Conjure weapon change — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Conjure weapon change

I read through a few post, and to no surprise people have thought about this way before me :)

Already a bif thanks for Anet to remove the “counters”.

I just feel that the time limite should be for your friends using them, and that our versions becomes more like kits or bundles.

Ofcourse it would need to change the damage numbers to balance it.
But it would also give us the “needed” “weapon swap”, so we could easier change “playstyle” according to the situation.

I would also suggest moving “conjure” trait from “Fire” to “Arcane”.
Then a few changes:

When a ally pick up your conjured weapon you both gain an aura of that weapons element.
You now summon two conjured weapons which last 15% longer.
Conjured weapons and kits has 20% reduced skill recharge (last one I always felt like a filler trait, like the dmg traits).

This is mere suggestion and I think with new elite or just how the game have change, people probably got better and more unique suggestions:)
I would like to hear them.

Comments

  • Those are some nice ideas. For the aura suggestion, unfortunately I dont think auras are useful enough to make it worth anything. If fire aura got buffed, then okay.

    Maybe to fix ele's lack of dps party support in raids, we could share the conjure's stat buffs with our allies (put it on a trait for example). It would have to be a fixed duration or something, so you arent forced to sit on a fgs all day.

    As for the ammo system, I think it would be enough to pick up the weapon from afar like thor. Make it so pressing the utility key a second time picks up the second conjure within a certain radius.

  • I didn’t think about the tele-grab mechanic, mostly because I just want it as a kit or something for the elemental.

    Well the aura would be able to play with other trait, but I think your idea might be more beneficial overall and not force people into trait, but still force them to group xD

  • @Burnhard Riemann.8650 said:
    As for the ammo system, I think it would be enough to pick up the weapon from afar like thor. Make it so pressing the utility key a second time picks up the second conjure within a certain radius.

    kitten, that would be epic.
    1. Instead of summoning the weapon at the target location, make it a projectile that damages anything it passes and then "sticks" in the target location.
    2. Allies can then pick up the weapon the same way they work now.
    3. Press the button again to call the weapon to you, which is another projectile like the first one.

    No skin should be exclusive to gem-store rng boxes.
    What really happened with mount skins

  • But I still think it should have a higher if not infinite uptime.

    With the right scaling I relly see no problem in a person running perma Lightning Hammer.
    Even with the additional stats

  • Dace.8173Dace.8173 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Making them more like kits or bundles really wouldn't improve them as they would face the same problem that Engineer kits face, being underpowered due to the fact that more than one can be carried.

  • @Dace.8173 said:
    Making them more like kits or bundles really wouldn't improve them as they would face the same problem that Engineer kits face, being underpowered due to the fact that more than one can be carried.

    I cannot see why it could not be buffed, just because you can carry more? I mean you lose utilities and all are on 60 sec CD.
    It should compliment your current weapon setup (melee for staff, or more range with bow, maybe extra defence from shield etc).
    And it would still grant the stats bonus, but maybe modified? (Depend on how much of an impact those small numbers really habe on the grand scale).

    But yeah if the same person making engineers kit balance have to convert conjured weapon, then I see the problem:)

  • Dace.8173Dace.8173 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Phoenix the One.4071 said:

    @Dace.8173 said:
    Making them more like kits or bundles really wouldn't improve them as they would face the same problem that Engineer kits face, being underpowered due to the fact that more than one can be carried.

    I cannot see why it could not be buffed, just because you can carry more? I mean you lose utilities and all are on 60 sec CD.
    It should compliment your current weapon setup (melee for staff, or more range with bow, maybe extra defence from shield etc).
    And it would still grant the stats bonus, but maybe modified? (Depend on how much of an impact those small numbers really habe on the grand scale).

    But yeah if the same person making engineers kit balance have to convert conjured weapon, then I see the problem:)

    Because they are weapon skills and you are effectively carrying another weapon for every kit you have. So if all of my utilities and my elite were kits I would effectively have 4 extra weapons on top of what I already have. That gives you a lot of power, more than anyone else would be able to carry. So to compensate for the fact that you can carry so many weapons the individual kits are a bit lower power than your standard weapons. The potential to be broken or OP is very high when you can carry that many weapons. It's made worse by the fact that Elementalist is already carrying a huge arsenal of weapon skills via attunements.

  • @Dace.8173 said:

    @Phoenix the One.4071 said:

    @Dace.8173 said:
    Making them more like kits or bundles really wouldn't improve them as they would face the same problem that Engineer kits face, being underpowered due to the fact that more than one can be carried.

    I cannot see why it could not be buffed, just because you can carry more? I mean you lose utilities and all are on 60 sec CD.
    It should compliment your current weapon setup (melee for staff, or more range with bow, maybe extra defence from shield etc).
    And it would still grant the stats bonus, but maybe modified? (Depend on how much of an impact those small numbers really habe on the grand scale).

