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Increasing TTK, Undoing Old Split Changes and Eliminating Skill Splitting


Swagger.1459

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@Mysteriax.6049 said:Definitely in support of seeing a base health increase in WvW to counter power creep.

Yes, and maybe someone, like our awesome dev @"Ben Phongluangtham.1065", could get the team to talk about this thread!

There are a number of crazy things, and crazy damage numbers, going on in WvW, but this is just one simple example of the crazy that players face...

https://youtu.be/vF75Qv-gQIQ

I feel the dev team can keep this crazy type of stuff in wvw, but re-evaluating some other elements (mentioned in the op) would be healthy for players of all skill and experience levels.

All we can do is dream for a better tomorrow in wvw, Mysteriax, and good old Ben may be our only hope!

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@"Swagger.1459" said:FOR WvW ONLY, suggestions to increase the Time To Kill (TTK) and help make battles more hard fought

1- Increase base Health of professions. 30k for Ele, Guard and Thief. 35k for Engi, Mes, Ranger and Rev. 40k for Necro and War.

2- Decrease all weapon and slot skill cool-downs by 50% to help maintain the fast paced skill decision making combat.

3- Reduce critical hit modifiers by 25%.

4- Double the health and damage output of NPC sentries, guards and lords.

5- Increase siege damage on players by 25%.

I agree that the "time to kill" should be increased for WvW, but by how much, that's always subjective and controversial: some likes it to one-shoot or end it swift, while others like it to last a while, so both sides had enough time to react and isn't a matter of latency only, but a deep knowledge of the game and a level of mastery. Anet must find a good middle ground: allow swift ends, but always balance it with extreme risk - if the attack fails, no get away & reset, and if that isn't possible, then don't allow fast kills.

There is a need to increase base health with about 30%, more or less, because the damage increase from ascended and expansion content.

Still, simple solutions are easier to implement and further adjust, without creating a mess that always makes more people leave, since always someone will be upset because of a change. Instead of the above, I propose something like this:

  1. increase base health in WvW with 20-40%
  2. reduce damage of hard hitting skills by 50% or even 66%, but reduce cooldown & resource involved (rev for example) by about the same amount

I would be against change to crit modifiers, without similar adjustment to condi damage as well - but both of these are very sensitive and controversial issues, so better avoid going there.Also siege damage is already way too high vs. glass builds, should be adjusted to ignore armor and deal a percent of health damage instead, so can be properly balanced to hit hard enough, but not kill in 1-2 shots, while barely doing damage to others.

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  • 4 weeks later...

@Ben Phongluangtham.1065

@DeceiverX.8361 said:30k+ backstabs in permastealth SA with absolutely zero risk lol.

Like... this was so easy not to screw up and somehow they still managed to lol.

Inb4 backstab nerfed next patch in the wake of D/P stealth-camping Deadeye.

...Maybe time for the team to consider the suggested changes in the op for wvw (and spvp too)... Just using that 1 quote, but there are extreme damage numbers floating around, and there needs to be some counter-balancing factors. Think these global changes would be less resource intensive, but effective.

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It would be boring if nobody died when it’s zerg vs zerg. They need to rebalance everything but that would probably take too much work at this point.

Imo most annoying thing in WvW is getting blown up or nearly blown up 100-0 from someone in stealth/invis...

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@Swagger.1459 said:Giving an individual player the build tools to kill another player with 1 hit, or even in a few seconds with combos, is not healthy for this mode... This low TTK issue is also magnified when you have large numbers of players facing off against other large numbers of players too... So I’d like to present a few, FOR WvW ONLY, suggestions to increase the Time To Kill (TTK) and help make battles more hard fought, with more give and take to them. This will not screw over PvE or SPvP because, as I typed, it's FOR WvW ONLY.

1- Increase base Health of professions. 30k for Ele, Guard and Thief. 35k for Engi, Mes, Ranger and Rev. 40k for Necro and War.

2- Decrease all weapon and slot skill cool-downs by 50% to help maintain the fast paced skill decision making combat.

3- Reduce critical hit modifiers by 25%.

4- Double the health and damage output of NPC sentries, guards and lords.

5- Increase siege damage on players by 25%.

This would only make condi viable in wvw

no.

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@apharma.3741 said:I agree the Time To Kill needs to go up but not on how to do it, the healing from skills/traits needs to go down about 20%, the cool downs of defensive skills need to go up by about 20% and damage right across the board needs to go down by about 20%.

Things I have had happen today:Rev: 8k Coalescence of Ruin my day at 0 range for 8k, 16k (all my health) at max range. 5k Auto. 9k precision strike which is spammable. 5k phase traversal which is now unblockable.Thief: 2.6k steal into 8k Larcenous Strike, repeatedly. 4-6k auto as a single hit from the auto.Mesmer: 6k Mind Wrack x2 with another 2.5-2.7k x3 Mirror Blade and follow up 3.5k Mindstab and I can do this a lot more now. 3-4k burn ticks from stealth. Burst 20 confusion onto someone through repeated blind and CoF.Necro: 6 of them just filling every inch of space near them with pulsing AoE and corrupts where you get 14 torment if you're not running away fast enough.Guardian: 100%, 20%, 100% again, 30% oh no wait 100% again.Warrior: Taking damage, 50%, Immune, Immune, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, full health now because 5 people won't stop attacking the bubble, oh wait we don't know when he's using full counter because it always shows.Engineer: 7 stacks of burn, oh sheee, cleanse and off he rocket boots into the distance. Holoforge, bam, 6k, 5k, 4k, AoE bam bam bam flashy lights and wooooosh rocket boots.Druid: Seriously are they all minstrels now because I crit these for 2k on full zerk glass mesmer as above and they just jump around stealthing and running away while letting the pet do the work.

