Why is Ele bad? - Page 2 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Why is Ele bad?

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  • MyPuppy.8970MyPuppy.8970 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I came up with a simple solution.
    Facts:

    • basic stat deficiency.
    • no range switch.
    • 4 attunements and twice as much weapon skills that are already balanced with higher cast time / animations / aftercasts / cooldowns and lower damage / utility. That is supposed to be the class mechanic but it is not because it offers nothing if not traited. Ele is the only class that has to trait for its mechanic to do anything, and has to trait it even more for it to be somehow useful.

    Solution :
    Make these points baseline :

    • increased attack power and condi damage when in fire.
    • increased vitality and healing power when in water.
    • increased precision and ferocity when in air
    • increased vitality and toughness when in earth.
      Numbers would be maybe +120 per stat, not lingering when you switch attunement. That alone would give purpose to having attunements besides more weapon skills that you need to combo to get anything out of them. Of course you could further improve those stats by traiting in the desired line. So add + 180 condi damage in fire, +180 healing power in water. Air and earth already have +180 precision and toughness. Not by default for air, so just remove +25% speed it's useless anyway.

    Furthermore:

    Remove cd reduction on utilities. Replace the traits to give additionnal utility to them.

    Instead:

    Pyromancer's training : CD reduction on fire skills, fire attunement recharge/overloads/dual skills, and fire glyphs, fire signet, cleansing fire cantrip, fire shouts, fire conjures, etc you see my point.
    Same for Aquamancer's, Aeromancer's, Geomancer's.

    Arcane line could stay the same i guess.

    Thoughts?

  • i feel like atunements should just be combined to give Ele a weapon swap feel. Combine earth and water into a single attunement since they are defense and support then combine fire and air since they are more damage oriented. That isnt a dumbing down of the class, its making them like every other class with 2 hotbars of abilities. Then balancing will be easier to do since you just got rid of half the abilities.

  • Dace.8173Dace.8173 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @MyPuppy.8970 said:
    Solution :
    Make these points baseline :

    • increased attack power and condi damage when in fire.
    • increased vitality and healing power when in water.
    • increased precision and ferocity when in air
    • increased vitality and toughness when in earth.
      Numbers would be maybe +120 per stat, not lingering when you switch attunement. That alone would give purpose to having attunements besides more weapon skills that you need to combo to get anything out of them. Of course you could further improve those stats by traiting in the desired line. So add + 180 condi damage in fire, +180 healing power in water. Air and earth already have +180 precision and toughness. Not by default for air, so just remove +25% speed it's useless anyway.

    Furthermore:

    Remove cd reduction on utilities. Replace the traits to give additionnal utility to them.

    Instead:

    Pyromancer's training : CD reduction on fire skills, fire attunement recharge/overloads/dual skills, and fire glyphs, fire signet, cleansing fire cantrip, fire shouts, fire conjures, etc you see my point.
    Same for Aquamancer's, Aeromancer's, Geomancer's.

    Arcane line could stay the same i guess.

    Thoughts?

    I see this as being viable. With Earth and Water giving you two bumps in vitality you'll have more HP. That alone would go a long way.

    @Dabrixmgp.4758 said:
    i feel like atunements should just be combined to give Ele a weapon swap feel. Combine earth and water into a single attunement since they are defense and support then combine fire and air since they are more damage oriented. That isn't a dumbing down of the class, its making them like every other class with 2 hotbars of abilities. Then balancing will be easier to do since you just got rid of half the abilities.

    There is no way you can do this and it wouldn't be called dumbing the profession down. For the people who like the micromanagement involved reducing that will be viewed as a dumbing down of the profession. The claim that it's making it like every other class wouldn't hold water either. Guardian has 3 hot bar abilities, Mesmer has 4, and Engineer has 5. So in actuality, you wouldn't be making them like every other profession. Plus, after 6 years of play, you really can't make a change like that without angering a portion of your playerbase (how much is beyond me but it would be bad to assume that the opinions on the shortcomings of the profession on the forums is held with the greater gaming public. The forum is a small sample of the players). Thus, a change of this nature would be read as dumbing down the profession and it would be hard to argue against that.

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dace.8173 said:

    @MyPuppy.8970 said:
    Solution :
    Make these points baseline :

    • increased attack power and condi damage when in fire.
    • increased vitality and healing power when in water.
    • increased precision and ferocity when in air
    • increased vitality and toughness when in earth.
      Numbers would be maybe +120 per stat, not lingering when you switch attunement. That alone would give purpose to having attunements besides more weapon skills that you need to combo to get anything out of them. Of course you could further improve those stats by traiting in the desired line. So add + 180 condi damage in fire, +180 healing power in water. Air and earth already have +180 precision and toughness. Not by default for air, so just remove +25% speed it's useless anyway.

    Furthermore:

    Remove cd reduction on utilities. Replace the traits to give additionnal utility to them.

    Instead:

    Pyromancer's training : CD reduction on fire skills, fire attunement recharge/overloads/dual skills, and fire glyphs, fire signet, cleansing fire cantrip, fire shouts, fire conjures, etc you see my point.
    Same for Aquamancer's, Aeromancer's, Geomancer's.

    Arcane line could stay the same i guess.

    Thoughts?

    I see this as being viable. With Earth and Water giving you two bumps in vitality you'll have more HP. That alone would go a long way.

    @Dabrixmgp.4758 said:
    i feel like atunements should just be combined to give Ele a weapon swap feel. Combine earth and water into a single attunement since they are defense and support then combine fire and air since they are more damage oriented. That isn't a dumbing down of the class, its making them like every other class with 2 hotbars of abilities. Then balancing will be easier to do since you just got rid of half the abilities.

    There is no way you can do this and it wouldn't be called dumbing the profession down. For the people who like the micromanagement involved reducing that will be viewed as a dumbing down of the profession. The claim that it's making it like every other class wouldn't hold water either. Guardian has 3 hot bar abilities, Mesmer has 4, and Engineer has 5. So in actuality, you wouldn't be making them like every other profession. Plus, after 6 years of play, you really can't make a change like that without angering a portion of your playerbase (how much is beyond me but it would be bad to assume that the opinions on the shortcomings of the profession on the forums is held with the greater gaming public. The forum is a small sample of the players). Thus, a change of this nature would be read as dumbing down the profession and it would be hard to argue against that.

    Hardcore mode should be a playstyle choice..not a design concept, you let people decide how they want to play with their class...not ask all players who enjoy ele concept to go and play hardcore mode for the sake of it. Any change will always anger some players but for quality purposes that's irrelevant at best...if 8 professions out of 9 are easy mode for an easy mode game...we can't have 1 profession hard mode for the sake of every single white fly

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

  • vesica tempestas.1563vesica tempestas.1563 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 25, 2018

    @Dabrixmgp.4758 said:
    i feel like atunements should just be combined to give Ele a weapon swap feel. Combine earth and water into a single attunement since they are defense and support then combine fire and air since they are more damage oriented. That isnt a dumbing down of the class, its making them like every other class with 2 hotbars of abilities. Then balancing will be easier to do since you just got rid of half the abilities.

    we have element swap, its the same thing with a different set of pixels and not the root issue with ele balancing. Many including myself love ele because of the complexity and removing half of the abilities is dumbing down.

    The problems is stats and the need to compensate for lack of hp/toughness because our mitigation is not good enough, forcing us to swap out offense which makes is comparatively weaker.

    "Any path that narrows future possibilities may become a lethal trap. Humans do not thread their way through a maze; they scan a vast horizon filled with unique opportunities." - The Spacing Guild Handbook.

    Beware the meta!

  • Dace.8173Dace.8173 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 25, 2018

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @Dace.8173 said:

    @MyPuppy.8970 said:
    Solution :
    Make these points baseline :

    • increased attack power and condi damage when in fire.
    • increased vitality and healing power when in water.
    • increased precision and ferocity when in air
    • increased vitality and toughness when in earth.
      Numbers would be maybe +120 per stat, not lingering when you switch attunement. That alone would give purpose to having attunements besides more weapon skills that you need to combo to get anything out of them. Of course you could further improve those stats by traiting in the desired line. So add + 180 condi damage in fire, +180 healing power in water. Air and earth already have +180 precision and toughness. Not by default for air, so just remove +25% speed it's useless anyway.

    Furthermore:

    Remove cd reduction on utilities. Replace the traits to give additionnal utility to them.

    Instead:

    Pyromancer's training : CD reduction on fire skills, fire attunement recharge/overloads/dual skills, and fire glyphs, fire signet, cleansing fire cantrip, fire shouts, fire conjures, etc you see my point.
    Same for Aquamancer's, Aeromancer's, Geomancer's.

    Arcane line could stay the same i guess.

    Thoughts?

    I see this as being viable. With Earth and Water giving you two bumps in vitality you'll have more HP. That alone would go a long way.

    @Dabrixmgp.4758 said:
    i feel like atunements should just be combined to give Ele a weapon swap feel. Combine earth and water into a single attunement since they are defense and support then combine fire and air since they are more damage oriented. That isn't a dumbing down of the class, its making them like every other class with 2 hotbars of abilities. Then balancing will be easier to do since you just got rid of half the abilities.

    There is no way you can do this and it wouldn't be called dumbing the profession down. For the people who like the micromanagement involved reducing that will be viewed as a dumbing down of the profession. The claim that it's making it like every other class wouldn't hold water either. Guardian has 3 hot bar abilities, Mesmer has 4, and Engineer has 5. So in actuality, you wouldn't be making them like every other profession. Plus, after 6 years of play, you really can't make a change like that without angering a portion of your playerbase (how much is beyond me but it would be bad to assume that the opinions on the shortcomings of the profession on the forums is held with the greater gaming public. The forum is a small sample of the players). Thus, a change of this nature would be read as dumbing down the profession and it would be hard to argue against that.

    Hardcore mode should be a playstyle choice..not a design concept, you let people decide how they want to play with their class...not ask all players who enjoy ele concept to go and play hardcore mode for the sake of it. Any change will always anger some players but for quality purposes that's irrelevant at best...if 8 professions out of 9 are easy mode for an easy mode game...we can't have 1 profession hard mode for the sake of every single white fly

    That doesn't work. Designing two levels of a profession would just make the balance issues far worse. It would effectively increase the number of factions in the game and as you include more and more factions the balancing of it all gets worse. To be frank, the player has to adjust to the profession, not the other way around. It is impossible to design a faction in a game in such a way that its playstyle is something that everyone who agrees with the concept will like. There are folks who love the concept for Revenant but hate the Energy mechanic and not being able to pick their utilities. Anyone who wants to play Revenant HAS to adjust to the profession. You can design a faction so that it allows for more than one playstyle but there is no way to design one in a way that it would be able to meet everyone's playstyle preferences. So on some level, a player HAS to adjust to the faction they want to play.

    As for the quality of purpose ...... there is no way of knowing if your issues with the profession are actually held by a majority of the people who play the game. The forums is a horrible, horrible, horrible way to tell if people like or hate something. The forums tend to self select and the people who tend to spend the most time are the ones who are unhappy and voicing that displeasure. Not everyone mind you, but you are never going to get an accurate picture of the wants and desires of players. You'll get a picure of some but nowhere near enough where you can make the assumption that the way you feel about the profession is the way Elementalist players writ large feel. The quality of the purpose could mean that the profession remains as is.

    Also, you totally need to have one hard profession in a game. Not everyone wants to play something that is easy. Making all your factions in a game easy is going to upset people. They would argue that people who like an easy faction to play have plenty of choices and they have none and they would be correct. That's poor game design. Granted, Elementalist isn't the only hard profession in the game so claiming that there is just one hard profession and then eight easy ones is disingenuous, at best.

    It sucks when the design and play style of a faction goes against the way you want to play. However, that happens in most games. You are always going to have factions in a game in which the flavor of it is cool to someone but the way it works just doesn't work for them. It is impossible to deliver the kind of game you speak off outside of a single player experience. Some people will have to accept that the profession whose flavor they identify with is simply something they can't play. There are people who love it and it would be wrong to take that away from them just to appease another set of people. That would is a sure fire way to kill your game.

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dace.8173 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @Dace.8173 said:

    @MyPuppy.8970 said:
    Solution :
    Make these points baseline :

    • increased attack power and condi damage when in fire.
    • increased vitality and healing power when in water.
    • increased precision and ferocity when in air
    • increased vitality and toughness when in earth.
      Numbers would be maybe +120 per stat, not lingering when you switch attunement. That alone would give purpose to having attunements besides more weapon skills that you need to combo to get anything out of them. Of course you could further improve those stats by traiting in the desired line. So add + 180 condi damage in fire, +180 healing power in water. Air and earth already have +180 precision and toughness. Not by default for air, so just remove +25% speed it's useless anyway.

    Furthermore:

    Remove cd reduction on utilities. Replace the traits to give additionnal utility to them.

    Instead:

    Pyromancer's training : CD reduction on fire skills, fire attunement recharge/overloads/dual skills, and fire glyphs, fire signet, cleansing fire cantrip, fire shouts, fire conjures, etc you see my point.
    Same for Aquamancer's, Aeromancer's, Geomancer's.

