe that ANET went about this without strategy and economist forecasting. Everything this game provides has some form of strategy woven into it to generate revenue, which in itself is a good thing if we want to keep playing, but this content is smelling more like bean counter pressure to me rather than a poorly thought through design and lack of oversight.

    @Astralporing .. as much as I have disagreed with much of what @Obtena has put out in this thread, I do agree that by saying all ANET got from this is dissatisfaction, is actually really saying all players are dissatisfied with the content or the sigil supply, which is more than likely nowhere near true ... I would imagine there are a few that are highly satisfied with this content and are quietly laughing at us all here, perhaps some of those are in this thread as we type.
    All we can do now is take a personal view on this content and decide is it really worth it, is worth supporting it or do we simply push back and move on to other things and wait for the next storm in a tea cup to appear on the horizon.
    Personally I had already decided to curtail my RL spending after the KFT issue, this content just reaffirmed that. I have more than enough in game wealth to of just bought up the remaining sigils I needed or burned through enough tomes to offset using in game or RL coin, but doing so would simply just be saying, this is ok for the game when imo it is not.

    Life is what YOU make it... NOT what others tell you!

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Hitman.5829 said:
    According to wiki page, there are about 26 items that have sigil of nullification and the vast majority of those items are random drops.
    If the supply is low is because people do not check the value of the items they get. Suppose there are 3000000 players in GW2 and only 1% of the players gets these weapons as drops in 1 week. That is about 30000 sigils in 1 week. There should be enough supply for everyone.

    The problem is not supply, the problem is that people just mystic forge them or replace the sigil without knowing its true value.
    I have been there, I never check the value of an item unless its an item i am not familiar with.

    Initially i thought that too. Then i checked my own supply of sigils (i salvage my stuff, and keep all of them, i don't vendor any - i have a whole bank tab full of sigils, and another full of runes).

    Do you know how many sigils of nullification i collected since the very beginning of the game?

    7

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    I don't get the question "net gain" ... we aren't playing the stock market here and I'm not speculating on the number of people who were or were not satisfied with the content; it's irrelevant ... except when you make absolute statements to 'prove' the implementation was irrational. That simply doesn't make sense to claim that it's irrational because it generates ONLY dissatisfaction and frustrated because it didn't. You assume you speak for everyone that wants the armor; but you don't. For some people, that amount of gold to get something they want isn't a problem. This content, EVEN for people that want the armor, didn't ONLY generate dissatisfaction and frustration ... but I sure as hell believe you think that's true.

    You're still not getting the point, do you.

    the question isn't whether people were satisfied with the armor collection or not. The question is whether using Sigil of Nullification here generated more satisfaction than using other method (like a flat cost item, for example). Can you tell me who, apart from people that profited in the initial sale, actually liked this use of Sigils here? And why? Because all you're saying is that there might be people that liked the whole collection despite the sigil use. Which is completely not the point.

    In short: where's the Anet's gain in here, over using another method? I still don't see it. And as far as i see, you don't see it either.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • random note in: at the moment of writing this the price of sigil is around 10g per piece meaning that new skins have about a griffon grade cost in gold in sigils alone.

    which is still less than it was just after initial spike so I'd say people "taking their time" may feel rewarded as opposed to those who rushed it paying 25g per piece.... (since someone on prev page claimed they are only punished).

    personally myself I am in no hurry to get anything above boots I have got already so I am neither satisfied nor dissatisfied with whole ordeal. By the time I'll care about rest of skins I expect price of sigils to drop heavilly anyway... or I'll get insanely rich in which case I won't care anyway.

  • Psientist.6437Psientist.6437 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 2, 2018

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Hitman.5829 said:
    According to wiki page, there are about 26 items that have sigil of nullification and the vast majority of those items are random drops.
    If the supply is low is because people do not check the value of the items they get. Suppose there are 3000000 players in GW2 and only 1% of the players gets these weapons as drops in 1 week. That is about 30000 sigils in 1 week. There should be enough supply for everyone.

    The problem is not supply, the problem is that people just mystic forge them or replace the sigil without knowing its true value.
    I have been there, I never check the value of an item unless its an item i am not familiar with.

    Initially i thought that too. Then i checked my own supply of sigils (i salvage my stuff, and keep all of them, i don't vendor any - i have a whole bank tab full of sigils, and another full of runes).

    Do you know how many sigils of nullification i collected since the very beginning of the game?

    7

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    I don't get the question "net gain" ... we aren't playing the stock market here and I'm not speculating on the number of people who were or were not satisfied with the content; it's irrelevant ... except when you make absolute statements to 'prove' the implementation was irrational. That simply doesn't make sense to claim that it's irrational because it generates ONLY dissatisfaction and frustrated because it didn't. You assume you speak for everyone that wants the armor; but you don't. For some people, that amount of gold to get something they want isn't a problem. This content, EVEN for people that want the armor, didn't ONLY generate dissatisfaction and frustration ... but I sure as hell believe you think that's true.

    You're still not getting the point, do you.

    the question isn't whether people were satisfied with the armor collection or not. The question is whether using Sigil of Nullification here generated more satisfaction than using other method (like a flat cost item, for example). Can you tell me who, apart from people that profited in the initial sale, actually liked this use of Sigils here? And why? Because all you're saying is that there might be people that liked the whole collection despite the sigil use. Which is completely not the point.

    In short: where's the Anet's gain in here, over using another method? I still don't see it. And as far as i see, you don't see it either.

    You have been here since release and have seen 6 years of Sigil of Nullification. There must be ways to gain from this strategy. Personally I think there are many reasons why the studio employs this strategy.

    Demand for gold. The studio facilitates RMT and an increase in the demand for currency is an established way to curb inflation.
    A demand for gold that won't overshoot or undershoot the player base's valuation of the item the way traditional NPCs items would
    Rare and expensive items compel economic activity increasing the production rate of all rewards. The Tyrian economy is always headed toward zero activity.
    Rare and expensive items generate increased interest from players, some of which will be negative interest

    Please don't doubt the benefits and please don't erode our ability to objectively understand the studio's market gating strategy by calling that list a conspiracy theory. Perhaps the worst thing we can say about the studio's strategy is that it can be objectively cheesy. Perhaps objectively creepy as well, cash for RNG isn't quite cash for time.

    all primes work and not tearing down has value
    ready purrlayer @ any parsed feels enhance the value of something that is already worth everything
    what other chordal approach but penultimate singing along with other quantum cuddle clocks

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Bloodstealer.5978 said:
    Personally I had already decided to curtail my RL spending after the KFT issue, this content just reaffirmed that. I have more than enough in game wealth to of just bought up the remaining sigils I needed or burned through enough tomes to offset using in game or RL coin, but doing so would simply just be saying, this is ok for the game when imo it is not.

    I’m in the same boat and haven’t bought any gems and refuse to buy gems, until I’m satisfied that this sort of thing won’t happen again. If this a common pattern then I won’t bother with RL spending. I will get the armor if I naturally obtain the sigils, but that is about it.

  • Dante.1763Dante.1763 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Dante.1763 said:

    @Psientist.6437 said:
    The quantity of sigils bought by players who intend to use them for the collection far outnumbers the quantity bought by flippers. There is genuine and measurable satisfaction with this collection. If we dismiss those purchases as examples of satisfaction we dismiss how those players find value. Let's not.