All this is just some examples of the silly stuff I run into or in the case of mesmer what I can do. Damage is far too high and the problems started with the HoT creep but the problem has also had it's insidious side. ANet have been buffing weapons and skills people don't use, sure some were needed (looking at you signet of water) but there's creep happening in areas where they were fine it's just something better came along in the expansion replacing it entirely.

At the same time we got minstrels giving insane healing the game wasn't designed to have, we have skills that just flat heal people for insane amounts and high amounts of defensive skills or high uptime of defensive buffs.

Remember when the mark of a good player was that they knew what combo fields were and how to use them? Now I barely see anyone using them, you have to go to PvP to see that kind of stuff and only really from a top streamer.

Oh good list. I do think that overall damage output needs to be nerfed harder than 20%, and I also think boon spam needs to be nerfed into the ground.

The best way to go about this is to start reducing the amount of things that skills and traits do. A skill might deal reasonable damage, but if it also dazes opponents, grants you a strong boon, and is on short CD then its still vastly overperforming.

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@MUDse.7623 said:

@joneirikb.7506 said:Agree with those that say we should rather look at reducing the power creep of the elite-spez etc, rather than messing with all the other stats.

I'm imaging that stopping making damage modifiers stack, and only use the highest one would be an interesting change. Though I could be wrong.

would result in a very dull bunker meta and only condition damage in offensive builds.

It wouldn't be the only change, but the general idea would be to stop damage buffs from stacking, rather increase each damage buff, and make it more about managing upkeeps of them rather than stacking on top of each others. That way ANet could (if they wanted to) keep the power creep more in check, by having a max damage +X% and restrict the uptime. (Unfortunately I'm not good enough to be able to pull good numbers from my head, so I won't try)

I'd also like to see just about everything being reduced a bit in general, the game is on steroids compared to before HOT.

@apharma.3741 +1

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@joneirikb.7506 said:

@joneirikb.7506 said:Agree with those that say we should rather look at reducing the power creep of the elite-spez etc, rather than messing with all the other stats.

I'm imaging that stopping making damage modifiers stack, and only use the highest one would be an interesting change. Though I could be wrong.

would result in a very dull bunker meta and only condition damage in offensive builds.

It wouldn't be the only change, but the general idea would be to stop damage buffs from stacking, rather increase each damage buff, and make it more about managing upkeeps of them rather than stacking on top of each others. That way ANet could (if they wanted to) keep the power creep more in check, by having a max damage +X% and restrict the uptime. (Unfortunately I'm not good enough to be able to pull good numbers from my head, so I won't try)

I'd also like to see just about everything being reduced a bit in general, the game is on steroids compared to before HOT.

the problem is we need stacked damage to be able to perform burst combos able to take down bunkers. beause sustained damage is lower then sutained healing when fighting a bunker with tons of damage mitigation /boons etc. if you just remove stacking from direct damage we would deal tons of more damage with conditions.if there would be alot less healing and less boons then maybedo you remember good times when blasting fields was^actually good for healing? sure there was alot less damage around, but now there is so much healing no one would bother with a water field.

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@MUDse.7623 said:

@joneirikb.7506 said:Agree with those that say we should rather look at reducing the power creep of the elite-spez etc, rather than messing with all the other stats.

I'm imaging that stopping making damage modifiers stack, and only use the highest one would be an interesting change. Though I could be wrong.

would result in a very dull bunker meta and only condition damage in offensive builds.

It wouldn't be the only change, but the general idea would be to stop damage buffs from stacking, rather increase each damage buff, and make it more about managing upkeeps of them rather than stacking on top of each others. That way ANet could (if they wanted to) keep the power creep more in check, by having a max damage +X% and restrict the uptime. (Unfortunately I'm not good enough to be able to pull good numbers from my head, so I won't try)

I'd also like to see just about everything being reduced a bit in general, the game is on steroids compared to before HOT.

@"apharma.3741" +1

the problem is we need stacked damage to be able to perform burst combos able to take down bunkers. beause sustained damage is lower then sutained healing when fighting a bunker with tons of damage mitigation /boons etc. if you just remove stacking from direct damage we would deal tons of more damage with conditions.if there would be alot less healing and less boons then maybedo you remember good times when blasting fields was^actually good for healing? sure there was alot less damage around, but now there is so much healing no one would bother with a water field.

Probably didn't word myself very well, but basically we agree. I'd like to see all healing lowered, defensive skills on longer cooldowns, most attacks on lower cooldowns and/or with lower damage. Including having a bit less condition damage (and much less spammable). Etc.

In short: like it was in the first few years of GW2 before HOT came and put everything on stereoids because of "powercreep". The part with making damage bonuses non-stackable is just another thing to put on top of that.

Heck, I'd also love to see them taking more stats away from the weapon/armor/trinkets, and put more into the core stats, so we can't "extreme" stats as much as we can right now. Which would restrict a good bit of the worst bunkering and one-shotting as well.

Atm this game feels like playing Ikaruga, pick white or black, and get one-shot by the other, with scourge bullet hell.

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  • 6 months later...

The video I'm posting is of thief, but it is merely to highlight damage output vs a player's health... There are issues for players and devs across the board that could be alleviated by increasing player health... Please strongly consider making some positive changes by working on known issues that repel players from this mode, and cause a lot of unnecessary controversy for the player base.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8sKXTzwohrA

I also considered posting threads of complaints about damage output from power and condition builds, but I don't think I need to... Anyone who has followed the forums over 6 years knows the complaints about damage are ongoing, and something needs to be done.

