Why does nobody use the other Warrior heal skills? — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Why does nobody use the other Warrior heal skills?

Curennos.9307Curennos.9307 Member ✭✭✭

Really, they don't look all THAT bad compared to Healing Signet. I'm pretty bamboozled as to why I have never seen any warrior use a different heal - with most other classes there is small variance in heal skill selection, depending, but...Not warrior. HS every single time. The Spellbreaker heal I can understand, sort of, as losing 7 boons is absolutely ridiculous in the current meta - but in most SB vids I see, the player generally has only a couple boons that are easily reapplied anyway (painful to use if you have a Firebrand support spamming on you, but you probably don't need your heal right then, right?)

But the others don't seem quite so bad, and I've had some issues with the rather hefty cast time on Signet. I get that HS offers more healing overall, but it feels like there's a definite trade off in HS's sustained healing vs the other 'burstier' options.

Just as an example - I've started fooling around with running Str/Def/SB with MIght Makes Right. The sustained healing from the GM trait that rewards me for staying offensive is quite fun. I can also take the trait that reduces the CD On physical skills - Mending (which also has condi cleanse!) - and gives me a pretty hefty damage bonus. Pretty much everyone runs Defense, too, and the GM trait there includes stances, and we have a Stance heal skill - but I've never seen anyone use that either.

I also see some other discussion threads on the Warr forum about the other healing skills - just, based on personal experience, I really have never seen any of 'em used.

If someone could explain to me why HS reigns supreme + compared to the other options, I'd appreciate it. I've decided to try and main Warr for pvp and am trying to have a deeper understanding of the class. Thanks!

<1

Comments

  • Hoodie.1045Hoodie.1045 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 1, 2018

    @Curennos.9307 said:
    If someone could explain to me why HS reigns supreme + compared to the other options, I'd appreciate it. I've decided to try and main Warr for pvp and am trying to have a deeper understanding of the class. Thanks!

    The reason why Healing Signet is used by warriors in PvP and WvW is because it's the strongest passive healing skill in the game. Even with 0 healing power, it gives you 344 health every second and if you can kite enemies behind cover, over obstacles or terrain, you can gain back health, especially if enemy players aren't foolish enough to chase you and leave the node unguarded, plus it grants you resistance similar to Berserker Stance which makes you immune to any kind of condition damage. Combine the passive healing with Adrenal Health and you've got yourself a near unstoppable killing machine.

    In my opinion, Mending is a worthwhile healing skill that can be used even in PvP considering that in the previous balance patch it was made into a physical skill, so if you're using the Strength specialization and you take the Peak Performance trait, you now have a healing skill with 12 seconds cooldown and it removes 3 conditions. But this would only work if you're fighting against a mostly condition comp like scourges, mirages etc. and if you're playing core warrior.

    The reason why I say core warrior is because it has better cleansing than spellbreaker. If you use the trait Cleansing Ire from the Defense specialization, you can remove conditions based on the number of adrenaline bars spent, spellbreaker has 2 bars, core warrior has 3 bars. Another thing is if you use the Burst Mastery trait from the Discipline specialization, you can use Eviscerate, remove 3 conditions (if your adrenaline bar is full), swap to the greatsword and remove one more condition because swapping weapons gives you adrenaline.

    As for Defiant Stance and "To the Limit!", don't even bother with these skills. If I was forced to choose between the two, I would choose Defiant Stance over "To the Limit!", despite it being one of those stupid healing skills that rely on your enemies hitting you, also both of them have 30 seconds cooldown which can't be reduced using traits. "To the Limit!" is mostly used by core banner warriors in fractals and raids and that's the only reason why you would use it.

    Karras The Engineer

  • luzonophir.7134luzonophir.7134 Member ✭✭
    edited December 1, 2018

    not only that, you will have resistance, to extend with Zerkers Stance, when you activate it. useful in either offensing or defensing.

  • Blocki.4931Blocki.4931 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Personally I use Mending or even the occasional Defiant Stance sometimes. That is WvW and open world. The condi cleanse became a bit less needed with the buff to Shake it Off, but it's still great imo, even without going Strength.

    Smugly chuckling forever.
    My sentence doesn't make sense? Well, I probably forgot to write half of it before posting.

  • mending all the way. its 18 less hps compared to heal sig. the burst heal+condi removal is imo better then heal sigs active.

  • They aren't bad at all, really. It's just that Healing Signet will work slightly better for most builds, can't have its main function interrupted, and provides an emergency source of resistance. Mending is fine, but most warrior builds are sturdy enough not to need the big chunk of healing all at once, which means the main advantages will be the temporary damage boost from the trait/a preference for cleansing over resistance. The shout is a bit bleh, although it might have some use for a zerker gimmick build or something. Defiant Stance is good for what it is, an oddball alternative that gives us another invuln to go in and pressure with. Defiant Stance does have the problem of being a bit too easy to kite/wait out though- you can't rely on a big heal out of it against anyone paying attention.

    This is all based on personal experience, mostly WvW roaming. I'm sure some of it would apply either more or less to Circle Wars, which I've been mostly away from for a while.

  • Hitman.5829Hitman.5829 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Hoodie.1045 said:

    @Curennos.9307 said:
    If someone could explain to me why HS reigns supreme + compared to the other options, I'd appreciate it. I've decided to try and main Warr for pvp and am trying to have a deeper understanding of the class. Thanks!

    The reason why Healing Signet is used by warriors in PvP and WvW is because it's the strongest passive healing skill in the game. Even with 0 healing power, it gives you 344 health every second.

    Wrong, healing signet is one of the weakest or mid tier healing for warrior.

    • Healing signet: 344*20 = 6880 healing total
    • mending: 6520/15 = 435 per second
    • Defiant Stance: full health if you get attack by noobs OR 1800 if you do not get attacked at all.
    • To the limit: 9100/30 = 303 per second

    So, based on healing alone:
    1.- mending
    2- Defiant stance (conditional)
    3- Healing signet
    4.- To the limit

    However, if we rank them with healing + side effects, then:
    1.- To the limit
    2.- Mending
    3.- Healing signet
    4.- Defiant Stance

    The only reason warriors choose healing signet is because of resistance due to the current plague of noob-condi builds.
    Imagine a world where there is 0 noob condibuilds? why would a warrior choose healing signet over to the limit.

    Charr Warrior Master Race!
    Black Gate Beast Roamer chicken chaser!

  • Hoodie.1045Hoodie.1045 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Hitman.5829 said:

    @Hoodie.1045 said:

    @Curennos.9307 said:
    If someone could explain to me why HS reigns supreme + compared to the other options, I'd appreciate it. I've decided to try and main Warr for pvp and am trying to have a deeper understanding of the class. Thanks!

    The reason why Healing Signet is used by warriors in PvP and WvW is because it's the strongest passive healing skill in the game. Even with 0 healing power, it gives you 344 health every second.

    Wrong, healing signet is one of the weakest or mid tier healing for warrior.

    • Healing signet: 344*20 = 6880 healing total
    • mending: 6520/15 = 435 per second
    • Defiant Stance: full health if you get attack by noobs OR 1800 if you do not get attacked at all.
    • To the limit: 9100/30 = 303 per second

    I made a mistake of being too general with that statement, what I meant to say is that it's the best passive healing skill compared to other passive healing skills like Virtue of Resolve or Backpack Regenerator.

    Karras The Engineer

  • Hitman.5829Hitman.5829 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Hoodie.1045 said:

    @Hitman.5829 said:

    @Hoodie.1045 said:

    @Curennos.9307 said:
    If someone could explain to me why HS reigns supreme + compared to the other options, I'd appreciate it. I've decided to try and main Warr for pvp and am trying to have a deeper understanding of the class. Thanks!

    The reason why Healing Signet is used by warriors in PvP and WvW is because it's the strongest passive healing skill in the game. Even with 0 healing power, it gives you 344 health every second.

    Wrong, healing signet is one of the weakest or mid tier healing for warrior.

    • Healing signet: 344*20 = 6880 healing total
    • mending: 6520/15 = 435 per second
    • Defiant Stance: full health if you get attack by noobs OR 1800 if you do not get attacked at all.
    • To the limit: 9100/30 = 303 per second

    I made a mistake of being too general with that statement, what I meant to say is that it's the best passive healing skill compared to other passive healing skills like Virtue of Resolve or Backpack Regenerator.

    Well, you are now comparing apples to oranges and for your information virtue of resolve is not a healing skill neither backpack regenerator.

    Charr Warrior Master Race!
    Black Gate Beast Roamer chicken chaser!

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 1, 2018

    As much as I like HS, Warrior shouldn't have such a strong passive healing capability because as a class with a very small (maybe the smallest?) number of options to press; almost all their skills should be on low CD's and active.
    Not sure that explains it well.

    Warriors basically have 11 core skills (10 hotbar and F1) and SB/Berserker have 12. I believe of all the classes, this is the smallest number of accessible actions. I don't think the class warrants such a strong passive skill given the small number of actions it has access to and for management reasons.

    I can also see why it has it; everyone familiar with RPG's knows about a warrior class, so maybe Anet built it to be an 'easy' entry class for all players.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Hitman.5829Hitman.5829 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    As much as I like HS, Warrior shouldn't have such a strong passive healing capability because as a class with a very small (maybe the smallest?) number of options to press; almost all their skills should be on low CD's and active.
    Not sure that explains it well.

    Warriors basically have 11 core skills (10 hotbar and F1) and SB/Berserker have 12. I believe of all the classes, this is the smallest number of accessible actions. I don't think the class warrants such a strong passive skill given the small number of actions it has access to and for management reasons.

    I can also see why it has it; everyone familiar with RPG's knows about a warrior class, so maybe Anet built it to be an 'easy' entry class for all players.

    Passive healing of 344 is equivalent to 6880 how is that strong?
    HS has been nerfed over and over again and people still complain? This is a L2P issue nothing more.
    If you think that 6880 healing is strong, then you are lost and need to uninstall game. It is that simple!

    Charr Warrior Master Race!
    Black Gate Beast Roamer chicken chaser!

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Hitman.5829 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    As much as I like HS, Warrior shouldn't have such a strong passive healing capability because as a class with a very small (maybe the smallest?) number of options to press; almost all their skills should be on low CD's and active.
    Not sure that explains it well.

    Warriors basically have 11 core skills (10 hotbar and F1) and SB/Berserker have 12. I believe of all the classes, this is the smallest number of accessible actions. I don't think the class warrants such a strong passive skill given the small number of actions it has access to and for management reasons.

    I can also see why it has it; everyone familiar with RPG's knows about a warrior class, so maybe Anet built it to be an 'easy' entry class for all players.

    Passive healing of 344 is equivalent to 6880 how is that strong?
    HS has been nerfed over and over again and people still complain? This is a L2P issue nothing more.
    If you think that 6880 healing is strong, then you are lost and need to uninstall game. It is that simple!

    It's strong compared to other passive heals.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • I love mending now it's traited like a Phyical skill.
    On core warrior for roaming, with Strenght Spec : 6k healing, cleanse 3 conditions, +20% dmg (6sec), and all that every 12sec. I use too Rune of Brawler (and sigil of Battle=), with MMR it's really strong

  • Hitman.5829Hitman.5829 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Hitman.5829 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    As much as I like HS, Warrior shouldn't have such a strong passive healing capability because as a class with a very small (maybe the smallest?) number of options to press; almost all their skills should be on low CD's and active.
    Not sure that explains it well.

    Warriors basically have 11 core skills (10 hotbar and F1) and SB/Berserker have 12. I believe of all the classes, this is the smallest number of accessible actions. I don't think the class warrants such a strong passive skill given the small number of actions it has access to and for management reasons.

    I can also see why it has it; everyone familiar with RPG's knows about a warrior class, so maybe Anet built it to be an 'easy' entry class for all players.

    Passive healing of 344 is equivalent to 6880 how is that strong?
    HS has been nerfed over and over again and people still complain? This is a L2P issue nothing more.
    If you think that 6880 healing is strong, then you are lost and need to uninstall game. It is that simple!

    It's strong compared to other passive heals.

    Such nonsense! The healing is 6880 and that is it.
    If you get a huge critical hit, you do not have the option to click your healing skill and heal back immediately. With HS you don't have that option!

    Charr Warrior Master Race!
    Black Gate Beast Roamer chicken chaser!

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 2, 2018

    True, it's not going to heal a burst, but then again, if someone is bursting you (and you let them), their goal is to finish you off anyways, or get you so far down that it's trivial to kill you.

    Besides, other passive heals are much less, so it's not nonsense that compared to other passive heals, it's the best. That's an important distinction. I think the truth is that if you play like you have passive healing, you play different than you would active healing. if you don't, then of course it's a trash heal. This is a hard thing to prove but:

    I would hypothesize that given a capable PVP player, their ability to adjust and play with a passive heal would benefit them more than an active one ... with the caveat that all heal skills only provide healing. That's a bold statement, given that I can't prove it or even argue the reasons why because heal skills AREN'T just about healing, some give other benefits. My only thinking to support that hypothesis is that it's one less thing a player needs to manage, making it simpler, freeing up time for fewer actions to choose from while maintaining the healing benefit.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Hitman.5829Hitman.5829 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    You keep mentioning passive heals as if they were some kind of overpower healing. You have not shown with numbers how healing signet is any better than the other healing from warrior. IF you scroll up, you will see the numbers I posted with ranking of best healing.

    You kind of remind me of toddlers when they do their tantrums like this:
    Toddler 1: Daddy why is my brother getting 344 dollars per day while I get 6880 every 20 days? It is not fair daddy!
    Dad: Listern jimmy, you and your brother get the same amount of money and I can prove it to you. 344*20 = 6880 see jimmy you and your brother get the same money.
    Toddler 1: but daddy, my brother is getting more money, he gets 344 every day and I get only 6880 every 20 days. How is that fair, it is over power. How come he gets 344 every day and I get 0 money.

    The discussion goes on and on like this because the toddler does not understand basic logic. So, just like the dad stops giving attention to the toddler, so will I. Sorry but I have spend so much time with this nonsense.

    Charr Warrior Master Race!
    Black Gate Beast Roamer chicken chaser!

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 2, 2018

    @Hitman.5829 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    You keep mentioning passive heals as if they were some kind of overpower healing. You have not shown with numbers how healing signet is any better than the other healing from warrior. IF you scroll up, you will see the numbers I posted with ranking of best healing.

    You kind of remind me of toddlers when they do their tantrums like this:
    Toddler 1: Daddy why is my brother getting 344 dollars per day while I get 6880 every 20 days? It is not fair daddy!
    Dad: Listern jimmy, you and your brother get the same amount of money and I can prove it to you. 344*20 = 6880 see jimmy you and your brother get the same money.
    Toddler 1: but daddy, my brother is getting more money, he gets 344 every day and I get only 6880 every 20 days. How is that fair, it is over power. How come he gets 344 every day and I get 0 money.

    The discussion goes on and on like this because the toddler does not understand basic logic. So, just like the dad stops giving attention to the toddler, so will I. Sorry but I have spend so much time with this nonsense.

    No I'm not ... I've simply made a statement that HS is the most powerful passive healing skill. Not sure what you want from me here; tell you I'm lying to simply argue with you? If I go back in the discussion, it appears to me that it is you that is not acknowledging the value of passive skills. I've made no attempt to compare HS to active healing here ... but you have. If you love active healing, use it. I mean, I've given you some reason behind my thinking, the best counter you have is to compare me to a toddler /shrug.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Hitman.5829Hitman.5829 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Hitman.5829 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    You keep mentioning passive heals as if they were some kind of overpower healing. You have not shown with numbers how healing signet is any better than the other healing from warrior. IF you scroll up, you will see the numbers I posted with ranking of best healing.

    You kind of remind me of toddlers when they do their tantrums like this:
    Toddler 1: Daddy why is my brother getting 344 dollars per day while I get 6880 every 20 days? It is not fair daddy!
    Dad: Listern jimmy, you and your brother get the same amount of money and I can prove it to you. 344*20 = 6880 see jimmy you and your brother get the same money.
    Toddler 1: but daddy, my brother is getting more money, he gets 344 every day and I get only 6880 every 20 days. How is that fair, it is over power. How come he gets 344 every day and I get 0 money.

    The discussion goes on and on like this because the toddler does not understand basic logic. So, just like the dad stops giving attention to the toddler, so will I. Sorry but I have spend so much time with this nonsense.

    No I'm not ... I've simply made a statement that HS is the most powerful passive healing skill. Not sure what you want from me here.

    Passive healing or not, you get 6880 jimmy.
    The NET TOTAL healing is what counts.

    Charr Warrior Master Race!
    Black Gate Beast Roamer chicken chaser!

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 2, 2018

    @Hitman.5829 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Hitman.5829 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    You keep mentioning passive heals as if they were some kind of overpower healing. You have not shown with numbers how healing signet is any better than the other healing from warrior. IF you scroll up, you will see the numbers I posted with ranking of best healing.

    You kind of remind me of toddlers when they do their tantrums like this:
    Toddler 1: Daddy why is my brother getting 344 dollars per day while I get 6880 every 20 days? It is not fair daddy!
    Dad: Listern jimmy, you and your brother get the same amount of money and I can prove it to you. 344*20 = 6880 see jimmy you and your brother get the same money.
    Toddler 1: but daddy, my brother is getting more money, he gets 344 every day and I get only 6880 every 20 days. How is that fair, it is over power. How come he gets 344 every day and I get 0 money.

    The discussion goes on and on like this because the toddler does not understand basic logic. So, just like the dad stops giving attention to the toddler, so will I. Sorry but I have spend so much time with this nonsense.

    No I'm not ... I've simply made a statement that HS is the most powerful passive healing skill. Not sure what you want from me here.

    Passive healing or not, you get 6880 jimmy.
    The NET TOTAL healing is what counts.

    /shrug again, depends how you play. Net total healing over time is really what counts here; there is more to the assessment of heals than what burst you can heal. Also, what other skills you get from using the heal. Looking at any skill in isolation doesn't really give a good idea of what it's capable of. I would even argue that it's going to be really hard for someone to burst you if they can't get you down to the health threshold where their burst kills you; that's what a passive HoT does for you.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • KryTiKaL.3125KryTiKaL.3125 Member ✭✭✭

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Hitman.5829 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    You keep mentioning passive heals as if they were some kind of overpower healing. You have not shown with numbers how healing signet is any better than the other healing from warrior. IF you scroll up, you will see the numbers I posted with ranking of best healing.

    You kind of remind me of toddlers when they do their tantrums like this:
    Toddler 1: Daddy why is my brother getting 344 dollars per day while I get 6880 every 20 days? It is not fair daddy!
    Dad: Listern jimmy, you and your brother get the same amount of money and I can prove it to you. 344*20 = 6880 see jimmy you and your brother get the same money.
    Toddler 1: but daddy, my brother is getting more money, he gets 344 every day and I get only 6880 every 20 days. How is that fair, it is over power. How come he gets 344 every day and I get 0 money.

    The discussion goes on and on like this because the toddler does not understand basic logic. So, just like the dad stops giving attention to the toddler, so will I. Sorry but I have spend so much time with this nonsense.

    No I'm not ... I've simply made a statement that HS is the most powerful passive healing skill. Not sure what you want from me here; tell you I'm lying to simply argue with you? If I go back in the discussion, it appears to me that it is you that is not acknowledging the value of passive skills. I've made no attempt to compare HS to active healing here ... but you have. If you love active healing, use it. I mean, I've given you some reason behind my thinking, the best counter you have is to compare me to a toddler /shrug.

    Its the strongest passive heal because the other classes with similar skills (Signet of Renewal, Signet of Courage, Virtue of Resolve) have other much more valuable heals or healing utilities than Warrior has nowhere near the kind of access to.

    Ranger might get Signet of Renewal but it also has access to and almost primarily uses Troll Unguent and We Heal As One however Healing Spring can also be a somewhat viable option when used in conjunction with Druid. Druid itself has other heals outside of just its Heal skill when using their Celestial Avatar form paired with the quite impressive boon uptime that Rangers can achieve just in general across all of their specs (Core, Druid and Soulbeast).

    Guardian has both Signet of Courage and Virtue of Resolve. Signet of Courage isn't all that great of an elite, definitely not worthwhile to take over Renewed Focus or Feel my Wrath, and in the case of Dragonhunter you would probably take Dragon's Maw (trap) over Signet of Courage. Guardian heals extend well beyond passive healing with Virtue of Resolve, which can get bumped up to a 315 heal every 3 seconds when traited, because of its access to Shelter, Receive the Light, Virtue of Resolve's active heal, Dragonhunter's Purification, or the Firebrands slew of other healing skills.

