Rune and Sigil Changes - 13 November 2018 [Merged] - Page 9 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Rune and Sigil Changes - 13 November 2018 [Merged]

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  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 16, 2018

    @Pifil.5193 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Pifil.5193 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Pifil.5193 said:

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:
    If you compare what we used to get (vendor trash, that required vendoring or TP-listing dozens of items) with what we get now (stuff that can be deposited into material storage and only 8 types of materials), we're far, far better off now.

    Looking at the data from 1000s of salvages, it's clear that we're currently pulling in more coin (if we sell) which can be used to purchase whatever upgrades we need.

    No, I don't think we're far, far better off. At least, the fact that it was vendor trash wasn't much of a problem for me. "Vendor trash" items are just money after all. It was a minor inconvenience at most.

    As for the materials, sure someone will make more money selling them than selling old Runes and Sigils directly but the obvious flip-side is that anyone who wants to actually use them ends up having to spend a lot more. Take Scholar Runes as an example, the new recipe costs 3g 73s to make.

    • 5 Pile of Lucent Crystal
    • 5 Glob of Ectoplasm
    • 5 Elaborate Totem
    • 2 Charm of Brilliance

    The old recipe cost about 1g 60s to make.

    • 1 Bolt of Gossamer
    • 1 Elaborate Totem
    • 1 Charged Lodestone

    An increase of over 12g per set (14g if you include your water breather). Not the end of the world but it's still additional cost when gearing up. The whole rework feels to me like an excuse to add another material sink to the game. That's not a bad thing in itself as the game could use some more sinks but to me adding the sinks feel like the primary purpose of the rework.

    Eventually, the supply will start to accumulate, as the initial demand surge drops off and we keep salvaging by the truckload. Prices will start to fall and soon, people will be complaining that stuff isn't worth anything. (Although that won't be true either.)

    The price will drop but with very few new Sigils and Runes entering the market from the "traditional" manner (i.e. salvaging gear) I wouldn't count on it dropping all that much any time soon. Again it's not necessarily a bad thing and we'll all adjust but it feels a little off when costs are doubled or tripled overnight.

    That part I take issue with. You have no idea how many runes and sigils are entering the market. Right now a lot of people are hoarding the new materials. What you leave out is: all that vendor trash sigils and runes are now being salvaged into crafting materials. That alone can be a huge increase in supply. I personally sold all my green and rare sigils to vendors pre patch consistently, currently I have not listed any crafting materials, and I had some 2 stacks of Superior Sigils stored up for salvaging.

    Also your math is based on inflated prices of the TP at the moment. Pair that with your wild assumption that supply is less and yes, from that point of view one might be concerned. Doesn't not make the point of view any more correct.

    My math is based on the actual prices now, you may think they're inflated but they're the real world prices right now.

    So considering there is a market adjustment in progress, that math is worthless.

    There are always market adjustments happening my math is entirely valid for those of us who actually live in the here and now.

    Except if you use this as reason to complain when it is short term market adjustments. Unless you want to argue that the game be kept in a constant state of no change or balance or development.

    @Pifil.5193 said:

    @Pifil.5193 said:
    I explicitly stated that there would be few new runes and sigils entering the market from the traditional method (salvaging) and that's hardly a "wild assumption." It's basic logic, before now people got runes and sigils all the time from salvaging masterwork, rare and exotic equipment, a lot of those ended up on the TP, now they do not get them from salvaging unless they use a BL salvage kit or an upgrade extractor and I can't see many people using BLSK on Masterwork equipment, for example.

    That is a half truth, currently Black Lion Salvage Kits are bugged and do not provide the same amount of Sigil/Rune resources as they should. Once those are fixed they will provide you with the material equivalent or Rune/Sigil when salvaging. Simply put, you are geting way more materials for runes/sigils to craft while getting less actual runes/sigils.

    No they will provide you with the runes and sigils as before, that's their intended functionality.

    Based on that reasoning, your assumptions are wrong.

    You're trying to expand what I actually said beyond my actual statement in order to create a universe where you're right, that won't work, read my actual statement: materials are not runes or sigils obtained from salvaging my statement is 100% correct.

    @Pifil.5193 said:

    Finally, I stated that I don't think prices will drop all that much any time soon. Meaning I do think they'll drop but I think it'll happen slowly so I don't know what you think my point of view is but you're probably wrong.

    So if prices adjust eventually, all is fine and the title of this thread and opening topic is false, right?

    You're funny. I'd say it will be fine if and when they adjust but it's not fine now.

    Great so if things will be fine, then all is good or not?

    It is literally impossible to change or balance or redesign things without short term effects on the market. As such any complaining is pointless.

  • perilisk.1874perilisk.1874 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Airdive.2613 said:
    Edit: Oh, I see, it takes 3 charms to craft one rune. Right, the number is closer to 200 then (though can be calculated more precisely when I'm bored, lol).

    Yeah, I think my example started off being some mishmash of rune and sigil terms. Well, it's still a big discrepancy in either case.

  • Pifil.5193Pifil.5193 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Pifil.5193 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Pifil.5193 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Pifil.5193 said:

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:
    If you compare what we used to get (vendor trash, that required vendoring or TP-listing dozens of items) with what we get now (stuff that can be deposited into material storage and only 8 types of materials), we're far, far better off now.

    Looking at the data from 1000s of salvages, it's clear that we're currently pulling in more coin (if we sell) which can be used to purchase whatever upgrades we need.

    No, I don't think we're far, far better off. At least, the fact that it was vendor trash wasn't much of a problem for me. "Vendor trash" items are just money after all. It was a minor inconvenience at most.

    As for the materials, sure someone will make more money selling them than selling old Runes and Sigils directly but the obvious flip-side is that anyone who wants to actually use them ends up having to spend a lot more. Take Scholar Runes as an example, the new recipe costs 3g 73s to make.

