buff necro is back! — Guild Wars 2 Forums

buff necro is back!

Well for me it is anyway, and i am actually really happy about it

With this weeks update and rune of the pact changed to give out buffs every 30 seconds in combat means that as a plague doctors support necro i can put out more might and put out fury and even swiftness now.

now i dont feel useless in fractals :)

Comments

  • you may not feel useless but everyone else will be silently thinking that you are and that your spot would be better used if you were a Rev tis the sad truth because of Anets brainless balance team

  • Nimon.7840Nimon.7840 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Don't understand why a lot of people run full plaguedoctors. The stats are so bad distributed...

    As a support necro you want:
    Healpower
    Maybe a little bit of vitality
    Condition damage to do DPS

    What you don't want: concentration

    Why? When I last tested it, scourge wasn't able to keep 25stacks might on itself even with 80% boonduration
    The average mightstacks was 15-17.
    And that was before the abrasive grit change.
    Well it was a buff in might duration, but you have to be much more on point with barrier application than before.

    But back to plaguedoctors.
    Mainstats:
    -vita
    -condition damage

    Minor:
    -healpower
    -concentration

    But you don't want max vita. You want to max healpower and condition damage. So you are wasting more important stats in favour of vita.
    And about concentration I already talked about

  • Jimbru.6014Jimbru.6014 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 27, 2018

    Nimon: what you're describing is why my support scourge runs full Marshal with Flock runes and Water/Transference sigils.

    For comparison, a power DPS renegade can maintain 25 Might and high uptime Alacrity on a party just by using their Citadel Orders on cooldown. Plus Assassin's Presence and All For One for good measure. And that's not even a support build, let alone meta. Compared to that, much less to actual boon builds, the boons a scourge provides are so relatively minor that it's wasted potential to invest in them.

    Better to focus on healing power and a modicum of offense, especially since I mostly run open world and small group content. Barriers, life steals, a steady flow of splash heals and regen (thanks to Marks of Blood from staff and Mark of Evasion), and enough DPS to solo open world when I'm not supporting bigger things. It works for me...

  • Nimon.7840Nimon.7840 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Jimbru.6014 said:
    Nimon: what you're describing is why my support scourge runs full Marshal with Flock runes and Water/Transference sigils.

    For comparison, a power DPS renegade can maintain 25 Might and high uptime Alacrity on a party just by using their Citadel Orders on cooldown. Plus Assassin's Presence and All For One for good measure. And that's not even a support build, let alone meta. Compared to that, much less to actual boon builds, the boons a scourge provides are so relatively minor that it's wasted potential to invest in them.

    Better to focus on healing power and a modicum of offense, especially since I mostly run open world and small group content. Barriers, life steals, a steady flow of splash heals and regen (thanks to Marks of Blood from staff and Mark of Evasion), and enough DPS to solo open world when I'm not supporting bigger things. It works for me...

    Exactly my thoughts.

    I really don't get why people run plaguedoctors.

    Either go for full healpower with magi-gear.
    Or run marshals for better offensive options.

  • Jimbru.6014Jimbru.6014 Member ✭✭✭

    The way I see it, the most important of our boons is Stability from Trail of Anguish, not Might.

    Most classes can give themselves Might to some degree, and other classes can give group Might much more efficiently than necros. To be frank, our Might giving basically just helps to cover gaps in others' rotations.

    Conversely, group Stability is golden for a lot of situations, and scourges are one of the relatively few sources for that. But that one ability isn't worth a large investment in boon duration. The classes which are best off investing in boon duration are those which can give multiple boons efficiently, and necros ain't that.

  • Anchoku.8142Anchoku.8142 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Nimon.7840 said:

    @Jimbru.6014 said:
    Nimon: what you're describing is why my support scourge runs full Marshal with Flock runes and Water/Transference sigils.

    For comparison, a power DPS renegade can maintain 25 Might and high uptime Alacrity on a party just by using their Citadel Orders on cooldown. Plus Assassin's Presence and All For One for good measure. And that's not even a support build, let alone meta. Compared to that, much less to actual boon builds, the boons a scourge provides are so relatively minor that it's wasted potential to invest in them.