    In Warrior's case they get active heals from no other sources. Mending can be a viable skill but Healing Signet is still generally preferred over it unless in specific circumstances on who you are fighting (not what class). You can trait for shout heals but the amount healed is negligible unless the Warrior builds healing power and that is nowhere near an ideal thing Warriors can do and there is really only 1 shout that is worthwhile to take in PvP which is better used for Stunbreaks and condi cleanses and not healing. One could trait for gaining regeneration from placed Banners but again one would need to use the appropriate stat set to make this worthwhile which would only reduce their offensive effectiveness. Outside of needing to trait and build stats specifically for healing, Warrior has no access to heals outside of Healing Signet and stacking Adrenal Health from actually landing their bursts. Warrior passive healing is strong, certainly, but that sustain relies almost entirely on the Warrior's ability to hit with, not just use, a Burst skill. There is an exception for Longbow in that you just need to drop Longbow's burst skill on the ground to gain Adrenal Health but I've only seen this work exceptionally well when I fought one Warrior and he was very good.

    Don't overestimate passive healing without considering the circumstances behind how it is applied based around classes. It can be strong but not in the same way among different classes. Passive Healing is the best healing Warrior has access to while still being able to build to actually deal damage, every other class has access to active heals to accomplish this whereas Warrior does not. Warrior sustain also encourages a more aggressive playstyle, needing to sort of "trick" your opponent, if they are actually good, so that they don't dodge, block, invuln, blind, or evade your Burst skills. Warrior has some of the most telegraphed skills in the game and with their best sustain being locked behind needing to hit with these skills it can make things quite difficult for them when encountering actual good players.

  • babazhook.6805babazhook.6805 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 3, 2018

    I find in specific build both "to the limit" and "mending" superior.

    If there a number of condition removal skills in the build adding Mending can put it over the top where a use of resistance never really needed. It also has a low ICD for spike heals. If there other heal sources in the build it just more efficient then signet.(Sun and moon + regen source Plus Adrenal Plus Might makes right is plenty of alternate heals) Granted this specific towards certain builds (condition) which rapidly disappear and or which can be neutralized via some of the new sigils (Cleansing as example).

    To the limit provides an extra dodge. As example I use in one build via DE thief using rifle , I can quite easily dodge the DJ strikes and heal through the rest via various passives an to the limit when struck. The heal is fat as well . Warrior against a very bursty kiting spec will often find the passive of HS just does not do the job. 1K health per tick is not going to help a heck of a lo of the next hit coming in is unblockable and will do 10K+ when your healt sits at 6k.

    To the limit+ Might makes right is an endurance engine and I feel the fatter heal and the extra dodges provided can more then make up for HS passive. Throw in the added adrenaline it provides and I get more chances at a burst as well.

    Signet works better in the more drawn out fights where the opponent has less burst/kite ability.

    If I had to rate the heals in very general terms . I would have them about where HITMAN rates them.

  • KryTiKaL.3125KryTiKaL.3125 Member ✭✭✭

    @babazhook.6805 said:
    To the limit provides an extra dodge. As example I use in one build via DE thief using rifle , I can quite easily dodge the DJ strikes and heal through the rest via various passives an to the limit when struck. The heal is fat as well . Warrior against a very bursty kiting spec will often find the passive of HS just does not do the job. 1K health per tick is not going to help a heck of a lo of the next hit coming in is unblockable and will do 10K+ when your healt sits at 6k.

    Signet works better in the more drawn out fights where the opponent has less burst/kite ability.

    First off, if you just save your dodges for when the DE uses DJ then you're going to be fine. Running Shield with Shield Master gives you the defense needed against Three Round Burst should the DE use it, the immob can be removed with movement abilities from GS (gs3 and gs5) or with Bull's Charge if you're running Core or Agriope's build with Spellbreaker. Otherwise you can use your dodges to avoid the DJ, you can easily have enough endurance available for them if you save the dodges for that and in dire circumstances you can actively use Endure Pain if Defy Pain passive is on ICD.

    Secondly, Signet is an all around solid choice on Warrior. Sure there are stronger more active heals that can get you more health in a shorter span of time but don't forget that Warrior has some very good mobility, nothing compared to Mesmer, Thief or Ranger honestly, but still very good. Surviving against the burst builds means landing your Burst skills and building Adrenal Health stacks so that you can take advantage of the times when you have Endure Pain active, when you use block or when you kite and LoS the enemy around obstacles. You can even heal up some with Might Makes Right paired with Shield Master should you time it right against things like Rapid Fire, Mesmer shatter combos, Hundred Blades, Whirling Defense, Whirling Axe, etc; really any skill that hits multiple times in a short period of time.

    The more you comment on Warrior the more I want to see you perform in a 1v1 or 1vX scenario in-game on the class because you say some weird stuff.

  • babazhook.6805babazhook.6805 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 4, 2018

    @KryTiKaL.3125 said:

    @babazhook.6805 said:
    To the limit provides an extra dodge. As example I use in one build via DE thief using rifle , I can quite easily dodge the DJ strikes and heal through the rest via various passives an to the limit when struck. The heal is fat as well . Warrior against a very bursty kiting spec will often find the passive of HS just does not do the job. 1K health per tick is not going to help a heck of a lo of the next hit coming in is unblockable and will do 10K+ when your healt sits at 6k.

    Signet works better in the more drawn out fights where the opponent has less burst/kite ability.

    First off, if you just save your dodges for when the DE uses DJ then you're going to be fine. Running Shield with Shield Master gives you the defense needed against Three Round Burst should the DE use it, the immob can be removed with movement abilities from GS (gs3 and gs5) or with Bull's Charge if you're running Core or Agriope's build with Spellbreaker. Otherwise you can use your dodges to avoid the DJ, you can easily have enough endurance available for them if you save the dodges for that and in dire circumstances you can actively use Endure Pain if Defy Pain passive is on ICD.

    Secondly, Signet is an all around solid choice on Warrior. Sure there are stronger more active heals that can get you more health in a shorter span of time but don't forget that Warrior has some very good mobility, nothing compared to Mesmer, Thief or Ranger honestly, but still very good. Surviving against the burst builds means landing your Burst skills and building Adrenal Health stacks so that you can take advantage of the times when you have Endure Pain active, when you use block or when you kite and LoS the enemy around obstacles. You can even heal up some with Might Makes Right paired with Shield Master should you time it right against things like Rapid Fire, Mesmer shatter combos, Hundred Blades, Whirling Defense, Whirling Axe, etc; really any skill that hits multiple times in a short period of time.

    The more you comment on Warrior the more I want to see you perform in a 1v1 or 1vX scenario in-game on the class because you say some weird stuff.

    I play what works for me. If you think it wierd it your problem. You play what works for you. As far as I can tell the difference between you and me is I play three variants of warrior each with a different loadout of weapons traits and skills. In one of them HS works best. In the other two not so much. I do not play one build that rules them all pulled off metabattle.

  • Curennos.9307Curennos.9307 Member ✭✭✭

    Thank you all for your responses thus far, it's been a great help!

  • KryTiKaL.3125KryTiKaL.3125 Member ✭✭✭

    @babazhook.6805 said:

    @KryTiKaL.3125 said:

    @babazhook.6805 said:
    To the limit provides an extra dodge. As example I use in one build via DE thief using rifle , I can quite easily dodge the DJ strikes and heal through the rest via various passives an to the limit when struck. The heal is fat as well . Warrior against a very bursty kiting spec will often find the passive of HS just does not do the job. 1K health per tick is not going to help a heck of a lo of the next hit coming in is unblockable and will do 10K+ when your healt sits at 6k.

    Signet works better in the more drawn out fights where the opponent has less burst/kite ability.

    First off, if you just save your dodges for when the DE uses DJ then you're going to be fine. Running Shield with Shield Master gives you the defense needed against Three Round Burst should the DE use it, the immob can be removed with movement abilities from GS (gs3 and gs5) or with Bull's Charge if you're running Core or Agriope's build with Spellbreaker. Otherwise you can use your dodges to avoid the DJ, you can easily have enough endurance available for them if you save the dodges for that and in dire circumstances you can actively use Endure Pain if Defy Pain passive is on ICD.

    Secondly, Signet is an all around solid choice on Warrior. Sure there are stronger more active heals that can get you more health in a shorter span of time but don't forget that Warrior has some very good mobility, nothing compared to Mesmer, Thief or Ranger honestly, but still very good. Surviving against the burst builds means landing your Burst skills and building Adrenal Health stacks so that you can take advantage of the times when you have Endure Pain active, when you use block or when you kite and LoS the enemy around obstacles. You can even heal up some with Might Makes Right paired with Shield Master should you time it right against things like Rapid Fire, Mesmer shatter combos, Hundred Blades, Whirling Defense, Whirling Axe, etc; really any skill that hits multiple times in a short period of time.

    The more you comment on Warrior the more I want to see you perform in a 1v1 or 1vX scenario in-game on the class because you say some weird stuff.

    I play what works for me. If you think it wierd it your problem. You play what works for you. As far as I can tell the difference between you and me is I play three variants of warrior each with a different loadout of weapons traits and skills. In one of them HS works best. In the other two not so much. I do not play one build that rules them all pulled off metabattle.

    Ahhhh it all makes sense now. Anti-meta preacher. Got it.

    Play what you want, all well and good, just do others a favor and don't spread the kind of misinformation that comes with that mindset. It turns into "I can play whatever random nonsense build I concoct in my head and I should be fine". As much as people may want that to be the case...it isn't. The meta builds, and by proxy their variants, work because these things have been tested and put through the grinder. Also "one build that rules them all" not even the case. Effective Warrior builds: dagger-shield/gs Spellbreaker, sword-shield/gs Tetherbreaker, axe-shield/gs core warrior, axe-shield/gs berserker (yes still works but not quite as viable as core). Even among the meta builds it isn't just a single build.

  • DanAlcedo.3281DanAlcedo.3281 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 4, 2018

    Why change something when you don’t even know if the new is an improvement.

    Good old reliable Heal Signet works just fine..

  • babazhook.6805babazhook.6805 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 4, 2018

    @KryTiKaL.3125 said:

    @babazhook.6805 said:

    @KryTiKaL.3125 said:

    @babazhook.6805 said:
    To the limit provides an extra dodge. As example I use in one build via DE thief using rifle , I can quite easily dodge the DJ strikes and heal through the rest via various passives an to the limit when struck. The heal is fat as well . Warrior against a very bursty kiting spec will often find the passive of HS just does not do the job. 1K health per tick is not going to help a heck of a lo of the next hit coming in is unblockable and will do 10K+ when your healt sits at 6k.

    Signet works better in the more drawn out fights where the opponent has less burst/kite ability.

    First off, if you just save your dodges for when the DE uses DJ then you're going to be fine. Running Shield with Shield Master gives you the defense needed against Three Round Burst should the DE use it, the immob can be removed with movement abilities from GS (gs3 and gs5) or with Bull's Charge if you're running Core or Agriope's build with Spellbreaker. Otherwise you can use your dodges to avoid the DJ, you can easily have enough endurance available for them if you save the dodges for that and in dire circumstances you can actively use Endure Pain if Defy Pain passive is on ICD.

    Secondly, Signet is an all around solid choice on Warrior. Sure there are stronger more active heals that can get you more health in a shorter span of time but don't forget that Warrior has some very good mobility, nothing compared to Mesmer, Thief or Ranger honestly, but still very good. Surviving against the burst builds means landing your Burst skills and building Adrenal Health stacks so that you can take advantage of the times when you have Endure Pain active, when you use block or when you kite and LoS the enemy around obstacles. You can even heal up some with Might Makes Right paired with Shield Master should you time it right against things like Rapid Fire, Mesmer shatter combos, Hundred Blades, Whirling Defense, Whirling Axe, etc; really any skill that hits multiple times in a short period of time.

    The more you comment on Warrior the more I want to see you perform in a 1v1 or 1vX scenario in-game on the class because you say some weird stuff.

    I play what works for me. If you think it wierd it your problem. You play what works for you. As far as I can tell the difference between you and me is I play three variants of warrior each with a different loadout of weapons traits and skills. In one of them HS works best. In the other two not so much. I do not play one build that rules them all pulled off metabattle.

    Ahhhh it all makes sense now. Anti-meta preacher. Got it.

    Play what you want, all well and good, just do others a favor and don't spread the kind of misinformation that comes with that mindset. It turns into "I can play whatever random nonsense build I concoct in my head and I should be fine". As much as people may want that to be the case...it isn't. The meta builds, and by proxy their variants, work because these things have been tested and put through the grinder. Also "one build that rules them all" not even the case. Effective Warrior builds: dagger-shield/gs Spellbreaker, sword-shield/gs Tetherbreaker, axe-shield/gs core warrior, axe-shield/gs berserker (yes still works but not quite as viable as core). Even among the meta builds it isn't just a single build.

    See here is the thing. I played the very builds you mentioned. I play the typical HS build axe/shield with greatsword and yes HS works very well there. HS does not work so well in other builds I like such as axe/axe. In some builds i prefer to keep pressing an attack rather then go into defense mode and try to rebuild health via ticks on an HS. You play ONE way, that fine but do not presume everyone else must. As to what every one else does, I really could not care less.

    I have killed a whole pile of those HS warriors . I have died to others on my HS warrior.

    See I do not have to know "what everyone else does" .People are free to try any build they wish and yes I have the right to suggest they try something different and do something that they find works for them. I am not here to do YOU a favor so no, I will not stop posting MY opinions just because you do not agree with them. Who do you think you are?

  • XenoSpyro.1780XenoSpyro.1780 Member ✭✭✭

    @Hitman.5829 said:
    Passive healing or not, you get 6880 jimmy.
    The NET TOTAL healing is what counts.

    You people are throwing around the wrong numbers. I don't know why you're using 20s as an arguing point when Mending has been 15s for quite a while now, and is traitable for 12. Your net total per 15s is 5160.

  • babazhook.6805babazhook.6805 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 4, 2018

    @XenoSpyro.1780 said:

    @Hitman.5829 said:
    Passive healing or not, you get 6880 jimmy.
    The NET TOTAL healing is what counts.

    You people are throwing around the wrong numbers. I don't know why you're using 20s as an arguing point when Mending has been 15s for quite a while now, and is traitable for 12. Your net total per 15s is 5160.

    Trait that lower ICD for mending and the heal off the HS over the same period of time (12 seconds) is even lower (4128). Healing 4128 damage over 12 seconds is not a heck of a lot and I really do not see the logic in suggesting that without that 4128 in healing in 12 seconds a warrior with all his other sources of sustain and health pool just can not cut it with a different heal. It seems to me a 3 condition remove and 6520 in heals over the same time is numerically better.

    Added to that HS sees a 1/3 loss to heals when poisoned. Mending in removing the 3 conditions can remove the poison before the heal applied giving mending an even greater edge.

  • Susy.7529Susy.7529 Member ✭✭✭

    I guess ypu mean competitive modes because in PvE is never used on meta build in fractals/raids, only for open world content.

  • KryTiKaL.3125KryTiKaL.3125 Member ✭✭✭

    @babazhook.6805 said:

    @KryTiKaL.3125 said:

    @babazhook.6805 said:

    @KryTiKaL.3125 said:

    @babazhook.6805 said:
    To the limit provides an extra dodge. As example I use in one build via DE thief using rifle , I can quite easily dodge the DJ strikes and heal through the rest via various passives an to the limit when struck. The heal is fat as well . Warrior against a very bursty kiting spec will often find the passive of HS just does not do the job. 1K health per tick is not going to help a heck of a lo of the next hit coming in is unblockable and will do 10K+ when your healt sits at 6k.

    Signet works better in the more drawn out fights where the opponent has less burst/kite ability.

    First off, if you just save your dodges for when the DE uses DJ then you're going to be fine. Running Shield with Shield Master gives you the defense needed against Three Round Burst should the DE use it, the immob can be removed with movement abilities from GS (gs3 and gs5) or with Bull's Charge if you're running Core or Agriope's build with Spellbreaker. Otherwise you can use your dodges to avoid the DJ, you can easily have enough endurance available for them if you save the dodges for that and in dire circumstances you can actively use Endure Pain if Defy Pain passive is on ICD.

    Secondly, Signet is an all around solid choice on Warrior. Sure there are stronger more active heals that can get you more health in a shorter span of time but don't forget that Warrior has some very good mobility, nothing compared to Mesmer, Thief or Ranger honestly, but still very good. Surviving against the burst builds means landing your Burst skills and building Adrenal Health stacks so that you can take advantage of the times when you have Endure Pain active, when you use block or when you kite and LoS the enemy around obstacles. You can even heal up some with Might Makes Right paired with Shield Master should you time it right against things like Rapid Fire, Mesmer shatter combos, Hundred Blades, Whirling Defense, Whirling Axe, etc; really any skill that hits multiple times in a short period of time.

    The more you comment on Warrior the more I want to see you perform in a 1v1 or 1vX scenario in-game on the class because you say some weird stuff.

    I play what works for me. If you think it wierd it your problem. You play what works for you. As far as I can tell the difference between you and me is I play three variants of warrior each with a different loadout of weapons traits and skills. In one of them HS works best. In the other two not so much. I do not play one build that rules them all pulled off metabattle.

    Ahhhh it all makes sense now. Anti-meta preacher. Got it.

    Play what you want, all well and good, just do others a favor and don't spread the kind of misinformation that comes with that mindset. It turns into "I can play whatever random nonsense build I concoct in my head and I should be fine". As much as people may want that to be the case...it isn't. The meta builds, and by proxy their variants, work because these things have been tested and put through the grinder. Also "one build that rules them all" not even the case. Effective Warrior builds: dagger-shield/gs Spellbreaker, sword-shield/gs Tetherbreaker, axe-shield/gs core warrior, axe-shield/gs berserker (yes still works but not quite as viable as core). Even among the meta builds it isn't just a single build.

    See here is the thing. I played the very builds you mentioned. I play the typical HS build axe/shield with greatsword and yes HS works very well there. HS does not work so well in other builds I like such as axe/axe. In some builds i prefer to keep pressing an attack rather then go into defense mode and try to rebuild health via ticks on an HS. You play ONE way, that fine but do not presume everyone else must. As to what every one else does, I really could not care less.

    I have killed a whole pile of those HS warriors . I have died to others on my HS warrior.

    See I do not have to know "what everyone else does" .People are free to try any build they wish and yes I have the right to suggest they try something different and do something that they find works for them. I am not here to do YOU a favor so no, I will not stop posting MY opinions just because you do not agree with them. Who do you think you are?

    You're misinterpreting my meaning. You can express your opinions and play whatever way you want, I have no issue with that. I'm saying that you need to be aware that with the way you present this information and, with your apparent stance on meta builds, that you should rather encourage people to start with the meta to learn their class and then progress into experimentation. I can't count how many people I've run into that pull the "I'm not a meta robot" or "wow you follow the meta, I know better" type of individuals who run into PvP with these inane builds, lose and then whine and complain about something being OP when it is in fact not OP and this all comes from a significant lack of understanding; in short its ignorance. I should have chosen a better way to express what I was trying to get across, but hindsight is 20/20 and I'm tired of running into people who pull the "I know better" kitten and then get kicked around like dirt in PvP. Granted I don't know the extent of how well you perform in PvP with any given class. Which is fine, if you're not the best at PvP thats whatever I could care less, I know I'm not the best in the world, far from it, but I've "taken my lumps" so to speak to get even remotely to where I'm at now and I know I still have much more to improve on.

    You're free to do what you want and express what you want, just be careful how you elaborate on things regarding balance, builds and effectiveness of skills when it comes to the GW2 community. For instance, you said "Warrior against a very bursty kiting spec will often find the passive of HS just does not do the job" and thats rather false. I fight specs like that consistently with Core Warrior using Healing Signet exclusively and typically those bursty moments...do have cooldown periods and are able to either be dodged or defended against in another way. Even avoiding them by avoiding CC is the go to method because they can't necessarily hit you with it sometimes unless you're CC'd. Keep in mind that DE can kite but not as well as typical thief builds due to the fact that it relies so heavily on perma stealth for avoiding damage rather than Shortbow teleport.

  • RedShark.9548RedShark.9548 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Curennos.9307 said:
    Really, they don't look all THAT bad compared to Healing Signet. I'm pretty bamboozled as to why I have never seen any warrior use a different heal - with most other classes there is small variance in heal skill selection, depending, but...Not warrior. HS every single time. The Spellbreaker heal I can understand, sort of, as losing 7 boons is absolutely ridiculous in the current meta - but in most SB vids I see, the player generally has only a couple boons that are easily reapplied anyway (painful to use if you have a Firebrand support spamming on you, but you probably don't need your heal right then, right?)

    But the others don't seem quite so bad, and I've had some issues with the rather hefty cast time on Signet. I get that HS offers more healing overall, but it feels like there's a definite trade off in HS's sustained healing vs the other 'burstier' options.

