Relatively newbie player confused by WvW "culture". — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Relatively newbie player confused by WvW "culture".

Zychuu.7294Zychuu.7294 Member ✭✭
edited November 4, 2018 in WvW

Hello. I'm a relatively new player. I'm playing the game for maybe like 2 months with varying intensity but I enjoy the game, lore, story and most of the game modes a lot. One thing I cannot really grasp is strange culture of WvW squads. As a newbie I came here for explanations, not to make accusations but to be honest more often than not I feel that there is unreasonable amount of idk... elitism(?) in zerg wvw squads. Apparently the server I happen to play at has quite competitive WvW community(bonus points for guessing the server, I'm not going to namecall it right now). They seem to be relatively well organised with discord, dedicated site with meta builds for their zergs etc. The problem is that many commanders seem to have great pleasure in kicking people for sometimes clear sometimes not at all reasons varying from picking 'wrong' specialisation to having wrong food active, of course if anybody even bothers to clarify what went wrong before kicking people. It applies even to situation where there is clearly plenty of room in the squad left and 'having to make some room for GUT people' is not the case. I think I went through most of the scenarios. Got kicked without a word, kicked with info from kind stranger on what I did wrong, seen people got kicked for whatever reason, was allowed in with both more or less 'proper' build and terribly suboptimal for anything build only because specialisation marker and food buff checked out. Of course you don't have to be in the squad to follow the zerg but I can't really see how limiting people's ability to be in squad helps anyone, unless you are really short on slots and have to filter people out somehow. Commander denies access to squad chat, which can be inconvenient even if discord voice chat is being used. Commander on the other hand gets less information on state of the zerg with non-squad people running around etc. At least that's how I see it.

Some questions:
1. Am I missing something and getting rid of 'non proper meta' players from the squad and have them just follow the tag on their own benefits anybody somehow?
2. Is really WvW so much about meta-building?
3. Is it "industry standard" or my server is a little over the top?
4. Should I even care if I want to stay in WvW for fun pvp experience? Maybe I should learn to roam solo/in smaller groups instead of dealing with this kitten?
5. How this strange culture even came to be. Is it really sustainable that way? Trying to get into WvW without proper knowledge and picking 'wrong' class can bring insta-toxicity and scare away potential new players way to easy.

I want to emphasise once more that I don't feel in place to call into question how WvW should work and pass my judgements as 'right'. I'm just random inexperienced guy who wants to know how the community he came across works.

Comments

  • aspirine.6852aspirine.6852 Member ✭✭✭

    Vabbi by any chance? They are very strict in the builds they will accept to their squad. And to be fair it is their squad so their rules.
    If it is not then I guess other servers have this attitude too now :(
    Are you sure the tag was open btw? Perhaps you tried to join closed ones? I would start of with a smaller linked server where people seem to be a bit friendlier towards new players. And we should because we need new players.

  • Strider Pj.2193Strider Pj.2193 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 4, 2018

    At the start of your post you note you are a relatively new player to WvW which I infer from it that you have some experience with it based on the statement.

    Like most end game area of GW2 there are optimal and sub optimal builds for each mode.

    WvW has theirs. I would suggest the following:

    • check back with the helpful stranger to see if you can access the discord
    • Ask for a link to the builds and specs the server tends to run
    • Build towards this with proper food and tool which, honestly can be an instant giveaway that you aren’t running what is asked for
    • Ask if the server (maybe this particular commander) has training runs where suggestions can be given.

    Sounds a lot like Raids and T4 fractals doesn’t it?

    Now if you have no desire to do that, which is your choice, then just follow along at your own risk and hazard. I would not suggest this, but it’s up to you.

    @Zychuu.7294 said:
    Hello. I'm a relatively new player. I'm playing the game for maybe like 2 months with varying intensity but I enjoy the game, lore, story and most of the game modes a lot. One thing I cannot really grasp is strange culture of WvW squads. As a newbie I came here for explanations, not to make accusations but to be honest more often than not I feel that there is unreasonable amount of idk... elitism(?) in zerg wvw squads. Apparently the server I happen to play at has quite competitive WvW community(bonus points for guessing the server, I'm not going to namecall it right now). They seem to be relatively well organised with discord, dedicated site with meta builds for their zergs etc. The problem is that many commanders seem to have great pleasure in kicking people for sometimes clear sometimes not at all reasons varying from picking 'wrong' specialisation to having wrong food active, of course if anybody even bothers to clarify what went wrong before kicking people. It applies even to situation where there is clearly plenty of room in the squad left and 'having to make some room for GUT people' is not the case. I think I went through most of the scenarios. Got kicked without a word, kicked with info from kind stranger on what I did wrong, seen people got kicked for whatever reason, was allowed in with both more or less 'proper' build and terribly suboptimal for anything build only because specialisation marker and food buff checked out. Of course you don't have to be in the squad to follow the zerg but I can't really see how limiting people's ability to be in squad helps anyone, unless you are really short on slots and have to filter people out somehow. Commander denies access to squad chat, which can be inconvenient even if discord voice chat is being used. Commander on the other hand gets less information on state of the zerg with non-squad people running around etc. At least that's how I see it.