    No, it is not. Just because they are buying them does NOT mean they are satisfied with how the sigils are obtained. Unless a poll by anet is done that asks only people who have finished the collection, if they enjoyed how the collection was done including how the sigil was obtained, we will never know if the people who have done the collection are satisfied with how the collection was accomplished, even though they more than likely are satisfied with the end result they may not be satisfied with the means required to get there.

    Even if that's true, that's an even MORE restrictive definition of satisfaction that if used by Anet, would mean nothing would ever get changed.

    I mean, you must realize the idea where even a fraction of the content being dissatisfying is an absurd reason for Anet to take action here, even if the overall experience is satisfying. It's a completely irrelevant point anyways; Anet can't please all people with all content all the time. Not doing that is a completely ridiculous reason for them to change anything.

    You again, are half correct. They cant please all people all the time. What they can and should do is look at the means of obtainment for items before shoving it into a collection, if it has multiple means(drops, crafting, trading post, mystic forge.) its alright, some people may not be happy because they see it as having to do one of those, but far fewer will be displeased if an item can be obtained with the choice of all of those, unlike this items choices(Using tones of tomes which if you only really do PVE you dont have a ton of those laying around, i have 250 and i havent used any in years, Mystic forge which is an absurd "means" to obtain a sigil, and exotic drops which not everyone is stupid lucky to obtain those.)

    Ember Wandertooth(SB), Lucina Fallenflame(Weaver), Kianda Redpaw(Guardian), Kingslayer, Light in the Dark.
    Why Guild Wars is called Guild Wars

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lord Trejgon.2809 said:
    random note in: at the moment of writing this the price of sigil is around 10g per piece meaning that new skins have about a griffon grade cost in gold in sigils alone.

    which is still less than it was just after initial spike so I'd say people "taking their time" may feel rewarded as opposed to those who rushed it paying 25g per piece.... (since someone on prev page claimed they are only punished).

    Those that rushed it paid 2-3 silver per piece. 15g was for those that were late.

    @Psientist.6437 said:
    You have been here since release and have seen 6 years of Sigil of Nullification.

    Yes. that is one of the reasons why i think they messed up. That would be consistent with the past history.

    Personally I think there are many reasons why the studio employs this strategy.

    Demand for gold. The studio facilitates RMT and an increase in the demand for currency is an established way to curb inflation.

    Not in this case. For that you need either high volume, or cost. In the case of Nullifications, volume is small (the fact that supply is so restricted that only a small number of players per time unit can even complete the collection is one of the primary problems here), and the cost of each individual Sigil is not that high compared to the volume traded. The impact on inflation is minuscule compared to other methods Anet is already (succesfully, and with no associated player negativity) using.

    A demand for gold that won't overshoot or undershoot the player base's valuation of the item the way traditional NPCs items would

    At the same time severely limiting the number of people able to spend that gold? Don't think so. Besides, see above.

    Rare and expensive items compel economic activity increasing the production rate of all rewards.

    There is only one way in which sigils can be produced that is really affected by players. Levelling rewards. This incidentally increases production rate of black lion keys. Somehow i don't think that decreasing gemshop sales of those is something Anet wants.

    Rare and expensive items generate increased interest from players, some of which will be negative interest

    In this case the interest is on Sigils, not Requiem. If anything, they pull the interest away from the armor. And let's be honest, Sigils are not Legendaries, they won't generate positive interest no matter how you spin it.

    So, in short, if they wanted to accomplish the goals you stated, they decided upon a really bad method to do so. Which would be weird, considering they already have a lot of working ones, that are not only way more effective and reliable, but also do not bring as much unwanted attention.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Psientist.6437Psientist.6437 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 2, 2018

    The studio can not 'mess up' for six years and have that 'mess up' be that severe of a 'mess up'. Your entire argument, that the studio is simply incompetent, tries to stand on an impossible proposition.

    The use of sigils of null doesn't have to be a glowing example of the benefits I listed, just a good enough example for the studio to think it is worth adding to the population of all other examples of market gating.

    I will help you hold the position that the use of severe market gating in this collection erodes the Tyrian narrative of heroic sacrifice and achievement, but you can not hold the position that the studio is simply stupid and keeps making lethal mistakes. You may try, but you won't be successful and trying to erodes everyone's ability to make a clear decision.

    all primes work and not tearing down has value
    ready purrlayer @ any parsed feels enhance the value of something that is already worth everything
    what other chordal approach but penultimate singing along with other quantum cuddle clocks

  • Dante.1763Dante.1763 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Psientist.6437 said:
    The studio can not 'mess up' for six years and have that 'mess up' be that severe of a 'mess up'. Your entire argument, that the studio is simply incompetent, tries to stand on an impossible proposition.

    The use of sigils of null doesn't have to be a glowing example of the benefits I listed, just a good enough example for the studio to think it is worth adding to the population of all other examples of market gating.

    I will help you hold the position that the use of severe market gating in this collection erodes the Tyrian narrative of heroic sacrifice and achievement, but you can not hold the position that the studio is simply stupid and keeps making lethal mistakes. You may try, but you won't be successful and trying to erodes everyone's ability to make a clear decision.

    They kinda can though, this studio has made other mistakes in the past, which mistake is the "lethal" one that turns someones point of view is up to each individual person, however its always a good idea to call a company out on their mistakes, and this is honestly one of the most respectful posts ive seen when it comes to doing that.

    Ember Wandertooth(SB), Lucina Fallenflame(Weaver), Kianda Redpaw(Guardian), Kingslayer, Light in the Dark.
    Why Guild Wars is called Guild Wars

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Psientist.6437 said:
    Demand for gold. The studio facilitates RMT and an increase in the demand for currency is an established way to curb inflation.

    This "demand for gold" isn't really high at all, remember they did something similar with the Rune of Scavenging back in 2014 and now it's back at vendor value. The sigil will also drop to vendor value at some point, unless they continue adding demand for it, which I find it unlikely. It's a very short term increase in the demand for gold that won't do anything for the game as a whole, I'm willing to bet the latest mount skins earn Arenanet way more money than the sigils, meaning they don't need these sigils to increase the demand for currency, that's the job of the gem store.

    Only reason to do something like this is to allow some players to profit, those that either had some kind of information about it (it has happened in the past) or simply those that rushed the episode instead of enjoying it fully. It sets a terrible precedent here that anyone who doesn't play the new episode on hour one (not even day one), will be punished, while those that do will become rich in a matter of minutes.

  • Psientist.6437Psientist.6437 Member ✭✭✭

    @Dante.1763 said:

    @Psientist.6437 said:
    The studio can not 'mess up' for six years and have that 'mess up' be that severe of a 'mess up'. Your entire argument, that the studio is simply incompetent, tries to stand on an impossible proposition.

    The use of sigils of null doesn't have to be a glowing example of the benefits I listed, just a good enough example for the studio to think it is worth adding to the population of all other examples of market gating.

    I will help you hold the position that the use of severe market gating in this collection erodes the Tyrian narrative of heroic sacrifice and achievement, but you can not hold the position that the studio is simply stupid and keeps making lethal mistakes. You may try, but you won't be successful and trying to erodes everyone's ability to make a clear decision.

    They kinda can though, this studio has made other mistakes in the past, which mistake is the "lethal" one that turns someones point of view is up to each individual person, however its always a good idea to call a company out on their mistakes, and this is honestly one of the most respectful posts ive seen when it comes to doing that.