    Just as an example - I've started fooling around with running Str/Def/SB with MIght Makes Right. The sustained healing from the GM trait that rewards me for staying offensive is quite fun. I can also take the trait that reduces the CD On physical skills - Mending (which also has condi cleanse!) - and gives me a pretty hefty damage bonus. Pretty much everyone runs Defense, too, and the GM trait there includes stances, and we have a Stance heal skill - but I've never seen anyone use that either.

    I also see some other discussion threads on the Warr forum about the other healing skills - just, based on personal experience, I really have never seen any of 'em used.

    If someone could explain to me why HS reigns supreme + compared to the other options, I'd appreciate it. I've decided to try and main Warr for pvp and am trying to have a deeper understanding of the class. Thanks!

    I run mending most of the time, for quite a bit now. Since it has actually higher healing than healing sig (if used on cd), even before the change to a physical skill.
    With lots of boonrips i also dont like resistance anymore, its just meh. Id rather remove that condition BS

    The only downside is that 1sec casttime. Which can be interrupted by good players in crucial moments and also takes up time in which you could have applied pressure to your opponent

  • babazhook.6805babazhook.6805 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @KryTiKaL.3125 said:

    @babazhook.6805 said:

    @KryTiKaL.3125 said:

    @babazhook.6805 said:

    @KryTiKaL.3125 said:

    @babazhook.6805 said:
    To the limit provides an extra dodge. As example I use in one build via DE thief using rifle , I can quite easily dodge the DJ strikes and heal through the rest via various passives an to the limit when struck. The heal is fat as well . Warrior against a very bursty kiting spec will often find the passive of HS just does not do the job. 1K health per tick is not going to help a heck of a lo of the next hit coming in is unblockable and will do 10K+ when your healt sits at 6k.

    Signet works better in the more drawn out fights where the opponent has less burst/kite ability.

    First off, if you just save your dodges for when the DE uses DJ then you're going to be fine. Running Shield with Shield Master gives you the defense needed against Three Round Burst should the DE use it, the immob can be removed with movement abilities from GS (gs3 and gs5) or with Bull's Charge if you're running Core or Agriope's build with Spellbreaker. Otherwise you can use your dodges to avoid the DJ, you can easily have enough endurance available for them if you save the dodges for that and in dire circumstances you can actively use Endure Pain if Defy Pain passive is on ICD.

    Secondly, Signet is an all around solid choice on Warrior. Sure there are stronger more active heals that can get you more health in a shorter span of time but don't forget that Warrior has some very good mobility, nothing compared to Mesmer, Thief or Ranger honestly, but still very good. Surviving against the burst builds means landing your Burst skills and building Adrenal Health stacks so that you can take advantage of the times when you have Endure Pain active, when you use block or when you kite and LoS the enemy around obstacles. You can even heal up some with Might Makes Right paired with Shield Master should you time it right against things like Rapid Fire, Mesmer shatter combos, Hundred Blades, Whirling Defense, Whirling Axe, etc; really any skill that hits multiple times in a short period of time.

    The more you comment on Warrior the more I want to see you perform in a 1v1 or 1vX scenario in-game on the class because you say some weird stuff.

    I play what works for me. If you think it wierd it your problem. You play what works for you. As far as I can tell the difference between you and me is I play three variants of warrior each with a different loadout of weapons traits and skills. In one of them HS works best. In the other two not so much. I do not play one build that rules them all pulled off metabattle.

    Ahhhh it all makes sense now. Anti-meta preacher. Got it.

    Play what you want, all well and good, just do others a favor and don't spread the kind of misinformation that comes with that mindset. It turns into "I can play whatever random nonsense build I concoct in my head and I should be fine". As much as people may want that to be the case...it isn't. The meta builds, and by proxy their variants, work because these things have been tested and put through the grinder. Also "one build that rules them all" not even the case. Effective Warrior builds: dagger-shield/gs Spellbreaker, sword-shield/gs Tetherbreaker, axe-shield/gs core warrior, axe-shield/gs berserker (yes still works but not quite as viable as core). Even among the meta builds it isn't just a single build.

    See here is the thing. I played the very builds you mentioned. I play the typical HS build axe/shield with greatsword and yes HS works very well there. HS does not work so well in other builds I like such as axe/axe. In some builds i prefer to keep pressing an attack rather then go into defense mode and try to rebuild health via ticks on an HS. You play ONE way, that fine but do not presume everyone else must. As to what every one else does, I really could not care less.

    I have killed a whole pile of those HS warriors . I have died to others on my HS warrior.

    See I do not have to know "what everyone else does" .People are free to try any build they wish and yes I have the right to suggest they try something different and do something that they find works for them. I am not here to do YOU a favor so no, I will not stop posting MY opinions just because you do not agree with them. Who do you think you are?

    You're misinterpreting my meaning. You can express your opinions and play whatever way you want, I have no issue with that. I'm saying that you need to be aware that with the way you present this information and, with your apparent stance on meta builds, that you should rather encourage people to start with the meta to learn their class and then progress into experimentation. I can't count how many people I've run into that pull the "I'm not a meta robot" or "wow you follow the meta, I know better" type of individuals who run into PvP with these inane builds, lose and then whine and complain about something being OP when it is in fact not OP and this all comes from a significant lack of understanding; in short its ignorance. I should have chosen a better way to express what I was trying to get across, but hindsight is 20/20 and I'm tired of running into people who pull the "I know better" kitten and then get kicked around like dirt in PvP. Granted I don't know the extent of how well you perform in PvP with any given class. Which is fine, if you're not the best at PvP thats whatever I could care less, I know I'm not the best in the world, far from it, but I've "taken my lumps" so to speak to get even remotely to where I'm at now and I know I still have much more to improve on.

    You're free to do what you want and express what you want, just be careful how you elaborate on things regarding balance, builds and effectiveness of skills when it comes to the GW2 community. For instance, you said "Warrior against a very bursty kiting spec will often find the passive of HS just does not do the job" and thats rather false. I fight specs like that consistently with Core Warrior using Healing Signet exclusively and typically those bursty moments...do have cooldown periods and are able to either be dodged or defended against in another way. Even avoiding them by avoiding CC is the go to method because they can't necessarily hit you with it sometimes unless you're CC'd. Keep in mind that DE can kite but not as well as typical thief builds due to the fact that it relies so heavily on perma stealth for avoiding damage rather than Shortbow teleport.

    I do not think you play DE. DE kites fine. It in fact how the DE can beat most warriors notwithstanding that HS heal. DE has +50 percent speed in stealth and has a teleport on #4. DE rifle does not need SB at all and most take d/p or some other as a second weapon because of this. Stealth for DE costs nothing in the way of INI so they can easily relocate on battlefield and use the port of rifle when need be. That port lays on poison , opens a gap and can gen 2 malice even as it cleanses a condition. Thieves that know the right spots can use it to teleport back and vertically just as they can do with SB. If used in a field it can also stack stealth.

    I am in WvW each and every night and each and every night see warriors trying to run off with their GS mobility or use combinations of blocks and shields to open a gap until their health returns. Ranged classes like rangers LOVE this as the shots from range using just the #1 wll longbow cancel out all the healing that time allowed them. If a single shot is hitting for 3 and 4 k, you are not dodging them all and are not gaining anything with a 350 heal.

    HS is much better suited for melee fights .

  • KryTiKaL.3125KryTiKaL.3125 Member ✭✭✭

    @babazhook.6805 said:

    @KryTiKaL.3125 said:

    @babazhook.6805 said:

    @KryTiKaL.3125 said:

    @babazhook.6805 said:

    @KryTiKaL.3125 said:

    @babazhook.6805 said:
    To the limit provides an extra dodge. As example I use in one build via DE thief using rifle , I can quite easily dodge the DJ strikes and heal through the rest via various passives an to the limit when struck. The heal is fat as well . Warrior against a very bursty kiting spec will often find the passive of HS just does not do the job. 1K health per tick is not going to help a heck of a lo of the next hit coming in is unblockable and will do 10K+ when your healt sits at 6k.

    Signet works better in the more drawn out fights where the opponent has less burst/kite ability.

    First off, if you just save your dodges for when the DE uses DJ then you're going to be fine. Running Shield with Shield Master gives you the defense needed against Three Round Burst should the DE use it, the immob can be removed with movement abilities from GS (gs3 and gs5) or with Bull's Charge if you're running Core or Agriope's build with Spellbreaker. Otherwise you can use your dodges to avoid the DJ, you can easily have enough endurance available for them if you save the dodges for that and in dire circumstances you can actively use Endure Pain if Defy Pain passive is on ICD.

    Secondly, Signet is an all around solid choice on Warrior. Sure there are stronger more active heals that can get you more health in a shorter span of time but don't forget that Warrior has some very good mobility, nothing compared to Mesmer, Thief or Ranger honestly, but still very good. Surviving against the burst builds means landing your Burst skills and building Adrenal Health stacks so that you can take advantage of the times when you have Endure Pain active, when you use block or when you kite and LoS the enemy around obstacles. You can even heal up some with Might Makes Right paired with Shield Master should you time it right against things like Rapid Fire, Mesmer shatter combos, Hundred Blades, Whirling Defense, Whirling Axe, etc; really any skill that hits multiple times in a short period of time.

    The more you comment on Warrior the more I want to see you perform in a 1v1 or 1vX scenario in-game on the class because you say some weird stuff.

    I play what works for me. If you think it wierd it your problem. You play what works for you. As far as I can tell the difference between you and me is I play three variants of warrior each with a different loadout of weapons traits and skills. In one of them HS works best. In the other two not so much. I do not play one build that rules them all pulled off metabattle.

    Ahhhh it all makes sense now. Anti-meta preacher. Got it.

    Play what you want, all well and good, just do others a favor and don't spread the kind of misinformation that comes with that mindset. It turns into "I can play whatever random nonsense build I concoct in my head and I should be fine". As much as people may want that to be the case...it isn't. The meta builds, and by proxy their variants, work because these things have been tested and put through the grinder. Also "one build that rules them all" not even the case. Effective Warrior builds: dagger-shield/gs Spellbreaker, sword-shield/gs Tetherbreaker, axe-shield/gs core warrior, axe-shield/gs berserker (yes still works but not quite as viable as core). Even among the meta builds it isn't just a single build.

    See here is the thing. I played the very builds you mentioned. I play the typical HS build axe/shield with greatsword and yes HS works very well there. HS does not work so well in other builds I like such as axe/axe. In some builds i prefer to keep pressing an attack rather then go into defense mode and try to rebuild health via ticks on an HS. You play ONE way, that fine but do not presume everyone else must. As to what every one else does, I really could not care less.

    I have killed a whole pile of those HS warriors . I have died to others on my HS warrior.

    See I do not have to know "what everyone else does" .People are free to try any build they wish and yes I have the right to suggest they try something different and do something that they find works for them. I am not here to do YOU a favor so no, I will not stop posting MY opinions just because you do not agree with them. Who do you think you are?

    You're misinterpreting my meaning. You can express your opinions and play whatever way you want, I have no issue with that. I'm saying that you need to be aware that with the way you present this information and, with your apparent stance on meta builds, that you should rather encourage people to start with the meta to learn their class and then progress into experimentation. I can't count how many people I've run into that pull the "I'm not a meta robot" or "wow you follow the meta, I know better" type of individuals who run into PvP with these inane builds, lose and then whine and complain about something being OP when it is in fact not OP and this all comes from a significant lack of understanding; in short its ignorance. I should have chosen a better way to express what I was trying to get across, but hindsight is 20/20 and I'm tired of running into people who pull the "I know better" kitten and then get kicked around like dirt in PvP. Granted I don't know the extent of how well you perform in PvP with any given class. Which is fine, if you're not the best at PvP thats whatever I could care less, I know I'm not the best in the world, far from it, but I've "taken my lumps" so to speak to get even remotely to where I'm at now and I know I still have much more to improve on.

    You're free to do what you want and express what you want, just be careful how you elaborate on things regarding balance, builds and effectiveness of skills when it comes to the GW2 community. For instance, you said "Warrior against a very bursty kiting spec will often find the passive of HS just does not do the job" and thats rather false. I fight specs like that consistently with Core Warrior using Healing Signet exclusively and typically those bursty moments...do have cooldown periods and are able to either be dodged or defended against in another way. Even avoiding them by avoiding CC is the go to method because they can't necessarily hit you with it sometimes unless you're CC'd. Keep in mind that DE can kite but not as well as typical thief builds due to the fact that it relies so heavily on perma stealth for avoiding damage rather than Shortbow teleport.

    I do not think you play DE. DE kites fine. It in fact how the DE can beat most warriors notwithstanding that HS heal. DE has +50 percent speed in stealth and has a teleport on #4. DE rifle does not need SB at all and most take d/p or some other as a second weapon because of this. Stealth for DE costs nothing in the way of INI so they can easily relocate on battlefield and use the port of rifle when need be. That port lays on poison , opens a gap and can gen 2 malice even as it cleanses a condition. Thieves that know the right spots can use it to teleport back and vertically just as they can do with SB. If used in a field it can also stack stealth.

    I am in WvW each and every night and each and every night see warriors trying to run off with their GS mobility or use combinations of blocks and shields to open a gap until their health returns. Ranged classes like rangers LOVE this as the shots from range using just the #1 wll longbow cancel out all the healing that time allowed them. If a single shot is hitting for 3 and 4 k, you are not dodging them all and are not gaining anything with a 350 heal.

    HS is much better suited for melee fights .

    @babazhook.6805 said:

    @KryTiKaL.3125 said:

    @babazhook.6805 said:

    @KryTiKaL.3125 said:

    @babazhook.6805 said:

    @KryTiKaL.3125 said:

    @babazhook.6805 said:
    To the limit provides an extra dodge. As example I use in one build via DE thief using rifle , I can quite easily dodge the DJ strikes and heal through the rest via various passives an to the limit when struck. The heal is fat as well . Warrior against a very bursty kiting spec will often find the passive of HS just does not do the job. 1K health per tick is not going to help a heck of a lo of the next hit coming in is unblockable and will do 10K+ when your healt sits at 6k.

    Signet works better in the more drawn out fights where the opponent has less burst/kite ability.

    First off, if you just save your dodges for when the DE uses DJ then you're going to be fine. Running Shield with Shield Master gives you the defense needed against Three Round Burst should the DE use it, the immob can be removed with movement abilities from GS (gs3 and gs5) or with Bull's Charge if you're running Core or Agriope's build with Spellbreaker. Otherwise you can use your dodges to avoid the DJ, you can easily have enough endurance available for them if you save the dodges for that and in dire circumstances you can actively use Endure Pain if Defy Pain passive is on ICD.

    Secondly, Signet is an all around solid choice on Warrior. Sure there are stronger more active heals that can get you more health in a shorter span of time but don't forget that Warrior has some very good mobility, nothing compared to Mesmer, Thief or Ranger honestly, but still very good. Surviving against the burst builds means landing your Burst skills and building Adrenal Health stacks so that you can take advantage of the times when you have Endure Pain active, when you use block or when you kite and LoS the enemy around obstacles. You can even heal up some with Might Makes Right paired with Shield Master should you time it right against things like Rapid Fire, Mesmer shatter combos, Hundred Blades, Whirling Defense, Whirling Axe, etc; really any skill that hits multiple times in a short period of time.

    The more you comment on Warrior the more I want to see you perform in a 1v1 or 1vX scenario in-game on the class because you say some weird stuff.

    I play what works for me. If you think it wierd it your problem. You play what works for you. As far as I can tell the difference between you and me is I play three variants of warrior each with a different loadout of weapons traits and skills. In one of them HS works best. In the other two not so much. I do not play one build that rules them all pulled off metabattle.

    Ahhhh it all makes sense now. Anti-meta preacher. Got it.

    Play what you want, all well and good, just do others a favor and don't spread the kind of misinformation that comes with that mindset. It turns into "I can play whatever random nonsense build I concoct in my head and I should be fine". As much as people may want that to be the case...it isn't. The meta builds, and by proxy their variants, work because these things have been tested and put through the grinder. Also "one build that rules them all" not even the case. Effective Warrior builds: dagger-shield/gs Spellbreaker, sword-shield/gs Tetherbreaker, axe-shield/gs core warrior, axe-shield/gs berserker (yes still works but not quite as viable as core). Even among the meta builds it isn't just a single build.

    See here is the thing. I played the very builds you mentioned. I play the typical HS build axe/shield with greatsword and yes HS works very well there. HS does not work so well in other builds I like such as axe/axe. In some builds i prefer to keep pressing an attack rather then go into defense mode and try to rebuild health via ticks on an HS. You play ONE way, that fine but do not presume everyone else must. As to what every one else does, I really could not care less.

    I have killed a whole pile of those HS warriors . I have died to others on my HS warrior.

    See I do not have to know "what everyone else does" .People are free to try any build they wish and yes I have the right to suggest they try something different and do something that they find works for them. I am not here to do YOU a favor so no, I will not stop posting MY opinions just because you do not agree with them. Who do you think you are?

    You're misinterpreting my meaning. You can express your opinions and play whatever way you want, I have no issue with that. I'm saying that you need to be aware that with the way you present this information and, with your apparent stance on meta builds, that you should rather encourage people to start with the meta to learn their class and then progress into experimentation. I can't count how many people I've run into that pull the "I'm not a meta robot" or "wow you follow the meta, I know better" type of individuals who run into PvP with these inane builds, lose and then whine and complain about something being OP when it is in fact not OP and this all comes from a significant lack of understanding; in short its ignorance. I should have chosen a better way to express what I was trying to get across, but hindsight is 20/20 and I'm tired of running into people who pull the "I know better" kitten and then get kicked around like dirt in PvP. Granted I don't know the extent of how well you perform in PvP with any given class. Which is fine, if you're not the best at PvP thats whatever I could care less, I know I'm not the best in the world, far from it, but I've "taken my lumps" so to speak to get even remotely to where I'm at now and I know I still have much more to improve on.

    You're free to do what you want and express what you want, just be careful how you elaborate on things regarding balance, builds and effectiveness of skills when it comes to the GW2 community. For instance, you said "Warrior against a very bursty kiting spec will often find the passive of HS just does not do the job" and thats rather false. I fight specs like that consistently with Core Warrior using Healing Signet exclusively and typically those bursty moments...do have cooldown periods and are able to either be dodged or defended against in another way. Even avoiding them by avoiding CC is the go to method because they can't necessarily hit you with it sometimes unless you're CC'd. Keep in mind that DE can kite but not as well as typical thief builds due to the fact that it relies so heavily on perma stealth for avoiding damage rather than Shortbow teleport.

    I do not think you play DE. DE kites fine. It in fact how the DE can beat most warriors notwithstanding that HS heal. DE has +50 percent speed in stealth and has a teleport on #4. DE rifle does not need SB at all and most take d/p or some other as a second weapon because of this. Stealth for DE costs nothing in the way of INI so they can easily relocate on battlefield and use the port of rifle when need be. That port lays on poison , opens a gap and can gen 2 malice even as it cleanses a condition. Thieves that know the right spots can use it to teleport back and vertically just as they can do with SB. If used in a field it can also stack stealth.

    I am in WvW each and every night and each and every night see warriors trying to run off with their GS mobility or use combinations of blocks and shields to open a gap until their health returns. Ranged classes like rangers LOVE this as the shots from range using just the #1 wll longbow cancel out all the healing that time allowed them. If a single shot is hitting for 3 and 4 k, you are not dodging them all and are not gaining anything with a 350 heal.

    HS is much better suited for melee fights .

    Thats why the heal is paired with Adrenal Health stacks. Thats why you save certain abilities for appropriate moments, thats why you kite with line of sight or bait them. Save blocks for the rapid fire or Endure Pain for it. Most people don't know what they are doing in PvP, and even the good Rangers that I fight still can't keep distance from me 100% of the time. The 344 heal is an addition to the healing from Adrenal Health heal plus any healing gained from Might when running with Might Makes Right. The only time I get severely out kited by a Ranger is honestly, from recent memory, a single time and this guy was actually very good at his class and even despite that I was still able to close the distance on him several times and land bursts for my sustain.

    I'm always in WvW as well, so I don't see your point there. Its where I spend most of my time ingame. If each and every night you're seeing Warriors get that wrecked against ranged classes then they are not good Warriors, or the Ranger is actually good and fighting terrible Warriors. I've also played DE enough to know that yes its kiting is okay but its nothing near to what Shortbow provides for Core or Daredevil. In fact the primary issue with DE is the perma stealthing, something that needs to get remedied with the class because of how silly Malicious Backstab is. I never said DE kiting was terrible, just that its nothing compared to Core thief or Daredevil kiting with Shortbow or other skills.

