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Elitism - Mass Discussion Thread


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@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:You guys are going way too deep morally, Lincoln/Douglas debate style here. No one is arguing with the moral side of things you're stating. I'm simply referencing that it only takes 3 people to vote kick some guy who joins on a Core Guardian, who does not have the option to play DH. So before judging him based on elite raid discrimination, just give the guy a chance to be effective before kicking.

This does happen often to players who don't own w/e expansion it is that they need to run a meta, and this is a large part of why you don't see many people in T4s running core builds. They catch so much grief for it that it drives them away from the game mode, regardless of their performance. <- This is called discrimination. These people are making due with what they have access to, or sometimes it's just a bored "Fractal God" who wanted to run something different, who probably can out DPS everyone else in the party and solo things like Arkk, with an off meta build.

Before you respond again, with morals and anecdotal facts, know that I am not searching for responses and regurgitated statements. I am simply pointing out, that T4 fractals are not hard and the difference between Having a power burst DH or a Grieving Core Guardian in your team is maybe 2 to 3 minutes tops, at the end of your run.

Before you respond again, about "playing how you like or doing what you want" remember that I am not talking about kicking players who truly are poor players or who have terrible setups or who just aren't on the right class "say you wanted a Chrono, not a Berserker Warrior". No one is questioning these kind of kicks. I am talking about flat out discrimination based on preconceived elitist attitudes that a player is immediately bad or ineffective because he is not running what a meta site has listed.

~ Players should stop defending discriminatory party kicking as it is an ignorant practice that further limits build diversity in easy game modes.

2 guild friends and me often run a 4 condi scourges+1 druid (the latter one being one of the 2 friends of mine) for t4 dailies, so we look for 2 more condi scourges in lfg description. Is it the best comp for T4? No, it's not but it's how we want to do them.We like this composition and we don't want any change to that, even if it would outperform our comp and whenever someone who doesn't read lfg description join us saying "I don't have scourge, can I come X?" or "I am crono/war/weaver dps/condi class different from scourge/etc, it's better than scourge", we insta-kick him/her.The point of this story is: we have all rights to have the class we want in our party and we have all rights to kick every people who don't respect that!

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  • 3 months later...

So the elitism is at an all time high in CMs + T4s + Recs.

Lately there is an increase in the absolute demand of: Druid / Chrono / BS. Man I get it, I do. It is rather annoying though, for those of us who only have one +9AR/5stat character geared for fractals ><. If that one character is something like a Power DH "like my situation", it's becoming harder to find groups and get CM/T4/Recs done quickly.

The real issue here for me is how gated it is to have "several" characters geared for CMs to be able to get quick play in these groups. If I could, I would gear Druid/Chrono/BS and keep my Power DH. This way I could play in any group that had a slot open. However, +9/5 is so expensive that not only is this a huge gate in itself, but it's something that I really do not want to invest in because of how expensive it is. Having even a mixture of +7/5 and +9/5 is almost as much gold sink as a legendary.

Many people would say "Bro just use normal agony infusions." But I completely disagree. +9/5 gearing is pretty important so that your character has enough AR and so that it doesn't suck in raids. Some may say "Bro use two different setups. One with wvw infusions for raids, and another for +9 normal infusions." But this is silly, considering how much two different ascended outfits costs and the inventory space used. Couldn't we just use infusion extractors to keep swapping wvw stat infusions with +agony? Well we could, but not only is that extraordinarily annoying to have to do, but over time it would be an enormous gold sink.

Many people would also say that "Gating is important," which I agree with initially, when we're talking a person who is learning on some character for the first time. But when a player has played a character to nightly CM/T4/Rec activity, who maybe has even achieved Fractal God, how much wealth gating is important or acceptable when preventing him from being able to class swap to fit different roles? It's a good question.