TY

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Damage has crept up too high, but this is also because sustain is also stupidly high. Case in point: Firebrand.

Sometimes I swear a health bar doesn't even mean anything anymore in WvW, since you can get nuked for at least half in single attacks, and then healed all the way back up in a matter of moments. Bunkers are too tough to crack, glass does too much damage, and bruisers get neither for splitting their stats.

This is compounded when you start increasing the number of players. This is why we have Spellbreaker, because without Spellbreaker bubble, Firebrand/Firebrand parties or Firebrand/Scrapper parties will be nigh indestructible unless you greatly outnumber/outskill the opponent.

My solution for increasing TTK but avoiding unkillable zerg balls is to:A) Reduce spike damage. Lets lower those damage ratios or just add a global damage reduction in WvW.B) Diminishing returns on Healing. If you don't break combat, incoming healing is less effective on you. Your personal healing skill (but not traits) will diminish as well, but more slowly (to avoid bunker vs bunker stalemates, eventually no one will heal). This healing reduction will occur as you are healed. The penalty will recover out of combat,C) Increase base health of all classes, and increase the value of vitality. Since healing reduces as a battle rages on, vitality is more important as it extends your timer.D) Using mobility skills away from enemies or staying in stealth too long during combat increases your healing penalty. Running away or taken less risk gets penalized. Being an in fighter leads to more continued sustain.E) Return Deep Wound as a stacking condition, as a away to counter the increased vitality through sustained attacks. (https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Deep_Wound)

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Adding across the board changes like this or suggesting it shows how few people understand the problem or how to deal with it, they have NO idea this would break the game worse than it is now. As it stands you have builds that exist that you have to be full zerk to even kill, add in more HP and less crit/dmg and the only way you are going to kill those builds are in a 3vs1. Sweeping changes are a BAD idea when you are wanting to tame a few over performing builds.

@"Swagger.1459" said:The video I'm posting is of thief, but it is merely to highlight damage output vs a player's health... There are issues for players and devs across the board that could be alleviated by increasing player health... Please strongly consider making some positive changes by working on known issues that repel players from this mode, and cause a lot of unnecessary controversy for the player base.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8sKXTzwohrA

I also considered posting threads of complaints about damage output from power and condition builds, but I don't think I need to... Anyone who has followed the forums over 6 years knows the complaints about damage are ongoing, and something needs to be done.

TY

Except people who don't know classes, builds or how to play might think this is crazy, but its not. The HP pool of almost all of those people they killed were all zerk or close to it, that is the risk you play being high dmg, and look at his own HP pool, he got hit once and almost died. another thing to notice is most if not all looked like zerglings, not a dodge to be had, hell, he was dropping smoke field and stacking stealth RIGHT IN FRONT OF THEM. they still just ran along, a number of them who were not full zerk that were not one hit did nothing, they just kept running in a straight line, no dodging, didn't attack, no defensive skills or blocks or anything, might as well have been AFK players. He was picking targets well also, solo, or already in combat with someone else, not fighting specific classes etc. What is funny is that most of the classes he was killing also have access to stealth, engine, mes, DE etc and him with 14k HP would also be one shot. I will bet you he also has 4 times as much video of him being killed as well.

What you are seeing is players who are not aware, vs someone who knows their class/build. Now, not saying stealth has not been broken, and attacks from stealth that deal that much might need to be looked at, but that is only the tip of the issue, and just about every class is able to do something like this to other zerk classes. I was told I was being reported as a cheater because I 4vs1 a group and won, when really they were just face roll players, I am far from the best, so that is saying something.

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@TinkTinkPOOF.9201 said:Adding across the board changes like this or suggesting it shows how few people understand the problem or how to deal with it, they have NO idea this would break the game worse than it is now. As it stands you have builds that exist that you have to be full zerk to even kill, add in more HP and less crit/dmg and the only way you are going to kill those builds are in a 3vs1. Sweeping changes are a BAD idea when you are wanting to tame a few over performing builds.

@"Swagger.1459" said:The video I'm posting is of thief, but it is merely to highlight damage output vs a player's health... There are issues for players and devs across the board that could be alleviated by increasing player health... Please strongly consider making some positive changes by working on known issues that repel players from this mode, and cause a lot of unnecessary controversy for the player base.

I also considered posting threads of complaints about damage output from power and condition builds, but I don't think I need to... Anyone who has followed the forums over 6 years knows the complaints about damage are ongoing, and something needs to be done.

TY

Except people who don't know classes, builds or how to play might think this is crazy, but its not. The HP pool of almost all of those people they killed were all zerk or close to it, that is the risk you play being high dmg, and look at his own HP pool, he got hit once and almost died. another thing to notice is most if not all looked like zerglings, not a dodge to be had, hell, he was dropping smoke field and stacking stealth RIGHT IN FRONT OF THEM. they still just ran along, a number of them who were not full zerk that were not one hit did nothing, they just kept running in a straight line, no dodging, didn't attack, no defensive skills or blocks or anything, might as well have been AFK players. He was picking targets well also, solo, or already in combat with someone else, not fighting specific classes etc. What is funny is that most of the classes he was killing also have access to stealth, engine, mes, DE etc and him with 14k HP would also be one shot. I will bet you he also has 4 times as much video of him being killed as well.

What you are seeing is players who are not aware, vs someone who knows their class/build. Now, not saying stealth has not been broken, and attacks from stealth that deal that much might need to be looked at, but that is only the tip of the issue, and just about every class is able to do something like this to other zerk classes. I was told I was being reported as a cheater because I 4vs1 a group and won, when really they were just face roll players, I am far from the best, so that is saying something.

