Rune of Tormenting

[Cyninja.2954]

@apharma.3741 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@apharma.3741 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:Let me put this in a perspective that most people will understand:

If this Rune remains overpowered there will be 1 of 2 approaches taken to remedy the situation (or both):

A. the rune gets nerfed or reworked

B. mirage gets nerfed because we all know how well people separate class and rune balance

You now get to chose which course of action you are more in favor of. For all I care, remove the rune from the game.

Awwww you think only one of those will happen. We both know it'll be both given how many people who have devs ears hate mesmer :smile:

Yeah, here was me hoping we could have nice things :s

In all seriousness, I wouldn't jump on any bandwagon of OP rune an sigil synergy right now and not expect changes.

Want to steamroll people with OP setups? Fine go for it (I personally don't but am not one to tell people not to do everything possible to win). Don't expect people to feel sorry though when you are out of gold when balance hits. It's the price you pay for such fun.

That said, at the very least Arenanet managed to make people try stuff and experiment with runes and sigils again. Fun times, even if it will only last until a new meta is formed. Everyone try to enjoy this period of "what should I try next?" uncertainty.

Yeah I had 6 from a long time ago that I tested with legendary armour. Made a bit of money from crafting and selling runes of tormenting when the margin was much higher. To be honest I miss traveller runes most of the time, that +25% movement speed makes a big difference to getting away and not getting away when everyone and their mum has swiftness coming out of their eyeballs.

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:The Rune fine with the changes. a 13 stack torment application is still only a 2200 heal. I get more on my warrior with a shout and have 6 shouts I can use right after the other. If you are consitently getting it with 13 torment stacks every dodge or shatter, you have more to worry about then whether it healed uyp the enemy by 2k.

and you did the math for more than just single target? Say when shattering and hitting more than 1 target (when 1v2 or 1v3 fighting in WvW or Spvp)?

Warrior shouts do not scale up according to enemy last time I checked, at least not the healing component. That is not even getting into the issues that this heal is on your main offensive and defensive ability as mirage, your dodge.

Yes it does scale better but condi mesmer effectiveness goes down when fighting 1v3 and higher. 1v2 might be the sweet spot but 1v3 and higher I doubt it will be an issue other than this mesmer heals a lot more just it explodes because sustained damage is bonkers from roamers like holo, soulbeast, rev, warrior and condition output of a supported scourge (yes you see this roaming) will annihilate you.

That assumes perfect or good play on the other players side as well as a good class match-up to beat mirage.

Those classes already have an easy fight against mirage, saying they will still beat mirage even with a strong rune doesn't help the issue. Yet the mirage cry train remains strong. I'm just not seeing how this rune in its overpowered state will help this.

Then again, let's wait and see. Arenanet has the rune on its watch list, let's hope they balance the rune and not the class (hello Abrasive Grit change).

[apharma.3741]

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@apharma.3741 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@apharma.3741 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:Let me put this in a perspective that most people will understand:

If this Rune remains overpowered there will be 1 of 2 approaches taken to remedy the situation (or both):

A. the rune gets nerfed or reworked

B. mirage gets nerfed because we all know how well people separate class and rune balance

You now get to chose which course of action you are more in favor of. For all I care, remove the rune from the game.

Awwww you think only one of those will happen. We both know it'll be both given how many people who have devs ears hate mesmer :smile:

Yeah, here was me hoping we could have nice things :s

In all seriousness, I wouldn't jump on any bandwagon of OP rune an sigil synergy right now and not expect changes.

Want to steamroll people with OP setups? Fine go for it (I personally don't but am not one to tell people not to do everything possible to win). Don't expect people to feel sorry though when you are out of gold when balance hits. It's the price you pay for such fun.

That said, at the very least Arenanet managed to make people try stuff and experiment with runes and sigils again. Fun times, even if it will only last until a new meta is formed. Everyone try to enjoy this period of "what should I try next?" uncertainty.

Yeah I had 6 from a long time ago that I tested with legendary armour. Made a bit of money from crafting and selling runes of tormenting when the margin was much higher. To be honest I miss traveller runes most of the time, that +25% movement speed makes a big difference to getting away and not getting away when everyone and their mum has swiftness coming out of their eyeballs.

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:The Rune fine with the changes. a 13 stack torment application is still only a 2200 heal. I get more on my warrior with a shout and have 6 shouts I can use right after the other. If you are consitently getting it with 13 torment stacks every dodge or shatter, you have more to worry about then whether it healed uyp the enemy by 2k.

and you did the math for more than just single target? Say when shattering and hitting more than 1 target (when 1v2 or 1v3 fighting in WvW or Spvp)?

Warrior shouts do not scale up according to enemy last time I checked, at least not the healing component. That is not even getting into the issues that this heal is on your main offensive and defensive ability as mirage, your dodge.

Yes it does scale better but condi mesmer effectiveness goes down when fighting 1v3 and higher. 1v2 might be the sweet spot but 1v3 and higher I doubt it will be an issue other than this mesmer heals a lot more just it explodes because sustained damage is bonkers from roamers like holo, soulbeast, rev, warrior and condition output of a supported scourge (yes you see this roaming) will annihilate you.

That assumes perfect or good play on the other players side as well as a good class match-up to beat mirage.

Those classes already have an easy fight against mirage, saying they will still beat mirage even with a strong rune doesn't help the issue. Yet the mirage cry train remains strong. I'm just not seeing how this rune in its overpowered state will help this.

Then again, let's wait and see. Arenanet has the rune on its watch list, let's hope they balance the rune and not the class (hello Abrasive Grit change).

Yeah I understand what you're saying. People will always cry about mesmer, the well known really good players are largely gone and the ones that are left don't quite have the same presence to be able to sway the majority of bad players that it is them that need to improve.

We'll see how it goes, I really want to test it on condition rev tbh but I don't have the TB stats for it, I guess I could go dire and us TB accessories....

[babazhook.6805]

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:The Rune fine with the changes. a 13 stack torment application is still only a 2200 heal. I get more on my warrior with a shout and have 6 shouts I can use right after the other. If you are consitently getting it with 13 torment stacks every dodge or shatter, you have more to worry about then whether it healed uyp the enemy by 2k.

and you did the math for more than just single target? Say when shattering and hitting more than 1 target (when 1v2 or 1v3 fighting in WvW or Spvp)?

Warrior shouts do not scale up according to enemy last time I checked, at least not the healing component. That is not even getting into the issues that this heal is on your main offensive and defensive ability as mirage, your dodge.

Warriors shouts heal all allies (up to 5) around you. I can heal my allies for 14000 health sum totl PLUSgive 5 of them all 100+ endurance for more dodges.

You do not measure the balance of a rune based upon what it might do in a ZERG fight. There any manner of skills and abilities that see there effects multiplied exponentially in a zerg fight. While I do not participate in many Zerg fights they are NOT dominated by Mesmers nor will they be with this rune. The mesmer might be able to save himself for a period of time but once allies in the zerg fall mesmer will have to run or die.