I feel like the titles and all associated unlocks should be granting more account bound agony resistance. I also feel that maybe Arenanet should up the drop rates of Stabilizing Matrix on salvage, and reduce the cost of Integrated Fractal Matrix while making infusions.

Whatever happens, I'd like to be able to gear multiple characters for fractals, while still having them perform optimally in raids, at a significantly reduced price that is realistic to take on with a single account.

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@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:The real issue here for me is how gated it is to have "several" characters geared for CMs to be able to get quick play in these groups. If I could, I would gear Druid/Chrono/BS and keep my Power DH. This way I could play in any group that had a slot open. However, +9/5 is so expensive that not only is this a huge gate in itself, but it's something that I really do not want to invest in because of how expensive it is. Having even a mixture of +7/5 and +9/5 is almost as much gold sink as a legendary.

Many people would say "Bro just use normal agony infusions." But I completely disagree. +9/5 gearing is pretty important so that your character has enough AR and so that it doesn't suck in raids.

No, it's not +5 stats are irrelevant to 99% of the raiders, maybe even more. Unless you are not speed running in a serious speed running that holds several records +5 are negligible. Even in those guilds I'm not 100% sure that every player has +9/5 on every char; it's rather unlikely. And, as you could have seen in the latest raid tournament the best geared char doesn't mean anything if you can't execute the mechanics properly. Never forget: We are talking about the top of the hill not about the huge majority of raiders and extended: fractal players (means: not every fractal player is raiding).Furthermore, my condi bannerslave is the only char I have optimized completely and people still take my power dh without +5s and I am and was on par with other dps players (although I'm not grinding for max dps). Not talking about broken fractal weaver (from the past). Not to speak about raids where I sometimes use dps chars with only asc armor and I regularly outdps pugs with them, again: I'm not a dps player per se, I main druid & bannerslave.

A single +9 infusion is at around 8g. A normal t4 + recs theoretically allows to buy at least 2 of them (easy 16g + almost a stack of infusion per daily run). If we generously talking about 18 slots that's 9 days to gear a new char for running fractals. I repeat: You don't need +5s at all, that's bs. 9 days is very easy to achieve and I didn't even include CMs. In extension that means 3 times the cost since you can buy one +9/5s for 3 +9s + stabilizing matrices. So, one month to completely min/max gear one char is too much? I call heavy bs here.

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@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:Many people would say "Bro just use normal agony infusions." But I completely disagree. +9/5 gearing is pretty important so that your character has enough AR and so that it doesn't suck in raids.

I've never used +9/5 infusions on any of my characters that I Raid with. Out of all the people that I know and raid, or raided in the past with, nobody uses them either. If you need those infusions to reach high dps numbers then you probably need to practice your rotations some more.

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The reason that many fractal parties now search for chrono is that not enough chronos do fractals with pugs.

I used to do fractals with chrono until the signet change. Now you cannot reliably keep up 100% uptimes. You can prestack using singularity so your boons start to fall later. Now my uptimes depends on dps of other players and there is enourmous diference between t4 players. That is why I dont take any chances and do fractals only with players I know.

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The problem with GW2 is you really notice the impacts of casual people as an experienced player in a way that with WoW or FFXIV it's far less noticeable because the content is nerfed through gearing (and even with less geared casuals being trivially carried by more geared people).

I go into regular T4's and the people you get can mean your T4's can take significantly longer than a daily CM100/99+T4's from an experienced group.

In regular T4's I was a weaver doing 12-14k and the rest of the DPS were barely breaking 6k DPS, there was a deadeye camping pistol/pistol and the chrono was just ranging with staff. When time came to do the Urban fractal it was a totally painful experience as you had only 2 people run into melee, get creamed by the horde of Ascalonian warriors while the thief and mesmer were ranging next to the statue. Wipe after wipe after wipe due to poor DPS.

Poor DPS in this game is massively noticeable because the mobs are such a vastly bigger threat and the lack of traditional healing systems like in WoW means that groups with poor DPS can seldom outlast the high damage spikes of mobs.

