Do raids need easy/normal/hard difficulty mode? [merged] - Page 85 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Do raids need easy/normal/hard difficulty mode? [merged]

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  • mindcircus.1506mindcircus.1506 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Mount skins were absolutely NOT called pay to win. There is/was no winning. You are intentionally mixing loot boxes and the disdain over this kind of content implementation with pay to win, when those are 2 completely different issues even if they occasionally go hand in hand.

    Actually they were indeed called Pay to Win by a number of people.
    The argument was:
    "The only real endgame in Gw2 is fashion, therefore locking customization behind a paywall is P2W"
    It was/is a ridiculous argument to be sure but it was screamed out pretty loudly by some of the more entitled. Wooden Potatoes even addressed the point of view in his video when the whole gong show was at it's peak.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @mindcircus.1506 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Mount skins were absolutely NOT called pay to win. There is/was no winning. You are intentionally mixing loot boxes and the disdain over this kind of content implementation with pay to win, when those are 2 completely different issues even if they occasionally go hand in hand.

    Actually they were indeed called Pay to Win by a number of people.
    The argument was:
    "The only real endgame in Gw2 is fashion, therefore locking customization behind a paywall is P2W"
    It was/is a ridiculous argument to be sure but it was screamed out pretty loudly by some of the more entitled. Wooden Potatoes even addressed the point of view in his video when the whole gong show was at it's peak.

    Well now we would have to get into what are reasonable arguments and what is unreasonable noise. Might there have been some few who have said something utterly stupid? Sure, but was that in any way related to the main issue or problem at hand? No.

    Portraying it in a way that pay to win was a big deal and drawing on peoples mistrust and dislike of loot boxes when talking about mounts is misleading when it comes to mounts.

  • We need both easy and hard modes

    @yann.1946 said:

    @Jamie.4130 said:
    Mostly I think an easy mode would be fine to bring more enjoyment to the community due to the people who either don't have time to raid, can't learn to raid, or don't have the skills to raid. I understand that bringing the elite endgame content to the majority of the player base has issues like LFR on WoW, but I don't see it as much of an issue under a few conditions. The conditions that should be met to consider doing an easy mode and hard mode is that:
    1. Hard mode has to have very lucrative and exclusive rewards that easy mode can never and will never match in order for the elite player base to still feel rewarded in doing this content
    2. Easy mode has to be challenging enough that it makes strategy important to completion, much like how raids are now but with a removal of some mechanics or bosses altogether that make it easier to complete than hard mode.
    3. Possibly introduce a new tier of gear for hard mode raids that is superior to current ascended gear sets while keeping easy mode at the current level of gear
    This obviously means that some parts of the game would need to be tweaked, remade, coded differently, and that means time and money for ArenaNet. And I would honestly be fine if this feature was not introduced either way.

    Point 3 would be a ridiculous bad idea. Lack of gear grind was a big motivation to try this game out

    Yeah I see your point. I was just thinking that it could be a way to give hardcore raiders an incentive to raid over the more casual audience. but it could be something else. Just giving ideas

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭
    We need both easy and hard modes

    With the new festival mini raid with Wintersday(extremely fun) is Anet potentially using this opportunity to test the waters for a possible story mode raids? I noticed many different raid mechanics happening during the fight.

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    With the new festival mini raid with Wintersday(extremely fun) is Anet potentially using this opportunity to test the waters for a possible story mode raids? I noticed many different raid mechanics happening during the fight.

    Nope, they're not.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @Vinceman.4572 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    With the new festival mini raid with Wintersday(extremely fun) is Anet potentially using this opportunity to test the waters for a possible story mode raids? I noticed many different raid mechanics happening during the fight.

    Nope, they're not.

    Ya never know, I guess, 😉

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Vinceman.4572 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    With the new festival mini raid with Wintersday(extremely fun) is Anet potentially using this opportunity to test the waters for a possible story mode raids? I noticed many different raid mechanics happening during the fight.

    Nope, they're not.

    Ya never know, I guess, 😉

    Yeah, right, but we haven't seen anything from Anet that was highly unexpected. Since the latest answer was like: "We don't have any plans about an easy mode raid.", I still doubt that easy mode raids have any (high) relevance for the dev team at the moment.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids have problems, but we need a better solution

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    With the new festival mini raid with Wintersday(extremely fun) is Anet potentially using this opportunity to test the waters for a possible story mode raids? I noticed many different raid mechanics happening during the fight.

    For a possible story mode for Raids? No, that's like saying the open world VG or open world Slothasor were made for a similar purpose. But for giving people a taste of Raids? That's probably a good reason to add it. See what 10-man content is all about. I guess it will all depend in the success of it, how many will like/play the content. Furthermore, it's a great opportunity, at least for those asking for easier Raids, to prove that they are worth the effort. Meaning how many more players, than those actively raiding, will play/finish this content, how many non-raiders are actually interested in easier 10-man content. Time will tell I guess.

  • Blaeys.3102Blaeys.3102 Member ✭✭✭
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    With the new festival mini raid with Wintersday(extremely fun) is Anet potentially using this opportunity to test the waters for a possible story mode raids? I noticed many different raid mechanics happening during the fight.

    I think the new Wintersday instance does show that easy mode raids would be both popular and valid, but I - unfortunately - doubt this is the thinking at Arenanet. They have made it clear that the company is suffering from a lack of development resources (most recently illustrated by yet another delay for open world content), so raids in general have to fall down the priority list.

    That said, if they ever do free up resources to do something more with raids, I think this "mini raid" offers them valuable data and information on the direction they should take. An easy mode raid would work (because it is working in game right now with this instance) and it would be something they could keep active alongside the current raid versions (with the proper resources, of course).

    Now, it could have been an internal test to see how much they could realistically do in this direction with the resources they have - but, again, giving the delays with living stories, I would think they would look at others areas to improve first.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 14, 2018
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Blaeys.3102 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    With the new festival mini raid with Wintersday(extremely fun) is Anet potentially using this opportunity to test the waters for a possible story mode raids? I noticed many different raid mechanics happening during the fight.

    I think the new Wintersday instance does show that easy mode raids would be both popular and valid, but I - unfortunately - doubt this is the thinking at Arenanet. They have made it clear that the company is suffering from a lack of development resources (most recently illustrated by yet another delay for open world content), so raids in general have to fall down the priority list.

    That said, if they ever do free up resources to do something more with raids, I think this "mini raid" offers them valuable data and information on the direction they should take. An easy mode raid would work (because it is working in game right now with this instance) and it would be something they could keep active alongside the current raid versions (with the proper resources, of course).

    Now, it could have been an internal test to see how much they could realistically do in this direction with the resources they have - but, again, giving the delays with living stories, I would think they would look at others areas to improve first.

    They now have data on how many people do the raid. They can now decide if it is worth to developer more easy raid content.

    Given that most people I know found it fun, did it 1ince, then never touched it again, I doubt we will see a change in their approach to raid difficulty. The definition of something working is not:"People enjoyed it once and are done with it." At least not for raid content.

  • Grogba.6204Grogba.6204 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 14, 2018
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    Given that most people I know found it fun, did it 1ince, then never touched it again, I doubt we will see a change in their approach to raid difficulty. The definition of something working is not:"People enjoyed it once and are done with it." At least not for raid content.

    Which brings us back to the original problem! (Running in circles for 106 pages, yaaaay!)