    But yeah if the same person making engineers kit balance have to convert conjured weapon, then I see the problem:)

    Because they are weapon skills and you are effectively carrying another weapon for every kit you have. So if all of my utilities and my elite were kits I would effectively have 4 extra weapons on top of what I already have. That gives you a lot of power, more than anyone else would be able to carry. So to compensate for the fact that you can carry so many weapons the individual kits are a bit lower power than your standard weapons. The potential to be broken or OP is very high when you can carry that many weapons. It's made worse by the fact that Elementalist is already carrying a huge arsenal of weapon skills via attunements.

    I think I disagree with you on this one.
    Yes all the weapon would grant you lot of play room, and stuff to throw at your enemies, but I also feel the complexity will balance it out.
    I mean elementalist already suffer from the jack-of-all-trade view, and imo would be better of having role trait, rather than elemental traits.

    So yeah we got four attunements, but only room to focus on two-three, and then changing inbetween takes skills with macromanaging the CD.
    Throwing down the weapons and going back could put it on its 60 sec CD.

    But I do not think it ever gonna be a kit anyway, cause if that what they wanted, they would do so.
    I just wish we were a bit more versitile in combat and not just on paper :)

  • Dace.8173Dace.8173 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Phoenix the One.4071 said:

    @Dace.8173 said:

    @Phoenix the One.4071 said:

    @Dace.8173 said:
    Making them more like kits or bundles really wouldn't improve them as they would face the same problem that Engineer kits face, being underpowered due to the fact that more than one can be carried.

    I cannot see why it could not be buffed, just because you can carry more? I mean you lose utilities and all are on 60 sec CD.
    It should compliment your current weapon setup (melee for staff, or more range with bow, maybe extra defence from shield etc).
    And it would still grant the stats bonus, but maybe modified? (Depend on how much of an impact those small numbers really habe on the grand scale).

    But yeah if the same person making engineers kit balance have to convert conjured weapon, then I see the problem:)

    Because they are weapon skills and you are effectively carrying another weapon for every kit you have. So if all of my utilities and my elite were kits I would effectively have 4 extra weapons on top of what I already have. That gives you a lot of power, more than anyone else would be able to carry. So to compensate for the fact that you can carry so many weapons the individual kits are a bit lower power than your standard weapons. The potential to be broken or OP is very high when you can carry that many weapons. It's made worse by the fact that Elementalist is already carrying a huge arsenal of weapon skills via attunements.

    I think I disagree with you on this one.
    Yes all the weapon would grant you lot of play room, and stuff to throw at your enemies, but I also feel the complexity will balance it out.
    I mean elementalist already suffer from the jack-of-all-trade view, and imo would be better of having role trait, rather than elemental traits.

    So yeah we got four attunements, but only room to focus on two-three, and then changing inbetween takes skills with macromanaging the CD.
    Throwing down the weapons and going back could put it on its 60 sec CD.

    But I do not think it ever gonna be a kit anyway, cause if that what they wanted, they would do so.
    I just wish we were a bit more versitile in combat and not just on paper :)

    You're free to disagree but you are still wrong. We already see how kits work in play and the power level they grant. We already see how kits are actually balanced. There isn't anything you can say about how you think the balance could be compensated that supersedes the fact that we have proof via Engineer what having kits actually looks like for a profession in play. The evidence on the issue stands against you.

  • lLobo.7960lLobo.7960 Member ✭✭✭

    Turning conjures into kits is a terrible idea thematically, mechanically and balance-wise.

    Thematically they are something you conjure to use. The conjuring have a refresh time and lasts only for a certain time. But you can conjure a weapon for someone else. A kit is something that you have there at your hands and can use at any time, for any amount of time.
    Mechanically the conjure is a utility that gives you a set of skills and a buff for a certain amount of time. It can be a way to have different attacks while at certain attunements (like the old water camping LH dungeon build).
    Balance-wise, this limitation gives the conjure the chance to have powerful skills, since their use is limited. If you use the conjure for a single powerful skill and drop it, that skill now has a long CD, as it is locked behind the conjure utility timer, while if you keep the conjure to use that skill again when itself comes out of CD, you are locked out of your other weapon skills. A kit on the other hand means you will trade a utility skill for a weapon slot with no weapon swap CD, they are therefor balanced differently, as every skill can be used on CD since there is no CD on equipping the kit.

    So although turning conjures into kits would be great for ele rotations, it would likely make them weaker to balance (look at the difference between FGS and mortar).

    I much prefer the conjure skills to use the ammo system, with two charges each. The skill summon only one conjure at the target location, if the caster is inside the target, then it summons on the caster hands. Then turn conjurer trait to reduce the charge recharge and increase the buffs given.