    • 5 Pile of Lucent Crystal
    • 5 Glob of Ectoplasm
    • 5 Elaborate Totem
    • 2 Charm of Brilliance

    The old recipe cost about 1g 60s to make.

    • 1 Bolt of Gossamer
    • 1 Elaborate Totem
    • 1 Charged Lodestone

    An increase of over 12g per set (14g if you include your water breather). Not the end of the world but it's still additional cost when gearing up. The whole rework feels to me like an excuse to add another material sink to the game. That's not a bad thing in itself as the game could use some more sinks but to me adding the sinks feel like the primary purpose of the rework.

    Eventually, the supply will start to accumulate, as the initial demand surge drops off and we keep salvaging by the truckload. Prices will start to fall and soon, people will be complaining that stuff isn't worth anything. (Although that won't be true either.)

    The price will drop but with very few new Sigils and Runes entering the market from the "traditional" manner (i.e. salvaging gear) I wouldn't count on it dropping all that much any time soon. Again it's not necessarily a bad thing and we'll all adjust but it feels a little off when costs are doubled or tripled overnight.

    That part I take issue with. You have no idea how many runes and sigils are entering the market. Right now a lot of people are hoarding the new materials. What you leave out is: all that vendor trash sigils and runes are now being salvaged into crafting materials. That alone can be a huge increase in supply. I personally sold all my green and rare sigils to vendors pre patch consistently, currently I have not listed any crafting materials, and I had some 2 stacks of Superior Sigils stored up for salvaging.

    Also your math is based on inflated prices of the TP at the moment. Pair that with your wild assumption that supply is less and yes, from that point of view one might be concerned. Doesn't not make the point of view any more correct.

    My math is based on the actual prices now, you may think they're inflated but they're the real world prices right now.

    So considering there is a market adjustment in progress, that math is worthless.

    There are always market adjustments happening my math is entirely valid for those of us who actually live in the here and now.

    Except if you use this as reason to complain when it is short term market adjustments. Unless you want to argue that the game be kept in a constant state of no change or balance or development.

    @Pifil.5193 said:

    @Pifil.5193 said:
    I explicitly stated that there would be few new runes and sigils entering the market from the traditional method (salvaging) and that's hardly a "wild assumption." It's basic logic, before now people got runes and sigils all the time from salvaging masterwork, rare and exotic equipment, a lot of those ended up on the TP, now they do not get them from salvaging unless they use a BL salvage kit or an upgrade extractor and I can't see many people using BLSK on Masterwork equipment, for example.

    That is a half truth, currently Black Lion Salvage Kits are bugged and do not provide the same amount of Sigil/Rune resources as they should. Once those are fixed they will provide you with the material equivalent or Rune/Sigil when salvaging. Simply put, you are geting way more materials for runes/sigils to craft while getting less actual runes/sigils.

    No they will provide you with the runes and sigils as before, that's their intended functionality.

    Based on that reasoning, your assumptions are wrong.

    You're trying to expand what I actually said beyond my actual statement in order to create a universe where you're right, that won't work, read my actual statement: materials are not runes or sigils obtained from salvaging my statement is 100% correct.

    @Pifil.5193 said:

    Finally, I stated that I don't think prices will drop all that much any time soon. Meaning I do think they'll drop but I think it'll happen slowly so I don't know what you think my point of view is but you're probably wrong.

    So if prices adjust eventually, all is fine and the title of this thread and opening topic is false, right?

    You're funny. I'd say it will be fine if and when they adjust but it's not fine now.

    Great so if things will be fine, then all is good or not?

    It is literally impossible to change or balance or redesign things without short term effects on the market. As such any complaining is pointless.

    If it's short term by any given definition of short term then yes. However there is no guarantee these are short term effects.

    Anyway if you read my post again you'll see I'm not strongly opposed to the increase in costs, as I said:

    Again [these cost changes are] not necessarily a bad thing and we'll all adjust but it feels a little off when costs are doubled or tripled overnight.

    My contention is with the idea that we're all better off because of these changes. It didn't make things better, just different. Selling runes and sigils wasn't a problem for me. They could just have added recipes for runes and sigils that used existing materials (maybe even a use for luck) and I'd have been happy.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Pifil.5193 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Pifil.5193 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Pifil.5193 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Pifil.5193 said:

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:
    If you compare what we used to get (vendor trash, that required vendoring or TP-listing dozens of items) with what we get now (stuff that can be deposited into material storage and only 8 types of materials), we're far, far better off now.

    Looking at the data from 1000s of salvages, it's clear that we're currently pulling in more coin (if we sell) which can be used to purchase whatever upgrades we need.

    No, I don't think we're far, far better off. At least, the fact that it was vendor trash wasn't much of a problem for me. "Vendor trash" items are just money after all. It was a minor inconvenience at most.

    As for the materials, sure someone will make more money selling them than selling old Runes and Sigils directly but the obvious flip-side is that anyone who wants to actually use them ends up having to spend a lot more. Take Scholar Runes as an example, the new recipe costs 3g 73s to make.

    • 5 Pile of Lucent Crystal
    • 5 Glob of Ectoplasm
    • 5 Elaborate Totem
    • 2 Charm of Brilliance

    The old recipe cost about 1g 60s to make.

    • 1 Bolt of Gossamer
    • 1 Elaborate Totem
    • 1 Charged Lodestone

    An increase of over 12g per set (14g if you include your water breather). Not the end of the world but it's still additional cost when gearing up. The whole rework feels to me like an excuse to add another material sink to the game. That's not a bad thing in itself as the game could use some more sinks but to me adding the sinks feel like the primary purpose of the rework.

    Eventually, the supply will start to accumulate, as the initial demand surge drops off and we keep salvaging by the truckload. Prices will start to fall and soon, people will be complaining that stuff isn't worth anything. (Although that won't be true either.)

    The price will drop but with very few new Sigils and Runes entering the market from the "traditional" manner (i.e. salvaging gear) I wouldn't count on it dropping all that much any time soon. Again it's not necessarily a bad thing and we'll all adjust but it feels a little off when costs are doubled or tripled overnight.