[FaboBabo.3581]

@babazhook.6805 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:The Rune fine with the changes. a 13 stack torment application is still only a 2200 heal. I get more on my warrior with a shout and have 6 shouts I can use right after the other. If you are consitently getting it with 13 torment stacks every dodge or shatter, you have more to worry about then whether it healed uyp the enemy by 2k.

and you did the math for more than just single target? Say when shattering and hitting more than 1 target (when 1v2 or 1v3 fighting in WvW or Spvp)?

Warrior shouts do not scale up according to enemy last time I checked, at least not the healing component. That is not even getting into the issues that this heal is on your main offensive and defensive ability as mirage, your dodge.

Warriors shouts heal all allies (up to 5) around you. I can heal my allies for 14000 health sum totl PLUSgive 5 of them all 100+ endurance for more dodges.

You do not measure the balance of a rune based upon what it might do in a ZERG fight. There any manner of skills and abilities that see there effects multiplied exponentially in a zerg fight. While I do not participate in many Zerg fights they are NOT dominated by Mesmers nor will they be with this rune. The mesmer might be able to save himself for a period of time but once allies in the zerg fall mesmer will have to run or die.

Its not about zerging but outnumbered roaming.

Ur warrior vs 1 or 4 is meaningless for the heal Value. Rune of torment vs 1 or 4 is a big difference.

[babazhook.6805]

@FaboBabo.3581 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:The Rune fine with the changes. a 13 stack torment application is still only a 2200 heal. I get more on my warrior with a shout and have 6 shouts I can use right after the other. If you are consitently getting it with 13 torment stacks every dodge or shatter, you have more to worry about then whether it healed uyp the enemy by 2k.

and you did the math for more than just single target? Say when shattering and hitting more than 1 target (when 1v2 or 1v3 fighting in WvW or Spvp)?

Warrior shouts do not scale up according to enemy last time I checked, at least not the healing component. That is not even getting into the issues that this heal is on your main offensive and defensive ability as mirage, your dodge.

Warriors shouts heal all allies (up to 5) around you. I can heal my allies for 14000 health sum totl PLUSgive 5 of them all 100+ endurance for more dodges.

You do not measure the balance of a rune based upon what it might do in a ZERG fight. There any manner of skills and abilities that see there effects multiplied exponentially in a zerg fight. While I do not participate in many Zerg fights they are NOT dominated by Mesmers nor will they be with this rune. The mesmer might be able to save himself for a period of time but once allies in the zerg fall mesmer will have to run or die.

Its not about zerging but outnumbered roaming.

Ur warrior vs 1 or 4 is meaningless for the heal Value. Rune of torment vs 1 or 4 is a big difference.

Predicated on that Mesmer being able to apply toment stacks at will to 4 different players. Quite frankly if 4 players facing one mesmer are always hit by torment stacks each time that mesmser tries and apply them, they have learn to play issues. If a mesmer is able to apply his full potential of torment stacks to 4 different players at will hE ptobably does not need those heals to beat them.

Again the stacks have to be APPLIED. If one of those 4 a DE at range with rifle, a second a ranger at range using a longbow, the third a warrior in close using resistance and the fourth a scourge applying his shades how many torment stacks is that mesmer able to APPLY? Don't base a runes potentcy on 4 peoples standing in a group saying "hit me". A staff Daredevil can use IP and hit 5 guys standing in a group saying hit me too and generate a whole lot of healing if they just stand and take it.

[FaboBabo.3581]

@babazhook.6805 said:

@FaboBabo.3581 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:The Rune fine with the changes. a 13 stack torment application is still only a 2200 heal. I get more on my warrior with a shout and have 6 shouts I can use right after the other. If you are consitently getting it with 13 torment stacks every dodge or shatter, you have more to worry about then whether it healed uyp the enemy by 2k.

and you did the math for more than just single target? Say when shattering and hitting more than 1 target (when 1v2 or 1v3 fighting in WvW or Spvp)?

Warrior shouts do not scale up according to enemy last time I checked, at least not the healing component. That is not even getting into the issues that this heal is on your main offensive and defensive ability as mirage, your dodge.

Warriors shouts heal all allies (up to 5) around you. I can heal my allies for 14000 health sum totl PLUSgive 5 of them all 100+ endurance for more dodges.

You do not measure the balance of a rune based upon what it might do in a ZERG fight. There any manner of skills and abilities that see there effects multiplied exponentially in a zerg fight. While I do not participate in many Zerg fights they are NOT dominated by Mesmers nor will they be with this rune. The mesmer might be able to save himself for a period of time but once allies in the zerg fall mesmer will have to run or die.

Its not about zerging but outnumbered roaming.

Ur warrior vs 1 or 4 is meaningless for the heal Value. Rune of torment vs 1 or 4 is a big difference.

Predicated on that Mesmer being able to apply toment stacks at will to 4 different players. Quite frankly if 4 players facing one mesmer are always hit by torment stacks each time that mesmser tries and apply them, they have learn to play issues. If a mesmer is able to apply his full potential of torment stacks to 4 different players at will hE ptobably does not need those heals to beat them.

Again the stacks have to be APPLIED. If one of those 4 a DE at range with rifle, a second a ranger at range using a longbow, the third a warrior in close using resistance and the fourth a scourge applying his shades how many torment stacks is that mesmer able to APPLY? Don't base a runes potentcy on 4 peoples standing in a group saying "hit me". A staff Daredevil can use IP and hit 5 guys standing in a group saying hit me too and generate a whole lot of healing if they just stand and take it.

Now ; how many houres did u play Mirage with Torment Runes in WvW in the last 24-36 houres?

[Cyninja.2954]

@babazhook.6805 said:

@FaboBabo.3581 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:The Rune fine with the changes. a 13 stack torment application is still only a 2200 heal. I get more on my warrior with a shout and have 6 shouts I can use right after the other. If you are consitently getting it with 13 torment stacks every dodge or shatter, you have more to worry about then whether it healed uyp the enemy by 2k.

and you did the math for more than just single target? Say when shattering and hitting more than 1 target (when 1v2 or 1v3 fighting in WvW or Spvp)?

Warrior shouts do not scale up according to enemy last time I checked, at least not the healing component. That is not even getting into the issues that this heal is on your main offensive and defensive ability as mirage, your dodge.

Warriors shouts heal all allies (up to 5) around you. I can heal my allies for 14000 health sum totl PLUSgive 5 of them all 100+ endurance for more dodges.

You do not measure the balance of a rune based upon what it might do in a ZERG fight. There any manner of skills and abilities that see there effects multiplied exponentially in a zerg fight. While I do not participate in many Zerg fights they are NOT dominated by Mesmers nor will they be with this rune. The mesmer might be able to save himself for a period of time but once allies in the zerg fall mesmer will have to run or die.

Its not about zerging but outnumbered roaming.