    What server are you on where you're seeing that many Warriors getting beat on in such a way?

  • babazhook.6805babazhook.6805 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 5, 2018

    @KryTiKaL.3125 said:

    @babazhook.6805 said:

    @KryTiKaL.3125 said:

    @babazhook.6805 said:

    @KryTiKaL.3125 said:

    @babazhook.6805 said:

    @KryTiKaL.3125 said:

    @babazhook.6805 said:
    To the limit provides an extra dodge. As example I use in one build via DE thief using rifle , I can quite easily dodge the DJ strikes and heal through the rest via various passives an to the limit when struck. The heal is fat as well . Warrior against a very bursty kiting spec will often find the passive of HS just does not do the job. 1K health per tick is not going to help a heck of a lo of the next hit coming in is unblockable and will do 10K+ when your healt sits at 6k.

    Signet works better in the more drawn out fights where the opponent has less burst/kite ability.

    First off, if you just save your dodges for when the DE uses DJ then you're going to be fine. Running Shield with Shield Master gives you the defense needed against Three Round Burst should the DE use it, the immob can be removed with movement abilities from GS (gs3 and gs5) or with Bull's Charge if you're running Core or Agriope's build with Spellbreaker. Otherwise you can use your dodges to avoid the DJ, you can easily have enough endurance available for them if you save the dodges for that and in dire circumstances you can actively use Endure Pain if Defy Pain passive is on ICD.

    Secondly, Signet is an all around solid choice on Warrior. Sure there are stronger more active heals that can get you more health in a shorter span of time but don't forget that Warrior has some very good mobility, nothing compared to Mesmer, Thief or Ranger honestly, but still very good. Surviving against the burst builds means landing your Burst skills and building Adrenal Health stacks so that you can take advantage of the times when you have Endure Pain active, when you use block or when you kite and LoS the enemy around obstacles. You can even heal up some with Might Makes Right paired with Shield Master should you time it right against things like Rapid Fire, Mesmer shatter combos, Hundred Blades, Whirling Defense, Whirling Axe, etc; really any skill that hits multiple times in a short period of time.

    The more you comment on Warrior the more I want to see you perform in a 1v1 or 1vX scenario in-game on the class because you say some weird stuff.

    I play what works for me. If you think it wierd it your problem. You play what works for you. As far as I can tell the difference between you and me is I play three variants of warrior each with a different loadout of weapons traits and skills. In one of them HS works best. In the other two not so much. I do not play one build that rules them all pulled off metabattle.

    Ahhhh it all makes sense now. Anti-meta preacher. Got it.

    Play what you want, all well and good, just do others a favor and don't spread the kind of misinformation that comes with that mindset. It turns into "I can play whatever random nonsense build I concoct in my head and I should be fine". As much as people may want that to be the case...it isn't. The meta builds, and by proxy their variants, work because these things have been tested and put through the grinder. Also "one build that rules them all" not even the case. Effective Warrior builds: dagger-shield/gs Spellbreaker, sword-shield/gs Tetherbreaker, axe-shield/gs core warrior, axe-shield/gs berserker (yes still works but not quite as viable as core). Even among the meta builds it isn't just a single build.

    See here is the thing. I played the very builds you mentioned. I play the typical HS build axe/shield with greatsword and yes HS works very well there. HS does not work so well in other builds I like such as axe/axe. In some builds i prefer to keep pressing an attack rather then go into defense mode and try to rebuild health via ticks on an HS. You play ONE way, that fine but do not presume everyone else must. As to what every one else does, I really could not care less.

    I have killed a whole pile of those HS warriors . I have died to others on my HS warrior.

    See I do not have to know "what everyone else does" .People are free to try any build they wish and yes I have the right to suggest they try something different and do something that they find works for them. I am not here to do YOU a favor so no, I will not stop posting MY opinions just because you do not agree with them. Who do you think you are?

    You're misinterpreting my meaning. You can express your opinions and play whatever way you want, I have no issue with that. I'm saying that you need to be aware that with the way you present this information and, with your apparent stance on meta builds, that you should rather encourage people to start with the meta to learn their class and then progress into experimentation. I can't count how many people I've run into that pull the "I'm not a meta robot" or "wow you follow the meta, I know better" type of individuals who run into PvP with these inane builds, lose and then whine and complain about something being OP when it is in fact not OP and this all comes from a significant lack of understanding; in short its ignorance. I should have chosen a better way to express what I was trying to get across, but hindsight is 20/20 and I'm tired of running into people who pull the "I know better" kitten and then get kicked around like dirt in PvP. Granted I don't know the extent of how well you perform in PvP with any given class. Which is fine, if you're not the best at PvP thats whatever I could care less, I know I'm not the best in the world, far from it, but I've "taken my lumps" so to speak to get even remotely to where I'm at now and I know I still have much more to improve on.

    You're free to do what you want and express what you want, just be careful how you elaborate on things regarding balance, builds and effectiveness of skills when it comes to the GW2 community. For instance, you said "Warrior against a very bursty kiting spec will often find the passive of HS just does not do the job" and thats rather false. I fight specs like that consistently with Core Warrior using Healing Signet exclusively and typically those bursty moments...do have cooldown periods and are able to either be dodged or defended against in another way. Even avoiding them by avoiding CC is the go to method because they can't necessarily hit you with it sometimes unless you're CC'd. Keep in mind that DE can kite but not as well as typical thief builds due to the fact that it relies so heavily on perma stealth for avoiding damage rather than Shortbow teleport.

    I do not think you play DE. DE kites fine. It in fact how the DE can beat most warriors notwithstanding that HS heal. DE has +50 percent speed in stealth and has a teleport on #4. DE rifle does not need SB at all and most take d/p or some other as a second weapon because of this. Stealth for DE costs nothing in the way of INI so they can easily relocate on battlefield and use the port of rifle when need be. That port lays on poison , opens a gap and can gen 2 malice even as it cleanses a condition. Thieves that know the right spots can use it to teleport back and vertically just as they can do with SB. If used in a field it can also stack stealth.

    I am in WvW each and every night and each and every night see warriors trying to run off with their GS mobility or use combinations of blocks and shields to open a gap until their health returns. Ranged classes like rangers LOVE this as the shots from range using just the #1 wll longbow cancel out all the healing that time allowed them. If a single shot is hitting for 3 and 4 k, you are not dodging them all and are not gaining anything with a 350 heal.

    HS is much better suited for melee fights .

    @babazhook.6805 said:

    @KryTiKaL.3125 said:

    @babazhook.6805 said:

    @KryTiKaL.3125 said:

    @babazhook.6805 said:

    @KryTiKaL.3125 said:

    @babazhook.6805 said:
    To the limit provides an extra dodge. As example I use in one build via DE thief using rifle , I can quite easily dodge the DJ strikes and heal through the rest via various passives an to the limit when struck. The heal is fat as well . Warrior against a very bursty kiting spec will often find the passive of HS just does not do the job. 1K health per tick is not going to help a heck of a lo of the next hit coming in is unblockable and will do 10K+ when your healt sits at 6k.

    Signet works better in the more drawn out fights where the opponent has less burst/kite ability.

    First off, if you just save your dodges for when the DE uses DJ then you're going to be fine. Running Shield with Shield Master gives you the defense needed against Three Round Burst should the DE use it, the immob can be removed with movement abilities from GS (gs3 and gs5) or with Bull's Charge if you're running Core or Agriope's build with Spellbreaker. Otherwise you can use your dodges to avoid the DJ, you can easily have enough endurance available for them if you save the dodges for that and in dire circumstances you can actively use Endure Pain if Defy Pain passive is on ICD.

    Secondly, Signet is an all around solid choice on Warrior. Sure there are stronger more active heals that can get you more health in a shorter span of time but don't forget that Warrior has some very good mobility, nothing compared to Mesmer, Thief or Ranger honestly, but still very good. Surviving against the burst builds means landing your Burst skills and building Adrenal Health stacks so that you can take advantage of the times when you have Endure Pain active, when you use block or when you kite and LoS the enemy around obstacles. You can even heal up some with Might Makes Right paired with Shield Master should you time it right against things like Rapid Fire, Mesmer shatter combos, Hundred Blades, Whirling Defense, Whirling Axe, etc; really any skill that hits multiple times in a short period of time.

    The more you comment on Warrior the more I want to see you perform in a 1v1 or 1vX scenario in-game on the class because you say some weird stuff.

    I play what works for me. If you think it wierd it your problem. You play what works for you. As far as I can tell the difference between you and me is I play three variants of warrior each with a different loadout of weapons traits and skills. In one of them HS works best. In the other two not so much. I do not play one build that rules them all pulled off metabattle.

    Ahhhh it all makes sense now. Anti-meta preacher. Got it.

    Play what you want, all well and good, just do others a favor and don't spread the kind of misinformation that comes with that mindset. It turns into "I can play whatever random nonsense build I concoct in my head and I should be fine". As much as people may want that to be the case...it isn't. The meta builds, and by proxy their variants, work because these things have been tested and put through the grinder. Also "one build that rules them all" not even the case. Effective Warrior builds: dagger-shield/gs Spellbreaker, sword-shield/gs Tetherbreaker, axe-shield/gs core warrior, axe-shield/gs berserker (yes still works but not quite as viable as core). Even among the meta builds it isn't just a single build.

    See here is the thing. I played the very builds you mentioned. I play the typical HS build axe/shield with greatsword and yes HS works very well there. HS does not work so well in other builds I like such as axe/axe. In some builds i prefer to keep pressing an attack rather then go into defense mode and try to rebuild health via ticks on an HS. You play ONE way, that fine but do not presume everyone else must. As to what every one else does, I really could not care less.

    I have killed a whole pile of those HS warriors . I have died to others on my HS warrior.

    See I do not have to know "what everyone else does" .People are free to try any build they wish and yes I have the right to suggest they try something different and do something that they find works for them. I am not here to do YOU a favor so no, I will not stop posting MY opinions just because you do not agree with them. Who do you think you are?

    You're misinterpreting my meaning. You can express your opinions and play whatever way you want, I have no issue with that. I'm saying that you need to be aware that with the way you present this information and, with your apparent stance on meta builds, that you should rather encourage people to start with the meta to learn their class and then progress into experimentation. I can't count how many people I've run into that pull the "I'm not a meta robot" or "wow you follow the meta, I know better" type of individuals who run into PvP with these inane builds, lose and then whine and complain about something being OP when it is in fact not OP and this all comes from a significant lack of understanding; in short its ignorance. I should have chosen a better way to express what I was trying to get across, but hindsight is 20/20 and I'm tired of running into people who pull the "I know better" kitten and then get kicked around like dirt in PvP. Granted I don't know the extent of how well you perform in PvP with any given class. Which is fine, if you're not the best at PvP thats whatever I could care less, I know I'm not the best in the world, far from it, but I've "taken my lumps" so to speak to get even remotely to where I'm at now and I know I still have much more to improve on.

    You're free to do what you want and express what you want, just be careful how you elaborate on things regarding balance, builds and effectiveness of skills when it comes to the GW2 community. For instance, you said "Warrior against a very bursty kiting spec will often find the passive of HS just does not do the job" and thats rather false. I fight specs like that consistently with Core Warrior using Healing Signet exclusively and typically those bursty moments...do have cooldown periods and are able to either be dodged or defended against in another way. Even avoiding them by avoiding CC is the go to method because they can't necessarily hit you with it sometimes unless you're CC'd. Keep in mind that DE can kite but not as well as typical thief builds due to the fact that it relies so heavily on perma stealth for avoiding damage rather than Shortbow teleport.

    I do not think you play DE. DE kites fine. It in fact how the DE can beat most warriors notwithstanding that HS heal. DE has +50 percent speed in stealth and has a teleport on #4. DE rifle does not need SB at all and most take d/p or some other as a second weapon because of this. Stealth for DE costs nothing in the way of INI so they can easily relocate on battlefield and use the port of rifle when need be. That port lays on poison , opens a gap and can gen 2 malice even as it cleanses a condition. Thieves that know the right spots can use it to teleport back and vertically just as they can do with SB. If used in a field it can also stack stealth.

    I am in WvW each and every night and each and every night see warriors trying to run off with their GS mobility or use combinations of blocks and shields to open a gap until their health returns. Ranged classes like rangers LOVE this as the shots from range using just the #1 wll longbow cancel out all the healing that time allowed them. If a single shot is hitting for 3 and 4 k, you are not dodging them all and are not gaining anything with a 350 heal.

    HS is much better suited for melee fights .

    Thats why the heal is paired with Adrenal Health stacks. Thats why you save certain abilities for appropriate moments, thats why you kite with line of sight or bait them. Save blocks for the rapid fire or Endure Pain for it. Most people don't know what they are doing in PvP, and even the good Rangers that I fight still can't keep distance from me 100% of the time. The 344 heal is an addition to the healing from Adrenal Health heal plus any healing gained from Might when running with Might Makes Right. The only time I get severely out kited by a Ranger is honestly, from recent memory, a single time and this guy was actually very good at his class and even despite that I was still able to close the distance on him several times and land bursts for my sustain.

    I'm always in WvW as well, so I don't see your point there. Its where I spend most of my time ingame. If each and every night you're seeing Warriors get that wrecked against ranged classes then they are not good Warriors, or the Ranger is actually good and fighting terrible Warriors. I've also played DE enough to know that yes its kiting is okay but its nothing near to what Shortbow provides for Core or Daredevil. In fact the primary issue with DE is the perma stealthing, something that needs to get remedied with the class because of how silly Malicious Backstab is. I never said DE kiting was terrible, just that its nothing compared to Core thief or Daredevil kiting with Shortbow or other skills.

    What server are you on where you're seeing that many Warriors getting beat on in such a way?

    HS is much like SOM on thief. SOM is a poor heal unless it bundled up with other heal skills and or in a weapon set that can attack multiple targets. Take that away it it subpar. HS is generally linked to Adrenal, sun and moon might makes right and other such ongoing heals which all depend on being at melee. If range maintained by DE or ranger all they face as a heal is 355 per second. . DE rifle has more ways of opening a gap than warrior has of closing one and any DE that knows what he is doing will be able to avoid a warrior getting burst off. When the warrior can not get his burst off Adrenal is of no use.

    As to baiting , LOS and the like, while valid tactics these totally depend on the skill level of the player you face. If he does not want to take the bait, he is not going to be baited. If this your strategy you relying on what the other player does more then what you can do.

    HS is also subpar when it comes to being inflicted with poison as it an all but permanent reduction in heal skills. Thief in particular has lots of poison access.If a Warrior cleanses thiefcan reapply in short order. This cripples both adrenal and HS passives much more then it does the active heals simply because those larger fatter heals are easier to time for when you manage to get the poison off you. If I am needing heal and got poison on, weapon swap for cleanse , wipe off poison and heal. Do the same with a build reliant on HS and adrenal you might get 2 or three ticks no poison then it on you again.

    In another thread you called for the nerfing of Runes of Tormenting because you felt the heal they provided too much when used by Condition builds. You complain here about Malicious backstab and wanting to see stealth nerfed. Have you every considered that if you are fighting something like a Condition mesmer who kills you because he can outheal your own sources of heals that you MIGHT want to consider a better heal and you might want to consider one that comes with Cleanse built in?

    If a malicious backstab is outputing more damage then you can manage to deal with MAYBE it because a 355 per tick heal just can NOT deal with it and anothe rbetter suited?

    As to which server I am on why on earth would that matter. The warriors I see dying are on the servers I am facing.

  • KryTiKaL.3125KryTiKaL.3125 Member ✭✭✭

    @babazhook.6805 said:

    @KryTiKaL.3125 said:

    @babazhook.6805 said:

    @KryTiKaL.3125 said:

    @babazhook.6805 said:

    @KryTiKaL.3125 said:

    @babazhook.6805 said:

    @KryTiKaL.3125 said:

    @babazhook.6805 said:
    To the limit provides an extra dodge. As example I use in one build via DE thief using rifle , I can quite easily dodge the DJ strikes and heal through the rest via various passives an to the limit when struck. The heal is fat as well . Warrior against a very bursty kiting spec will often find the passive of HS just does not do the job. 1K health per tick is not going to help a heck of a lo of the next hit coming in is unblockable and will do 10K+ when your healt sits at 6k.

    Signet works better in the more drawn out fights where the opponent has less burst/kite ability.

    First off, if you just save your dodges for when the DE uses DJ then you're going to be fine. Running Shield with Shield Master gives you the defense needed against Three Round Burst should the DE use it, the immob can be removed with movement abilities from GS (gs3 and gs5) or with Bull's Charge if you're running Core or Agriope's build with Spellbreaker. Otherwise you can use your dodges to avoid the DJ, you can easily have enough endurance available for them if you save the dodges for that and in dire circumstances you can actively use Endure Pain if Defy Pain passive is on ICD.

    Secondly, Signet is an all around solid choice on Warrior. Sure there are stronger more active heals that can get you more health in a shorter span of time but don't forget that Warrior has some very good mobility, nothing compared to Mesmer, Thief or Ranger honestly, but still very good. Surviving against the burst builds means landing your Burst skills and building Adrenal Health stacks so that you can take advantage of the times when you have Endure Pain active, when you use block or when you kite and LoS the enemy around obstacles. You can even heal up some with Might Makes Right paired with Shield Master should you time it right against things like Rapid Fire, Mesmer shatter combos, Hundred Blades, Whirling Defense, Whirling Axe, etc; really any skill that hits multiple times in a short period of time.

    The more you comment on Warrior the more I want to see you perform in a 1v1 or 1vX scenario in-game on the class because you say some weird stuff.

    I play what works for me. If you think it wierd it your problem. You play what works for you. As far as I can tell the difference between you and me is I play three variants of warrior each with a different loadout of weapons traits and skills. In one of them HS works best. In the other two not so much. I do not play one build that rules them all pulled off metabattle.

    Ahhhh it all makes sense now. Anti-meta preacher. Got it.

    Play what you want, all well and good, just do others a favor and don't spread the kind of misinformation that comes with that mindset. It turns into "I can play whatever random nonsense build I concoct in my head and I should be fine". As much as people may want that to be the case...it isn't. The meta builds, and by proxy their variants, work because these things have been tested and put through the grinder. Also "one build that rules them all" not even the case. Effective Warrior builds: dagger-shield/gs Spellbreaker, sword-shield/gs Tetherbreaker, axe-shield/gs core warrior, axe-shield/gs berserker (yes still works but not quite as viable as core). Even among the meta builds it isn't just a single build.

    See here is the thing. I played the very builds you mentioned. I play the typical HS build axe/shield with greatsword and yes HS works very well there. HS does not work so well in other builds I like such as axe/axe. In some builds i prefer to keep pressing an attack rather then go into defense mode and try to rebuild health via ticks on an HS. You play ONE way, that fine but do not presume everyone else must. As to what every one else does, I really could not care less.

    I have killed a whole pile of those HS warriors . I have died to others on my HS warrior.

    See I do not have to know "what everyone else does" .People are free to try any build they wish and yes I have the right to suggest they try something different and do something that they find works for them. I am not here to do YOU a favor so no, I will not stop posting MY opinions just because you do not agree with them. Who do you think you are?

    You're misinterpreting my meaning. You can express your opinions and play whatever way you want, I have no issue with that. I'm saying that you need to be aware that with the way you present this information and, with your apparent stance on meta builds, that you should rather encourage people to start with the meta to learn their class and then progress into experimentation. I can't count how many people I've run into that pull the "I'm not a meta robot" or "wow you follow the meta, I know better" type of individuals who run into PvP with these inane builds, lose and then whine and complain about something being OP when it is in fact not OP and this all comes from a significant lack of understanding; in short its ignorance. I should have chosen a better way to express what I was trying to get across, but hindsight is 20/20 and I'm tired of running into people who pull the "I know better" kitten and then get kicked around like dirt in PvP. Granted I don't know the extent of how well you perform in PvP with any given class. Which is fine, if you're not the best at PvP thats whatever I could care less, I know I'm not the best in the world, far from it, but I've "taken my lumps" so to speak to get even remotely to where I'm at now and I know I still have much more to improve on.

    You're free to do what you want and express what you want, just be careful how you elaborate on things regarding balance, builds and effectiveness of skills when it comes to the GW2 community. For instance, you said "Warrior against a very bursty kiting spec will often find the passive of HS just does not do the job" and thats rather false. I fight specs like that consistently with Core Warrior using Healing Signet exclusively and typically those bursty moments...do have cooldown periods and are able to either be dodged or defended against in another way. Even avoiding them by avoiding CC is the go to method because they can't necessarily hit you with it sometimes unless you're CC'd. Keep in mind that DE can kite but not as well as typical thief builds due to the fact that it relies so heavily on perma stealth for avoiding damage rather than Shortbow teleport.