    This would keep the flavor and utility of the conjures while also making it much better to fit into the gameplay (since you don't need to pick up from the floor).

  • So with ammo skill you will have ?% uptime?
    I can see the atic it would suit way better, I just like using kits as an exemple since people often know them from engineer.
    By no mean do I got the solution, I just try to keep this debat open, so Anet maybe notice it.
    Cause I feel they could potentional be relaly cool, especially with some great traits in arcane.
    And then again I remember them actually being in meta once.

    I never tries to be right nor wrong, and though I might end up being “wrong” in most people pov, I still try to keep it to opinion.
    Ofc we cannot ignore evidence, but we do not have limite us by them in this discussion.
    Since I see it more like a brainstorming.
    Lobos suggestion is already imo better than my own, but maybe we could find an even cooler idea :)?

  • Dace.8173Dace.8173 Member ✭✭✭✭

    In this instance, we can declare right or wrong because we have mechanical proof. An opinion is for something that could go either way in which we don't know for certain what the facts are. We know the facts in this instance. A person can be wrong if they make a statement that goes against the evidence. If the evidence says that things work a specific way then they work that way and no one's opinion contrary to that would change the factual situation. We factually know that having access to kits lowers the overall power level of those kits. This isn't an opinion. This isn't a POV. This is how the game actually works.

    You're free to brainstorm but if a person ignores the evidence in favor of claiming this is a POV issue or an opinion then there is no real point in brainstorming as there is no factual basis from which to have a conversation on. Brainstorming falls apart of the facts of the situation are not acknowledged. We know how kits work and are balanced (it's not an opinion, go play Engineer and you will see how it is balanced), to ignore that means that you're invested in having your ideas praised as opposed to finding a real solution.

  • lLobo.7960lLobo.7960 Member ✭✭✭

    @Phoenix the One.4071 said:
    So with ammo skill you will have ?% uptime?

    You can have 100% uptime if you don't drop them for their full duration (like it is now if you don't drop them, and pick the second conjure up just at the right time), except for FGS that has a longer recharge.

    @Phoenix the One.4071 said:
    And then again I remember them actually being in meta once.

    Conjures have been meta since one ele melted a boss in CoF years ago. They are still meta since then (Instanced PvE and some cases in WvW and PvP for FGS). They have powerful skills that are worth the slots even if just to use it once. Turning them to kits would likely make those skills less powerful (as they would be able to be used any time without the conjure CD) or make them very OP if no changes are made.

  • @lLobo.7960 said:

    @Phoenix the One.4071 said:
    So with ammo skill you will have ?% uptime?

    You can have 100% uptime if you don't drop them for their full duration (like it is now if you don't drop them, and pick the second conjure up just at the right time), except for FGS that has a longer recharge.

    @Phoenix the One.4071 said:
    And then again I remember them actually being in meta once.

    Conjures have been meta since one ele melted a boss in CoF years ago. They are still meta since then (Instanced PvE and some cases in WvW and PvP for FGS). They have powerful skills that are worth the slots even if just to use it once. Turning them to kits would likely make those skills less powerful (as they would be able to be used any time without the conjure CD) or make them very OP if no changes are made.

    I see that sounds like the idea I was looking for then.
    But would it not be too OP with 100% uptime then? (As it would still be like kits?)

    Yeah I think I never really took the current skills into account, since I think they needed to rework the concept of Conjure weapons, had they made it into something else (like ammo, kits, bundles etc.).

    And I never meant it to be OP, more as a “freedom” for elementalist to have the option to go range if it was needed.
    I always thought that attunement should hve been given us the option to go range or melee offence (fire or lightning), active defence or healing (water and earth), which we kinda have in some way (dagger skills).

  • @Dace.8173 said:
    In this instance, we can declare right or wrong because we have mechanical proof. An opinion is for something that could go either way in which we don't know for certain what the facts are. We know the facts in this instance. A person can be wrong if they make a statement that goes against the evidence. If the evidence says that things work a specific way then they work that way and no one's opinion contrary to that would change the factual situation. We factually know that having access to kits lowers the overall power level of those kits. This isn't an opinion. This isn't a POV. This is how the game actually works.

    You're free to brainstorm but if a person ignores the evidence in favor of claiming this is a POV issue or an opinion then there is no real point in brainstorming as there is no factual basis from which to have a conversation on. Brainstorming falls apart of the facts of the situation are not acknowledged. We know how kits work and are balanced (it's not an opinion, go play Engineer and you will see how it is balanced), to ignore that means that you're invested in having your ideas praised as opposed to finding a real solution.