    Better to focus on healing power and a modicum of offense, especially since I mostly run open world and small group content. Barriers, life steals, a steady flow of splash heals and regen (thanks to Marks of Blood from staff and Mark of Evasion), and enough DPS to solo open world when I'm not supporting bigger things. It works for me...

    Exactly my thoughts.

    I really don't get why people run plaguedoctors.

    Either go for full healpower with magi-gear.
    Or run marshals for better offensive options.

    I consider Shaman's better than Magi's (precision but no extra power or condi) or Plaguedoctor's (concentration only works on regen). Bleed dps is not too bad while the vitality helps shroud bursts and tanking with dagger for LF, if necessary. Shaman's has no underused attributes on a condi build. I am currently testing a full set of Shaman's with Runes of Scavenging but will swap to Krait, soon.

    Zealot's a viable alternate to Marshal's on power builds, too. Currently looking over rune options for power-Reaper and power-Scourge.

  • Nimon.7840Nimon.7840 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Anchoku.8142 said:

    @Nimon.7840 said:

    @Jimbru.6014 said:
    Nimon: what you're describing is why my support scourge runs full Marshal with Flock runes and Water/Transference sigils.

    For comparison, a power DPS renegade can maintain 25 Might and high uptime Alacrity on a party just by using their Citadel Orders on cooldown. Plus Assassin's Presence and All For One for good measure. And that's not even a support build, let alone meta. Compared to that, much less to actual boon builds, the boons a scourge provides are so relatively minor that it's wasted potential to invest in them.

    Better to focus on healing power and a modicum of offense, especially since I mostly run open world and small group content. Barriers, life steals, a steady flow of splash heals and regen (thanks to Marks of Blood from staff and Mark of Evasion), and enough DPS to solo open world when I'm not supporting bigger things. It works for me...

    Exactly my thoughts.

    I really don't get why people run plaguedoctors.

    Either go for full healpower with magi-gear.
    Or run marshals for better offensive options.

    I consider Shaman's better than Magi's (precision but no extra power or condi) or Plaguedoctor's (concentration only works on regen). Bleed dps is not too bad while the vitality helps shroud bursts and tanking with dagger for LF, if necessary. Shaman's has no underused attributes on a condi build. I am currently testing a full set of Shaman's with Runes of Scavenging but will swap to Krait, soon.

    Zealot's a viable alternate to Marshal's on power builds, too. Currently looking over rune options for power-Reaper and power-Scourge.

    Where do you get regeneration from outside of dodge?
    Playing with staff? Don't think that's worth it.

    I tried again yesterday. Full marshals with mercy rune, transference and water sigil.

    Resulted in 8,4-8,9k DPS while being able to maintain the support.
    Spamming f5,f4,f3
    I could even afford to use f2.

    I had exactly 0 vitality. Why is everyone using that much vitality on scourge?
    If you really can play it, you don't need that extra vitality.

    Well of blood, well of power, dessicate, golem.
    Dagger/torch + dagger/horn

    Bloodmagic top,bottom,bottom
    Soulreaping top,mid, mid (8.9k DPS)/bot (8.4k DPS)
    Scourge top,top,top

    That was my setup.

    Someone might be able to reach more DPS. Maybe use sharpening stone instead of outgoing healing oil. Don't know if it's worth it (rice balls as food)

  • Jimbru.6014Jimbru.6014 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 30, 2018

    Compared to Marshal, Zealot gives up some healing and all the condi damage to have more Power and Precision. OK for more Power oriented offense, less so for general healing and support. Shaman's has massive Vitality, but gives up offense almost entirely except condi, with the same healing as Zealot. If you really need that much Vitality, you're doing something wrong.

    My setup: full ascended Marshal gear. Flock runes + Water and Transference sigils = lotsa splash heals. Dagger/torch + staff. I will eventually be making a warhorn to carry as an alternative, but right now I find the range and extra AOE utility of the staff to be useful, particularly in big events like world boss fights.

    Blood: 1, 3, 3.
    Soul Reaping: 2, 2, 2.
    Scourge: 3, 3, 3.

    Sometimes when I'm soloing I'll shuffle those around a bit to some more aggressive traits. But I generally find I can handle most things in the open world just fine.