    I do not think you play DE. DE kites fine. It in fact how the DE can beat most warriors notwithstanding that HS heal. DE has +50 percent speed in stealth and has a teleport on #4. DE rifle does not need SB at all and most take d/p or some other as a second weapon because of this. Stealth for DE costs nothing in the way of INI so they can easily relocate on battlefield and use the port of rifle when need be. That port lays on poison , opens a gap and can gen 2 malice even as it cleanses a condition. Thieves that know the right spots can use it to teleport back and vertically just as they can do with SB. If used in a field it can also stack stealth.

    I am in WvW each and every night and each and every night see warriors trying to run off with their GS mobility or use combinations of blocks and shields to open a gap until their health returns. Ranged classes like rangers LOVE this as the shots from range using just the #1 wll longbow cancel out all the healing that time allowed them. If a single shot is hitting for 3 and 4 k, you are not dodging them all and are not gaining anything with a 350 heal.

    HS is much better suited for melee fights .

    @babazhook.6805 said:

    @KryTiKaL.3125 said:

    @babazhook.6805 said:

    @KryTiKaL.3125 said:

    @babazhook.6805 said:

    @KryTiKaL.3125 said:

    @babazhook.6805 said:
    To the limit provides an extra dodge. As example I use in one build via DE thief using rifle , I can quite easily dodge the DJ strikes and heal through the rest via various passives an to the limit when struck. The heal is fat as well . Warrior against a very bursty kiting spec will often find the passive of HS just does not do the job. 1K health per tick is not going to help a heck of a lo of the next hit coming in is unblockable and will do 10K+ when your healt sits at 6k.

    Signet works better in the more drawn out fights where the opponent has less burst/kite ability.

    First off, if you just save your dodges for when the DE uses DJ then you're going to be fine. Running Shield with Shield Master gives you the defense needed against Three Round Burst should the DE use it, the immob can be removed with movement abilities from GS (gs3 and gs5) or with Bull's Charge if you're running Core or Agriope's build with Spellbreaker. Otherwise you can use your dodges to avoid the DJ, you can easily have enough endurance available for them if you save the dodges for that and in dire circumstances you can actively use Endure Pain if Defy Pain passive is on ICD.

    Secondly, Signet is an all around solid choice on Warrior. Sure there are stronger more active heals that can get you more health in a shorter span of time but don't forget that Warrior has some very good mobility, nothing compared to Mesmer, Thief or Ranger honestly, but still very good. Surviving against the burst builds means landing your Burst skills and building Adrenal Health stacks so that you can take advantage of the times when you have Endure Pain active, when you use block or when you kite and LoS the enemy around obstacles. You can even heal up some with Might Makes Right paired with Shield Master should you time it right against things like Rapid Fire, Mesmer shatter combos, Hundred Blades, Whirling Defense, Whirling Axe, etc; really any skill that hits multiple times in a short period of time.

    The more you comment on Warrior the more I want to see you perform in a 1v1 or 1vX scenario in-game on the class because you say some weird stuff.

    I play what works for me. If you think it wierd it your problem. You play what works for you. As far as I can tell the difference between you and me is I play three variants of warrior each with a different loadout of weapons traits and skills. In one of them HS works best. In the other two not so much. I do not play one build that rules them all pulled off metabattle.

    Ahhhh it all makes sense now. Anti-meta preacher. Got it.

    Play what you want, all well and good, just do others a favor and don't spread the kind of misinformation that comes with that mindset. It turns into "I can play whatever random nonsense build I concoct in my head and I should be fine". As much as people may want that to be the case...it isn't. The meta builds, and by proxy their variants, work because these things have been tested and put through the grinder. Also "one build that rules them all" not even the case. Effective Warrior builds: dagger-shield/gs Spellbreaker, sword-shield/gs Tetherbreaker, axe-shield/gs core warrior, axe-shield/gs berserker (yes still works but not quite as viable as core). Even among the meta builds it isn't just a single build.

    See here is the thing. I played the very builds you mentioned. I play the typical HS build axe/shield with greatsword and yes HS works very well there. HS does not work so well in other builds I like such as axe/axe. In some builds i prefer to keep pressing an attack rather then go into defense mode and try to rebuild health via ticks on an HS. You play ONE way, that fine but do not presume everyone else must. As to what every one else does, I really could not care less.

    I have killed a whole pile of those HS warriors . I have died to others on my HS warrior.

    See I do not have to know "what everyone else does" .People are free to try any build they wish and yes I have the right to suggest they try something different and do something that they find works for them. I am not here to do YOU a favor so no, I will not stop posting MY opinions just because you do not agree with them. Who do you think you are?

    You're misinterpreting my meaning. You can express your opinions and play whatever way you want, I have no issue with that. I'm saying that you need to be aware that with the way you present this information and, with your apparent stance on meta builds, that you should rather encourage people to start with the meta to learn their class and then progress into experimentation. I can't count how many people I've run into that pull the "I'm not a meta robot" or "wow you follow the meta, I know better" type of individuals who run into PvP with these inane builds, lose and then whine and complain about something being OP when it is in fact not OP and this all comes from a significant lack of understanding; in short its ignorance. I should have chosen a better way to express what I was trying to get across, but hindsight is 20/20 and I'm tired of running into people who pull the "I know better" kitten and then get kicked around like dirt in PvP. Granted I don't know the extent of how well you perform in PvP with any given class. Which is fine, if you're not the best at PvP thats whatever I could care less, I know I'm not the best in the world, far from it, but I've "taken my lumps" so to speak to get even remotely to where I'm at now and I know I still have much more to improve on.

    You're free to do what you want and express what you want, just be careful how you elaborate on things regarding balance, builds and effectiveness of skills when it comes to the GW2 community. For instance, you said "Warrior against a very bursty kiting spec will often find the passive of HS just does not do the job" and thats rather false. I fight specs like that consistently with Core Warrior using Healing Signet exclusively and typically those bursty moments...do have cooldown periods and are able to either be dodged or defended against in another way. Even avoiding them by avoiding CC is the go to method because they can't necessarily hit you with it sometimes unless you're CC'd. Keep in mind that DE can kite but not as well as typical thief builds due to the fact that it relies so heavily on perma stealth for avoiding damage rather than Shortbow teleport.

    I do not think you play DE. DE kites fine. It in fact how the DE can beat most warriors notwithstanding that HS heal. DE has +50 percent speed in stealth and has a teleport on #4. DE rifle does not need SB at all and most take d/p or some other as a second weapon because of this. Stealth for DE costs nothing in the way of INI so they can easily relocate on battlefield and use the port of rifle when need be. That port lays on poison , opens a gap and can gen 2 malice even as it cleanses a condition. Thieves that know the right spots can use it to teleport back and vertically just as they can do with SB. If used in a field it can also stack stealth.

    I am in WvW each and every night and each and every night see warriors trying to run off with their GS mobility or use combinations of blocks and shields to open a gap until their health returns. Ranged classes like rangers LOVE this as the shots from range using just the #1 wll longbow cancel out all the healing that time allowed them. If a single shot is hitting for 3 and 4 k, you are not dodging them all and are not gaining anything with a 350 heal.

    HS is much better suited for melee fights .

    Thats why the heal is paired with Adrenal Health stacks. Thats why you save certain abilities for appropriate moments, thats why you kite with line of sight or bait them. Save blocks for the rapid fire or Endure Pain for it. Most people don't know what they are doing in PvP, and even the good Rangers that I fight still can't keep distance from me 100% of the time. The 344 heal is an addition to the healing from Adrenal Health heal plus any healing gained from Might when running with Might Makes Right. The only time I get severely out kited by a Ranger is honestly, from recent memory, a single time and this guy was actually very good at his class and even despite that I was still able to close the distance on him several times and land bursts for my sustain.

    I'm always in WvW as well, so I don't see your point there. Its where I spend most of my time ingame. If each and every night you're seeing Warriors get that wrecked against ranged classes then they are not good Warriors, or the Ranger is actually good and fighting terrible Warriors. I've also played DE enough to know that yes its kiting is okay but its nothing near to what Shortbow provides for Core or Daredevil. In fact the primary issue with DE is the perma stealthing, something that needs to get remedied with the class because of how silly Malicious Backstab is. I never said DE kiting was terrible, just that its nothing compared to Core thief or Daredevil kiting with Shortbow or other skills.

    What server are you on where you're seeing that many Warriors getting beat on in such a way?

    HS is much like SOM on thief. SOM is a poor heal unless it bundled up with other heal skills and or in a weapon set that can attack multiple targets. Take that away it it subpar. HS is generally linked to Adrenal, sun and moon might makes right and other such ongoing heals which all depend on being at melee. If range maintained by DE or ranger all they face as a heal is 355 per second. . DE rifle has more ways of opening a gap than warrior has of closing one and any DE that knows what he is doing will be able to avoid a warrior getting burst off. When the warrior can not get his burst off Adrenal is of no use.

    As to baiting , LOS and the like, while valid tactics these totally depend on the skill level of the player you face. If he does not want to take the bait, he is not going to be baited. If this your strategy you relying on what the other player does more then what you can do.

    HS is also subpar when it comes to being inflicted with poison as it an all but permanent reduction in heal skills. Thief in particular has lots of poison access.If a Warrior cleanses thiefcan reapply in short order. This cripples both adrenal and HS passives much more then it does the active heals simply because those larger fatter heals are easier to time for when you manage to get the poison off you. If I am needing heal and got poison on, weapon swap for cleanse , wipe off poison and heal. Do the same with a build reliant on HS and adrenal you might get 2 or three ticks no poison then it on you again.

    In another thread you called for the nerfing of Runes of Tormenting because you felt the heal they provided too much when used by Condition builds. You complain here about Malicious backstab and wanting to see stealth nerfed. Have you every considered that if you are fighting something like a Condition mesmer who kills you because he can outheal your own sources of heals that you MIGHT want to consider a better heal and you might want to consider one that comes with Cleanse built in?

    If a malicious backstab is outputing more damage then you can manage to deal with MAYBE it because a 355 per tick heal just can NOT deal with it and anothe rbetter suited?

    As to which server I am on why on earth would that matter. The warriors I see dying are on the servers I am facing.

    Except that is why Healing Signet is used most often because Warrior's best sustain comes from Healing Signet and Adrenal health. These things are near mandatory on most Warrior builds with the exception of the Tetherbreaker build for sPvP that uses Discipline, Strength and Spellbreaker. Sun and Moon isn't a strong enough heal to pair with anything, even if combined with other passive heals. You're not wrong on if the DE knows what they are doing they can avoid the Warrior burst skills, thankfully most don't but also that is true for literally any class including ones that fight Warrior at melee range. If they Block, dodge, evade, invuln or blind the burst skill then yes the Warrior does not get their Adrenal Health stack. This is exactly why Warrior is probably one of the more balanced classes right now because the skills it uses are so highly telegraphed it can make things difficult for them against more skilled players.

    Baiting and LoS tactics are also dependent on your own ability as well as a player, not everyone knows to do these things and I see that many don't. In fact baiting and tricking your opponent is one of the best ways for a Warrior to land one of their burst skills against a skilled player, how does that not translate into it being a part of your own ability in PvP?

    Yes Poison can dampen passive heals and thieves can frequently apply it. I only run into this as an issue when running into condi thieves, but even then as a Core Warrior I've still had enough cleanses/resistance available to be able to handle it and still kill the thief. Also counting dodges and blocks. Yes in another thread I did call for a change to Rune of Tormenting because of the heals when used by Condition builds because kitten was bugged and healed the user when any condition was applied not just Torment.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Game_updates/2018-11-15

    "Rune of Tormenting: Fixed a bug that allowed conditions other than torment to trigger healing."

    As for Malicious Backstab yes something needs to be done about it because there is a build that exists that can just put out an 18k+ Malicious Backstab and all the DE needs to do is mark you, poke at you with skills that cost initiative and just simply stay perma stealthed of which they can do easily until they have full Malice and then they just keep tapping you for 18k+ when you can't even see it coming. The cast time on the skill is 1/4 of a second and you do not get revealed out of stealth until the skill hits. Even if someone used To The Limit or Mending its not going to contend with that. The only way around it is using a Target Painter in WvW because DE can cleanse the Revealed status and not the Marked status. The Silent Scope trait getting an ICD would help fix this immensely, or adding a similar windup time to Malicious Backstab that Death's Judgment has. Or both. I'd advocate for both, just like I'd advocate for Anet to do something about the oneshot soulbeasts as well.

    I have fought Condi mesmers before, using a cleanse heal could be a way around them a bit more, sure, except Healing Signet also comes with Resistance when used if needed in a dire situation and also one of the better ways to combat mesmers is to keep the field as clear of their illusions as possible. In fact using Arcing Slice, gs burst skill, on the illusions themselves is a way to maintain Adrenal Health stacks and I do it often. This actually gets complicated when going up against condi Mirages however since more and more of them are starting to run Infinite Horizons. You can still try to clear the illusions but its much more difficult when that trait is in play, you have to time around not only the Mirage evading but also the clones evading.

    See this is the point where honestly I think you and me need to 1v1 or something in the actual game where you can maybe apply this theorycrafting of yours into actual gameplay. You're saying all these things and yet in actual practice in the game itself they don't hold up, which is yes purely based off of my own experiences in the game. You're not entirely wrong on some accounts, your understanding is solid in a theory perspective, however in practical application they become nearly purely circumstantial.

  • Miko.4158Miko.4158 Member ✭✭✭

    playstyles,
    pvp I reckon defiant stance works better kiting is an issue anyway , but well timed defiant stance is awesome.
    in wvw , its to short, to long cd....to many attacks to pick 'one'
    I take signet , given the long length, lower burn condi craziness, I'm still covered with some post resistance pop, which is what I'm focussing in, on my defensive timings.
    -the passive genuinely helps on the small stuff, if you've not got loads of health left its a blessing,.
    The active is nice, but without the pulse its stripped to quick.
    (sames goes for featherfoot grace).
    I'm guessing 99% warriors go zerker stance, -healing signet is just the roll for the sausage.
    waah passive play blah blah blah warrior no fair has done the rounds loads of times, its a favorite teef whinge
    goodness knows why we carry about all the armor, ( maybe we should be able to make it disappear)
    I get fried in it constantly anyway.
    If I could paint it with white and red stripes, and label it joko fired chicken I would,.

  • borgs.6103borgs.6103 Member ✭✭✭

    Because save for being stunned, whatever you're doing - Healing Signet is healing you.

    Hi.

  • Spartacus.3192Spartacus.3192 Member ✭✭✭

    The best things about healing signet is that
    1. it "activates" as soon as you take any damage whether its 1hp or 5k hp.
    2. Point 1 is important because other skills may have "theoretical" heals of more HP per sec But that assumes you utilize it on cooldown and you have taken enough damage to use all of the heal. Heal signet is most efficient. It heals as soon as you take damage and stops when you are at full HP.
    2. You dont have to do anything (passive)
    3. benefit of passive is that you can do other actions like attack/defend/kite while healing
    3. It can never EVER be interrupted. (this IMO is a big benefit)

  • I think the main two reasons why people still prefer healing signet over mending when running strength is:
    1. Mending's cast time is long enough where it is very easily interrupted by good players and the common strength/disp/spb warrior has very limited access to stability prior to healing.
    2. Often when you need an emergency condi cleanse and use your healing, the 6s of resistance is typically more beneficial than the 3 condi clear.

    If mending cast time was brought down to 0.5s or maybe even 0.75s i think you'd see it played more.
    Healing signet also pairs very well with the strength warrior due to its evasiveness. As you are dodging, use G3, using leaps on sword, you are constantly being healed/re-sustained as opposed to waiting for a cooldown that can be interrupted.

    This is coming from a conquest perspective btw, maybe in 2v2s you'd run mending but not sure. 1v1s mending is solid as you have a lower chance of being interrupted.

    The warrior signet heal is also semi unique in that it has no "do X to get the heal" on its passive, it just happens.

  • babazhook.6805babazhook.6805 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 6, 2018

    @ButterPeanut.9746 said:
    I think the main two reasons why people still prefer healing signet over mending when running strength is:
    1. Mending's cast time is long enough where it is very easily interrupted by good players and the common strength/disp/spb warrior has very limited access to stability prior to healing.
    2. Often when you need an emergency condi cleanse and use your healing, the 6s of resistance is typically more beneficial than the 3 condi clear.

    If mending cast time was brought down to 0.5s or maybe even 0.75s i think you'd see it played more.
    Healing signet also pairs very well with the strength warrior due to its evasiveness. As you are dodging, use G3, using leaps on sword, you are constantly being healed/re-sustained as opposed to waiting for a cooldown that can be interrupted.

    This is coming from a conquest perspective btw, maybe in 2v2s you'd run mending but not sure. 1v1s mending is solid as you have a lower chance of being interrupted.

    The warrior signet heal is also semi unique in that it has no "do X to get the heal" on its passive, it just happens.

    In other words , it easier. I tend to play thief more then any other build and because withdraw can not be interrupted it one of the favored heals among thieves. That does not make it the BEST heal. It just means you have one less thing to worry about when you need to heal up. There are many thief builds that use other heals (in particular channled vigor). Thief does not have stability or blocks meaning Channled vigor easier to interrupt. Those using CV play around that buy utilizing other skills to ensure the heal not interrupted. More difficult, yes, but there is a payoff.

    I would also point out the Active of HS has one of the longest cast times of any Warrior heal.

    As to the the fact HS activates no matter what given it a passive, there also a downside to this. As mentioned before this means poison on a warrior is also always actively inhibiting a heal each and every second with one single stack. When I am on thief facing warrior using HS my poison even in a power build is more effective then facing a warrior using an alternate heal. That poison does not have to be on 100 percent of the time either. if I have it applied 50 percent of the time against a warrior relying on passive heals (adrenal , HS) then 50 percent of the time those heals effectivness cut by a third. So while it in fact easier not having to worry about activating a passive because it always on , it also easier for the enemy to compromise that heal.

  • babazhook.6805babazhook.6805 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 6, 2018

    Yes Poison can dampen passive heals and thieves can frequently apply it. I only run into this as an issue when running into condi thieves, but even then as a Core Warrior I've still had enough cleanses/resistance available to be able to handle it and still kill the thief. Also counting dodges and blocks. Yes in another thread I did call for a change to Rune of Tormenting because of the heals when used by Condition builds because kitten was bugged and healed the user when any condition was applied not just Torment.

    The thread on rune of tormenting made it very clear that people were aware of the BUG from the start and I in fact mentioned that the seeming OP nature of Torment was based on that bug and that when it addressed the rune would be fine. I do not recall you stating that it OP because of that bug.

  • Azure The Heartless.3261Azure The Heartless.3261 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 6, 2018

    Healing signet is played because mending and To The Limit get interrupted, defiant stance requires people to hit you for heals, and nobody runs persistent poison builds.

    [Charr Noises]
    [Plays every class]
    [JUST GIT EVEN GUDDER ITS FINE]

  • KryTiKaL.3125KryTiKaL.3125 Member ✭✭✭

    @babazhook.6805 said:

    Yes Poison can dampen passive heals and thieves can frequently apply it. I only run into this as an issue when running into condi thieves, but even then as a Core Warrior I've still had enough cleanses/resistance available to be able to handle it and still kill the thief. Also counting dodges and blocks. Yes in another thread I did call for a change to Rune of Tormenting because of the heals when used by Condition builds because kitten was bugged and healed the user when any condition was applied not just Torment.

    The thread on rune of tormenting made it very clear that people were aware of the BUG from the start and I in fact mentioned that the seeming OP nature of Torment was based on that bug and that when it addressed the rune would be fine. I do not recall you stating that it OP because of that bug.

    ...Right thats what I said. I said they needed to fix the bug, the bug got fixed. No problems now.

    @babazhook.6805 said:

    @ButterPeanut.9746 said:
    I think the main two reasons why people still prefer healing signet over mending when running strength is:
    1. Mending's cast time is long enough where it is very easily interrupted by good players and the common strength/disp/spb warrior has very limited access to stability prior to healing.
    2. Often when you need an emergency condi cleanse and use your healing, the 6s of resistance is typically more beneficial than the 3 condi clear.

    If mending cast time was brought down to 0.5s or maybe even 0.75s i think you'd see it played more.
    Healing signet also pairs very well with the strength warrior due to its evasiveness. As you are dodging, use G3, using leaps on sword, you are constantly being healed/re-sustained as opposed to waiting for a cooldown that can be interrupted.

    This is coming from a conquest perspective btw, maybe in 2v2s you'd run mending but not sure. 1v1s mending is solid as you have a lower chance of being interrupted.

    The warrior signet heal is also semi unique in that it has no "do X to get the heal" on its passive, it just happens.

