Why have gender in Guild Wars?

[Orimidu.9604]

@"TheLadyOfTheRings.9148" said:Since we're talking about gender, I would like to ask you something:

Would you like the option to choose what 'gender version' you want for clothing?

There are armor sets and outfits that look the same on both male and female. In these cases, there is only one 'version'. But for other armor sets and outfits, there are two versions, the 'male version' and the 'female version'. Many times I wish I could choose 'the other version' for my characters.

It's actually a no-brainer to keep this sort of thing out of MMOs and cooperative games in general. If it were done, you would start to see the same effects this stuff has in society: segregation, dissociation, bullying, etc. Prepare to see many "trans-only" LFGs and many "no crossdressers" LFGs, in addition to a massive influx of reports for them. If you thought Anet's ticket queue was backed up before, hoo boy you better pray that this kind of idea never enters Guild Wars.

[kharmin.7683]

GW2 is an MMO, not a social experiment. I prefer it to be kept that way.

[AstralDusk.1670]

I like how this question is actually about 3D animation ignorance while the comments are turning into a culture war.

[TheLadyOfTheRings.9148]

@Orimidu.9604 said:

@"TheLadyOfTheRings.9148" said:Since we're talking about gender, I would like to ask you something:

Would you like the option to choose what 'gender version' you want for clothing?

There are armor sets and outfits that look the same on both male and female. In these cases, there is only one 'version'. But for other armor sets and outfits, there are two versions, the 'male version' and the 'female version'. Many times I wish I could choose 'the other version' for my characters.

It's actually a no-brainer to keep this sort of thing out of MMOs and cooperative games in general. If it were done, you would start to see the same effects this stuff has in society: segregation, dissociation, bullying, etc. Prepare to see many "trans-only" LFGs and many "no crossdressers" LFGs, in addition to a massive influx of reports for them. If you thought Anet's ticket queue was backed up before, hoo boy you better pray that this kind of idea never enters Guild Wars.

Not sure If I understood what you're saying or if you understood what I'm saying. :) I'm talking about clothes and aesthetics. Giving people more options to dress up their characters. Maybe my question should have been posted in a thread about outfits and/or armor sets? :)

[maddoctor.2738]

Usually in video games male and female characters use the same skeleton, there are some exceptions though, when the specific anatomy is needed to be animated, although very few games do it and instead add physics to the parts that need it ("bouncing boobs" in some games is done with physics, not skeleton bones) It's very problematic to have different skeletons for males and females, it adds extra overhead and serves little purpose.

Although they have the same skeleton, they do have different animations, that's because they also have different meshes (the actual model of the character). This is because animations for bulkier builds wouldn't work very well on petite builds and vise versa. For example, notice how males standing have their arms at a further distance from the body than females, that's because male models have wider arms and if you choose a more bulky body type, the female pose would be insufficient (the arms would clip with the body) Meanwhile, females have their arms closer to their bodies but at a sharper angle, if they used the male animations, the arms would be like floating in mid air. Imagine the air plane pose from April's Fools but not as prominent of course. Finally the pose of the legs is completely different, males have their legs symmetrical while females have their left leg more forward, slightly leaning to the left, further male legs have a bigger distance between them, while female legs are more closed. All this is done to have more "anatomically correct" postures.

Using the latest haunted armor:http://dulfy.net/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/gw2-haunted-armor-outfit-hmale.jpghttp://dulfy.net/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/gw2-haunted-armor-outfit-hfemale.jpg

Allowing the player to blend the animations and mesh of their choice would break things completely, you can't use Sylvari Female animations on a Sylvari Male without causing issues. Perhaps not on all animations, but on many of them for sure.

[maddoctor.2738]

@"TheLadyOfTheRings.9148" said:Since we're talking about gender, I would like to ask you something:

Would you like the option to choose what 'gender version' you want for clothing?

There are armor sets and outfits that look the same on both male and female. In these cases, there is only one 'version'. But for other armor sets and outfits, there are two versions, the 'male version' and the 'female version'. Many times I wish I could choose 'the other version' for my characters.

This isn't possible, the female armors are built to follow the female mesh shape while the male armors are built to follow the male shape. I believe most male armors could be adjusted to work on the female body because they are bulkier, however the base female pose would cause clipping issues with the arms and the armors themselves would appear as if they are quite a few sizes bigger than the one wearing them (plus the female would have no breasts) which might be good actually because in real life armors rarely (if ever?) had curves to resemble breasts, there was no distinction between male and female armor.

The opposite, moving female armors to the male body shape is an impossibility because they simply wouldn't fit in it, plus the female clothing would create "breasts" and I'm sure that would look really weird.

[Dante.1763]

@AstralDusk.1670 said:I like how this question is actually about 3D animation ignorance while the comments are turning into a culture war.

To be fair to the war folks, the question he asked was poorly worded and the threads title is terrible for wanting some decent answers.

[zell.3051]

NO! We are not having this conversation here... AGAIN!