    I see I stand corrected then :) I might have been blinded by the whole idea of my own wished to 100% uptime and fantasy on it being able to be both balanced and usefull.
    Thank you for clearing that out :)

  • lLobo.7960lLobo.7960 Member ✭✭✭

    @Phoenix the One.4071 said:
    But would it not be too OP with 100% uptime then? (As it would still be like kits?)

    You can already have 100% uptime with them if you pick them up at the right time. The thing is, if you want to keep them for their full duration, you are locked out of your normal skills (all 20 of them) so its a big trade-off. With kits this trade-off wouldn't exist as there would be no CD on swapping to a kit. The change to ammo and one conjure per cast (in the ground or at your hands if you are in the AoE) wouldn't change much the functionality or limitations of the conjure, just make it less clunky (wouldn't need to pick it up from the floor).

    @Phoenix the One.4071 said:
    I always thought that attunement should hve been given us the option to go range or melee offence (fire or lightning), active defence or healing (water and earth), which we kinda have in some way (dagger skills).

    You can go melee with any ranged weapon. Staff and scepter work in melee just as much as they do at range. Dagger and sword both have good chasing skills to keep up with opponents. There is no real need to swap between range and melee in this game. You can easily do range weapons at melee and disengage and re-engage with melee weapons.

  • Stallic.2397Stallic.2397 Member ✭✭✭

    @lLobo.7960 said:
    You can go melee with any ranged weapon. Staff and scepter work in melee just as much as they do at range. Dagger and sword both have good chasing skills to keep up with opponents. There is no real need to swap between range and melee in this game. You can easily do range weapons at melee and disengage and re-engage with melee weapons.

    Eh, dagger has great chasing like forward evades and leaps, but given the tremendous amount of teleports and leaps other professions have, it's still tough to keep up. Swapping to 900 range, or even 1200 if a conjure ever offered that, would be the missing link plenty of ele builds need.

    Ammo, kit, bundle, or whatever mechanic conjure goes under, it should be instant instead of the lagging swap it is now. I'm thinking of rock shield mostly, which grants invulnerability, a block, and barrier application. It's a great weapon, but impossible to use in sPvp given it's activation time.

  • @lLobo.7960 said:

    @Phoenix the One.4071 said:
    But would it not be too OP with 100% uptime then? (As it would still be like kits?)

    You can already have 100% uptime with them if you pick them up at the right time. The thing is, if you want to keep them for their full duration, you are locked out of your normal skills (all 20 of them) so its a big trade-off. With kits this trade-off wouldn't exist as there would be no CD on swapping to a kit. The change to ammo and one conjure per cast (in the ground or at your hands if you are in the AoE) wouldn't change much the functionality or limitations of the conjure, just make it less clunky (wouldn't need to pick it up from the floor).

    @Phoenix the One.4071 said:
    I always thought that attunement should hve been given us the option to go range or melee offence (fire or lightning), active defence or healing (water and earth), which we kinda have in some way (dagger skills).

    You can go melee with any ranged weapon. Staff and scepter work in melee just as much as they do at range. Dagger and sword both have good chasing skills to keep up with opponents. There is no real need to swap between range and melee in this game. You can easily do range weapons at melee and disengage and re-engage with melee weapons.

    Ohh I never said there should be no CD between swapping in kits.
    I just think I was clumpsy in my explaination. And that people misunderstood my intension.
    I do not want it to be OP, and if one can already have 100% uptime, that’s great :)
    So ammo system would work wonder.

    It was mere an e.g. On changes with the attunement. But I would have no problem with as they are now, just with endless life time, the minut you change, bum 60CD:)
    So srry for the confusion.

    To adress the other thing about range and melee, yep ranged weapon can “work” in melee, but melee cannot be range.
    Do the got some gap-closers? Yep, but sp does staff :) gap-closers =|= range.
    And in a some isnatnces you want to change to range in combat, they might be rare, but I utilize weapon swapping a lot :)
    Even on my little engineer do I change a lot between kits (been a long time, we never clicked as a profession).

  • I just really don't see the point in dropping the conjure weapons. I understand that in the past they were used to "help" your allies, however, no one uses it for that particular reason, not even the earth shield as a support option. I think that making them like a tool kit would be the best thing , as when slotted you don't have to run back to pick them up, and best of all no one else picks them! Not sure why Anet gavet an elite where others can pick it up at a 180 sec cool down like are you serious?

  • Dace.8173Dace.8173 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 7, 2018

    @Stallic.2397 said:

    @lLobo.7960 said:
    You can go melee with any ranged weapon. Staff and scepter work in melee just as much as they do at range. Dagger and sword both have good chasing skills to keep up with opponents. There is no real need to swap between range and melee in this game. You can easily do range weapons at melee and disengage and re-engage with melee weapons.