    Thank you. To be forthright, I have not purchased PoF and have only been logging on to unlock LW episodes. If we use lethal to mean creates a Tyrian casualty, then yes, the studio can make lethal decisions.

    all primes work and not tearing down has value
    ready purrlayer @ any parsed feels enhance the value of something that is already worth everything
    what other chordal approach but penultimate singing along with other quantum cuddle clocks

  • Blocki.4931Blocki.4931 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Really enjoying my rare armor because nobody else can make it :sunglasses:

    To anybody in WvW who wants this armor: Your glow is always orange, so it is a bit meh in there.

    Very passive aggressively chuckling, because I'm totally not mad on the Internet.

  • Psientist.6437Psientist.6437 Member ✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Psientist.6437 said:
    Demand for gold. The studio facilitates RMT and an increase in the demand for currency is an established way to curb inflation.

    This "demand for gold" isn't really high at all, remember they did something similar with the Rune of Scavenging back in 2014 and now it's back at vendor value. The sigil will also drop to vendor value at some point, unless they continue adding demand for it, which I find it unlikely. It's a very short term increase in the demand for gold that won't do anything for the game as a whole, I'm willing to bet the latest mount skins earn Arenanet way more money than the sigils, meaning they don't need these sigils to increase the demand for currency, that's the job of the gem store.

    Only reason to do something like this is to allow some players to profit, those that either had some kind of information about it (it has happened in the past) or simply those that rushed the episode instead of enjoying it fully. It sets a terrible precedent here that anyone who doesn't play the new episode on hour one (not even day one), will be punished, while those that do will become rich in a matter of minutes.

    Tyria's economy is a propelled by bubbles that slowly dissipate. The fact that the value of an item decreases over time or that individual lifestyles become less relevant explains why there is a steady supply of new expensive items and lifestyles.

    Blaming rushers and throwing the studio in with the rushers has obvious real world analogies.

    all primes work and not tearing down has value
    ready purrlayer @ any parsed feels enhance the value of something that is already worth everything
    what other chordal approach but penultimate singing along with other quantum cuddle clocks

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Psientist.6437 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Psientist.6437 said:
    Demand for gold. The studio facilitates RMT and an increase in the demand for currency is an established way to curb inflation.

    This "demand for gold" isn't really high at all, remember they did something similar with the Rune of Scavenging back in 2014 and now it's back at vendor value. The sigil will also drop to vendor value at some point, unless they continue adding demand for it, which I find it unlikely. It's a very short term increase in the demand for gold that won't do anything for the game as a whole, I'm willing to bet the latest mount skins earn Arenanet way more money than the sigils, meaning they don't need these sigils to increase the demand for currency, that's the job of the gem store.

    Only reason to do something like this is to allow some players to profit, those that either had some kind of information about it (it has happened in the past) or simply those that rushed the episode instead of enjoying it fully. It sets a terrible precedent here that anyone who doesn't play the new episode on hour one (not even day one), will be punished, while those that do will become rich in a matter of minutes.

    Tyria's economy is a propelled by bubbles that slowly dissipate. The fact that the value of an item decreases over time or that individual lifestyles become less relevant explains why there is a steady supply of new expensive items and lifestyles.

    And the gem store skins don't propel the economy fast enough? Why mix this with in-game rewards? And a reward that as I said sets a terrible precedent, making future releases lose much of their value.

  • TwiceDead.1963TwiceDead.1963 Member ✭✭✭

    Wow, this is still going?

    I have nothing to contribute. Carry on.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 2, 2018

    @Dante.1763 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Dante.1763 said:

    @Psientist.6437 said:
    The quantity of sigils bought by players who intend to use them for the collection far outnumbers the quantity bought by flippers. There is genuine and measurable satisfaction with this collection. If we dismiss those purchases as examples of satisfaction we dismiss how those players find value. Let's not.

    No, it is not. Just because they are buying them does NOT mean they are satisfied with how the sigils are obtained. Unless a poll by anet is done that asks only people who have finished the collection, if they enjoyed how the collection was done including how the sigil was obtained, we will never know if the people who have done the collection are satisfied with how the collection was accomplished, even though they more than likely are satisfied with the end result they may not be satisfied with the means required to get there.

    Even if that's true, that's an even MORE restrictive definition of satisfaction that if used by Anet, would mean nothing would ever get changed.

    I mean, you must realize the idea where even a fraction of the content being dissatisfying is an absurd reason for Anet to take action here, even if the overall experience is satisfying. It's a completely irrelevant point anyways; Anet can't please all people with all content all the time. Not doing that is a completely ridiculous reason for them to change anything.

    You again, are half correct. They cant please all people all the time. What they can and should do is look at the means of obtainment for items before shoving it into a collection, if it has multiple means(drops, crafting, trading post, mystic forge.) its alright, some people may not be happy because they see it as having to do one of those, but far fewer will be displeased if an item can be obtained with the choice of all of those, unlike this items choices(Using tones of tomes which if you only really do PVE you dont have a ton of those laying around, i have 250 and i havent used any in years, Mystic forge which is an absurd "means" to obtain a sigil, and exotic drops which not everyone is stupid lucky to obtain those.)

    You are simply fooling yourself if you think that Anet didn't look at the 'obtainment' of these items for this collection. If anything, they PURPOSEFULLY choose that sigil for a reason. I don't see the problem you're illustrating here because the TP is an intended and encouraged approach as the means to obtain the mats for this collection ... or for anything else in this game for that matter. If you don't recognize that, you're just not paying attention to how this game works.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Dante.1763Dante.1763 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 2, 2018

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Dante.1763 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Dante.1763 said:

    @Psientist.6437 said:
    The quantity of sigils bought by players who intend to use them for the collection far outnumbers the quantity bought by flippers. There is genuine and measurable satisfaction with this collection. If we dismiss those purchases as examples of satisfaction we dismiss how those players find value. Let's not.

    No, it is not. Just because they are buying them does NOT mean they are satisfied with how the sigils are obtained. Unless a poll by anet is done that asks only people who have finished the collection, if they enjoyed how the collection was done including how the sigil was obtained, we will never know if the people who have done the collection are satisfied with how the collection was accomplished, even though they more than likely are satisfied with the end result they may not be satisfied with the means required to get there.

    Even if that's true, that's an even MORE restrictive definition of satisfaction that if used by Anet, would mean nothing would ever get changed.

    I mean, you must realize the idea where even a fraction of the content being dissatisfying is an absurd reason for Anet to take action here, even if the overall experience is satisfying. It's a completely irrelevant point anyways; Anet can't please all people with all content all the time. Not doing that is a completely ridiculous reason for them to change anything.

    You again, are half correct. They cant please all people all the time. What they can and should do is look at the means of obtainment for items before shoving it into a collection, if it has multiple means(drops, crafting, trading post, mystic forge.) its alright, some people may not be happy because they see it as having to do one of those, but far fewer will be displeased if an item can be obtained with the choice of all of those, unlike this items choices(Using tones of tomes which if you only really do PVE you dont have a ton of those laying around, i have 250 and i havent used any in years, Mystic forge which is an absurd "means" to obtain a sigil, and exotic drops which not everyone is stupid lucky to obtain those.)