    Some questions:
    1. Am I missing something and getting rid of 'non proper meta' players from the squad and have them just follow the tag on their own benefits anybody somehow?
    2. Is really WvW so much about meta-building?
    3. Is it "industry standard" or my server is a little over the top?
    4. Should I even care if I want to stay in WvW for fun pvp experience? Maybe I should learn to roam solo/in smaller groups instead of dealing with this kitten?
    5. How this strange culture even came to be. Is it really sustainable that way? Trying to get into WvW without proper knowledge and picking 'wrong' class can bring insta-toxicity and scare away potential new players way to easy.

    I want to emphasise once more that I don't feel in place to call into question how WvW should work and pass my judgements as 'right'. I'm just random inexperienced guy who wants to know how the community he came across works.

  • Zychuu.7294Zychuu.7294 Member ✭✭
    edited November 4, 2018

    @aspirine.6852 said:
    Vabbi by any chance?

    Wow that was quick. Nice one.

    Yeah I'm talking about open squads. Now when you mentioned it I find it very ineffective to left the squad open and kick ton of people instead of closing it in the first place, but whatever, as you said, their squads so their rules. They are quite strict about it, but at least more or less precise about their requirements (it's not like the discord and/or builds site are super hidden). I'm just not really sure if I can keep up with such attitude myself.

  • ArchonWing.9480ArchonWing.9480 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 4, 2018

    To a degree this exists, but not for all groups; pug groups generally need bodies and kicking people for food seems kinda extreme.

    @sephiroth.4217 said:
    My advice would be to find a server or commander you enjoy following and support that commander, rude commanders and elite commanders generally don't have a following for long, especially the ones who blame the pugs instead of themselves.

    And yea that.

  • you know... switching servers is not a bad choice sometimes... there are even some carebear like servers out there. There are guilds and commanders on smaller servers who don't give a kitten about your build, as long as you just pull your weight.

  • @Zychuu.7294 said:
    Some questions:
    1. Am I missing something and getting rid of 'non proper meta' players from the squad and have them just follow the tag on their own benefits anybody somehow?
    2. Is really WvW so much about meta-building?
    3. Is it "industry standard" or my server is a little over the top?
    4. Should I even care if I want to stay in WvW for fun pvp experience? Maybe I should learn to roam solo/in smaller groups instead of dealing with this kitten?
    5. How this strange culture even came to be. Is it really sustainable that way? Trying to get into WvW without proper knowledge and picking 'wrong' class can bring insta-toxicity and scare away potential new players way to easy.

    There are many different subcultures within WvW. On some servers the kind of toxic try-harding you are describing is more vocal than others. On some servers it's very common to see comms act in the toxic way you are talking about.
    On other servers people just put up an open tag and make do with whatever joins the squad, not caring if people are running halloween food and just hoping the zerg can build on time.
    Some servers are a mixture of both.

    The kind of stringent requirements you are talking about from comms on open tags is not indicative of the player base at large. You see it much more in serious WvW guilds...and that is totally their right.
    But when they start behaving that way to open pugs?
    You make the choice at that point, to conform or do something else. It's their squad, their rules.

    WvW is not nearly as strict to the meta as you would believe from your experiences. They are a lot of people who gatekeep the game mode pretty hard, but they are not the majority, (though sometimes they are more vocal). WvW is the perfect place to theorcraft wacky builds and experiment. Most open tag commanders just hope you can stay alive, keep up your supply and build on time..extra points if you can bring something to the squad.

    My advice when the BL you are in has tags up that behave like that to pugs on open tags, go check to see if your world has active players on other BL. Stop zergging and learn to roam.

  • Baldrick.8967Baldrick.8967 Member ✭✭✭

    Play something useful, or be useful. I mainly play on my ranger, which isn't really meta and won't get you in squads unless they know you... I'm the guy that scouts around then rejoins our group, builds and mans a treb or a cata, calls location and numbers, runs a merged healing pet, snipes the right targets and positions himself well with a decent build (group benefit skills) so that I tend to be one of the last downed, knocks back those pesky people trying to disable siege, targets a/cs, etc on walls and generally contribute more than many other players in the zerg.

    If you're not sure on food then just check what you should be using. Given the number of players I see running none or just one (some because it ran out and they didn't notice!) I'd be surprised if people are kicking for that.

