Marked debuff kills roaming

[zinkz.7045]

@"Straegen.2938" said:Heavies and most lights are utility or zerg focused. Mediums are built for scouting, roaming, etc. GW2 doesn't have a trinity system but they have gone out of their way to create a "job" system for classes.

Not really, the classes / combat were not designed around WvW, they were built around PvP (go find video of WvW "hero" Sacrx talking about alpha). Then for the first three years they were balanced nearly exclusively around PvP, then when they decided to add raids with HoT they also balanced around that, WvW gets nothing other than the odd crumb for large scale.

Which is why mesmer a light class has been one of the best two roamers the entire game, why warrior a heavy class has been better or has good for roaming than engy most of the game and so on, because there is minimal concern with WvW and virtually zero in regard to roaming.

The "balance" in WvW is largely just whatever shit sticks from the design and balance decisions they take in other game modes, with the odd band-aid thrown in for show.

[bq pd.2148]

@zinkz.7045 said:

@"Straegen.2938" said:Heavies and most lights are utility or zerg focused. Mediums are built for scouting, roaming, etc. GW2 doesn't have a trinity system but they have gone out of their way to create a "job" system for classes.

Not really, the classes / combat were not designed around WvW, they were built around PvP (go find video of WvW "hero" Sacrx talking about alpha). Then for the first three years they were balanced nearly exclusively around PvP, then when they decided to add raids with HoT they also balanced around that, WvW gets nothing other than the odd crumb for large scale.

Which is why mesmer a light class has been one of the best two roamers the entire game, why warrior a heavy class has been better or has good for roaming than engy most of the game and so on, because there is minimal concern with WvW and virtually zero in regard to roaming.

The "balance" in WvW is largely just whatever kitten sticks from the design and balance decisions they take in other game modes, with the odd band-aid thrown in for show.

while many players seem to think (solo)roaming a seperate mode, its just a role. not every profession need to be viable in it or even remotely to the same efficiency.the huge issue in WvW is that the teams are not of even numbers and then pretty random at that, i mean people already complain in spvp that they cant choose every member of their team in ranked. with such an inbalance anet cannot reward actually winning a match, wich means people will play different (inefficient), for example solo roamers of every profession, people that play only for 'the fights' or people that overly defend objectives when its no longer efficient to keep feeding the opponent with deaths. now that people got used to doing whatever they please for 6 years, they actually demand balance according to their own playstyle not for the roles within WvW. but whatever anet does they wont ever get a balance in any part of WvW as long as the population inbalance decides the matches, team sizes are for most of the week too big and the matches are simply too long to get balanced teams.i dont think that they dont care for WvW balance, its just that it is a very difficult thing to balance without completly changing the mode to something different.

[Spartacus.3192]

This marked thing only hurts stealth classes. I roam (solo or small group) as a guardian, spellbreaker and holo and this marked debuff hasn't hurt me in the slightest.

[sostronk.8167]

This is absolute BS. I am constantly chased by blobs across the map these days. 10-15 man groups. This was the case in the past, but I could roam on a thief to avoid having to 1v15. Now they almost always know where I am and where I am going and I can't utilize stealth. Changes are only good for unskilled blob groups.

[HazyDaisy.4107]

As a mesmer, I've actually been looking to trigger these traps so others don't have to worry about them. In the week+ they've been out, I've only found 2 so far, which isn't suprising because...most people don't even know seige disablers exist. Prior to finding the first, I was worried it didn't alert you that you were marked. Of the 2 Ive triggered, only the second caused a response and that likely wasn't the trap, but the scout in the camp that called out.

[Straegen.2938]

@zinkz.7045 said:

@"Straegen.2938" said:Heavies and most lights are utility or zerg focused. Mediums are built for scouting, roaming, etc. GW2 doesn't have a trinity system but they have gone out of their way to create a "job" system for classes.

