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Thieves ruin WvW


Gondolph.7201

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@geist.4126 said:

@geist.4126 said:I played thief the whole weekend. Marauder gear, berserker/assassin trinkets. And I did exactly that with a d/d build. For five to six kills I did one time. The skill cap for this is between making coffee and sitting down in a chair if you can read your skill description and are not hunted by a larger group.

dude told yout to try full berserker gear,you reply with marauder gear and berserker/assasin trinkets.

that's not full berserker.

(and I have seen roamers on the map complaining about marauder stat set how "OP" and "broken" it is on it's own.....)

If I had a full berserker set I'd run it. Marauder doesn't make a difference, when you most of the time oneshot people. It just helps when you need to run. The times I died on that project I wouldn't have died more with berserker than with 6 pieces marauder, because the opponent didn't hit me.That's the whole thing about thief. You are fast, you have tons of escape, you burst like no one else and have unlimited access to stealth. The marauder gear gives you 2k extra hp which is nothing if your main goal is not to get hit. (you lose ~6-7% crit)

which is exacly why marauder set was not removed from sPvP for being unbala.... oh wait

so maybe that additional HP actually does make a difference, huh?

"never being hit" is not going to happen if your oponent has half a brain

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It's not thieves that's brokem. It's Deadeye specifically. Their easy perma stealthing and 1 shot downing ability is absurd. Their only counter (reveal) is removed by a two count ammo skill which is absurd. I don't understand why the only counter they have is countered by a simple utility. Anet truly doesn't play their own game.

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@"Lord Trejgon.2809" said:

which is exacly why marauder set was not removed from sPvP for being unbala.... oh wait

so maybe that additional HP actually does make a difference, huh?

"never being hit" is not going to happen if your oponent has half a brain

Still you won't die on that 2k hp difference by the majority of hits in WvW. Especially when you are in stealth, so not targetable, and are not in short range. Which you almost never are on a thief except for your short window of dealing damage before you go back to stealth or "port away". That's why I said "groups" are the only problem.

And about that "sPvP" comparison: 2k HP in sPvP mean a lot more than in WvW. I'd be totally fine if Anet decides to put the same templates into wvw.

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@Turk.5460 said:

@ProverbsofHell.2307 said:Sacrificing a utility JUST for thieves is insane imo.

Most DE builds are so dependent on Stealth, even just for a few seconds, that they are
required
to use Shadow Meld as their elite in case of Reveal.

Sacrificing an ELITE just to play the profession is insane imo.

When an elite is so powerful than any other elite is trash compared to it, this is an indicator it needs a nerf.

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@SoV.5139 said:

@ProverbsofHell.2307 said:Sacrificing a utility JUST for thieves is insane imo.

Most DE builds are so dependent on Stealth, even just for a few seconds, that they are
required
to use Shadow Meld as their elite in case of Reveal.

Sacrificing an ELITE just to play the profession is insane imo.

When an elite is so powerful than any other elite is trash compared to it, this is an indicator it needs a nerf.

Are you comparing it to other elites that the Thief has? Or other elites across all professions? Because one is subjective and the other one is flat out wrong.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Ehh Try to decloak a Thief as Revenant without wasting all your cash. But why not simply add something like 3 tries to ressurect someone. After those 3 tries they get auto ported back to spawn irregardless of timer. Thus the 5 minute timer ain't need to be changed, but it prevents thieves from simply resetting this timer over and over with 1 tick res as the target would get ported back to spawn after the 3rd try. But yea no. Unstealthing a thief isn't the same on all classes. As mentioned Revenants HAVe to pay to be able to decloak a thief. Nice pay to win mechanic.

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How about we just buff reveal to 10 seconds after out of stealth and change the damage modifiers for dagger and rifle attacks instead? You already have mobility, stun breaks, high damage, best access to stealth and condi cleanse. You don't need all of these tools to play your class.It just changes the skill floor for thieves a bit. It won't be as low risk as it is now or better "is since release".

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Only thief players and anet balancing team thinks that a 11k vault followed by a 13k vault is 'balanced' and ok.

Sure, it is balanced, if everyone has a base HP of 50k. Until that happens, just 1/4th thief damage output or remove the class altogether. It is broken, it was broken. You had 6 years and in all that time you made it worse. So time to confess that you can't balance it, and nerf it into oblivion where it belongs.