    If the rewards are bad people will do the easy mode once, at best. Maybe lure in some veterans when Anet adds achievements to it.
    If the rewards are good/better compared to the regular raids than you end up cannibalizing those which means

    no boss tokens
    no Legendary Insights/Divinations

  • Blaeys.3102Blaeys.3102 Member ✭✭✭
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @Grogba.6204 said:

    Given that most people I know found it fun, did it 1ince, then never touched it again, I doubt we will see a change in their approach to raid difficulty. The definition of something working is not:"People enjoyed it once and are done with it." At least not for raid content.

    Which brings us back to the original problem! (Running in circles for 106 pages, yaaaay!)

    If the rewards are bad people will do the easy mode once, at best. Maybe lure in some veterans when Anet adds achievements to it.
    If the rewards are good/better compared to the regular raids than you end up cannibalizing those which means

    no boss tokens
    no Legendary Insights/Divinations

    Which really serves to only prove that - for a large group - repeatablility (for all parts of the game) are tied to reward rather than content. It stands to reason, then, that we should separate the discussions. If the goal is to have people repeat content, all they need to do is provide desirable rewards (which can still be tiered - as they are across the game now).

    At the same time, we have to gauge the "fun" aspect of content separate from whether or not it is repeated (because, again, for many, that is tied to reward, not the actual content). And, the Wintersday 10 man instance is fun - just as a raid encounter is fun. If you build out either and want repeatability, you simply use rewards (which, again, do not have to mirror one another and can be tiered based on prestige) to accomplish that.

    Once you have that combination of fun+incentive, you have a successful model that makes the game stronger. Adding tiers to the content widens the audience and justifies greater investment/integration with the story/etc - making it a win/win for everyone, including hardcore raiders (it would have justified including a more difficult version of the Wintersday fight, for example).

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 14, 2018
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    And that's the reason why most of the raiders have nothing against an easy mode if the rewards are very well balanced.
    Actually, this was the reasonable opinion of most of the people from the pro-raid fraction during this discussion of 106 pages now. Only a few, which you can't take seriously showed a toxic behaviour and I think we all can agree that there's no need to listen to them.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • MithranArkanere.8957MithranArkanere.8957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 14, 2018
    We need a hard mode, but not an easy mode

    As I see it, the best solution would be the following one, provided they can manage resources to do it:

    • A new Story mode with more lenient enemy damage and no enrage timers, but greatly limited rewards, quite doable with at least 5 players. Like the Lair of the Snowmen.
    • The usual Normal mode that most raids already have.
    • Challenge Mode for every boss encounter, all with repeatable rewards that do not reset weekly, but on a longer cycle, like every 2 or 4 weeks, or when the corresponding wing has the Call of the Mists. This way there's reasons to do the CMS again and give chances to more people to do them with experienced players, but players would not be split between CM and not CM every week.
      Bosses with no CM that may be considered harder because they are completed particularly infrequently would move part of their difficulty to the CM version, but not too much. Only one or two of the bits that metrics indicate lead to wipes more often. Preferably by toning down the numbers on the normal version rather than removing mechanics from the normal version.
  • Grogba.6204Grogba.6204 Member ✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    Outside of resource limitations (Dev time, release schedule, testing, content creation) it would help if we had a balancing baseline...

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    We need an easy mode, but not a hard mode

    @Vinceman.4572 said:
    And that's the reason why most of the raiders have nothing against an easy mode if the rewards are very well balanced.

    Actually, the ones that do speak up about it usually want the rewards to be below the incentive level. The term "few greens at best" has been used more than once. "no rewards" was used even more often. I do not remember even a single raider that actually wanted decent rewards for the mode. I do remember however people saying that easy mode would not deserve such.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Vinceman.4572 said:
    And that's the reason why most of the raiders have nothing against an easy mode if the rewards are very well balanced.

    Actually, the ones that do speak up about it usually want the rewards to be below the incentive level. The term "few greens at best" has been used more than once. "no rewards" was used even more often. I do not remember even a single raider that actually wanted decent rewards for the mode. I do remember however people saying that easy mode would not deserve such.

    What you describe is the disparity between both sides. Since I've read enough raiders here in this thread that are open-minded to liquid gold reward of 50s, rares and exotics and some also mentioned minis + shards in addition it's the anti-raid fraction that feels this is not enough. So, where to draw the line? If you give easy mode people access to legendary armor & ring people wouldn't run normal mode in the slightest. I'm sorry here but that's why a reasonable approach has to deny that.

    Personally I think it's enough if people get champ bags + some shards + a possibility for minis. Just compare it to other "casual" stuff, the rewards aren't better there so no easy mode raider should be entitled to demand something completely out of rationality. The actual example with the Lair of the Snowmen clearly shows it: You have a guarantee for wintersday gifts plus a chance for an exotic weapon but you can also get a rare (2 rares out of 3 daily runs for me).

    So in comparison, my approach is pretty generous but I tell you this won't be enough for the "loot army" which will appear in 3...2...1...

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @Vinceman.4572 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Vinceman.4572 said:
    And that's the reason why most of the raiders have nothing against an easy mode if the rewards are very well balanced.

    Actually, the ones that do speak up about it usually want the rewards to be below the incentive level. The term "few greens at best" has been used more than once. "no rewards" was used even more often. I do not remember even a single raider that actually wanted decent rewards for the mode. I do remember however people saying that easy mode would not deserve such.

    What you describe is the disparity between both sides. Since I've read enough raiders here in this thread that are open-minded to liquid gold reward of 50s, rares and exotics and some also mentioned minis + shards in addition it's the anti-raid fraction that feels this is not enough. So, where to draw the line? If you give easy mode people access to legendary armor & ring people wouldn't run normal mode in the slightest. I'm sorry here but that's why a reasonable approach has to deny that.

    Personally I think it's enough if people get champ bags + some shards + a possibility for minis. Just compare it to other "casual" stuff, the rewards aren't better there so no easy mode raider should be entitled to demand something completely out of rationality. The actual example with the Lair of the Snowmen clearly shows it: You have a guarantee for wintersday gifts plus a chance for an exotic weapon but you can also get a rare (2 rares out of 3 daily runs for me).

    So in comparison, my approach is pretty generous but I tell you this won't be enough for the "loot army" which will appear in 3...2...1...

    You can also get a mini from the Lair.

    I think if the easy mode gave a cap in 75 shards half of what normal mode that in my opinion is good incentive to run the content if you want something like minis or maybe exotics of the current skins. If you want more shards in the week you would have to jump to normal.

    I agree though, keep the Legendary stuff to normal mode.

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Vinceman.4572 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Vinceman.4572 said:
    And that's the reason why most of the raiders have nothing against an easy mode if the rewards are very well balanced.

    Actually, the ones that do speak up about it usually want the rewards to be below the incentive level. The term "few greens at best" has been used more than once. "no rewards" was used even more often. I do not remember even a single raider that actually wanted decent rewards for the mode. I do remember however people saying that easy mode would not deserve such.

    What you describe is the disparity between both sides. Since I've read enough raiders here in this thread that are open-minded to liquid gold reward of 50s, rares and exotics and some also mentioned minis + shards in addition it's the anti-raid fraction that feels this is not enough. So, where to draw the line? If you give easy mode people access to legendary armor & ring people wouldn't run normal mode in the slightest. I'm sorry here but that's why a reasonable approach has to deny that.

    Personally I think it's enough if people get champ bags + some shards + a possibility for minis. Just compare it to other "casual" stuff, the rewards aren't better there so no easy mode raider should be entitled to demand something completely out of rationality. The actual example with the Lair of the Snowmen clearly shows it: You have a guarantee for wintersday gifts plus a chance for an exotic weapon but you can also get a rare (2 rares out of 3 daily runs for me).