    You are simply fooling yourself if you think that Anet didn't look at the 'obtainment' of these items for this collection. If anything, they PURPOSEFULLY choose that sigil for a reason. I don't see the problem you're illustrating here because the TP is an intended and encouraged approach as the means to obtain the mats for this collection. If you don't recognize that, you're just not paying attention to how this game works.

    No, im not fooling myself, anet has and does over look simple things (like the means of obtainment), its why they are constantly changing items to be rewarded on defenses for events as an example, if they didnt overlook simple things they would never have to do such changes. What i dont recognize is it being the ONLY reliable way to obtain an item. The mystic forge(unless said item has a 100% guaranteed recipe, or is a mystic clover.) , and god kitten level rewards should not, ever be considered a proper alternative to obtaining an item outside of the trading post, period.(my opinion, i hope you can understand that.)

    Ember Wandertooth(SB), Lucina Fallenflame(Weaver), Kianda Redpaw(Guardian), Kingslayer, Light in the Dark.
    Why Guild Wars is called Guild Wars

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 2, 2018

    @Dante.1763 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Dante.1763 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Dante.1763 said:

    @Psientist.6437 said:
    The quantity of sigils bought by players who intend to use them for the collection far outnumbers the quantity bought by flippers. There is genuine and measurable satisfaction with this collection. If we dismiss those purchases as examples of satisfaction we dismiss how those players find value. Let's not.

    No, it is not. Just because they are buying them does NOT mean they are satisfied with how the sigils are obtained. Unless a poll by anet is done that asks only people who have finished the collection, if they enjoyed how the collection was done including how the sigil was obtained, we will never know if the people who have done the collection are satisfied with how the collection was accomplished, even though they more than likely are satisfied with the end result they may not be satisfied with the means required to get there.

    Even if that's true, that's an even MORE restrictive definition of satisfaction that if used by Anet, would mean nothing would ever get changed.

    I mean, you must realize the idea where even a fraction of the content being dissatisfying is an absurd reason for Anet to take action here, even if the overall experience is satisfying. It's a completely irrelevant point anyways; Anet can't please all people with all content all the time. Not doing that is a completely ridiculous reason for them to change anything.

    You again, are half correct. They cant please all people all the time. What they can and should do is look at the means of obtainment for items before shoving it into a collection, if it has multiple means(drops, crafting, trading post, mystic forge.) its alright, some people may not be happy because they see it as having to do one of those, but far fewer will be displeased if an item can be obtained with the choice of all of those, unlike this items choices(Using tones of tomes which if you only really do PVE you dont have a ton of those laying around, i have 250 and i havent used any in years, Mystic forge which is an absurd "means" to obtain a sigil, and exotic drops which not everyone is stupid lucky to obtain those.)

    You are simply fooling yourself if you think that Anet didn't look at the 'obtainment' of these items for this collection. If anything, they PURPOSEFULLY choose that sigil for a reason. I don't see the problem you're illustrating here because the TP is an intended and encouraged approach as the means to obtain the mats for this collection. If you don't recognize that, you're just not paying attention to how this game works.

    No, im not fooling myself, anet has and does over look simple things (like the means of obtainment), its why they are constantly changing items to be rewarded on defenses for events as an example, if they didnt overlook simple things they would never have to do such changes. What i dont recognize is it being the ONLY reliable way to obtain an item. The mystic forge(unless said item has a 100% guaranteed recipe, or is a mystic clover.) , and god kitten level rewards should not, ever be considered a proper alternative to obtaining an item outside of the trading post, period.(my opinion, i hope you can understand that.)

    Just because there are instances where Anet has made mistakes does not mean this is one of them. Maybe you convinced yourself this is one such instance. From where I sit, it's implement in a way that is exactly inline with how the game was designed and intended to work because of the history of the game and how it has worked for that 6 years.

    I get you have opinion about what should be a reasonable alternative to obtaining an item outside the TP ... that doesn't mean Anet made a mistake; it's just more evidence that Anet encourages the use of the TP to get mats you need for crafting. Put it this way ... if Anet wants people to use the TP ... why would they give a rat's behind about how this item becomes into the game? I know I wouldn't. In fact, I wouldn't care in the least what avenues this item comes into being ... my biggest concern is that it has a sufficient rate of introduction. That's the case we have here.

    Again, this is an example of what I said before; people are ignoring the reality of how the game functions to argue there is some wrong here. If you recognize that the things that are happening here are inline with how the game is intended to function, you don't have a plausible argument for why this is 'wrong'. People aren't asking themselves the right questions; they just jump to the conclusion this is wrong.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Psientist.6437Psientist.6437 Member ✭✭✭

    I don't want to debate anymore.

    To the studio,

    Following revealed preference is ethical. A market place does increase the power of every Tyrian. You want us to use the market but your overall story of heroism selects for players who do not want to participate in a market, resent the presence of the market and market actors, and the only market narrative you offer is Rytlock Brimstone and the folks at Southsun Cove (can't remember the name, but they were not heroic). The only 'job' besides general farming is standing at the MF. No one respects the MF.

    Monetizing your economy was brave because it is demands your responsibility and complicity. I wish I had better ideas.

    all primes work and not tearing down has value
    ready purrlayer @ any parsed feels enhance the value of something that is already worth everything
    what other chordal approach but penultimate singing along with other quantum cuddle clocks

  • Dante.1763Dante.1763 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Dante.1763 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Dante.1763 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Dante.1763 said:

    @Psientist.6437 said:
    The quantity of sigils bought by players who intend to use them for the collection far outnumbers the quantity bought by flippers. There is genuine and measurable satisfaction with this collection. If we dismiss those purchases as examples of satisfaction we dismiss how those players find value. Let's not.

    No, it is not. Just because they are buying them does NOT mean they are satisfied with how the sigils are obtained. Unless a poll by anet is done that asks only people who have finished the collection, if they enjoyed how the collection was done including how the sigil was obtained, we will never know if the people who have done the collection are satisfied with how the collection was accomplished, even though they more than likely are satisfied with the end result they may not be satisfied with the means required to get there.

    Even if that's true, that's an even MORE restrictive definition of satisfaction that if used by Anet, would mean nothing would ever get changed.

    I mean, you must realize the idea where even a fraction of the content being dissatisfying is an absurd reason for Anet to take action here, even if the overall experience is satisfying. It's a completely irrelevant point anyways; Anet can't please all people with all content all the time. Not doing that is a completely ridiculous reason for them to change anything.

    You again, are half correct. They cant please all people all the time. What they can and should do is look at the means of obtainment for items before shoving it into a collection, if it has multiple means(drops, crafting, trading post, mystic forge.) its alright, some people may not be happy because they see it as having to do one of those, but far fewer will be displeased if an item can be obtained with the choice of all of those, unlike this items choices(Using tones of tomes which if you only really do PVE you dont have a ton of those laying around, i have 250 and i havent used any in years, Mystic forge which is an absurd "means" to obtain a sigil, and exotic drops which not everyone is stupid lucky to obtain those.)

    You are simply fooling yourself if you think that Anet didn't look at the 'obtainment' of these items for this collection. If anything, they PURPOSEFULLY choose that sigil for a reason. I don't see the problem you're illustrating here because the TP is an intended and encouraged approach as the means to obtain the mats for this collection. If you don't recognize that, you're just not paying attention to how this game works.