    Eh, dagger has great chasing like forward evades and leaps, but given the tremendous amount of teleports and leaps other professions have, it's still tough to keep up. Swapping to 900 range, or even 1200 if a conjure ever offered that, would be the missing link plenty of ele builds need.

    Ammo, kit, bundle, or whatever mechanic conjure goes under, it should be instant instead of the lagging swap it is now. I'm thinking of rock shield mostly, which grants invulnerability, a block, and barrier application. It's a great weapon, but impossible to use in sPvp given it's activation time.

    Not every weapon/skill needs to be useful in PvP so long as they have a use somewhere in the game.

    @Zelse.9780 said:
    I just really don't see the point in dropping the conjure weapons. I understand that in the past they were used to "help" your allies, however, no one uses it for that particular reason, not even the earth shield as a support option. I think that making them like a tool kit would be the best thing , as when slotted you don't have to run back to pick them up, and best of all no one else picks them! Not sure why Anet gavet an elite where others can pick it up at a 180 sec cool down like are you serious?

    Dropping them for allies gives them a nice thematic feel and makes them more useful overall. However, using them in that way is really not for PUGing or PvP. It works best when you are playing with people you know, with whom you can coordinate attacks. Making them like a toolkit would still have the end result of their power being nerfed. I've been making heavy use of Conjure skills as of late on my sword Weaver build since Conjure Frost Bow and Conjure Flame Axe make great long range support for a melee build. I think one of three things would improve them: A. Keep the current recharge but turn them into an ammo skill, B. keep the skill itself the same but reduce the cooldown on it by half, C. keep everything else on it the same but increase the duration you can use it. As a weapon that doesn't have unlimited uses, they can be stronger than kits since they have a shorter life than the always-on possibility that kits provide.

  • Zelse.9780Zelse.9780 Member ✭✭
    edited December 7, 2018

    @Dace.8173 said:

    @Stallic.2397 said:

    @lLobo.7960 said:
    You can go melee with any ranged weapon. Staff and scepter work in melee just as much as they do at range. Dagger and sword both have good chasing skills to keep up with opponents. There is no real need to swap between range and melee in this game. You can easily do range weapons at melee and disengage and re-engage with melee weapons.

    Eh, dagger has great chasing like forward evades and leaps, but given the tremendous amount of teleports and leaps other professions have, it's still tough to keep up. Swapping to 900 range, or even 1200 if a conjure ever offered that, would be the missing link plenty of ele builds need.

    Ammo, kit, bundle, or whatever mechanic conjure goes under, it should be instant instead of the lagging swap it is now. I'm thinking of rock shield mostly, which grants invulnerability, a block, and barrier application. It's a great weapon, but impossible to use in sPvp given it's activation time.

    Not every weapon/skill needs to be useful in PvP so long as they have a use somewhere in the game.

    @Zelse.9780 said:
    I just really don't see the point in dropping the conjure weapons. I understand that in the past they were used to "help" your allies, however, no one uses it for that particular reason, not even the earth shield as a support option. I think that making them like a tool kit would be the best thing , as when slotted you don't have to run back to pick them up, and best of all no one else picks them! Not sure why Anet gavet an elite where others can pick it up at a 180 sec cool down like are you serious?

    Dropping them for allies gives them a nice thematic feel and makes them more useful overall. However, using them in that way is really not for PUGing or PvP. It works best when you are playing with people you know, with whom you can coordinate attacks. Making them like a toolkit would still have the end result of their power being nerfed. I've been making heavy use of Conjure skills as of late on my sword Weaver build since Conjure Frost Bow and Conjure Flame Axe make great long range support for a melee build. I think one of three things would improve them: A. Keep the current recharge but turn them into an ammo skill, B. keep the skill itself the same but reduce the cooldown on it by half, C. keep everything else on it the same but increase the duration you can use it. As a weapon that doesn't have unlimited uses, they can be stronger than kits since they have a shorter life than the always-on possibility that kits provide.

    I think elementalist as a whole got nerfed to the ground aside from sword weaver. I speak on behalf of the staff users who heavily rely on our conjur weapons to keep us afloat in relevancy. Not sure what changes the ammo skill adds other then to drop more of them at different intervals, or if you just want to drop more for people to pick up. There are internal cooldowns on the conjur weapon skills and as of now the rotations are just fine with the cooldown when it comes to personal DPS, so making them an ammo skill is just redundant and fixes absolutely nothing about the bigger issue with the conjure weapons as a whole. Also increasing duration you can use it also fixes nothing, as we only use them for only 1 skill before swapping to maintain our dps, everything about the conjure weapon other then that 1 skill is not worth using. Having it as a tool kit fixes the issue of 1 being a clunky utility, and also being situational (like you said about pugging and or pvp) which if they were used as tool kits would possibly be used in pvp. I think the good elementalist can time the internal cooldowns mentally on when certain skills will be up on their conjure of choice, and to swap to that particular conjure when certain skills are required fixes the situational part of what the conjure weapons bring as a whole when it comes to utility.