So you don't think reducing power creep, for both damage and defense, would be healthy for the game?

Can you explain why?

We can't reduce defense until we reduce offense.

  1. Make damage multipliers additive
  2. Reduce endurance regen traits such as adrenal implant by 20%
  3. Reduce all invulns durations by 1s
  4. Double all damage modifiers in pve
  5. Consider removing rune of adventure and energy sigil from pvp
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@"TinkTinkPOOF.9201" said:Adding across the board changes like this or suggesting it shows how few people understand the problem or how to deal with it, they have NO idea this would break the game worse than it is now. As it stands you have builds that exist that you have to be full zerk to even kill, add in more HP and less crit/dmg and the only way you are going to kill those builds are in a 3vs1. Sweeping changes are a BAD idea when you are wanting to tame a few over performing builds.

The idea came from 6 years of ongoing damage QQ, skill splits, global buff mechanics and the fact that CU will have the right approach to pvp combat... " we are not over fond of insta-gibbing. We want battles to be hard fought, with plenty of give and take. We will seek that sweet spot somewhere between ‘omg die already!’ and POOF insta-dead."...

Also, for reference...

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/Upcoming-Changes-to-Skills

“A message from the PvP Team:

Hey all,

We have a number of skill splits (and some global changes) that will be accompanying the launch of Season 5 next week. Read on to see what’s in store for December 13.Over the past few releases the PvP team has been working closely with the Skills team to implement some PvP-only skill splits. Moving forward the PvP team will have more opportunity to make these skill splits as we see fit. It’s important to understand that skill splits should not change the core functionality of a skill. Players should be able to use a skill in PvE and have it do relatively the same thing in PvP, though it may be more or less effective depending on the game mode. This means that when we are looking to split out a skill, the changes are limited to the following areas:

• Recharge• Damage multipliers• Healing multipliers• Number of conditions/boons applied• Duration of conditions/boons applied• Skill cost (energy and initiative)•

A lot can be done with these knobs, but there still will be cases where we identify a problem skill or trait that we feel cannot be addressed without a functional change. In these cases, we are continuing to work closely with the Skills team to find a solution that makes the most sense as a global change.”

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@RisenHowl.2419 said:

@TinkTinkPOOF.9201 said:Adding across the board changes like this or suggesting it shows how few people understand the problem or how to deal with it, they have NO idea this would break the game worse than it is now. As it stands you have builds that exist that you have to be full zerk to even kill, add in more HP and less crit/dmg and the only way you are going to kill those builds are in a 3vs1. Sweeping changes are a BAD idea when you are wanting to tame a few over performing builds.

@"Swagger.1459" said:The video I'm posting is of thief, but it is merely to highlight damage output vs a player's health... There are issues for players and devs across the board that could be alleviated by increasing player health... Please strongly consider making some positive changes by working on known issues that repel players from this mode, and cause a lot of unnecessary controversy for the player base.

I also considered posting threads of complaints about damage output from power and condition builds, but I don't think I need to... Anyone who has followed the forums over 6 years knows the complaints about damage are ongoing, and something needs to be done.

TY

Except people who don't know classes, builds or how to play might think this is crazy, but its not. The HP pool of almost all of those people they killed were all zerk or close to it, that is the risk you play being high dmg, and look at his own HP pool, he got hit once and almost died. another thing to notice is most if not all looked like zerglings, not a dodge to be had, hell, he was dropping smoke field and stacking stealth RIGHT IN FRONT OF THEM. they still just ran along, a number of them who were not full zerk that were not one hit did nothing, they just kept running in a straight line, no dodging, didn't attack, no defensive skills or blocks or anything, might as well have been AFK players. He was picking targets well also, solo, or already in combat with someone else, not fighting specific classes etc. What is funny is that most of the classes he was killing also have access to stealth, engine, mes, DE etc and him with 14k HP would also be one shot. I will bet you he also has 4 times as much video of him being killed as well.

What you are seeing is players who are not aware, vs someone who knows their class/build. Now, not saying stealth has not been broken, and attacks from stealth that deal that much might need to be looked at, but that is only the tip of the issue, and just about every class is able to do something like this to other zerk classes. I was told I was being reported as a cheater because I 4vs1 a group and won, when really they were just face roll players, I am far from the best, so that is saying something.

So you don't think reducing power creep, for both damage and defense, would be healthy for the game?

Can you explain why?

We can't reduce defense until we reduce offense.
  1. Make damage multipliers additive
  2. Reduce endurance regen traits such as adrenal implant by 20%
  3. Reduce all invulns durations by 1s
  4. Double all damage modifiers in pve
  5. Consider removing rune of adventure and energy sigil from pvp

Yes, yes you can reduce them, and you can buff offense. The problem is people are asking for sweeping changes, when the problems are over performing builds of given classes, and is not a simple "give everyone a huge HP buff", as that ignores the flip side of the "one shot" builds, you then end up with builds that are almost unkillable in the current meta, give them another 15-20k HP and you can forget it, it would ruin any sort of small scale, as the build would not be killable with just the HP boost, no less the crit dmg nerf AND adding a boost to personal healing skills. This is just LAZY, and will not work. If you have issues with the game or power creep (again, as I said, I agree there is), but point out specifics and how to fix them, not sweeping changes that would only make things worse.

This thread sounds like a turn WvW into a PvE match, skills don't do much dmg, so missing a dodge or block etc etc doesn't matter to much and OOHH!! Give us even more HP so planning rotations and bursts matter even less, you know what, let us just face tank everything please!