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@TorQ.7041 said:

Only a deadeye has that dmg out put you are so annoyed about.

I just wanted to comment that it's not only the deadeye that has the big damage, their damage is really comparable to every other thief variant with them trading mobility for stealth.

The common theme I see when listening to people complain about thief damage is that the thief popped signet. Not on my thief and I have the memory of a gold fish but it's assassin signet I think, gives me 540 power on my thief when I activate it. I see my own guild thieves on daredevil and core routinely down a target before i've even had a change to fire off Deaths Judgment and its because they use the signet to ensure high damage.

To single out Deadeye and complain about its damage is really to completely misunderstand how the damage is being attained and what the different builds can and cannot do.

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@Gondolph.7201 said:currently there is a increasing use of thieves in WvW. The tactics is usually the following: 3 thieves are in the (enemies) castle. We tried as a zerg to kill them, but you need approx. 20 min sometimes tro get 2 of them. The stealth disruption trap is almost useless now, since the death-eye is visible for approx. 2-3 sec now. They are almost permanent invisible anyway.So if the zerg does not want to run for hours behind phantoms, the leader finally decides to ignore thieves. and go for fights then. 10 minutes later the castle is fallen. Half of the game mechanics renders obsolete, there is no point anymore in nurturing castles to higher levels, unless the full zerg remains in it.

that is no fun anymore.

Yeah, ok. Try playing one.

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@Fallesafe.5932 said:

@Gondolph.7201 said:currently there is a increasing use of thieves in WvW. The tactics is usually the following: 3 thieves are in the (enemies) castle. We tried as a zerg to kill them, but you need approx. 20 min sometimes tro get 2 of them. The stealth disruption trap is almost useless now, since the death-eye is visible for approx. 2-3 sec now. They are almost permanent invisible anyway.So if the zerg does not want to run for hours behind phantoms, the leader finally decides to ignore thieves. and go for fights then. 10 minutes later the castle is fallen. Half of the game mechanics renders obsolete, there is no point anymore in nurturing castles to higher levels, unless the full zerg remains in it.

that is no fun anymore.

Yeah, ok. Try playing one.

why? hes not correct?u can permastealth u just kneel put down 4 i believe and heartseeker against a wall no1 see ur crap on ground it cost less ini then blackpowder top of that u can just dodge roll top of that u can use ur heal skill top of that u have plenty of skills to keep stealthed.

now i did play one infact i main thief but not deadeye i always seem to get bored within 1/2 kills on deadeye.the people here are correct, the stealth on deadeye is out of hand and its bullshit the way deadeye works now.what i would love to see is a nerf on deadeye trait line and not on core thief trait line other non deadeyes dont have to be punished for a retarded elite that isnt even remotely fun to play.

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@"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:Only thief players and anet balancing team thinks that a 11k vault followed by a 13k vault is 'balanced' and ok.

Sure, it is balanced, if everyone has a base HP of 50k. Until that happens, just 1/4th thief damage output or remove the class altogether. It is broken, it was broken. You had 6 years and in all that time you made it worse. So time to confess that you can't balance it, and nerf it into oblivion where it belongs.

yes meanwhile (not crying for nerf) a warrior is spanking me 4/5k/4k while doing 1111 with his axe or w/e he was doing but was same shit hitting me, till i died.only if every1 would get put back in place.thief is by far not superior anymore at dealing dmg i can play rev and hit for 14k also while i dont even have to pop skills or be risky just hammer 2 all over the place and enjoy. :D

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@"reddie.5861" said:

thief is by far not superior anymore at dealing dmg i can play rev and hit for 14k also while i dont even have to pop skills or be risky just hammer 2 all over the place and enjoy. :D

You mean those 14k damage that comes with a really huge animation you can't miss is similar to a 15k backstab or death's judgement coming out of stealth?Or do you try to compare the "I hit you and vanish into thin air to do the same stuff again" vs slow heavy armor class that has almost no defense when being attacked?

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@reddie.5861 said:

@"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:Only thief players and anet balancing team thinks that a 11k vault followed by a 13k vault is 'balanced' and ok.