    Arcane line could stay the same i guess.

    Thoughts?

    I see this as being viable. With Earth and Water giving you two bumps in vitality you'll have more HP. That alone would go a long way.

    @Dabrixmgp.4758 said:
    i feel like atunements should just be combined to give Ele a weapon swap feel. Combine earth and water into a single attunement since they are defense and support then combine fire and air since they are more damage oriented. That isn't a dumbing down of the class, its making them like every other class with 2 hotbars of abilities. Then balancing will be easier to do since you just got rid of half the abilities.

    There is no way you can do this and it wouldn't be called dumbing the profession down. For the people who like the micromanagement involved reducing that will be viewed as a dumbing down of the profession. The claim that it's making it like every other class wouldn't hold water either. Guardian has 3 hot bar abilities, Mesmer has 4, and Engineer has 5. So in actuality, you wouldn't be making them like every other profession. Plus, after 6 years of play, you really can't make a change like that without angering a portion of your playerbase (how much is beyond me but it would be bad to assume that the opinions on the shortcomings of the profession on the forums is held with the greater gaming public. The forum is a small sample of the players). Thus, a change of this nature would be read as dumbing down the profession and it would be hard to argue against that.

    Hardcore mode should be a playstyle choice..not a design concept, you let people decide how they want to play with their class...not ask all players who enjoy ele concept to go and play hardcore mode for the sake of it. Any change will always anger some players but for quality purposes that's irrelevant at best...if 8 professions out of 9 are easy mode for an easy mode game...we can't have 1 profession hard mode for the sake of every single white fly

    That doesn't work. Designing two levels of a profession would just make the balance issues far worse. It would effectively increase the number of factions in the game and as you include more and more factions the balancing of it all gets worse. To be frank, the player has to adjust to the profession, not the other way around. It is impossible to design a faction in a game in such a way that its playstyle is something that everyone who agrees with the concept will like. There are folks who love the concept for Revenant but hate the Energy mechanic and not being able to pick their utilities. Anyone who wants to play Revenant HAS to adjust to the profession. You can design a faction so that it allows for more than one playstyle but there is no way to design one in a way that it would be able to meet everyone's playstyle preferences. So on some level, a player **HAS **to adjust to the faction they want to play.

    As for the quality of purpose ...... there is no way of knowing if your issues with the profession are actually held by a majority of the people who play the game. The forums is a horrible, horrible, horrible way to tell if people like or hate something. The forums tend to self select and the people who tend to spend the most time are the ones who are unhappy and voicing that displeasure. Not everyone mind you, but you are never going to get an accurate picture of the wants and desires of players. You'll get a picure of some but nowhere near enough where you can make the assumption that the way you feel about the profession is the way Elementalist players writ large feel. The quality of the purpose could mean that the profession remains as is.

    Also, you totally need to have one hard profession in a game. Not everyone wants to play something that is easy. Making all your factions in a game easy is going to upset people. They would argue that people who like an easy faction to play have plenty of choices and they have none and they would be correct. That's poor game design. Granted, Elementalist isn't the only hard profession in the game so claiming that there is just one hard profession and then eight easy ones is disingenuous, at best.

    It sucks when the design and play style of a faction goes against the way you want to play. However, that happens in most games. You are always going to have factions in a game in which the flavor of it is cool to someone but the way it works just doesn't work for them. It is impossible to deliver the kind of game you speak off outside of a single player experience. Some people will have to accept that the profession whose flavor they identify with is simply something they can't play. There are people who love it and it would be wrong to take that away from them just to appease another set of people. That would is a sure fire way to kill your game.

    Your argument does entirely not apply to ele, the class was not meant to be hardcore to such degree where you need 300% effort to beat even your average player on other professions, being harder to play it's ok but no to such an extent where your entire toolset is nothing but a mockery of what other professions can do.

    You compare ele to revenant where those who master it , we'll go and lay waste from pvp to wvw, be it duels or large zerg fights and that's not the case with ele where mastering it doesn't bring you anything but a moral accolade

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

  • @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @Dace.8173 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @Dace.8173 said:

    @MyPuppy.8970 said:
    Solution :
    Make these points baseline :

    • increased attack power and condi damage when in fire.
    • increased vitality and healing power when in water.
    • increased precision and ferocity when in air
    • increased vitality and toughness when in earth.
      Numbers would be maybe +120 per stat, not lingering when you switch attunement. That alone would give purpose to having attunements besides more weapon skills that you need to combo to get anything out of them. Of course you could further improve those stats by traiting in the desired line. So add + 180 condi damage in fire, +180 healing power in water. Air and earth already have +180 precision and toughness. Not by default for air, so just remove +25% speed it's useless anyway.

    Furthermore:

    Remove cd reduction on utilities. Replace the traits to give additionnal utility to them.

    Instead:

    Pyromancer's training : CD reduction on fire skills, fire attunement recharge/overloads/dual skills, and fire glyphs, fire signet, cleansing fire cantrip, fire shouts, fire conjures, etc you see my point.
    Same for Aquamancer's, Aeromancer's, Geomancer's.

    Arcane line could stay the same i guess.

    Thoughts?

    I see this as being viable. With Earth and Water giving you two bumps in vitality you'll have more HP. That alone would go a long way.

    @Dabrixmgp.4758 said:
    i feel like atunements should just be combined to give Ele a weapon swap feel. Combine earth and water into a single attunement since they are defense and support then combine fire and air since they are more damage oriented. That isn't a dumbing down of the class, its making them like every other class with 2 hotbars of abilities. Then balancing will be easier to do since you just got rid of half the abilities.

    There is no way you can do this and it wouldn't be called dumbing the profession down. For the people who like the micromanagement involved reducing that will be viewed as a dumbing down of the profession. The claim that it's making it like every other class wouldn't hold water either. Guardian has 3 hot bar abilities, Mesmer has 4, and Engineer has 5. So in actuality, you wouldn't be making them like every other profession. Plus, after 6 years of play, you really can't make a change like that without angering a portion of your playerbase (how much is beyond me but it would be bad to assume that the opinions on the shortcomings of the profession on the forums is held with the greater gaming public. The forum is a small sample of the players). Thus, a change of this nature would be read as dumbing down the profession and it would be hard to argue against that.

    Hardcore mode should be a playstyle choice..not a design concept, you let people decide how they want to play with their class...not ask all players who enjoy ele concept to go and play hardcore mode for the sake of it. Any change will always anger some players but for quality purposes that's irrelevant at best...if 8 professions out of 9 are easy mode for an easy mode game...we can't have 1 profession hard mode for the sake of every single white fly

    That doesn't work. Designing two levels of a profession would just make the balance issues far worse. It would effectively increase the number of factions in the game and as you include more and more factions the balancing of it all gets worse. To be frank, the player has to adjust to the profession, not the other way around. It is impossible to design a faction in a game in such a way that its playstyle is something that everyone who agrees with the concept will like. There are folks who love the concept for Revenant but hate the Energy mechanic and not being able to pick their utilities. Anyone who wants to play Revenant HAS to adjust to the profession. You can design a faction so that it allows for more than one playstyle but there is no way to design one in a way that it would be able to meet everyone's playstyle preferences. So on some level, a player **HAS **to adjust to the faction they want to play.

    As for the quality of purpose ...... there is no way of knowing if your issues with the profession are actually held by a majority of the people who play the game. The forums is a horrible, horrible, horrible way to tell if people like or hate something. The forums tend to self select and the people who tend to spend the most time are the ones who are unhappy and voicing that displeasure. Not everyone mind you, but you are never going to get an accurate picture of the wants and desires of players. You'll get a picure of some but nowhere near enough where you can make the assumption that the way you feel about the profession is the way Elementalist players writ large feel. The quality of the purpose could mean that the profession remains as is.

    Also, you totally need to have one hard profession in a game. Not everyone wants to play something that is easy. Making all your factions in a game easy is going to upset people. They would argue that people who like an easy faction to play have plenty of choices and they have none and they would be correct. That's poor game design. Granted, Elementalist isn't the only hard profession in the game so claiming that there is just one hard profession and then eight easy ones is disingenuous, at best.

    It sucks when the design and play style of a faction goes against the way you want to play. However, that happens in most games. You are always going to have factions in a game in which the flavor of it is cool to someone but the way it works just doesn't work for them. It is impossible to deliver the kind of game you speak off outside of a single player experience. Some people will have to accept that the profession whose flavor they identify with is simply something they can't play. There are people who love it and it would be wrong to take that away from them just to appease another set of people. That would is a sure fire way to kill your game.

    Your argument does entirely not apply to ele, the class was not meant to be hardcore to such degree where you need 300% effort to beat even your average player on other professions, being harder to play it's ok but no to such an extent where your entire toolset is nothing but a mockery of what other professions can do.

    You compare ele to revenant where those who master it , we'll go and lay waste from pvp to wvw, be it duels or large zerg fights and that's not the case with ele where mastering it doesn't bring you anything but a moral accolade

    The class is not hardcore, but its deliberately complex, and aimed at players that like that type of gameplay. Balance is an entirely different concern that is concerned with power and mitigation levels. Its the latter that needs tweaked not skill choices and gameplay style.

    "Any path that narrows future possibilities may become a lethal trap. Humans do not thread their way through a maze; they scan a vast horizon filled with unique opportunities." - The Spacing Guild Handbook.

    Beware the meta!

  • Ganathar.4956Ganathar.4956 Member ✭✭✭

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @Dace.8173 said:

    @MyPuppy.8970 said:
    Solution :
    Make these points baseline :

    • increased attack power and condi damage when in fire.
    • increased vitality and healing power when in water.
    • increased precision and ferocity when in air
    • increased vitality and toughness when in earth.
      Numbers would be maybe +120 per stat, not lingering when you switch attunement. That alone would give purpose to having attunements besides more weapon skills that you need to combo to get anything out of them. Of course you could further improve those stats by traiting in the desired line. So add + 180 condi damage in fire, +180 healing power in water. Air and earth already have +180 precision and toughness. Not by default for air, so just remove +25% speed it's useless anyway.

    Furthermore:

    Remove cd reduction on utilities. Replace the traits to give additionnal utility to them.

    Instead:

    Pyromancer's training : CD reduction on fire skills, fire attunement recharge/overloads/dual skills, and fire glyphs, fire signet, cleansing fire cantrip, fire shouts, fire conjures, etc you see my point.
    Same for Aquamancer's, Aeromancer's, Geomancer's.

    Arcane line could stay the same i guess.

    Thoughts?

    I see this as being viable. With Earth and Water giving you two bumps in vitality you'll have more HP. That alone would go a long way.

    @Dabrixmgp.4758 said:
    i feel like atunements should just be combined to give Ele a weapon swap feel. Combine earth and water into a single attunement since they are defense and support then combine fire and air since they are more damage oriented. That isn't a dumbing down of the class, its making them like every other class with 2 hotbars of abilities. Then balancing will be easier to do since you just got rid of half the abilities.

    There is no way you can do this and it wouldn't be called dumbing the profession down. For the people who like the micromanagement involved reducing that will be viewed as a dumbing down of the profession. The claim that it's making it like every other class wouldn't hold water either. Guardian has 3 hot bar abilities, Mesmer has 4, and Engineer has 5. So in actuality, you wouldn't be making them like every other profession. Plus, after 6 years of play, you really can't make a change like that without angering a portion of your playerbase (how much is beyond me but it would be bad to assume that the opinions on the shortcomings of the profession on the forums is held with the greater gaming public. The forum is a small sample of the players). Thus, a change of this nature would be read as dumbing down the profession and it would be hard to argue against that.

    Hardcore mode should be a playstyle choice..not a design concept, you let people decide how they want to play with their class...not ask all players who enjoy ele concept to go and play hardcore mode for the sake of it. Any change will always anger some players but for quality purposes that's irrelevant at best...if 8 professions out of 9 are easy mode for an easy mode game...we can't have 1 profession hard mode for the sake of every single white fly

    This still doesn't justify removing attunements. Just because attunements exist, it doesn't mean that every single good build has to be difficult to play. Elementalist has had some easier builds in the past.

    Also look at engineer. Holosmith simplified engi a lot, and it wouldn't surprise me at all if Anet had that sort of design goal with the next e-spec. Weaver was designed to be the most complex and they won't do that with ele again.

    Removing attunements would take immense design effort. Not only would every single aspect of core ele would need to be rebalanced, but there would also have to be a new class mechanic. Weaver and tempest mechanics would also need to be scrapped and redesigned. All of this effort is completely unnecessary. What the devs have to do is stop being afraid of buffing ele. It has been over a year and the class doesn't feel much stronger than it was on PoF release. It's a weak class so stop being so conservative with the buffs. We can't be waiting for 2 more years until the next expansion for this to be fixed.