So you have a total fracturing of the community because the difference between good and bad is so large and unlike FFXIV/WoW, GW2's DPS performance is so unintuitive and hard to measure/analyze alongside several other obstacles to it.

In GW2 for some stupid reason autoattack chains are interrupted by skill usage, which means autoattack counting is vital as interrupting the autoattack chain with a skill in between means resetting the chain. Since there are no add on's to track the chain step you are at, and the game is a neon board mess of visual effects often obscuring your own animations, you have little choice but to stare at your action bar and meorize which icon is the 2nd-3rd part of the chain to make sure you don't cut it off. Which then takes your eyes off the rest of the surroundings.

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@Zenith.7301 said:

In GW2 for some stupid reason autoattack chains are interrupted by skill usage, which means autoattack counting is vital as interrupting the autoattack chain with a skill in between means resetting the chain. Since there are no add on's to track the chain step you are at, and the game is a neon board mess of visual effects...

I always wondered why the auto attack chains don't have a number on them (1, 2, 3) tbh. There are a few exceptions and muscle memory, of course, (Necro Scepter and DH Greatsword are burned into my mind but also easy enough to notice) but playing another class or build is really annoying initially for that reason. ChainSkill 2 of most chains is visible for such a short timeframe or so unimportant as an individual attack, besides being a copy of ChainSkill 1 in most cases.

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@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:So the elitism is at an all time high in CMs + T4s + Recs.

Where else would you expect to find it though? Are you suggesting that elitism can somehow be eliminated? Because it can't, it's part of the human condition.

Look at any organization, be it business, politics, academia, and you will always find people who look down their nose at others, and set subjective barriers to entry into their world. /shrug

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@Vinceman.4572 said:

@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:The real issue here for me is how gated it is to have "several" characters geared for CMs to be able to get quick play in these groups. If I could, I would gear Druid/Chrono/BS and keep my Power DH. This way I could play in any group that had a slot open. However, +9/5 is so expensive that not only is this a huge gate in itself, but it's something that I really do not want to invest in because of how expensive it is. Having even a mixture of +7/5 and +9/5 is almost as much gold sink as a legendary.

Many people would say "Bro just use normal agony infusions." But I completely disagree. +9/5 gearing is pretty important so that your character has enough AR and so that it doesn't suck in raids.

No, it's not +5 stats are irrelevant to 99% of the raiders, maybe even more. Unless you are not speed running in a serious speed running that holds several records +5 are negligible. Even in those guilds I'm not 100% sure that every player has +9/5 on every char; it's rather unlikely. And, as you could have seen in the latest raid tournament the best geared char doesn't mean anything if you can't execute the mechanics properly. Never forget: We are talking about the top of the hill not about the huge majority of raiders and extended: fractal players (means: not every fractal player is raiding).Furthermore, my condi bannerslave is the only char I have optimized completely and people still take my power dh without +5s and I am and was on par with other dps players (although I'm not grinding for max dps). Not talking about broken fractal weaver (from the past). Not to speak about raids where I sometimes use dps chars with only asc armor and I regularly outdps pugs with them, again: I'm not a dps player per se, I main druid & bannerslave.

A single +9 infusion is at around 8g. A normal t4 + recs theoretically allows to buy at least 2 of them (easy 16g + almost a stack of infusion per daily run). If we generously talking about 18 slots that's 9 days to gear a new char for running fractals. I repeat: You don't need +5s at all, that's bs. 9 days is very easy to achieve and I didn't even include CMs. In extension that means 3 times the cost since you can buy one +9/5s for 3 +9s + stabilizing matrices. So, one month to completely min/max gear one char is too much? I call heavy bs here.

Sure, if the only thing you do is play fractals and you never use your gold for anything else other than gearing characters to play fractals so that you can gear other characters to play fractals.