  • support necro is non existent and anyone who believes otherwise is delusional.

    Te lazla otstra.

  • Dace.8173Dace.8173 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Nimon.7840 said:
    Don't understand why a lot of people run full plaguedoctors. The stats are so bad distributed...

    As a support necro you want:
    Healpower
    Maybe a little bit of vitality
    Condition damage to do DPS

    What you don't want: concentration

    Why? When I last tested it, scourge wasn't able to keep 25stacks might on itself even with 80% boonduration
    The average mightstacks was 15-17.
    And that was before the abrasive grit change.
    Well it was a buff in might duration, but you have to be much more on point with barrier application than before.

    But back to plaguedoctors.
    Mainstats:
    -vita
    -condition damage

    Minor:
    -healpower
    -concentration

    But you don't want max vita. You want to max healpower and condition damage. So you are wasting more important stats in favour of vita.
    And about concentration I already talked about

    My theory is that folks like how cool the name is as I've seen lots of people try to get it to work even though there are better stat combos. But that's just my own silly theory.

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    support necro is non existent and anyone who believes otherwise is delusional.

    Scourge.

  • @Dace.8173 said:
    Scourge.

    scourge what? a core guard with healing symbols would do a better job.

    Te lazla otstra.

  • Jimbru.6014Jimbru.6014 Member ✭✭✭

    Not a better job at barriers. :)

  • Dace.8173Dace.8173 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    @Dace.8173 said:
    Scourge.

    scourge what? a core guard with healing symbols would do a better job.

    Irrelevant. Scourge can, and often does, do support. The fact that Core Guardian can do a better job with healing symbols doesn't negate that. More than one profession can do something and there are varying levels to that. It isn't like this is the Thunderdome.

    Also, since Scourge isn't healing support the fact that Core Guardian does a better job with healing symbols is rendered moot. I would hope that something set up to do healing support is better than something that isn't.

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    scourge what? a core guard with healing symbols would do a better job.

    Well, scourge support up to 10 allies. Scourge can also support them from afar. If anything, Core necro healing support is already as good as core guardian healing support. The real difference only lie in the auxiliary support (boons and conditions). Scourge bring barrier on the table which can be seen as a different kind of aegis with it's pro and cons. So in a contest of support, scourge have definitely the edge over the core guardian in encounter with moderate instant incoming damage and low CC while the guardian have the edge against high instant damage and high CC. Scourge is designed to counter sustain damage while guardian is designed to counter burst. That's why they work well together since they each cover their end of the spectrum and thus compliment each other.

  • @Dace.8173 said:
    Irrelevant.
    It isn't like this is the Thunderdome.

    effectiveness is very relevant.
    hmm mad max reference you win this one.

    @Dadnir.5038 said:
    Well, scourge support up to 10 allies.

    eh? I thought their barrier skills were 5 peeps.

    Te lazla otstra.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 1, 2018

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    @Dace.8173 said:
    Irrelevant.
    It isn't like this is the Thunderdome.

    effectiveness is very relevant.

    That wasn't his point. The fact is that Scourge is not diminished as a support because of someone doing it better. That is meta-think and it's relevant to only a subset of teaming scenarios; one could argue that subset is small, so it's not hard to hypothesize that not being the best support is irrelevant to the idea that Scourge can be an effective support build to the overall game. The irrelevance here wasn't a reference to effectiveness of Scourge as a support, it was to the comparison of support Scourge to other classes to indicate it's not.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    @Dadnir.5038 said:
    Well, scourge support up to 10 allies.

    eh? I thought their barrier skills were 5 peeps.

    5 around you and 5 around your shade when you got the sand savant -> 10

  • Lahmia.2193Lahmia.2193 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    support necro is non existent and anyone who believes otherwise is delusional.

    I mean I'd define WvW blood scourge as support and that's meta.

    "Surrender and serve me in life, or die and slave for me in death."

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭

    For reaper in PvE, I think that they should reduce CD of shroud skill 4 by 20% in and buff shroud and GS damage a bit.

    For scourge, not sure. Ya barrier is cool, but scourge is not a support build by any means and you cannot build a support build with scourge in any form in any game mode.