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @Dace.8173 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @Dace.8173 said:

    @MyPuppy.8970 said:
    Solution :
    Make these points baseline :

    • increased attack power and condi damage when in fire.
    • increased vitality and healing power when in water.
    • increased precision and ferocity when in air
    • increased vitality and toughness when in earth.
      Numbers would be maybe +120 per stat, not lingering when you switch attunement. That alone would give purpose to having attunements besides more weapon skills that you need to combo to get anything out of them. Of course you could further improve those stats by traiting in the desired line. So add + 180 condi damage in fire, +180 healing power in water. Air and earth already have +180 precision and toughness. Not by default for air, so just remove +25% speed it's useless anyway.

    Furthermore:

    Remove cd reduction on utilities. Replace the traits to give additionnal utility to them.

    Instead:

    Pyromancer's training : CD reduction on fire skills, fire attunement recharge/overloads/dual skills, and fire glyphs, fire signet, cleansing fire cantrip, fire shouts, fire conjures, etc you see my point.
    Same for Aquamancer's, Aeromancer's, Geomancer's.

    Arcane line could stay the same i guess.

    Thoughts?

    I see this as being viable. With Earth and Water giving you two bumps in vitality you'll have more HP. That alone would go a long way.

    @Dabrixmgp.4758 said:
    i feel like atunements should just be combined to give Ele a weapon swap feel. Combine earth and water into a single attunement since they are defense and support then combine fire and air since they are more damage oriented. That isn't a dumbing down of the class, its making them like every other class with 2 hotbars of abilities. Then balancing will be easier to do since you just got rid of half the abilities.

    There is no way you can do this and it wouldn't be called dumbing the profession down. For the people who like the micromanagement involved reducing that will be viewed as a dumbing down of the profession. The claim that it's making it like every other class wouldn't hold water either. Guardian has 3 hot bar abilities, Mesmer has 4, and Engineer has 5. So in actuality, you wouldn't be making them like every other profession. Plus, after 6 years of play, you really can't make a change like that without angering a portion of your playerbase (how much is beyond me but it would be bad to assume that the opinions on the shortcomings of the profession on the forums is held with the greater gaming public. The forum is a small sample of the players). Thus, a change of this nature would be read as dumbing down the profession and it would be hard to argue against that.

    Hardcore mode should be a playstyle choice..not a design concept, you let people decide how they want to play with their class...not ask all players who enjoy ele concept to go and play hardcore mode for the sake of it. Any change will always anger some players but for quality purposes that's irrelevant at best...if 8 professions out of 9 are easy mode for an easy mode game...we can't have 1 profession hard mode for the sake of every single white fly

    That doesn't work. Designing two levels of a profession would just make the balance issues far worse. It would effectively increase the number of factions in the game and as you include more and more factions the balancing of it all gets worse. To be frank, the player has to adjust to the profession, not the other way around. It is impossible to design a faction in a game in such a way that its playstyle is something that everyone who agrees with the concept will like. There are folks who love the concept for Revenant but hate the Energy mechanic and not being able to pick their utilities. Anyone who wants to play Revenant HAS to adjust to the profession. You can design a faction so that it allows for more than one playstyle but there is no way to design one in a way that it would be able to meet everyone's playstyle preferences. So on some level, a player **HAS **to adjust to the faction they want to play.

    As for the quality of purpose ...... there is no way of knowing if your issues with the profession are actually held by a majority of the people who play the game. The forums is a horrible, horrible, horrible way to tell if people like or hate something. The forums tend to self select and the people who tend to spend the most time are the ones who are unhappy and voicing that displeasure. Not everyone mind you, but you are never going to get an accurate picture of the wants and desires of players. You'll get a picure of some but nowhere near enough where you can make the assumption that the way you feel about the profession is the way Elementalist players writ large feel. The quality of the purpose could mean that the profession remains as is.

    Also, you totally need to have one hard profession in a game. Not everyone wants to play something that is easy. Making all your factions in a game easy is going to upset people. They would argue that people who like an easy faction to play have plenty of choices and they have none and they would be correct. That's poor game design. Granted, Elementalist isn't the only hard profession in the game so claiming that there is just one hard profession and then eight easy ones is disingenuous, at best.

    It sucks when the design and play style of a faction goes against the way you want to play. However, that happens in most games. You are always going to have factions in a game in which the flavor of it is cool to someone but the way it works just doesn't work for them. It is impossible to deliver the kind of game you speak off outside of a single player experience. Some people will have to accept that the profession whose flavor they identify with is simply something they can't play. There are people who love it and it would be wrong to take that away from them just to appease another set of people. That would is a sure fire way to kill your game.

    Your argument does entirely not apply to ele, the class was not meant to be hardcore to such degree where you need 300% effort to beat even your average player on other professions, being harder to play it's ok but no to such an extent where your entire toolset is nothing but a mockery of what other professions can do.

    You compare ele to revenant where those who master it , we'll go and lay waste from pvp to wvw, be it duels or large zerg fights and that's not the case with ele where mastering it doesn't bring you anything but a moral accolade

    The class is not hardcore, but its deliberately complex, and aimed at players that like that type of gameplay. Balance is an entirely different concern that is concerned with power and mitigation levels. Its the latter that needs tweaked not skill choices and gameplay style.

    Balance itself would means dumbing down the profession is some people's eyes

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

  • Teevell.1684Teevell.1684 Member ✭✭
    edited November 25, 2018

    I'm not a game dev, so I'm not sure how to fix Ele, but something is definitely off with this class. I just came back after a two-year break, and am really loving weaver, but everything is easier/less frustrating to do in this game on one of my other characters (ranger, necro at the moment but I played around on my engi and thief too) than it is on my Ele. By a large margin. I honestly don't think at this point I'll even finish the PoF story on that character because some fights are so hard to get past, whereas I got through them first try on my other classes. It's not that I want Ele to be a cakewalk, and I know it's not impossible to do this content on them, it's that the difference in difficulty between Ele and the other classes really struck me.

    So yeah, I agree that Ele needs some work. The reward for the effort just isn't there like it is in other classes.

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ganathar.4956 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @Dace.8173 said:

    @MyPuppy.8970 said:
    Solution :
    Make these points baseline :

    • increased attack power and condi damage when in fire.
    • increased vitality and healing power when in water.
    • increased precision and ferocity when in air
    • increased vitality and toughness when in earth.
      Numbers would be maybe +120 per stat, not lingering when you switch attunement. That alone would give purpose to having attunements besides more weapon skills that you need to combo to get anything out of them. Of course you could further improve those stats by traiting in the desired line. So add + 180 condi damage in fire, +180 healing power in water. Air and earth already have +180 precision and toughness. Not by default for air, so just remove +25% speed it's useless anyway.

    Furthermore:

    Remove cd reduction on utilities. Replace the traits to give additionnal utility to them.

    Instead:

    Pyromancer's training : CD reduction on fire skills, fire attunement recharge/overloads/dual skills, and fire glyphs, fire signet, cleansing fire cantrip, fire shouts, fire conjures, etc you see my point.
    Same for Aquamancer's, Aeromancer's, Geomancer's.

    Arcane line could stay the same i guess.

    Thoughts?

    I see this as being viable. With Earth and Water giving you two bumps in vitality you'll have more HP. That alone would go a long way.

    @Dabrixmgp.4758 said:
    i feel like atunements should just be combined to give Ele a weapon swap feel. Combine earth and water into a single attunement since they are defense and support then combine fire and air since they are more damage oriented. That isn't a dumbing down of the class, its making them like every other class with 2 hotbars of abilities. Then balancing will be easier to do since you just got rid of half the abilities.

    There is no way you can do this and it wouldn't be called dumbing the profession down. For the people who like the micromanagement involved reducing that will be viewed as a dumbing down of the profession. The claim that it's making it like every other class wouldn't hold water either. Guardian has 3 hot bar abilities, Mesmer has 4, and Engineer has 5. So in actuality, you wouldn't be making them like every other profession. Plus, after 6 years of play, you really can't make a change like that without angering a portion of your playerbase (how much is beyond me but it would be bad to assume that the opinions on the shortcomings of the profession on the forums is held with the greater gaming public. The forum is a small sample of the players). Thus, a change of this nature would be read as dumbing down the profession and it would be hard to argue against that.

    Hardcore mode should be a playstyle choice..not a design concept, you let people decide how they want to play with their class...not ask all players who enjoy ele concept to go and play hardcore mode for the sake of it. Any change will always anger some players but for quality purposes that's irrelevant at best...if 8 professions out of 9 are easy mode for an easy mode game...we can't have 1 profession hard mode for the sake of every single white fly

    This still doesn't justify removing attunements. Just because attunements exist, it doesn't mean that every single good build has to be difficult to play. Elementalist has had some easier builds in the past.

    Also look at engineer. Holosmith simplified engi a lot, and it wouldn't surprise me at all if Anet had that sort of design goal with the next e-spec. Weaver was designed to be the most complex and they won't do that with ele again.

    Removing attunements would take immense design effort. Not only would every single aspect of core ele would need to be rebalanced, but there would also have to be a new class mechanic. Weaver and tempest mechanics would also need to be scrapped and redesigned. All of this effort is completely unnecessary. What the devs have to do is stop being afraid of buffing ele. It has been over a year and the class doesn't feel much stronger than it was on PoF release. It's a weak class so stop being so conservative with the buffs. We can't be waiting for 2 more years until the next expansion for this to be fixed.

    Holosmith is not an engi with new elite, the whole class has solid traitlines that make holosmith the powerhouse it is...you cannot build a castle on sand, the traitlines on ele have not be buffed since 4 years ago, like earth trait line received only nerfs since Dec 2013...no change whatsoever

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

  • Ganathar.4956Ganathar.4956 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 26, 2018

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @Ganathar.4956 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @Dace.8173 said:

    @MyPuppy.8970 said:
    Solution :
    Make these points baseline :

    • increased attack power and condi damage when in fire.
    • increased vitality and healing power when in water.
    • increased precision and ferocity when in air
    • increased vitality and toughness when in earth.
      Numbers would be maybe +120 per stat, not lingering when you switch attunement. That alone would give purpose to having attunements besides more weapon skills that you need to combo to get anything out of them. Of course you could further improve those stats by traiting in the desired line. So add + 180 condi damage in fire, +180 healing power in water. Air and earth already have +180 precision and toughness. Not by default for air, so just remove +25% speed it's useless anyway.

    Furthermore:

    Remove cd reduction on utilities. Replace the traits to give additionnal utility to them.

    Instead:

    Pyromancer's training : CD reduction on fire skills, fire attunement recharge/overloads/dual skills, and fire glyphs, fire signet, cleansing fire cantrip, fire shouts, fire conjures, etc you see my point.
    Same for Aquamancer's, Aeromancer's, Geomancer's.

    Arcane line could stay the same i guess.

    Thoughts?

    I see this as being viable. With Earth and Water giving you two bumps in vitality you'll have more HP. That alone would go a long way.

    @Dabrixmgp.4758 said:
    i feel like atunements should just be combined to give Ele a weapon swap feel. Combine earth and water into a single attunement since they are defense and support then combine fire and air since they are more damage oriented. That isn't a dumbing down of the class, its making them like every other class with 2 hotbars of abilities. Then balancing will be easier to do since you just got rid of half the abilities.

    There is no way you can do this and it wouldn't be called dumbing the profession down. For the people who like the micromanagement involved reducing that will be viewed as a dumbing down of the profession. The claim that it's making it like every other class wouldn't hold water either. Guardian has 3 hot bar abilities, Mesmer has 4, and Engineer has 5. So in actuality, you wouldn't be making them like every other profession. Plus, after 6 years of play, you really can't make a change like that without angering a portion of your playerbase (how much is beyond me but it would be bad to assume that the opinions on the shortcomings of the profession on the forums is held with the greater gaming public. The forum is a small sample of the players). Thus, a change of this nature would be read as dumbing down the profession and it would be hard to argue against that.

    Hardcore mode should be a playstyle choice..not a design concept, you let people decide how they want to play with their class...not ask all players who enjoy ele concept to go and play hardcore mode for the sake of it. Any change will always anger some players but for quality purposes that's irrelevant at best...if 8 professions out of 9 are easy mode for an easy mode game...we can't have 1 profession hard mode for the sake of every single white fly

    This still doesn't justify removing attunements. Just because attunements exist, it doesn't mean that every single good build has to be difficult to play. Elementalist has had some easier builds in the past.

    Also look at engineer. Holosmith simplified engi a lot, and it wouldn't surprise me at all if Anet had that sort of design goal with the next e-spec. Weaver was designed to be the most complex and they won't do that with ele again.

    Removing attunements would take immense design effort. Not only would every single aspect of core ele would need to be rebalanced, but there would also have to be a new class mechanic. Weaver and tempest mechanics would also need to be scrapped and redesigned. All of this effort is completely unnecessary. What the devs have to do is stop being afraid of buffing ele. It has been over a year and the class doesn't feel much stronger than it was on PoF release. It's a weak class so stop being so conservative with the buffs. We can't be waiting for 2 more years until the next expansion for this to be fixed.

    Holosmith is not an engi with new elite, the whole class has solid traitlines that make holosmith the powerhouse it is...you cannot build a castle on sand, the traitlines on ele have not be buffed since 4 years ago, like earth trait line received only nerfs since Dec 2013...no change whatsoever

    I didn't even talk about how strong holosmith is. I only said that holosmith made the engineer much simpler. This happened mainly because of photon forge.