And I don't know what raiding group you're with, but saying that +90 stat off infusions doesn't matter is like saying food buffs don't matter.

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@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:The real issue here for me is how gated it is to have "several" characters geared for CMs to be able to get quick play in these groups. If I could, I would gear Druid/Chrono/BS and keep my Power DH. This way I could play in any group that had a slot open. However, +9/5 is so expensive that not only is this a huge gate in itself, but it's something that I really do not want to invest in because of how expensive it is. Having even a mixture of +7/5 and +9/5 is almost as much gold sink as a legendary.

Many people would say "Bro just use normal agony infusions." But I completely disagree. +9/5 gearing is pretty important so that your character has enough AR and so that it doesn't suck in raids.

No, it's not +5 stats are irrelevant to 99% of the raiders, maybe even more. Unless you are not speed running in a serious speed running that holds several records +5 are negligible. Even in those guilds I'm not 100% sure that every player has +9/5 on every char; it's rather unlikely. And, as you could have seen in the latest raid tournament the best geared char doesn't mean anything if you can't execute the mechanics properly. Never forget: We are talking about the top of the hill not about the huge majority of raiders and extended: fractal players (means: not every fractal player is raiding).Furthermore, my condi bannerslave is the only char I have optimized completely and people still take my power dh without +5s and I am and was on par with other dps players (although I'm not grinding for max dps). Not talking about broken fractal weaver (from the past). Not to speak about raids where I sometimes use dps chars with only asc armor and I regularly outdps pugs with them, again: I'm not a dps player per se, I main druid & bannerslave.

A single +9 infusion is at around 8g. A normal t4 + recs theoretically allows to buy at least 2 of them (easy 16g + almost a stack of infusion per daily run). If we generously talking about 18 slots that's 9 days to gear a new char for running fractals. I repeat: You don't need +5s at all, that's bs. 9 days is very easy to achieve and I didn't even include CMs. In extension that means 3 times the cost since you can buy one +9/5s for 3 +9s + stabilizing matrices. So, one month to completely min/max gear one char is too much? I call heavy bs here.

Sure, if the only thing you do is play fractals and you never use your gold for anything else other than gearing characters to play fractals so that you can gear other characters to play fractals.

And I don't know what raiding group you're with, but saying that +90 stat off infusions doesn't matter is like saying food buffs don't matter.

About to hit 850 LI.

+5/9 Stat infusions are absolutely unimportant unless you are suffering a severe OCD. They are neither required in raids, nor in fractals.

If you really think you need these to be able to perform, you are either on a God level of skill where every little % matters. Or you are obsessing over something idiotic.

The difference of 90 Stat points in total is less significant then 1-2 tries of practice on the training golem.

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@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:lol I love you guys, coming in here as if no one out there is using +5 stat infusions on raid characters.

Funny stuff, very funny stuff.

The actual funny stuff here is that you complain about elitism while laughing at people who say stat infusions are irrelevant most of the time (most players don't use them, really). Which is actually elitism.

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@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:lol I love you guys, coming in here as if no one out there is using +5 stat infusions on raid characters.

Funny stuff, very funny stuff.

i have about 14 raid ready characters, 4 of them are full infused. yet im also perfectly capable of doing full runs with the other ones. in fact i have been kicked 0 times, and not one complaint of my lack of dps so far. hell i don´t even run BIS food and utility the whole time. while i am a hugh fantasy fan, you should rather try to stay in reality.

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@sigur.9453 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:lol I love you guys, coming in here as if no one out there is using +5 stat infusions on raid characters.

Funny stuff, very funny stuff.

i have about 14 raid ready characters, 4 of them are full infused. yet im also perfectly capable of doing full runs with the other ones. in fact i have been kicked 0 times, and not one complaint of my lack of dps so far. hell i don´t even run BIS food and utility the whole time. while i am a hugh fantasy fan, you should rather try to stay in reality.

This.