    That part I take issue with. You have no idea how many runes and sigils are entering the market. Right now a lot of people are hoarding the new materials. What you leave out is: all that vendor trash sigils and runes are now being salvaged into crafting materials. That alone can be a huge increase in supply. I personally sold all my green and rare sigils to vendors pre patch consistently, currently I have not listed any crafting materials, and I had some 2 stacks of Superior Sigils stored up for salvaging.

    Also your math is based on inflated prices of the TP at the moment. Pair that with your wild assumption that supply is less and yes, from that point of view one might be concerned. Doesn't not make the point of view any more correct.

    My math is based on the actual prices now, you may think they're inflated but they're the real world prices right now.

    So considering there is a market adjustment in progress, that math is worthless.

    There are always market adjustments happening my math is entirely valid for those of us who actually live in the here and now.

    Except if you use this as reason to complain when it is short term market adjustments. Unless you want to argue that the game be kept in a constant state of no change or balance or development.

    @Pifil.5193 said:

    @Pifil.5193 said:
    I explicitly stated that there would be few new runes and sigils entering the market from the traditional method (salvaging) and that's hardly a "wild assumption." It's basic logic, before now people got runes and sigils all the time from salvaging masterwork, rare and exotic equipment, a lot of those ended up on the TP, now they do not get them from salvaging unless they use a BL salvage kit or an upgrade extractor and I can't see many people using BLSK on Masterwork equipment, for example.

    That is a half truth, currently Black Lion Salvage Kits are bugged and do not provide the same amount of Sigil/Rune resources as they should. Once those are fixed they will provide you with the material equivalent or Rune/Sigil when salvaging. Simply put, you are geting way more materials for runes/sigils to craft while getting less actual runes/sigils.

    No they will provide you with the runes and sigils as before, that's their intended functionality.

    Based on that reasoning, your assumptions are wrong.

    You're trying to expand what I actually said beyond my actual statement in order to create a universe where you're right, that won't work, read my actual statement: materials are not runes or sigils obtained from salvaging my statement is 100% correct.

    @Pifil.5193 said:

    Finally, I stated that I don't think prices will drop all that much any time soon. Meaning I do think they'll drop but I think it'll happen slowly so I don't know what you think my point of view is but you're probably wrong.

    So if prices adjust eventually, all is fine and the title of this thread and opening topic is false, right?

    You're funny. I'd say it will be fine if and when they adjust but it's not fine now.

    Great so if things will be fine, then all is good or not?

    It is literally impossible to change or balance or redesign things without short term effects on the market. As such any complaining is pointless.

    If it's short term by any given definition of short term then yes. However there is no guarantee these are short term effects.

    Anyway if you read my post again you'll see I'm not strongly opposed to the increase in costs, as I said:

    Again [these cost changes are] not necessarily a bad thing and we'll all adjust but it feels a little off when costs are doubled or tripled overnight.

    My contention is with the idea that we're all better off because of these changes. It didn't make things better, just different. Selling runes and sigils wasn't a problem for me. They could just have added recipes for runes and sigils that used existing materials (maybe even a use for luck) and I'd have been happy.

    Sure, it's different. A strong argument against this being an improvement is how gear works in this game with no huge increases (beside ascended boxes which also become obsolete eventually) but rather gradual value provided.

    I'm just in favor of waiting to see how all pans out while others are already in full alarm mode. The basic design of the new system will distribute wealth and value more evenly across all runes and sigils. How well this is balanced and if the community responds well to this we will see in the mid- and long-term.

  • Sarrs.4831Sarrs.4831 Member ✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    I'm just in favor of waiting to see how all pans out while others are already in full alarm mode.

    What do you mean, I don't have to immediately freak out about new changes and can wait for the dust to settle? I want to be mad, now!

  • Airdive.2613Airdive.2613 Member ✭✭✭

    @perilisk.1874 said:

    @Airdive.2613 said:
    Edit: Oh, I see, it takes 3 charms to craft one rune. Right, the number is closer to 200 then (though can be calculated more precisely when I'm bored, lol).

    Yeah, I think my example started off being some mishmash of rune and sigil terms. Well, it's still a big discrepancy in either case.

    A couple of observations.
    1. According to the wiki, different runes require different number of charms (1 or 3) and lucent crystals (12 or 4), which obscures direct comparison. Still, we can deduce that some runes are designed to be more "interconnected" with the whole rune market, requiring more universally available lucent motes, while some runes are designed to be more "expensive in their element" (potence etc.).
    2. If we would want to salvage "the worst rune available" and craft "the best rune available requiring 3 charms", then the expected "worst rune" value for salvaging to be profitable is indeed {3 times 1/(salvage chance) plus other material costs}, or less. Nevertheless, salvaging is a random experiment. According to my quick math, in the case of you salvaging 100 runes with the charm salvage chance of 2% (so expectation of 2 charms), there is about 32% probability of you actually getting 3 charms or more (along with lucent mote drops), which would likely be beneficial. I think it's enough to make some people decide they're lucky enough to try salvage-crafting.

  • The game has needed a new sink for ectos and T6 mats. Looks like a smart move by ANet, though it will be rough for a few weeks.

  • FrizzFreston.5290FrizzFreston.5290 Member ✭✭✭✭

    just FYI: Superior Sigils and Runes also have higher crafting requirements.

    old crafting recipe:

    1 ecto
    1 lodestone
    1 ori ingot.

    New recipe:

    10 ectos
    1 lodestone
    2 symbols
    100 Lucent Motes.

    Seems like they mostly want to drive ecto price up, and add a considerable sink to motes.

    Gotta say, i will miss salvaging my runes/sigils out. I kinda used them for upgrading leveling and new characters.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 17, 2018

    @Airdive.2613 said:
    According to my quick math, in the case of you salvaging 100 runes with the charm salvage chance of 2% (so expectation of 2 charms)

    From the observed drop chances so far, it seems to actually be not 2%, but 0.9%

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Great so if things will be fine, then all is good or not?