    And you make a valid point about kicking and then having sub optimals following you around anyway- mostly the reason you're kicked is to do with group compositions and boon shares etc. If our group is particularly well organised and they might need a space I volunteer to drop (I can follow a com easily and have known most of them long enough to be able to play with them without needing to be in the group) as I don't have that much need for the group support that might be better with another guard in that party.

    Play something that you enjoy playing- it's no fun if you don't like the toon you're being 'forced' to play.

    Or move down a tier. Where groups are never full and they are just glad to have people to play with!!

  • Diku.2546Diku.2546 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 4, 2018

    My heart goes out to the OP.

    Once upon a time...we were allowed to have long-term communities that welcomed you, but lots of resident WvW Forum experts demanded that the game mode be changed into what it is now....and actually think they've contributed to improving WvW. ANet took their advice seriously...and this awful trend continues through today...with Alliance Linking. I blame the WvW Forum experts...that supported Server Linking that caused this cascade of culture change. You reap what you sow. Sorry that WvW doesn't have the long-term communities that we used to have....where you could eventually find a Server to match your niche.

    Players like the OP could....once upon a time....humbly start out from a low desolate Server....and move to more populated Servers....learning how the culture of WvW works...instead of being dumped directly into the big tank filled with Sharks....this is what the Server Linking mechanic does...eventually we run out of fodder noobs to throw into the battle.

    Yours truly,
    Diku

    p.s.
    See some of my past posts...please vote Helpful or Thumbs up if you agree.

  • My main suggestion to you is to join a more casual wvw guild on your server. Let them know that you're relatively new but you're willing to learn. 9 times out of 10 they should be able to walk you through the game mode.

  • SpellOfIniquity.1780SpellOfIniquity.1780 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 4, 2018

    Being in a squad means that boons, heals and buffs will prioritize those that are in the squad over those that are not. Certain classes are not as reliant on those things as others, and/or do not provide them. For example, a Thief has enough ways to survive without the support of a squad and does not offer enough support to need to be in it. Other classes, like Necromancer for example, do not have ways to survive without support.

    Although every class can benefit from being in a squad and every class has it's own support to offer, some provide much more significant support or are much more reliant on it. Therefore, by being in a squad as something that does not need nor provide, you are potentially siphoning that support to yourself over someone who needs it more. An example would be if you were on the backline with a Ranger getting a lot of heals and Stability while the Necromancer next to you is getting very little and struggling to survive, thus also struggling to contribute meaningful damage.

    You are entitled to play what you want, but there is a reason the meta exists. You can choose to be stubborn, which will almost certainly impact your experience negatively. Or you can adapt either by improving your survival skills and understanding of your chosen class, or by switching to something that is a part of the meta and thus welcomed in squads.

    Good luck, and I hope this helped in some way.

    [HUNT] [Blep] [CTH] | Necromancer 💀, Ranger 🏹, Warrior 💪, Engineer 🛠️, Revenant ⚔️ | Maguuma | 💎 Legend
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  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭

    The simple answer to anyone that feel dissapointed by this commander dictated "culture":

    Tag up.

    Even Vabbi (huehuehue) has a major shortage of commanders at all times and many people no longer seem to care. I am on FSP (Vabbi link for anyone not knowing) and have been tagging pink kittycat from time to time and recieved none of the "go guardian or tag the eff off" that frequently happened when FSP was going solo. Will you replace a blue commander on ts? No, of course not. Know your own limits. You're not going to fight 70 angry Germans with 5 people in squad. Leave that to the blues. Their squad, they decide what they want in it so that they can fight those numbers, which is sort of the point. You can help them if you choose but if you go against the meta flow... you do so at the risk of getting kicked. If you got your own squad however, you're not getting kicked.

    If you choose to go against the zerg meta and isnt interested in tagging to even get the smallest/loosest of squads going, well thats just normal roaming. Thats fine too. We do it all the time and we're un-kickable.

  • Aiga.3075Aiga.3075 Member ✭✭

    Not sure what server you are on but all the commanders I have seen on my server will sometimes ask for certain classes and build's but never demand them. I know guilds do this but I have yet to see a pugmander do it and we still hold our own in most fights. I would find another server that just enjoys the fights win or lose.

  • Voltekka.2375Voltekka.2375 Member ✭✭✭✭

    It also heavily depends on what class you play. Is it scrapper/ranger? The kick will be incoming within the first few seconds. Some servers accept every class in their squad, until the squad becomes full. Then they kick the less useful (rangers, engies, thieves) to get more blobclasses (spellbreakers, firebrands, scourges, revenants, eles).

  • Join maguuma we don't care! Why? Because in 6 months you'll divorce us and leave crys

    No joke though. if your NA sever related go to maguuma we will train you then ship you out to a new server and then we will train new ones to replace you but sadly we are starting to run out of people to train ;3

  • Rysdude.3824Rysdude.3824 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Lol no surprise there OP. You’re playing on whats generally known as the cesspool server. Not all servers are like that and not by a long shot. Good advice givin already but since you’re linked with FSP, try to find one of their guilds to shadow/learn from. FSP has great players.