I raid on 5 characters (as in I play in raids), have currently 8.8k Magnetite shards, over 3k gold, 12 sets of full ascended armor on characters, 3 sets in form of fractal and raid boss boxes on the bank, so it's not even a gold issue for me.

The assumption that +5/9 infusion are required or are limiting people of performing or clearing content is simply false. They are used by about 1% of the raiding community and player base. The cost-benefit ratio is just that bad.

Can you use them? Sure go for it. Does not having them on every single character impair you in any way of clearing fractals or raids? No.

TD;DR: there is a difference between voluntary spending 3k gold on a very minor stat improvement and assuming this stat improvement is required. +5/9 are absolutely 100% voluntary.

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I'm not even sure if Trevor agrees with me, but I've got a feeling his post primarily has nothing to do with the +5/9 infusions thing. But has everything to do that you are STILL pretty much required to play certain professions when pugging fractal CM's. And if you have one character that is perfectly geared (read: with +5/9) and happens to be your favourite character, but is also just not considered one of the elite professions, you're left with 3 options:

  1. Re-gear to a profession that is desired (i.e. an all-time elite profession: Mesmer, Ranger (since Druid), Warrior, Ele), which costs a lot even if you already have that (perfect) gear, but on a different character (profession). Imo, ANet could make this a lot easier for us when they finally provide us with a good template design!
  2. Use less than perfect gear (maybe even not ascended) and still choose to play one of those elite professions, while leaving your own preferred profession (your main) on the shelf ... Imo, ANet could fix that, by focussing a bit more on PvE endgame balancing instead of almost only on PvP and WvW (it's ridiculous how strong some professions are in the PvE endgame pretty much since launch already)
  3. Don't pug when you want to do fractal CM's. although a favourite answer for all those Mesmer/Ranger/Warrior/Ele mains out there, it's imo also the one real toxic/elite answer that you can give, and it's not going to change anything to this this very long-sitting unhealthy META in the PvE endgame, which is not even blacklisting whole professions in the game, but also the players behind them who happen to like these professions the most (calling them their mains): see point 1 for that!
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@"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said:I'm not even sure if Trevor agrees with me, but I've got a feeling his post primarily has nothing to do with the +5/9 infusions thing. But has everything to do that you are STILL pretty much required to play certain professions when pugging fractal CM's. And if you have one character that is perfectly geared (read: with +5/9) and happens to be your favourite character, but is also just not considered one of the elite professions.

So only Condi specs, because Power focussed builds are more powerful in fractals due to lower HP pools of enemies compared to raids and because Power and Condition builds cannibalize each other.

  1. Re-gear to a profession that is desired (i.e. an all-time elite profession: Mesmer, Ranger (since Druid), Warrior, Ele), which costs a lot even if you already have that (perfect) gear, but on a different character (profession). Imo, ANet could make this a lot easier for us when they finally provide us with a good template design!

If you want to be a Purist, sure. Then you'll have Chrono, Warr/SPB, Soulbeast, Dragonhunter and Weaver. But I only ever see one or two lfgs specifically asking for certain DPS specs (DPS, mind you!) and I pug fractals every day. As long as the Warr does at least double my own damage (Chrono) and the two DPS are ahead of the Warr it's smooth sailing. Furthermore, every single class (even Necromancer) has a workable Power Spec for fractals now but some require more effort than others to perform well so that's on the individual player.I have seen Reaper pulling more DPS than the flavour of the month Weaver through sheer skill alone but also had thieves insisting on playing Deadeye in fights where the class is underperforming by design. I quote CyNinja here because it boils down to "make. your. own. LFG.".And regarding the last part: If you want to do CMs+T4 you are required to have 150 AR anyway which translates to having Ascended gear... which is account bound and - at least for Power DPS - is the same accross all classes and builds.