  • @Obtena.7952 said:
    That wasn't his point. The fact is that Scourge is not diminished as a support because of someone doing it better. That is meta-think and it's relevant to only a subset of teaming scenarios; one could argue that subset is small, so it's not hard to hypothesize that not being the best support is irrelevant to the idea that Scourge can be an effective support build to the overall game. The irrelevance here wasn't a reference to effectiveness of Scourge as a support, it was to the comparison of support Scourge to other classes to indicate it's not.

    so is support thief a thing? no cuz its not effective.

    @Lahmia.2193 said:

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    support necro is non existent and anyone who believes otherwise is delusional.

    I mean I'd define WvW blood scourge as support and that's meta.

    well sure but the context here is fractals.

    Te lazla otstra.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 1, 2018

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    That wasn't his point. The fact is that Scourge is not diminished as a support because of someone doing it better. That is meta-think and it's relevant to only a subset of teaming scenarios; one could argue that subset is small, so it's not hard to hypothesize that not being the best support is irrelevant to the idea that Scourge can be an effective support build to the overall game. The irrelevance here wasn't a reference to effectiveness of Scourge as a support, it was to the comparison of support Scourge to other classes to indicate it's not.

    so is support thief a thing? no cuz its not effective.

    Effective is not black and white. Just because Thief Support is not effective doesn't mean Scourge Support isn't either. They are not correlated. Not being the best is not the same as not effective. Funny though ... you conclude theif support is not effective because it's not a thing people do ... but people DO use Scourge support ... yet you still concluded Scourge support isn't a thing either. What a contrived argument you have, made with 'selective' logic.

    Ignoring the useful aspects of the class doesn't make your argument to get buffs for it stronger. In fact, it diminishes any discussion to be had on the topic.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 1, 2018

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    That wasn't his point. The fact is that Scourge is not diminished as a support because of someone doing it better. That is meta-think and it's relevant to only a subset of teaming scenarios; one could argue that subset is small, so it's not hard to hypothesize that not being the best support is irrelevant to the idea that Scourge can be an effective support build to the overall game. The irrelevance here wasn't a reference to effectiveness of Scourge as a support, it was to the comparison of support Scourge to other classes to indicate it's not.

    so is support thief a thing? no cuz its not effective.

    Effective is not black and white. Just because Thief Support is not effective doesn't mean Scourge Support isn't either. They are not correlated. Not being the best is not the same as not effective.

    its not black and white but there is a certain threshold that must be met for something to be viable, and if im wrong here and somehow support scourge is viable in a place like fractals then that's fine too. the correlation here is effectiveness and viability. a team can run all clerics in a dungeon, beat it, and call themselves "not great but viable", while technically correct it would be pretty meaningless in the grand scheme of things (unless you consider looking at things through a microscope at the expense of others good practice).

    Te lazla otstra.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 1, 2018

    All true, so when you make comments that indicate other classes do it better, what are you saying about the absolute viability of a Scourge Support build? The answer is nothing, because comparisons to other classes are relative.

    If I got 3 classes an one does 100%, the next 99% and the last 98%, is the last 2 classes not viable? That makes no sense. That's what you do when you make relative comparisons between classes to conclude effectiveness. Even worse, it's not even that simple; classes are so different in how they play, tools, etc ... that relative comparisons for any individual element between them are just nonsense. If a group takes a Scourge Support and that works for them, that's all that matters.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @otto.5684 said:
    For scourge, not sure. Ya barrier is cool, but scourge is not a support build by any means and you cannot build a support build with scourge in any form in any game mode.

    Define "support"! Because like Lahmia said, Blood scourge is already a "support" in WvW, the scourge rez bot used in PvE raid is by definition a "support", even in sPvP the scourge of the FB/scourge duo can be perceived as a "support".

    The scourge is not a "support" in the same way that other professions support, the necromancer is just not designed to support in conventional way. However, all it's soft conditions, it's barrier, the few boons, the boon corruption, the condition manipulation and the heal he can dish out are legit "support". The fact that most of this support is especially effective in PvP while it's meh in PvE, don't change it's supportive nature.

    For reaper in PvE, I think that they should reduce CD of shroud skill 4 by 20% in and buff shroud and GS damage a bit.

    I don't think pushing thing further onto RS4 and GS would be a wise choice.