[Tommo Chocolate.5870]

I think a lot of people have misinterpreted this question (probably because the original wording was not very clear). Your choice of gender determines several cosmetic features at once: your voice, general body shape, which faces, hairstyles, etc. are available, and (in some cases) which armour and outfit appearances are used. If I understand correctly, all the OP is asking is why not allow players to choose those things separately.

I think the OP would have more success (both from the point of view of other people understanding what they're asking for, and from the point of view of ANet actually changing things) if they identified whichever cosmetic options they want for the opposite gender and requested that those options should be made unisex. I believe this has already happened for charr horns, which were originally gender-locked, and were made unisex quite recently.

I would really like an explanation of why sylvari have genders, though...

[Batel.9206]

@Tommo Chocolate.5870 said:I would really like an explanation of why sylvari have genders, though...

Because they are imitations of humans, presumably because of Ronan's influence or the Pale Tree wanting her children to look like humans.

[trixantea.1230]

Op is probably asking for a playable penguin race. Where males and females look alike, at least from a certain distance.You can still change the gender of your character whenever you want if you buy a Total makeover Kit $$$.

[derd.6413]

so the world look like a somewhat believable space instead of a 3D deviant art/tumblr OC server on VR chat

[SteepledHat.1345]

@Just a flesh wound.3589 said:No doubt the OP thinks the chars should be floating points of light, with weapons. After all, why have different species or genders when you can be a point of light.

In GW3 all the characters are balls of light, but you can buy body parts and skins in the gem store for 400 gems a pop. Are you GW marketing?

[Teratus.2859]

@"Staynair.8073" said:So this may seem stupid, but I was thinking "What is the purpose of gender in a computer game?" There is no difference in what the avatar can do based on its gender so why have it? You can still personalize the way the avatar looks without having to choose a gender.

Well the avatars are different, skeleton frames for one thing and then add in the different armor and clothing options which are designed around those frame differences.

I'm pretty sure I read before that when adding new armor and outfits they basically have to make the set combatible with each race's and genders frames seperately.essentially that means 2 different sets per race if I'm getting this right.

Removing defined gender as an option would likely be complicated since frame wise males and females are biologically and visibly different.. and making a custom system that allows you to drastically change the frame of your character to the extremes that would be neccessary would more than likely end up causing a lot of other problems, specially with several races and all of the games many armor sets.

If you've ever played Ark online you'll have probably noticed a lot of players running around with the most ridiculously deformed looking characters.. that's pretty much the kind of freedom that extreme character creation allows for and in all honesty I would hate to see people in Gw2 running around with stretch armstrong looking norns that look like they've got their heads buried in their shoulders lolIt would really hurt the immersion of the game imo if all our NPC allies are normal looking while our commander looks like a dwarf with an easter island head and arms that could punch Zhaitan in the jaw from Kryta lol

Gender Is just a very simple and realistic way to deal with this issue while also giving players a lot of freedom to design their character however they want to.

I don't know if there are technical limitations involved but what you said about choosing a voice is actually something I could get behind.Granted it would have to be limited in Gw2 since there is only one male and female voice option per race but I see no reason why running around with a male character that has the female voice option for it's race and vice versa would be a problem..Unless the mouth animations are specifically tied to the voice acting of the gender (I don't know if they are) then it could probably be done.

Overall though gender is important to add a certain neccessary level of customization.. If there were no genders in games I'd expect most people would simply not invest in their characters at all.. specially if their only options were a body type so drastically different they cannot relate with it.It's much easier to go with male and female then provide as many options as possible without overcomplicating things.Some people can spend literally hours on a character creation screen trying to get that perfect avatar.. trust me I know from experience XD

[Rpgtabbycat.5869]

I suppose Sylvari could get away with not having binary sexes considering they are all born from the same tree. So you could do no gender there. But I think, for the majority of players, it would be difficult to personalize something that isn't relatable.

[Cynder.2509]

insert triggered feminist meme hereAlright, jokes aside. There are some androgyne options for characters but they're just not humanoid races. If you want a character like that try out making a charr or an asura. It works perfectly with these two races. As a ftm trans dude myself it's enough that I can pick the male option even if I've made like two charr and one asura being "nonbinary" with using the female base model. (Mostly because I like some fur patterns of the female charr model that males don't have and the option to not always make a bulky charr. For asura however it was because of the face options because most male asura faces are ugly as hell and make the character look old instead of young)

[lezbefriends.7516]

To claim that you can't make your character gender neutral is false. Gender is distinct from sex; it's the latter that you have to choose from.

[coso.9173]

these are some of the most defensive and pasive agressive replies I've seen around in a good while. I think he clarified it later on, and his point is a good one, for future games. not gw2 since the character creation system is already done and hardly will be overhauled.