    In other words , it easier. I tend to play thief more then any other build and because withdraw can not be interrupted it one of the favored heals among thieves. That does not make it the BEST heal. It just means you have one less thing to worry about when you need to heal up. There are many thief builds that use other heals (in particular channled vigor). Thief does not have stability or blocks meaning Channled vigor easier to interrupt. Those using CV play around that buy utilizing other skills to ensure the heal not interrupted. More difficult, yes, but there is a payoff.

    I would also point out the Active of HS has one of the longest cast times of any Warrior heal.

    As to the the fact HS activates no matter what given it a passive, there also a downside to this. As mentioned before this means poison on a warrior is also always actively inhibiting a heal each and every second with one single stack. When I am on thief facing warrior using HS my poison even in a power build is more effective then facing a warrior using an alternate heal. That poison does not have to be on 100 percent of the time either. if I have it applied 50 percent of the time against a warrior relying on passive heals (adrenal , HS) then 50 percent of the time those heals effectivness cut by a third. So while it in fact easier not having to worry about activating a passive because it always on , it also easier for the enemy to compromise that heal.

    For starters, yes in other words its "easier" in the same way that its "easier" to heal with Withdrawal on Thief, in the same way that its easier to heal with Shelter on Guardian, easier to heal with Glint heal on Revenant, easier to heal more when using Monk's Focus on Guardian, and so on. Now see the logic you're applying here to thief, in the vein that Thieves use other skills to ensure the heal is not interrupted you can apply to Warriors using other skills to give Healing Signet an opportunity to heal you for a bit. For instance, Shield Stance block Duration is 3 seconds, pair that with an immediate swap into greatsword after the block to cast greatsword 3 and you have had at least 4 seconds of healing from Healing Signet, it ticks every 1 second. Thats 344 x 4 = 1,376. Also taking into account kiting, or using line of sight, or other skills the Warrior has available and you are healing for even more. Now pair that with Adrenal Health and the passive health regeneration is very strong. The other heal skills on Warrior are useful in certain circumstances, Mending can help sometimes and To The Limit is a beefy heal with a relatively short CD, but despite that Healing Signet is still the most solid choice for Warrior because of the utilities it has available to it.

    As someone else said as well, poison is a factor but its not nearly active enough to warrant swapping Healing Signet out for Mending in general circumstances. In a 1v1 vs a condi thief that is kiting a lot and just applying poison, sure that would be a situation where Mending could be used over Healing Signet. However I've run into that before and the players I've faced that have done that didn't force me into swapping out Healing Signet for Mending. I could have and then maybe would have had an easier time dealing with them, but I still didn't feel it was necessary.

    You're even saying yourself that you play thief more than any other so I have to question your ability to actually implement your theory over the actual theory itself. In theory maybe it sounds right in your head, but in practice people are trying to tell you that its not entirely accurate and its circumstantial at best.

  • babazhook.6805babazhook.6805 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 8, 2018

    @KryTiKaL.3125 said:

    @babazhook.6805 said:

    Yes Poison can dampen passive heals and thieves can frequently apply it. I only run into this as an issue when running into condi thieves, but even then as a Core Warrior I've still had enough cleanses/resistance available to be able to handle it and still kill the thief. Also counting dodges and blocks. Yes in another thread I did call for a change to Rune of Tormenting because of the heals when used by Condition builds because kitten was bugged and healed the user when any condition was applied not just Torment.

    The thread on rune of tormenting made it very clear that people were aware of the BUG from the start and I in fact mentioned that the seeming OP nature of Torment was based on that bug and that when it addressed the rune would be fine. I do not recall you stating that it OP because of that bug.

    ...Right thats what I said. I said they needed to fix the bug, the bug got fixed. No problems now.

    @babazhook.6805 said:

    @ButterPeanut.9746 said:
    I think the main two reasons why people still prefer healing signet over mending when running strength is:
    1. Mending's cast time is long enough where it is very easily interrupted by good players and the common strength/disp/spb warrior has very limited access to stability prior to healing.
    2. Often when you need an emergency condi cleanse and use your healing, the 6s of resistance is typically more beneficial than the 3 condi clear.

    If mending cast time was brought down to 0.5s or maybe even 0.75s i think you'd see it played more.
    Healing signet also pairs very well with the strength warrior due to its evasiveness. As you are dodging, use G3, using leaps on sword, you are constantly being healed/re-sustained as opposed to waiting for a cooldown that can be interrupted.

    This is coming from a conquest perspective btw, maybe in 2v2s you'd run mending but not sure. 1v1s mending is solid as you have a lower chance of being interrupted.

    The warrior signet heal is also semi unique in that it has no "do X to get the heal" on its passive, it just happens.

    In other words , it easier. I tend to play thief more then any other build and because withdraw can not be interrupted it one of the favored heals among thieves. That does not make it the BEST heal. It just means you have one less thing to worry about when you need to heal up. There are many thief builds that use other heals (in particular channled vigor). Thief does not have stability or blocks meaning Channled vigor easier to interrupt. Those using CV play around that buy utilizing other skills to ensure the heal not interrupted. More difficult, yes, but there is a payoff.

    I would also point out the Active of HS has one of the longest cast times of any Warrior heal.

    As to the the fact HS activates no matter what given it a passive, there also a downside to this. As mentioned before this means poison on a warrior is also always actively inhibiting a heal each and every second with one single stack. When I am on thief facing warrior using HS my poison even in a power build is more effective then facing a warrior using an alternate heal. That poison does not have to be on 100 percent of the time either. if I have it applied 50 percent of the time against a warrior relying on passive heals (adrenal , HS) then 50 percent of the time those heals effectivness cut by a third. So while it in fact easier not having to worry about activating a passive because it always on , it also easier for the enemy to compromise that heal.

    For starters, yes in other words its "easier" in the same way that its "easier" to heal with Withdrawal on Thief, in the same way that its easier to heal with Shelter on Guardian, easier to heal with Glint heal on Revenant, easier to heal more when using Monk's Focus on Guardian, and so on. Now see the logic you're applying here to thief, in the vein that Thieves use other skills to ensure the heal is not interrupted you can apply to Warriors using other skills to give Healing Signet an opportunity to heal you for a bit. For instance, Shield Stance block Duration is 3 seconds, pair that with an immediate swap into greatsword after the block to cast greatsword 3 and you have had at least 4 seconds of healing from Healing Signet, it ticks every 1 second. Thats 344 x 4 = 1,376. Also taking into account kiting, or using line of sight, or other skills the Warrior has available and you are healing for even more. Now pair that with Adrenal Health and the passive health regeneration is very strong. The other heal skills on Warrior are useful in certain circumstances, Mending can help sometimes and To The Limit is a beefy heal with a relatively short CD, but despite that Healing Signet is still the most solid choice for Warrior because of the utilities it has available to it.

    As someone else said as well, poison is a factor but its not nearly active enough to warrant swapping Healing Signet out for Mending in general circumstances. In a 1v1 vs a condi thief that is kiting a lot and just applying poison, sure that would be a situation where Mending could be used over Healing Signet. However I've run into that before and the players I've faced that have done that didn't force me into swapping out Healing Signet for Mending. I could have and then maybe would have had an easier time dealing with them, but I still didn't feel it was necessary.

    You're even saying yourself that you play thief more than any other so I have to question your ability to actually implement your theory over the actual theory itself. In theory maybe it sounds right in your head, but in practice people are trying to tell you that its not entirely accurate and its circumstantial at best.

    If I play a build and test it in a game , It is not a theory. How hard is this for you to understand? This is not in my head. I take the builds INTO the game and play them. This is why I have three warriors and why I have 6 thieves. Each is different and each plays differently and each has a different selection of skills which I test over and over again to find the one that works best for me.

    I do not play one type of build. I play multiples and it is not hard to assess how each plays out in game. I understand thief very well and so when designing a warrior and playing with a warrior against a thief know exactly what that thief does not want to see in a warrior and what things my warrior can do to counter that thief. By the same token I recognize that a given thief or warrior build I have will perfrom differently against different thief or warrior builds I might encounter.

    In my variants of warrior I have one that is the typical warrior build. This build is designed around sustain and fights can drag out for some time. In this build HS works best. When I substitute in other heals they do not work as well. I get instant feedback this way .

    In a second warrior build, this one predicated on Conditions and sustain through activated heals, I have TRIED healing signet and found that compared to Mending or to the limit HS underperfroms. The build is much more successful using those other two heals. It simply a matter of slotting one in for another and measuring its success/failure rate over a given period of time.

    In a third warrior build, this one built around power, I switch equally between Mending and HS. This depends very much on whether I am with a small group, running solo or in a Zerg. While typically I do not zerg fight I do find that different utilities chosen are more Zerg friendly and different ones are more solo friendly.

    As I stated before , in power builds the advantages of Healing Signets better manifest themselves in longer fights. If a Fight ends in 15 seconds and I am dead or the enemy dead , HS did little and in such a fight if I am on the receiving end of high burst damage, I am better off with a fatter heal that can keep me in a fight rather then one that will allow me a few seconds more of life. In fights that last longer it is the second 15 seconds and third 15 seconds where HS becomes more effective. The reasons for this are simple exercises in mathematics coupled with how the game is played.

    When I am doing these tests to satisfy my own curiousity, I do not just run one build for a few hours in order to arrive at my conclusions. I will run a particular build for days in a row trying to make it work and changing up my style so as to ensure I am maximizing what I am able to do with it. I have plenty of time. I am not concerned if I get downed and have to start again. After every down whether I down an enemy or am the victim of one , I port back to a WP and pore through the logs to see what got me , what tells i missed and so on.

    I am going to suggest that they very PRESENCE of a metabattle site where people want to run to to get "the best build" demonstrates to me that many do not have the patience for this sort of gameplay. They want instant results. They get that instant result and then presume to tell everyone else that it the only way to play.

  • KryTiKaL.3125KryTiKaL.3125 Member ✭✭✭

    @babazhook.6805 said:

    @KryTiKaL.3125 said:

    @babazhook.6805 said:

    Yes Poison can dampen passive heals and thieves can frequently apply it. I only run into this as an issue when running into condi thieves, but even then as a Core Warrior I've still had enough cleanses/resistance available to be able to handle it and still kill the thief. Also counting dodges and blocks. Yes in another thread I did call for a change to Rune of Tormenting because of the heals when used by Condition builds because kitten was bugged and healed the user when any condition was applied not just Torment.

    The thread on rune of tormenting made it very clear that people were aware of the BUG from the start and I in fact mentioned that the seeming OP nature of Torment was based on that bug and that when it addressed the rune would be fine. I do not recall you stating that it OP because of that bug.

    ...Right thats what I said. I said they needed to fix the bug, the bug got fixed. No problems now.

    @babazhook.6805 said:

    @ButterPeanut.9746 said:
    I think the main two reasons why people still prefer healing signet over mending when running strength is:
    1. Mending's cast time is long enough where it is very easily interrupted by good players and the common strength/disp/spb warrior has very limited access to stability prior to healing.
    2. Often when you need an emergency condi cleanse and use your healing, the 6s of resistance is typically more beneficial than the 3 condi clear.

    If mending cast time was brought down to 0.5s or maybe even 0.75s i think you'd see it played more.
    Healing signet also pairs very well with the strength warrior due to its evasiveness. As you are dodging, use G3, using leaps on sword, you are constantly being healed/re-sustained as opposed to waiting for a cooldown that can be interrupted.

    This is coming from a conquest perspective btw, maybe in 2v2s you'd run mending but not sure. 1v1s mending is solid as you have a lower chance of being interrupted.

    The warrior signet heal is also semi unique in that it has no "do X to get the heal" on its passive, it just happens.

    In other words , it easier. I tend to play thief more then any other build and because withdraw can not be interrupted it one of the favored heals among thieves. That does not make it the BEST heal. It just means you have one less thing to worry about when you need to heal up. There are many thief builds that use other heals (in particular channled vigor). Thief does not have stability or blocks meaning Channled vigor easier to interrupt. Those using CV play around that buy utilizing other skills to ensure the heal not interrupted. More difficult, yes, but there is a payoff.

    I would also point out the Active of HS has one of the longest cast times of any Warrior heal.

    As to the the fact HS activates no matter what given it a passive, there also a downside to this. As mentioned before this means poison on a warrior is also always actively inhibiting a heal each and every second with one single stack. When I am on thief facing warrior using HS my poison even in a power build is more effective then facing a warrior using an alternate heal. That poison does not have to be on 100 percent of the time either. if I have it applied 50 percent of the time against a warrior relying on passive heals (adrenal , HS) then 50 percent of the time those heals effectivness cut by a third. So while it in fact easier not having to worry about activating a passive because it always on , it also easier for the enemy to compromise that heal.

    For starters, yes in other words its "easier" in the same way that its "easier" to heal with Withdrawal on Thief, in the same way that its easier to heal with Shelter on Guardian, easier to heal with Glint heal on Revenant, easier to heal more when using Monk's Focus on Guardian, and so on. Now see the logic you're applying here to thief, in the vein that Thieves use other skills to ensure the heal is not interrupted you can apply to Warriors using other skills to give Healing Signet an opportunity to heal you for a bit. For instance, Shield Stance block Duration is 3 seconds, pair that with an immediate swap into greatsword after the block to cast greatsword 3 and you have had at least 4 seconds of healing from Healing Signet, it ticks every 1 second. Thats 344 x 4 = 1,376. Also taking into account kiting, or using line of sight, or other skills the Warrior has available and you are healing for even more. Now pair that with Adrenal Health and the passive health regeneration is very strong. The other heal skills on Warrior are useful in certain circumstances, Mending can help sometimes and To The Limit is a beefy heal with a relatively short CD, but despite that Healing Signet is still the most solid choice for Warrior because of the utilities it has available to it.

    As someone else said as well, poison is a factor but its not nearly active enough to warrant swapping Healing Signet out for Mending in general circumstances. In a 1v1 vs a condi thief that is kiting a lot and just applying poison, sure that would be a situation where Mending could be used over Healing Signet. However I've run into that before and the players I've faced that have done that didn't force me into swapping out Healing Signet for Mending. I could have and then maybe would have had an easier time dealing with them, but I still didn't feel it was necessary.

    You're even saying yourself that you play thief more than any other so I have to question your ability to actually implement your theory over the actual theory itself. In theory maybe it sounds right in your head, but in practice people are trying to tell you that its not entirely accurate and its circumstantial at best.

    If I play a build and test it in a game , It is not a theory. How hard is this for you to understand? This is not in my head. I take the builds INTO the game and play them. This is why I have three warriors and why I have 6 thieves. Each is different and each plays differently and each has a different selection of skills which I test over and over again to find the one that works best for me.

    I do not play one type of build. I play multiples and it is not hard to assess how each plays out in game. I understand thief very well and so when designing a warrior and playing with a warrior against a thief know exactly what that thief does not want to see in a warrior and what things my warrior can do to counter that thief. By the same token I recognize that a given thief or warrior build I have will perfrom differently against different thief or warrior builds I might encounter.

    In my variants of warrior I have one that is the typical warrior build. This build is designed around sustain and fights can drag out for some time. In this build HS works best. When I substitute in other heals they do not work as well. I get instant feedback this way .

    In a second warrior build, this one predicated on Conditions and sustain through activated heals, I have TRIED healing signet and found that compared to Mending or to the limit HS underperfroms. The build is much more successful using those other two heals. It simply a matter of slotting one in for another and measuring its success/failure rate over a given period of time.

    In a third warrior build, this one built around power, I switch equally between Mending and HS. This depends very much on whether I am with a small group, running solo or in a Zerg. While typically I do not zerg fight I do find that different utilities chosen are more Zerg friendly and different ones are more solo friendly.

    As I stated before , in power builds the advantages of Healing Signets better manifest themselves in longer fights. If a Fight ends in 15 seconds and I am dead or the enemy dead , HS did little and in such a fight if I am on the receiving end of high burst damage, I am better off with a fatter heal that can keep me in a fight rather then one that will allow me a few seconds more of life. In fights that last longer it is the second 15 seconds and third 15 seconds where HS becomes more effective. The reasons for this are simple exercises in mathematics coupled with how the game is played.

    When I am doing these tests to satisfy my own curiousity, I do not just run one build for a few hours in order to arrive at my conclusions. I will run a particular build for days in a row trying to make it work and changing up my style so as to ensure I am maximizing what I am able to do with it. I have plenty of time. I am not concerned if I get downed and have to start again. After every down whether I down an enemy or am the victim of one , I port back to a WP and pore through the logs to see what got me , what tells i missed and so on.

    I am going to suggest that they very PRESENCE of a metabattle site where people want to run to to get "the best build" demonstrates to me that many do not have the patience for this sort of gameplay. They want instant results.

    They "run" to it because its a good starting point. It helps you learn the strengths and weaknesses of your class because these builds are among the most solid that classes have access to and people run things other than the builds listed under "meta" specifically. Core builds as an example still work very well for some classes and are mostly still used in WvW but more rarely used in sPvP.

    I'm sure your builds work decently, I wouldn't dispute that. I see enough condi Berserkers or sometimes even Condi spellbreakers running around to know that they can sometimes be around and do something, but more often than not they fall completely flat up against a good player using one of, or a variant of, a build from Metabattle. Or I should say more accurately, a more meta oriented build.

    I almost exclusively play Core Warrior in WvW, even in groups, because its what I enjoy however I will swap into Spellbreaker in more group oriented fights and I will swap around Utility skills as needed to things that more suit what is needed in the fight. However I don't drastically try to reinvent the wheel, Warrior's strength is due to several factors. One is its mobility which is pretty much exclusive to Greatsword, thats why its used in pretty much any build you see. The Tetherbreaker build for Spellbreaker has the added benefit of the Sword 2 leap but even then it still uses greatsword. Second is its "invuln" states; Endure Pain, Defy Pain, Full Counter and Block (assuming unblockables aren't at play). These give the Warrior's method of sustain, usually Adrenal Health paired with Healing Signet, opportunities for them to heal and stay in the fight. Sometimes Mending is used should they need a more on demand heal with a short cooldown and some extra condi cleanse but thats typically in very specific circumstances. Otherwise these tools are what the Warrior thrives the best on while its best sustain is essentially locked behind playing with a sort of "passive aggressive" playstyle since those burst skills getting dodged can lead to a Warrior's swift death or early kiting.

    Condi Warrior isn't that strong in PvP due to it being associated with the very clunky Sword burst skill and Berserker being the "condi" spec for the class, yet it does not perform it well in PvP and the Berserker spec just isn't as great as it used to be even with a Power setup sadly (I do miss those days).

    You're free to run what you want, but I've been where you are with that whole mindset of "Meta is dumb" and "I don't need it, I can figure it all out myself" and its just plain arrogance. You're essentially trying to discredit the testing done by the individuals who post these builds while trying to say your testing is more appropriate or better because its you doing it and "you know better" and the people using meta builds are just looking for instant gratification. Which you know you're not entirely wrong there, people definitely gravitate towards these builds because they maybe see a youtuber or streamer using them and they want to emulate the success they see from that content creator, but more often than not they simply believe that running the build itself will make them better and that isn't true, they forget that they need to learn about why it is a strong build and improve mechanically in the game before they can emulate what they saw in a video. However that doesn't lower the value of using meta builds to learn, improve and then begin to experiment based on what you've learned by playing a build that is built upon the best strengths of a class. You're more easily able to diverge and find what can work for you and still allow you to fulfill the role that you should fill.

  • @KryTiKaL.3125 said:

    @babazhook.6805 said:

    @KryTiKaL.3125 said:

    @babazhook.6805 said:

    Yes Poison can dampen passive heals and thieves can frequently apply it. I only run into this as an issue when running into condi thieves, but even then as a Core Warrior I've still had enough cleanses/resistance available to be able to handle it and still kill the thief. Also counting dodges and blocks. Yes in another thread I did call for a change to Rune of Tormenting because of the heals when used by Condition builds because kitten was bugged and healed the user when any condition was applied not just Torment.

    The thread on rune of tormenting made it very clear that people were aware of the BUG from the start and I in fact mentioned that the seeming OP nature of Torment was based on that bug and that when it addressed the rune would be fine. I do not recall you stating that it OP because of that bug.

    ...Right thats what I said. I said they needed to fix the bug, the bug got fixed. No problems now.

    @babazhook.6805 said:

    @ButterPeanut.9746 said:
    I think the main two reasons why people still prefer healing signet over mending when running strength is:
    1. Mending's cast time is long enough where it is very easily interrupted by good players and the common strength/disp/spb warrior has very limited access to stability prior to healing.
    2. Often when you need an emergency condi cleanse and use your healing, the 6s of resistance is typically more beneficial than the 3 condi clear.