    Be it in PvE or any other gamemode, a good move would be to shorten Dagger auto chain by reducing some after casts (mostly the after cast on the 3rd attack of the chain) and make vital persistance CD reduction affect the shroud CD. (God how greedy can I be?)

    As for PvE only move:

    • shaving well of suffering CD by 5-10 seconds would be a good start.
    • Increasing BiP base damage/coefficient so that it deal decent damage could be a wise choice. At least make it deal as much damage as a necrotic stab.
    • Reducing chilling nova ICD in PvE to 4 second should also be a decent move, buffing both condi and power builds in PvE.
    • Minions active skills could deal damage scaling on the necromancer's stats. (6 years and it's still not a thing...)
    • Even locust swarm base damages could easily be doubled.

    Except for the minion's thing, these are only numbers change. I mean, is asking for core to be a bit more PvE friendly, really asking for to much? These changes would push all dps builds closer to the average profession's numbers and bring a bit more build diversity.

  • @Obtena.7952 said:
    All true, so when you make comments that indicate other classes do it better, what are you saying about the absolute viability of a Scourge Support build? The answer is nothing, because comparisons to other classes are relative.

    If I got 3 classes an one does 100%, the next 99% and the last 98%, is the last 2 classes not viable? That makes no sense. That's what you do when you make relative comparisons between classes to conclude effectiveness. Even worse, it's not even that simple; classes are so different in how they play, tools, etc ... that relative comparisons for any individual element between them are just nonsense. If a group takes a Scourge Support and that works for them, that's all that matters.

    ok whatever lol, if youre gonna bring absolutes into this then ill just say a few more things. I think support scourge is an incredibly bad idea, but if people wanna do it then at the very least they should be aware that there are a lot better builds out there that can contribute a whole lot more (and not take triple the time to complete the run). the 3 classes thing is incredibly disingenuous. if support chrono is 100%, then support necro is maybe 25% lol. sometimes people use comparisons to let other people know that you don't have to be a masochist to play this game, it can be both easier on yourself, your team, and even enjoyable to play other builds. in case you missed the entire point I was trying to make, I was challenging the very premise of support scourge working for anyone. but hey if it does it does and that's fine too, like I already said.

    Te lazla otstra.

  • Nimon.7840Nimon.7840 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lahmia.2193 said:

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    support necro is non existent and anyone who believes otherwise is delusional.

    I mean I'd define WvW blood scourge as support and that's meta.

    Err...
    It's like noone playing bloodmagic anymore in wvw.
    At least no transfusion, and people that do, get flamed to hell xD

    Spite/curses
    Curses/soulreaping
    Spite/soulreaping are the go to choices right now

  • Dace.8173Dace.8173 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    All true, so when you make comments that indicate other classes do it better, what are you saying about the absolute viability of a Scourge Support build? The answer is nothing, because comparisons to other classes are relative.

    If I got 3 classes an one does 100%, the next 99% and the last 98%, is the last 2 classes not viable? That makes no sense. That's what you do when you make relative comparisons between classes to conclude effectiveness. Even worse, it's not even that simple; classes are so different in how they play, tools, etc ... that relative comparisons for any individual element between them are just nonsense. If a group takes a Scourge Support and that works for them, that's all that matters.

    ok whatever lol, if youre gonna bring absolutes into this then ill just say a few more things. I think support scourge is an incredibly bad idea, but if people wanna do it then at the very least they should be aware that there are a lot better builds out there that can contribute a whole lot more (and not take triple the time to complete the run). the 3 classes thing is incredibly disingenuous. if support chrono is 100%, then support necro is maybe 25% lol. sometimes people use comparisons to let other people know that you don't have to be a masochist to play this game, it can be both easier on yourself, your team, and even enjoyable to play other builds. in case you missed the entire point I was trying to make, I was challenging the very premise of support scourge working for anyone. but hey if it does it does and that's fine too, like I already said.