    If, but that's unlikely. First, the salvage rate is much lower compared to before (now you need several hundred of superior runes to craft one usable rune, before the ratio of obtaining vendor trash to usable ones was a way better). Second, the cost of other materials went up as well, because the new recipes use more of them (ecto) and more costly ones (like using maguuma lilies, freshwater pearls and azurite orbs instead of a single lodestone).

    Given all that, it's extremely unlikely the long term results won't end up way worse than before change.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Airdive.2613 said:
    According to my quick math, in the case of you salvaging 100 runes with the charm salvage chance of 2% (so expectation of 2 charms)

    From the observed drop chances so far, it seems to actually be not 2%, but 0.9%

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Great so if things will be fine, then all is good or not?

    If, but that's unlikely. First, the salvage rate is much lower compared to before (now you need several hundred of superior runes to craft one usable rune, before the ratio of obtaining vendor trash to usable ones was a way better). Second, the cost of other materials went up as well, because the new recipes use more of them (ecto) and more costly ones (like using maguuma lilies, freshwater pearls and azurite orbs instead of a single lodestone).

    Given all that, it's extremely unlikely the long term results won't end up way worse than before change.

    You are looking at this from a pure gold to rune/sigil perspective.

    An increase in cost of materials means that people selling said materials will gain more gold. At the same time a more even distribution of value will be achieved across all runes and Sigils. Meaning you won't be left with 1 out of 100 runes/Sigils being worth more than vendor trash.

    The salvage rate will remain exactly the same once Black Lion Salvage Kits are working as intended. The ability to craft the expensive runes should not impede this.

    As I said, the basic design of the system is sound. How good or bad salvage rates are chosen at this initial implementation time will tell. Currently the market and supply is no honest representation of the change since player behavior is heavily affected by the last patch.

  • Zaklex.6308Zaklex.6308 Member ✭✭✭✭

    ~snip~

    I know that most of you will disagree with term P2W here, but imo if you are without gold, either you spend $$ and have money now to change your build or you farm days thus you are far behind from those who paid real money. Don't get me wrong, farming isn't that bad (to some extent of course), but ask yourself, would you like to grind your kitten for few days every time meta builds change? No? Obviously it would be easier and time saving to buy gems, but wouldn't it be more fun to spend gems on what you want not what you need?

    ~snip~

    How about this instead, unless you're playing a mode that you think requires a meta build, just say screw it and play what you want(which is an original design philosophy behind this game). Then your suggestion that this game is P2W, which it is only in your mind, would be pointless.

    Yes...no...maybe...what do you want, can't you see I'm busy saving the world...AGAIN!

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 17, 2018

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    You are looking at this from a pure gold to rune/sigil perspective.

    An increase in cost of materials means that people selling said materials will gain more gold. At the same time a more even distribution of value will be achieved across all runes and Sigils. Meaning you won't be left with 1 out of 100 runes/Sigils being worth more than vendor trash.

    Nah, considering the salvage rates, the runes/sigils that were vendor trash before will be vendor trash now (well, not vendor trash, salvage trash, but trash anyway).

    And the materials i mentioned being the problem are the ones that are problematic even now, because they are hard to obtain due to very low drop rates. Yes, people selling pearls, lilies or giant eyes will earn more, but those were already wort a lot and didn't need that increase. For everyone else however (so, a huge majority), it will be a net negative.

    The salvage rate will remain exactly the same once Black Lion Salvage Kits are working as intended. The ability to craft the expensive runes should not impede this.

    I'm pretty sure that the runes salvaged with black lion kits were a minority out of all available on TP. There's still a ton of people using masters/mystics for exotics, because they simply do not have any black lions. The influx of runes to TP from salvage is going to drop really, really hard.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    You are looking at this from a pure gold to rune/sigil perspective.

    An increase in cost of materials means that people selling said materials will gain more gold. At the same time a more even distribution of value will be achieved across all runes and Sigils. Meaning you won't be left with 1 out of 100 runes/Sigils being worth more than vendor trash.

    Nah, considering the salvage rates, the runes/sigils that were vendor trash before will be vendor trash now (well, not vendor trash, salvage trash, but trash anyway).

    Yes but salvage trash which has a chance to provide crafting materials for useful runes/sigils.

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    And the materials i mentioned being the problem are the ones that are problematic even now, because they are hard to obtain due to very low drop rates. Yes, people selling pearls, lilies or giant eyes will earn more, but those were already wort a lot and didn't need that increase. For everyone else however (so, a huge majority), it will be a net negative.

    I doubt the majority of supply comes from farmers here, but yes, these materials will not be a benefit to everyone becoming more expensive.

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    The salvage rate will remain exactly the same once Black Lion Salvage Kits are working as intended. The ability to craft the expensive runes should not impede this.

    I'm pretty sure that the runes salvaged with black lion kits were a minority out of all available on TP. There's still a ton of people using masters/mystics for exotics, because they simply do not have any black lions. The influx of runes to TP from salvage is going to drop really, really hard.

    Possible, but if people seriously used inferior salvage kits to get high value Runes and Sigils (2g+) then all that has changed is that now the chance of failure is getting priced in (instead of not getting the rune/sigil in the past).

    The interesting question is how the salvage rates compare to the past direct supply. Obviously not all runes/sigils were entering the market (since some would not get retrieved with master kits) which now experience a 100% salvage rate.

  • Symbol and charm salvage rates do seem absurdly low. But wisdom also dictates we give it a little longer than ~5 days before we say it's broken or not viable and the rate needs to be bumped up.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 17, 2018

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    You are looking at this from a pure gold to rune/sigil perspective.

    An increase in cost of materials means that people selling said materials will gain more gold. At the same time a more even distribution of value will be achieved across all runes and Sigils. Meaning you won't be left with 1 out of 100 runes/Sigils being worth more than vendor trash.