  1. Use less than perfect gear (maybe even not ascended) and still choose to play one of those elite professions, while leaving your own preferred profession (your main) on the shelf ... Imo, ANet could fix that, by focussing a bit more on PvE endgame balancing instead of almost only on PvP and WvW (it's ridiculous how strong some professions are in the PvE endgame pretty much since launch already)

How do you even plan to do fractal CMs + T4 without Ascended gear? Tear of Alba only provides 15 AR so at worst you would need 130 AR (15 from tear, 5 from singularity) and never use up your singularity.

  1. Don't pug when you want to do fractal CM's. although a favourite answer for all those Mesmer/Ranger/Warrior/Ele mains out there, it's imo also the one real toxic/elite answer that you can give, and it's not going to change anything to this this very long-sitting unhealthy META in the PvE endgame, which is not even blacklisting whole professions in the game, but also the players behind them who happen to like these professions the most (calling them their mains): see point 1 for that!

You do realize that you spend around 15 minutes per Fractal CM (Chrono, Warr, Healer, 2 DPS), adding T4 to that adds another 10-30 minutes, depending on fractals so we talk about around 1 hour for five fractals. Recs add another 10-20 minutes on top of that and that is with a well rounded Power dps focused team. Remove the Healer for another DPS and you might be able to shave 20 minutes off.Again, do you realize that following the META approach will still take between 1 - 1,5 hours for content many of those players have done for years. Why would they ever want to speed through it, GEEZ, I sure love Torin and Kay bullshitting about their past in the thieves guild for the 150th time!

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@Grogba.6204 said:

@"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said:
  1. Use less than perfect gear (maybe even not ascended) and still choose to play one of those elite professions, while leaving your own preferred profession (your main) on the shelf ...
    Imo, ANet could fix that, by focussing a bit more on PvE endgame balancing instead of almost only on PvP and WvW (it's ridiculous how strong some professions are in the PvE endgame pretty much since launch already)

How do you even plan to do fractal CMs + T4 without Ascended gear? Tear of Alba only provides 15 AR so at worst you would need 130 AR (15 from tear, 5 from singularity) and never use up your singularity.

And this is exactly what I mean with not focussing on the real issue at hand. Arguing over a small detail between brackets, which I indeed mistyped. My apologies. It should've been: (maybe even not all ascended). (Say exotic weapons, or even armor (pieces), you can still do CM's and won't even be shamed beforehand, just because you rolled the desired class.)

The real issue imo is this whole class elitism META that we're in. And you know the weird thing is that I don't even care that much about elitism being a thing ... I kinda even believe it's human nature (as somebody else already commented in this thread), but that it's on such a core/base element of the game (almost comparable to IRL racism): is repulsive. And imo it's so dire these days, and so heavily locked into a real niche for such a long time now (at least for the PvE endgame), that the only way out is via ArenaNet!And again the options they have are imo simple:

  1. They either change the way classes are such a core/base element in the game: i.e. make it really easy to switch to any character/profession in the game with all the stats/etc. that you've unlocked previously (again with the help of a good template and unlocking design)
  2. Or they really focus on PvE endgame balancing, making all professions desirable in endgame content: in other words META, or even better: optimal. Hint: start by optimizing the ones that haven't been META/optimal for so long now! (just a hint of course)
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May I remind you that for the longest time only Chrono, Berserker and Tempest were even desired and that nowadays every class has at least one competitive DPS build, including Ranger, Engineer, Necromancer, Mesmer and Thief? Things are moving forward. Slab Berserker stats on it and get used to your damage rotation and you are good to go. The only real offenders are Warrior and Mesmer by virtue of being very powerful and unique stat bombs and having extremely effective skills. (Winds of Disenchantment/All Banners/Mace Skills/Certain Shouts for Warrior, Timewarp/Moa/Gravity Well/Temporal Curtain/Portal/Mimic/Continuum Split/Sigil if Inspiration for Chrono).

Also note how the majority of the things that make Warrior and Mesmer powerful come from the core class, rather than the elite spec(s).