Ur warrior vs 1 or 4 is meaningless for the heal Value. Rune of torment vs 1 or 4 is a big difference.

Predicated on that Mesmer being able to apply toment stacks at will to 4 different players. Quite frankly if 4 players facing one mesmer are always hit by torment stacks each time that mesmser tries and apply them, they have learn to play issues. If a mesmer is able to apply his full potential of torment stacks to 4 different players at will hE ptobably does not need those heals to beat them.

Again the stacks have to be APPLIED. If one of those 4 a DE at range with rifle, a second a ranger at range using a longbow, the third a warrior in close using resistance and the fourth a scourge applying his shades how many torment stacks is that mesmer able to APPLY? Don't base a runes potentcy on 4 peoples standing in a group saying "hit me". A staff Daredevil can use IP and hit 5 guys standing in a group saying hit me too and generate a whole lot of healing if they just stand and take it.

All nice and dandy theory, but you are tailor cutting opponents to your liking. Most engagements, especially against a class with stealth available, do not happen at 1,500 range nor do most classes fight at that range.

Heal on torment application is the next issue, it provides its benefits upfront where as most condition counter-play happens as reaction via cleanses (in mirage case you need to survive the burst). Having a heal trigger on application force you to dodge or burn cds early which is a very bad idea against mirage.

Anyway, as I said let's wait and see. I'm pretty sure we will see changes, hopefully to the rune and not the class.

[apharma.3741]

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:

@FaboBabo.3581 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:The Rune fine with the changes. a 13 stack torment application is still only a 2200 heal. I get more on my warrior with a shout and have 6 shouts I can use right after the other. If you are consitently getting it with 13 torment stacks every dodge or shatter, you have more to worry about then whether it healed uyp the enemy by 2k.

and you did the math for more than just single target? Say when shattering and hitting more than 1 target (when 1v2 or 1v3 fighting in WvW or Spvp)?

Warrior shouts do not scale up according to enemy last time I checked, at least not the healing component. That is not even getting into the issues that this heal is on your main offensive and defensive ability as mirage, your dodge.

Warriors shouts heal all allies (up to 5) around you. I can heal my allies for 14000 health sum totl PLUSgive 5 of them all 100+ endurance for more dodges.

You do not measure the balance of a rune based upon what it might do in a ZERG fight. There any manner of skills and abilities that see there effects multiplied exponentially in a zerg fight. While I do not participate in many Zerg fights they are NOT dominated by Mesmers nor will they be with this rune. The mesmer might be able to save himself for a period of time but once allies in the zerg fall mesmer will have to run or die.

Its not about zerging but outnumbered roaming.

Ur warrior vs 1 or 4 is meaningless for the heal Value. Rune of torment vs 1 or 4 is a big difference.

Predicated on that Mesmer being able to apply toment stacks at will to 4 different players. Quite frankly if 4 players facing one mesmer are always hit by torment stacks each time that mesmser tries and apply them, they have learn to play issues. If a mesmer is able to apply his full potential of torment stacks to 4 different players at will hE ptobably does not need those heals to beat them.

Again the stacks have to be APPLIED. If one of those 4 a DE at range with rifle, a second a ranger at range using a longbow, the third a warrior in close using resistance and the fourth a scourge applying his shades how many torment stacks is that mesmer able to APPLY? Don't base a runes potentcy on 4 peoples standing in a group saying "hit me". A staff Daredevil can use IP and hit 5 guys standing in a group saying hit me too and generate a whole lot of healing if they just stand and take it.

All nice and dandy theory, but you are tailor cutting opponents to your liking. Most engagements, especially against a class with stealth available, do not happen at 1,500 range nor do most classes fight at that range.

Heal on torment application is the next issue, it provides its benefits upfront where as most condition counter-play happens as reaction via cleanses (in mirage case you need to survive the burst). Having a heal trigger on application force you to dodge or burn cds early which is a very bad idea against mirage.

Anyway, as I said let's wait and see. I'm pretty sure we will see changes, hopefully to the rune and not the class.

I can tell you with relative certainty the class will get changes that will most likely make it worse than DE with perma reveal and no shadow meld. One streamer who literally always complains about mirage all but said it's getting bopped and it's because vocal people whine about it so much despite it's flaws and low representation by ANets own metrics.

[babazhook.6805]

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:

@FaboBabo.3581 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:The Rune fine with the changes. a 13 stack torment application is still only a 2200 heal. I get more on my warrior with a shout and have 6 shouts I can use right after the other. If you are consitently getting it with 13 torment stacks every dodge or shatter, you have more to worry about then whether it healed uyp the enemy by 2k.

and you did the math for more than just single target? Say when shattering and hitting more than 1 target (when 1v2 or 1v3 fighting in WvW or Spvp)?

Warrior shouts do not scale up according to enemy last time I checked, at least not the healing component. That is not even getting into the issues that this heal is on your main offensive and defensive ability as mirage, your dodge.

Warriors shouts heal all allies (up to 5) around you. I can heal my allies for 14000 health sum totl PLUSgive 5 of them all 100+ endurance for more dodges.

You do not measure the balance of a rune based upon what it might do in a ZERG fight. There any manner of skills and abilities that see there effects multiplied exponentially in a zerg fight. While I do not participate in many Zerg fights they are NOT dominated by Mesmers nor will they be with this rune. The mesmer might be able to save himself for a period of time but once allies in the zerg fall mesmer will have to run or die.

Its not about zerging but outnumbered roaming.

Ur warrior vs 1 or 4 is meaningless for the heal Value. Rune of torment vs 1 or 4 is a big difference.

Predicated on that Mesmer being able to apply toment stacks at will to 4 different players. Quite frankly if 4 players facing one mesmer are always hit by torment stacks each time that mesmser tries and apply them, they have learn to play issues. If a mesmer is able to apply his full potential of torment stacks to 4 different players at will hE ptobably does not need those heals to beat them.

Again the stacks have to be APPLIED. If one of those 4 a DE at range with rifle, a second a ranger at range using a longbow, the third a warrior in close using resistance and the fourth a scourge applying his shades how many torment stacks is that mesmer able to APPLY? Don't base a runes potentcy on 4 peoples standing in a group saying "hit me". A staff Daredevil can use IP and hit 5 guys standing in a group saying hit me too and generate a whole lot of healing if they just stand and take it.

All nice and dandy theory, but you are tailor cutting opponents to your liking. Most engagements, especially against a class with stealth available, do not happen at 1,500 range nor do most classes fight at that range.

Heal on torment application is the next issue, it provides its benefits upfront where as most condition counter-play happens as reaction via cleanses (in mirage case you need to survive the burst). Having a heal trigger on application force you to dodge or burn cds early which is a very bad idea against mirage.

Anyway, as I said let's wait and see. I'm pretty sure we will see changes, hopefully to the rune and not the class.

Oh please. You can not calim a situation being tailored to ones liking and then tailor your own example to your own liking.

