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Rune of Sanctuary & Abrasive Grit

Hey all,

I wanted to talk to you about Rune of Sanctuary and Abrasive Grit.

Firstly, the interaction between those two was ridiculous. Yes, there are other strong interactions with the rune, but they are not OMGWTF OP interactions.

This is what we went through when we were figuring out how to fix it on Tuesday:

1) We immediately thought about putting an internal cooldown (ICD) on the rune. After all, the change to the rune is what enabled this unwanted behavior. This would have been the easiest and fastest fix. Then, we went on to look at what effects that change would have had on the rune and everyone using it. In particular, we looked at a worst-case scenario that would have happened as a result:

Player A has Rune of Sanctuary and starts using their strong heal ability.
Player B heals them for some small amount, causing the rune to go on ICD.
Player A completes their strong heal and loses out on the effect of the rune.
Player A is frustrated or angry that player B screwed something up for them.

This situation goes against one of our design philosophies for Guild Wars 2: Seeing another player should not be frustrating.

2) We then spent some time looking at and investigating lifesteal interaction. We quickly reached the conclusion that lifesteal wasn’t what was causing the issue to blow out. It was merely contributing to the ease of causing the interaction. Changing it so that lifesteal wouldn’t trigger the rune barrier gain wouldn’t fix the issue because there are plenty of other ways to gain rapid heals, whether it is your own sources (like life siphon) or external ones (like having a druid, medi engi, or other player/source healing you).

3) We further considered whether to have the rune grant only a barrier on heals over a particular size. This felt bad for a few reasons: It gets harder to read/trigger, it eliminates the lower-level interactions entirely, and it pushes the possible abuse case to be slightly harder, but not unreachable. This leaves it likely to happen again, just a little later - after builds are developed that are capable of getting fast heals just over the minimum value.

Given those paths and their consequences we chose to put an ICD on the trait while at the same time increasing its might stacks and duration. This was the best, most surgical option available to us on this timeline.

I hope this will help you see that we’re right there with you, looking to resolve this issue as quickly and smoothly as possible. That is not to say that the solution was the perfect one, but when there is a live issue causing immediate problems we must address it as soon as possible.

We’re aware of the current possibility to trigger Abrasive Grit’s ICD from someone else, but that should be fixed a bit later on.

With that, and the addition of ICD to Abrasive Grit, you’ll have control over when that ICD is triggered because it is based on barriers you grant. This keeps the rune legible and easy to understand in the meantime. Abrasive Grit remains usable, though it lost a bit of its burst-condition-cleansing potential, and gained some might uptime. We’ll be keeping an eye on it and watching for reasonable options that promote healthier, skillful gameplay for everyone.

Thanks for reading,
~Irenio

Irenio 'Kui'
GW2 Systems

Tagged:
<13

Comments

  • Apokriphos.7042Apokriphos.7042 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 16, 2018

    Dear Irenio,

    Will you and the other developers be looking at the impact of this rune while ressing?
    Will you also be looking at the impact of other rune sets that may be overpowered without a cooldown such as superior rune of torment?

    Thank you for the explanation

  • Is it mechanically possible to script so Abrasive Grit doesn't trigger off Runes of Sanctuary, regardless of lifesteal or external source?
    Tooltip ie. Cleanse 1 condition and gain 2 might when you use barrier skills

    Scourge already has strong condi cleanse options among their utility/skills and ICD only damaged a trait that's already underused prior to rune changes. Having Abrasive Grit not proccing off runes of sanctuary gives no significant advantage scourge has over other classes, while still empower scourge with the 20% bonus barrier from all source of healing.

    [RED] Crimson Sunspears...your small family guild since 2015.

  • Blocki.4931Blocki.4931 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Thanks for the explanation!

    Glad I was right in my assumptions (partly) :)

    And yes, the ressing needs to be looked at.

    I rather choose death.

  • @Apokriphos.7042 said:
    Dear Irenio,

    Will you and the other developers be looking at the impact of this rune while ressing?
    Will you also be looking at the impact of other rune sets that may be overpowered without a cooldown such as superior rune of torment?

    We've been looking at the impact of Rune of Sanctuary while ressing.
    We're going to keep watching them, including Rune of Torment, and adjusting runes as needed.

    Regarding this topic, any inspection on runes of speed?

    [RED] Crimson Sunspears...your small family guild since 2015.