    Nah, considering the salvage rates, the runes/sigils that were vendor trash before will be vendor trash now (well, not vendor trash, salvage trash, but trash anyway).

    Yes but salvage trash which has a chance to provide crafting materials for useful runes/sigils.

    Yes, but i already factored that in in my arguments The salvage rates of the needed materials are lower than the former trash to good runes/sigils ratio. Much lower.

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    The salvage rate will remain exactly the same once Black Lion Salvage Kits are working as intended. The ability to craft the expensive runes should not impede this.

    I'm pretty sure that the runes salvaged with black lion kits were a minority out of all available on TP. There's still a ton of people using masters/mystics for exotics, because they simply do not have any black lions. The influx of runes to TP from salvage is going to drop really, really hard.

    Possible, but if people seriously used inferior salvage kits to get high value Runes and Sigils (2g+) then all that has changed is that now the chance of failure is getting priced in (instead of not getting the rune/sigil in the past).

    No, because the lower kits will now create materials, not runes. And i already mentioned how that source has a much worse rate than the original one.

    The interesting question is how the salvage rates compare to the past direct supply. Obviously not all runes/sigils were entering the market (since some would not get retrieved with master kits) which now experience a 100% salvage rate.

    They are way worse. I know that, because i happen to salvage everything and keep the runes (both trash and good ones). Thus, i can tell you that the rate of trash to good ones was much lower (better) than 100 to 1. While now you need to salvage on average a hundred runes/sigils to get one charm/symbol (of which for the meta runes/sigils you need more than one for crafting).

    So, salvage rate alone will result in lowered supply and increased price, and that's even before we consider the changes to other materials, that on average were increased as well, and now often use more rare and highly problematic ones.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • I have played with this new stuff for three days now, and I feel grim. I bought a stack of something for the "control" and I think I got three....only three.
    We shall see though.

  • @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    You are looking at this from a pure gold to rune/sigil perspective.

    An increase in cost of materials means that people selling said materials will gain more gold. At the same time a more even distribution of value will be achieved across all runes and Sigils. Meaning you won't be left with 1 out of 100 runes/Sigils being worth more than vendor trash.

    Nah, considering the salvage rates, the runes/sigils that were vendor trash before will be vendor trash now (well, not vendor trash, salvage trash, but trash anyway).

    Yes but salvage trash which has a chance to provide crafting materials for useful runes/sigils.

    Yes, but i already factored that in in my arguments The salvage rates of the needed materials are lower than the former trash to good runes/sigils ratio. Much lower.

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    The salvage rate will remain exactly the same once Black Lion Salvage Kits are working as intended. The ability to craft the expensive runes should not impede this.

    I'm pretty sure that the runes salvaged with black lion kits were a minority out of all available on TP. There's still a ton of people using masters/mystics for exotics, because they simply do not have any black lions. The influx of runes to TP from salvage is going to drop really, really hard.

    Possible, but if people seriously used inferior salvage kits to get high value Runes and Sigils (2g+) then all that has changed is that now the chance of failure is getting priced in (instead of not getting the rune/sigil in the past).

    No, because the lower kits will now create materials, not runes. And i already mentioned how that source has a much worse rate than the original one.

    The interesting question is how the salvage rates compare to the past direct supply. Obviously not all runes/sigils were entering the market (since some would not get retrieved with master kits) which now experience a 100% salvage rate.

    They are way worse. I know that, because i happen to salvage everything and keep the runes (both trash and good ones). Thus, i can tell you that the rate of trash to good ones was much lower (better) than 100 to 1. While now you need to salvage on average a hundred runes/sigils to get one charm/symbol (of which for the meta runes/sigils you need more than one for crafting).

    So, salvage rate alone will result in lowered supply and increased price, and that's even before we consider the changes to other materials, that on average were increased as well, and now often use more rare and highly problematic ones.

    -----snip
    While now you need to salvage on average a hundred runes/sigils to get one charm/symbol (of which for the meta runes/sigils you need more than one for crafting).
    ----finish

    Exactly this. This is the odds I got with my salvaging as well. 250 sigils of something yielded only three thingys of control.

    Anet needs to tune things or I see bad things arising.
    Lisa.

  • @OtakuModeEngage.8679 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Yes, the market should never have to adapt 3 days into a patch.

    No one is storing materials currently thus reducing supply to the market thus driving up prices.

    Let's all freak out AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH.

    That's not the case. The cost will drop as players stop hoarding the new symbols and charms, however, the price drop will not be significant, as even the basic, previously cheap, runes now use expensive mats such as Globs of Ectoplasm, and other runes require multiple of the "cheaper" runes to craft. The price to craft will still cost more than they currently cost to buy on TP.

    ----snip
    That's not the case. The cost will drop as players stop hoarding the new symbols and charms
    ---finish
    By the six, people are hoarding because they can already foresee the future prices and future availability of these things if Anet does not do something about the drop rate. It is not pretty.

  • Hmm guidy just burned 100 sunless, got 13 potence. Jelly.

  • so whats the drop rate for symbols/charms? I heard its something like 1.3% lol? plus salvage kit type doesn't matter.

    The horror...…….the horror...…….the horror...…….

  • serenitycat.4623serenitycat.4623 Member ✭✭
    edited November 17, 2018

    So , how is it not BROKEN that Azurite Orbs currently do not have a regular drop rate from any "farmable" source ( since you need multiple orbs , for say , just to make 1 amalgamated gemstone) ???
    By farmable source I mean , an ememy drop or a node you can mine/gather- preferably not locked behind something like Fractals which not all players run. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Azurite_Orb
    And that's just ONE example of problems with the rune sigil crafting...... I, personally, can definitely see where there are things that need to be corrected with this.