    Except it does work for some people. Why would you challenge the premise that support Scourge works for some people when people say that it worked for them? Do you think those folks are lying about their experince with Scourge? You thinking it is a bad idea has no true bearing on whether or not it actually works, and it does. This also isn't an either or position. Just because support Chrono does it better than support Scourge doesn't mean support Scourge doesn't work. One profession doing something better doesn't render another profession from doing it, even if it is less than perfect. If that were the case, if it truly matters that support Chrono is better, therefore, support Scourge, the there pretty much isn't any point in playing anything but maybe two to four Elite specs.

    People gain enjoyment in different ways and some people don't need something to be the best in order for them to enjoy playing it. So long as it works some people will enjoy it. Other people enjoy the challenge of making something that is less than perfect work for them. Who are you to dictate to other people what is fun for them? If a person wants to play other builds then they should. If a person should play support Scourge then they should.

    There's this very toxic idea that the only things that should be played are the things that are the best of the best and those positions narrow the field of viable play options when it doesn't really need to happen. More people would be happy with Necromancer, as a whole, if there wasn't a segment of the Necromancer community trying to dictate to them what they should be playing and what they should find fun.

  • @Dace.8173 said:

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    All true, so when you make comments that indicate other classes do it better, what are you saying about the absolute viability of a Scourge Support build? The answer is nothing, because comparisons to other classes are relative.

    If I got 3 classes an one does 100%, the next 99% and the last 98%, is the last 2 classes not viable? That makes no sense. That's what you do when you make relative comparisons between classes to conclude effectiveness. Even worse, it's not even that simple; classes are so different in how they play, tools, etc ... that relative comparisons for any individual element between them are just nonsense. If a group takes a Scourge Support and that works for them, that's all that matters.

    ok whatever lol, if youre gonna bring absolutes into this then ill just say a few more things. I think support scourge is an incredibly bad idea, but if people wanna do it then at the very least they should be aware that there are a lot better builds out there that can contribute a whole lot more (and not take triple the time to complete the run). the 3 classes thing is incredibly disingenuous. if support chrono is 100%, then support necro is maybe 25% lol. sometimes people use comparisons to let other people know that you don't have to be a masochist to play this game, it can be both easier on yourself, your team, and even enjoyable to play other builds. in case you missed the entire point I was trying to make, I was challenging the very premise of support scourge working for anyone. but hey if it does it does and that's fine too, like I already said.

    Except it does work for some people. Why would you challenge the premise that support Scourge works for some people when people say that it worked for them? Do you think those folks are lying about their experince with Scourge? You thinking it is a bad idea has no true bearing on whether or not it actually works, and it does. This also isn't an either or position. Just because support Chrono does it better than support Scourge doesn't mean support Scourge doesn't work. One profession doing something better doesn't render another profession from doing it, even if it is less than perfect. If that were the case, if it truly matters that support Chrono is better, therefore, support Scourge, the there pretty much isn't any point in playing anything but maybe two to four Elite specs.

    People gain enjoyment in different ways and some people don't need something to be the best in order for them to enjoy playing it. So long as it works some people will enjoy it. Other people enjoy the challenge of making something that is less than perfect work for them. Who are you to dictate to other people what is fun for them? If a person wants to play other builds then they should. If a person should play support Scourge then they should.

    There's this very toxic idea that the only things that should be played are the things that are the best of the best and those positions narrow the field of viable play options when it doesn't really need to happen. More people would be happy with Necromancer, as a whole, if there wasn't a segment of the Necromancer community trying to dictate to them what they should be playing and what they should find fun.

    I understand your pov and youre right, but judging by your post you didn't really read mine so theres no point responding to yours. ill just sign off here im probably getting belligerent for no good reason.

    Te lazla otstra.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 2, 2018

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    All true, so when you make comments that indicate other classes do it better, what are you saying about the absolute viability of a Scourge Support build? The answer is nothing, because comparisons to other classes are relative.

    If I got 3 classes an one does 100%, the next 99% and the last 98%, is the last 2 classes not viable? That makes no sense. That's what you do when you make relative comparisons between classes to conclude effectiveness. Even worse, it's not even that simple; classes are so different in how they play, tools, etc ... that relative comparisons for any individual element between them are just nonsense. If a group takes a Scourge Support and that works for them, that's all that matters.

    ok whatever lol, if youre gonna bring absolutes into this then ill just say a few more things. I think support scourge is an incredibly bad idea, but if people wanna do it then at the very least they should be aware that there are a lot better builds out there that can contribute a whole lot more (and not take triple the time to complete the run). the 3 classes thing is incredibly disingenuous. if support chrono is 100%, then support necro is maybe 25% lol. sometimes people use comparisons to let other people know that you don't have to be a masochist to play this game, it can be both easier on yourself, your team, and even enjoyable to play other builds. in case you missed the entire point I was trying to make, I was challenging the very premise of support scourge working for anyone. but hey if it does it does and that's fine too, like I already said.