If you want Alacrity and Quickness you either need a Chrono or a combination of Firebrand and Renegade, the latter option is just as valid but more complicated to build and build around when making a group. Nevermind the Chaos traitline which only really help Deadeyes, Elementalists with Arcane and Warriors.

And before I forget: Comparing GW2 classes (Which are increasingly easier to level the longer you play thanks to an abundance of tomes) to real life problems like racism is - honestly - mind-boggling and wrong on so many levels.

  1. Or they really focus on PvE endgame balancing, making all professions desirable in endgame content: in other words META, or even better: optimal. Hint: start by optimizing the ones that haven't been META/optimal for so long now! (just a hint of course)

Edit: You will always have one class perform better than another, it is impossible to balance a game with multiple classes without making them all identical. May I also ask which class you are referring to when talking about said class being undesirable? Because the last time I checked all powerbuilds work in fractals and the 4Scourges1Druid remains another popular option for fractals. Nevermind raids, where Necros are still among the top classes both for damage and support nowadays.

Again - and as always - it boils down to: What works within the game's parameters =/= what the average player considers optimal

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So, people discovered a round shaped (later called "a wheel") piece of wood works wonders to haul stuff.Then, they discovered at least 3 work even better. You get 4? You are in business.From then on, people expected 4 wheels on their wagons, seeing that is very efficient.Later on, someone discovered that having a roof on top of that wagon is a really nice addition to their wagon, protecting them from rain and snow. Keeping them warm and dry.From then on, people expected to have a roof over their heads on their wagons. Comfort is a nice to have bonus.Daredevils were still enjoying their convertibles, because they loved to feel the wind gusting over their faces while racing to the bottom of the hill.And everyone was happy.Then, an inventor came along and he was not very happy about having 4 wheel on his wagon. Down right mad about the idea of a roof.Started calling everyone elitists.The story goes that he is still trying to get to the new world of west indies in a canoe, without any paddles. He argued: "Our ancestors did the same!"

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@"Grogba.6204" said:May I remind you that for the longest time only Chrono, Berserker and Tempest were even desiredWow, a lot has changed there! Btw, I always advocate to start looking at whole classes/professions first, ANet still has a lot of balancing to do there, and then they can look at balancing every single specialization (which will be far more complex).

and that nowadays every class has at least one competitive DPS build, including Ranger, Engineer, Necromancer, Mesmer and Thief? Things are moving forward.It's always funny how these arguments comes in well-put stories, but never really backed up with real numbers. And if they do come with real numbers, it's almost always anecdotal!There are sites out there that proof the difference though! Or do you find differences up to 20% competitive?

Again - and as always - it boils down to: What works within the game's parameters =/= what the average player considers optimalI'm not sure if I get you right here (I really don't, it's not an attack or anything)? Do you consider the makers of above mentioned sites (which are main influencers to the masses) average players? I think they do a hell of a job benchmarking, statistically proof, min-maxing countless builds to inform that so called average player! You can almost call them experts in the field. So I'd rather listen to these people, that clearly show, backed up by numbers (not anecdotal stories), that some professions are underwhelming to say the least (and have been for most of the time), than to listen to random stories on these forums! And I know there are quite a few people out there that have a bond (be it because they're locked/geared into it or for whatever other reason) with a certain profession, and I can only understand that they all want to be optimal for once, and not just a viable option!

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@"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said:Wow, a lot has changed there! Btw, I always advocate to start looking at whole classes/professions first, ANet still has a lot of balancing to do there, and then they can look at balancing every single specialization (which will be far more complex)

Sarcasm? As I already said Warrior and Chrono are the odd ones and hard to balance without breaking either the classes or the game. Every other class has improved tremendously since then. Teapot carried squads with his Supportscourge which is hardly useful for speedclearing guilds but still received an entry on SC's website. Maybe pugs should stop immitating what they cannot replicate? Deimos Melee strat is a great example as is one rift-KC or midtanking VG. Again, did you experience the early months of HoT (even before DPS meters were a thing) and tried grouping up with a DPS that wasn't Tempest?