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dace.8173 said:

    @Stallic.2397 said:
    Eh, dagger has great chasing like forward evades and leaps, but given the tremendous amount of teleports and leaps other professions have, it's still tough to keep up. Swapping to 900 range, or even 1200 if a conjure ever offered that, would be the missing link plenty of ele builds need.

    Ammo, kit, bundle, or whatever mechanic conjure goes under, it should be instant instead of the lagging swap it is now. I'm thinking of rock shield mostly, which grants invulnerability, a block, and barrier application. It's a great weapon, but impossible to use in sPvp given it's activation time.

    Not every weapon/skill needs to be useful in PvP so long as they have a use somewhere in the game.

    I have yet to see conjure earth shield and conjure fiery axe having some use somewhere in the game. Yes Lightning hammer, frost bow and FGS somehow manage to be used for very specific content, often making a mojority of their skill pointless, but earth shield which could be a good defensive skillset and fiery axe just don't have any use anywhere. The conjuration of the earth shield hurt the skillset to it's very core while fiery axe never managed to provide skills interesting enough to see some use in any content.

  • apharma.3741apharma.3741 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 9, 2018

    To be honest I think the best way to deal with conjured weapons is to remove the ability to give them to other people. Yes it's a unique aspect gone but then ANet could actually make them decent by making them kits with something like a 15s recharge on popping in and out of them.

    Makes it easier for PvE rotations and you can then add traits/effects to them like stunbreak on entering earth shield, AoE heal/cleanse on icebow etc. You also don't have to worry about any doubling up problems in the future where the ele + a friend abuse a weird buff to a conjured weapon skill that makes it unfun.

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @apharma.3741 said:
    To be honest I think the best way to deal with conjured weapons is to remove the ability to give them to other people. Yes it's a unique aspect gone but then ANet could actually make them decent by making them kits with something like a 15s recharge on popping in and out of them.

    Makes it easier for PvE rotations and you can then add traits/effects to them like stunbreak on entering earth shield, AoE heal/cleanse on icebow etc. You also don't have to worry about any doubling up problems in the future where the ele + a friend abuse a weird buff to a conjured weapon skill that makes it unfun.

    I'd add that even 30s CD and bringing back the "charges" would be fine if it mean bringing this much needed QoL on those skillsets.

  • Dace.8173Dace.8173 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Zelse.9780 said:

    @Dace.8173 said:

    @Stallic.2397 said:

    @lLobo.7960 said:
    You can go melee with any ranged weapon. Staff and scepter work in melee just as much as they do at range. Dagger and sword both have good chasing skills to keep up with opponents. There is no real need to swap between range and melee in this game. You can easily do range weapons at melee and disengage and re-engage with melee weapons.

    Eh, dagger has great chasing like forward evades and leaps, but given the tremendous amount of teleports and leaps other professions have, it's still tough to keep up. Swapping to 900 range, or even 1200 if a conjure ever offered that, would be the missing link plenty of ele builds need.

    Ammo, kit, bundle, or whatever mechanic conjure goes under, it should be instant instead of the lagging swap it is now. I'm thinking of rock shield mostly, which grants invulnerability, a block, and barrier application. It's a great weapon, but impossible to use in sPvp given it's activation time.

    Not every weapon/skill needs to be useful in PvP so long as they have a use somewhere in the game.

    @Zelse.9780 said:
    I just really don't see the point in dropping the conjure weapons. I understand that in the past they were used to "help" your allies, however, no one uses it for that particular reason, not even the earth shield as a support option. I think that making them like a tool kit would be the best thing , as when slotted you don't have to run back to pick them up, and best of all no one else picks them! Not sure why Anet gavet an elite where others can pick it up at a 180 sec cool down like are you serious?

    Dropping them for allies gives them a nice thematic feel and makes them more useful overall. However, using them in that way is really not for PUGing or PvP. It works best when you are playing with people you know, with whom you can coordinate attacks. Making them like a toolkit would still have the end result of their power being nerfed. I've been making heavy use of Conjure skills as of late on my sword Weaver build since Conjure Frost Bow and Conjure Flame Axe make great long range support for a melee build. I think one of three things would improve them: A. Keep the current recharge but turn them into an ammo skill, B. keep the skill itself the same but reduce the cooldown on it by half, C. keep everything else on it the same but increase the duration you can use it. As a weapon that doesn't have unlimited uses, they can be stronger than kits since they have a shorter life than the always-on possibility that kits provide.