  • Miko.4158Miko.4158 Member ✭✭✭

    you've hit a very salty server.
    even by wvw standards.
    enjoy the game, ignore alot of the advice, you won't last very long if you go all zerker gear and you are new.
    you need easier builds and play to learn the ebb and flow of wvw. If you die in the first 5 secs every time you will learn nothing.
    ALso know your classes 'role' and weapon set. you need to be comfortable if you are going to start understanding the more pvp side......

  • Caliburn.1845Caliburn.1845 Member ✭✭✭

    When stepping into a new gamemode(with the intent to get better at it) the process is simple, but requires some effort on the part of the rookie. Jump into WvW, ask the commanders you seeing running around which voice communication they use, get in voice communications with said commanders. Once in their TS/Discord/whatever, during a lull in the fighting, state that you are new to WvW, and could use some guidance into which classes to play, and which builds to use. If they ignore you, they're not what you're looking for, if they answer you, take their advice, and do what they suggest.

    Caliburn.1845, Monsters Inc(BOO) guildleader.
    DH>DB>BG>MAG>YB>SBI>YB>AR

  • LaGranse.8652LaGranse.8652 Member ✭✭✭

    One could not even pay me to play on vabbi. I suggest you transfer to a less toxic server where other people do not force you to play the game their way.

  • @Aiga.3075 said:
    Not sure what server you are on but all the commanders I have seen on my server will sometimes ask for certain classes and build's but never demand them. I know guilds do this but I have yet to see a pugmander do it and we still hold our own in most fights. I would find another server that just enjoys the fights win or lose.

    it is Vabbi. Where all the self proclaimed fighting/good guilds converged. It is cesspit.

    The easiest way would be to change servers. Deso has some nice people, AG, GH, PS...

    btw is PS still carebear no1?

  • Inoki.6048Inoki.6048 Member ✭✭✭

    @sephiroth.4217 said:
    As far as I'm concerned... A bad commander needs everyone to run META builds in order to be efficient, while a good commander can make use of everyone and still be effective.

    I've seen good commanders, but they are extremely rare. They do things like putting Thieves into 1 squad and assigning them the roles of chasing down stragglers or skirting the outsides of fights, they give rangers the role of Pinsniping using unblockable attacks and so forth.

    My advice would be to find a server or commander you enjoy following and support that commander, rude commanders and elite commanders generally don't have a following for long, especially the ones who blame the pugs instead of themselves.

    Explain this to the people of Vabbi :joy: pretty sure all their commanders request people to run META ;) while all of them think they're the best while now in T4 :D

    btw, I'm suspecting the OP is on Vabbi.

  • Bigpapasmurf.5623Bigpapasmurf.5623 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Larenc.1269 said:
    Join maguuma we don't care! Why? Because in 6 months you'll divorce us and leave crys

    No joke though. if your NA sever related go to maguuma we will train you then ship you out to a new server and then we will train new ones to replace you but sadly we are starting to run out of people to train ;3

    Best Mag self diss i've seen

    +1 good Sir and/or Ma'am

    Red = Dead...or someone runs away. Either way it's gone.
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  • Grim West.3194Grim West.3194 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 4, 2018

    Been playing this game a long time. Seen a lot of commanders, metas and elitists come and go. With ANET's garbage transfer policy still in place, you can bet most of these idiots will be bandwagoning somewhere else soon enough.

    Don't take these people too seriously, it's just a game and you can play it how you want. If you want to be a part of their subculture and be a part of the team then you may have to adjust your playstyle a bit depending on the commander. But it isn't important, no matter what bs they claim.

    I generally don't bother joining squads anymore, don't even get on discord. You can follow a zerg and not have to join the squad. If they don't like it, tough.

  • CrimsonNeonite.1048CrimsonNeonite.1048 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 4, 2018

    He is talking about Fight commanders, who are trying to get an organized group together, to fight another organized group, not a PVE/PVD ktrain.
    It means some classes are going excluded and proper builds are a must too, not Full Zerk Thieves or Rangers; who rallybot everyone.

    You can choose to follow someone who is more lenient or even transfer if it's too 'elitist' for you, but don't expect to be invited into a squad who is trying to fight another organised zerg, where the parties need to share boons and heals, to those who actually need it.

    @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:

    @Aiga.3075 said:

    The easiest way would be to change servers. Deso has some nice people, AG, GH, PS...

    btw is PS still carebear no1?

    There are PPT commanders and other random tags who don't care about fights and composition, so yeah.

  • SkyShroud.2865SkyShroud.2865 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 4, 2018

    It is subjective to commanders.