  • perilisk.1874perilisk.1874 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Irenio CalmonHuang.2048 said:

    @perilisk.1874 said:
    Would it be possible to just have Abrasive Grit as a modifier on punishment and shade skills that triggers when those skills apply barrier?

    Not on this kind of timeline. We'd also need to discuss that further and test it for other potential consequences.

    Ok. Well, thank you for giving everyone some insight into how the balancing process is working for this.

  • Thanks for the Information.
    Just a Question: Did you think about having Abrasive Grit still some Burst Condi removal in having it remove 2-3 conditions instead of 1 now with the ICD?

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Just going to add, loving the explanation and interaction with the community!

    It's nice to have a small peak behind the thought process when balancing. Also great to hear that rune and sigils which might over-perform are being watched.

    Such fun times right now, I wonder where and how the meta will develop.

  • Thanks for responding but are you aware it is not only a nerf to burst condition clearing but also conditions cleared over time since you will naturally use barrier multiple times in 5 seconds. Aditionally you can nolonger time the trait for when you need it as it will proc for the might when you don't need condition clease and then is unuseable when you do. Since it is a nerf to all condition clear potential would you consider buffing nefarious favour, the f2 skill, back to 2 conditions cleared since it was supposed to be the condition clearing skill but was significantly nerfed even though it was not ever a problem?

  • I am glad for the explanation. But I expected it had something to do with the fact that the trait was a problem that would limit future plans for barrier.

  • While I will sit back and look at this..There is one thing to say and that is

    Thank you.. Thank you for coming out and explaining the reasoning behind this change.
    Like it or hate it.. I have for ages felt like such things are important for players - dev understanding over changes we may as a player can see or not.

    I hope in the future when such big changes happen, we get more communication like this. :)

    A City of Heroes never die... A City of Villains will never surrender... Neither City will be forgotten.

  • This makes perfect sense. Thanks, I'll share this in game!

  • So... The sanc rune is so op that you had to change how traits worked?

  • misterman.1530misterman.1530 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 16, 2018

    @Irenio CalmonHuang.2048 said:

    @perilisk.1874 said:
    Would it be possible to just have Abrasive Grit as a modifier on punishment and shade skills that triggers when those skills apply barrier?

    Not on this kind of timeline. We'd also need to discuss that further and test it for other potential consequences.

    @Apokriphos.7042 said:
    Dear Irenio,

    Will you and the other developers be looking at the impact of this rune while ressing?
    Will you also be looking at the impact of other rune sets that may be overpowered without a cooldown such as superior rune of torment?

    We've been looking at the impact of Rune of Sanctuary while ressing.
    We're going to keep watching them, including Rune of Torment, and adjusting runes as needed.

    Why is it that your first, and always your first, inclination/solution is to nerf Necros? We have no, absolutely no, speed, no stealth, no barrier, nothing. Deadeyes and SoulBeasts eat us for lunch since they cheesily pew pew outside our range and with way more speed. We had one simple role: Condi cleanse and boon stripping. Relatively useless, for the most part, outside of zergs in WvW. See a lot of Scourges in raids? See a lot of necros at all in raids? Because we don't

  • @Fuyunet.8497 said:
    So... The sanc rune is so op that you had to change how traits worked?

    Expect on other professions it isn't OP.

    A City of Heroes never die... A City of Villains will never surrender... Neither City will be forgotten.

  • tyu.9470tyu.9470 Member ✭✭

    Irenio,

    Is it intentional that the rune doesn't work with thief's self-heal trait "Invigorating Precision"? Or a simple bug that you'll fix in the future?

  • @HardRider.2980 said:
    Expect on other professions it isn't OP.

    Except it is in wvw zerg fights.

  • @Sigmoid.7082 said:
    You keep weakneing scourges ability to support on what you tooted as a support spec. So many of the changes you have made are driving scourge , in competitive game modes, to be the supportee not the supporter because it cannot fend for itself.

    Returned the double cleanse of f2 to compensate for the loss of condi cleanse which you acknowledged. A tiny increase in actual might uptime , most likely the most common boon in the game, is no trade at all.

    Also if you guys do not address a similar interaction between rune of evasion, woven stride and cleansing water at some point in the future it will be disappointing.

    The likelihood is nothing will be done to really improve the matter and reaper will be nerfed because " it had one of the highest at and win rates last season". Further worsening the situation.