There are manner of threads on roaming with complaints they dominated by the Deadeye and Ranger both RANGED classe syet you pretend he buld of raomers in small scale are somehow melee fighters? Ranger with Longbow uses LOTS of stealth as does the deadeye and if you do not think that the case you are playing another game.

The three single most represented roaming classes are thief and its iterations, mesmer and its iterations and Ranger and its iterations from what I see each and every night and they all in turn have Ranged fighters in the mix. If I AM on a DE or Ranger and come across a group of people that only fight at melee, they are pretty easy to avoid which is why player favor the classes I speak of.

There are few Engineers that I see roaming. Of the few I see Holorifle is s popular as any other version.I do not recall the last time I saw a Revenant Roaming.Necroes and their versions along with Warriors that roam tend to be melee but this hrdly "the majority".

Now to this heal triggerred an an application of damage. So what? The builds that can do that have always existed including builds that scaled the more enemies there were.

When POF first rolled out I roled up a DeathBlossom thief in apothecary/shaman mix of armor. He used impaling lotus in dodge with d/d and d/d each weaponset each dagger having one energy sigil. QP was traited . I could heal on EVERY applciation of a condition by 200 and if the number of enmies increased the number of total HITS increased. A Single death blossom could yield 1800 in heals even as it applied bleeds on each and every deathblossom of which I could chain together multiples in a row this just off Signet Of Malice. This could be followed up with heals from Impaling lotus on my dodges again increasing those heasl the more enemies there were. If 5 guys standing it melee blindly swinging away all clustered in a group then it just made it EASIER from me to apply damage as I healed. Indeed when I was headed towards an camp held by the enemy and saw two roamers on the bad guys side run my way to defend the camp, I would run INTO the cam to fight because the NPCS defending it would just add to my sustain with no loss to damage out.

[babazhook.6805]

@FaboBabo.3581 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:

@FaboBabo.3581 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:The Rune fine with the changes. a 13 stack torment application is still only a 2200 heal. I get more on my warrior with a shout and have 6 shouts I can use right after the other. If you are consitently getting it with 13 torment stacks every dodge or shatter, you have more to worry about then whether it healed uyp the enemy by 2k.

and you did the math for more than just single target? Say when shattering and hitting more than 1 target (when 1v2 or 1v3 fighting in WvW or Spvp)?

Warrior shouts do not scale up according to enemy last time I checked, at least not the healing component. That is not even getting into the issues that this heal is on your main offensive and defensive ability as mirage, your dodge.

Warriors shouts heal all allies (up to 5) around you. I can heal my allies for 14000 health sum totl PLUSgive 5 of them all 100+ endurance for more dodges.

You do not measure the balance of a rune based upon what it might do in a ZERG fight. There any manner of skills and abilities that see there effects multiplied exponentially in a zerg fight. While I do not participate in many Zerg fights they are NOT dominated by Mesmers nor will they be with this rune. The mesmer might be able to save himself for a period of time but once allies in the zerg fall mesmer will have to run or die.

Its not about zerging but outnumbered roaming.

Ur warrior vs 1 or 4 is meaningless for the heal Value. Rune of torment vs 1 or 4 is a big difference.

Predicated on that Mesmer being able to apply toment stacks at will to 4 different players. Quite frankly if 4 players facing one mesmer are always hit by torment stacks each time that mesmser tries and apply them, they have learn to play issues. If a mesmer is able to apply his full potential of torment stacks to 4 different players at will hE ptobably does not need those heals to beat them.

Again the stacks have to be APPLIED. If one of those 4 a DE at range with rifle, a second a ranger at range using a longbow, the third a warrior in close using resistance and the fourth a scourge applying his shades how many torment stacks is that mesmer able to APPLY? Don't base a runes potentcy on 4 peoples standing in a group saying "hit me". A staff Daredevil can use IP and hit 5 guys standing in a group saying hit me too and generate a whole lot of healing if they just stand and take it.

Now ; how many houres did u play Mirage with Torment Runes in WvW in the last 24-36 houres?

I do not play Mirage. While I have all classes up to 80 , a number were done with scrolls. The last time I played a mesmer was when i tried Chronomancer. I am not fond of the class.

Did you have a point?

[Cyninja.2954]

@babazhook.6805 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:

@FaboBabo.3581 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:The Rune fine with the changes. a 13 stack torment application is still only a 2200 heal. I get more on my warrior with a shout and have 6 shouts I can use right after the other. If you are consitently getting it with 13 torment stacks every dodge or shatter, you have more to worry about then whether it healed uyp the enemy by 2k.

and you did the math for more than just single target? Say when shattering and hitting more than 1 target (when 1v2 or 1v3 fighting in WvW or Spvp)?

Warrior shouts do not scale up according to enemy last time I checked, at least not the healing component. That is not even getting into the issues that this heal is on your main offensive and defensive ability as mirage, your dodge.

Warriors shouts heal all allies (up to 5) around you. I can heal my allies for 14000 health sum totl PLUSgive 5 of them all 100+ endurance for more dodges.

You do not measure the balance of a rune based upon what it might do in a ZERG fight. There any manner of skills and abilities that see there effects multiplied exponentially in a zerg fight. While I do not participate in many Zerg fights they are NOT dominated by Mesmers nor will they be with this rune. The mesmer might be able to save himself for a period of time but once allies in the zerg fall mesmer will have to run or die.

Its not about zerging but outnumbered roaming.

Ur warrior vs 1 or 4 is meaningless for the heal Value. Rune of torment vs 1 or 4 is a big difference.

Predicated on that Mesmer being able to apply toment stacks at will to 4 different players. Quite frankly if 4 players facing one mesmer are always hit by torment stacks each time that mesmser tries and apply them, they have learn to play issues. If a mesmer is able to apply his full potential of torment stacks to 4 different players at will hE ptobably does not need those heals to beat them.

Again the stacks have to be APPLIED. If one of those 4 a DE at range with rifle, a second a ranger at range using a longbow, the third a warrior in close using resistance and the fourth a scourge applying his shades how many torment stacks is that mesmer able to APPLY? Don't base a runes potentcy on 4 peoples standing in a group saying "hit me". A staff Daredevil can use IP and hit 5 guys standing in a group saying hit me too and generate a whole lot of healing if they just stand and take it.

All nice and dandy theory, but you are tailor cutting opponents to your liking. Most engagements, especially against a class with stealth available, do not happen at 1,500 range nor do most classes fight at that range.

Heal on torment application is the next issue, it provides its benefits upfront where as most condition counter-play happens as reaction via cleanses (in mirage case you need to survive the burst). Having a heal trigger on application force you to dodge or burn cds early which is a very bad idea against mirage.

Anyway, as I said let's wait and see. I'm pretty sure we will see changes, hopefully to the rune and not the class.

Oh please. You can not calim a situation being tailored to ones liking and then tailor your own example to your own liking.