    Some commanders just want to fight, just want actions, don't care about kdr or ppt. From what you described, those are just that kind of commander. They want to get a reliable fighting squad and use that squad as the primary basis of the strength level and decide a certain playstyle with that zerg. Of course you only filter people by builds, not by skills. Skills is not something you can easily determine among pugs, it is often determined by the average of the entire server. For example, a bandwagon full server certainly will have more skill players on average than a high or medium server. The commanders considered various factors and decided that filtration is necessary if they want to have a winning chance.

    Edit: As for why they not interested to explain. Simply because you are not the first and won't be the last, he or she just don't want to spend unimaginable amount of time to explain to every single person who may or may not change for his or her benefits.

    Founder & Leader of Equinox Solstice [TIME], a Singapore-Based International PvX Guild
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    --

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  • steki.1478steki.1478 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Inoki.6048 said:

    @sephiroth.4217 said:
    As far as I'm concerned... A bad commander needs everyone to run META builds in order to be efficient, while a good commander can make use of everyone and still be effective.

    I've seen good commanders, but they are extremely rare. They do things like putting Thieves into 1 squad and assigning them the roles of chasing down stragglers or skirting the outsides of fights, they give rangers the role of Pinsniping using unblockable attacks and so forth.

    My advice would be to find a server or commander you enjoy following and support that commander, rude commanders and elite commanders generally don't have a following for long, especially the ones who blame the pugs instead of themselves.

    Explain this to the people of Vabbi :joy: pretty sure all their commanders request people to run META ;) while all of them think they're the best while now in T4 :D

    btw, I'm suspecting the OP is on Vabbi.

    Being good has nothing to do with tiers. You win matchups by PPTing and having a lot of active people. None of those are related to skill level.

  • steki.1478steki.1478 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Zychuu.7294 said:

    Some questions:
    1. Am I missing something and getting rid of 'non proper meta' players from the squad and have them just follow the tag on their own benefits anybody somehow?

    By not being in squad you're not receiving boons which means that you do less damage and you die faster if you're staying near tag. People in such squads want to let you know that you're dead weight/not needed in squad (or even near squad if you're playing something ranged) and you should swap class/build accordingly.

    1. Is really WvW so much about meta-building?

    Besides zerg fights, wvw has karma trains (ppt), small scale fights, solo roaming, scouting or even a mix of those elements meaning that your squad depends on commander and purpose of creating the squad. While meta builds usually help, you can do most of those on self made builds.

    1. Is it "industry standard" or my server is a little over the top?

    Your server is stacked with people who appreciate good combat skills over everything else. It's normal to be toxic when you expect from people to be on your skill level. Imagine being a programmer and working with 10 year olds, eventually you'll want better colleagues, someone closer to your knowledge/skill level, someone who you can actually work with.

    1. Should I even care if I want to stay in WvW for fun pvp experience? Maybe I should learn to roam solo/in smaller groups instead of dealing with this kitten?

    It all depends on your way of having fun. Do you like dueling? Small scale fights? Medium zerg/guild fights? Large blob fights? What do you like about those? How do you want to contribute to those? Can you achieve that fun in spvp?

    1. How this strange culture even came to be. Is it really sustainable that way? Trying to get into WvW without proper knowledge and picking 'wrong' class can bring insta-toxicity and scare away potential new players way to easy.

    New players need to realize that wvw is a team game, especially large scale fights. If you want to contribute to team you need to learn how to actually be a part of it and it requires certain builds, mindset and motivation. If you just join by thinking you can do whatever you want and be accepted as that you're probably more suited for single player game, not MMO.

    I want to emphasise once more that I don't feel in place to call into question how WvW should work and pass my judgements as 'right'. I'm just random inexperienced guy who wants to know how the community he came across works.

    Join their discord/teamspeak. Ask questions about anything that interests you.

  • Ok guys. Thanks a lot for all the responses. I think I have a little better grasp on how this whole thing works. Even though I don't think I want to be a part of my server's community right now and I'm most likely going to switch(any ideas for nice EU not-Vabbi server?), I respect their right to play the game the way they want to.

    @Larenc.1269 said:
    Join maguuma we don't care! Why? Because in 6 months you'll divorce us and leave crys

    No joke though. if your NA sever related go to maguuma we will train you then ship you out to a new server and then we will train new ones to replace you but sadly we are starting to run out of people to train ;3

    D: I'm so sad that unfortunately I'm EU. I would switch right away. Unfortunately I'm EU and still have to look for nice server for me to switch to.

  • Get rid of downed state and rally and zergs will care much less about what people run.