    The day you give the necromancer community a build it a spec that does not so incredibly heavily rely on being supported by someone else, like EVERY OTHER CLASS IN THE GAME, is the day you will gain their respect.

    I totally agree with this post. Support was supposed to be an option for scourge, but it has been weakened and nerfed beyond reason so that it isn't a good option compared to most other classes. In previous wvw nerfs, the CD for shades went from 10s to 30s, which was a bit extreme - that almost seemed like a complete over-reaction to player complaints. We would like to see more data-driven incremental changes instead of nerfing things with a sledge-hammer. PLEASE MAKE SUPPORT SCOURGE GREAT AGAIN!

    Also, kudos to providing an explanation of the current situation and your basic reasoning. Communication like this is HUGE in terms of eliminating player frustration. We may not agree with everything, but at least we understand what is going on. Good to know this issue is not done, yet.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @HardRider.2980 said:

    @Fuyunet.8497 said:
    So... The sanc rune is so op that you had to change how traits worked?

    Expect on other professions it isn't OP.

    First, it isn't entirely true. Second, Abrasive Grit wasn't OP with other runes.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Asur.9178Asur.9178 Member ✭✭✭

    While on the topic of runes and sigils; why were some runes and sigils completely ignored on this changes. Was it simply an overlook?

    For example, under no circumstances are Deadeye runes better or unique enough to be slotted...not even a niche use - Scholar and Ogre are simply better in every single situation.

  • moonboi.1764moonboi.1764 Member ✭✭✭

    @shippage.1983 said:

    This situation goes against one of our design philosophies for Guild Wars 2: Seeing another player should not be frustrating.

    Mesmers lol

    Can I just point out weaver and evasion runes. I would like to advise everyone to give it a go. kitten near unkillable. You delete everything.

  • Pterikdactyl.7630Pterikdactyl.7630 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 16, 2018

    @Irenio CalmonHuang.2048

    I'd like to point you to a suggestion by @Tsan.6431 as I think it is a good solution that would revitalize the original strength of Abrasive Grit without the broken interaction with Sanc runes.

    Abrasive Grit:
    Granting an ally a barrier over the threshold removes conditions affecting them and grants might.

    • 3 Might (8s): 90 Power, 90 Condition Damage
    • Conditions Removed: 1
    • Threshold: 700

    I adjusted the threshold from 1000, their original idea, but the thought behind it is that it would require larger heals in order to proc the trait via Sanc runes (each heal would be counted individually except for pulsing heals). With the threshold at 700, it would require a 3.5k heal in order to proc AG. It limits Necro's ability to self-proc this to Transfusion (with some HP investment), Dagger 2, and their actual heal skill, but still allows for interaction from healers. I think this is fair, though, as there shouldn't be a ton of trait interaction since Sanctuary Runes are fine without the AG interaction. The threshold could of course be adjusted, but I personally think this is a very healthy solution to this whole rune debacle.

  • Dahkeus.8243Dahkeus.8243 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Awesome post @Irenio CalmonHuang.2048 . Thank you for taking the time to explain the reasoning behind the change. This makes a lot of sense.

  • perilisk.1874perilisk.1874 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Pterikdactyl.7630 said:
    @Irenio CalmonHuang.2048

    I'd like to point you to a suggestion by @Tsan.6431 as I think it is a good solution that would revitalize the original strength of Abrasive Grit without the broken interaction with Sanc runes.

    Abrasive Grit:
    Granting an ally a barrier over the threshold removes conditions affecting them and grants might.

    • 3 Might (8s): 90 Power, 90 Condition Damage
    • Conditions Removed: 1
    • Threshold: 700

    I adjusted the threshold from 1000, their original idea, but the thought behind it is that it would require larger heals in order to proc the trait via Sanc runes (each heal would be counted individually except for pulsing heals). With the threshold at 700, it would require a 3.5k heal in order to proc AG. It limits Necro's ability to self-proc this to Transfusion (with some HP investment), Dagger 2, and their actual heal skill, but still allows for interaction from healers. I think this is fair, though, as there shouldn't be a ton of trait interaction since Sanctuary Runes are fine without the AG interaction. The threshold could of course be adjusted, but I personally think this is a very healthy solution to this whole rune debacle.

    OP covers this -- look at item 3. Among other things, this would break the trait for downleveled scourges.

  • @Fuyunet.8497 said:

    @HardRider.2980 said:
    Expect on other professions it isn't OP.

    Except it is in wvw zerg fights.