  • @serenitycat.4623 said:
    So , how is it not BROKEN that Azurite Orbs currently do not have a regular drop rate from any "farmable" source ( since you need multiple orbs , for say , just to make 1 amalgamated gemstone) ???
    By farmable source I mean , an ememy drop or a node you can mine/gather- preferably not locked behind something like Fractals which not all players run. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Azurite_Orb
    And that's just ONE example of problems with the rune sigil crafting...... I, personally, can definitely see where there are things that need to be corrected with this.

    They really should let Jewelers promote Azurite Crystals into Orbs.

  • Eloc Freidon.5692Eloc Freidon.5692 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I'm plugging in the argument that the amount of symbols and charms isn't sustainable to the market. There will come a time that the runes and sigils (uncommon and rare) will disappear entirely from the TP because the only way to acquire new ones is to craft them. No one will want to waste their symbols/charms on anything but Superior since. And the amount of gear I've salvaged doesn't produce them at any rate.

    Symbols and Charms drop too rarely, 80% with silver-fed isn't actually 80%. Let sigils and runes drop normally like before and just let us salvage those if we want.

  • Gentle Reminder: This is the thread in which you should place your feedback about changes to runes and sigils. There are certain threads that speak exclusively about a specific rune or sigil, and for the most part they're being left to stand alone (to avoid a merge that muddies the conversation). However, general feedback is best here, and we appreciate your sharing your thoughts in this thread whenever possible.

    One exception I can think of is threads that speak to changes and how they will impact a specific profession. Those would probably best to shared in that profession's subforum, because that's a very specific conversation that deserves the specialized audience for that topic. But those sorts of comments are also welcome here, if you'd prefer.

    Thanks.

    Gaile Gray
    Communications Manager: ArenaNet
    Fansite & Guild Relations; In-Game Events; Community Showcase Live

  • This, IMHO, like any other stat/gear/upgrade balance is not a balance at all. In few weeks there will be a crystallization of handful of viable builds and the rest will be proclaimed as trash, cancer...etc.

    This is just a cash-in on upgrade extractors as classic extracting would have worked as well. It is sad how Anet and Nexon ruin the backbone of the game every few months but here we are...I am just glad I have a hoard of Sigils an Runes stashed away.

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Its a wash revert them and start over. Get devs who know the game better stop spraining your worker base. The left hand has no ideal what the right hand is doing in Anet organization.

    See ELE forms and you will get my views.

  • @Jski.6180 said:
    Its a wash revert them and start over.

    It hasn't even been a week. It's too early to say that. The market is in flux right now. Give it a month or two and then if it's still terrible, then they should consider bumping up the salvage chance for symbols and charms.

  • I think it's ridiculously stupid that I can't extract upgrades from gear without a Black Lion Salvage Kit or an Upgrade Extractor.

    I used to be able to do it with cheap, merchant-bought salvage kits, and now you expect me to use cash shop items to do it? What? How is that in any way better than the old system?

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    One thing that I dislike about the rune/sigil change is how slow "salvage all" is now. It's probably because it does extra calculation on items (to check the sigil/rune then salvage it) but there is a very noticeable pausing when you salvage lots of items using the "salvage all". I hope this can be fixed to make salvaging as fast as it used to be because clearing tons of bags now is annoying.

  • Rhiannon.1726Rhiannon.1726 Member ✭✭✭

    @Emberstone.2904 said:
    I think it's ridiculously stupid that I can't extract upgrades from gear without a Black Lion Salvage Kit or an Upgrade Extractor.

    I used to be able to do it with cheap, merchant-bought salvage kits, and now you expect me to use cash shop items to do it? What? How is that in any way better than the old system?

    Upgrades that I extracted from gear with a normal salvage kit were just vendor trash. If I wanted to have the upgrade (because the rune/sigil was expensive) I always use the Black Lion Salvage Kit.

  • @Rhiannon.1726 said:

    @Emberstone.2904 said:
    I think it's ridiculously stupid that I can't extract upgrades from gear without a Black Lion Salvage Kit or an Upgrade Extractor.

    I used to be able to do it with cheap, merchant-bought salvage kits, and now you expect me to use cash shop items to do it? What? How is that in any way better than the old system?

    Upgrades that I extracted from gear with a normal salvage kit were just vendor trash. If I wanted to have the upgrade (because the rune/sigil was expensive) I always use the Black Lion Salvage Kit.

    I would rather suffer an 80% chance on a 15 silver Master Salvage Kit than use a cash shop item to salvage my runes.

    The fact that you can ONLY salvage out runes with cash shop items now is nothing short of predatory.

  • Etterwyn.5263Etterwyn.5263 Member ✭✭✭

    @Emberstone.2904 said:

    @Rhiannon.1726 said:

    @Emberstone.2904 said:
    I think it's ridiculously stupid that I can't extract upgrades from gear without a Black Lion Salvage Kit or an Upgrade Extractor.

    I used to be able to do it with cheap, merchant-bought salvage kits, and now you expect me to use cash shop items to do it? What? How is that in any way better than the old system?

    Upgrades that I extracted from gear with a normal salvage kit were just vendor trash. If I wanted to have the upgrade (because the rune/sigil was expensive) I always use the Black Lion Salvage Kit.

    I would rather suffer an 80% chance on a 15 silver Master Salvage Kit than use a cash shop item to salvage my runes.

    The fact that you can ONLY salvage out runes with cash shop items now is nothing short of predatory.

    One man's predation is another man's profit. :'(

    WvW™ - where you find more Red Rings of Death than an Xbox repair facility.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 18, 2018

    @CETheLucid.3964 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:
    Its a wash revert them and start over.

    It hasn't even been a week. It's too early to say that. The market is in flux right now. Give it a month or two and then if it's still terrible, then they should consider bumping up the salvage chance for symbols and charms.

    It's not only symbols and charms. It's the whole recipes.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Izyuss.6423Izyuss.6423 Member ✭✭
    edited November 19, 2018

    @Gaile Gray.6029 said:
    Gentle Reminder: This is the thread in which you should place your feedback about changes to runes and sigils. There are certain threads that speak exclusively about a specific rune or sigil, and for the most part they're being left to stand alone (to avoid a merge that muddies the conversation). However, general feedback is best here, and we appreciate your sharing your thoughts in this thread whenever possible.