    The example wasn't meant to be disingenuous, it was meant to illustrate the difference between absolute and relative comparisons and why making a relative comparison to make conclusions about the absolute effectiveness of anything doesn't make sense. I did it explicitely because I see LOTS of faulty reason like that on these forums.

    The fact is that we don't have a way to measure how effective one classes' support is to another. The best we can do is allow players to choose what builds they want and eventually, what is 'bad' is filtered out. I get the point that you were making and the fact is that a support scourge works for LOTS of people. Maybe not the people you play with; maybe you are pro and your raid teams are too and don't need it. I know for a fact that the new people we play with and train raids with appreciate it incredibly. That doesn't make it any less effective as a build. Scourge support is definitely more EXCLUSIVE, but no one should question it's effectiveness.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    All true, so when you make comments that indicate other classes do it better, what are you saying about the absolute viability of a Scourge Support build? The answer is nothing, because comparisons to other classes are relative.

    If I got 3 classes an one does 100%, the next 99% and the last 98%, is the last 2 classes not viable? That makes no sense. That's what you do when you make relative comparisons between classes to conclude effectiveness. Even worse, it's not even that simple; classes are so different in how they play, tools, etc ... that relative comparisons for any individual element between them are just nonsense. If a group takes a Scourge Support and that works for them, that's all that matters.

    ok whatever lol, if youre gonna bring absolutes into this then ill just say a few more things. I think support scourge is an incredibly bad idea, but if people wanna do it then at the very least they should be aware that there are a lot better builds out there that can contribute a whole lot more (and not take triple the time to complete the run). the 3 classes thing is incredibly disingenuous. if support chrono is 100%, then support necro is maybe 25% lol. sometimes people use comparisons to let other people know that you don't have to be a masochist to play this game, it can be both easier on yourself, your team, and even enjoyable to play other builds. in case you missed the entire point I was trying to make, I was challenging the very premise of support scourge working for anyone. but hey if it does it does and that's fine too, like I already said.

    The example wasn't meant to be disingenuous, it was meant to illustrate the difference between absolute and relative comparisons and why making a relative comparison to make conclusions about the absolute effectiveness of anything doesn't make sense. I did it explicitely because I see LOTS of faulty reason like that on these forums.

    The fact is that we don't have a way to measure how effective one classes' support is to another. The best we can do is allow players to choose what builds they want and eventually, what is 'bad' is filtered out. I get the point that you were making and the fact is that a support scourge works for LOTS of people. Maybe not the people you play with; maybe you are pro and your raid teams are too and don't need it. I know for a fact that the new people we play with and train raids with appreciate it incredibly. That doesn't make it any less effective as a build. Scourge support is definitely more EXCLUSIVE, but no one should question it's effectiveness.

    my response to you is basically the same as my response to dace.
    "The fact is that we don't have a way to measure how effective one classes' support is to another"
    false
    "but no one should question it's effectiveness. "
    uhh k

    Te lazla otstra.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 2, 2018

    Well, I'm willing to be convinced I'm wrong. If there is a way to measure the relative effectiveness of the support the classes give, then go ahead and tell us what it is. I've never seen such a thing and I'm interested if someone has built a tool to do something like that. If you say it's false, there you're telling me there is a tool out there that measures support performance.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • santso.9201santso.9201 Member ✭✭✭

    Is My full Magi with Mercy runes wrong?

  • Nimon.7840Nimon.7840 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @santso.9201 said:
    Is My full Magi with Mercy runes wrong?

    It's good to carry noobs.
    Not good if you are running in good groups

    Especially after the abrasive grit nerf.

    We used support scourge before teapot put his video on.
    But now the condiremoves got gutted.

    Better run heal ele instead.

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