It would push things even more to condi, as its the only thing not nerfed dmg wise in the OP.

I mean THINK about it for a second, a ranger/SB etc with 35k BASE HP......BASE. Running close to 100% protection uptime, two invulnerable skills etc. And that would not even be the worse offender and can only think of the new builds that would be made. a BASE 40k Necro with barrier uptime, LOL, good luck, because the OP just buffed healing skills as well, so barrier becomes even more OP and without condi nerf as well, and the 50% reduction in skill CD time, I honestly don't think people know anything about other classes or builds before they suggest stuff like this.

Now could SOME classes have a rework on base HP? Or some specific classes be changed to where you can't trait all the dmg modifiers into a single build? Sure, but it is a complex issue and no one would be severed well by the sweeping HP creep suggested in the OP.

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@TinkTinkPOOF.9201 said:

@TinkTinkPOOF.9201 said:Adding across the board changes like this or suggesting it shows how few people understand the problem or how to deal with it, they have NO idea this would break the game worse than it is now. As it stands you have builds that exist that you have to be full zerk to even kill, add in more HP and less crit/dmg and the only way you are going to kill those builds are in a 3vs1. Sweeping changes are a BAD idea when you are wanting to tame a few over performing builds.

@"Swagger.1459" said:The video I'm posting is of thief, but it is merely to highlight damage output vs a player's health... There are issues for players and devs across the board that could be alleviated by increasing player health... Please strongly consider making some positive changes by working on known issues that repel players from this mode, and cause a lot of unnecessary controversy for the player base.

I also considered posting threads of complaints about damage output from power and condition builds, but I don't think I need to... Anyone who has followed the forums over 6 years knows the complaints about damage are ongoing, and something needs to be done.

TY

Except people who don't know classes, builds or how to play might think this is crazy, but its not. The HP pool of almost all of those people they killed were all zerk or close to it, that is the risk you play being high dmg, and look at his own HP pool, he got hit once and almost died. another thing to notice is most if not all looked like zerglings, not a dodge to be had, hell, he was dropping smoke field and stacking stealth RIGHT IN FRONT OF THEM. they still just ran along, a number of them who were not full zerk that were not one hit did nothing, they just kept running in a straight line, no dodging, didn't attack, no defensive skills or blocks or anything, might as well have been AFK players. He was picking targets well also, solo, or already in combat with someone else, not fighting specific classes etc. What is funny is that most of the classes he was killing also have access to stealth, engine, mes, DE etc and him with 14k HP would also be one shot. I will bet you he also has 4 times as much video of him being killed as well.

What you are seeing is players who are not aware, vs someone who knows their class/build. Now, not saying stealth has not been broken, and attacks from stealth that deal that much might need to be looked at, but that is only the tip of the issue, and just about every class is able to do something like this to other zerk classes. I was told I was being reported as a cheater because I 4vs1 a group and won, when really they were just face roll players, I am far from the best, so that is saying something.

So you don't think reducing power creep, for both damage and defense, would be healthy for the game?

Can you explain why?

We can't reduce defense until we reduce offense.
  1. Make damage multipliers additive
  2. Reduce endurance regen traits such as adrenal implant by 20%
  3. Reduce all invulns durations by 1s
  4. Double all damage modifiers in pve
  5. Consider removing rune of adventure and energy sigil from pvp

Yes, yes you can reduce them, and you can buff offense. The problem is people are asking for sweeping changes, when the problems are over performing builds of given classes, and is not a simple "give everyone a huge HP buff", as that ignores the flip side of the "one shot" builds, you then end up with builds that are almost unkillable in the current meta, give them another 15-20k HP and you can forget it, it would ruin any sort of small scale, as the build would not be killable with just the HP boost, no less the crit dmg nerf AND adding a boost to personal healing skills. This is just LAZY, and will not work. If you have issues with the game or power creep (again, as I said, I agree there is), but point out specifics and how to fix them, not sweeping changes that would only make things worse.

This thread sounds like a turn WvW into a PvE match, skills don't do much dmg, so missing a dodge or block etc etc doesn't matter to much and OOHH!! Give us even more HP so planning rotations and bursts matter even less, you know what, let us just face tank everything please!

It would push things even more to condi, as its the only thing not nerfed dmg wise in the OP.

I mean THINK about it for a second, a ranger/SB etc with 35k BASE HP......BASE. Running close to 100% protection uptime, two invulnerable skills etc. And that would not even be the worse offender and can only think of the new builds that would be made. a BASE 40k Necro with barrier uptime, LOL, good luck, because the OP just buffed healing skills as well, so barrier becomes even more OP and without condi nerf as well, and the 50% reduction in skill CD time, I honestly don't think people know anything about other classes or builds before they suggest stuff like this.

Now could SOME classes have a rework on base HP? Or some specific classes be changed to where you can't trait all the dmg modifiers into a single build? Sure, but it is a complex issue and no one would be severed well by the sweeping HP creep suggested in the OP.

I never suggested a hp increase? You have the reasons pretty well laid out here.

Damage multipliers are currently multiplicativewith each other, which is why some classes can pull off those sweet 25k one shots from stealth. By making them additive instead, it reduces top end builds by 20-40%. By reducing invuln frames through hitting endurance regen, we stop insane bunker builds.

This also makes balance much easier for the devs as they don't have to work around extreme outliers. This allows defense to be toned down as well.