  • Dace.8173Dace.8173 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @Dace.8173 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @Dace.8173 said:

    @MyPuppy.8970 said:
    Solution :
    Make these points baseline :

    • increased attack power and condi damage when in fire.
    • increased vitality and healing power when in water.
    • increased precision and ferocity when in air
    • increased vitality and toughness when in earth.
      Numbers would be maybe +120 per stat, not lingering when you switch attunement. That alone would give purpose to having attunements besides more weapon skills that you need to combo to get anything out of them. Of course you could further improve those stats by traiting in the desired line. So add + 180 condi damage in fire, +180 healing power in water. Air and earth already have +180 precision and toughness. Not by default for air, so just remove +25% speed it's useless anyway.

    Furthermore:

    Remove cd reduction on utilities. Replace the traits to give additionnal utility to them.

    Instead:

    Pyromancer's training : CD reduction on fire skills, fire attunement recharge/overloads/dual skills, and fire glyphs, fire signet, cleansing fire cantrip, fire shouts, fire conjures, etc you see my point.
    Same for Aquamancer's, Aeromancer's, Geomancer's.

    Arcane line could stay the same i guess.

    Thoughts?

    I see this as being viable. With Earth and Water giving you two bumps in vitality you'll have more HP. That alone would go a long way.

    @Dabrixmgp.4758 said:
    i feel like atunements should just be combined to give Ele a weapon swap feel. Combine earth and water into a single attunement since they are defense and support then combine fire and air since they are more damage oriented. That isn't a dumbing down of the class, its making them like every other class with 2 hotbars of abilities. Then balancing will be easier to do since you just got rid of half the abilities.

    There is no way you can do this and it wouldn't be called dumbing the profession down. For the people who like the micromanagement involved reducing that will be viewed as a dumbing down of the profession. The claim that it's making it like every other class wouldn't hold water either. Guardian has 3 hot bar abilities, Mesmer has 4, and Engineer has 5. So in actuality, you wouldn't be making them like every other profession. Plus, after 6 years of play, you really can't make a change like that without angering a portion of your playerbase (how much is beyond me but it would be bad to assume that the opinions on the shortcomings of the profession on the forums is held with the greater gaming public. The forum is a small sample of the players). Thus, a change of this nature would be read as dumbing down the profession and it would be hard to argue against that.

    Hardcore mode should be a playstyle choice..not a design concept, you let people decide how they want to play with their class...not ask all players who enjoy ele concept to go and play hardcore mode for the sake of it. Any change will always anger some players but for quality purposes that's irrelevant at best...if 8 professions out of 9 are easy mode for an easy mode game...we can't have 1 profession hard mode for the sake of every single white fly

    That doesn't work. Designing two levels of a profession would just make the balance issues far worse. It would effectively increase the number of factions in the game and as you include more and more factions the balancing of it all gets worse. To be frank, the player has to adjust to the profession, not the other way around. It is impossible to design a faction in a game in such a way that its playstyle is something that everyone who agrees with the concept will like. There are folks who love the concept for Revenant but hate the Energy mechanic and not being able to pick their utilities. Anyone who wants to play Revenant HAS to adjust to the profession. You can design a faction so that it allows for more than one playstyle but there is no way to design one in a way that it would be able to meet everyone's playstyle preferences. So on some level, a player **HAS **to adjust to the faction they want to play.

    As for the quality of purpose ...... there is no way of knowing if your issues with the profession are actually held by a majority of the people who play the game. The forums is a horrible, horrible, horrible way to tell if people like or hate something. The forums tend to self select and the people who tend to spend the most time are the ones who are unhappy and voicing that displeasure. Not everyone mind you, but you are never going to get an accurate picture of the wants and desires of players. You'll get a picure of some but nowhere near enough where you can make the assumption that the way you feel about the profession is the way Elementalist players writ large feel. The quality of the purpose could mean that the profession remains as is.

    Also, you totally need to have one hard profession in a game. Not everyone wants to play something that is easy. Making all your factions in a game easy is going to upset people. They would argue that people who like an easy faction to play have plenty of choices and they have none and they would be correct. That's poor game design. Granted, Elementalist isn't the only hard profession in the game so claiming that there is just one hard profession and then eight easy ones is disingenuous, at best.

    It sucks when the design and play style of a faction goes against the way you want to play. However, that happens in most games. You are always going to have factions in a game in which the flavor of it is cool to someone but the way it works just doesn't work for them. It is impossible to deliver the kind of game you speak off outside of a single player experience. Some people will have to accept that the profession whose flavor they identify with is simply something they can't play. There are people who love it and it would be wrong to take that away from them just to appease another set of people. That would is a sure fire way to kill your game.

    Your argument does entirely not apply to ele, the class was not meant to be hardcore to such degree where you need 300% effort to beat even your average player on other professions, being harder to play it's ok but no to such an extent where your entire toolset is nothing but a mockery of what other professions can do.

    You compare ele to revenant where those who master it , we'll go and lay waste from pvp to wvw, be it duels or large zerg fights and that's not the case with ele where mastering it doesn't bring you anything but a moral accolade

    It applies. The profession does not require 300% effort to beat even your average player. If you are bad with the profession then yes it may be 300% more but if you're good then it will likely not be anywhere remotely near that 300%. You are creating an arbitrary figure and treating it as a fact. Your statement that it is a hardcore difficulty level profession is not a truth. It is your take. For other people, the profession is not hardcore difficult. Elementalist was made for those types of people. If we were to do as you suggest we would create angry players who like the profession as is but just want it buffed to be more competitive. Also, unless you have some quotes from the developers about what Elementalist was meant to be when it was built and how the way it works right now is 300% harder than what they intended then your statement that it was not meant to be hardcore to such a degree where you need 300% more effort is just your opinion on the difficulty level of the profession and not an actual fact on the professions difficulty level.

    It still doesn't counter the argument I actually made. Even if it does require 300% more effort that 300% more effort is aimed at people who want to play like that. Again, not every profession is going to be made in a way that the people who like the idea can play it. There is nothing wrong with that. What you are talking about is bad game design. It's ok that Elementalist isn't playable to everyone. That happens in a game. It is an unavoidable fact. You will always have people who just don't adapt well to some factions in a game. That doesn't mean the game was designed bad. That doesn't mean that the faction was designed bad. It just means that the mechanics just don't work for you. There was no way to create Elementalist where 100% of the people who like the concept would agree with the playstyle and mechanics.

    Also, you didn't get why I compared Elementalist to Revenant. Granted both professions are difficult to master the reason why I compared the two is that Revenant is a profession that some people wish worked differently like you are suggesting. There are elements that they don't like and that makes it unfun for them and they wish those elements were removed in order for the profession to play closer to how they want to play, like you. There are folks who feel that Revenant is hardcore and requires 300% more effort to win with, as you do. You may disagree with that statement and if you do then it highlights how arbitrary your statement that Elementalist is hardcore and requires 300% more effort than others.

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @Dace.8173 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @Dace.8173 said:

    @MyPuppy.8970 said:
    Solution :
    Make these points baseline :

    • increased attack power and condi damage when in fire.
    • increased vitality and healing power when in water.
    • increased precision and ferocity when in air
    • increased vitality and toughness when in earth.
      Numbers would be maybe +120 per stat, not lingering when you switch attunement. That alone would give purpose to having attunements besides more weapon skills that you need to combo to get anything out of them. Of course you could further improve those stats by traiting in the desired line. So add + 180 condi damage in fire, +180 healing power in water. Air and earth already have +180 precision and toughness. Not by default for air, so just remove +25% speed it's useless anyway.

    Furthermore:

    Remove cd reduction on utilities. Replace the traits to give additionnal utility to them.

    Instead:

    Pyromancer's training : CD reduction on fire skills, fire attunement recharge/overloads/dual skills, and fire glyphs, fire signet, cleansing fire cantrip, fire shouts, fire conjures, etc you see my point.
    Same for Aquamancer's, Aeromancer's, Geomancer's.

    Arcane line could stay the same i guess.

    Thoughts?

    I see this as being viable. With Earth and Water giving you two bumps in vitality you'll have more HP. That alone would go a long way.

    @Dabrixmgp.4758 said:
    i feel like atunements should just be combined to give Ele a weapon swap feel. Combine earth and water into a single attunement since they are defense and support then combine fire and air since they are more damage oriented. That isn't a dumbing down of the class, its making them like every other class with 2 hotbars of abilities. Then balancing will be easier to do since you just got rid of half the abilities.

    There is no way you can do this and it wouldn't be called dumbing the profession down. For the people who like the micromanagement involved reducing that will be viewed as a dumbing down of the profession. The claim that it's making it like every other class wouldn't hold water either. Guardian has 3 hot bar abilities, Mesmer has 4, and Engineer has 5. So in actuality, you wouldn't be making them like every other profession. Plus, after 6 years of play, you really can't make a change like that without angering a portion of your playerbase (how much is beyond me but it would be bad to assume that the opinions on the shortcomings of the profession on the forums is held with the greater gaming public. The forum is a small sample of the players). Thus, a change of this nature would be read as dumbing down the profession and it would be hard to argue against that.

    Hardcore mode should be a playstyle choice..not a design concept, you let people decide how they want to play with their class...not ask all players who enjoy ele concept to go and play hardcore mode for the sake of it. Any change will always anger some players but for quality purposes that's irrelevant at best...if 8 professions out of 9 are easy mode for an easy mode game...we can't have 1 profession hard mode for the sake of every single white fly

    That doesn't work. Designing two levels of a profession would just make the balance issues far worse. It would effectively increase the number of factions in the game and as you include more and more factions the balancing of it all gets worse. To be frank, the player has to adjust to the profession, not the other way around. It is impossible to design a faction in a game in such a way that its playstyle is something that everyone who agrees with the concept will like. There are folks who love the concept for Revenant but hate the Energy mechanic and not being able to pick their utilities. Anyone who wants to play Revenant HAS to adjust to the profession. You can design a faction so that it allows for more than one playstyle but there is no way to design one in a way that it would be able to meet everyone's playstyle preferences. So on some level, a player **HAS **to adjust to the faction they want to play.

    As for the quality of purpose ...... there is no way of knowing if your issues with the profession are actually held by a majority of the people who play the game. The forums is a horrible, horrible, horrible way to tell if people like or hate something. The forums tend to self select and the people who tend to spend the most time are the ones who are unhappy and voicing that displeasure. Not everyone mind you, but you are never going to get an accurate picture of the wants and desires of players. You'll get a picure of some but nowhere near enough where you can make the assumption that the way you feel about the profession is the way Elementalist players writ large feel. The quality of the purpose could mean that the profession remains as is.

    Also, you totally need to have one hard profession in a game. Not everyone wants to play something that is easy. Making all your factions in a game easy is going to upset people. They would argue that people who like an easy faction to play have plenty of choices and they have none and they would be correct. That's poor game design. Granted, Elementalist isn't the only hard profession in the game so claiming that there is just one hard profession and then eight easy ones is disingenuous, at best.

    It sucks when the design and play style of a faction goes against the way you want to play. However, that happens in most games. You are always going to have factions in a game in which the flavor of it is cool to someone but the way it works just doesn't work for them. It is impossible to deliver the kind of game you speak off outside of a single player experience. Some people will have to accept that the profession whose flavor they identify with is simply something they can't play. There are people who love it and it would be wrong to take that away from them just to appease another set of people. That would is a sure fire way to kill your game.

    Your argument does entirely not apply to ele, the class was not meant to be hardcore to such degree where you need 300% effort to beat even your average player on other professions, being harder to play it's ok but no to such an extent where your entire toolset is nothing but a mockery of what other professions can do.

    You compare ele to revenant where those who master it , we'll go and lay waste from pvp to wvw, be it duels or large zerg fights and that's not the case with ele where mastering it doesn't bring you anything but a moral accolade

    The class is not hardcore, but its deliberately complex, and aimed at players that like that type of gameplay. Balance is an entirely different concern that is concerned with power and mitigation levels. Its the latter that needs tweaked not skill choices and gameplay style.

    Balance itself would means dumbing down the profession is some people's eyes

    That is not true, on any level. You can balance Elementalist better without dumbing it down. The idea that a better balanced Ele is a dumb down Ele is just insane and ludicrous.

    @Ganathar.4956 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @Ganathar.4956 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @Dace.8173 said:

    @MyPuppy.8970 said:
    Solution :
    Make these points baseline :

    • increased attack power and condi damage when in fire.
    • increased vitality and healing power when in water.
    • increased precision and ferocity when in air
    • increased vitality and toughness when in earth.
      Numbers would be maybe +120 per stat, not lingering when you switch attunement. That alone would give purpose to having attunements besides more weapon skills that you need to combo to get anything out of them. Of course you could further improve those stats by traiting in the desired line. So add + 180 condi damage in fire, +180 healing power in water. Air and earth already have +180 precision and toughness. Not by default for air, so just remove +25% speed it's useless anyway.

    Furthermore:

    Remove cd reduction on utilities. Replace the traits to give additionnal utility to them.