Not really, the classes / combat were not designed around WvW, they were built around PvP (go find video of WvW "hero" Sacrx talking about alpha). Then for the first three years they were balanced nearly exclusively around PvP, then when they decided to add raids with HoT they also balanced around that, WvW gets nothing other than the odd crumb for large scale.

Which is why mesmer a light class has been one of the best two roamers the entire game, why warrior a heavy class has been better or has good for roaming than engy most of the game and so on, because there is minimal concern with WvW and virtually zero in regard to roaming.

The "balance" in WvW is largely just whatever kitten sticks from the design and balance decisions they take in other game modes, with the odd band-aid thrown in for show.

You are referring to balance which is different than intent. Clearly medium armor classes were meant for small scale with their general lack of AoEs, higher speed and more escape options in WvW. There are certainly some overlap outside of those intended roles but not much. Warrior and Mesmer are certainly exceptions but both those classes are still as focused on large scale play and utility as they are on small scale. It might have been a happy accident from ANet in the beginning but they have reinforced that intent through numerous class expansions.

[Fat Disgrace.4275]

@"sostronk.8167" said:This is absolute BS. I am constantly chased by blobs across the map these days. 10-15 man groups. This was the case in the past, but I could roam on a thief to avoid having to 1v15. Now they almost always know where I am and where I am going and I can't utilize stealth. Changes are only good for unskilled blob groups.

And nothing to do with "skilled stealth campers" right?

[zinkz.7045]

@Straegen.2938 said:

@zinkz.7045 said:

@Straegen.2938 said:Heavies and most lights are utility or zerg focused. Mediums are built for scouting, roaming, etc. GW2 doesn't have a trinity system but they have gone out of their way to create a "job" system for classes.

Not really, the classes / combat were not designed around WvW, they were built around PvP (go find video of WvW "hero" Sacrx talking about alpha). Then for the first three years they were balanced nearly exclusively around PvP, then when they decided to add raids with HoT they also balanced around that, WvW gets nothing other than the odd crumb for large scale.

Which is why mesmer a light class has been one of the best two roamers the entire game, why warrior a heavy class has been better or has good for roaming than engy most of the game and so on, because there is minimal concern with WvW and virtually zero in regard to roaming.

The "balance" in WvW is largely just whatever kitten sticks from the design and balance decisions they take in other game modes, with the odd band-aid thrown in for show.

You are referring to balance which is different than intent.

No I am referring to their design (intent) as well as balance, hence why I specifically mentioned design...

No classes were built for zergs or built for scouting, WvW was only even added to the game as a side project, WvW/PvE were meant to be casual fun, the classes were designed around their "e-sport". What ever level of performance at various aspects of WvW classes had was basically down to the design and balance decisions they took for PvP and a roll of a dice as to whether those mechanics translated to WvW.

Clearly medium armor classes were meant for small scale with their general lack of AoEs, higher speed and more escape options in WvW.

Not really, take engy as an example it had loads of AOE / skills that hit multiple targets (bombs, grenades, flamethrower, etc), whilst they worked fine in PvP when you had to fight over a point (remember Teldo), they did not translate to the much more open nature of WvW or the greater numbers (e.g - see retal on flamethrower / grenades). Because guess what - they weren't designed for WvW!

those classes are still as focused on large scale play and utility as they are on small scale. It might have been a happy accident from ANet in the beginning but they have reinforced that intent through numerous class expansions.

Those classes like everything else were designed and balanced for small scale (conquest PvP) and since HoT also for PvE raiding. There is no intent for WvW, all WvW generally gets is the odd change to whatever is considered super obnoxious in zergs, which is why class balance has basically been non-existent for 6 years.

Which is why they did nothing about ghost thief for years in WvW despite it basically breaking one of the things they highlighted pre-launch - no permastealth. Yet within 2 weeks of one showing their "challenging" PvE content for the joke it is by soloing a couple of raid bosses they nerfed it, virtually zero kittens are given about WvW (especially roaming) by Anet.