  • Aiga.3075Aiga.3075 Member ✭✭

    @Zychuu.7294 said:
    Ok guys. Thanks a lot for all the responses. I think I have a little better grasp on how this whole thing works. Even though I don't think I want to be a part of my server's community right now and I'm most likely going to switch(any ideas for nice EU not-Vabbi server?), I respect their right to play the game the way they want to.

    @Larenc.1269 said:
    Join maguuma we don't care! Why? Because in 6 months you'll divorce us and leave crys

    No joke though. if your NA sever related go to maguuma we will train you then ship you out to a new server and then we will train new ones to replace you but sadly we are starting to run out of people to train ;3

    D: I'm so sad that unfortunately I'm EU. I would switch right away. Unfortunately I'm EU and still have to look for nice server for me to switch to.

    I have never played on a EU server so I don't know what the culture is like there but from everything I hear it sounds tryhard and toxic. A few NA servers have decent EU tz coverage maybe find one of them and switch to a NA server.

  • XenesisII.1540XenesisII.1540 Member ✭✭✭✭

    There are elitist in wvw, there are also bad commanders who need perfect builds to help carry them, either way squad commanders are free to run their squad however they like. If you don't like it then continue to find a commander you like, or join a guild and run in their squad, or create your own squad.

    Yes there are meta builds, no different than what you see in raids and fractals, you could just as well get kicked from those if you're not running a proper build. Some classes bring next to nothing in groups, which means they're built for smaller stuff like roaming, that's the way anet built them.

    Lastly, wvw is more than just running in a squad as there are many other things to take care of in wvw, but if that's all you want to do then find a good group friendly class to play, if you're playing a class that's more suited for small combat or roaming then maybe do that and see how it goes.

    Another derailing post. ^^
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  • Miko.4158Miko.4158 Member ✭✭✭

    plenty of decent non toxic players in EU.
    however I'd recommend finding a wvw guild and joining that.
    it takes along time to talk through a wvw build suitable for you ...like 20 mins on ts,
    as for the elitism -decent tags take everybody, if there's a que they can try and toxic you off so -swap to someone else. ignore.
    Also if they have range or melee they will play accordingly not bark for everybody to change builds,
    defend, take camps, find a smaller group or follow the tag anyway.
    you can always block people, the boons in the zerg aren't the be all and end all, let them go first...

  • subversiontwo.7501subversiontwo.7501 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 5, 2018

    @Zychuu.7294 said:
    Some questions:
    1. Am I missing something and getting rid of 'non proper meta' players from the squad and have them just follow the tag on their own benefits anybody somehow?
    2. Is really WvW so much about meta-building?
    3. Is it "industry standard" or my server is a little over the top?
    4. Should I even care if I want to stay in WvW for fun pvp experience? Maybe I should learn to roam solo/in smaller groups instead of dealing with this kitten?
    5. How this strange culture even came to be. Is it really sustainable that way? Trying to get into WvW without proper knowledge and picking 'wrong' class can bring insta-toxicity and scare away potential new players way to easy.

    I want to emphasise once more that I don't feel in place to call into question how WvW should work and pass my judgements as 'right'. I'm just random inexperienced guy who wants to know how the community he came across works.

    1. Asking (both politely and impolitely) for players on specific builds or classes do benefit a squad.
    2. It depends on what you mean by "meta-building", meta just generally refers to a common accepted level, a standard, it's not necessarily the best possible build(s). In squads and parties though, having cohesion and a good composition is quite important. It's an MMO so composition is a factor related to gameplay. It helps you do better but there are many situations in WvW where you can be more of an individualist and still do well in the face of a group.
    3. It feels as if you are confusing WvW, server, squads and specific squads lead by specific commanders. See one and two.
    4. One does not necessarily exclude the other. Do both?
    5. It's really hard to pack six years of back-and-forth into a short reply. Just assume that there are many factors and development that you have yet to see. It goes with the whole meta thing. All classes can do useful things in WvW, all classes can even do useful things in your typical blob. It is just that some classes you need many of and others fewer of, some classes are easy to learn others are hard, some classes have low skillfloors allowing you to do well on them even if you are inexperienced while others do not. The list goes on. That factors into the discussion of "meta" and even in this summary I am only scratching the surface of what your question entales. Commanders, guilds, relationships etc. also factor in along the line.