    If mending cast time was brought down to 0.5s or maybe even 0.75s i think you'd see it played more.
    Healing signet also pairs very well with the strength warrior due to its evasiveness. As you are dodging, use G3, using leaps on sword, you are constantly being healed/re-sustained as opposed to waiting for a cooldown that can be interrupted.

    This is coming from a conquest perspective btw, maybe in 2v2s you'd run mending but not sure. 1v1s mending is solid as you have a lower chance of being interrupted.

    The warrior signet heal is also semi unique in that it has no "do X to get the heal" on its passive, it just happens.

    In other words , it easier. I tend to play thief more then any other build and because withdraw can not be interrupted it one of the favored heals among thieves. That does not make it the BEST heal. It just means you have one less thing to worry about when you need to heal up. There are many thief builds that use other heals (in particular channled vigor). Thief does not have stability or blocks meaning Channled vigor easier to interrupt. Those using CV play around that buy utilizing other skills to ensure the heal not interrupted. More difficult, yes, but there is a payoff.

    I would also point out the Active of HS has one of the longest cast times of any Warrior heal.

    As to the the fact HS activates no matter what given it a passive, there also a downside to this. As mentioned before this means poison on a warrior is also always actively inhibiting a heal each and every second with one single stack. When I am on thief facing warrior using HS my poison even in a power build is more effective then facing a warrior using an alternate heal. That poison does not have to be on 100 percent of the time either. if I have it applied 50 percent of the time against a warrior relying on passive heals (adrenal , HS) then 50 percent of the time those heals effectivness cut by a third. So while it in fact easier not having to worry about activating a passive because it always on , it also easier for the enemy to compromise that heal.

    For starters, yes in other words its "easier" in the same way that its "easier" to heal with Withdrawal on Thief, in the same way that its easier to heal with Shelter on Guardian, easier to heal with Glint heal on Revenant, easier to heal more when using Monk's Focus on Guardian, and so on. Now see the logic you're applying here to thief, in the vein that Thieves use other skills to ensure the heal is not interrupted you can apply to Warriors using other skills to give Healing Signet an opportunity to heal you for a bit. For instance, Shield Stance block Duration is 3 seconds, pair that with an immediate swap into greatsword after the block to cast greatsword 3 and you have had at least 4 seconds of healing from Healing Signet, it ticks every 1 second. Thats 344 x 4 = 1,376. Also taking into account kiting, or using line of sight, or other skills the Warrior has available and you are healing for even more. Now pair that with Adrenal Health and the passive health regeneration is very strong. The other heal skills on Warrior are useful in certain circumstances, Mending can help sometimes and To The Limit is a beefy heal with a relatively short CD, but despite that Healing Signet is still the most solid choice for Warrior because of the utilities it has available to it.

    As someone else said as well, poison is a factor but its not nearly active enough to warrant swapping Healing Signet out for Mending in general circumstances. In a 1v1 vs a condi thief that is kiting a lot and just applying poison, sure that would be a situation where Mending could be used over Healing Signet. However I've run into that before and the players I've faced that have done that didn't force me into swapping out Healing Signet for Mending. I could have and then maybe would have had an easier time dealing with them, but I still didn't feel it was necessary.

    You're even saying yourself that you play thief more than any other so I have to question your ability to actually implement your theory over the actual theory itself. In theory maybe it sounds right in your head, but in practice people are trying to tell you that its not entirely accurate and its circumstantial at best.

    If I play a build and test it in a game , It is not a theory. How hard is this for you to understand? This is not in my head. I take the builds INTO the game and play them. This is why I have three warriors and why I have 6 thieves. Each is different and each plays differently and each has a different selection of skills which I test over and over again to find the one that works best for me.

    I do not play one type of build. I play multiples and it is not hard to assess how each plays out in game. I understand thief very well and so when designing a warrior and playing with a warrior against a thief know exactly what that thief does not want to see in a warrior and what things my warrior can do to counter that thief. By the same token I recognize that a given thief or warrior build I have will perfrom differently against different thief or warrior builds I might encounter.

    In my variants of warrior I have one that is the typical warrior build. This build is designed around sustain and fights can drag out for some time. In this build HS works best. When I substitute in other heals they do not work as well. I get instant feedback this way .

    In a second warrior build, this one predicated on Conditions and sustain through activated heals, I have TRIED healing signet and found that compared to Mending or to the limit HS underperfroms. The build is much more successful using those other two heals. It simply a matter of slotting one in for another and measuring its success/failure rate over a given period of time.

    In a third warrior build, this one built around power, I switch equally between Mending and HS. This depends very much on whether I am with a small group, running solo or in a Zerg. While typically I do not zerg fight I do find that different utilities chosen are more Zerg friendly and different ones are more solo friendly.

    As I stated before , in power builds the advantages of Healing Signets better manifest themselves in longer fights. If a Fight ends in 15 seconds and I am dead or the enemy dead , HS did little and in such a fight if I am on the receiving end of high burst damage, I am better off with a fatter heal that can keep me in a fight rather then one that will allow me a few seconds more of life. In fights that last longer it is the second 15 seconds and third 15 seconds where HS becomes more effective. The reasons for this are simple exercises in mathematics coupled with how the game is played.

    When I am doing these tests to satisfy my own curiousity, I do not just run one build for a few hours in order to arrive at my conclusions. I will run a particular build for days in a row trying to make it work and changing up my style so as to ensure I am maximizing what I am able to do with it. I have plenty of time. I am not concerned if I get downed and have to start again. After every down whether I down an enemy or am the victim of one , I port back to a WP and pore through the logs to see what got me , what tells i missed and so on.

    I am going to suggest that they very PRESENCE of a metabattle site where people want to run to to get "the best build" demonstrates to me that many do not have the patience for this sort of gameplay. They want instant results.

    They "run" to it because its a good starting point. It helps you learn the strengths and weaknesses of your class because these builds are among the most solid that classes have access to and people run things other than the builds listed under "meta" specifically. Core builds as an example still work very well for some classes and are mostly still used in WvW but more rarely used in sPvP.

    I'm sure your builds work decently, I wouldn't dispute that. I see enough condi Berserkers or sometimes even Condi spellbreakers running around to know that they can sometimes be around and do something, but more often than not they fall completely flat up against a good player using one of, or a variant of, a build from Metabattle. Or I should say more accurately, a more meta oriented build.

    I almost exclusively play Core Warrior in WvW, even in groups, because its what I enjoy however I will swap into Spellbreaker in more group oriented fights and I will swap around Utility skills as needed to things that more suit what is needed in the fight. However I don't drastically try to reinvent the wheel, Warrior's strength is due to several factors. One is its mobility which is pretty much exclusive to Greatsword, thats why its used in pretty much any build you see. The Tetherbreaker build for Spellbreaker has the added benefit of the Sword 2 leap but even then it still uses greatsword. Second is its "invuln" states; Endure Pain, Defy Pain, Full Counter and Block (assuming unblockables aren't at play). These give the Warrior's method of sustain, usually Adrenal Health paired with Healing Signet, opportunities for them to heal and stay in the fight. Sometimes Mending is used should they need a more on demand heal with a short cooldown and some extra condi cleanse but thats typically in very specific circumstances. Otherwise these tools are what the Warrior thrives the best on while its best sustain is essentially locked behind playing with a sort of "passive aggressive" playstyle since those burst skills getting dodged can lead to a Warrior's swift death or early kiting.

    Condi Warrior isn't that strong in PvP due to it being associated with the very clunky Sword burst skill and Berserker being the "condi" spec for the class, yet it does not perform it well in PvP and the Berserker spec just isn't as great as it used to be even with a Power setup sadly (I do miss those days).

    You're free to run what you want, but I've been where you are with that whole mindset of "Meta is dumb" and "I don't need it, I can figure it all out myself" and its just plain arrogance. You're essentially trying to discredit the testing done by the individuals who post these builds while trying to say your testing is more appropriate or better because its you doing it and "you know better" and the people using meta builds are just looking for instant gratification. Which you know you're not entirely wrong there, people definitely gravitate towards these builds because they maybe see a youtuber or streamer using them and they want to emulate the success they see from that content creator, but more often than not they simply believe that running the build itself will make them better and that isn't true, they forget that they need to learn about why it is a strong build and improve mechanically in the game before they can emulate what they saw in a video. However that doesn't lower the value of using meta builds to learn, improve and then begin to experiment based on what you've learned by playing a build that is built upon the best strengths of a class. You're more easily able to diverge and find what can work for you and still allow you to fulfill the role that you should fill.

    Condi spell breaker? In what universe...

  • babazhook.6805babazhook.6805 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 8, 2018

    @babazhook.6805 said:

    @KryTiKaL.3125 said:

    @babazhook.6805 said:

    Yes Poison can dampen passive heals and thieves can frequently apply it. I only run into this as an issue when running into condi thieves, but even then as a Core Warrior I've still had enough cleanses/resistance available to be able to handle it and still kill the thief. Also counting dodges and blocks. Yes in another thread I did call for a change to Rune of Tormenting because of the heals when used by Condition builds because kitten was bugged and healed the user when any condition was applied not just Torment.

    The thread on rune of tormenting made it very clear that people were aware of the BUG from the start and I in fact mentioned that the seeming OP nature of Torment was based on that bug and that when it addressed the rune would be fine. I do not recall you stating that it OP because of that bug.

    ...Right thats what I said. I said they needed to fix the bug, the bug got fixed. No problems now.

    @babazhook.6805 said:

    @ButterPeanut.9746 said:
    I think the main two reasons why people still prefer healing signet over mending when running strength is:
    1. Mending's cast time is long enough where it is very easily interrupted by good players and the common strength/disp/spb warrior has very limited access to stability prior to healing.
    2. Often when you need an emergency condi cleanse and use your healing, the 6s of resistance is typically more beneficial than the 3 condi clear.

    If mending cast time was brought down to 0.5s or maybe even 0.75s i think you'd see it played more.
    Healing signet also pairs very well with the strength warrior due to its evasiveness. As you are dodging, use G3, using leaps on sword, you are constantly being healed/re-sustained as opposed to waiting for a cooldown that can be interrupted.

    This is coming from a conquest perspective btw, maybe in 2v2s you'd run mending but not sure. 1v1s mending is solid as you have a lower chance of being interrupted.

    The warrior signet heal is also semi unique in that it has no "do X to get the heal" on its passive, it just happens.

    In other words , it easier. I tend to play thief more then any other build and because withdraw can not be interrupted it one of the favored heals among thieves. That does not make it the BEST heal. It just means you have one less thing to worry about when you need to heal up. There are many thief builds that use other heals (in particular channled vigor). Thief does not have stability or blocks meaning Channled vigor easier to interrupt. Those using CV play around that buy utilizing other skills to ensure the heal not interrupted. More difficult, yes, but there is a payoff.

    I would also point out the Active of HS has one of the longest cast times of any Warrior heal.

    As to the the fact HS activates no matter what given it a passive, there also a downside to this. As mentioned before this means poison on a warrior is also always actively inhibiting a heal each and every second with one single stack. When I am on thief facing warrior using HS my poison even in a power build is more effective then facing a warrior using an alternate heal. That poison does not have to be on 100 percent of the time either. if I have it applied 50 percent of the time against a warrior relying on passive heals (adrenal , HS) then 50 percent of the time those heals effectivness cut by a third. So while it in fact easier not having to worry about activating a passive because it always on , it also easier for the enemy to compromise that heal.

    For starters, yes in other words its "easier" in the same way that its "easier" to heal with Withdrawal on Thief, in the same way that its easier to heal with Shelter on Guardian, easier to heal with Glint heal on Revenant, easier to heal more when using Monk's Focus on Guardian, and so on. Now see the logic you're applying here to thief, in the vein that Thieves use other skills to ensure the heal is not interrupted you can apply to Warriors using other skills to give Healing Signet an opportunity to heal you for a bit. For instance, Shield Stance block Duration is 3 seconds, pair that with an immediate swap into greatsword after the block to cast greatsword 3 and you have had at least 4 seconds of healing from Healing Signet, it ticks every 1 second. Thats 344 x 4 = 1,376. Also taking into account kiting, or using line of sight, or other skills the Warrior has available and you are healing for even more. Now pair that with Adrenal Health and the passive health regeneration is very strong. The other heal skills on Warrior are useful in certain circumstances, Mending can help sometimes and To The Limit is a beefy heal with a relatively short CD, but despite that Healing Signet is still the most solid choice for Warrior because of the utilities it has available to it.

    As someone else said as well, poison is a factor but its not nearly active enough to warrant swapping Healing Signet out for Mending in general circumstances. In a 1v1 vs a condi thief that is kiting a lot and just applying poison, sure that would be a situation where Mending could be used over Healing Signet. However I've run into that before and the players I've faced that have done that didn't force me into swapping out Healing Signet for Mending. I could have and then maybe would have had an easier time dealing with them, but I still didn't feel it was necessary.

    You're even saying yourself that you play thief more than any other so I have to question your ability to actually implement your theory over the actual theory itself. In theory maybe it sounds right in your head, but in practice people are trying to tell you that its not entirely accurate and its circumstantial at best.

    If I play a build and test it in a game , It is not a theory. How hard is this for you to understand? This is not in my head. I take the builds INTO the game and play them. This is why I have three warriors and why I have 6 thieves. Each is different and each plays differently and each has a different selection of skills which I test over and over again to find the one that works best for me.

    I do not play one type of build. I play multiples and it is not hard to assess how each plays out in game. I understand thief very well and so when designing a warrior and playing with a warrior against a thief know exactly what that thief does not want to see in a warrior and what things my warrior can do to counter that thief. By the same token I recognize that a given thief or warrior build I have will perfrom differently against different thief or warrior builds I might encounter.

    In my variants of warrior I have one that is the typical warrior build. This build is designed around sustain and fights can drag out for some time. In this build HS works best. When I substitute in other heals they do not work as well. I get instant feedback this way .

    In a second warrior build, this one predicated on Conditions and sustain through activated heals, I have TRIED healing signet and found that compared to Mending or to the limit HS underperfroms. The build is much more successful using those other two heals. It simply a matter of slotting one in for another and measuring its success/failure rate over a given period of time.

    In a third warrior build, this one built around power, I switch equally between Mending and HS. This depends very much on whether I am with a small group, running solo or in a Zerg. While typically I do not zerg fight I do find that different utilities chosen are more Zerg friendly and different ones are more solo friendly.

    As I stated before , in power builds the advantages of Healing Signets better manifest themselves in longer fights. If a Fight ends in 15 seconds and I am dead or the enemy dead , HS did little and in such a fight if I am on the receiving end of high burst damage, I am better off with a fatter heal that can keep me in a fight rather then one that will allow me a few seconds more of life. In fights that last longer it is the second 15 seconds and third 15 seconds where HS becomes more effective. The reasons for this are simple exercises in mathematics coupled with how the game is played.

    When I am doing these tests to satisfy my own curiousity, I do not just run one build for a few hours in order to arrive at my conclusions. I will run a particular build for days in a row trying to make it work and changing up my style so as to ensure I am maximizing what I am able to do with it. I have plenty of time. I am not concerned if I get downed and have to start again. After every down whether I down an enemy or am the victim of one , I port back to a WP and pore through the logs to see what got me , what tells i missed and so on.

    I am going to suggest that they very PRESENCE of a metabattle site where people want to run to to get "the best build" demonstrates to me that many do not have the patience for this sort of gameplay. They want instant results.

    They "run" to it because its a good starting point. It helps you learn the strengths and weaknesses of your class because these builds are among the most solid that classes have access to and people run things other than the builds listed under "meta" specifically. Core builds as an example still work very well for some classes and are mostly still used in WvW but more rarely used in sPvP.

    I'm sure your builds work decently, I wouldn't dispute that. I see enough condi Berserkers or sometimes even Condi spellbreakers running around to know that they can sometimes be around and do something, but more often than not they fall completely flat up against a good player using one of, or a variant of, a build from Metabattle. Or I should say more accurately, a more meta oriented build.

    I almost exclusively play Core Warrior in WvW, even in groups, because its what I enjoy however I will swap into Spellbreaker in more group oriented fights and I will swap around Utility skills as needed to things that more suit what is needed in the fight. However I don't drastically try to reinvent the wheel, Warrior's strength is due to several factors. One is its mobility which is pretty much exclusive to Greatsword, thats why its used in pretty much any build you see. The Tetherbreaker build for Spellbreaker has the added benefit of the Sword 2 leap but even then it still uses greatsword. Second is its "invuln" states; Endure Pain, Defy Pain, Full Counter and Block (assuming unblockables aren't at play). These give the Warrior's method of sustain, usually Adrenal Health paired with Healing Signet, opportunities for them to heal and stay in the fight. Sometimes Mending is used should they need a more on demand heal with a short cooldown and some extra condi cleanse but thats typically in very specific circumstances. Otherwise these tools are what the Warrior thrives the best on while its best sustain is essentially locked behind playing with a sort of "passive aggressive" playstyle since those burst skills getting dodged can lead to a Warrior's swift death or early kiting.

    Condi Warrior isn't that strong in PvP due to it being associated with the very clunky Sword burst skill and Berserker being the "condi" spec for the class, yet it does not perform it well in PvP and the Berserker spec just isn't as great as it used to be even with a Power setup sadly (I do miss those days).

    You're free to run what you want, but I've been where you are with that whole mindset of "Meta is dumb" and "I don't need it, I can figure it all out myself" and its just plain arrogance. You're essentially trying to discredit the testing done by the individuals who post these builds while trying to say your testing is more appropriate or better because its you doing it and "you know better" and the people using meta builds are just looking for instant gratification. Which you know you're not entirely wrong there, people definitely gravitate towards these builds because they maybe see a youtuber or streamer using them and they want to emulate the success they see from that content creator, but more often than not they simply believe that running the build itself will make them better and that isn't true, they forget that they need to learn about why it is a strong build and improve mechanically in the game before they can emulate what they saw in a video. However that doesn't lower the value of using meta builds to learn, improve and then begin to experiment based on what you've learned by playing a build that is built upon the best strengths of a class. You're more easily able to diverge and find what can work for you and still allow you to fulfill the role that you should fill.

    This is the generic Warrior topic. The question was asked as to why warriors do not use other heals. This is not the PvP topic and the op did not ask why other heals not used in Pvp.

    The builds I mention work better then "decently" in WvW. I do not Pvp and do not care for that mode as the MODE shapes the builds and the design of that format too heavily forces a role (such as theif made for +1 and decap). The limited array of trinkets , runes and the like further limits what used in a build. If there three cars one wants to test and one is a dragster, one a formula 1 car and one an off road vehicle , forcing all three into running a race on a 1/2 mile straightaway does not prove the dragster "the best car".

    The builds I refer to work better then "decently". Part of what makes them work better for me is the heal which i decide to use and it not always HS.

    You resort to ad hominem and personal insutls to make your case. I offered up an opinion as to the utility of other heals in various builds and you took that as a personal attack. If I state I preferred the original Total Recall movie to the remake and you prefer the remake it not arrogance to suggest the first better and it not wrong to suggest that maybe a person should SEE the movie first before reading other reviews all claiming the remake was better.

  • Curennos.9307Curennos.9307 Member ✭✭✭

    @babazhook.6805 said:

    @babazhook.6805 said:

    @KryTiKaL.3125 said:

    @babazhook.6805 said:

    Yes Poison can dampen passive heals and thieves can frequently apply it. I only run into this as an issue when running into condi thieves, but even then as a Core Warrior I've still had enough cleanses/resistance available to be able to handle it and still kill the thief. Also counting dodges and blocks. Yes in another thread I did call for a change to Rune of Tormenting because of the heals when used by Condition builds because kitten was bugged and healed the user when any condition was applied not just Torment.

    The thread on rune of tormenting made it very clear that people were aware of the BUG from the start and I in fact mentioned that the seeming OP nature of Torment was based on that bug and that when it addressed the rune would be fine. I do not recall you stating that it OP because of that bug.

    ...Right thats what I said. I said they needed to fix the bug, the bug got fixed. No problems now.

    @babazhook.6805 said:

    @ButterPeanut.9746 said:
    I think the main two reasons why people still prefer healing signet over mending when running strength is:
    1. Mending's cast time is long enough where it is very easily interrupted by good players and the common strength/disp/spb warrior has very limited access to stability prior to healing.
    2. Often when you need an emergency condi cleanse and use your healing, the 6s of resistance is typically more beneficial than the 3 condi clear.

    If mending cast time was brought down to 0.5s or maybe even 0.75s i think you'd see it played more.
    Healing signet also pairs very well with the strength warrior due to its evasiveness. As you are dodging, use G3, using leaps on sword, you are constantly being healed/re-sustained as opposed to waiting for a cooldown that can be interrupted.