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@RisenHowl.2419 said:

@TinkTinkPOOF.9201 said:Adding across the board changes like this or suggesting it shows how few people understand the problem or how to deal with it, they have NO idea this would break the game worse than it is now. As it stands you have builds that exist that you have to be full zerk to even kill, add in more HP and less crit/dmg and the only way you are going to kill those builds are in a 3vs1. Sweeping changes are a BAD idea when you are wanting to tame a few over performing builds.

@"Swagger.1459" said:The video I'm posting is of thief, but it is merely to highlight damage output vs a player's health... There are issues for players and devs across the board that could be alleviated by increasing player health... Please strongly consider making some positive changes by working on known issues that repel players from this mode, and cause a lot of unnecessary controversy for the player base.

I also considered posting threads of complaints about damage output from power and condition builds, but I don't think I need to... Anyone who has followed the forums over 6 years knows the complaints about damage are ongoing, and something needs to be done.

TY

Except people who don't know classes, builds or how to play might think this is crazy, but its not. The HP pool of almost all of those people they killed were all zerk or close to it, that is the risk you play being high dmg, and look at his own HP pool, he got hit once and almost died. another thing to notice is most if not all looked like zerglings, not a dodge to be had, hell, he was dropping smoke field and stacking stealth RIGHT IN FRONT OF THEM. they still just ran along, a number of them who were not full zerk that were not one hit did nothing, they just kept running in a straight line, no dodging, didn't attack, no defensive skills or blocks or anything, might as well have been AFK players. He was picking targets well also, solo, or already in combat with someone else, not fighting specific classes etc. What is funny is that most of the classes he was killing also have access to stealth, engine, mes, DE etc and him with 14k HP would also be one shot. I will bet you he also has 4 times as much video of him being killed as well.

What you are seeing is players who are not aware, vs someone who knows their class/build. Now, not saying stealth has not been broken, and attacks from stealth that deal that much might need to be looked at, but that is only the tip of the issue, and just about every class is able to do something like this to other zerk classes. I was told I was being reported as a cheater because I 4vs1 a group and won, when really they were just face roll players, I am far from the best, so that is saying something.

So you don't think reducing power creep, for both damage and defense, would be healthy for the game?

Can you explain why?

We can't reduce defense until we reduce offense.
  1. Make damage multipliers additive
  2. Reduce endurance regen traits such as adrenal implant by 20%
  3. Reduce all invulns durations by 1s
  4. Double all damage modifiers in pve
  5. Consider removing rune of adventure and energy sigil from pvp

Yes, yes you can reduce them, and you can buff offense. The problem is people are asking for sweeping changes, when the problems are over performing builds of given classes, and is not a simple "give everyone a huge HP buff", as that ignores the flip side of the "one shot" builds, you then end up with builds that are almost unkillable in the current meta, give them another 15-20k HP and you can forget it, it would ruin any sort of small scale, as the build would not be killable with just the HP boost, no less the crit dmg nerf AND adding a boost to personal healing skills. This is just LAZY, and will not work. If you have issues with the game or power creep (again, as I said, I agree there is), but point out specifics and how to fix them, not sweeping changes that would only make things worse.

This thread sounds like a turn WvW into a PvE match, skills don't do much dmg, so missing a dodge or block etc etc doesn't matter to much and OOHH!! Give us even more HP so planning rotations and bursts matter even less, you know what, let us just face tank everything please!

It would push things even more to condi, as its the only thing not nerfed dmg wise in the OP.

I mean THINK about it for a second, a ranger/SB etc with 35k BASE HP......BASE. Running close to 100% protection uptime, two invulnerable skills etc. And that would not even be the worse offender and can only think of the new builds that would be made. a BASE 40k Necro with barrier uptime, LOL, good luck, because the OP just buffed healing skills as well, so barrier becomes even more OP and without condi nerf as well, and the 50% reduction in skill CD time, I honestly don't think people know anything about other classes or builds before they suggest stuff like this.

Now could SOME classes have a rework on base HP? Or some specific classes be changed to where you can't trait all the dmg modifiers into a single build? Sure, but it is a complex issue and no one would be severed well by the sweeping HP creep suggested in the OP.

I never suggested a hp increase? You have the reasons pretty well laid out here.

Damage multipliers are currently multiplicativewith each other, which is why some classes can pull off those sweet 25k one shots from stealth. By making them additive instead, it reduces top end builds by 20-40%. By reducing invuln frames through hitting endurance regen, we stop insane bunker builds.

This also makes balance much easier for the devs as they don't have to work around extreme outliers. This allows defense to be toned down as well.

You quoted my post dealing with sweeping changes for all classes, that was talking about HP and the OP and asked me to explain, I did. You said when you quoted me that defense can not be lowered until offense is as well, which is not true, you then went on to suggest MORE sweeping changes. As I already said, some specific over performing builds might need to be looked at and I also said that trait lines that allow the use of all dmg multipliers in a single build should be looked at. The problem with most of those builds being that the base class gives up little in defense when traiting these, the ones that give up a lot to get that sort of dmg however are fine for the most part, as its a very high risk high reward play.

Sweeping changes however does nothing to fix those problems, and generates only more.

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I'm not all against the ops idea but I see a lot more problems coming with a change like this. If you put on more hp, you need to change the boon/condition system with it. In the current state of the game even necros have issues corrupting the number of boons on "some" targets. More health in combination with the existing boon means a lot of really bad bunker options which can't be countered - especially not after conditions got the nerfbat.In smallscale this is a problem right now and in zergs it is an ongoing race between firebrand/chrono/rev vs. necro/boonstrips . I prefer having longer fights where you have to make "good" decisions to win, but with the actual meta and no balancing to boon application/stripping and a buff for many of the condi builds this will just shift the meta from oneshot to "dancing around each other for ours".