    No, im not fooling myself, anet has and does over look simple things (like the means of obtainment), its why they are constantly changing items to be rewarded on defenses for events as an example, if they didnt overlook simple things they would never have to do such changes. What i dont recognize is it being the ONLY reliable way to obtain an item. The mystic forge(unless said item has a 100% guaranteed recipe, or is a mystic clover.) , and god kitten level rewards should not, ever be considered a proper alternative to obtaining an item outside of the trading post, period.(my opinion, i hope you can understand that.)

    Just because there are instances where Anet has made mistakes does not mean this is one of them. Maybe you convinced yourself this is one such instance. From where I sit, it's implement in a way that is exactly inline with how the game was designed and intended to work because of the history of the game. I get you have opinion about what should be a reasonable alternative to obtaining an item outside the TP ... that doesn't mean Anet made a mistake; it's just more evidence that Anet encourages the use of the TP to get mats you need for crafting.

    I didnt have to convince myself of anything, this is going off of things they have changed in the past(see precursors finally getting a means of 100% obtainment without the trading post.). This is not crafting, if it was crafting i more than likely(99%) wouldnt have any issues because there would be a recipe, no matter how costly that i could work on at my own pace. You will never see me complain about the cost of crafting a kitten thing in this game because i can work on it, when i want, i can spend my gold if i want. This is a collection that allowed a small group of people(at first, not arguing over the slow trickle of these anymore) to profit massively because they had the ability to be playing at the time of release, rushed the content and purchased all the sigils off the market as soon as they realized what was needed.

    It sets a terrible precedent in my mind which now there i wont play through the content like i normally do at my own pace if the next story has a collection like this for fear(or distrust if you wish, im not sure which fits better) of the same thing happening, its completely un enjoyable to me knowing that there is a chance of this happening again, and this sigil did ruin the LS for me because i was looking forward to that armor set.

    Ember Wandertooth(SB), Lucina Fallenflame(Weaver), Kianda Redpaw(Guardian), Kingslayer, Light in the Dark.
    Why Guild Wars is called Guild Wars

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 2, 2018

    That just doesn't make sense. You could work on this collection at your leisure as well. The mechanics of obtaining this armor are so similar to crafting, the result would have been the same. You literally dump items into a thing to get some armor ... crafting works the same way. You dump items into a 'thing' called a recipe and you get armor. The only difference is that the recipe here is contained in an object. You're just grasping at straws with pedantic arguments here.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Dante.1763Dante.1763 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 2, 2018

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    That just doesn't make sense. You could work on this collection at your leisure as well. The mechanics of obtaining this armor are so similar to crafting, the result would have been the same. You literally dump items into a thing to get some armor ... crafting works the same way. You dump items into a 'thing' called a recipe and you get armor. The only difference is that the recipe here is contained in an object. You're just grasping at straws with pedantic arguments here.

    It does make sense. Crafting requires materials you can farm in the open world. This sigil is obtained through one guaranteed but completely impossible for me to do way(leveling because i lack tomes), the mystic forge(not guranteed and more costly than the sigils themselves.), or the trading post which is just people doing either of the two former, If this sigil had a recipe, no matter how expensive that i could craft through stuff that i could farm by myself, i wouldnt have any issues. It does not, and thus the issue, if you dont not understand that difference, thisll be my last post on the subject.

    Ember Wandertooth(SB), Lucina Fallenflame(Weaver), Kianda Redpaw(Guardian), Kingslayer, Light in the Dark.
    Why Guild Wars is called Guild Wars

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 2, 2018

    @Dante.1763 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    That just doesn't make sense. You could work on this collection at your leisure as well. The mechanics of obtaining this armor are so similar to crafting, the result would have been the same. You literally dump items into a thing to get some armor ... crafting works the same way. You dump items into a 'thing' called a recipe and you get armor. The only difference is that the recipe here is contained in an object. You're just grasping at straws with pedantic arguments here.

    It does make sense. Crafting requires materials you can farm in the open world. This sigil is obtained through one guaranteed but completely impossible for me to do way(leveling because i lack tomes), the mystic forge(not guranteed and more costly than the sigils themselves.), or the trading post which is just people doing either of the two former, If this sigil had a recipe, no matter how expensive that i could craft through stuff that i could farm by myself, i wouldnt have any issues. It does not, and thus the issue, if you dont not understand that difference, thisll be my last post on the subject.

    It makes all sense .... even if this collection was crafted, the result would have been the same as we have now. Crafting doesn't care how the materials are introduced in the game. Neither does this collection. The difference is insignificant. The irony is that you CAN farm this yourself. I've already farmed a number of sigils I wanted. What's your excuse other than not willing to invest the time to do it or spend the gold to get them? Maybe you think Anet should have an event where it rains sigils from the sky on you? You would still complain because you didn't want to go to the map where it was raining?

    The complaint that you can't craft this at your leisure doesn't makes sense even from the most fundamental level; you don't get to dictate what you are willing to do to get things you want in this game or almost any other MMO. Anet decides that. I mean, how reasonable would it be for me to complain I can't get a leg Armor set by simply logging into the game? That would be ridiculous, just like it's ridiculous to complain you can't get this through traditional approach to crafting something.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Psientist.6437Psientist.6437 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 3, 2018

    To find the trade floor we must steep it in narrative.

    I used a convincingly destructive analog with recipes as bubbles. I was lazy and am complicit. A more convincing analog is recipes as knots tying a string together. For this analog we require a Tyria where we may play for events called asset creations. The string is spun from strands. Strands as are players, the length is measured in assets as well as our potential and willingness to play more. Recipes, as knots, organize the structure of the individual strand into an event called reward superstructure. If we allow for a virtual currency field where players may use units of currency to create virtual representations of asset creation they can trade assets across distance with a relative cost. The trade floor allows strands to organize into a string bound by handshaking. Being a string increases the likelihood the strand can create more reward superstructures while maintaining ever greater liberty in finding genuine lick the kitten play.

    Some strands will point out how gross playing makes everyone's hands. If we are compelling handshaking and start with time as currency, then the distinction between time as work and time as RNG is obvious to anyone playing.

    In Tyria we can experience the benefits of a trade floor while incurring the bear minimum real world risks of a trade floor. We do need to shake hands.

    Can we change this immortal thread? Perhaps with descriptions of what we don't find gross.

    I gladly shake hands for work. I gladly shake hands for ability. Shaking hands for RNG I avoid and control my desire to project my opinion of RNG. I understand the value of using obvious RNG in a constrained way. RNG can be cleaned.

    all primes work and not tearing down has value
    ready purrlayer @ any parsed feels enhance the value of something that is already worth everything
    what other chordal approach but penultimate singing along with other quantum cuddle clocks

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    That just doesn't make sense. You could work on this collection at your leisure as well. The mechanics of obtaining this armor are so similar to crafting, the result would have been the same. You literally dump items into a thing to get some armor ... crafting works the same way. You dump items into a 'thing' called a recipe and you get armor. The only difference is that the recipe here is contained in an object. You're just grasping at straws with pedantic arguments here.

    It actually does make sense. Dante is now going to be paranoid in the future with Anet releasing content, that he is quickly going to rush through the episode, much like what had occurred with the following episode.