    I think elementalist as a whole got nerfed to the ground aside from sword weaver. I speak on behalf of the staff users who heavily rely on our conjur weapons to keep us afloat in relevancy. Not sure what changes the ammo skill adds other then to drop more of them at different intervals, or if you just want to drop more for people to pick up. There are internal cooldowns on the conjur weapon skills and as of now the rotations are just fine with the cooldown when it comes to personal DPS, so making them an ammo skill is just redundant and fixes absolutely nothing about the bigger issue with the conjure weapons as a whole. Also increasing duration you can use it also fixes nothing, as we only use them for only 1 skill before swapping to maintain our dps, everything about the conjure weapon other then that 1 skill is not worth using. Having it as a tool kit fixes the issue of 1 being a clunky utility, and also being situational (like you said about pugging and or pvp) which if they were used as tool kits would possibly be used in pvp. I think the good elementalist can time the internal cooldowns mentally on when certain skills will be up on their conjure of choice, and to swap to that particular conjure when certain skills are required fixes the situational part of what the conjure weapons bring as a whole when it comes to utility.

    I tend to think ammo works better because it isn't as near constant as kit offers and I still see kit as problematic in terms of the power it offers the weapon set.

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Dace.8173 said:

    @Stallic.2397 said:
    Eh, dagger has great chasing like forward evades and leaps, but given the tremendous amount of teleports and leaps other professions have, it's still tough to keep up. Swapping to 900 range, or even 1200 if a conjure ever offered that, would be the missing link plenty of ele builds need.

    Ammo, kit, bundle, or whatever mechanic conjure goes under, it should be instant instead of the lagging swap it is now. I'm thinking of rock shield mostly, which grants invulnerability, a block, and barrier application. It's a great weapon, but impossible to use in sPvp given it's activation time.

    Not every weapon/skill needs to be useful in PvP so long as they have a use somewhere in the game.

    I have yet to see conjure earth shield and conjure fiery axe having some use somewhere in the game. Yes Lightning hammer, frost bow and FGS somehow manage to be used for very specific content, often making a mojority of their skill pointless, but earth shield which could be a good defensive skillset and fiery axe just don't have any use anywhere. The conjuration of the earth shield hurt the skillset to it's very core while fiery axe never managed to provide skills interesting enough to see some use in any content.

    Fair. My overall point was that it didn't need to be a PvP so long as it has a use. If it has no use anywhere then clearly that needs to change.

    @apharma.3741 said:
    To be honest I think the best way to deal with conjured weapons is to remove the ability to give them to other people. Yes it's a unique aspect gone but then ANet could actually make them decent by making them kits with something like a 15s recharge on popping in and out of them.

    Makes it easier for PvE rotations and you can then add traits/effects to them like stunbreak on entering earth shield, AoE heal/cleanse on icebow etc. You also don't have to worry about any doubling up problems in the future where the ele + a friend abuse a weird buff to a conjured weapon skill that makes it unfun.

    If they made them kits though you'd still have power issues. One of the problem Engineer kits faces is that some of them are underpowered due to the fact that you can stack more than one kit at a time and you can leave it on for as long as you need. It's one of the reasons why some of us feel that kits should have been worked in as a class mechanic that occupied the F5 slot so that it worked as a thematic selectable weapon swap. With fewer kits interacting indivudal kits would allowed to be powered up.

    All the issues Engineer faces with their kits Elementalist would face if their Conjure skills were kits as well. I don't see that as an improvement on the current situation. You'd like still have one or two good ones and one or two bad ones. I also don't see them improving Conjure skills just on the fact that they removed its ability to be useable by others. I really don't see that as what limits Conjure skills.

    I think one of the things that plague skills like these is the way they can interact with themselves and the fact that you can carry more than one at a time, thus giving you more weapon swaps than other people but also differing effects that no one else could theoretically compete with. In that regard, I think this mechanic type should have been worked in as a profession mechanic that rested on the F5 slot, giving you access to one but that one being stronger than it otherwise would have been.

    I just don't see them going that far though.

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dace.8173 said:
    All the issues Engineer faces with their kits Elementalist would face if their Conjure skills were kits as well. I don't see that as an improvement on the current situation. You'd like still have one or two good ones and one or two bad ones. I also don't see them improving Conjure skills just on the fact that they removed its ability to be useable by others. I really don't see that as what limits Conjure skills.

    What limit conjure skills:

    • cast time/"targeting" when you conjure the weapon: This make the "conjuring" slow and unresponsive, only really worse taking the risk to use them in a PvE environment where you are sheltered by allies. In other game modes the lack of QoL make the conjuration unsafe and only really worse using for fleeing or chasing.
    • Uptime/freedom in use: The elementalist rely a lot on element swaping in a dynamic gameplay that make use quickly of a lot of different skillsets. Conjures lock the elementalist out of these different skillsets which cripple it's fastpace, making the elementalist unresponsive as well. The lack of the ability to go in and out of the conjure skillsets make it extremly difficult for elementalist to sacrifice an utility slot that will lock them out of their dynamic.