    So in comparison, my approach is pretty generous but I tell you this won't be enough for the "loot army" which will appear in 3...2...1...

    You can also get a mini from the Lair.

    I think if the easy mode gave a cap in 75 shards half of what normal mode that in my opinion is good incentive to run the content if you want something like minis or maybe exotics of the current skins. If you want more shards in the week you would have to jump to normal.

    I agree though, keep the Legendary stuff to normal mode.

    That's why I included minis in my post. (And it's just reasonable since minis are also thrown out like crazy/easy to get in normal mode).
    And no, 75 shards per week is too much. 15-25 would be fine and just fair.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • Grogba.6204Grogba.6204 Member ✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    the magnetite/geating cap might just use the regular cap imo. Skins are pretty expensive and I guess most people use them to easily gear characters nowadays. But as Vinceman said no Insights/Divinations and I want to add no boss tokens because that opens another box better left unopened. I do not want to imagine what arbitrary item the playerbase will ask to ping next if the tokens were to drop from an easy mode.

  • mindcircus.1506mindcircus.1506 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 14, 2018
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Vinceman.4572 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Vinceman.4572 said:
    And that's the reason why most of the raiders have nothing against an easy mode if the rewards are very well balanced.

    Actually, the ones that do speak up about it usually want the rewards to be below the incentive level. The term "few greens at best" has been used more than once. "no rewards" was used even more often. I do not remember even a single raider that actually wanted decent rewards for the mode. I do remember however people saying that easy mode would not deserve such.

    What you describe is the disparity between both sides. Since I've read enough raiders here in this thread that are open-minded to liquid gold reward of 50s, rares and exotics and some also mentioned minis + shards in addition it's the anti-raid fraction that feels this is not enough. So, where to draw the line? If you give easy mode people access to legendary armor & ring people wouldn't run normal mode in the slightest. I'm sorry here but that's why a reasonable approach has to deny that.

    Personally I think it's enough if people get champ bags + some shards + a possibility for minis. Just compare it to other "casual" stuff, the rewards aren't better there so no easy mode raider should be entitled to demand something completely out of rationality. The actual example with the Lair of the Snowmen clearly shows it: You have a guarantee for wintersday gifts plus a chance for an exotic weapon but you can also get a rare (2 rares out of 3 daily runs for me).

    So in comparison, my approach is pretty generous but I tell you this won't be enough for the "loot army" which will appear in 3...2...1...

    And you are absolutely right.

    Let's say Anet listens to the small handful of people who say "Hey we would be happy with two blues and a green for our easy mode raid kills". The vast majority of people this content would be targeted for would abandon it for lack of reward...rendering all that development time wasted.
    Then there would be the dozens of threads here and on reddit "Not worth doing!!" or probably "Anet hates casuals".
    And of course the supporters of Easy Mode raids would then start to argue that the disparity of rewards exacerbates the the division in the player base and loudly proclaim "this isn't what Guild Wars 2 is supposed to be!" "Anti grind philosophy!"..."Play how I want!".... or whatever gatekeeping meme is quotable that week.

    The reality is while the core supporters of Easy Mode raids may even be honest about their loot expectations, the main target audience wouldn't be happy with anything but Tarir level rewards from Lair of the Snowmen level challenge.
    And what's worse?
    You could present a Snowmen level version of all the existing raids and you would still see significant complaints that it wasn't soloable... or that there should be a 5 man version.

    I created a squad the moment I saw Snowmen was live, capped it at the first ten randoms who joined, jumped into that encounter and had one of the best times I have had with this game in months. It was effortless. There was no wipe, no stress.
    I still read anecdotes and sock puppet speeches about "guildies who found it too hard to finish" and multiple wipes.

    Arenanet can't win here, and I doubt the target audience of this content would be happy with any solution.
    It's better to not spend the resources and be abandoned for lack of reward or lack of solability and just spend the time and money on other content.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @Vinceman.4572 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Vinceman.4572 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Vinceman.4572 said:
    And that's the reason why most of the raiders have nothing against an easy mode if the rewards are very well balanced.

    Actually, the ones that do speak up about it usually want the rewards to be below the incentive level. The term "few greens at best" has been used more than once. "no rewards" was used even more often. I do not remember even a single raider that actually wanted decent rewards for the mode. I do remember however people saying that easy mode would not deserve such.

    What you describe is the disparity between both sides. Since I've read enough raiders here in this thread that are open-minded to liquid gold reward of 50s, rares and exotics and some also mentioned minis + shards in addition it's the anti-raid fraction that feels this is not enough. So, where to draw the line? If you give easy mode people access to legendary armor & ring people wouldn't run normal mode in the slightest. I'm sorry here but that's why a reasonable approach has to deny that.

    Personally I think it's enough if people get champ bags + some shards + a possibility for minis. Just compare it to other "casual" stuff, the rewards aren't better there so no easy mode raider should be entitled to demand something completely out of rationality. The actual example with the Lair of the Snowmen clearly shows it: You have a guarantee for wintersday gifts plus a chance for an exotic weapon but you can also get a rare (2 rares out of 3 daily runs for me).

    So in comparison, my approach is pretty generous but I tell you this won't be enough for the "loot army" which will appear in 3...2...1...

    You can also get a mini from the Lair.

    I think if the easy mode gave a cap in 75 shards half of what normal mode that in my opinion is good incentive to run the content if you want something like minis or maybe exotics of the current skins. If you want more shards in the week you would have to jump to normal.

    I agree though, keep the Legendary stuff to normal mode.

    That's why I included minis in my post. (And it's just reasonable since minis are also thrown out like crazy/easy to get in normal mode).
    And no, 75 shards per week is too much. 15-25 would be fine and just fair.

    15 to 25 shards would mean you could buy something like an ascended Armor chest in like 4 months. That carrot would be too far and no one would do it.

  • sigur.9453sigur.9453 Member ✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Vinceman.4572 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Vinceman.4572 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Vinceman.4572 said:
    And that's the reason why most of the raiders have nothing against an easy mode if the rewards are very well balanced.

    Actually, the ones that do speak up about it usually want the rewards to be below the incentive level. The term "few greens at best" has been used more than once. "no rewards" was used even more often. I do not remember even a single raider that actually wanted decent rewards for the mode. I do remember however people saying that easy mode would not deserve such.

    What you describe is the disparity between both sides. Since I've read enough raiders here in this thread that are open-minded to liquid gold reward of 50s, rares and exotics and some also mentioned minis + shards in addition it's the anti-raid fraction that feels this is not enough. So, where to draw the line? If you give easy mode people access to legendary armor & ring people wouldn't run normal mode in the slightest. I'm sorry here but that's why a reasonable approach has to deny that.

    Personally I think it's enough if people get champ bags + some shards + a possibility for minis. Just compare it to other "casual" stuff, the rewards aren't better there so no easy mode raider should be entitled to demand something completely out of rationality. The actual example with the Lair of the Snowmen clearly shows it: You have a guarantee for wintersday gifts plus a chance for an exotic weapon but you can also get a rare (2 rares out of 3 daily runs for me).

    So in comparison, my approach is pretty generous but I tell you this won't be enough for the "loot army" which will appear in 3...2...1...

    You can also get a mini from the Lair.

    I think if the easy mode gave a cap in 75 shards half of what normal mode that in my opinion is good incentive to run the content if you want something like minis or maybe exotics of the current skins. If you want more shards in the week you would have to jump to normal.

    I agree though, keep the Legendary stuff to normal mode.

    That's why I included minis in my post. (And it's just reasonable since minis are also thrown out like crazy/easy to get in normal mode).
    And no, 75 shards per week is too much. 15-25 would be fine and just fair.