    It’s a legitimate fear to have and I’m honestly in the same boat because, I have a feeling that something like will repeat itself, where I’m gonna rush and skip things just to make sure, I’m not screwed over after the first couple hours the episode is released.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 3, 2018

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    It makes all sense .... even if this collection was crafted, the result would have been the same as we have now. Crafting doesn't care how the materials are introduced in the game. Neither does this collection. The difference is insignificant. The irony is that you CAN farm this yourself. I've already farmed a number of sigils I wanted. What's your excuse other than not willing to invest the time to do it or spend the gold to get them? Maybe you think Anet should have an event where it rains sigils from the sky on you? You would still complain because you didn't want to go to the map where it was raining?

    Can I farm them myself? Yes I can but that's besides the point here, it's not that the sigils are expensive that is the problem.
    If the Sigil of Nullification was a NEW item added with THIS episode, available from the NEW map (in any way) then I'm 100% positive nobody would complain about it, it's part of the content after all. But what they did here was take an OLD item, that was dirt cheap, and make it a requirement to getting a NEW reward. This is what all the complaints are or at least in my opinion should be about.
    This situation promotes rushing through content, it ruins any feeling of exploration, awe and excitement about any future episodes they release. Just rush through, skip all the cutscenes/dialogue, go as quickly as possible to see if Arenanet does the same in their future episodes. It's a terrible precedent in every way imaginable. I understand those that play the market and got rich with this situation love it and will defend it, but this has nothing to do about damage to the market, it's damage to the reputation of the game and how players will see any future episodes. Is this damage worth it in order to temporarily make some lucky rushers (or those with inside information) rich?

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 3, 2018

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    Just because there are instances where Anet has made mistakes does not mean this is one of them.

    True, but it completely invalidates your argument that it couldn't have been a mistake because it would be too easy to predict.
    They have made the very same mistake Dante mentioned with assault/defence events once, and then they kept repeating it over and over again, having to fix every single instance later on (sometimes after a very long delay).

    I get you have opinion about what should be a reasonable alternative to obtaining an item outside the TP ... that doesn't mean Anet made a mistake; it's just more evidence that Anet encourages the use of the TP to get mats you need for crafting. Put it this way ... if Anet wants people to use the TP

    Yes, but to do that the item needs to be able to be introduced to TP in some way. They want people to work to create that supply. An incidental supply that is heavily capped doesn't really work for that reason.

    ... why would they give a rat's behind about how this item becomes into the game?

    For the reason specified above.

    I know I wouldn't. In fact, I wouldn't care in the least what avenues this item comes into being ... my biggest concern is that it has a sufficient rate of introduction. That's the case we have here.

    supply for 80 players per month is hardly a "sufficient rate of introduction". The amount of gold anet gets with taxing that is negligible. It doesn't stimulate the economy. It might as well be nonexistent for all the impact it would have on the game (apart from bad publicity, of course).

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    You are simply fooling yourself if you think that Anet didn't look at the 'obtainment' of these items for this collection. If anything, they PURPOSEFULLY choose that sigil for a reason.

    Again, what reason? I have looked over your posts so far, and it's clear to me that you also can't think of one. You simply assume there is one, and your assumption is based on your belief they couldn't have been mistaken - which, as Dante pointed out to you, simply isn't true. They could be mistaken, they have been mistaken in the past, and they will certainly be mistaken on many things in the future. Even as obvious in retrospection as this one.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 3, 2018

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    That just doesn't make sense. You could work on this collection at your leisure as well. The mechanics of obtaining this armor are so similar to crafting, the result would have been the same. You literally dump items into a thing to get some armor ... crafting works the same way. You dump items into a 'thing' called a recipe and you get armor. The only difference is that the recipe here is contained in an object. You're just grasping at straws with pedantic arguments here.

    It actually does make sense. Dante is now going to be paranoid in the future with Anet releasing content, that he is quickly going to rush through the episode, much like what had occurred with the following episode.

    It’s a legitimate fear to have and I’m honestly in the same boat because, I have a feeling that something like will repeat itself, where I’m gonna rush and skip things just to make sure, I’m not screwed over after the first couple hours the episode is released.

    Again, you and him are making this about price because nothing prevents someone from doing the content at their leisure ... except an unwillingness to pay the fair market value for the mats.

    I think we already established that complaining about price of a mat in this market is a fool's errand. The market determines the prices points for good reason; that's not new, that's not changing. If you feel that the mechanics of the market ruin your game experience, you can choose to farm your own mats and everyone has access to get this sigil from the methods available. If you decide to disregard the intended, encouraged, primary approach to get mats and directly farm them yourself, it's hardly reasonable to complain it's more difficult to get the mats outside the intended, encouraged primary approach; it's designed to be that way. /shrug

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • @Blocki.4931 said:
    To anybody in WvW who wants this armor: Your glow is always orange, so it is a bit meh in there.

    excuuuuuuuuse me the glow on my boots is blue just as I painted it, even on desert borderland (the map where lightining screws alot with dying of the boots making them all gold in some angles instead of blueish-black with gold hints) :P

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    Again, you and him are making this about price because nothing prevents someone from doing the content at their leisure ... except an unwillingness to pay the fair market value for the mats.

    I think we already established that complaining about price of a mat in this market is a fool's errand. The market determines the prices points for good reason; that's not new, that's not changing. If you feel that the mechanics of the market ruin your game experience, you can choose to farm your own mats and everyone has access to get this sigil from the methods available. If you decide to disregard the intended, encouraged, primary approach to get mats and directly farm them yourself, it's hardly reasonable to complain it's more difficult to get the mats outside the intended, encouraged primary approach; it's designed to be that way. /shrug

    And you are missing the point, again. They, me, and I'm sure lots of other players are not making this about the price at all. This isn't about an item being expensive or how prices on the market are determined. This is about the damage this situation does to how players will treat the next episode (and all the others after it) You are thinking only from the perspective of the market and how prices are, but this is a tiny part of the complaints about the Sigil of Nullification fiasco.

    Is the sigil expensive? WHO CARES. Is it rare or behind RNG? Again, WHO CARES. It's the fact that it's an old item, that used to have a very low value, and suddenly those that rushed the episode were allowed to manipulate the market and profit from it. This creates a huge incentive for the next episode to rush through it, in order to avoid a repeat of this situation and not being ripped off by the actions of the rushers. THIS is the problem with this situation, not the price or how the market/crafting works in the game. If they added a new sigil, available only as a drop from this episode, with similar (or even lower) chances, regardless of how more expensive it would be than the sigil of nullification, it would be fine.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 3, 2018

    That's not a unique problem to this content though ... Every time Anet changes the game, there are people that don't like that change. Anet can't please all player all the time. That's the nature of the beast. This is just another instance of a change in the game where people aren't happy. It's par for the course.

    The big problem here is that the thread makes this sound like some unique instance where Anet changed the game and now some player aren't happy. That's not unique. That happens ALL THE TIME. The only reason anyone would say this instance sets a precedent for rushing through content is because they don't like paying the price for the mat on the TP; if price wasn't the issue, there would be NOTHING stopping anyone from doing this content at their own pace. If the sigil was still 15s, this thread wouldn't exist ... EVEN if you were one of those people who only wanted to farm all their mats. The complaint is ALL about the price and anyone saying otherwise is just not aware of how the price is linked to their decisions to spend time in the game ... or being dishonest about it.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    That's not a unique problem to this content though ... Every time Anet changes the game, there are people that don't like that change. Anet can't please all player all the time. That's the nature of the beast. This is just another instance of a change in the game where people aren't happy. It's par for the course.