I did not tailor anything, I said most roaming and combat in this game happens at close to medium range, even max range classes will get approached by most opponents.

Chances of hitting multiple opponents in a 1v2 or 1v3 are very high especially when two players are focusing 1 player or if a second player is trying to peel for his buddy. Unless you are running a tailor built ranged roaming gang, your example is a theoretical delusion.

@babazhook.6805 said:There are manner of threads on roaming with complaints they dominated by the Deadeye and Ranger both RANGED classe syet you pretend he buld of raomers in small scale are somehow melee fighters? Ranger with Longbow uses LOTS of stealth as does the deadeye and if you do not think that the case you are playing another game.

Sure, and then you have the discussions about actually strong classes and people who know how to play their class and all those deadeye and ranger gimmick builds fall away.

Looking at the spvp and wvw forum right now and the threads about mesmer and mirage outweigh any other class heavily, still even after several nerfs. People complaining about deadeye get laughed out of their thread regularly.

@babazhook.6805 said:The three single most represented roaming classes are thief and its iterations, mesmer and its iterations and Ranger and its iterations from what I see each and every night and they all in turn have Ranged fighters in the mix. If I AM on a DE or Ranger and come across a group of people that only fight at melee, they are pretty easy to avoid which is why player favor the classes I speak of.

See and I would have said the most represented roaming classes are thief (due to stealth and their engage and disengage benefits), Engineer (because a well played one will take on most opponents) and warrior (even after nerfs the spellbreaker remains strong). Ranger is not even on the list. How much WvW do you actually play?

@babazhook.6805 said:

There are few Engineers that I see roaming. Of the few I see Holorifle is s popular as any other version.

Holorifle doesn't fight at 1,500 range unless the Holo decides to forfeit 70% of his kit. The rifle is used mostly for its movement and utility skills, not range.

@babazhook.6805 said:I do not recall the last time I saw a Revenant Roaming.

@babazhook.6805 said:Necroes and their versions along with Warriors that roam tend to be melee but this hrdly "the majority".

Necros and especially scourge are one of the go-to classes for wvw, so is warrior. Both roam and warrior is among the top roamers still.

@babazhook.6805 said:

Now to this heal triggerred an an application of damage. So what? The builds that can do that have always existed including builds that scaled the more enemies there were.

Because balance does not work off of so-what arguments. Mirages are fought a certain way and this rune provides significant benefits to the mirage, which is already (or rather still) a very strong duelist.

@babazhook.6805 said:

When POF first rolled out I roled up a DeathBlossom thief in apothecary/shaman mix of armor. He used impaling lotus in dodge with d/d and d/d each weaponset each dagger having one energy sigil. QP was traited . I could heal on EVERY applciation of a condition by 200 and if the number of enmies increased the number of total HITS increased. A Single death blossom could yield 1800 in heals even as it applied bleeds on each and every deathblossom of which I could chain together multiples in a row this just off Signet Of Malice. This could be followed up with heals from Impaling lotus on my dodges again increasing those heasl the more enemies there were. If 5 guys standing it melee blindly swinging away all clustered in a group then it just made it EASIER from me to apply damage as I healed. Indeed when I was headed towards an camp held by the enemy and saw two roamers on the bad guys side run my way to defend the camp, I would run INTO the cam to fight because the NPCS defending it would just add to my sustain with no loss to damage out.

Nice example, when PoF launched scourge, mirage and spellbreaker were completely overpowered, especially spellbreaker. Then things got balanced and the game is in a better state now. See how that works?

[Cyninja.2954]

@babazhook.6805 said:

@FaboBabo.3581 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:

@FaboBabo.3581 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:The Rune fine with the changes. a 13 stack torment application is still only a 2200 heal. I get more on my warrior with a shout and have 6 shouts I can use right after the other. If you are consitently getting it with 13 torment stacks every dodge or shatter, you have more to worry about then whether it healed uyp the enemy by 2k.

and you did the math for more than just single target? Say when shattering and hitting more than 1 target (when 1v2 or 1v3 fighting in WvW or Spvp)?

Warrior shouts do not scale up according to enemy last time I checked, at least not the healing component. That is not even getting into the issues that this heal is on your main offensive and defensive ability as mirage, your dodge.

Warriors shouts heal all allies (up to 5) around you. I can heal my allies for 14000 health sum totl PLUSgive 5 of them all 100+ endurance for more dodges.

You do not measure the balance of a rune based upon what it might do in a ZERG fight. There any manner of skills and abilities that see there effects multiplied exponentially in a zerg fight. While I do not participate in many Zerg fights they are NOT dominated by Mesmers nor will they be with this rune. The mesmer might be able to save himself for a period of time but once allies in the zerg fall mesmer will have to run or die.

Its not about zerging but outnumbered roaming.

Ur warrior vs 1 or 4 is meaningless for the heal Value. Rune of torment vs 1 or 4 is a big difference.

Predicated on that Mesmer being able to apply toment stacks at will to 4 different players. Quite frankly if 4 players facing one mesmer are always hit by torment stacks each time that mesmser tries and apply them, they have learn to play issues. If a mesmer is able to apply his full potential of torment stacks to 4 different players at will hE ptobably does not need those heals to beat them.

Again the stacks have to be APPLIED. If one of those 4 a DE at range with rifle, a second a ranger at range using a longbow, the third a warrior in close using resistance and the fourth a scourge applying his shades how many torment stacks is that mesmer able to APPLY? Don't base a runes potentcy on 4 peoples standing in a group saying "hit me". A staff Daredevil can use IP and hit 5 guys standing in a group saying hit me too and generate a whole lot of healing if they just stand and take it.

Now ; how many houres did u play Mirage with Torment Runes in WvW in the last 24-36 houres?

I do not play Mirage. While I have all classes up to 80 , a number were done with scrolls. The last time I played a mesmer was when i tried Chronomancer. I am not fond of the class.

Did you have a point?

Probably that you are arguing a rune and class you have obviously 0 clue about? Just my guess.

And before you come back all high and mighty, here is the correct approach to this:

Get on your mesmer, setup a mirage build, put on some runes of torment, practice a bit and give the class and rune combination a go. Then come back and argue about something you actually have something to say about.

EDIT: fun side fact, the Superior Rune of Tormenting remains the most expensive rune on the TP, even after the fix that not all conditions affect the healing. Given that it sells at a hefty premium versus the crafting components needed and is likely not an ideal pick for pve (since 100% condi duration is a thing), there is a ton of people who are buying this rune for wvw. Never a good indicator of something being balanced.

[babazhook.6805]

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:

@FaboBabo.3581 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:

@FaboBabo.3581 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:The Rune fine with the changes. a 13 stack torment application is still only a 2200 heal. I get more on my warrior with a shout and have 6 shouts I can use right after the other. If you are consitently getting it with 13 torment stacks every dodge or shatter, you have more to worry about then whether it healed uyp the enemy by 2k.

and you did the math for more than just single target? Say when shattering and hitting more than 1 target (when 1v2 or 1v3 fighting in WvW or Spvp)?