    Is this more of a "Mode split issue" or is it OP on other professions throughout the different modes?

    A City of Heroes never die... A City of Villains will never surrender... Neither City will be forgotten.

  • perilisk.1874perilisk.1874 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @HardRider.2980 said:

    @Fuyunet.8497 said:

    @HardRider.2980 said:
    Expect on other professions it isn't OP.

    Except it is in wvw zerg fights.

    Is this more of a "Mode split issue" or is it OP on other professions throughout the different modes?

    I'm guessing that removing conditions and proccing multiple might stacks with basically every hit, possibly several times a second, might be considered a little OP in any mode.

  • Pterikdactyl.7630Pterikdactyl.7630 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @perilisk.1874 said:

    @Pterikdactyl.7630 said:
    @Irenio CalmonHuang.2048

    I'd like to point you to a suggestion by @Tsan.6431 as I think it is a good solution that would revitalize the original strength of Abrasive Grit without the broken interaction with Sanc runes.

    Abrasive Grit:
    Granting an ally a barrier over the threshold removes conditions affecting them and grants might.

    • 3 Might (8s): 90 Power, 90 Condition Damage
    • Conditions Removed: 1
    • Threshold: 700

    I adjusted the threshold from 1000, their original idea, but the thought behind it is that it would require larger heals in order to proc the trait via Sanc runes (each heal would be counted individually except for pulsing heals). With the threshold at 700, it would require a 3.5k heal in order to proc AG. It limits Necro's ability to self-proc this to Transfusion (with some HP investment), Dagger 2, and their actual heal skill, but still allows for interaction from healers. I think this is fair, though, as there shouldn't be a ton of trait interaction since Sanctuary Runes are fine without the AG interaction. The threshold could of course be adjusted, but I personally think this is a very healthy solution to this whole rune debacle.

    OP covers this -- look at item 3. Among other things, this would break the trait for downleveled scourges.

    This wouldn't be a change to the runes, it would be a change to Abrasive Grit, which is only accessible at level 80 since it is an e-spec.

  • perilisk.1874perilisk.1874 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 16, 2018

    @Pterikdactyl.7630 said:

    @perilisk.1874 said:

    @Pterikdactyl.7630 said:
    @Irenio CalmonHuang.2048

    I'd like to point you to a suggestion by @Tsan.6431 as I think it is a good solution that would revitalize the original strength of Abrasive Grit without the broken interaction with Sanc runes.

    Abrasive Grit:
    Granting an ally a barrier over the threshold removes conditions affecting them and grants might.

    • 3 Might (8s): 90 Power, 90 Condition Damage
    • Conditions Removed: 1
    • Threshold: 700

    I adjusted the threshold from 1000, their original idea, but the thought behind it is that it would require larger heals in order to proc the trait via Sanc runes (each heal would be counted individually except for pulsing heals). With the threshold at 700, it would require a 3.5k heal in order to proc AG. It limits Necro's ability to self-proc this to Transfusion (with some HP investment), Dagger 2, and their actual heal skill, but still allows for interaction from healers. I think this is fair, though, as there shouldn't be a ton of trait interaction since Sanctuary Runes are fine without the AG interaction. The threshold could of course be adjusted, but I personally think this is a very healthy solution to this whole rune debacle.

    OP covers this -- look at item 3. Among other things, this would break the trait for downleveled scourges.

    This wouldn't be a change to the runes, it would be a change to Abrasive Grit, which is only accessible at level 80 since it is an e-spec.

    You're right, I misread OP -- it is on the rune, not the trait.

    But still, in core Tyria, you can be a sub-level-80 scourge. Don't get me wrong, a threshold was my initial thought for a fix, and I thought the same way as you -- leveling characters aren't an issue because it's an e-spec. But I totally forgot about downleveling.

  • @Fuyunet.8497 said:
    So... The sanc rune is so op that you had to change how traits worked?

    This. This right here in a nutshell. You mess up a rune, you nerf a trait. That's some special thinking right there.

  • Pterikdactyl.7630Pterikdactyl.7630 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @perilisk.1874 said:

    @Pterikdactyl.7630 said:

    @perilisk.1874 said:

    @Pterikdactyl.7630 said:
    @Irenio CalmonHuang.2048

    I'd like to point you to a suggestion by @Tsan.6431 as I think it is a good solution that would revitalize the original strength of Abrasive Grit without the broken interaction with Sanc runes.