    The big problem here is that the thread makes this sound like some unique instance where Anet changed the game and now some player aren't happy. That's not unique. That happens ALL THE TIME.

    Again, it's not about simply changing the game, it's about giving those that rush an episode an advantage over those that don't. This hasn't happened before, at all, so this type of change is indeed unique. As for your argument about finishing the collection when you want, remember that progress requires events (including the new Shatterer) in the new zone. Judging by how other living world maps aren't very popular, we can all understand that "finishing this when you want" is a joke. This is a time limited event, they added a time limit to the collection and allowed those rushing to profit heavily from it. This doesn't happen all the time, in fact something even remotely similar to this hasn't happened before in the life of the game. Runes of Scavenging increased in price when they added them as a collection material back in 2014, but the events surrounding them weren't time limited. There was no rush. This IS a unique instance were Anet changed the game in a way that they've never changed it before.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 3, 2018

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    That's not a unique problem to this content though ... Every time Anet changes the game, there are people that don't like that change. Anet can't please all player all the time. That's the nature of the beast. This is just another instance of a change in the game where people aren't happy. It's par for the course.

    The big problem here is that the thread makes this sound like some unique instance where Anet changed the game and now some player aren't happy. That's not unique. That happens ALL THE TIME.

    Again, it's not about simply changing the game, it's about giving those that rush an episode an advantage over those that don't.

    That's not a problem ... that's how the market is intended to work so that there is a equilibrium in the supply of mats; that's not going to change and it's not new. In fact, it's necessary for the market to function.

    You don't like people having an advantage, but you play an MMO where people who have more time have the natural advantage in the game. That's not something that can or should be avoided. You're thinking boils down to sour grapes; you have this ideal that everything is equal; it's not. That's not unique to GW2 either. That's any game I've ever played.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    That's not a problem ... that's how the market is intended to work so that there is a equilibrium in the supply of mats; that's not going to change and it's not new. In fact, it's necessary for the market to function.

    You don't like people having an advantage, but you play an MMO where people who have more time have the natural advantage in the game. That's not something that can or should be avoided. You're thinking boils down to sour grapes; you have this ideal that everything is equal; it's not. That's not unique to GW2 either. That's any game I've ever played.

    As I said multiple times, this has nothing to do with the market, they could've added a NEW item in the NEW zone, make it as rare as they wanted (to make it expensive) and I wouldn't care about it at all.
    Further, players with more time having an advantage is also irrelevant to this discussion, giving incentive for players that play more (they get more loot) is different to giving incentive to rushing through episodes because rushing offers extra rewards. This has never happened in the game before, the time you finish any kind of episode plays little role (if any) to your rewards. A player finishing Heart of Thorns today will get the same type of reward (random loot bags) as a player that finished Heart of Thorns on release.

    Why give incentive for rushing through an episode? What's the point of it? And don't say to trigger the market, because gem store items are doing a very good job at that, compared to the latest mount skins, the sigil of nullification impact on gold was nothing.

  • Bloodstealer.5978Bloodstealer.5978 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    That just doesn't make sense. You could work on this collection at your leisure as well. The mechanics of obtaining this armor are so similar to crafting, the result would have been the same. You literally dump items into a thing to get some armor ... crafting works the same way. You dump items into a 'thing' called a recipe and you get armor. The only difference is that the recipe here is contained in an object. You're just grasping at straws with pedantic arguments here.

    I don't recall crafting anything in game that required me to sit back and hope I get the result I intended.. this is not crafting this is largely reliant on yourself or others to dance round the lucky loser pole many, many times before the RNG Gods take pity.

    Life is what YOU make it... NOT what others tell you!

  • Psientist.6437Psientist.6437 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 3, 2018

    We may spend as much energy as we like trying to calculate what would be a studio mistake, and only ever end up with "what the studio sharn't" measured to an extreme decimal place.

    From my perspective, standing upon that pile of sharn't, this collection deserved better than the same cookie cutter market gating tactics the studio uses for the sweet calories of fashion rewards. The dough of this collection contained too much NPC flesh to be anything but savory.

    If there is a studio mistake or misjudgement, it is trying to deliver savory meals with only a confectioners tools.

    all primes work and not tearing down has value
    ready purrlayer @ any parsed feels enhance the value of something that is already worth everything
    what other chordal approach but penultimate singing along with other quantum cuddle clocks

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 3, 2018

    @Bloodstealer.5978 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    That just doesn't make sense. You could work on this collection at your leisure as well. The mechanics of obtaining this armor are so similar to crafting, the result would have been the same. You literally dump items into a thing to get some armor ... crafting works the same way. You dump items into a 'thing' called a recipe and you get armor. The only difference is that the recipe here is contained in an object. You're just grasping at straws with pedantic arguments here.

    I don't recall crafting anything in game that required me to sit back and hope I get the result I intended.. this is not crafting this is largely reliant on yourself or others to dance round the lucky loser pole many, many times before the RNG Gods take pity.

    You don't have to do this here either. You feed the necessary mats, you get the skin. No RNG involved. The sigil is available 100% of the time, either from obtaining it yourself while leveling or buying off the TP. You only suffer RNG if you CHOOSE to obtain the sigil that way.

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    That's not a problem ... that's how the market is intended to work so that there is a equilibrium in the supply of mats; that's not going to change and it's not new. In fact, it's necessary for the market to function.

    You don't like people having an advantage, but you play an MMO where people who have more time have the natural advantage in the game. That's not something that can or should be avoided. You're thinking boils down to sour grapes; you have this ideal that everything is equal; it's not. That's not unique to GW2 either. That's any game I've ever played.

    As I said multiple times, this has nothing to do with the market, they could've added a NEW item in the NEW zone, make it as rare as they wanted (to make it expensive) and I wouldn't care about it at all.

    Except that's not being truthful because if the sigil didn't change price, people wouldn't be complaining about this content. It comes down to how you spend time in game ... and the people complaining aren't willing to spend the time ingame to do any of the paths available to them to get the sigil. There isn't an incentive to rush through the content here ... Anyone could obtain the sigils independent of their timing to do the content. People are just angry because they feel they missed out, which is unreasonable because it's the nature of MMOs and no different here in a player-driven market. If you play this game, it's something you accept because it's intended to function this way.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Its essentially the perfect storm. Stupid low price sigil, that isn’t overly desired. Sigil is not easy to acquire. Then just buy them all up.

    They would have been better off having mystic coins as part of the collection or some T6 material instead. Would the price jump up? Sure, a bit, nothing ludicrous, though, much like the other materials in this collection. No one would have bought the entire stock of coins.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    Except that's not being truthful because if the sigil didn't change price, people wouldn't be complaining about this content. It comes down to how you spend time in game ... and the people complaining aren't willing to spend the time ingame to do any of the paths available to them to get the sigil. There isn't an incentive to rush through the content here ... Anyone could obtain the sigils independent of their timing to do the content. People are just angry because they feel they missed out, which is unreasonable because it's the nature of MMOs and no different here in a player-driven market.

    If the sigil didn't change price then it wouldn't be used in the collection, something else would be used instead. It's not about how I spend my time in the game, it's how others rushing through content on the first hour getting extra rewards for doing that. For the first time in the game's history (this is all new and unique) they are telling their players to rush through content instead of enjoying it, because they'll be rewarded by doing exactly that. Meanwhile you are saying that's it's not an incentive to rush through content? When they REWARD players for rushing through content? If that's not a clear incentive to rush then what is it?