    15 to 25 shards would mean you could buy something like an ascended Armor chest in like 4 months. That carrot would be too far and no one would do it.

    Don't forget you can trade in you minis for more shards.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @sigur.9453 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Vinceman.4572 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Vinceman.4572 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Vinceman.4572 said:
    And that's the reason why most of the raiders have nothing against an easy mode if the rewards are very well balanced.

    Actually, the ones that do speak up about it usually want the rewards to be below the incentive level. The term "few greens at best" has been used more than once. "no rewards" was used even more often. I do not remember even a single raider that actually wanted decent rewards for the mode. I do remember however people saying that easy mode would not deserve such.

    What you describe is the disparity between both sides. Since I've read enough raiders here in this thread that are open-minded to liquid gold reward of 50s, rares and exotics and some also mentioned minis + shards in addition it's the anti-raid fraction that feels this is not enough. So, where to draw the line? If you give easy mode people access to legendary armor & ring people wouldn't run normal mode in the slightest. I'm sorry here but that's why a reasonable approach has to deny that.

    Personally I think it's enough if people get champ bags + some shards + a possibility for minis. Just compare it to other "casual" stuff, the rewards aren't better there so no easy mode raider should be entitled to demand something completely out of rationality. The actual example with the Lair of the Snowmen clearly shows it: You have a guarantee for wintersday gifts plus a chance for an exotic weapon but you can also get a rare (2 rares out of 3 daily runs for me).

    So in comparison, my approach is pretty generous but I tell you this won't be enough for the "loot army" which will appear in 3...2...1...

    You can also get a mini from the Lair.

    I think if the easy mode gave a cap in 75 shards half of what normal mode that in my opinion is good incentive to run the content if you want something like minis or maybe exotics of the current skins. If you want more shards in the week you would have to jump to normal.

    I agree though, keep the Legendary stuff to normal mode.

    That's why I included minis in my post. (And it's just reasonable since minis are also thrown out like crazy/easy to get in normal mode).
    And no, 75 shards per week is too much. 15-25 would be fine and just fair.

    15 to 25 shards would mean you could buy something like an ascended Armor chest in like 4 months. That carrot would be too far and no one would do it.

    Don't forget you can trade in you minis for more shards.

    True, I forgot about that actually.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 14, 2018
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Vinceman.4572 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Vinceman.4572 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Vinceman.4572 said:
    And that's the reason why most of the raiders have nothing against an easy mode if the rewards are very well balanced.

    Actually, the ones that do speak up about it usually want the rewards to be below the incentive level. The term "few greens at best" has been used more than once. "no rewards" was used even more often. I do not remember even a single raider that actually wanted decent rewards for the mode. I do remember however people saying that easy mode would not deserve such.

    What you describe is the disparity between both sides. Since I've read enough raiders here in this thread that are open-minded to liquid gold reward of 50s, rares and exotics and some also mentioned minis + shards in addition it's the anti-raid fraction that feels this is not enough. So, where to draw the line? If you give easy mode people access to legendary armor & ring people wouldn't run normal mode in the slightest. I'm sorry here but that's why a reasonable approach has to deny that.

    Personally I think it's enough if people get champ bags + some shards + a possibility for minis. Just compare it to other "casual" stuff, the rewards aren't better there so no easy mode raider should be entitled to demand something completely out of rationality. The actual example with the Lair of the Snowmen clearly shows it: You have a guarantee for wintersday gifts plus a chance for an exotic weapon but you can also get a rare (2 rares out of 3 daily runs for me).

    So in comparison, my approach is pretty generous but I tell you this won't be enough for the "loot army" which will appear in 3...2...1...

    You can also get a mini from the Lair.

    I think if the easy mode gave a cap in 75 shards half of what normal mode that in my opinion is good incentive to run the content if you want something like minis or maybe exotics of the current skins. If you want more shards in the week you would have to jump to normal.

    I agree though, keep the Legendary stuff to normal mode.

    That's why I included minis in my post. (And it's just reasonable since minis are also thrown out like crazy/easy to get in normal mode).
    And no, 75 shards per week is too much. 15-25 would be fine and just fair.

    15 to 25 shards would mean you could buy something like an ascended Armor chest in like 4 months. That carrot would be too far and no one would do it.

    Easy mode raids are meant for practice last time I checked, at least that's what people here are officially putting up as argument. There is no point in offering raid rewards (even skins) via easy mode raids AND regular raids.

    I'm not opposed to having easy mode raids give some reward like gold, rares or exotics. But if people honestly believe that regular raid rewards are the way to go for easy mode raids, sorry but then we can scrap raids all together. There is a significant amount of easy normal raid bosses which allow for magnetite shards to be gained, there is no reason to offer those in an easy mode raid (which I still think is absolutely unnecessary for practice purposes).

    But that's how we move isn't it? First we start with arguing that easy mode raids are needed for practice and need no rewards since eventually people will start raiding.

    Then suddenly easy mode raids need reward incentives so people actually play them.

    Then we put in raid rewards into easy mode raids, but at a fraction and reduced amount.

    Finally we increase the easy mode raid rewards since the fraction of raid rewards was to low.

    This entire line of argument is just off and I will not support such nonsense.

  • Blaeys.3102Blaeys.3102 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 15, 2018
    We need both easy and hard modes

    The reward structure is fairly obvious. First, yes (1000X yes), they should be significantly lower than regular raid rewards.

    The reward should be similar to a world boss in terms of possible gear drops (so blues and greens, with a small chance at an exotic and an extremely miniscule chance at a vanilla ascended). Additionally, there should be a minimum number of magnetite shards rewarded - probably about 1/4 what a raid encounter drops now. The caveat is - no unique raid skins (including weapons, minis, the portal device, even titles) should drop at easier modes and they should remain locked on the vendor until the associative encounter is beaten in regular mode (so no way whatsoever to get the Gorseval staff without beating the current iteration of Gorseval).

    What this does is offer a minimal reward - and give people looking to get into raids a secondary guaranteed (albeit glacially slow) path to earning vanilla ascended gear (again, no unique skins). This would serve to offer both a lower difficulty level and support higher levels of raiding by letting players who absolutely hate crafting gradually (crazy slow) build an ascended raiding set. Finally, it would retain the integrity and prestige of higher tier raiding by ensuring the skins/titles/minis (yes, even minis) are only earnable through the hard mode.

  • mindcircus.1506mindcircus.1506 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Blaeys.3102 said:
    The reward structure is fairly obvious. First, yes (1000X yes), they should be significantly lower than regular raid rewards.

    The reward should be similar to a world boss in terms of possible gear drops (so blues and greens, with a small chance at an exotic and an extremely miniscule chance at a vanilla ascended).

    World bosses are gated by timers. This caps their rewards as repeatable content.
    World bosses also tend to award at least a cheap rare. Even Fire Elemental gives at least a rare.
    If I am not mistaken the only world bosses with Ascended weapons in the drop table are Tequatl and Triple Trouble, both of which take a considerably bigger investment of time and energy than Lair of the Snowmen.

    Lair of the Snowmen is completed in around ten mins.
    If all Raids offered the level of reward you are proposing and could be done one after another (5 in an hour) and add raid currency to that you're looking at a purposefully easy content that is far too rewarding.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @Blaeys.3102 said:
    The reward structure is fairly obvious. First, yes (1000X yes), they should be significantly lower than regular raid rewards.