Sure, it is balanced, if everyone has a base HP of 50k. Until that happens, just 1/4th thief damage output or remove the class altogether. It is broken, it was broken. You had 6 years and in all that time you made it worse. So time to confess that you can't balance it, and nerf it into oblivion where it belongs.

yes meanwhile (not crying for nerf) a warrior is spanking me 4/5k/4k while doing 1111 with his axe or w/e he was doing but was same kitten hitting me, till i died.only if every1 would get put back in place.thief is by far not superior anymore at dealing dmg i can play rev and hit for 14k also while i dont even have to pop skills or be risky just hammer 2 all over the place and enjoy. :D

and while the rev can hit for 14k, you see him coming. You see him, you see the animation, you see the effect. You can react. And afterwards, you can take him down.

A thief vaulting you? You know it the moment you go down. No defense against it. Sure, deadeye is even worse. But that is not an excuse, just another point proving that the entire thief class is broken - and anet is doing nothing about it.

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Since I don't feel that I can say anything that will be constructive enough to matter, I'm just going to state some thoughts and opinions instead.

I dislike fighting Deadeyes for similar reasons to what many others feel. The counterplay is heavily lacking and I dislike suddenly being one shot when I am typically very aware of my surroundings, yet still manage to be blind sided.

However, I don't mind that they exist as they currently do. I understand the risks I take when I travel alone and I understand that balance is no longer as forgiving as it was pre-expansions. Mind you, balance has never been incredibly good in GW2 to begin with, even "back in the day." It was just less cluttered with less counters to counters, but still as full of cheese and faceroll as it is now.But I digress, WvW is a team sport. There are classes that benefit each other in large scale zergs and there are classes that work together on the fringe of those zergs. If more players formed pick squads with Rangers, Thieves, Mesmers, Engineers, etc. we could see a whole new dynamic to what WvW has to offer. Unfortunately, because zerging is much easier than picking and clouding, we don't often see much of the latter. This leaves Deadeyes, Soulbeasts and other specs that have potential to be great partners, instead floating around by themselves causing trouble for the little ones who've been separated from their herd.

It is understandable that so many people dislike fighting Deadeyes due to the feeling of being "cheap shotted" that they frequently instill. But the witch hunt to see them nerfed, and often times Thief as a whole by way of misunderstanding or blanket statements, has to stop. It is not the only spec nor profession that can replace skill with mechanics. It is just the most apparent due to it's design. Some people don't mind it while others see it as an attack on their personal enjoyment of the game. For those who feel it is greatly impeding their fun, I highly suggest giving it an honest try to better understand how it works. If you do so and all your beliefs are confirmed, fine, but I guarantee you'll learn a few things along the way that can help you to fight against it.

Anyway, I've gone off track again... My point is that it isn't the only spec to have severe balancing issues. Times change and this is how GW2 is now. If people would prefer to wallow in loathing and nostalgia then they should at least have the courtesy to consider the feelings of others. I have my own bad habits of being opinionated or short tempered so I'm not excluding myself from that last statement.Just have fun and keep trying. Everyone dies, loses and makes mistakes. GW2 still has one of the best combat systems on the market and letting small things ruin it for you because "balance" is just plain silly. If you can't beat something with skill alone, I guarantee you can outsmart it. So use your head or put it in someone's cross hairs.

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@Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497 said:

@oOStaticOo.9467 said:I still say that Thieves should have 2 modes. Stealth/Mobility mode where they can run around without being seen and scout but not attack. Attack mode where they can attack and have some mobility but no Stealth.

No. Stealth is a major part of thiefs defenses, along with their mobility. Remove it, and you'll have to compensate them. Which you probably wont like.

The stealth protects them by giving them a needed buff to damage resistance to protect them from AoE spam, and to break targeting of moves that will kill them. Also remember that a thief that is perma stealth has several major vulnerabilities. Condi, cc, and limited escape options.

Alongside with mobility, blinds and ton of evades and in case of DE add very long range.You have defensive tools, even more than other classes. Also considering how much dmg you do you should be such a glass cannon you should die just by looking at you.Nerf stealth into oblivion.

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@"oOStaticOo.9467" said:I still say that Thieves should have 2 modes. Stealth/Mobility mode where they can run around without being seen and scout but not attack. Attack mode where they can attack and have some mobility but no Stealth.