    One exception I can think of is threads that speak to changes and how they will impact a specific profession. Those would probably best to shared in that profession's subforum, because that's a very specific conversation that deserves the specialized audience for that topic. But those sorts of comments are also welcome here, if you'd prefer.

    Thanks.

    I have a suggestion; Rune of Rebirth, the bonus 6th almost never save you from being downed because it just give a aproximatily 1980 barrier. i suggest give it a 1 second of invulnerability and the barrier, this way the bonus will be more effective and you will have time to react .

  • Mat H.2859Mat H.2859 Member ✭✭
    edited November 19, 2018

    I'm not sure if this has already been posted but those runes that summon something when you get into combat will summon something when you take fall damage. Plus summons will disappear when you mount up.
    Edit: Tested it on an environment without hostiles and it was not due to getting fall damage I was probably still considered to be in combat even though I wasn't fighting anything at that time. I apologize for the misinformation. Though it would be better if it summons on hit instead like the Rune of Durability.
    Edit 2: This time I wasn't in combat, there weren't any enemies near me and I took fall damage in open world and my Rune of the Ogre summoned a Rock Dog. I suppose taking fall damage in a city doesn't cause the summon but in other places it does.

  • Vagrant.7206Vagrant.7206 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Drop rates for some of the symbols may need to be adjusted (I've gotten maybe 2 symbols in the past week), but it's hard to say this early on. Could just be the early market rush that's inflating prices.

    The great god Lagki demands sacrifice!

  • I know it's been a week, but here is my two cents on the changes as a raider who mains support classes. Unsurprisingly, this will mostly focus on the changes to the sigil of concentration.
    So, when the changes were announced, the stated reason for changing sigil of concentration was that it was "mandatory in high-end PvE content, without any way to replace it." Ironically, it actually was totally possible to run, for example, a chaos chronomancer with runes of leadership and no sigil of concentration. This was viable (if all you cared about was your group having boons), it just wasn't optimal because it required the raider to get a lot more of their boon duration from their gear, effecting their dps. And yes, a lot of raiders were quite judgmental of people who did it. With the nerf to runes of leadership and SoC, every chrono must now run chaos as opposed to other previously viable options just to have 100% boon duration. With this update boon druids must trade out more Magi's gear for Harrier's and therefore have even less healing power. The rune and sigil changes took a total of 28% boon duration (23 from SoC, 5 from RoL) away from most chronomancer builds which must now be found in gear. That's 420 concentration. That's a lot of potential flexibility gone. Where is this supposed "way to replace it"?

    TLDR: If the goal of this update was to promote diversity in the builds of raiders and fractal runners, Anet failed. (And I'll happily talk at length on how that is a silly goal which is ultimately doomed to failure.) If the goal was to make a bunch of adults whine like children about how Anet hates us, good show.

  • On another note, Sigils of Concentration are expensive, and I recognize that Anet doesn't directly control TP prices, but they do control drop rates and the reason SoCs are expensive is that freshwater pearls are quite rare. When said sigil was pretty powerful, it didn't feel so bad to spend 40 or 50 gold buying or crafting one. Now it feels really bad.

  • Ana.2415Ana.2415 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 21, 2018

    Nvm wrong thread. -delete-

  • geist.4126geist.4126 Member ✭✭✭

    Superior Rune of the Defender is way too strong in WvW now. It was already strong before, but you put it to an completely absurd level.

    NEW:
    (1): +25 Toughness
    (2): +35 Healing
    (3): +50 Toughness
    (4): +65 Healing
    (5): +100 Toughness
    (6): +10% Maximum Health; heal for 5% of your maximum health after blocking an attack. (Cooldown: 1 Second)

    OLD:
    (1): +25 Healing
    (2): When you block a foe's attack, gain 1 second of Regeneration.png Regeneration.
    (3): +50 Healing
    (4): When you use a heal skill, gain Aegis.png Aegis for 5 seconds. (Cooldown: 10s)
    (5): +100 Healing
    (6): When you block a foe's attack, heal yourself. (Cooldown: 30s)

    On my warrior I'm unstoppable with that, especially when running the defense trait line and
    1) https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dogged_March
    2) https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Adrenal_Health
    3) https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Lesser_Endure_Pain

    With being a Spellbreaker it gets even stronger thanks to the broken "Full counter" which procs a passive regeneration even if the opponent is smart enough to not attack you.

  • One more thing, I know other people have already expressed this opinion, but the more people who say it, the less it looks like a minority opinion. The changes to rune/sigil crafting and salvaging feel like a blatant cash grab. First you make runes and sigils more expensive by extra adding materials to their crafting cost (and from my observation over the last week or so, symbols and charms have an very low drop rate) and then you remove any non-cash shop method of retrieving them. And that feels bad, bad in a "maybe I don't want to give this company my money any more" kind of way.

    Additionally, the changes are going to have a permanent negative impact on the cost of runes and sigils on the trading post. Yes, the market will stabilize, but the prices will still be noticeably higher, both because symbols and charms are kind of rare, and because the runes and sigils themselves will become more rare now that people won't be getting them when they salvage random loot! I know Arena net doesn't directly control the prices on the TP, but it's still annoying when they do things that are obviously going to effect it.

    All this said, i really wanted to like the whole salvaging runes thing, it was nice to think i'd have something to do with all the little minor runes one gets from green gear. Ultimately all that happened is that the craftable ones are more costly to craft, which doesn't feel good at all.