    Instead:

    Pyromancer's training : CD reduction on fire skills, fire attunement recharge/overloads/dual skills, and fire glyphs, fire signet, cleansing fire cantrip, fire shouts, fire conjures, etc you see my point.
    Same for Aquamancer's, Aeromancer's, Geomancer's.

    Arcane line could stay the same i guess.

    Thoughts?

    I see this as being viable. With Earth and Water giving you two bumps in vitality you'll have more HP. That alone would go a long way.

    @Dabrixmgp.4758 said:
    i feel like atunements should just be combined to give Ele a weapon swap feel. Combine earth and water into a single attunement since they are defense and support then combine fire and air since they are more damage oriented. That isn't a dumbing down of the class, its making them like every other class with 2 hotbars of abilities. Then balancing will be easier to do since you just got rid of half the abilities.

    There is no way you can do this and it wouldn't be called dumbing the profession down. For the people who like the micromanagement involved reducing that will be viewed as a dumbing down of the profession. The claim that it's making it like every other class wouldn't hold water either. Guardian has 3 hot bar abilities, Mesmer has 4, and Engineer has 5. So in actuality, you wouldn't be making them like every other profession. Plus, after 6 years of play, you really can't make a change like that without angering a portion of your playerbase (how much is beyond me but it would be bad to assume that the opinions on the shortcomings of the profession on the forums is held with the greater gaming public. The forum is a small sample of the players). Thus, a change of this nature would be read as dumbing down the profession and it would be hard to argue against that.

    Hardcore mode should be a playstyle choice..not a design concept, you let people decide how they want to play with their class...not ask all players who enjoy ele concept to go and play hardcore mode for the sake of it. Any change will always anger some players but for quality purposes that's irrelevant at best...if 8 professions out of 9 are easy mode for an easy mode game...we can't have 1 profession hard mode for the sake of every single white fly

    This still doesn't justify removing attunements. Just because attunements exist, it doesn't mean that every single good build has to be difficult to play. Elementalist has had some easier builds in the past.

    Also look at engineer. Holosmith simplified engi a lot, and it wouldn't surprise me at all if Anet had that sort of design goal with the next e-spec. Weaver was designed to be the most complex and they won't do that with ele again.

    Removing attunements would take immense design effort. Not only would every single aspect of core ele would need to be rebalanced, but there would also have to be a new class mechanic. Weaver and tempest mechanics would also need to be scrapped and redesigned. All of this effort is completely unnecessary. What the devs have to do is stop being afraid of buffing ele. It has been over a year and the class doesn't feel much stronger than it was on PoF release. It's a weak class so stop being so conservative with the buffs. We can't be waiting for 2 more years until the next expansion for this to be fixed.

    Holosmith is not an engi with new elite, the whole class has solid traitlines that make holosmith the powerhouse it is...you cannot build a castle on sand, the traitlines on ele have not be buffed since 4 years ago, like earth trait line received only nerfs since Dec 2013...no change whatsoever

    I didn't even talk about how strong holosmith is. I only said that holosmith made the engineer much simpler. This happened mainly because of photon forge.

    And you'll notice that there is a lot of hate directed at Holosmith because a lot of Engineer players feel that Holosmith is Engineer on easy mode and that isn't how Engineer should work (I'm not one of them. I love both Scrapper and Holosmith). I point this out with your post to highlight the idea that making something easier or less complex is going to anger some fans of that profession (though my commentary is not directed at you personally but others who have been suggesting making Elementalist easier or changing its core mechanics).

    Overall, Elementalist can be made better as is. The idea that its hardcore play is just silly. It's more difficult than others but thats why its appealing to some people. There is never going to be a fix to the profession that will appease everyone. However, the worst road to walk down is one in which they redesign the profession to make it less complex. That will just lead to complaints that ANet doesn't understand what the players want. Additionally, if a redeisgn didn't make the profession better then ANet has made their problems much much worse. It is safer and better for them to just try to improve what they have right now instead of rolling the dice on an entirely new profession that people may still hate.

  • Zhaid Zhem.6508Zhaid Zhem.6508 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 26, 2018

    Tools+Alchemy+Holo have so much synergy;
    Swiftness > Vigor > +10% dmg : Hololeap, Thermal release Valve ( dmg + lost heat + heal)
    Photon Forge counts as a tool belt skill : Kinetic battery (without saying there is 2 traits that give 3 charges in the tools lane)
    Comeback cure, Regen when you remove a condi : prismatic converter, Transmute, healing turret, Elixir #
    Power Wrench : swiftness/vigor > Thermal release Valve > Elite skill CD reduction.
    Elixir in toolbelt : 15%+20% cd reduction !!??
    Coumpounding chemical : holo leap, corona burst, all elixirs (toolbelt + utility skills + passive one), optimized activatio, invigorating speed, healing turret, Kintetic battery, Comeback cure...

    Photon Forge is already completly broken, but all the specs work so strong together it's so absurd; Dmg boost, dmg reduction, boon stacking and a lot of sustain and cleansing...

    And weaver/elem, what do we have as synergy ?
    weaver/arcane/water : Swiftness > regen > 1 Condi cleanse. Wow Yes ! 3 lanes to remove a condition.
    Or auras : Aura > 1 condicleanse > Fury/swiftnss or protection ; applied to allies + heal with tempest; but you can't even have all the traits, you need to chose, and not between traits in the same spec, you need to chose between specs for one trait (like kitten earth spec, 5 years of uselessness)
    Weakness in air lane and the +15% precsion in weaver's trait.

    Don't forget you can't have them all in the same build, you can only chose one !
    Elem specs are very poor design. Specs are already not sufficient alones, but don't have good chemistry between them, and with utility skills. Making hard to build something and make connections between traits, skills, equipment, which worth the sacrifice of, or compensate a little, an other spec/build (aka weaver/arcane/water spam dodge and evades)

  • ReaverKane.7598ReaverKane.7598 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Jski.6180 said:
    Dps is coming from a 3ed partly program and leaves out a lot of info that is very important to a fight.
    You need to do your dmg vs up / down players dmg vs npc, the amount they are healing for ,how much dmg your running into dmg -% effect, how much dmg your runing into barrier, how many of your dmg is running up vs blocks and evasion, how much condi are you applying and how its getting cleard, what soft cc are you applying what, and boons your striping (ele cant strip any thing). There a lot going on in a fight in gw2 both pve and pvp and ele cant do most of the things they need to as a dps class. A program telling your numbers is not going to def how good or bad your doing as a class in a group but only how good and bad you are doing vs other ppl of the SAME class.

    Next time do your research before looking bad...
    ArcDPS actually has a log feature that allows you to see (and improve) all those, some, like boons are done live like DPS, the rest you can check in "Post-mortem" so you see what errors you (and your team mates) made.
    You also have websites like GW2 Raidar that also allow you to compare your performance and your group's with the rest of that community.

    Finally, dps doesn't come out of a 3rd party program... What the hell man, do you even know what that means??
    DPS is your damage output... If you look at the chat log, and have a chronometer (or time stamps) you can calculate it yourself. Also you can also use the Golem in the aerodrome to see your DPS using tools given to you by Arena Net. The only thing that the DPS meter does that you can't do yourself, is that it allows you to continuously do those measurements, logs them, and also allows you to see the rest of your partie's DPS allowing you to monitor theirs and your performance.

    A program telling and logging numbers is actually the only way you'll ever know with any certainty how good you're doing and where your mistakes were.

    Also, what does that rant have to do with anything in this thread? Are you that salty and biased that if you read the word DPS, you immediately go into a rant.

    Back on topic:
    Ele isn't that different than what it used to be.
    It was nerfed a bunch a while back, but was taken back up a few notches. So now it's not doing 10kDPS over the next best DPSer, but 1-2k more instead.
    That means other classes with more sustain and/or support options tend to become more useful.
    Of course ele also has several support and sustain options, the thing is, it's hard to fit them into the rotation.
    That's the problem with allowing problems to fester for years (like Necro's balance as well), there's been 2 elite specs that were built with a certain power level and role set in mind, then the posterior balance changes that, and they've failed to compensate so far.

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dace.8173 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @Dace.8173 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @Dace.8173 said:

    @MyPuppy.8970 said:
    Solution :
    Make these points baseline :

    • increased attack power and condi damage when in fire.
    • increased vitality and healing power when in water.
    • increased precision and ferocity when in air
    • increased vitality and toughness when in earth.
      Numbers would be maybe +120 per stat, not lingering when you switch attunement. That alone would give purpose to having attunements besides more weapon skills that you need to combo to get anything out of them. Of course you could further improve those stats by traiting in the desired line. So add + 180 condi damage in fire, +180 healing power in water. Air and earth already have +180 precision and toughness. Not by default for air, so just remove +25% speed it's useless anyway.

    Furthermore:

    Remove cd reduction on utilities. Replace the traits to give additionnal utility to them.

    Instead:

    Pyromancer's training : CD reduction on fire skills, fire attunement recharge/overloads/dual skills, and fire glyphs, fire signet, cleansing fire cantrip, fire shouts, fire conjures, etc you see my point.
    Same for Aquamancer's, Aeromancer's, Geomancer's.

    Arcane line could stay the same i guess.

    Thoughts?

    I see this as being viable. With Earth and Water giving you two bumps in vitality you'll have more HP. That alone would go a long way.

    @Dabrixmgp.4758 said:
    i feel like atunements should just be combined to give Ele a weapon swap feel. Combine earth and water into a single attunement since they are defense and support then combine fire and air since they are more damage oriented. That isn't a dumbing down of the class, its making them like every other class with 2 hotbars of abilities. Then balancing will be easier to do since you just got rid of half the abilities.

    There is no way you can do this and it wouldn't be called dumbing the profession down. For the people who like the micromanagement involved reducing that will be viewed as a dumbing down of the profession. The claim that it's making it like every other class wouldn't hold water either. Guardian has 3 hot bar abilities, Mesmer has 4, and Engineer has 5. So in actuality, you wouldn't be making them like every other profession. Plus, after 6 years of play, you really can't make a change like that without angering a portion of your playerbase (how much is beyond me but it would be bad to assume that the opinions on the shortcomings of the profession on the forums is held with the greater gaming public. The forum is a small sample of the players). Thus, a change of this nature would be read as dumbing down the profession and it would be hard to argue against that.

    Hardcore mode should be a playstyle choice..not a design concept, you let people decide how they want to play with their class...not ask all players who enjoy ele concept to go and play hardcore mode for the sake of it. Any change will always anger some players but for quality purposes that's irrelevant at best...if 8 professions out of 9 are easy mode for an easy mode game...we can't have 1 profession hard mode for the sake of every single white fly

    That doesn't work. Designing two levels of a profession would just make the balance issues far worse. It would effectively increase the number of factions in the game and as you include more and more factions the balancing of it all gets worse. To be frank, the player has to adjust to the profession, not the other way around. It is impossible to design a faction in a game in such a way that its playstyle is something that everyone who agrees with the concept will like. There are folks who love the concept for Revenant but hate the Energy mechanic and not being able to pick their utilities. Anyone who wants to play Revenant HAS to adjust to the profession. You can design a faction so that it allows for more than one playstyle but there is no way to design one in a way that it would be able to meet everyone's playstyle preferences. So on some level, a player **HAS **to adjust to the faction they want to play.

    As for the quality of purpose ...... there is no way of knowing if your issues with the profession are actually held by a majority of the people who play the game. The forums is a horrible, horrible, horrible way to tell if people like or hate something. The forums tend to self select and the people who tend to spend the most time are the ones who are unhappy and voicing that displeasure. Not everyone mind you, but you are never going to get an accurate picture of the wants and desires of players. You'll get a picure of some but nowhere near enough where you can make the assumption that the way you feel about the profession is the way Elementalist players writ large feel. The quality of the purpose could mean that the profession remains as is.

    Also, you totally need to have one hard profession in a game. Not everyone wants to play something that is easy. Making all your factions in a game easy is going to upset people. They would argue that people who like an easy faction to play have plenty of choices and they have none and they would be correct. That's poor game design. Granted, Elementalist isn't the only hard profession in the game so claiming that there is just one hard profession and then eight easy ones is disingenuous, at best.

    It sucks when the design and play style of a faction goes against the way you want to play. However, that happens in most games. You are always going to have factions in a game in which the flavor of it is cool to someone but the way it works just doesn't work for them. It is impossible to deliver the kind of game you speak off outside of a single player experience. Some people will have to accept that the profession whose flavor they identify with is simply something they can't play. There are people who love it and it would be wrong to take that away from them just to appease another set of people. That would is a sure fire way to kill your game.

    Your argument does entirely not apply to ele, the class was not meant to be hardcore to such degree where you need 300% effort to beat even your average player on other professions, being harder to play it's ok but no to such an extent where your entire toolset is nothing but a mockery of what other professions can do.