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@TinkTinkPOOF.9201 said:

@TinkTinkPOOF.9201 said:Adding across the board changes like this or suggesting it shows how few people understand the problem or how to deal with it, they have NO idea this would break the game worse than it is now. As it stands you have builds that exist that you have to be full zerk to even kill, add in more HP and less crit/dmg and the only way you are going to kill those builds are in a 3vs1. Sweeping changes are a BAD idea when you are wanting to tame a few over performing builds.

@"Swagger.1459" said:The video I'm posting is of thief, but it is merely to highlight damage output vs a player's health... There are issues for players and devs across the board that could be alleviated by increasing player health... Please strongly consider making some positive changes by working on known issues that repel players from this mode, and cause a lot of unnecessary controversy for the player base.

I also considered posting threads of complaints about damage output from power and condition builds, but I don't think I need to... Anyone who has followed the forums over 6 years knows the complaints about damage are ongoing, and something needs to be done.

TY

Except people who don't know classes, builds or how to play might think this is crazy, but its not. The HP pool of almost all of those people they killed were all zerk or close to it, that is the risk you play being high dmg, and look at his own HP pool, he got hit once and almost died. another thing to notice is most if not all looked like zerglings, not a dodge to be had, hell, he was dropping smoke field and stacking stealth RIGHT IN FRONT OF THEM. they still just ran along, a number of them who were not full zerk that were not one hit did nothing, they just kept running in a straight line, no dodging, didn't attack, no defensive skills or blocks or anything, might as well have been AFK players. He was picking targets well also, solo, or already in combat with someone else, not fighting specific classes etc. What is funny is that most of the classes he was killing also have access to stealth, engine, mes, DE etc and him with 14k HP would also be one shot. I will bet you he also has 4 times as much video of him being killed as well.

What you are seeing is players who are not aware, vs someone who knows their class/build. Now, not saying stealth has not been broken, and attacks from stealth that deal that much might need to be looked at, but that is only the tip of the issue, and just about every class is able to do something like this to other zerk classes. I was told I was being reported as a cheater because I 4vs1 a group and won, when really they were just face roll players, I am far from the best, so that is saying something.

So you don't think reducing power creep, for both damage and defense, would be healthy for the game?

Can you explain why?

We can't reduce defense until we reduce offense.
  1. Make damage multipliers additive
  2. Reduce endurance regen traits such as adrenal implant by 20%
  3. Reduce all invulns durations by 1s
  4. Double all damage modifiers in pve
  5. Consider removing rune of adventure and energy sigil from pvp

Yes, yes you can reduce them, and you can buff offense. The problem is people are asking for sweeping changes, when the problems are over performing builds of given classes, and is not a simple "give everyone a huge HP buff", as that ignores the flip side of the "one shot" builds, you then end up with builds that are almost unkillable in the current meta, give them another 15-20k HP and you can forget it, it would ruin any sort of small scale, as the build would not be killable with just the HP boost, no less the crit dmg nerf AND adding a boost to personal healing skills. This is just LAZY, and will not work. If you have issues with the game or power creep (again, as I said, I agree there is), but point out specifics and how to fix them, not sweeping changes that would only make things worse.

This thread sounds like a turn WvW into a PvE match, skills don't do much dmg, so missing a dodge or block etc etc doesn't matter to much and OOHH!! Give us even more HP so planning rotations and bursts matter even less, you know what, let us just face tank everything please!

It would push things even more to condi, as its the only thing not nerfed dmg wise in the OP.

I mean THINK about it for a second, a ranger/SB etc with 35k BASE HP......BASE. Running close to 100% protection uptime, two invulnerable skills etc. And that would not even be the worse offender and can only think of the new builds that would be made. a BASE 40k Necro with barrier uptime, LOL, good luck, because the OP just buffed healing skills as well, so barrier becomes even more OP and without condi nerf as well, and the 50% reduction in skill CD time, I honestly don't think people know anything about other classes or builds before they suggest stuff like this.

Now could SOME classes have a rework on base HP? Or some specific classes be changed to where you can't trait all the dmg modifiers into a single build? Sure, but it is a complex issue and no one would be severed well by the sweeping HP creep suggested in the OP.

I never suggested a hp increase? You have the reasons pretty well laid out here.

Damage multipliers are currently multiplicativewith each other, which is why some classes can pull off those sweet 25k one shots from stealth. By making them additive instead, it reduces top end builds by 20-40%. By reducing invuln frames through hitting endurance regen, we stop insane bunker builds.

This also makes balance much easier for the devs as they don't have to work around extreme outliers. This allows defense to be toned down as well.

You quoted my post dealing with sweeping changes for all classes, that was talking about HP and the OP and asked me to explain, I did. You said when you quoted me that defense can not be lowered until offense is as well, which is not true, you then went on to suggest MORE sweeping changes. As I already said, some specific over performing builds might need to be looked at and I also said that trait lines that allow the use of all dmg multipliers in a single build should be looked at. The problem with most of those builds being that the base class gives up little in defense when traiting these, the ones that give up a lot to get that sort of dmg however are fine for the most part, as its a very high risk high reward play.

Sweeping changes however does nothing to fix those problems, and generates only more.

Ahhh sorry for the misunderstanding, the post I quoted doesn't mention hp at all though? Think I was just in the quote chain.

If they decrease defense without decreasing offense, the game becomes full of one shots. Both need to go down. By making multipliers additive it reduces all outliers equally with minimal impact on bruisers, and limits further power creep down the road.