    I'm going to stop complaining now and make some suggestions:

    • Make at least master salvage kits able to retrieve upgrades again.
    • Alternatively, add some other non-cash-shop way to retrieve upgrades (even if it is just a chance to), this is less preferable.
    • Increase the drop rates of charms and symbols. A lot. Most popular crafted runes and sigils already had some relatively rare component needed to craft them in the form of a lodestone.
    • Better idea, do away with charms and symbols all together and have a comparable chance of salvaging shards, cores and lodestones of the relevant type from runes and sigils.
    • Revert all the recipes and use charms and symbols exclusively to craft those runes and sigils that were previously uncraftable, like runes of leadership, sigils of force, etc.
    • Please for the love of all that is holy give chronos their boon duration back, weapon swapping isn't that hard, and every boon support build still has a sigil of conc, you didn't change anything for the better, you just made people sad.
  • Lambent.6375Lambent.6375 Member ✭✭✭

    I like that there is a chance we can get something valuable from salvaging greens(with runes) and hope that they add even more uses for charms and symbols so prices don't drop.

    @FOX.3582 said:
    A freaking chair. Woah. I personally can't wait to buy a gem store CHAIR, so all my characters can SIT around in Tyria while other players see me, SITTING there, looking like a [email protected] ...

  • So if I understand this correctly the silver fed salvage-0-matic is now garbage? It says it has an 80% chance to recover upgrades, is it broken? I have salvaged tons of rares and not one upgrade returned. Shouldn't this be corrected or a refund/exchange available?

  • Hey I got an idea, how about adding rune and sigil bags to loot tables? That way we can still get runes and sigils without crafting them AND they won't be clogging up too much inventory until they're wanted.

  • The description of Rune of the Water given in the Nov. 13 Game Update Notes does not match the description of the Rune in game anymore, nor the wiki page. Specifically, the in-game Rune says the 6th bonus is to remove a condition (from self and allies) after using a healing skill, while the update notes say the bonus is to heal self and allies. I believe the Rune in game previously had the latter.

    I wonder what's here.

  • @Sneakr.3679 said:
    So if I understand this correctly the silver fed salvage-0-matic is now garbage? It says it has an 80% chance to recover upgrades, is it broken? I have salvaged tons of rares and not one upgrade returned. Shouldn't this be corrected or a refund/exchange available?

    Far from it. It's the best salvage kit now if you intend to farm lucent motes with the best chance at salvaging charms and symbols from your loot. What you're thinking of is probably salvaging from actual sigils and runes, in which case the kit doesn't matter.

    All that matters when salvaging a rune or sigil directly is the quality of the rune or sigil (minor, major, superior).

    Though the salvage rate from it altogether is rather abysmal and the time for attaining trash runes and sigils on the cheap has passed (unless you have an endless extractor, then you're rolling around money).

    Personally I just gather up my loot as I always have and use silver-fed on everything. Already gathered stacks of motes and a humble collection of symbols and charms by just doing what I always have.

    I still feel symbol and charm salvage rates are a bit too low but it's still early to say that's a thing and not just my desire to have lots of all of the things right now.

  • Rasimir.6239Rasimir.6239 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @AmaraAnthia.4130 said:
    One more thing, I know other people have already expressed this opinion, but the more people who say it, the less it looks like a minority opinion.

    Just because people keep repeating an opinion doesn't make it a fact.

    @AmaraAnthia.4130 said:
    Additionally, the changes are going to have a permanent negative impact on the cost of runes and sigils on the trading post. Yes, the market will stabilize, but the prices will still be noticeably higher

    And that is a bad thing because?

    The main supply of runes and sigils on the trading post in the future will not come from straight extraction but from crafting. All of the lucent motes, charms and sigils we gather while salvaging will feed into said crafting, thus spreading the profit much more evenly among the playerbase rather than giving decent coin to the few lucky enough to loot equipment with the upgrade of the week while only handing vendor trash to everybody else.

    @AmaraAnthia.4130 said:
    All this said, i really wanted to like the whole salvaging runes thing, it was nice to think i'd have something to do with all the little minor runes one gets from green gear. Ultimately all that happened is that the craftable ones are more costly to craft, which doesn't feel good at all.

    We're still early into the new system. Most people have no idea yet how the system will balance out, many keep the materials in storage for now to see how prices will settle. Once people get used to the new system, more crafting materials will enter the market and prices will stabilize, probably in a pretty similar spot to where the sought-after runes and sigils used to be, with a few that are more (or in a very few cases less) readily accessible now, but that's natural fluctuation that we had before (depending on balance and consequently meta changes).

    @AmaraAnthia.4130 said:
    I'm going to stop complaining now and make some suggestions:

    Try to let go of the thought that runes and sigils are meant to be available by directly extracting them from drops. That's not how the system works any more. There's a backdoor for those people who want to switch equipment without loosing valuable upgrades (blsk and upgrade extractor), but the main source of runes and sigils from now going forward will be crafting. Any method that easily allows you to circumvent the crafting system directly has an impact on how well the crafting system will work at all (as it directly influences how many players take part in it, either by crafting or by producing crafting materials to feed into the economy).

    I'm positive that ANet will keep a close look on the salvage rates and how the value of lucent motes, charms and symbols develops, and they have shown before that they are more than willing to act if a system like this doesn't work as they expect, by tweaking the drop rates of the materials in question.

  • LucianDK.8615LucianDK.8615 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Chronos needed their nerf, they were way too good. And it gives heralds a role again with the boon buff facet of nature.

  • Extacy.6192Extacy.6192 Member ✭✭
    edited November 22, 2018

    @Gaile Gray.6029

    Rune of the Pack tooltip is inconsistent with all the other runes.

    It's the only rune which states "after entering combat". It should be "when entering combat".

    Additionally, please consider changing Rune of the Pack to its old "on being" hit proc and reduce the might stacks therefore.
    Or give us another way to reapply them while in combat. Same with Rune of Rage.

    In this state of the game these runes are otherwise not competitive. Nearly no one will use them. That's a shame, was one of my favorite rune.

  • Imo the best solution is to change it so that when you salvage gear you recieve runes and sigils as you used to, you then have the option to use them, sell them, or salvage them again into their crafting components.

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