[Ezrael.6859]

@Raiden The Beast.3016 said:

@Ezrael.6859 said:Play a profession that doesn't rely on cheesy stealth mechanics.

... Jupp... so much more skillfull to play with perma blocks ,gozilla dmg, boonbitch, invu ... godsubstain... wvw isnt balanced at all for roaming no need to nerf stealth to the ground. Let me know what U R playing sensai

Are you sure you're old enough to play this game unsupervised?

[Nimon.7840]

It's good that people get marked more.More enemies for me to fight and kill^^

Playing solo necro btw when roaming.So I should get outclassed by any other class if they know what to do against necro.

Well about 80-90% don't know. Even though it's so damn easy to kill a solo necro.

To me as well, the original post sounds like: I get killed at roaming because I can't go stealth anywhere I want and for as long as I want.

If you really are a roamer, you want fights no?Or do you just want to go from supply camp to supply camp and that's it?For this it's a nerf. But it's a PvP gamemode

[Bern.9613]

I get rolling by a watch tower, you get marked/reveal. Run through a target painter trap, revealed and marked, that's bad luck. To have ppl dedicated to stealthing up and using target painter from stealth on zergs/roamers, holy troll Batman. Sentries doing revealed buff encourages poorer trolls to stand there and wait, omg they have nothing better to do. The addition of marked giving revealed has only frustrated ppl and increased the trollability (only in a MMO would trollabilty be concidered a verb) of others. I believe marked can stay in game, traps and tricks included, but revealed should be removed from sentries and target painter (the trollable/throwable one).

[Odokuro.5049]

It would appear that ANet is finally tired of the Stealth-Cheese meta in WvW and is seeing who can actually swim or who sinks like a stone? Welcome to a level playing field.

[sostronk.8167]

@Fat Disgrace.4275 said:

@"sostronk.8167" said:This is absolute BS. I am constantly chased by blobs across the map these days. 10-15 man groups. This was the case in the past, but I could roam on a thief to avoid having to 1v15. Now they almost always know where I am and where I am going and I can't utilize stealth. Changes are only good for unskilled blob groups.

And nothing to do with "skilled stealth campers" right?

In my experience, stealth campers already own the objectives so they don't have to worry about the debuff.

[bq pd.2148]

@sostronk.8167 said:

@Fat Disgrace.4275 said:

@sostronk.8167 said:This is absolute BS. I am constantly chased by blobs across the map these days. 10-15 man groups. This was the case in the past, but I could roam on a thief to avoid having to 1v15. Now they almost always know where I am and where I am going and I can't utilize stealth. Changes are only good for unskilled blob groups.

And nothing to do with "skilled stealth campers" right?

In my experience, stealth campers already own the objectives so they don't have to worry about the debuff.

why would i camp stealth in / around my objective?

[Klypto.1703]

@HazyDaisy.4107 said:As a mesmer, I've actually been looking to trigger these traps so others don't have to worry about them. In the week+ they've been out, I've only found 2 so far, which isn't suprising because...most people don't even know seige disablers exist. Prior to finding the first, I was worried it didn't alert you that you were marked. Of the 2 Ive triggered, only the second caused a response and that likely wasn't the trap, but the scout in the camp that called out.

Sad part is playing rev you don't even need those traps because they have a reveal like most of every class except for a few but funny part is how ppl talking about how great it is they haven't been killed by a thief and was like yeah remember when I used to save you all the time with my thief I was like yeah they took that away so good luck to you.

On top of this wvw is also dealing with the fallout of the one server that was way too highly stacked. All the players learned there is not to leave spawn without a tag and full squad so they have no idea on how to do anything on their own or even in small groups. So that with this has pretty much killed wvw in a nutshell. Only really bad players who run their gvg tome spam are allowed to play now.

Also yeah I've tried roaming on deadeye its just spawn camp with these things so basically no playing wvw till they revert this crap.