This is actually basically what they already have done, except that backstab dmg does insane amounts of dmg which almost annuls the rest of the class balance (I think thieves where rather just quickly backstab optimized so they would be viable in melee raid dps roles (and to make space for "warriors with daggers"), those things had a bad impact in the other game modes.

I never played invisible backstab builds much, but quite abit as a "flashy swashbuckler sword thief" that only stealths to escape really bad situations, but its nerfed so bad it doesnt deal competitive dmg these days, u gotta stealth + dagger these days (or p/p), too weak for everything else.

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@RangerThings.9810 said:

@Sunapollo.9152 said:How about making a “invisible dimension” such that if you are also invisible then you can see the other invisible players in the same dimension?

In DAoC, the original WvW, stealth classes could spec to see other stealth classes. Higher spec, further vision. This would be a great thief mechanic imho.

I really like this idea.

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@Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497 said:

No. Stealth is a major part of thiefs defenses, along with their mobility. Remove it, and you'll have to compensate them. Which you probably wont like.

The stealth protects them by giving them a needed buff to damage resistance to protect them from AoE spam, and to break targeting of moves that will kill them. Also remember that a thief that is perma stealth has several major vulnerabilities. Condi, cc, and limited escape options.

Then why my core power necro does not have stealths, mobility, evades, block etc? Core power necro needs them too. ((Any top necro player could 1v1 with core power necro vs deadeye?))

because necro has other means of protecting themselves and staying alive.

Citation needed

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@Virelion.4128 said:

@"oOStaticOo.9467" said:I still say that Thieves should have 2 modes. Stealth/Mobility mode where they can run around without being seen and scout but not attack. Attack mode where they can attack and have some mobility but no Stealth.

No. Stealth is a major part of thiefs defenses, along with their mobility. Remove it, and you'll have to compensate them. Which you probably wont like.

The stealth protects them by giving them a needed buff to damage resistance to protect them from AoE spam, and to break targeting of moves that will kill them. Also remember that a thief that is perma stealth has several major vulnerabilities. Condi, cc, and limited escape options.

Alongside with mobility, blinds and ton of evades and in case of DE add very long range.You have defensive tools, even more than other classes. Also considering how much dmg you do you should be such a glass cannon you should die just by looking at you.Nerf stealth into oblivion.

You understand a class can have all of those tools but not be able to have all of them at the same time right? "nerf stealth into oblivion", there's a brilliant idea, and after that?

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@kash.9213 said:

@"oOStaticOo.9467" said:I still say that Thieves should have 2 modes. Stealth/Mobility mode where they can run around without being seen and scout but not attack. Attack mode where they can attack and have some mobility but no Stealth.

No. Stealth is a major part of thiefs defenses, along with their mobility. Remove it, and you'll have to compensate them. Which you probably wont like.

The stealth protects them by giving them a needed buff to damage resistance to protect them from AoE spam, and to break targeting of moves that will kill them. Also remember that a thief that is perma stealth has several major vulnerabilities. Condi, cc, and limited escape options.

Alongside with mobility, blinds and ton of evades and in case of DE add very long range.You have defensive tools, even more than other classes. Also considering how much dmg you do you should be such a glass cannon you should die just by looking at you.Nerf stealth into oblivion.

You understand a class can have all of those tools but not be able to have all of them at the same time right? "nerf stealth into oblivion", there's a brilliant idea, and after that?

I think if they nerf it into oblivion or remove it, then thieves will become like very agile warriors dancing around people and ignoring dmg and receiving passives. Or imagine if thieves got their skills like weavers, that would be kind of interesting. I don't mind playing piano solo on keyboard but I bet it'll still make people cry.

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The way other games approach the 'rogue' class is with high mobility and stealth while placing emphasis on an opening attack (ambushing your target). This game enables what the majority of others condemn.. virtually endless stealth if you build for it and the counterplay does exist but it's low risk for a high reward. I'd recommend changing so that thieves have the option to toggle a permanent stealth outside of combat and give them an elite skill that places them back in stealth while removing conditions.

To compensate for the new lack of spammable stealth, let's give Thieves more access to evasion and maybe a temporary disarm/parry mechanic. This fits the class thematically and can be tailored for any existing trait lines. I doubt many would have objections for this new style of gameplay.

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