    You compare ele to revenant where those who master it , we'll go and lay waste from pvp to wvw, be it duels or large zerg fights and that's not the case with ele where mastering it doesn't bring you anything but a moral accolade

    It applies. The profession does not require 300% effort to beat even your average player. If you are bad with the profession then yes it may be 300% more but if you're good then it will likely not be anywhere remotely near that 300%. You are creating an arbitrary figure and treating it as a fact. Your statement that it is a hardcore difficulty level profession is not a truth. It is your take. For other people, the profession is not hardcore difficult. Elementalist was made for those types of people. If we were to do as you suggest we would create angry players who like the profession as is but just want it buffed to be more competitive. Also, unless you have some quotes from the developers about what Elementalist was meant to be when it was built and how the way it works right now is 300% harder than what they intended then your statement that it was not meant to be hardcore to such a degree where you need 300% more effort is just your opinion on the difficulty level of the profession and not an actual fact on the professions difficulty level.

    It still doesn't counter the argument I actually made. Even if it does require 300% more effort that 300% more effort is aimed at people who want to play like that. Again, not every profession is going to be made in a way that the people who like the idea can play it. There is nothing wrong with that. What you are talking about is bad game design. It's ok that Elementalist isn't playable to everyone. That happens in a game. It is an unavoidable fact. You will always have people who just don't adapt well to some factions in a game. That doesn't mean the game was designed bad. That doesn't mean that the faction was designed bad. It just means that the mechanics just don't work for you. There was no way to create Elementalist where 100% of the people who like the concept would agree with the playstyle and mechanics.

    Also, you didn't get why I compared Elementalist to Revenant. Granted both professions are difficult to master the reason why I compared the two is that Revenant is a profession that some people wish worked differently like you are suggesting. There are elements that they don't like and that makes it unfun for them and they wish those elements were removed in order for the profession to play closer to how they want to play, like you. There are folks who feel that Revenant is hardcore and requires 300% more effort to win with, as you do. You may disagree with that statement and if you do then it highlights how arbitrary your statement that Elementalist is hardcore and requires 300% more effort than others.

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @Dace.8173 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @Dace.8173 said:

    @MyPuppy.8970 said:
    Solution :
    Make these points baseline :

    • increased attack power and condi damage when in fire.
    • increased vitality and healing power when in water.
    • increased precision and ferocity when in air
    • increased vitality and toughness when in earth.
      Numbers would be maybe +120 per stat, not lingering when you switch attunement. That alone would give purpose to having attunements besides more weapon skills that you need to combo to get anything out of them. Of course you could further improve those stats by traiting in the desired line. So add + 180 condi damage in fire, +180 healing power in water. Air and earth already have +180 precision and toughness. Not by default for air, so just remove +25% speed it's useless anyway.

    Furthermore:

    Remove cd reduction on utilities. Replace the traits to give additionnal utility to them.

    Instead:

    Pyromancer's training : CD reduction on fire skills, fire attunement recharge/overloads/dual skills, and fire glyphs, fire signet, cleansing fire cantrip, fire shouts, fire conjures, etc you see my point.
    Same for Aquamancer's, Aeromancer's, Geomancer's.

    Arcane line could stay the same i guess.

    Thoughts?

    I see this as being viable. With Earth and Water giving you two bumps in vitality you'll have more HP. That alone would go a long way.

    @Dabrixmgp.4758 said:
    i feel like atunements should just be combined to give Ele a weapon swap feel. Combine earth and water into a single attunement since they are defense and support then combine fire and air since they are more damage oriented. That isn't a dumbing down of the class, its making them like every other class with 2 hotbars of abilities. Then balancing will be easier to do since you just got rid of half the abilities.

    There is no way you can do this and it wouldn't be called dumbing the profession down. For the people who like the micromanagement involved reducing that will be viewed as a dumbing down of the profession. The claim that it's making it like every other class wouldn't hold water either. Guardian has 3 hot bar abilities, Mesmer has 4, and Engineer has 5. So in actuality, you wouldn't be making them like every other profession. Plus, after 6 years of play, you really can't make a change like that without angering a portion of your playerbase (how much is beyond me but it would be bad to assume that the opinions on the shortcomings of the profession on the forums is held with the greater gaming public. The forum is a small sample of the players). Thus, a change of this nature would be read as dumbing down the profession and it would be hard to argue against that.

    Hardcore mode should be a playstyle choice..not a design concept, you let people decide how they want to play with their class...not ask all players who enjoy ele concept to go and play hardcore mode for the sake of it. Any change will always anger some players but for quality purposes that's irrelevant at best...if 8 professions out of 9 are easy mode for an easy mode game...we can't have 1 profession hard mode for the sake of every single white fly

    That doesn't work. Designing two levels of a profession would just make the balance issues far worse. It would effectively increase the number of factions in the game and as you include more and more factions the balancing of it all gets worse. To be frank, the player has to adjust to the profession, not the other way around. It is impossible to design a faction in a game in such a way that its playstyle is something that everyone who agrees with the concept will like. There are folks who love the concept for Revenant but hate the Energy mechanic and not being able to pick their utilities. Anyone who wants to play Revenant HAS to adjust to the profession. You can design a faction so that it allows for more than one playstyle but there is no way to design one in a way that it would be able to meet everyone's playstyle preferences. So on some level, a player **HAS **to adjust to the faction they want to play.

    As for the quality of purpose ...... there is no way of knowing if your issues with the profession are actually held by a majority of the people who play the game. The forums is a horrible, horrible, horrible way to tell if people like or hate something. The forums tend to self select and the people who tend to spend the most time are the ones who are unhappy and voicing that displeasure. Not everyone mind you, but you are never going to get an accurate picture of the wants and desires of players. You'll get a picure of some but nowhere near enough where you can make the assumption that the way you feel about the profession is the way Elementalist players writ large feel. The quality of the purpose could mean that the profession remains as is.

    Also, you totally need to have one hard profession in a game. Not everyone wants to play something that is easy. Making all your factions in a game easy is going to upset people. They would argue that people who like an easy faction to play have plenty of choices and they have none and they would be correct. That's poor game design. Granted, Elementalist isn't the only hard profession in the game so claiming that there is just one hard profession and then eight easy ones is disingenuous, at best.

    It sucks when the design and play style of a faction goes against the way you want to play. However, that happens in most games. You are always going to have factions in a game in which the flavor of it is cool to someone but the way it works just doesn't work for them. It is impossible to deliver the kind of game you speak off outside of a single player experience. Some people will have to accept that the profession whose flavor they identify with is simply something they can't play. There are people who love it and it would be wrong to take that away from them just to appease another set of people. That would is a sure fire way to kill your game.

    Your argument does entirely not apply to ele, the class was not meant to be hardcore to such degree where you need 300% effort to beat even your average player on other professions, being harder to play it's ok but no to such an extent where your entire toolset is nothing but a mockery of what other professions can do.

    You compare ele to revenant where those who master it , we'll go and lay waste from pvp to wvw, be it duels or large zerg fights and that's not the case with ele where mastering it doesn't bring you anything but a moral accolade

    The class is not hardcore, but its deliberately complex, and aimed at players that like that type of gameplay. Balance is an entirely different concern that is concerned with power and mitigation levels. Its the latter that needs tweaked not skill choices and gameplay style.

    Balance itself would means dumbing down the profession is some people's eyes

    That is not true, on any level. You can balance Elementalist better without dumbing it down. The idea that a better balanced Ele is a dumb down Ele is just insane and ludicrous.

    @Ganathar.4956 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @Ganathar.4956 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @Dace.8173 said:

    @MyPuppy.8970 said:
    Solution :
    Make these points baseline :

    • increased attack power and condi damage when in fire.
    • increased vitality and healing power when in water.
    • increased precision and ferocity when in air
    • increased vitality and toughness when in earth.
      Numbers would be maybe +120 per stat, not lingering when you switch attunement. That alone would give purpose to having attunements besides more weapon skills that you need to combo to get anything out of them. Of course you could further improve those stats by traiting in the desired line. So add + 180 condi damage in fire, +180 healing power in water. Air and earth already have +180 precision and toughness. Not by default for air, so just remove +25% speed it's useless anyway.

    Furthermore:

    Remove cd reduction on utilities. Replace the traits to give additionnal utility to them.

    Instead:

    Pyromancer's training : CD reduction on fire skills, fire attunement recharge/overloads/dual skills, and fire glyphs, fire signet, cleansing fire cantrip, fire shouts, fire conjures, etc you see my point.
    Same for Aquamancer's, Aeromancer's, Geomancer's.

    Arcane line could stay the same i guess.

    Thoughts?

    I see this as being viable. With Earth and Water giving you two bumps in vitality you'll have more HP. That alone would go a long way.

    @Dabrixmgp.4758 said:
    i feel like atunements should just be combined to give Ele a weapon swap feel. Combine earth and water into a single attunement since they are defense and support then combine fire and air since they are more damage oriented. That isn't a dumbing down of the class, its making them like every other class with 2 hotbars of abilities. Then balancing will be easier to do since you just got rid of half the abilities.

    There is no way you can do this and it wouldn't be called dumbing the profession down. For the people who like the micromanagement involved reducing that will be viewed as a dumbing down of the profession. The claim that it's making it like every other class wouldn't hold water either. Guardian has 3 hot bar abilities, Mesmer has 4, and Engineer has 5. So in actuality, you wouldn't be making them like every other profession. Plus, after 6 years of play, you really can't make a change like that without angering a portion of your playerbase (how much is beyond me but it would be bad to assume that the opinions on the shortcomings of the profession on the forums is held with the greater gaming public. The forum is a small sample of the players). Thus, a change of this nature would be read as dumbing down the profession and it would be hard to argue against that.

    Hardcore mode should be a playstyle choice..not a design concept, you let people decide how they want to play with their class...not ask all players who enjoy ele concept to go and play hardcore mode for the sake of it. Any change will always anger some players but for quality purposes that's irrelevant at best...if 8 professions out of 9 are easy mode for an easy mode game...we can't have 1 profession hard mode for the sake of every single white fly

    This still doesn't justify removing attunements. Just because attunements exist, it doesn't mean that every single good build has to be difficult to play. Elementalist has had some easier builds in the past.

    Also look at engineer. Holosmith simplified engi a lot, and it wouldn't surprise me at all if Anet had that sort of design goal with the next e-spec. Weaver was designed to be the most complex and they won't do that with ele again.

    Removing attunements would take immense design effort. Not only would every single aspect of core ele would need to be rebalanced, but there would also have to be a new class mechanic. Weaver and tempest mechanics would also need to be scrapped and redesigned. All of this effort is completely unnecessary. What the devs have to do is stop being afraid of buffing ele. It has been over a year and the class doesn't feel much stronger than it was on PoF release. It's a weak class so stop being so conservative with the buffs. We can't be waiting for 2 more years until the next expansion for this to be fixed.

    Holosmith is not an engi with new elite, the whole class has solid traitlines that make holosmith the powerhouse it is...you cannot build a castle on sand, the traitlines on ele have not be buffed since 4 years ago, like earth trait line received only nerfs since Dec 2013...no change whatsoever

    I didn't even talk about how strong holosmith is. I only said that holosmith made the engineer much simpler. This happened mainly because of photon forge.

    And you'll notice that there is a lot of hate directed at Holosmith because a lot of Engineer players feel that Holosmith is Engineer on easy mode and that isn't how Engineer should work (I'm not one of them. I love both Scrapper and Holosmith). I point this out with your post to highlight the idea that making something easier or less complex is going to anger some fans of that profession (though my commentary is not directed at you personally but others who have been suggesting making Elementalist easier or changing its core mechanics).

    Overall, Elementalist can be made better as is. The idea that its hardcore play is just silly. It's more difficult than others but thats why its appealing to some people. There is never going to be a fix to the profession that will appease everyone. However, the worst road to walk down is one in which they redesign the profession to make it less complex. That will just lead to complaints that ANet doesn't understand what the players want. Additionally, if a redeisgn didn't make the profession better then ANet has made their problems much much worse. It is safer and better for them to just try to improve what they have right now instead of rolling the dice on an entirely new profession that people may still hate.

    As somebody with over 8000 hours and couple pvp legendaries titles I will go and have the audacity to say that my statements are anything but arbitrary! Again my argument remains : complexity for the sake of complexity is not a desireable design concept and I am getting rather dizzy at all the elitist talk going on with the class right now.

    Victory in itself is meaningless if you don't realise how it's achieved : in PvP you all play healing bunker, go and try to outsustain specs tailored for competitive gameplay and not snoozefest circus but you lot forget that other professions can decide to go snoozefest mode also and entertain your weaver healbot build for all day, do you realise that?

    The spec considered "viable" ele build is nothing more than a mockery of other professions : close to no synergy between traits, ridicolous CD and animations cast times for mediocre damage skill and all you do is stack as many defensive options as possible, go there and press earthen vortex/riptide/twist of fate in sequence calling it skillfull gameplay.....other try hard will play a pseudo thief style build with none of the disengage or damage/ +1 potential.

    Everytime I see a weaver in pvp...I cap the point and run if I see him coming..otherwise I run the risk of falling asleep on the keyboard, yes you cap the point and stand there like a pretty doll, I go other 2 pts and rekt your whole team then come with 2 and send the healbot build back to spawn, rinse and repeat till I win the game.
    In wvw I start to dance then laugh then wave and sprint off..because again I don't waste half day dancing with a healbot.