    The reward should be similar to a world boss in terms of possible gear drops (so blues and greens, with a small chance at an exotic and an extremely miniscule chance at a vanilla ascended). Additionally, there should be a minimum number of magnetite shards rewarded - probably about 1/4 what a raid encounter drops now. The caveat is - no unique raid skins (including weapons, minis, the portal device, even titles) should drop at easier modes and they should remain locked on the vendor until the associative encounter is beaten in regular mode (so no way whatsoever to get the Gorseval staff without beating the current iteration of Gorseval).

    What this does is offer a minimal reward - and give people looking to get into raids a secondary guaranteed (albeit glacially slow) path to earning vanilla ascended gear (again, no unique skins). This would serve to offer both a lower difficulty level and support higher levels of raiding by letting players who absolutely hate crafting gradually (crazy slow) build an ascended raiding set. Finally, it would retain the integrity and prestige of higher tier raiding by ensuring the skins/titles/minis (yes, even minis) are only earnable through the hard mode.

    I agree most of this except the minis part, the problem with crazy low shards for ascended equipment is your better off crafting or doing something else. Unfortunately to make easy mode worth the development time you need rewards that will bring people into the mode and repeat the mode. Something I’m finding with the Lair is I find the encounter fun, but eventually it will lose the fun factor and I’m now looking at the drops.

    Now the big carrot, Legendary Armor should always be locked behind normal, but some of this stuff like ascended chests and minis should be allowed for an easy mode. Sure keep the unique skins to normal too why not.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Vinceman.4572 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Vinceman.4572 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Vinceman.4572 said:
    And that's the reason why most of the raiders have nothing against an easy mode if the rewards are very well balanced.

    Actually, the ones that do speak up about it usually want the rewards to be below the incentive level. The term "few greens at best" has been used more than once. "no rewards" was used even more often. I do not remember even a single raider that actually wanted decent rewards for the mode. I do remember however people saying that easy mode would not deserve such.

    What you describe is the disparity between both sides. Since I've read enough raiders here in this thread that are open-minded to liquid gold reward of 50s, rares and exotics and some also mentioned minis + shards in addition it's the anti-raid fraction that feels this is not enough. So, where to draw the line? If you give easy mode people access to legendary armor & ring people wouldn't run normal mode in the slightest. I'm sorry here but that's why a reasonable approach has to deny that.

    Personally I think it's enough if people get champ bags + some shards + a possibility for minis. Just compare it to other "casual" stuff, the rewards aren't better there so no easy mode raider should be entitled to demand something completely out of rationality. The actual example with the Lair of the Snowmen clearly shows it: You have a guarantee for wintersday gifts plus a chance for an exotic weapon but you can also get a rare (2 rares out of 3 daily runs for me).

    So in comparison, my approach is pretty generous but I tell you this won't be enough for the "loot army" which will appear in 3...2...1...

    You can also get a mini from the Lair.

    I think if the easy mode gave a cap in 75 shards half of what normal mode that in my opinion is good incentive to run the content if you want something like minis or maybe exotics of the current skins. If you want more shards in the week you would have to jump to normal.

    I agree though, keep the Legendary stuff to normal mode.

    That's why I included minis in my post. (And it's just reasonable since minis are also thrown out like crazy/easy to get in normal mode).
    And no, 75 shards per week is too much. 15-25 would be fine and just fair.

    15 to 25 shards would mean you could buy something like an ascended Armor chest in like 4 months. That carrot would be too far and no one would do it.

    Easy mode raids are meant for practice last time I checked, at least that's what people here are officially putting up as argument. There is no point in offering raid rewards (even skins) via easy mode raids AND regular raids.

    I'm not opposed to having easy mode raids give some reward like gold, rares or exotics. But if people honestly believe that regular raid rewards are the way to go for easy mode raids, sorry but then we can scrap raids all together. There is a significant amount of easy normal raid bosses which allow for magnetite shards to be gained, there is no reason to offer those in an easy mode raid (which I still think is absolutely unnecessary for practice purposes).

    But that's how we move isn't it? First we start with arguing that easy mode raids are needed for practice and need no rewards since eventually people will start raiding.

    Then suddenly easy mode raids need reward incentives so people actually play them.

    Then we put in raid rewards into easy mode raids, but at a fraction and reduced amount.

    Finally we increase the easy mode raid rewards since the fraction of raid rewards was to low.

    This entire line of argument is just off and I will not support such nonsense.

    Here is the thing. An easy mode with no rewards will not get played, not on a repeat fashion anyways. Unfortunately if Anet ever developed this they would need something that would require people to come back into the raid each week on easy mode. Normal Mode already has this with the Armor and unique drops.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Vinceman.4572 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Vinceman.4572 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Vinceman.4572 said:
    And that's the reason why most of the raiders have nothing against an easy mode if the rewards are very well balanced.

    Actually, the ones that do speak up about it usually want the rewards to be below the incentive level. The term "few greens at best" has been used more than once. "no rewards" was used even more often. I do not remember even a single raider that actually wanted decent rewards for the mode. I do remember however people saying that easy mode would not deserve such.

    What you describe is the disparity between both sides. Since I've read enough raiders here in this thread that are open-minded to liquid gold reward of 50s, rares and exotics and some also mentioned minis + shards in addition it's the anti-raid fraction that feels this is not enough. So, where to draw the line? If you give easy mode people access to legendary armor & ring people wouldn't run normal mode in the slightest. I'm sorry here but that's why a reasonable approach has to deny that.

    Personally I think it's enough if people get champ bags + some shards + a possibility for minis. Just compare it to other "casual" stuff, the rewards aren't better there so no easy mode raider should be entitled to demand something completely out of rationality. The actual example with the Lair of the Snowmen clearly shows it: You have a guarantee for wintersday gifts plus a chance for an exotic weapon but you can also get a rare (2 rares out of 3 daily runs for me).

    So in comparison, my approach is pretty generous but I tell you this won't be enough for the "loot army" which will appear in 3...2...1...

    You can also get a mini from the Lair.

    I think if the easy mode gave a cap in 75 shards half of what normal mode that in my opinion is good incentive to run the content if you want something like minis or maybe exotics of the current skins. If you want more shards in the week you would have to jump to normal.

    I agree though, keep the Legendary stuff to normal mode.

    That's why I included minis in my post. (And it's just reasonable since minis are also thrown out like crazy/easy to get in normal mode).
    And no, 75 shards per week is too much. 15-25 would be fine and just fair.

    15 to 25 shards would mean you could buy something like an ascended Armor chest in like 4 months. That carrot would be too far and no one would do it.

    Easy mode raids are meant for practice last time I checked, at least that's what people here are officially putting up as argument. There is no point in offering raid rewards (even skins) via easy mode raids AND regular raids.

    I'm not opposed to having easy mode raids give some reward like gold, rares or exotics. But if people honestly believe that regular raid rewards are the way to go for easy mode raids, sorry but then we can scrap raids all together. There is a significant amount of easy normal raid bosses which allow for magnetite shards to be gained, there is no reason to offer those in an easy mode raid (which I still think is absolutely unnecessary for practice purposes).

    But that's how we move isn't it? First we start with arguing that easy mode raids are needed for practice and need no rewards since eventually people will start raiding.

    Then suddenly easy mode raids need reward incentives so people actually play them.

    Then we put in raid rewards into easy mode raids, but at a fraction and reduced amount.

    Finally we increase the easy mode raid rewards since the fraction of raid rewards was to low.

    This entire line of argument is just off and I will not support such nonsense.

    Here is the thing. An easy mode with no rewards will not get played, not on a repeat fashion anyways. Unfortunately if Anet ever developed this they would need something that would require people to come back into the raid each week on easy mode. Normal Mode already has this with the Armor and unique drops.