    Abrasive Grit:
    Granting an ally a barrier over the threshold removes conditions affecting them and grants might.

    • 3 Might (8s): 90 Power, 90 Condition Damage
    • Conditions Removed: 1
    • Threshold: 700

    I adjusted the threshold from 1000, their original idea, but the thought behind it is that it would require larger heals in order to proc the trait via Sanc runes (each heal would be counted individually except for pulsing heals). With the threshold at 700, it would require a 3.5k heal in order to proc AG. It limits Necro's ability to self-proc this to Transfusion (with some HP investment), Dagger 2, and their actual heal skill, but still allows for interaction from healers. I think this is fair, though, as there shouldn't be a ton of trait interaction since Sanctuary Runes are fine without the AG interaction. The threshold could of course be adjusted, but I personally think this is a very healthy solution to this whole rune debacle.

    OP covers this -- look at item 3. Among other things, this would break the trait for downleveled scourges.

    This wouldn't be a change to the runes, it would be a change to Abrasive Grit, which is only accessible at level 80 since it is an e-spec.

    You're right, I misread OP -- it is on the rune, not the trait.

    But still, in core Tyria, you can be a sub-level-80 scourge. Don't get me wrong, a threshold was my initial thought for a fix, and I thought the same way as you -- leveling characters aren't an issue because it's an e-spec. But I totally forgot about downleveling.

    Meh I dunno, I don't think that should really be a factor, but that's my bias saying downleveled open world content shouldn't dictate anything. Lots of stuff doesn't downlevel well.

  • Why doesn't virtue of resolve passive trigger the effect?

  • thrag.9740thrag.9740 Member ✭✭✭

    @Irenio CalmonHuang.2048 said:
    This situation goes against one of our design philosophies for Guild Wars 2: Seeing another player should not be frustrating.

    I know this is off topic, but literally every time I read this statement, or see an old video of a dev making the same statement I think about social awkwardness in fractals. Your absolutely right that players should be happy to see each other, so lets kill social awkwardness already.

  • Really you had to nerf a form of condi clear for scourge, you could of atleast limited it to PvP and WvW only but dang even PvE thats a bit far of a stretch and an over reach at that, the whole lets nerf necro even though it didn't really need nerfed makes no sense, the trait was not broken or over powered in its previous state as it was easily countered with the power build counter part, heck even a condi reaper was able to out weigh that scourge trait, so putting a Cooldown on it only really hurt scourges group play and solo combat play.

    ~Find your destiny.

  • Gambit.9501Gambit.9501 Member ✭✭
    edited November 16, 2018

    Okay, that's cool, and understandable. But now here's a better idea:

    (6): Every 3 seconds, you gain a barrier with health equal to 20% of all healing you received within the past 3 seconds.

    So basically, instead of having constant barrier applications that can overexploit Abrasive Grit, the game stores a percentage of all healing you received over a brief duration, then gives its worth in barrier to you in 3-second packages. You gain your defense, Abrasive Grit is normalized, and everybody's happy.

  • TexZero.7910TexZero.7910 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Irenio CalmonHuang.2048 said:
    We’ll be keeping an eye on it and watching for reasonable options that promote healthier, skillful gameplay for everyone.

    If you wanted healthier gameplay this rune would have a more meaningful trigger that isn't "healing". Also, you'd put an ICD on it to not promote "Barrier Spamming".
    Having a rune like this isn't healthy as it promotes bad gameplay and punishing a class for bad design isn't right on any levels.

  • Eramonster.2718Eramonster.2718 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 16, 2018

    (6): Every 3 seconds, you gain a barrier with health equal to 20% of all healing you received within the past 3 seconds.

    Not sure about this one. Players will gain a bigger chunk of shield every 3 seconds. This will require the opponent to break through the barrier before the next possible tick (refreshing a new barrier) 3 seconds later. Atm you can still hurt through the barrier if the attack is strong enough, a chance for a decisive final blow.

    We’re aware of the current possibility to trigger Abrasive Grit’s ICD from someone else, but that should be fixed a bit later on.

    Not sure if it's referring to Scourge stacking/blobbing. Popcorn ready for the fix.

  • tyu.9470tyu.9470 Member ✭✭
    edited November 16, 2018

    @Irenio CalmonHuang.2048

    Is it intentional that the rune doesn't work with thief's self-heal trait "Invigorating Precision"? Or a simple bug that you'll fix in the future?