    Nobody wants to stand there and watch 2 eles fightning and why is that?...Because of the moronic design, those 2 eles will be healbot with 1k+ healing power tickling at each other for hours , where is the skillful gameplay?, is running a cellofrag build considered skillful gameplay?...ops did I give credit to this guy for playing the only possible stat/trait combo on ele?..my bad, I tend to forget that this is in truth the only trait/stat combo, eles have used since Septmber 2012.

    I genuinenly, honestly ask you to forgive me for my bluntness and sarcasm but I had just enough of this :" if ele it's too difficult for you, don't play" talk , I played this class for close to 9000 hours up to semi finals in tournies and legend division during past seasons, reached rank 1370 in wvw and finished 90% of all pve content in this game so I think to know wth I am talking about

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

  • Stallic.2397Stallic.2397 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 26, 2018

    @Ganathar.4956 said:
    This still doesn't justify removing attunements. Just because attunements exist, it doesn't mean that every single good build has to be difficult to play. Elementalist has had some easier builds in the past.

    Also look at engineer. Holosmith simplified engi a lot, and it wouldn't surprise me at all if Anet had that sort of design goal with the next e-spec. Weaver was designed to be the most complex and they won't do that with ele again.

    Removing attunements would take immense design effort. Not only would every single aspect of core ele would need to be rebalanced, but there would also have to be a new class mechanic. Weaver and tempest mechanics would also need to be scrapped and redesigned. All of this effort is completely unnecessary. What the devs have to do is stop being afraid of buffing ele. It has been over a year and the class doesn't feel much stronger than it was on PoF release. It's a weak class so stop being so conservative with the buffs. We can't be waiting for 2 more years until the next expansion for this to be fixed.

    This ^. Ele just needs buffs. Not complex changes. There are specific fixes that Tempest and Weaver need to reach meta, but the real problem is Core Traits.

    @Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:
    And weaver/elem, what do we have as synergy ?
    weaver/arcane/water : Swiftness > regen > 1 Condi cleanse. Wow Yes ! 3 lanes to remove a condition.
    Or auras : Aura > 1 condicleanse > Fury/swiftnss or protection ; applied to allies + heal with tempest; but you can't even have all the traits, you need to chose, and not between traits in the same spec, you need to chose between specs for one trait.
    Weakness in air lane and the +15% precsion in weaver's trait.

    Don't forget you can't have them all in the same build, you can only chose one !
    Elem specs are very poor design. Specs are already not sufficient alones, but don't have good chemistry between them, and with utility skills. Making hard to build something and make connections between traits, skills, equipment, which worth the sacrifice of, or compensate a little, an other spec/build (aka weaver/arcane/water spam dodge and evades)

    ^ Fully agree- Trying to find synergy with both elites is near impossible. Weaver has to go with arcane and whatever third spec you pick will still be useless (even water, cause then you're just a healing bot). Tempest has the same problem. Buffs on aura's is spread out between air, water, and earth. But you can only pick 2! Ele's are forced to spec a certain way, and even when they do, the build is just average.

    There have been multiple threads that suggest how to buff core traits. At this point, the devs just need to throw a dart at one of them and tada! Ele is automatically buffed more than what they are now.

  • lLobo.7960lLobo.7960 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 26, 2018

    @MyPuppy.8970 said:
    Solution :
    Make these points baseline :

    • increased attack power and condi damage when in fire.
    • increased vitality and healing power when in water.
    • increased precision and ferocity when in air
    • increased vitality and toughness when in earth.
      Numbers would be maybe +120 per stat, not lingering when you switch attunement. That alone would give purpose to having attunements besides more weapon skills that you need to combo to get anything out of them. Of course you could further improve those stats by traiting in the desired line. So add + 180 condi damage in fire, +180 healing power in water. Air and earth already have +180 precision and toughness. Not by default for air, so just remove +25% speed it's useless anyway.

    Giving it as baseline would be too much and too blank. I much prefer those stats bonuses to go as minor traits (as fire and earth are). And also they should be only on the specific attunement, but more powerful than currently:
    - Fire: increased power and condition damage;
    - Air: increased precision and ferocity;
    - Water: regen and increased healing power;
    - Earth: increased toughness and expertise;
    Vitality has the issue to reduce your hp when attuning out of an element, what can instant kill you, so it's not a good option.

    Then, it would be great for the trait "lingering elements" to come back. It was a trait that extended the attunement bonuses for 5 sec. So traiting arcane, you could quickly leave an attunement, without loosing its benefits for long. If that trait was extended to work with all attunement bonuses (higher dmg in fire, higher ferocity in air, etc) it could make great synergy.

    Furthermore, improving attributes in each elemental traitline can open the possibility of a elite spec that shares the element bonuses with its group (monk?) giving the opportunity of unique buff to the ele. And while a single ele will only able to share maximum one element bonus at a time, an arcane ele, taking lingering elements, would be able to share a single element bonus for longer while it swaps attunements... Lots of interesting possibilities.

    I've proposed some similar things on here: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/59263/elementalist-traitlines-for-the-current-state-of-the-game

  • Dace.8173Dace.8173 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 26, 2018

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    As somebody with over 8000 hours and couple pvp legendaries titles I will go and have the audacity to say that my statements are anything but arbitrary! Again my argument remains : complexity for the sake of complexity is not a desireable design concept and I am getting rather dizzy at all the elitist talk going on with the class right now.

    I honestly don't care how many hours and how many titles you have. Your statements are arbitrary. Tossing out a title doesn't make it any less arbitrary. What would do that is quoting some kind of official source that supports your statements. Without an actual cited source, your statements are arbitrary. There are folks that would disagree with your assessment of the difficulty level and they're opinion and assessment are as valid as yours.

    Also, I don't see any elitist talk. People are just expressing that the LIKE the profession the way it is (disagreeing with your statement that the profession is complex is not elitism). Complexity for the sake of complexity is an arbitrary assessment on your part (find an official source that says the profession is complex for the sake of). There are a lot of folks who like that complexity and I dare say you have yet to provide anything worthwhile that would indicate that your assessment on the complexity is correct or holds more weight than anyone else on this thread who have said they simply want the profession improved but not changed outright. Complexity is a wholly subjective position. Not everyone will, or does, see this profession as complex. Instead, they see it as difficult to master or hard to play. I don't find the profession to be complex. It's just a micromanage profession. The challenge is in getting the working parts to come together in a winning way. That isn't really all that complex. If the profession were a bit stronger most people who play it would have better results, overall.

    Victory in itself is meaningless if you don't realise how it's achieved : in PvP you all play healing bunker, go and try to outsustain specs tailored for competitive gameplay and not snoozefest circus but you lot forget that other professions can decide to go snoozefest mode also and entertain your weaver healbot build for all day, do you realise that?

    There are people who realize how it is achieved. The problem they have isn't that they don't know how to win but that the profession is not strong enough to win. Do not mistake underpowered for hard. As a matter of fact, you aren't even discussing something that is complex in this paragraph. You're discussing something that is underpowered. The ability of other specs to outsustain Elementalist is due to its inability to push a high enough DPS level to apply proper pressure. It's not complex to do, it just doesn't work due to not being strong enough. If the profession were stronger the current methods people use now would work.

    The spec considered "viable" ele build is nothing more than a mockery of other professions : close to no synergy between traits, ridicolous CD and animations cast times for mediocre damage skill and all you do is stack as many defensive options as possible, go there and press earthen vortex/riptide/twist of fate in sequence calling it skillfull gameplay.....other try hard will play a pseudo thief style build with none of the disengage or damage/ +1 potential.

    Lack of synergy is not a complexity issue but a balance issue. CD and animations are not complexity issues they are balance issues. Just because other people can win easier doesn't mean the profession is complex. The profession is a micromanage profession. That raises the skill cap to win with it. People like how the profession works though. You have yet to say anything that would justify changing how it works as opposed to improving synergy and overall buffing it.

    Everytime I see a weaver in pvp...I cap the point and run if I see him coming..otherwise I run the risk of falling asleep on the keyboard, yes you cap the point and stand >there like a pretty doll, I go other 2 pts and rekt your whole team then come with 2 and send the healbot build back to spawn, rinse and repeat till I win the game.
    In wvw I start to dance then laugh then wave and sprint off..because again I don't waste half day dancing with a healbot.

    If you fall asleep at the keyboard that sounds like a personal problem. None of what you say here is related to the complexity of the profession, more so since you are not actually playing it in these examples. These comments speak to the power level of the profession, not its complexity.

    Nobody wants to stand there and watch 2 eles fightning and why is that?...Because of the moronic design, those 2 eles will be healbot with 1k+ healing power tickling at each other for hours , where is the skillful gameplay?, is running a cellofrag build considered skillful gameplay?...ops did I give credit to this guy for playing the only possible stat/trait combo on ele?..my bad, I tend to forget that this is in truth the only trait/stat combo, eles have used since Septmber 2012.

    No one wants to stand there and watch two Deadeyes snipe at each other. Is Theif too complex because of that? If you say no then you've invalidated the point you were attempting to make. Not wanting to watch two Elementalist fight is, again, not an issue of complexity. Those folks who don't want to see it are, again, not even playing the profession so that is not an inference of complexity. However, you are still not discussing complexity. Again, your example is discussing the fact that Elementalist is underpowered. If the profession had more synergy and was a bit stronger then you'd see the results of skillful play.

    I genuinenly, honestly ask you to forgive me for my bluntness and sarcasm but I had just enough of this :" if ele it's too difficult for you, don't play" talk , I played this class for close to 9000 hours up to semi finals in tournies and legend division during past seasons, reached rank 1370 in wvw and finished 90% of all pve content in this game so I think to know wth I am talking about

    No one is saying that. However, if you make an argument about the complexity level of the profession when the actual problem (and your examples) are related to balance issues, then you are naturally going to have people tell you that it's too difficult for you to play. People like how difficult Elementalist is. If it's not to your liking that's cool. But you do not have an inherent right to take something away from the people who already love what it is and just want it to be more powerful. There are roughly five other professions that are not all that complex to play. That means that people who like a more difficult play experience don't have that many professions to choose from. Why does your desire for a less complex profession matter more than their desire for a more complex play experience?

  • Zhaid Zhem.6508Zhaid Zhem.6508 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 30, 2018

    Since 2012 we're forced to play bunker water/arcane and healing power amulet (or celestial); it's starting to be REALLY annoying
    So people say "low HP" Okai, so can we get a look at Thief and Guardian ? Variety of builds and amulet during these years ... ah ... yeah ... okai ...
    Why ? Because of better specs, better buffs, better synergy, better utility skills; close gap, disengage, better dmg, better AA (try to kill someone with sword AA, he'll die starving long before). It's stupid; "AA" ... why would like to kill someone with AA ? Yeah but sword has low range, poor close-gap / movement condition (15cd air#2) needs a "semi-motionless" target to cast, or worst immobilizes you. So you want to chase someone, or you're out of "dps" skills ? Too bad for you.

    Elem was a hybrid class, because of gameplay : attunements/weapon skills, combos... ; and ... okai, why not. I remember fire/water/arcane d/d, it was crazy. But look at spec ? Do you really feel the "hybrid" in just air spec ? Or earth Spec ? No, you don't. Tere is no versatility, there is no synergy. You have 4 attunements, 4 facets, but you need to buff them all separatly. The best evidence there is no synergy : ALL panic traits trigger at the SAME Threshold BUT don't even work good together; they didn't event read the other man's job before coding the differents specs.
    But all classes, thanks to e-spec and power creep; are now able to be very specialised WHILE being self-sufficient : They keep their "specialised" role but they now have so much possibilites to also cleanse all their defects. Some of classes RUN THE SAME SPECS, no matter if they play Condition, Power or even Tank, support : because of better specs, better skills etc etc........

    And elem, they gave elem a MELEE SPEC but without any proper sustain in the utility skills and traits. Barrier; Oh thank you Anet, what a gift, poor base barrier, still need healing power and vitality, it pulses, it doesn't last long, no mechanic attached to barriers, it's just... useless. Otherwise no decent AA, no decent close-gap, one (and already nerfed) obvious "disengage" (riptide), no block/counter attack, no invu, no condi cleanse, poor stab, not even some "power" boons like stack of might or quickness, WORST healing skill of all classes. So you're still stuck in water, and arcane. The joke is when you read you need vitality to earn precision, like they already knew weaver would instant die without so they give us something to compensate. The more I read the skills and taits, the less I understand the point of weaver. Is this really a DPS spec ? (because thank to weaver they nerfed the staff) Or when I read the Aqua stance, elite stance, and water sword skills, a melee healer ? Both ? Hybrid ? AGAIN??
    Tempest; let's make elem more hybrid and so, underperforming in all roles. Auramancer ? You take fire spec, or earth spec, or air spec, + water spec to buff aura, so basically 5/6 traits of the spec are not used, or not to support allies. And, bonjour, FB is here now, more stab, more cleansing, more heals, more boons, more more more. And a dps spec ? In pvp/wvw ? Never seen.