    If you play this game, it's something you accept because it's intended to function this way.

    This is nonsense. This is the first episode that they did this. This is the first time they rewarded rushers like this, this is the first time they added extra rewards for those that started the collection early and benefited by buying the sigils and then selling them at a higher price. I don't accept this situation and I don't accept that MMORPGs intend to function this way when this is the first time in 6 years that Anet pulled off something like this.

    There was a post on the raid/fractal/dungeon sub-forum about adding unique rewards to those finishing the next Raid Wings first... I guess some Arenanet developer read that and decided to test the waters by doing the exact same thing in this episode, only it affects everyone.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 3, 2018

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    Except that's not being truthful because if the sigil didn't change price, people wouldn't be complaining about this content. It comes down to how you spend time in game ... and the people complaining aren't willing to spend the time ingame to do any of the paths available to them to get the sigil. There isn't an incentive to rush through the content here ... Anyone could obtain the sigils independent of their timing to do the content. People are just angry because they feel they missed out, which is unreasonable because it's the nature of MMOs and no different here in a player-driven market.

    If the sigil didn't change price then it wouldn't be used in the collection, something else would be used instead.

    No, no ... let's think here ... if the sigil didn't change price on the TP when the content was released and maintained it's value the same throughout the remainder of the game, what would the complain be here?

    You're saying it's not about price ... so what IS the complaint here if the OP of this thread and everyone else didn't have a problem with the price of the sigil.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    No, no ... let's think here ... if the sigil didn't change price on the TP when the content was released, what would the complain be here?

    Nice try but that's not relevant. I asked a simple question, why promote and give incentives to rush content? That's the main issue here.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 3, 2018

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    No, no ... let's think here ... if the sigil didn't change price on the TP when the content was released, what would the complain be here?

    Nice try but that's not relevant. I asked a simple question, why promote and give incentives to rush content? That's the main issue here.

    I don't think that's relevant either ... I don't see what the promotion or incentive is to rush this content ... just like you don't see how all this is related to sigil price on the TP.

    I mean, we can both be obtuse here. There is a link between the sigil price and how people interact with the content. You just don't want to admit it because the only reason people would rush the content is due to the price of the sigil; they don't want to be left out of the opportunity to buy them cheap before the reach fair market value. So yes, this is about price. If the price of the sigil was maintained from the time of this release, there wouldn't be any complaint. It's about price and that relates to how people want to spend time ingame. It's all related. Don't try to disassociate those things; they are very clearly related and trying to do so is very dishonest approach to discussion here. It's all about how people want to spend their time.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    My concern is this turning into a common trait every new episode release, which in turn makes it so I don’t feel like playing the episode and thus slowly finding some other game to play, I guess. Which is sad, since I’ve been playing this franchise since 2005 and this is the first time the game has made me feel this way.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    No, no ... let's think here ... if the sigil didn't change price on the TP when the content was released, what would the complain be here?

    Nice try but that's not relevant. I asked a simple question, why promote and give incentives to rush content? That's the main issue here.

    I don't think that's relevant either ... I don't see what the promotion or incentive is to rush this content ... just like you don't see how all this is related to sigil price on the TP.

    It's simple. Those that rushed and finished the content quickly found out about the sigil, then bought 22.7k sigils (we have the data) at less than 3 silver each. How many players did this is unclear because the gw2bltc or gw2spidy websites update 2 times per day and the episode was released in-between the updates (on purpose probably). Even so, I doubt it was too many, because it was "only" 681 gold to buy all of them, a single player could've bought every single sigil once they rushed and found out what was happening. but let's say it wasn't a single person but a group of early rushers. After they bought all the available supply, they relisted them for 10g each. That's a profit of about 9gold 97 silver PER sigil that they bought, or a profit of about 226319 gold split between those early rushers that bought all the initial supply and then resold those sigils.

    What does this tell the players of this game? Next episode, and the ones after it, rush the content as fast as possible, skip dialogue and cutscenes, in order to see what kind of new collection exists that requires old cheap items, so you can buy them all at their current low market value, then relist them and make an absolutely huge profit. I guess for you, 227k gold in profit isn't enough of an incentive, and now that this non-sense is known, a player could easily do it next time alone (681 gold is nothing), provided they are the FASTEST one. Or the group of fastest ones. And you don't see this as incentive to rush the content? How much extra gold do they need to add as a reward to the first player that finishes an episode to make it enough incentive for you.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 3, 2018

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    No, no ... let's think here ... if the sigil didn't change price on the TP when the content was released, what would the complain be here?

    Nice try but that's not relevant. I asked a simple question, why promote and give incentives to rush content? That's the main issue here.

    I don't think that's relevant either ... I don't see what the promotion or incentive is to rush this content ... just like you don't see how all this is related to sigil price on the TP.

    It's simple. Those that rushed and finished the content quickly found out about the sigil, then bought 22.7k sigils (we have the data) at less than 3 silver each. How many players did this is unclear because the gw2bltc or gw2spidy websites update 2 times per day and the episode was released in-between the updates (on purpose probably). Even so, I doubt it was too many, because it was "only" 681 gold to buy all of them, a single player could've bought every single sigil once they rushed and found out what was happening. but let's say it wasn't a single person but a group of early rushers. After they bought all the available supply, they relisted them for 10g each. That's a profit of about 9gold 97 silver PER sigil that they bought, or a profit of about 226319 gold split between those early rushers that bought all the initial supply and then resold those sigils.

    What does this tell the players of this game? Next episode, and the ones after it, rush the content as fast as possible, skip dialogue and cutscenes, in order to see what kind of new collection exists that requires old cheap items, so you can buy them all at their current low market value, then relist them and make an absolutely huge profit. I guess for you, 227k gold in profit isn't enough of an incentive, and now that this non-sense is known, a player could easily do it next time alone (681 gold is nothing), provided they are the FASTEST one. Or the group of fastest ones. And you don't see this as incentive to rush the content? How much extra gold do they need to add as a reward to the first player that finishes an episode to make it enough incentive for you.

    Right ... so again ... how is that not about price? It's completely is. If the sigil had stayed at 3s ... there would be no complaint here. It all relates to the price. The only reason as you explained, that anyone wants to rush the content is because they don't want to pay high prices for sigils. If the sigils stayed at 3s, there isn't a rush. The price of sigils is the cause of people wanting to rush. Are you familiar with cause and effect? This isn't a stretch of logic here.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Psientist.6437Psientist.6437 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 3, 2018

    When I defend the moral potential of a trade floor I never forget that human flesh may be traded on the trade floor. The trade floor can facilitate the exchange of a product that would be lethally hypocritical if the trade floor were the source of moral narrative. The moral potential of the market rests with the economic actors and the narrative of shaking hands. Just the trade floor will never be enough.

    Again, here is the narrative of the Tyrian handshake. Cash for time with time as RNG. RNG at best implies tradeable units of time. Any of us could spend eternity at the Mystic Forge. To deliver tradeable time, the handshake must rely on players competing over RNG. We do not get to live in a game where we don't have to establish narrative, where narrative isn't paramount.

    all primes work and not tearing down has value
    ready purrlayer @ any parsed feels enhance the value of something that is already worth everything
    what other chordal approach but penultimate singing along with other quantum cuddle clocks

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