  • Sovereign.1093Sovereign.1093 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Zychuu.7294 said:
    Hello. I'm a relatively new player. I'm playing the game for maybe like 2 months with varying intensity but I enjoy the game, lore, story and most of the game modes a lot. One thing I cannot really grasp is strange culture of WvW squads. As a newbie I came here for explanations, not to make accusations but to be honest more often than not I feel that there is unreasonable amount of idk... elitism(?) in zerg wvw squads. Apparently the server I happen to play at has quite competitive WvW community(bonus points for guessing the server, I'm not going to namecall it right now). They seem to be relatively well organised with discord, dedicated site with meta builds for their zergs etc. The problem is that many commanders seem to have great pleasure in kicking people for sometimes clear sometimes not at all reasons varying from picking 'wrong' specialisation to having wrong food active, of course if anybody even bothers to clarify what went wrong before kicking people. It applies even to situation where there is clearly plenty of room in the squad left and 'having to make some room for GUT people' is not the case. I think I went through most of the scenarios. Got kicked without a word, kicked with info from kind stranger on what I did wrong, seen people got kicked for whatever reason, was allowed in with both more or less 'proper' build and terribly suboptimal for anything build only because specialisation marker and food buff checked out. Of course you don't have to be in the squad to follow the zerg but I can't really see how limiting people's ability to be in squad helps anyone, unless you are really short on slots and have to filter people out somehow. Commander denies access to squad chat, which can be inconvenient even if discord voice chat is being used. Commander on the other hand gets less information on state of the zerg with non-squad people running around etc. At least that's how I see it.

    Some questions:
    1. Am I missing something and getting rid of 'non proper meta' players from the squad and have them just follow the tag on their own benefits anybody somehow?
    2. Is really WvW so much about meta-building?
    3. Is it "industry standard" or my server is a little over the top?
    4. Should I even care if I want to stay in WvW for fun pvp experience? Maybe I should learn to roam solo/in smaller groups instead of dealing with this kitten?
    5. How this strange culture even came to be. Is it really sustainable that way? Trying to get into WvW without proper knowledge and picking 'wrong' class can bring insta-toxicity and scare away potential new players way to easy.

    I want to emphasise once more that I don't feel in place to call into question how WvW should work and pass my judgements as 'right'. I'm just random inexperienced guy who wants to know how the community he came across works.

    that sucks.

    but yes, wvw culture rotates on voip and certain builds.

    youll be lucky to be in agroup that is contrarian where everyone regresses to tje mean of meta.

    make friends and youll have fun.

    else, too many raging coms out there.

    think party and guild, not zerg. for the zerg is controlled by the com. players can wine but have no bearing if they are not the ones leading.

    dont like it, dont.join. want to join, conform. most coms know what their doing. coms are the most important.member in.a. server. without them, everything else is dead. few scouts duelers but... meh

    Not Even Coverage is the Only broken thing in WVW.

  • aspirine.6852aspirine.6852 Member ✭✭✭

    Just one remark, do not make the mistake of going from vabbi to WSR, similar server so best leave that one to the so called elitists.

  • @Zychuu.7294 said:
    Ok guys. Thanks a lot for all the responses. I think I have a little better grasp on how this whole thing works. Even though I don't think I want to be a part of my server's community right now and I'm most likely going to switch(any ideas for nice EU not-Vabbi server?), I respect their right to play the game the way they want to.

    @Larenc.1269 said:
    Join maguuma we don't care! Why? Because in 6 months you'll divorce us and leave crys

    No joke though. if your NA sever related go to maguuma we will train you then ship you out to a new server and then we will train new ones to replace you but sadly we are starting to run out of people to train ;3

    D: I'm so sad that unfortunately I'm EU. I would switch right away. Unfortunately I'm EU and still have to look for nice server for me to switch to.

    If a casual fun playstyle is your thing and you're looking for a "nicer" EU server where you can just relax then maybe try Piken Square or its current link Ruins of Surmia.

  • Hex.2579Hex.2579 Member ✭✭✭

    those are kitten comms and since it's their squads, they could kick how they want, sadly.
    but i see there's no point in kicking people and they still follow the tag anyways, except not being able to see any commands or call outs ingame. so that's that.
    wvw isn't so much about meta building but wvw zerg is. because to be able to make sure you get enough dps to down a horde of people, at the same time need heal and cleanses to survive, you'll need specific classes that excel at these roles. and so the meta began and only narrowed down to a few classes at best at what they do.
    although my server ran off meta with pugs a lot, only a few comms can manage this without the poor pugs dying.
    in the end, most of us wanna zerg, we usually follow tag without joining until we get an invite or so. usually if your positioning is good, and you know what you're doing, they tend to send an invite left and right.
    i haven't roamed for a long time now since wvw reward system cuz now a roaming group that is smol is around 10 people or more. so you'll just get run over as a lonely roamer which is not fun anymore.
    stay a bit longer, maybe asking team chat which tag is running or what do they take? people would point you in the right direction. i have a lot of folks showing me around when i first started as a noob. lol.
    there are always kitten comms in every server. it doesn't make a server bad. it is what it is. we just have the hang with the right crowd xD

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Hex.2579 said:
    i haven't roamed for a long time now since wvw reward system cuz now a roaming group that is smol is around 10 people or more. so you'll just get run over as a lonely roamer which is not fun anymore.