    So yes ELE IS BAD. Not because players are bad, but 1) because others classes got so much powercreep, 2) because they forgot they designed something "hybrid" and rather give elem strong choice to specialize, and compensate the lose of a spec, they leave us with clumsy "hybrid" e-spec.
    But the issue, it doesn't make elem a "better hybrid" The straights DPS, Support and sustain have departed : you have no choice in the weapons, in the skills, in the spec to have a bit of all, but you can't excel anymore at the same level than other where on the contrary the straights are reconciled.

    While they gave them so much love, so much powercreep, so much synergy to other classes WITHOUT being dependent to vitality/toughness/healing power. Holo spamming 25 mights and quickness, fury, regen, protection, stab and heals while cc and bursting you, mirage 36 clones, stealths, cloak, blur, teleport while doing a 2secondes 15-18k dmg combo in glass-cannon ; Soulbeast/druid spamming 25 mights and quickness, fury, regen, protection, heals; Untouchable daredevil, meta scourge bombs in WvW, FB bunker + ALLIES support ...

    PLEASE ANET : NERF HEALING POWER SWORD WEAVER ! Let us die, kill this insanity. And help us to rebirth in something new.

    I love weaver, I love elem, I keep try hard. But I can't be such sentimental, elem is NOT meta, nor "good", not even in pve/raid right now.

  • MyPuppy.8970MyPuppy.8970 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 26, 2018

    @lLobo.7960 said:

    @MyPuppy.8970 said:
    Solution :
    Make these points baseline :

    • increased attack power and condi damage when in fire.
    • increased vitality and healing power when in water.
    • increased precision and ferocity when in air
    • increased vitality and toughness when in earth.
      Numbers would be maybe +120 per stat, not lingering when you switch attunement. That alone would give purpose to having attunements besides more weapon skills that you need to combo to get anything out of them. Of course you could further improve those stats by traiting in the desired line. So add + 180 condi damage in fire, +180 healing power in water. Air and earth already have +180 precision and toughness. Not by default for air, so just remove +25% speed it's useless anyway.

    Giving it as baseline would be too much and too blank. I much prefer those stats bonuses to go as minor traits (as fire and earth are). And also they should be only on the specific attunement, but more powerful than currently:
    - Fire: increased power and condition damage;
    - Air: increased precision and ferocity;
    - Water: regen and increased healing power;
    - Earth: increased toughness and expertise;
    Vitality has the issue to reduce your hp when attuning out of an element, what can instant kill you, so it's not a good option.

    Then, it would be great for the trait "lingering elements" to come back. It was a trait that extended the attunement bonuses for 5 sec. So traiting arcane, you could quickly leave an attunement, without loosing its benefits for long. If that trait was extended to work with all attunement bonuses (higher dmg in fire, higher ferocity in air, etc) it could make great synergy.

    Furthermore, improving attributes in each elemental traitline can open the possibility of a elite spec that shares the element bonuses with its group (monk?) giving the opportunity of unique buff to the ele. And while a single ele will only able to share maximum one element bonus at a time, an arcane ele, taking lingering elements, would be able to share a single element bonus for longer while it swaps attunements... Lots of interesting possibilities.

    I've proposed some similar things on here: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/59263/elementalist-traitlines-for-the-current-state-of-the-game

    I also like your suggestion and i'd be glad to see it implemented , the only thing that still bothers me is that you'd still need to trait for those bonuses. Ele needs a mechanic that works without taking any line. Sure we would still have attunement swap and access to more weapon skills, but you are still handicaped by the fact that we start with fewer stats, and that our traits, skills, and synergies are all hybrid by nature. That's why cele meta was so effective.

    Ele is like a racing car without fuel that you need to pedal to make it move. Power dps staff has fuel, but no brakes/airbags/body, any crash is lethal, sustain builds have all security features, but won't start if you don't push them and they won't go faster than 30km/h.

  • lLobo.7960lLobo.7960 Member ✭✭✭

    @MyPuppy.8970 said:

    @lLobo.7960 said:

    @MyPuppy.8970 said:
    Solution :
    Make these points baseline :

    • increased attack power and condi damage when in fire.
    • increased vitality and healing power when in water.
    • increased precision and ferocity when in air
    • increased vitality and toughness when in earth.
      Numbers would be maybe +120 per stat, not lingering when you switch attunement. That alone would give purpose to having attunements besides more weapon skills that you need to combo to get anything out of them. Of course you could further improve those stats by traiting in the desired line. So add + 180 condi damage in fire, +180 healing power in water. Air and earth already have +180 precision and toughness. Not by default for air, so just remove +25% speed it's useless anyway.

    Giving it as baseline would be too much and too blank. I much prefer those stats bonuses to go as minor traits (as fire and earth are). And also they should be only on the specific attunement, but more powerful than currently:
    - Fire: increased power and condition damage;
    - Air: increased precision and ferocity;
    - Water: regen and increased healing power;
    - Earth: increased toughness and expertise;
    Vitality has the issue to reduce your hp when attuning out of an element, what can instant kill you, so it's not a good option.

    Then, it would be great for the trait "lingering elements" to come back. It was a trait that extended the attunement bonuses for 5 sec. So traiting arcane, you could quickly leave an attunement, without loosing its benefits for long. If that trait was extended to work with all attunement bonuses (higher dmg in fire, higher ferocity in air, etc) it could make great synergy.

    Furthermore, improving attributes in each elemental traitline can open the possibility of a elite spec that shares the element bonuses with its group (monk?) giving the opportunity of unique buff to the ele. And while a single ele will only able to share maximum one element bonus at a time, an arcane ele, taking lingering elements, would be able to share a single element bonus for longer while it swaps attunements... Lots of interesting possibilities.

    I've proposed some similar things on here: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/59263/elementalist-traitlines-for-the-current-state-of-the-game

    I also like your suggestion and i'd be glad to see it implemented , the only thing that still bothers me is that you'd still need to trait for those bonuses. Ele needs a mechanic that works without taking any line. Sure we would still have attunement swap and access to more weapon skills, but you are still handicaped by the fact that we start with fewer stats, and that our traits, skills, and synergies are all hybrid by nature. That's why cele meta was so effective.

    But that is (or should be) the flavor of ele.
    The stat deficiency makes it that you can achieve higher results if specializing, or lower results but in every direction if spreading it all (the cele way).
    A full zerker, Air/Arcane ele should have crazy burst potential, but be super fragile, a griever Fire/Air ele should have super high dmg but depend on teamates to boost it up, a minstrel water/earth ele should be super sturdy but hardly harm or chase anyone...

    Ele, with the attunement mechanics and traits can specialize heavily in one (or 3) elemental aspect (fire: sustained dmg, air:burst dmg, earth: defense, water: healing/cleanse). Removing this capacity of specialization will not make the class better.

  • MyPuppy.8970MyPuppy.8970 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @lLobo.7960 said:

    @MyPuppy.8970 said:

    @lLobo.7960 said:

    @MyPuppy.8970 said:
    Solution :
    Make these points baseline :

    • increased attack power and condi damage when in fire.
    • increased vitality and healing power when in water.
    • increased precision and ferocity when in air
    • increased vitality and toughness when in earth.
      Numbers would be maybe +120 per stat, not lingering when you switch attunement. That alone would give purpose to having attunements besides more weapon skills that you need to combo to get anything out of them. Of course you could further improve those stats by traiting in the desired line. So add + 180 condi damage in fire, +180 healing power in water. Air and earth already have +180 precision and toughness. Not by default for air, so just remove +25% speed it's useless anyway.

    Giving it as baseline would be too much and too blank. I much prefer those stats bonuses to go as minor traits (as fire and earth are). And also they should be only on the specific attunement, but more powerful than currently:
    - Fire: increased power and condition damage;
    - Air: increased precision and ferocity;
    - Water: regen and increased healing power;
    - Earth: increased toughness and expertise;
    Vitality has the issue to reduce your hp when attuning out of an element, what can instant kill you, so it's not a good option.

    Then, it would be great for the trait "lingering elements" to come back. It was a trait that extended the attunement bonuses for 5 sec. So traiting arcane, you could quickly leave an attunement, without loosing its benefits for long. If that trait was extended to work with all attunement bonuses (higher dmg in fire, higher ferocity in air, etc) it could make great synergy.

    Furthermore, improving attributes in each elemental traitline can open the possibility of a elite spec that shares the element bonuses with its group (monk?) giving the opportunity of unique buff to the ele. And while a single ele will only able to share maximum one element bonus at a time, an arcane ele, taking lingering elements, would be able to share a single element bonus for longer while it swaps attunements... Lots of interesting possibilities.

    I've proposed some similar things on here: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/59263/elementalist-traitlines-for-the-current-state-of-the-game

    I also like your suggestion and i'd be glad to see it implemented , the only thing that still bothers me is that you'd still need to trait for those bonuses. Ele needs a mechanic that works without taking any line. Sure we would still have attunement swap and access to more weapon skills, but you are still handicaped by the fact that we start with fewer stats, and that our traits, skills, and synergies are all hybrid by nature. That's why cele meta was so effective.

    But that is (or should be) the flavor of ele.
    The stat deficiency makes it that you can achieve higher results if specializing, or lower results but in every direction if spreading it all (the cele way).
    A full zerker, Air/Arcane ele should have crazy burst potential, but be super fragile, a griever Fire/Air ele should have super high dmg but depend on teamates to boost it up, a minstrel water/earth ele should be super sturdy but hardly harm or chase anyone...

    Ele, with the attunement mechanics and traits can specialize heavily in one (or 3) elemental aspect (fire: sustained dmg, air:burst dmg, earth: defense, water: healing/cleanse). Removing this capacity of specialization will not make the class better.

    Not saying ele shouldn't be able to highly specialize, it can already (viability/efficiency is a different matter though) just that attunement should bring something by default, even minor, like a self elemental attunement with shorter boon duration.

  • @steki.1478 said:
    Class that's supposed to overcome its defense/cooldown weaknesses by dealing high damage unironically has the worst damage while still having the biggest cooldowns and the worst sustain. Mind = blown.

    So well-said ! I assume ele was nerf to the ground because he was able to deal massive damage, more than anyone else. His weakness, beeing squishy, was not a problem with proper team (in raid and fractacls at least).
    What ANet saw ? A profession with big damage and no apparent drawback. They didn't get the full picture as always. What about ele fighting alone in PvE, WvW, or PvP ?

    I am still leveling new eles (as well as other toons because I like the leveling phase), and I can tell the difference. Damage wise, I have no issue, it's very good. Although I could argue that my axe warrior do comparable damage in a slightly less AoE, but more stable damage.
    Then, my ele has to use almost everything he got even to survive some strong veterans that my warrior can kill by standing still doing nothing but spamming attacks.
    The former might reach very low health and even been downed while the latter should probably loose less than half health in the worst case. Granted warrior might have some passive defense, you can still build without those passives and still do well.

    Yesterday, I saw a veteran in brisban with 2 mobs around. I rushed in, not fully prepared but it was only a veteran. Guess what ? He was hitting hard and I was downed in no time, just lucky to be able to rally and flee away. Then, I try again with proper preparation and I killed him rather easily.
    So yes , I do manage most situations, but it requires a lot more work for a lesser result than most other professions. A lesser result because I usually have more down time between fights when I need my cooldowns/health to be ready. My guardian has no need for these cooldowns except for champions.

  • MyPuppy.8970MyPuppy.8970 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Reason is simple : it was to give more room for other specs to shine. Because Bad AI/mechanics allows full dps builds/parties to be the meta, and people always want to go the fastest way. All that to not lose the playerbase that don't main or don't want to play ele.

    Solution is simple : a full trait/skill/utilities/modifiers Split between all game modes

  • shinta.8906shinta.8906 Member ✭✭✭

    low hp pool + huge casttimes + (by now) bad heals

    hmmm

    HMMM

  • steki.1478steki.1478 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Ele is already balanced in the way that 1 skill has only one role compared to other classes which have multiple uses per skill. Reason? Ele has 20 weapon skills, other classes have 10. What's not balanced is that ele still has a lot higher cooldowns AND cast times on those skills.

    There's balance in regard that aoe healing has to be lower than self sustain that other classes have, but why is every single healing weapon skill and water trait aoe?

    Considering that all base damage and heal values are awful and ele heavily relies on both specializations and gear stats to be considered playable, there needs to be some changes when it comes to traits:

    1) Nerf/removal of modifier traits with buffs on base values. This way ele doesnt need to rely on 50% damage bonus from fire and air, and builds who dont use those specs won't hit like a wet noodle.
    2) Addition of offensive traits/weapon skills in defensive elements and defensive traits/skills in offensive elements so eles can have at least some breathing room without having to completely respec to get just a bit of offense or a bit of defense. Smothering auras is a perfect example of this.
    3) More global traits (traits that dont work only in specific attunements, but all the time; they can just work better in said attunement) and less relying on ICD, RNG and attunement (at once!!!). Why is this mess of a trait- arcane precision in game?

    A perfect solution would be a mix of all 3, but even one of those could improve the class a lot for start.

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