    This is coming from a conquest perspective btw, maybe in 2v2s you'd run mending but not sure. 1v1s mending is solid as you have a lower chance of being interrupted.

    The warrior signet heal is also semi unique in that it has no "do X to get the heal" on its passive, it just happens.

    In other words , it easier. I tend to play thief more then any other build and because withdraw can not be interrupted it one of the favored heals among thieves. That does not make it the BEST heal. It just means you have one less thing to worry about when you need to heal up. There are many thief builds that use other heals (in particular channled vigor). Thief does not have stability or blocks meaning Channled vigor easier to interrupt. Those using CV play around that buy utilizing other skills to ensure the heal not interrupted. More difficult, yes, but there is a payoff.

    I would also point out the Active of HS has one of the longest cast times of any Warrior heal.

    As to the the fact HS activates no matter what given it a passive, there also a downside to this. As mentioned before this means poison on a warrior is also always actively inhibiting a heal each and every second with one single stack. When I am on thief facing warrior using HS my poison even in a power build is more effective then facing a warrior using an alternate heal. That poison does not have to be on 100 percent of the time either. if I have it applied 50 percent of the time against a warrior relying on passive heals (adrenal , HS) then 50 percent of the time those heals effectivness cut by a third. So while it in fact easier not having to worry about activating a passive because it always on , it also easier for the enemy to compromise that heal.

    For starters, yes in other words its "easier" in the same way that its "easier" to heal with Withdrawal on Thief, in the same way that its easier to heal with Shelter on Guardian, easier to heal with Glint heal on Revenant, easier to heal more when using Monk's Focus on Guardian, and so on. Now see the logic you're applying here to thief, in the vein that Thieves use other skills to ensure the heal is not interrupted you can apply to Warriors using other skills to give Healing Signet an opportunity to heal you for a bit. For instance, Shield Stance block Duration is 3 seconds, pair that with an immediate swap into greatsword after the block to cast greatsword 3 and you have had at least 4 seconds of healing from Healing Signet, it ticks every 1 second. Thats 344 x 4 = 1,376. Also taking into account kiting, or using line of sight, or other skills the Warrior has available and you are healing for even more. Now pair that with Adrenal Health and the passive health regeneration is very strong. The other heal skills on Warrior are useful in certain circumstances, Mending can help sometimes and To The Limit is a beefy heal with a relatively short CD, but despite that Healing Signet is still the most solid choice for Warrior because of the utilities it has available to it.

    As someone else said as well, poison is a factor but its not nearly active enough to warrant swapping Healing Signet out for Mending in general circumstances. In a 1v1 vs a condi thief that is kiting a lot and just applying poison, sure that would be a situation where Mending could be used over Healing Signet. However I've run into that before and the players I've faced that have done that didn't force me into swapping out Healing Signet for Mending. I could have and then maybe would have had an easier time dealing with them, but I still didn't feel it was necessary.

    You're even saying yourself that you play thief more than any other so I have to question your ability to actually implement your theory over the actual theory itself. In theory maybe it sounds right in your head, but in practice people are trying to tell you that its not entirely accurate and its circumstantial at best.

    If I play a build and test it in a game , It is not a theory. How hard is this for you to understand? This is not in my head. I take the builds INTO the game and play them. This is why I have three warriors and why I have 6 thieves. Each is different and each plays differently and each has a different selection of skills which I test over and over again to find the one that works best for me.

    I do not play one type of build. I play multiples and it is not hard to assess how each plays out in game. I understand thief very well and so when designing a warrior and playing with a warrior against a thief know exactly what that thief does not want to see in a warrior and what things my warrior can do to counter that thief. By the same token I recognize that a given thief or warrior build I have will perfrom differently against different thief or warrior builds I might encounter.

    In my variants of warrior I have one that is the typical warrior build. This build is designed around sustain and fights can drag out for some time. In this build HS works best. When I substitute in other heals they do not work as well. I get instant feedback this way .

    In a second warrior build, this one predicated on Conditions and sustain through activated heals, I have TRIED healing signet and found that compared to Mending or to the limit HS underperfroms. The build is much more successful using those other two heals. It simply a matter of slotting one in for another and measuring its success/failure rate over a given period of time.

    In a third warrior build, this one built around power, I switch equally between Mending and HS. This depends very much on whether I am with a small group, running solo or in a Zerg. While typically I do not zerg fight I do find that different utilities chosen are more Zerg friendly and different ones are more solo friendly.

    As I stated before , in power builds the advantages of Healing Signets better manifest themselves in longer fights. If a Fight ends in 15 seconds and I am dead or the enemy dead , HS did little and in such a fight if I am on the receiving end of high burst damage, I am better off with a fatter heal that can keep me in a fight rather then one that will allow me a few seconds more of life. In fights that last longer it is the second 15 seconds and third 15 seconds where HS becomes more effective. The reasons for this are simple exercises in mathematics coupled with how the game is played.

    When I am doing these tests to satisfy my own curiousity, I do not just run one build for a few hours in order to arrive at my conclusions. I will run a particular build for days in a row trying to make it work and changing up my style so as to ensure I am maximizing what I am able to do with it. I have plenty of time. I am not concerned if I get downed and have to start again. After every down whether I down an enemy or am the victim of one , I port back to a WP and pore through the logs to see what got me , what tells i missed and so on.

    I am going to suggest that they very PRESENCE of a metabattle site where people want to run to to get "the best build" demonstrates to me that many do not have the patience for this sort of gameplay. They want instant results.

    They "run" to it because its a good starting point. It helps you learn the strengths and weaknesses of your class because these builds are among the most solid that classes have access to and people run things other than the builds listed under "meta" specifically. Core builds as an example still work very well for some classes and are mostly still used in WvW but more rarely used in sPvP.

    I'm sure your builds work decently, I wouldn't dispute that. I see enough condi Berserkers or sometimes even Condi spellbreakers running around to know that they can sometimes be around and do something, but more often than not they fall completely flat up against a good player using one of, or a variant of, a build from Metabattle. Or I should say more accurately, a more meta oriented build.

    I almost exclusively play Core Warrior in WvW, even in groups, because its what I enjoy however I will swap into Spellbreaker in more group oriented fights and I will swap around Utility skills as needed to things that more suit what is needed in the fight. However I don't drastically try to reinvent the wheel, Warrior's strength is due to several factors. One is its mobility which is pretty much exclusive to Greatsword, thats why its used in pretty much any build you see. The Tetherbreaker build for Spellbreaker has the added benefit of the Sword 2 leap but even then it still uses greatsword. Second is its "invuln" states; Endure Pain, Defy Pain, Full Counter and Block (assuming unblockables aren't at play). These give the Warrior's method of sustain, usually Adrenal Health paired with Healing Signet, opportunities for them to heal and stay in the fight. Sometimes Mending is used should they need a more on demand heal with a short cooldown and some extra condi cleanse but thats typically in very specific circumstances. Otherwise these tools are what the Warrior thrives the best on while its best sustain is essentially locked behind playing with a sort of "passive aggressive" playstyle since those burst skills getting dodged can lead to a Warrior's swift death or early kiting.

    Condi Warrior isn't that strong in PvP due to it being associated with the very clunky Sword burst skill and Berserker being the "condi" spec for the class, yet it does not perform it well in PvP and the Berserker spec just isn't as great as it used to be even with a Power setup sadly (I do miss those days).

    You're free to run what you want, but I've been where you are with that whole mindset of "Meta is dumb" and "I don't need it, I can figure it all out myself" and its just plain arrogance. You're essentially trying to discredit the testing done by the individuals who post these builds while trying to say your testing is more appropriate or better because its you doing it and "you know better" and the people using meta builds are just looking for instant gratification. Which you know you're not entirely wrong there, people definitely gravitate towards these builds because they maybe see a youtuber or streamer using them and they want to emulate the success they see from that content creator, but more often than not they simply believe that running the build itself will make them better and that isn't true, they forget that they need to learn about why it is a strong build and improve mechanically in the game before they can emulate what they saw in a video. However that doesn't lower the value of using meta builds to learn, improve and then begin to experiment based on what you've learned by playing a build that is built upon the best strengths of a class. You're more easily able to diverge and find what can work for you and still allow you to fulfill the role that you should fill.

    This is the generic Warrior topic. The question was asked as to why warriors do not use other heals. This is not the PvP topic and the op did not ask why other heals not used in Pvp.

    The builds I mention work better then "decently" in WvW. I do not Pvp and do not care for that mode as the MODE shapes the builds and the design of that format too heavily forces a role (such as theif made for +1 and decap). The limited array of trinkets , runes and the like further limits what used in a build. If there three cars one wants to test and one is a dragster, one a formula 1 car and one an off road vehicle , forcing all three into running a race on a 1/2 mile straightaway does not prove the dragster "the best car".

    The builds I refer to work better then "decently". Part of what makes them work better for me is the heal which i decide to use and it not always HS.

    You resort to ad hominem and personal insutls to make your case. I offered up an opinion as to the utility of other heals in various builds and you took that as a personal attack. If I state I preferred the original Total Recall movie to the remake and you prefer the remake it not arrogance to suggest the first better and it not wrong to suggest that maybe a person should SEE the movie first before reading other reviews all claiming the remake was better.

    If you read the last sentence of my post, I specifically place my question within the context of wishing to main warrior for pvp. I suppose I should've specified 'spvp', as I'm not sure if people automatically assume pvp = spvp as opposed to wvw etc etc. My bad there.

    Regardless, people are free to discuss what they like :) It all helps ,even if someone goes on a tangent concerning pve healing skills.

  • KryTiKaL.3125KryTiKaL.3125 Member ✭✭✭

    @babazhook.6805 said:

    @babazhook.6805 said:

    @KryTiKaL.3125 said:

    @babazhook.6805 said:

    Yes Poison can dampen passive heals and thieves can frequently apply it. I only run into this as an issue when running into condi thieves, but even then as a Core Warrior I've still had enough cleanses/resistance available to be able to handle it and still kill the thief. Also counting dodges and blocks. Yes in another thread I did call for a change to Rune of Tormenting because of the heals when used by Condition builds because kitten was bugged and healed the user when any condition was applied not just Torment.

    The thread on rune of tormenting made it very clear that people were aware of the BUG from the start and I in fact mentioned that the seeming OP nature of Torment was based on that bug and that when it addressed the rune would be fine. I do not recall you stating that it OP because of that bug.

    ...Right thats what I said. I said they needed to fix the bug, the bug got fixed. No problems now.

    @babazhook.6805 said:

    @ButterPeanut.9746 said:
    I think the main two reasons why people still prefer healing signet over mending when running strength is:
    1. Mending's cast time is long enough where it is very easily interrupted by good players and the common strength/disp/spb warrior has very limited access to stability prior to healing.
    2. Often when you need an emergency condi cleanse and use your healing, the 6s of resistance is typically more beneficial than the 3 condi clear.

    If mending cast time was brought down to 0.5s or maybe even 0.75s i think you'd see it played more.
    Healing signet also pairs very well with the strength warrior due to its evasiveness. As you are dodging, use G3, using leaps on sword, you are constantly being healed/re-sustained as opposed to waiting for a cooldown that can be interrupted.

    This is coming from a conquest perspective btw, maybe in 2v2s you'd run mending but not sure. 1v1s mending is solid as you have a lower chance of being interrupted.

    The warrior signet heal is also semi unique in that it has no "do X to get the heal" on its passive, it just happens.

    In other words , it easier. I tend to play thief more then any other build and because withdraw can not be interrupted it one of the favored heals among thieves. That does not make it the BEST heal. It just means you have one less thing to worry about when you need to heal up. There are many thief builds that use other heals (in particular channled vigor). Thief does not have stability or blocks meaning Channled vigor easier to interrupt. Those using CV play around that buy utilizing other skills to ensure the heal not interrupted. More difficult, yes, but there is a payoff.

    I would also point out the Active of HS has one of the longest cast times of any Warrior heal.

    As to the the fact HS activates no matter what given it a passive, there also a downside to this. As mentioned before this means poison on a warrior is also always actively inhibiting a heal each and every second with one single stack. When I am on thief facing warrior using HS my poison even in a power build is more effective then facing a warrior using an alternate heal. That poison does not have to be on 100 percent of the time either. if I have it applied 50 percent of the time against a warrior relying on passive heals (adrenal , HS) then 50 percent of the time those heals effectivness cut by a third. So while it in fact easier not having to worry about activating a passive because it always on , it also easier for the enemy to compromise that heal.

    For starters, yes in other words its "easier" in the same way that its "easier" to heal with Withdrawal on Thief, in the same way that its easier to heal with Shelter on Guardian, easier to heal with Glint heal on Revenant, easier to heal more when using Monk's Focus on Guardian, and so on. Now see the logic you're applying here to thief, in the vein that Thieves use other skills to ensure the heal is not interrupted you can apply to Warriors using other skills to give Healing Signet an opportunity to heal you for a bit. For instance, Shield Stance block Duration is 3 seconds, pair that with an immediate swap into greatsword after the block to cast greatsword 3 and you have had at least 4 seconds of healing from Healing Signet, it ticks every 1 second. Thats 344 x 4 = 1,376. Also taking into account kiting, or using line of sight, or other skills the Warrior has available and you are healing for even more. Now pair that with Adrenal Health and the passive health regeneration is very strong. The other heal skills on Warrior are useful in certain circumstances, Mending can help sometimes and To The Limit is a beefy heal with a relatively short CD, but despite that Healing Signet is still the most solid choice for Warrior because of the utilities it has available to it.

    As someone else said as well, poison is a factor but its not nearly active enough to warrant swapping Healing Signet out for Mending in general circumstances. In a 1v1 vs a condi thief that is kiting a lot and just applying poison, sure that would be a situation where Mending could be used over Healing Signet. However I've run into that before and the players I've faced that have done that didn't force me into swapping out Healing Signet for Mending. I could have and then maybe would have had an easier time dealing with them, but I still didn't feel it was necessary.

    You're even saying yourself that you play thief more than any other so I have to question your ability to actually implement your theory over the actual theory itself. In theory maybe it sounds right in your head, but in practice people are trying to tell you that its not entirely accurate and its circumstantial at best.

    If I play a build and test it in a game , It is not a theory. How hard is this for you to understand? This is not in my head. I take the builds INTO the game and play them. This is why I have three warriors and why I have 6 thieves. Each is different and each plays differently and each has a different selection of skills which I test over and over again to find the one that works best for me.

    I do not play one type of build. I play multiples and it is not hard to assess how each plays out in game. I understand thief very well and so when designing a warrior and playing with a warrior against a thief know exactly what that thief does not want to see in a warrior and what things my warrior can do to counter that thief. By the same token I recognize that a given thief or warrior build I have will perfrom differently against different thief or warrior builds I might encounter.

    In my variants of warrior I have one that is the typical warrior build. This build is designed around sustain and fights can drag out for some time. In this build HS works best. When I substitute in other heals they do not work as well. I get instant feedback this way .

    In a second warrior build, this one predicated on Conditions and sustain through activated heals, I have TRIED healing signet and found that compared to Mending or to the limit HS underperfroms. The build is much more successful using those other two heals. It simply a matter of slotting one in for another and measuring its success/failure rate over a given period of time.

    In a third warrior build, this one built around power, I switch equally between Mending and HS. This depends very much on whether I am with a small group, running solo or in a Zerg. While typically I do not zerg fight I do find that different utilities chosen are more Zerg friendly and different ones are more solo friendly.

    As I stated before , in power builds the advantages of Healing Signets better manifest themselves in longer fights. If a Fight ends in 15 seconds and I am dead or the enemy dead , HS did little and in such a fight if I am on the receiving end of high burst damage, I am better off with a fatter heal that can keep me in a fight rather then one that will allow me a few seconds more of life. In fights that last longer it is the second 15 seconds and third 15 seconds where HS becomes more effective. The reasons for this are simple exercises in mathematics coupled with how the game is played.

    When I am doing these tests to satisfy my own curiousity, I do not just run one build for a few hours in order to arrive at my conclusions. I will run a particular build for days in a row trying to make it work and changing up my style so as to ensure I am maximizing what I am able to do with it. I have plenty of time. I am not concerned if I get downed and have to start again. After every down whether I down an enemy or am the victim of one , I port back to a WP and pore through the logs to see what got me , what tells i missed and so on.

    I am going to suggest that they very PRESENCE of a metabattle site where people want to run to to get "the best build" demonstrates to me that many do not have the patience for this sort of gameplay. They want instant results.

    They "run" to it because its a good starting point. It helps you learn the strengths and weaknesses of your class because these builds are among the most solid that classes have access to and people run things other than the builds listed under "meta" specifically. Core builds as an example still work very well for some classes and are mostly still used in WvW but more rarely used in sPvP.

    I'm sure your builds work decently, I wouldn't dispute that. I see enough condi Berserkers or sometimes even Condi spellbreakers running around to know that they can sometimes be around and do something, but more often than not they fall completely flat up against a good player using one of, or a variant of, a build from Metabattle. Or I should say more accurately, a more meta oriented build.

    I almost exclusively play Core Warrior in WvW, even in groups, because its what I enjoy however I will swap into Spellbreaker in more group oriented fights and I will swap around Utility skills as needed to things that more suit what is needed in the fight. However I don't drastically try to reinvent the wheel, Warrior's strength is due to several factors. One is its mobility which is pretty much exclusive to Greatsword, thats why its used in pretty much any build you see. The Tetherbreaker build for Spellbreaker has the added benefit of the Sword 2 leap but even then it still uses greatsword. Second is its "invuln" states; Endure Pain, Defy Pain, Full Counter and Block (assuming unblockables aren't at play). These give the Warrior's method of sustain, usually Adrenal Health paired with Healing Signet, opportunities for them to heal and stay in the fight. Sometimes Mending is used should they need a more on demand heal with a short cooldown and some extra condi cleanse but thats typically in very specific circumstances. Otherwise these tools are what the Warrior thrives the best on while its best sustain is essentially locked behind playing with a sort of "passive aggressive" playstyle since those burst skills getting dodged can lead to a Warrior's swift death or early kiting.

    Condi Warrior isn't that strong in PvP due to it being associated with the very clunky Sword burst skill and Berserker being the "condi" spec for the class, yet it does not perform it well in PvP and the Berserker spec just isn't as great as it used to be even with a Power setup sadly (I do miss those days).

    You're free to run what you want, but I've been where you are with that whole mindset of "Meta is dumb" and "I don't need it, I can figure it all out myself" and its just plain arrogance. You're essentially trying to discredit the testing done by the individuals who post these builds while trying to say your testing is more appropriate or better because its you doing it and "you know better" and the people using meta builds are just looking for instant gratification. Which you know you're not entirely wrong there, people definitely gravitate towards these builds because they maybe see a youtuber or streamer using them and they want to emulate the success they see from that content creator, but more often than not they simply believe that running the build itself will make them better and that isn't true, they forget that they need to learn about why it is a strong build and improve mechanically in the game before they can emulate what they saw in a video. However that doesn't lower the value of using meta builds to learn, improve and then begin to experiment based on what you've learned by playing a build that is built upon the best strengths of a class. You're more easily able to diverge and find what can work for you and still allow you to fulfill the role that you should fill.

    This is the generic Warrior topic. The question was asked as to why warriors do not use other heals. This is not the PvP topic and the op did not ask why other heals not used in Pvp.

    The builds I mention work better then "decently" in WvW. I do not Pvp and do not care for that mode as the MODE shapes the builds and the design of that format too heavily forces a role (such as theif made for +1 and decap). The limited array of trinkets , runes and the like further limits what used in a build. If there three cars one wants to test and one is a dragster, one a formula 1 car and one an off road vehicle , forcing all three into running a race on a 1/2 mile straightaway does not prove the dragster "the best car".

    The builds I refer to work better then "decently". Part of what makes them work better for me is the heal which i decide to use and it not always HS.

    You resort to ad hominem and personal insutls to make your case. I offered up an opinion as to the utility of other heals in various builds and you took that as a personal attack. If I state I preferred the original Total Recall movie to the remake and you prefer the remake it not arrogance to suggest the first better and it not wrong to suggest that maybe a person should SEE the movie first before reading other reviews all claiming the remake was better.

    And I've said I'd like to see that shown, or at least witness it for myself and then I'd give more credence to what you're saying. I never disagreed that those heals have their own utility depending on the circumstances, and I had been approaching this from the OPs statement about wanting to main Warrior in pvp (this can mean sPvP or WvW). I will admit that I took a few shots at you, sure, but the statement on arrogance was not a personal attack. It was an observation. Note that I never disagreed on the utility of the heals, I disagreed with your logic when you spoke about your build concepts because I don't feel that these builds you describe are able to perform as adequately as others that are classified as more "meta". Essentially I dislike the logic you apply in practical application because I don't personally see it working as well as you claim.

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