    Oh I agree, I doubt any content will be of longevity without rewards in most any MMO.

    I simply portrayed how the discussion developed and how the bar keeps getting moved. I also believe the bar will keep moving even if easy mode raids get added, but that's a different issue. Again, I personally do not believe easy mode raids to be required neither for the story, nor for practice.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Vinceman.4572 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Vinceman.4572 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Vinceman.4572 said:
    And that's the reason why most of the raiders have nothing against an easy mode if the rewards are very well balanced.

    Actually, the ones that do speak up about it usually want the rewards to be below the incentive level. The term "few greens at best" has been used more than once. "no rewards" was used even more often. I do not remember even a single raider that actually wanted decent rewards for the mode. I do remember however people saying that easy mode would not deserve such.

    What you describe is the disparity between both sides. Since I've read enough raiders here in this thread that are open-minded to liquid gold reward of 50s, rares and exotics and some also mentioned minis + shards in addition it's the anti-raid fraction that feels this is not enough. So, where to draw the line? If you give easy mode people access to legendary armor & ring people wouldn't run normal mode in the slightest. I'm sorry here but that's why a reasonable approach has to deny that.

    Personally I think it's enough if people get champ bags + some shards + a possibility for minis. Just compare it to other "casual" stuff, the rewards aren't better there so no easy mode raider should be entitled to demand something completely out of rationality. The actual example with the Lair of the Snowmen clearly shows it: You have a guarantee for wintersday gifts plus a chance for an exotic weapon but you can also get a rare (2 rares out of 3 daily runs for me).

    So in comparison, my approach is pretty generous but I tell you this won't be enough for the "loot army" which will appear in 3...2...1...

    You can also get a mini from the Lair.

    I think if the easy mode gave a cap in 75 shards half of what normal mode that in my opinion is good incentive to run the content if you want something like minis or maybe exotics of the current skins. If you want more shards in the week you would have to jump to normal.

    I agree though, keep the Legendary stuff to normal mode.

    That's why I included minis in my post. (And it's just reasonable since minis are also thrown out like crazy/easy to get in normal mode).
    And no, 75 shards per week is too much. 15-25 would be fine and just fair.

    15 to 25 shards would mean you could buy something like an ascended Armor chest in like 4 months. That carrot would be too far and no one would do it.

    Easy mode raids are meant for practice last time I checked, at least that's what people here are officially putting up as argument. There is no point in offering raid rewards (even skins) via easy mode raids AND regular raids.

    I'm not opposed to having easy mode raids give some reward like gold, rares or exotics. But if people honestly believe that regular raid rewards are the way to go for easy mode raids, sorry but then we can scrap raids all together. There is a significant amount of easy normal raid bosses which allow for magnetite shards to be gained, there is no reason to offer those in an easy mode raid (which I still think is absolutely unnecessary for practice purposes).

    But that's how we move isn't it? First we start with arguing that easy mode raids are needed for practice and need no rewards since eventually people will start raiding.

    Then suddenly easy mode raids need reward incentives so people actually play them.

    Then we put in raid rewards into easy mode raids, but at a fraction and reduced amount.

    Finally we increase the easy mode raid rewards since the fraction of raid rewards was to low.

    This entire line of argument is just off and I will not support such nonsense.

    Here is the thing. An easy mode with no rewards will not get played, not on a repeat fashion anyways. Unfortunately if Anet ever developed this they would need something that would require people to come back into the raid each week on easy mode. Normal Mode already has this with the Armor and unique drops.

    Oh I agree, I doubt any content will be of longevity without rewards in most any MMO.

    I simply portrayed how the discussion developed and how the bar keeps getting moved. I also believe the bar will keep moving even if easy mode raids get added, but that's a different issue. Again, I personally do not believe easy mode raids to be required neither for the story, nor for practice.

    Legendary Armor and unique raid skins is where I would personally draw the line. Minis and Armor chests that you can get in easier ways is where I would be ok with in terms of rewards.

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @sigur.9453 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Vinceman.4572 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Vinceman.4572 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Vinceman.4572 said:
    And that's the reason why most of the raiders have nothing against an easy mode if the rewards are very well balanced.

    Actually, the ones that do speak up about it usually want the rewards to be below the incentive level. The term "few greens at best" has been used more than once. "no rewards" was used even more often. I do not remember even a single raider that actually wanted decent rewards for the mode. I do remember however people saying that easy mode would not deserve such.

    What you describe is the disparity between both sides. Since I've read enough raiders here in this thread that are open-minded to liquid gold reward of 50s, rares and exotics and some also mentioned minis + shards in addition it's the anti-raid fraction that feels this is not enough. So, where to draw the line? If you give easy mode people access to legendary armor & ring people wouldn't run normal mode in the slightest. I'm sorry here but that's why a reasonable approach has to deny that.

    Personally I think it's enough if people get champ bags + some shards + a possibility for minis. Just compare it to other "casual" stuff, the rewards aren't better there so no easy mode raider should be entitled to demand something completely out of rationality. The actual example with the Lair of the Snowmen clearly shows it: You have a guarantee for wintersday gifts plus a chance for an exotic weapon but you can also get a rare (2 rares out of 3 daily runs for me).

    So in comparison, my approach is pretty generous but I tell you this won't be enough for the "loot army" which will appear in 3...2...1...

    You can also get a mini from the Lair.

    I think if the easy mode gave a cap in 75 shards half of what normal mode that in my opinion is good incentive to run the content if you want something like minis or maybe exotics of the current skins. If you want more shards in the week you would have to jump to normal.

    I agree though, keep the Legendary stuff to normal mode.

    That's why I included minis in my post. (And it's just reasonable since minis are also thrown out like crazy/easy to get in normal mode).
    And no, 75 shards per week is too much. 15-25 would be fine and just fair.

    15 to 25 shards would mean you could buy something like an ascended Armor chest in like 4 months. That carrot would be too far and no one would do it.

    Don't forget you can trade in you minis for more shards.

    True, I forgot about that actually.

    You can also salvage raid weapon and armor drops if you don't want that particular item for even more shards.

    Best Dressed Memser NA.

  • Miellyn.6847Miellyn.6847 Member ✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Blaeys.3102 said:
    The reward structure is fairly obvious. First, yes (1000X yes), they should be significantly lower than regular raid rewards.

    The reward should be similar to a world boss in terms of possible gear drops (so blues and greens, with a small chance at an exotic and an extremely miniscule chance at a vanilla ascended). Additionally, there should be a minimum number of magnetite shards rewarded - probably about 1/4 what a raid encounter drops now. The caveat is - no unique raid skins (including weapons, minis, the portal device, even titles) should drop at easier modes and they should remain locked on the vendor until the associative encounter is beaten in regular mode (so no way whatsoever to get the Gorseval staff without beating the current iteration of Gorseval).

    What this does is offer a minimal reward - and give people looking to get into raids a secondary guaranteed (albeit glacially slow) path to earning vanilla ascended gear (again, no unique skins). This would serve to offer both a lower difficulty level and support higher levels of raiding by letting players who absolutely hate crafting gradually (crazy slow) build an ascended raiding set. Finally, it would retain the integrity and prestige of higher tier raiding by ensuring the skins/titles/minis (yes, even minis) are only earnable through the hard mode.

    As maddoctor posted in another thread:
    The winterday raid has a whooping 10.8% completion rate right now while Desmina in Hall of Chains got killed by 9.5% of the accounts there.