[HazyDaisy.4107]

@Klypto.1703 said:

@HazyDaisy.4107 said:As a mesmer, I've actually been looking to trigger these traps so others don't have to worry about them. In the week+ they've been out, I've only found 2 so far, which isn't suprising because...most people don't even know seige disablers exist. Prior to finding the first, I was worried it didn't alert you that you were marked. Of the 2 Ive triggered, only the second caused a response and that likely wasn't the trap, but the scout in the camp that called out.

Sad part is playing rev you don't even need those traps because they have a reveal like most of every class except for a few but funny part is how ppl talking about how great it is they haven't been killed by a thief and was like yeah remember when I used to save you all the time with my thief I was like yeah they took that away so good luck to you.

On top of this wvw is also dealing with the fallout of the one server that was way too highly stacked. All the players learned there is not to leave spawn without a tag and full squad so they have no idea on how to do anything on their own or even in small groups. So that with this has pretty much killed wvw in a nutshell. Only really bad players who run their gvg tome spam are allowed to play now.

Also yeah I've tried roaming on deadeye its just spawn camp with these things so basically no playing wvw till they revert this kitten.

Ok? I wasn't advocating for or against the traps, just saying I haven't encountered many, so I don't see why you quoted me.

Anyway, for the record, I like the traps. Those professions you spoke of with reveals, half of them didn't run them, and even if they did, a DE could simply cancel it, a feat not available to any other profession btw. Spawn camped with traps? I have to ask, is this your spawn or someone elses. Either way, the DEs started this long before the traps came out, so welcome to our world.

[zinkz.7045]

You can't kill something that was already dead.

[Dawdler.8521]

@zinkz.7045 said:You can't kill something that was already dead.Zombie movies prove otherwise.

[Kylden Ar.3724]

@Spartacus.3192 said:This marked thing only hurts stealth classes. I roam (solo or small group) as a guardian, spellbreaker and holo and this marked debuff hasn't hurt me in the slightest.

Yeah. Now imagine a WvW patch that specifically limited blocks or invulnerable.

[Spartacus.3192]

@Kylden Ar.3724 said:

@Spartacus.3192 said:This marked thing only hurts stealth classes. I roam (solo or small group) as a guardian, spellbreaker and holo and this marked debuff hasn't hurt me in the slightest.

Yeah. Now imagine a WvW patch that specifically limited blocks or invulnerable.

Blocks are useless anyway with the proliferation of unblockable skills. And to be honest. I would be happy with a reduction on the amount of invuln a lot of classes have (yes even my holo and spellbreaker).

[saerni.2584]

I'll comment as a non-perma stealth thief who actually likes the idea of getting rid of perma stealth.I like the concept of being marked and revealed if you stay in stealth too long. "Too long" means different things to different people. I think that a person should have four or five seconds to attack or be revealed under the new mechanic. That lets them use a single stealth combo or a longer stealth ability but doesn't result in perma stealth.The two second "I need to use an ability now or waste my stealth" (as a thief using stealth attacks) feels too short to be reasonable when combined with anti-stealth abilities on other professions.

• An example is Holo. When faced with an anti-stealth build who defends an allied sentry point there is almost no point in trying to fight the holo while marked is active. You need to defend against the Holo mobility/dps and reveal while also trying to not be auto revealed.

TLDR: Increase the time before being forcibly revealed to four seconds. You don't need less than that to fight perma-stealth abuse.

[Lithril Ashwalker.6230]

this needs to be revisited. I would come back if this were toned down / removed

[Dawdler.8521]

@Lithril Ashwalker.6230 said:this needs to be revisited. I would come back if this were toned down / removedI didnt even notice you where gone.

[Lithril Ashwalker.6230]

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@Lithril Ashwalker.6230 said:this needs to be revisited. I would come back if this were toned down / removedI didnt even notice you where gone.

were *

[Dawdler.8521]

@Lithril Ashwalker.6230 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@Lithril Ashwalker.6230 said:this needs to be revisited. I would come back if this were toned down / removedI didnt even notice you where gone.

were *Oh so that's why no one was correcting my spelling.