[Talindra.4958]

I want to be able to pick the gender for my character. No objection to game to include gender free character. But I want to be able to pick gender for my character :)

[Amaranthe.3578]

@Just a flesh wound.3589 said:

@"Aktium.9506" said:because females have two xx chromosomes and males have one x chromosome and one y chromosome in the real world

Sort of

While XY males and XX females are most common there are people withXXYXXXXYYXXXYXXXXX only, no additional X or YIn addition there are XX females and XX males

Plus XY males who are outwardly female, raised as female and may not be diagnosed until puberty.

Do you realize just how rare these mutations are?They are so rare that they are negligible in the big picture.

[Just a flesh wound.3589]

@Amaranthe.3578 said:

@Just a flesh wound.3589 said:

@"Aktium.9506" said:because females have two xx chromosomes and males have one x chromosome and one y chromosome in the real world

Sort of

While XY males and XX females are most common there are people withXXYXXXXYYXXXYXXXXX only, no additional X or YIn addition there are XX females and XX males

Plus XY males who are outwardly female, raised as female and may not be diagnosed until puberty.

Do you realize just how rare these mutations are?They are so rare that they are negligible in the big picture.

Actually, not that uncommon

The most common sex chromosome aneuploidies are 45,X (Turner syndrome); 47,XXY (Klinefelter syndrome); 47,XYY (XYY syndrome); and 47,XXX, which have birth frequencies of approximately 1 in 2500, 1 in 500 to 1 in 1000, 1 in 850 to 1 in 3000, and 1 in 1000, respectively

With a world population of 7.6 billion, a rate of one in 1000 births means that 7,600,000 people have that mutation. All 4 together is around 30 million. Putting it in city terms. A city of 30,000 would have around 120 people with one of those 4.

So yes it’s rare but 1 out of ~250 people (4 out of ~1000 having one of the top 4) isn’t all that rare.

[Staynair.8073]

Thanks to maddoctor and Teratus for their technical explanations. My original thought was purely technical in nature, but poorly worded. I should have included a lot more explanation of what I was wondering. It left too much room for misinterpretation. My original thought was that during character creation you pick race, gender, height, face... etc (don't remember exact order). After gender you are limited to things specifically programmed for that gender and race. Why couldn't you just do race, height, face.... and allow the user to pick out of all the gender options at each point. So if there are 5 male faces and 5 female faces, then when picking faces you would have the option to pick from all 10. You would still be able to create the character of your choice, just with more choices at each step.The answer would appear to be that the underlying way the character's have been created is the reason. There is a male and female skeleton/mesh that work differently to help give the feel of gender (it is the best explanation I have heard so far).

[Kumouta.4985]

i'm not a fan of this suggestion tbh

[Swagger.1459]

@Staynair.8073 said:Thanks to maddoctor and Teratus for their technical explanations. My original thought was purely technical in nature, but poorly worded. I should have included a lot more explanation of what I was wondering. It left too much room for misinterpretation. My original thought was that during character creation you pick race, gender, height, face... etc (don't remember exact order). After gender you are limited to things specifically programmed for that gender and race. Why couldn't you just do race, height, face.... and allow the user to pick out of all the gender options at each point. So if there are 5 male faces and 5 female faces, then when picking faces you would have the option to pick from all 10. You would still be able to create the character of your choice, just with more choices at each step.The answer would appear to be that the underlying way the character's have been created is the reason. There is a male and female skeleton/mesh that work differently to help give the feel of gender (it is the best explanation I have heard so far).

You could have avoided a lot simply by editing your original post.

Your request doesn’t make sense for gw2. And I’m pretty sure every game has you select gender from the get go, but there are some that allow for more character creation options. Also, you are not factoring in armors into your equation...

Your thread would have best been served by asking for a more modern character creator, but I highly doubt that would happen at this point.

[Amaranthe.3578]

@Just a flesh wound.3589 said:

@Amaranthe.3578 said:

@Just a flesh wound.3589 said:

@"Aktium.9506" said:because females have two xx chromosomes and males have one x chromosome and one y chromosome in the real world

Sort of

While XY males and XX females are most common there are people withXXYXXXXYYXXXYXXXXX only, no additional X or YIn addition there are XX females and XX males

Plus XY males who are outwardly female, raised as female and may not be diagnosed until puberty.

Do you realize just how rare these mutations are?They are so rare that they are negligible in the big picture.

Actually, not that uncommon

The most common sex chromosome aneuploidies are 45,X (Turner syndrome); 47,XXY (Klinefelter syndrome); 47,XYY (XYY syndrome); and 47,XXX, which have birth frequencies of approximately 1 in 2500, 1 in 500 to 1 in 1000, 1 in 850 to 1 in 3000, and 1 in 1000, respectively

With a world population of 7.6 billion, a rate of one in 1000 births means that 7,600,000 people have that mutation. All 4 together is around 30 million. Putting it in city terms. A city of 30,000 would have around 120 people with one of those 4.

So yes it’s rare but 1 out of ~250 people (4 out of ~1000 having one of the top 4) isn’t all that rare.

1 out of 250 is less tha. 0.5 percent...its extremely rare.