    Easy modes won't be played unless you also add an matchmaking to it. The vast majority will not play any group content where they have to find a group by themselves.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    We need an easy mode, but not a hard mode

    @Miellyn.6847 said:

    @Blaeys.3102 said:
    The reward structure is fairly obvious. First, yes (1000X yes), they should be significantly lower than regular raid rewards.

    The reward should be similar to a world boss in terms of possible gear drops (so blues and greens, with a small chance at an exotic and an extremely miniscule chance at a vanilla ascended). Additionally, there should be a minimum number of magnetite shards rewarded - probably about 1/4 what a raid encounter drops now. The caveat is - no unique raid skins (including weapons, minis, the portal device, even titles) should drop at easier modes and they should remain locked on the vendor until the associative encounter is beaten in regular mode (so no way whatsoever to get the Gorseval staff without beating the current iteration of Gorseval).

    What this does is offer a minimal reward - and give people looking to get into raids a secondary guaranteed (albeit glacially slow) path to earning vanilla ascended gear (again, no unique skins). This would serve to offer both a lower difficulty level and support higher levels of raiding by letting players who absolutely hate crafting gradually (crazy slow) build an ascended raiding set. Finally, it would retain the integrity and prestige of higher tier raiding by ensuring the skins/titles/minis (yes, even minis) are only earnable through the hard mode.

    As maddoctor posted in another thread:
    The winterday raid has a whooping 10.8% completion rate right now while Desmina in Hall of Chains got killed by 9.5% of the accounts there.

    Exactly. Wintersday raid has a higher completion time shortly after it was released, than Desmina in over a year. If it remained a permanent content, it would reach much higher completion rates.

    Although probably there wouldn't be all that many players repeating it, because in the end rewards are just too low for it.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids have problems, but we need a better solution

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Miellyn.6847 said:

    @Blaeys.3102 said:
    The reward structure is fairly obvious. First, yes (1000X yes), they should be significantly lower than regular raid rewards.

    The reward should be similar to a world boss in terms of possible gear drops (so blues and greens, with a small chance at an exotic and an extremely miniscule chance at a vanilla ascended). Additionally, there should be a minimum number of magnetite shards rewarded - probably about 1/4 what a raid encounter drops now. The caveat is - no unique raid skins (including weapons, minis, the portal device, even titles) should drop at easier modes and they should remain locked on the vendor until the associative encounter is beaten in regular mode (so no way whatsoever to get the Gorseval staff without beating the current iteration of Gorseval).

    What this does is offer a minimal reward - and give people looking to get into raids a secondary guaranteed (albeit glacially slow) path to earning vanilla ascended gear (again, no unique skins). This would serve to offer both a lower difficulty level and support higher levels of raiding by letting players who absolutely hate crafting gradually (crazy slow) build an ascended raiding set. Finally, it would retain the integrity and prestige of higher tier raiding by ensuring the skins/titles/minis (yes, even minis) are only earnable through the hard mode.

    As maddoctor posted in another thread:
    The winterday raid has a whooping 10.8% completion rate right now while Desmina in Hall of Chains got killed by 9.5% of the accounts there.

    Exactly. Wintersday raid has a higher completion time shortly after it was released, than Desmina in over a year. If it remained a permanent content, it would reach much higher completion rates.

    Although probably there wouldn't be all that many players repeating it, because in the end rewards are just too low for it.

    Desmina has been available for over a year but we still don't know what the end reward looks like. Personally I haven't done W5/W6 runs yet because there is no rush. Meanwhile, Freezie is all about rushing because it's temporary content. If they made it permanent it wouldn't reach much higher completion rates, in fact it reached the current rates BECAUSE it is temporary. Now the question is if 1% is worth developing a new game mode for.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 20, 2018
    We need an easy mode, but not a hard mode

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    Desmina has been available for over a year but we still don't know what the end reward looks like. Personally I haven't done W5/W6 runs yet because there is no rush. Meanwhile, Freezie is all about rushing because it's temporary content. If they made it permanent it wouldn't reach much higher completion rates, in fact it reached the current rates BECAUSE it is temporary.

    Yeah, suuure.

    Now the question is if 1% is worth developing a new game mode for.

    If that 10% for Freezie includes all the players that have done Desmina earlier, then probably not. Haven't seen all that many veteran raiders running it so far, though, so probably the overlap is much smaller.

    On the other hand... was Dhuum CM worth developing? Especially since those 1.8% definitely were the same players that've done dhuum normal mode earlier, and considering it was planned as one time achi, not a repeatable activity.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids have problems, but we need a better solution

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Haven't seen all that many veteran raiders running it so far, though, so probably the overlap is much smaller.

    I don't know about everyone but in my raid groups everyone run it.

    On the other hand... was Dhuum CM worth developing? Especially since those 1.8% definitely were the same players that've done dhuum normal mode earlier, and considering it was planned as one time achi, not a repeatable activity.

    I agree, as long as it is one-time only CMs aren't really worth developing, which is probably why they are looking for ways to make them repeatable. Maybe in 2019

  • Primal Duolog.9863Primal Duolog.9863 Member ✭✭
    edited December 20, 2018
    We need both easy and hard modes

    As far as tangible loot rewards go, I would say that before legendary insights were as common as they are now (15 spread out over 4 wings), the main reason keeping players coming back was trying to get enough to form a set of legendary armor. I have personally witnessed lots of players who stopped raiding once they got envoy's herald title or one weight class of legendary armor. The legendary insight time-gate was the only thing that kept them raiding. Only the ones who were truly into raiding and self-improvement continue to do it every week after that.

    Why not use this to incentivise easy mode raids? Give them a 'Legendary Insight fragment' per boss clear per week, that merges 5 fragments to give an actual Legendary insight(3 LI if they full clear easy mode wing 1 to 4). The resources required to make the armor would then take a legendary amount of time to get just like the WvW version at the very least.

    They will then either:
    repeat easy mode raids for 50 weeks at the least to get the required resources
    or
    get bored of the harsh time-gate and start doing normal mode raids
    or
    quit the game mode on their own terms

    I am on the fence on whether they should be able to get parts of the envoy collection done from easy mode raids though; I don't really place too much prestige on owning the armor itself and many (not all) of the collection items are one-off stuff that they can get just from buying raids but I understand some people are pretty adamant about locking the armor behind 'competency'.

  • Clyan.1593Clyan.1593 Member ✭✭✭
    We need both easy and hard modes

    In general I think there should be a super easy mode, meaning you take very little dmg, but everything else is the same. You get NO reward for it, except, you can learn the mechanics.

  • Digit.1823Digit.1823 Member ✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Clyan.1593 said:
    In general I think there should be a super easy mode, meaning you take very little dmg, but everything else is the same. You get NO reward for it, except, you can learn the mechanics.

    While your suggestion is appreciated, and please don't get me wrong, this suggestion has been made before and has been shot down before.

    There are a lot of insta kill mechanics in raids as it is, you cannot balance around those simply by "reducing damage". I mean how does one reduce something that kills you instantly regardless?

    Also, if the damage thresh hold is too low then why bother avoiding mechanics anyway? I mean if the green on VG only does 10% health damage instead of the current 70% (or somewhere around that number) then why ever bother going for the green circle? Might not be the best example since even with 70% damage it gets out healed anyway, but i hope you get the point i'm trying to make.

    See simply reducing damage in order to force people to learn mechanics is a bad suggestion in and of itself since it promotes nothing but lazy game play. Imagine someone coming from super easy mode to normal mode and then suddenly finding out he actually has to run around Sabatha's flame wall since he can no longer face tank it? Or finding out that the green @ vg actually does quite a bit of hefty damage?