Warrior shouts do not scale up according to enemy last time I checked, at least not the healing component. That is not even getting into the issues that this heal is on your main offensive and defensive ability as mirage, your dodge.

Warriors shouts heal all allies (up to 5) around you. I can heal my allies for 14000 health sum totl PLUSgive 5 of them all 100+ endurance for more dodges.

You do not measure the balance of a rune based upon what it might do in a ZERG fight. There any manner of skills and abilities that see there effects multiplied exponentially in a zerg fight. While I do not participate in many Zerg fights they are NOT dominated by Mesmers nor will they be with this rune. The mesmer might be able to save himself for a period of time but once allies in the zerg fall mesmer will have to run or die.

Its not about zerging but outnumbered roaming.

Ur warrior vs 1 or 4 is meaningless for the heal Value. Rune of torment vs 1 or 4 is a big difference.

Predicated on that Mesmer being able to apply toment stacks at will to 4 different players. Quite frankly if 4 players facing one mesmer are always hit by torment stacks each time that mesmser tries and apply them, they have learn to play issues. If a mesmer is able to apply his full potential of torment stacks to 4 different players at will hE ptobably does not need those heals to beat them.

Again the stacks have to be APPLIED. If one of those 4 a DE at range with rifle, a second a ranger at range using a longbow, the third a warrior in close using resistance and the fourth a scourge applying his shades how many torment stacks is that mesmer able to APPLY? Don't base a runes potentcy on 4 peoples standing in a group saying "hit me". A staff Daredevil can use IP and hit 5 guys standing in a group saying hit me too and generate a whole lot of healing if they just stand and take it.

Now ; how many houres did u play Mirage with Torment Runes in WvW in the last 24-36 houres?

I do not play Mirage. While I have all classes up to 80 , a number were done with scrolls. The last time I played a mesmer was when i tried Chronomancer. I am not fond of the class.

Did you have a point?

Probably that you are arguing a rune and class you have obviously 0 clue about? Just my guess.

And before you come back all high and mighty, here is the correct approach to this:

Get on your mesmer, setup a mirage build, put on some runes of torment, practice a bit and give the class and rune combination a go. Then come back and argue about something you actually have something to say about.

EDIT: fun side fact, the Superior Rune of Tormenting remains the most expensive rune on the TP, even after the fix that not all conditions affect the healing. Given that it sells at a hefty premium versus the crafting components needed and is likely not an ideal pick for pve (since 100% condi duration is a thing), there is a ton of people who are buying this rune for wvw. Never a good indicator of something being balanced.

Yeah I remember when Sigil of Generosiity the most expensive Sigil. Funny how that flavor of the day stuff works.Right now Concentration the highest sigil. Must be OP.

[babazhook.6805]

Nice example, when PoF launched scourge, mirage and spellbreaker were completely overpowered, especially spellbreaker. Then things got balanced and the game is in a better state now. See how that works?

What does this have to do with my Deathblossom thief applying bleeds as he healed? It was hardly OP and no changes were made to SOM because he could do that.

Added to that if there a poblem with mesmer being too strong as a duelist the issue is with Mesmer not the rune. See Sanctuary rune and The scourge.

Necroes and scourges run with Zergs for the most part. I do not see all that many Roaming. I see more rangers roaming by a long shot. Your response that "this mean I do not play WvW" is lame. Rangers do not work well in zergs. Lots of people play rangers. What do you think all the players playing rangers do with their time in WvW? Rangers are tied for the most popular class in GW2 and engineers tied for last but then according to you they dont don't roam and given they all not that good in Zergs I guess they spend all their time in game fixing armor at the merchant.

Oh as a BTW. That warrior I mentioned that gets 2200 in heals every shout also gets also gets 5k healing everytime he stun breaks. None of this predicated on needing "5 guys that all fight at melee because most fights are at melee" stuff.

[Cyninja.2954]

@babazhook.6805 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:

@FaboBabo.3581 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:

@FaboBabo.3581 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:The Rune fine with the changes. a 13 stack torment application is still only a 2200 heal. I get more on my warrior with a shout and have 6 shouts I can use right after the other. If you are consitently getting it with 13 torment stacks every dodge or shatter, you have more to worry about then whether it healed uyp the enemy by 2k.

and you did the math for more than just single target? Say when shattering and hitting more than 1 target (when 1v2 or 1v3 fighting in WvW or Spvp)?

Warrior shouts do not scale up according to enemy last time I checked, at least not the healing component. That is not even getting into the issues that this heal is on your main offensive and defensive ability as mirage, your dodge.

Warriors shouts heal all allies (up to 5) around you. I can heal my allies for 14000 health sum totl PLUSgive 5 of them all 100+ endurance for more dodges.

You do not measure the balance of a rune based upon what it might do in a ZERG fight. There any manner of skills and abilities that see there effects multiplied exponentially in a zerg fight. While I do not participate in many Zerg fights they are NOT dominated by Mesmers nor will they be with this rune. The mesmer might be able to save himself for a period of time but once allies in the zerg fall mesmer will have to run or die.

Its not about zerging but outnumbered roaming.

Ur warrior vs 1 or 4 is meaningless for the heal Value. Rune of torment vs 1 or 4 is a big difference.

Predicated on that Mesmer being able to apply toment stacks at will to 4 different players. Quite frankly if 4 players facing one mesmer are always hit by torment stacks each time that mesmser tries and apply them, they have learn to play issues. If a mesmer is able to apply his full potential of torment stacks to 4 different players at will hE ptobably does not need those heals to beat them.

Again the stacks have to be APPLIED. If one of those 4 a DE at range with rifle, a second a ranger at range using a longbow, the third a warrior in close using resistance and the fourth a scourge applying his shades how many torment stacks is that mesmer able to APPLY? Don't base a runes potentcy on 4 peoples standing in a group saying "hit me". A staff Daredevil can use IP and hit 5 guys standing in a group saying hit me too and generate a whole lot of healing if they just stand and take it.

Now ; how many houres did u play Mirage with Torment Runes in WvW in the last 24-36 houres?

I do not play Mirage. While I have all classes up to 80 , a number were done with scrolls. The last time I played a mesmer was when i tried Chronomancer. I am not fond of the class.

Did you have a point?

Probably that you are arguing a rune and class you have obviously 0 clue about? Just my guess.

And before you come back all high and mighty, here is the correct approach to this:

Get on your mesmer, setup a mirage build, put on some runes of torment, practice a bit and give the class and rune combination a go. Then come back and argue about something you actually have something to say about.

EDIT: fun side fact, the Superior Rune of Tormenting remains the most expensive rune on the TP, even after the fix that not all conditions affect the healing. Given that it sells at a hefty premium versus the crafting components needed and is likely not an ideal pick for pve (since 100% condi duration is a thing), there is a ton of people who are buying this rune for wvw. Never a good indicator of something being balanced.