    Changing "conjures" into "kits" would remove the unresponsiveness of the "conjure skillsets and allow elementalists to gain ease their ability to answer range issues in their fights. All in all, there is no need for the skillset to be improved, making them into "kits" just already make them more responsive and thus usable in a wider array of situations.

    NB.: Fiery axe skillset being trash isn't new and ANet often buff it meaninglessly to see if somehow someone will end up making use of it. The issue of the skillset being mainly skills design and responsiveness of the skills, adding more damage or boons on it like they do is just useless.

  • apharma.3741apharma.3741 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Dace.8173 said:
    All the issues Engineer faces with their kits Elementalist would face if their Conjure skills were kits as well. I don't see that as an improvement on the current situation. You'd like still have one or two good ones and one or two bad ones. I also don't see them improving Conjure skills just on the fact that they removed its ability to be useable by others. I really don't see that as what limits Conjure skills.

    What limit conjure skills:

    • cast time/"targeting" when you conjure the weapon: This make the "conjuring" slow and unresponsive, only really worse taking the risk to use them in a PvE environment where you are sheltered by allies. In other game modes the lack of QoL make the conjuration unsafe and only really worse using for fleeing or chasing.
    • Uptime/freedom in use: The elementalist rely a lot on element swaping in a dynamic gameplay that make use quickly of a lot of different skillsets. Conjures lock the elementalist out of these different skillsets which cripple it's fastpace, making the elementalist unresponsive as well. The lack of the ability to go in and out of the conjure skillsets make it extremly difficult for elementalist to sacrifice an utility slot that will lock them out of their dynamic.

    Changing "conjures" into "kits" would remove the unresponsiveness of the "conjure skillsets and allow elementalists to gain ease their ability to answer range issues in their fights. All in all, there is no need for the skillset to be improved, making them into "kits" just already make them more responsive and thus usable in a wider array of situations.

    NB.: Fiery axe skillset being trash isn't new and ANet often buff it meaninglessly to see if somehow someone will end up making use of it. The issue of the skillset being mainly skills design and responsiveness of the skills, adding more damage or boons on it like they do is just useless.

    I think what hurts the conjures more than anything is that they lack purity of purpose as ANet called it.
    Earth shield is in an OK state after the changes but don't really know why it has bleeds on it.
    Frostbow doesn't know if it wants to do insane damage, healing or whatever and gives bonuses to boon duration and healing but gives no boons and only heals on auto?!
    Flame axe is power and condition damage but lacks cover conditions, only 3 skills apply burn, 2 are low duration and the power mods are bizarrely low kinda slow too.
    Lightning hammer is actually decent if you tune up the aftercasts and reduce a couple of the cool downs and cast times by 1/4s-1/2s.
    Fiery Greatsword is....largely a mobility aide due to it's massive cool down and as you mentioned locking out of weapon skills but the skills are pretty decent except fiery eruption needs a lower cast time. There's also a lot of overlap with flame axe, maybe it would be interesting to make it an elemental GS and it's skills change a little depending on your element and you can change the particle effects to reflect that, water = water bubbles, air = electricity, earth has dirt particles.

    The other issue is the cool down where it's way too for single use and the game is mobile so you don't get the use out of the 2nd conjure in PvP/WvW. I don't want them to become exactly like kits where you hop into it to use a skill then back to weapon skills, some form of cool down fits ele and allows them to be useful and powerful without turning ele into engy for PvE because we all know that's what would happen if they were exactly like kits. I don't think they can keep the giving to allies aspect and have lower cool downs.

    I'd also like the conjure trait to be a better trait, maybe make each conjure do something unique and fitting the theme on cast like earth shield stunbreaks for you and allies, frostbow heals and cleanses, flame axe does a high damage and burn explosion, lightning hammer casts lightning rod on everyone in 600 range, FGS creates a storm around you for a few seconds.

  • Zenix.6198Zenix.6198 Member ✭✭✭

    Personally I dont care much for the "for allies to pick up"-mechanic. If you are not familiar with the conjure skills, you will be hesitant to use it as a third player.
    And for organized PvE content, picking up your own conjure is just too woven into the ele rotations, that people usually know not to "steal" them anyway.

    I dont like the idea of a kit either and the idea of dropping the conjure on the ground although you will be the one picking it up eventually anyway makes them weird as well. Like if you dont pick em up within 30 seconds they vanish, and if the encounter is designed to move often, its often weird to decide on where to drop it.

    So imo.....just drop the "for allies to pick up"-mechanic, give the conjure skills 2 charges and be done with it.

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