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@RisenHowl.2419 said:

@TinkTinkPOOF.9201 said:Adding across the board changes like this or suggesting it shows how few people understand the problem or how to deal with it, they have NO idea this would break the game worse than it is now. As it stands you have builds that exist that you have to be full zerk to even kill, add in more HP and less crit/dmg and the only way you are going to kill those builds are in a 3vs1. Sweeping changes are a BAD idea when you are wanting to tame a few over performing builds.

@"Swagger.1459" said:The video I'm posting is of thief, but it is merely to highlight damage output vs a player's health... There are issues for players and devs across the board that could be alleviated by increasing player health... Please strongly consider making some positive changes by working on known issues that repel players from this mode, and cause a lot of unnecessary controversy for the player base.

I also considered posting threads of complaints about damage output from power and condition builds, but I don't think I need to... Anyone who has followed the forums over 6 years knows the complaints about damage are ongoing, and something needs to be done.

TY

Except people who don't know classes, builds or how to play might think this is crazy, but its not. The HP pool of almost all of those people they killed were all zerk or close to it, that is the risk you play being high dmg, and look at his own HP pool, he got hit once and almost died. another thing to notice is most if not all looked like zerglings, not a dodge to be had, hell, he was dropping smoke field and stacking stealth RIGHT IN FRONT OF THEM. they still just ran along, a number of them who were not full zerk that were not one hit did nothing, they just kept running in a straight line, no dodging, didn't attack, no defensive skills or blocks or anything, might as well have been AFK players. He was picking targets well also, solo, or already in combat with someone else, not fighting specific classes etc. What is funny is that most of the classes he was killing also have access to stealth, engine, mes, DE etc and him with 14k HP would also be one shot. I will bet you he also has 4 times as much video of him being killed as well.

What you are seeing is players who are not aware, vs someone who knows their class/build. Now, not saying stealth has not been broken, and attacks from stealth that deal that much might need to be looked at, but that is only the tip of the issue, and just about every class is able to do something like this to other zerk classes. I was told I was being reported as a cheater because I 4vs1 a group and won, when really they were just face roll players, I am far from the best, so that is saying something.

So you don't think reducing power creep, for both damage and defense, would be healthy for the game?

Can you explain why?

We can't reduce defense until we reduce offense.
  1. Make damage multipliers additive
  2. Reduce endurance regen traits such as adrenal implant by 20%
  3. Reduce all invulns durations by 1s
  4. Double all damage modifiers in pve
  5. Consider removing rune of adventure and energy sigil from pvp

Yes, yes you can reduce them, and you can buff offense. The problem is people are asking for sweeping changes, when the problems are over performing builds of given classes, and is not a simple "give everyone a huge HP buff", as that ignores the flip side of the "one shot" builds, you then end up with builds that are almost unkillable in the current meta, give them another 15-20k HP and you can forget it, it would ruin any sort of small scale, as the build would not be killable with just the HP boost, no less the crit dmg nerf AND adding a boost to personal healing skills. This is just LAZY, and will not work. If you have issues with the game or power creep (again, as I said, I agree there is), but point out specifics and how to fix them, not sweeping changes that would only make things worse.

This thread sounds like a turn WvW into a PvE match, skills don't do much dmg, so missing a dodge or block etc etc doesn't matter to much and OOHH!! Give us even more HP so planning rotations and bursts matter even less, you know what, let us just face tank everything please!

It would push things even more to condi, as its the only thing not nerfed dmg wise in the OP.

I mean THINK about it for a second, a ranger/SB etc with 35k BASE HP......BASE. Running close to 100% protection uptime, two invulnerable skills etc. And that would not even be the worse offender and can only think of the new builds that would be made. a BASE 40k Necro with barrier uptime, LOL, good luck, because the OP just buffed healing skills as well, so barrier becomes even more OP and without condi nerf as well, and the 50% reduction in skill CD time, I honestly don't think people know anything about other classes or builds before they suggest stuff like this.

Now could SOME classes have a rework on base HP? Or some specific classes be changed to where you can't trait all the dmg modifiers into a single build? Sure, but it is a complex issue and no one would be severed well by the sweeping HP creep suggested in the OP.

I never suggested a hp increase? You have the reasons pretty well laid out here.

Damage multipliers are currently multiplicativewith each other, which is why some classes can pull off those sweet 25k one shots from stealth. By making them additive instead, it reduces top end builds by 20-40%. By reducing invuln frames through hitting endurance regen, we stop insane bunker builds.

This also makes balance much easier for the devs as they don't have to work around extreme outliers. This allows defense to be toned down as well.

You quoted my post dealing with sweeping changes for all classes, that was talking about HP and the OP and asked me to explain, I did. You said when you quoted me that defense can not be lowered until offense is as well, which is not true, you then went on to suggest MORE sweeping changes. As I already said, some specific over performing builds might need to be looked at and I also said that trait lines that allow the use of all dmg multipliers in a single build should be looked at. The problem with most of those builds being that the base class gives up little in defense when traiting these, the ones that give up a lot to get that sort of dmg however are fine for the most part, as its a very high risk high reward play.

Sweeping changes however does nothing to fix those problems, and generates only more.

Ahhh sorry for the misunderstanding, the post I quoted doesn't mention hp at all though? Think I was just in the quote chain.

If they decrease defense without decreasing offense, the game becomes full of one shots. Both need to go down. By making multipliers additive it reduces all outliers equally with minimal impact on bruisers, and limits further power creep down the road.

In addition to changing modifiers from multiplicative to additive I would want to see base HP increased for the low-hp professions to 15k, and the medium-hp professions to 17k.

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