Yeah I remember when Sigil of Generosiity the most expensive Sigil. Funny how that flavor of the day stuff works.Right now Concentration the highest sigil. Must be OP.

Exactly why I mentioned that crafting the sigil is a lot cheaper than on the TP. You are comparing apples to oranges, Superior Sigil of Generosity never had an option to get crafted thus there is no reference price of materials to draw upon. Superior Rune of Tormenting has a crafting option and we can compare crafting price to TP price to notice it is still selling at a hefty profit margin.

If something outperforms its crafting price by 20-30% that is a clear indicator of high demand. I already explained how this is likely only due to WvW, you connect the dots.

@babazhook.6805 said:

Nice example, when PoF launched scourge, mirage and spellbreaker were completely overpowered, especially spellbreaker. Then things got balanced and the game is in a better state now. See how that works?

What does this have to do with my Deathblossom thief applying bleeds as he healed? It was hardly OP and no changes were made to SOM because he could do that.

Added to that if there a poblem with mesmer being too strong as a duelist the issue is with Mesmer not the rune. See Sanctuary rune and The scourge.

Yes, it's the class which was just balanced down again and was slowly finding a sweet spot, not some rune interaction. /s

The case of Sanctuary and necromancer was explained very well and it had to do with synergy and outside healing, that is so far from this issue. I will give you that if not reading up on the change one can draw parallels.

I'm sorry if I'd rather have the rune reworked than the class re-balanced only because 1 rune interaction is to strong. Re-balancing the class also means you make all other rune choices obsolete thus further damaging choice and builds.

@babazhook.6805 said:Necroes and scourges run with Zergs for the most part. I do not see all that many Roaming. I see more rangers roaming by a long shot. Your response that "this mean I do not play WvW" is lame. Rangers do not work well in zergs. Lots of people play rangers. What do you think all the players playing rangers do with their time in WvW? Rangers are tied for the most popular class in GW2 and engineers tied for last but then according to you they dont don't roam and given they all not that good in Zergs I guess they spend all their time in game fixing armor at the merchant.

I never said scourge or necro roam, I said they are very dominant in wvw zergs which can lead to encountering them. I specifically said that warriors roam while being very popular in zergs.

Let's put it this way, a ranger who roams unless he runs a bunker druid build is a non issue for most top tier classes. Even those rangers will get forced into mid range fights. Engineers are actually very dominant as roamers, because the class is so strong. The range they fight at is not long and not medium but close, which was a reply to your holo rifle mention.

@babazhook.6805 said:Oh as a BTW. That warrior I mentioned that gets 2200 in heals every shout also gets also gets 5k healing everytime he stun breaks. None of this predicated on needing "5 guys that all fight at melee because most fights are at melee" stuff.

Last time I checked, shouts and stun breaks do not kill and certainly do not pressure as hard as 10-20 stacks of torment while being immune and sped-up. But yes, warrior is a very strong roaming class, not sure what you are trying to prove here. The rune the way it is implemented is still obscenely strong, it's just strongest on mirage.

[babazhook.6805]

I never said scourge or necro roam, I said they are very dominant in wvw zergs which can lead to encountering them. I specifically said that warriors roam while being very popular in zergs.

First you indicated that when discussing whether this Rune OP you were not talking about Zerg Fights. So we talking about roaming and small scale roaming.

In a 1v1 the rune is not going to make a heck of a lot of difference, You are not getting those "Multiple opponents" so as to magnify the Runes heal. I have experience with how that works and do not have to play a mesmer to do so which is why I exampled the DB thief.

So you are really talking about those LIMITED occassions where a group of 3 or 4 come upon a single mesmer and by your words those Three or 4 all fighting at melee so that all three or 4 are hit at once by the Mesmers torment applciation.

Again I use my example of the Dblossom thief I used. This RARELY occurs which one reason I would run into a camp for more targets. In any group of three or four you will have your ranged attackers contrary to your claims that the fights all happen at melee so that the mesmer can hit them all at once. If you have three or 4 players unable to generate enough damag to Counter the Occasional Heal of 2 or 3 k from a mesmer you have other issues and might want to rethink your squad.

Now again I referenced the example of my Warrior and his heals. I spend the vast majority of my time in WvW solo roaming. I just spent the morning doing the same there. I did not come across a single group of 3 or 4 which were all melee. I would have welcomed in because the build perfroms much better against melee than against ranged. It simply a RARE occurence. So you are talking about a rune as being OP because once in a while a single mesmer MIGHT come across three melee fighters in a group and MIGHT be able to garner some extra heals off the rune if all of those in the larger group are unable to avoid that torment app.

As i said in my another response to you. You are CRAFTING scenarios that rarely occur in WvW in an attempt to make the Rune seem OP.

Last time I checked, shouts and stun breaks do not kill and certainly do not pressure as hard as 10-20 stacks of torment while being immune and sped-up. But yes, warrior is a very strong roaming class, not sure what you are trying to prove here. The rune the way it is implemented is still obscenely strong, it's just strongest on mirage.

Last time I checked, stun breaks or shouts do not require me to LAND an attack to get that heal. If you are standing melee with my warrior you will take plenty of conditions via Burns and bleeds. The point being made is that eeven with those heals and armor that swings from 4k to 5 k and condition cleanses galore he can be tkane out. He does very well against those mesmers.

[Cyninja.2954]

@babazhook.6805 said:

I never said scourge or necro roam, I said they are very dominant in wvw zergs which can lead to encountering them. I specifically said that warriors roam while being very popular in zergs.

First you indicated that when discussing whether this Rune OP you were not talking about Zerg Fights. So we talking about roaming and small scale roaming.

In a 1v1 the rune is not going to make a heck of a lot of difference, You are not getting those "Multiple opponents" so as to magnify the Runes heal. I have experience with how that works and do not have to play a mesmer to do so which is why I exampled the DB thief.

It is very evident you do not play mesmer or mirage. I doubt you are beating mirage in 1v1 fight too. That is a different issue though.

If you think that a strong roamer getting a free heal with his main offensive and defensive ability which changes how people need to engage the class in favor of the mirage is not concerning, we need not continue arguing.

Maybe if you actually played mirage or against mirages we could actually talk on equal footing here. I'm sure you are sniping mirages left and right on your ranger in wvw.

@babazhook.6805 said:

So you are really talking about those LIMITED occassions where a group of 3 or 4 come upon a single mesmer and by your words those Three or 4 all fighting at melee so that all three or 4 are hit at once by the Mesmers torment applciation.

I'm talking about regular occasions in wvw where you are engaging 1 person and someone adds in. I've explained how most fights and engagements among top tier picks and not gimmick builds happen at a beneficial range to mirage shatter and cleave. That does not mean all people will be stacked up nicely, but a good mirage can force positioning of his opponents which at the least need to deal with his illusions or else be forced to deal with his evasion and vastly higher damage and now free healing.