There are sites out there that proof the difference though! Or do you find differences up to 20% competitive?

Before you start linking golem benchmarks and raidar you might want to check them again. Golem Benchmarks demonstrate what is possible in a vacuum and unrealistic conditions. Yes, realistic buffs are used but you won't have all buffs up from the very beginning of a fight nor is the golem fight interrupted by boss mechanics. Raidar even states that the statistics combine multiple encounters and look and behold, Conjured Amalgamate for example already heavily skews power benchmarks. Compared to Matthias where powerbuilds barely outperform the "weakest" condi options.

Again - and as always - it boils down to: What works within the game's parameters =/= what the average player considers optimal

I'm not sure if I get you right here (I really don't, it's not an attack or anything)? Do you consider the makers of above mentioned sites (which are main influencers to the masses) average players? I think they do a hell of a job benchmarking, statistically proof, min-maxing countless builds to inform that so called
average
player! You can almost call them experts in the field. So I'd rather listen to these people, that clearly show, backed up by numbers (not anecdotal stories), that some professions are underwhelming to say the least (and have been for most of the time), than to listen to random stories on these forums!

The game allows you to reach 40k dps on golem with a perfect rotation (and various builds breaking 33k dps, even Reaper breaking 30k and slowly getting up there). What benchmarks cannot simulate is player skill, however. From years of experience I can guarantee you that the average player cannot play on that level and other builds would quite often be better suited than the top choices. Try killing Dhuum/Qadim with a pug full of Deadeyes, for example. If DPS averages to 20k over the span of CM bossfights (phases!) they are good and any class can reach that number.

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@Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:

@"Grogba.6204" said:May I remind you that for the longest time
only
Chrono, Berserker and Tempest were even desiredWow, a lot has changed there! Btw, I always advocate to start looking at whole classes/professions first, ANet still has a lot of balancing to do there, and then they can look at balancing every single specialization (which will be far more complex).

and that nowadays
every
class has at least one competitive DPS build, including Ranger, Engineer, Necromancer, Mesmer and Thief? Things
are
moving forward.It's always funny how these arguments comes in well-put stories, but never really backed up with real numbers. And if they do come with real numbers, it's almost always anecdotal!There are
out
that
the difference though! Or do you find differences up to 20% competitive?

Again - and as always - it boils down to: What works within the game's parameters =/= what the average player considers optimalI'm not sure if I get you right here (I really don't, it's not an attack or anything)? Do you consider the makers of above mentioned sites (which are main influencers to the masses) average players? I think they do a hell of a job benchmarking, statistically proof, min-maxing countless builds to inform that so called
average
player! You can almost call them experts in the field. So I'd rather listen to these people, that clearly show, backed up by numbers (not anecdotal stories), that some professions are underwhelming to say the least (and have been for most of the time), than to listen to random stories on these forums! And I know there are quite a few people out there that have a bond (be it because they're locked/geared into it or for whatever other reason) with a certain profession, and I can only understand that they
all
want to be optimal for once, and not just a viable option!

Your mistake is you are looking at a benchmark site instead of looking what is actually being played and/or required.

First off, the top and bottom dps are by far closer now than ever or in past balance cycles of raids. 20% is nothing compared to some class not being represented AT ALL in the past.

Second, every single fight can be completed easy with any of the benchmarked classes, even if their golem benchmark might be lower based on player skill, favorism of fights (power vs condi vs difficulty vs encounter design) and synergy benefits being lower with standard compositions.

If you want a realistic representation of what is being played, check a site which tracks raids and classes played like gw2raidar. Then realize that your assumptions are wrong and a lot of players actually play an incorrect class which is most often to difficult for their skill level (especially in PUG groups).

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