    Which is why I said just tag up. You can be alone in the squad doing your own thing, that really doesnt matter. But people are drawn to a tag like flies to dung, making it so that you can actually beat those 10 people even if you dont command anything, just by having random friendlies around you.

    Sometimes all thats needed is a little encouragement to get people moving. Show them you're not afraid to go 1v10 even if you're alone. Also guilt trip them for not helping the tag. That helps too.

  • Tiny Doom.4380Tiny Doom.4380 Member ✭✭✭

    I definitely think the behaviors the OP describes must be either server or time-zone specific - or both. I've been in WvW since launch, mainly on Yaks Bend and for the last couple of years on many servers with my Ehmry Bay guest-linked account; I frequently (most days) hot-join open squads, usually on one of my three Eles but also on various rangers, necros and sometimes just whoever I happen to be on when a map call is issued.

    In six years I have never once been kicked from a squad on any character or asked to change my build. I have very often heard Commanders ask politely if people would mind changing to another class or expressing a concern that we have too many of class X and not enough of class Y but I have never seen anyone kicked over such concerns and if people don't change class the Commander invariably tries to carry on as best they can with what they have. That would seem to be the point of Pugmanding.

    I try not to join Guild squads even when they are open because quite reasonably they do expect specific classes and builds but guild Commanders frequently squad invite me anyway if I'm nearby so I end up running with them too. Maybe I just happen not to have been on or linked with a server that takes this stuff uber-seriously or perhaps because I play EU hours on NA servers Commanders are just happy to have warm bodies following the tag, but there are definitely looser and more friendly experiences to be had in WvW than those the OP has been unfortunate enough to encounter.

  • Hex.2579Hex.2579 Member ✭✭✭

    @Dawdler.8521 said:
    Which is why I said just tag up. You can be alone in the squad doing your own thing, that really doesnt matter. But people are drawn to a tag like flies to dung, making it so that you can actually beat those 10 people even if you dont command anything, just by having random friendlies around you.

    Sometimes all thats needed is a little encouragement to get people moving. Show them you're not afraid to go 1v10 even if you're alone. Also guilt trip them for not helping the tag. That helps too.

    no thanks xD i'll just spvp and wait for the next wvw rework. my server pugs are a different story.

  • @Tiny Doom.4380 said:
    I definitely think the behaviors the OP describes must be either server or time-zone specific - or both. I've been in WvW since launch, mainly on Yaks Bend and for the last couple of years on many servers with my Ehmry Bay guest-linked account; I frequently (most days) hot-join open squads, usually on one of my three Eles but also on various rangers, necros and sometimes just whoever I happen to be on when a map call is issued.

    In six years I have never once been kicked from a squad on any character or asked to change my build. I have very often heard Commanders ask politely if people would mind changing to another class or expressing a concern that we have too many of class X and not enough of class Y but I have never seen anyone kicked over such concerns and if people don't change class the Commander invariably tries to carry on as best they can with what they have. That would seem to be the point of Pugmanding.

    I try not to join Guild squads even when they are open because quite reasonably they do expect specific classes and builds but guild Commanders frequently squad invite me anyway if I'm nearby so I end up running with them too. Maybe I just happen not to have been on or linked with a server that takes this stuff uber-seriously or perhaps because I play EU hours on NA servers Commanders are just happy to have warm bodies following the tag, but there are definitely looser and more friendly experiences to be had in WvW than those the OP has been unfortunate enough to encounter.

    I would guess NA (EST) prime would be the biggest concentration of this, where the majority of fite guilds come on and also when pugs are most plentiful and often poor. Sometimes they will tell other people to get off their map to get their 50 on. Other times, I would guess people are going to be less picky about their choices.

    As a side note though, it's not really that big of a deal to be not in a squad since it's about boon sharing anyways and it's more important for the squad to stay alive anyways... players not playing builds optimized for this wouldn't benefit the squad as a whole and then everyone would wipe.

  • There has already been some excellent comments from people (above) so I don't have much more to add.
    Just wanted to say I've been here for a while with multiple servers and multiple Guilds ranging from fun/casual/pugging/hardcore and fortunately have never seen anything to the extent that you're descibing - and I'm a crappy player to boot!

    Your last two months is not indicative of the community I've experienced in general who are genuinely helpful - don't let that spoil your experience.
    Best of luck and have fun out there.

  • Hoon.1524Hoon.1524 Member ✭✭✭

    This anti-meta BS is seen too often. Once again, when goal/purpose (largescale, blob-busting, GvG, etc) and context (balance patch, etc) are defined, there is objectively a most effective way to build, called a "meta". It's silly to argue against the exitence of it. And how are the ones who "find" these meta's? The ones calculating and testing everything, which often are the hc/GvG guilds/players. NO different in PvE, where everyone and their grandmother look to the couple of top-guilds to provide them with the best builds every patch.

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