@babazhook.6805 said:

Again I use my example of the Dblossom thief I used. This RARELY occurs which one reason I would run into a camp for more targets. In any group of three or four you will have your ranged attackers contrary to your claims that the fights all happen at melee so that the mesmer can hit them all at once. If you have three or 4 players unable to generate enough damag to Counter the Occasional Heal of 2 or 3 k from a mesmer you have other issues and might want to rethink your squad.

4 good players will be able to beat 1 poor mirage. 1 good mirage will manage to beat 4 poor players. Sure that is basic number bias. Doesn't mean the rune does not favor the mirage heavily and adds a ton of survival with stacking benefits against more targets.

@babazhook.6805 said:

Now again I referenced the example of my Warrior and his heals. I spend the vast majority of my time in WvW solo roaming. I just spent the morning doing the same there.

Yup I'm sure you did. Everything points to you being an experienced wvw player. Go for it.

[babazhook.6805]

If you think that a strong roamer getting a free heal with his main offensive and defensive ability which changes how people need to engage the class in favor of the mirage is not concerning, we need not continue arguing.

It patently obvious you are the one having the issues with 4 or five of you unable to take out a singke mirage in WvW and not myself. Again you PRETEND to be a good player yet have not shown a single example of that.

When I face bad players on my DB thief I could tell right away as they did not adapt to the build in question just as is the case with my warrior. Apparently you can not adapt to a Mirage even with 4 or 5 guys on your side. One thing I have learned about WvW over the years is that there always that group of people that whine about every build they meet rather then try and counter the build they meet by changing their own tactics. It clear what group you are in.

So one more time as you seem to be so very Obtuse. A deathblossom Thief using SOM gets a FREE heal with his MAIN offensive and defensive ability. This works very well against BAD players. When players change how they fight that thief it does not work so very well. Change how you fight . Stop whining everytime you lose a fight. You do know you can dodge a shatter? Apparently the four melee guys you hunt with do not know that either. And 4 of you unable to destroy those illusions and clones?

[Cyninja.2954]

@babazhook.6805 said:

If you think that a strong roamer getting a free heal with his main offensive and defensive ability which changes how people need to engage the class in favor of the mirage is not concerning, we need not continue arguing.

It patently obvious you are the one having the issues with 4 or five of you unable to take out a singke mirage in WvW and not myself. Again you PRETEND to be a good player yet have not shown a single example of that.

When I face bad players on my DB thief I could tell right away as they did not adapt to the build in question just as is the case with my warrior. Apparently you can not adapt to a Mirage even with 4 or 5 guys on your side. One thing I have learned about WvW over the years is that there always that group of people that whine about every build they meet rather then try and counter the build they meet by changing their own tactics. It clear what group you are in.

So one more time as you seem to be so very Obtuse. A deathblossom Thief using SOM gets a FREE heal with his MAIN offensive and defensive ability. This works very well against BAD players. When players change how they fight that thief it does not work so very well. Change how you fight . Stop whining everytime you lose a fight. You do know you can dodge a shatter? Apparently the four melee guys you hunt with do not know that either. And 4 of you unable to destroy those illusions and clones?

Yup, I'm the one knowing exactly how strong a class and build is of a class I have not played ever and a core class I have not touched since HoT.

I'm not whining about anything, I'm predicting a rebalanced to an obviously over performing rune on a class I main and have played for close to 3k hours. The one class I have never issues with fighting is Mesmer.

Yes I would hate to see my class nerfed only because 1 rune is way to strong on it. Why? Because I would hate to be pigeonholed into ever only using this 1 rune after the class gets unnecessarily nerfed when a rune rework would be way more efficient.

[apharma.3741]

I don't know where you guys play but I've been on WSR for a long time so have seen the T1-3 scene a lot and it's mostly warriors, facerollosmiths, rangers, thieves, guards scourge+firebrand combo and mirages I see roaming.

You see a few sword weavers here and there, some lone scourges who pretty much know they have allies in a nearby keep/tower ready to jump you after you've spent the required half a decade kiting around their snap to target vomit and burning through the barriers and some revs too.

Any class that can use stealth uses stealth and any class with massive range movement skills use them. In terms of condition builds it's only really scourges and mirages and even then I'd say half of mirages are condi and half power. Most scourges are power or cele now too and every now and then you come across a condi FB, engy, rev or ele and the only reason they get any success at all is because people don't realise (yes they use power food) it's condi because it's such a weird thing to do.

Edit: @Cyninja.2954 I understand your concerns but I don't think the runes are a major issue and it helps to think of the situation where they become an issue and whether that's down to the rune or the players. Where this run is an issue is: Where you can apply a lot of torment frequently to a lot of player and where the healing you receive from it makes a significant difference to the outcome of the fight, in other words where the constant stream of healing is keeping you from dying where you otherwise would die.

So that's an outnumbered fight where people somehow tank all your attacks at a decent rate while you somehow manage to avoid the opponents attacks at a much higher rate but still take a number of hits but this rune keeps you topped up between heals. The problem for me is that this circumstance is VERY niche and would be 2-3 vs 1 and it would have to be against players who aren't that good because they're tanking your damage. I won't lie and say I haven't come across situations where a rune like this wouldn't make a difference but the number of times it might swing a fight is maybe twice on a weekend when I'm roaming for 7-8 hours. You also tend to be slower than everyone else if you're not running sword, portal or chaos line because almost everyone has a +25% movement speed or perma swiftness now.

[Curunen.8729]

Hmm, now being on NA for a while (used to be EU) there's a lot of rangers and deadeyes among many other things. Even ran into soulbeast/firebrand duos ("cancer" takes on a new meaning...). But overall a good mix/variety.

Personally I don't rate these runes so much for roaming because when kitten hits the fan and I need to disengage/kite/heal it's generally not at the same time as wanting to burst a lot of torment.Also preferring a more burst oriented playstyle the heal could be at the wrong time with gaps/downtime in significant health regain.

I'm sure they have value in some fight situations and builds, but not for me.

Edit, I am curious though if using these with holographic super cakes, renewing oasis, RI, illusionary inspiration with DE, and maybe some other supplementary minor frequent heals, just how much combined sustain potential can be built for. Not my kind of build, and I can't imagine it offsetting significant incoming power burst, but would be interesting to see the full extent of taking all these individually weak heals together.

[apharma.3741]

So I tried my runes out on a rev and the sustain from the runes and torment application in a 1v1 was negligible, if the fight scales up maybe it would have been better but I can't see these runes breaking the game any more than any other rune and certainly less than something like sanctuary or monk.

[Virdo.1540]

Just wanted to ask, since i couldnt find the post under "Players helping players"

Is it still per stack torment without internal cooldown?

[Antycypator.9874]

@"Virdo.1540" said:Just wanted to ask, since i couldnt find the post under "Players helping players"

Is it still per stack torment without internal cooldown?

Yes, it's still per stack and it's the best thing ever for my mirage.