    Or what about Slothasor's poison? I mean if you get super low damage anyway then you might just as well drop it on top of the group if it doesn't really matter, right? Oh how i imagine people would react if someone from super easy mode comes into normal mode slothasor and just drops the poison smack dab on the group because hey: "uuh, that's what we always do in super easy mode". Sounds a bit silly, but guaranteed that this is going to happen.

    And as a final small example, how does one reduce damage on Dhuum's soul split when you need to do a green circle? If you don't grab enough orbs that's game over, at least that's how it currently works. How would one go about fixing that kind of mechanic for an easier setting? You either can't, or you need to remove it all together but then the point of having people learn mechanics on lower difficulties has failed.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @Digit.1823 said:

    @Clyan.1593 said:
    In general I think there should be a super easy mode, meaning you take very little dmg, but everything else is the same. You get NO reward for it, except, you can learn the mechanics.

    While your suggestion is appreciated, and please don't get me wrong, this suggestion has been made before and has been shot down before.

    There are a lot of insta kill mechanics in raids as it is, you cannot balance around those simply by "reducing damage". I mean how does one reduce something that kills you instantly regardless?

    Also, if the damage thresh hold is too low then why bother avoiding mechanics anyway? I mean if the green on VG only does 10% health damage instead of the current 70% (or somewhere around that number) then why ever bother going for the green circle? Might not be the best example since even with 70% damage it gets out healed anyway, but i hope you get the point i'm trying to make.

    See simply reducing damage in order to force people to learn mechanics is a bad suggestion in and of itself since it promotes nothing but lazy game play. Imagine someone coming from super easy mode to normal mode and then suddenly finding out he actually has to run around Sabatha's flame wall since he can no longer face tank it? Or finding out that the green @ vg actually does quite a bit of hefty damage?

    Or what about Slothasor's poison? I mean if you get super low damage anyway then you might just as well drop it on top of the group if it doesn't really matter, right? Oh how i imagine people would react if someone from super easy mode comes into normal mode slothasor and just drops the poison smack dab on the group because hey: "uuh, that's what we always do in super easy mode". Sounds a bit silly, but guaranteed that this is going to happen.

    And as a final small example, how does one reduce damage on Dhuum's soul split when you need to do a green circle? If you don't grab enough orbs that's game over, at least that's how it currently works. How would one go about fixing that kind of mechanic for an easier setting? You either can't, or you need to remove it all together but then the point of having people learn mechanics on lower difficulties has failed.

    Unfortunately you have the festival raid with Freezie. The mechanic are not instant death, however they are punishing if you stand in them. This festival raid in my opinion is a very strong reason why an easy mode raid would work. I had pugged this bad boy since the start of the festival with very few problems. When problems occurred we made adjustments and then succeeded.

    Gw2 efficiency may not be the best way to measure the success of this either, since this is a festival, which is generally very popular content to begin with, allowing free to play accounts and other accounts not attached to efficiency to hop and try the content.

  • We need both easy and hard modes

    i have never done them because they are too intimidating tbh I am not much of a pve player

  • Digit.1823Digit.1823 Member ✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Digit.1823 said:

    @Clyan.1593 said:
    In general I think there should be a super easy mode, meaning you take very little dmg, but everything else is the same. You get NO reward for it, except, you can learn the mechanics.

    While your suggestion is appreciated, and please don't get me wrong, this suggestion has been made before and has been shot down before.

    There are a lot of insta kill mechanics in raids as it is, you cannot balance around those simply by "reducing damage". I mean how does one reduce something that kills you instantly regardless?

    Also, if the damage thresh hold is too low then why bother avoiding mechanics anyway? I mean if the green on VG only does 10% health damage instead of the current 70% (or somewhere around that number) then why ever bother going for the green circle? Might not be the best example since even with 70% damage it gets out healed anyway, but i hope you get the point i'm trying to make.

    See simply reducing damage in order to force people to learn mechanics is a bad suggestion in and of itself since it promotes nothing but lazy game play. Imagine someone coming from super easy mode to normal mode and then suddenly finding out he actually has to run around Sabatha's flame wall since he can no longer face tank it? Or finding out that the green @ vg actually does quite a bit of hefty damage?

    Or what about Slothasor's poison? I mean if you get super low damage anyway then you might just as well drop it on top of the group if it doesn't really matter, right? Oh how i imagine people would react if someone from super easy mode comes into normal mode slothasor and just drops the poison smack dab on the group because hey: "uuh, that's what we always do in super easy mode". Sounds a bit silly, but guaranteed that this is going to happen.

    And as a final small example, how does one reduce damage on Dhuum's soul split when you need to do a green circle? If you don't grab enough orbs that's game over, at least that's how it currently works. How would one go about fixing that kind of mechanic for an easier setting? You either can't, or you need to remove it all together but then the point of having people learn mechanics on lower difficulties has failed.

    Unfortunately you have the festival raid with Freezie. The mechanic are not instant death, however they are punishing if you stand in them. This festival raid in my opinion is a very strong reason why an easy mode raid would work. I had pugged this bad boy since the start of the festival with very few problems. When problems occurred we made adjustments and then succeeded.

    Gw2 efficiency may not be the best way to measure the success of this either, since this is a festival, which is generally very popular content to begin with, allowing free to play accounts and other accounts not attached to efficiency to hop and try the content.

    Yeah cool, but Freezie's mechanics were not made with insta death in mind anyway so ...eh....

    Also i would argue that you should be careful with the "in my experience" argument, because (hurr durr) in my experience pugging Freezie is absolute hell if i am not on a support/healing profession. Both our viewpoints are equally valid. The pug groups i had people are still oblivious to mechanics, like letting the snowball stack on top of the team without running away, standing in the blue frozen lines, eating the kamehamefreeze wave. (On EU btw, dunno if that matters)

    Funnily enough, the point actually is because me being on support/healer is the fact you're able to carry so ridiculously hard anyway is why we get the kill regardless of the absolute trash players in the squad. Hell maybe even the fact that being able to carry so hard is what makes people lazy, because hey i can just ignore mechanics anyway.

    I dunno...seems like i would appreciate having your experience instead of my current one.

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Digit.1823 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Digit.1823 said:

    @Clyan.1593 said:
    In general I think there should be a super easy mode, meaning you take very little dmg, but everything else is the same. You get NO reward for it, except, you can learn the mechanics.

    While your suggestion is appreciated, and please don't get me wrong, this suggestion has been made before and has been shot down before.

    There are a lot of insta kill mechanics in raids as it is, you cannot balance around those simply by "reducing damage". I mean how does one reduce something that kills you instantly regardless?

    Also, if the damage thresh hold is too low then why bother avoiding mechanics anyway? I mean if the green on VG only does 10% health damage instead of the current 70% (or somewhere around that number) then why ever bother going for the green circle? Might not be the best example since even with 70% damage it gets out healed anyway, but i hope you get the point i'm trying to make.

    See simply reducing damage in order to force people to learn mechanics is a bad suggestion in and of itself since it promotes nothing but lazy game play. Imagine someone coming from super easy mode to normal mode and then suddenly finding out he actually has to run around Sabatha's flame wall since he can no longer face tank it? Or finding out that the green @ vg actually does quite a bit of hefty damage?

    Or what about Slothasor's poison? I mean if you get super low damage anyway then you might just as well drop it on top of the group if it doesn't really matter, right? Oh how i imagine people would react if someone from super easy mode comes into normal mode slothasor and just drops the poison smack dab on the group because hey: "uuh, that's what we always do in super easy mode". Sounds a bit silly, but guaranteed that this is going to happen.

    And as a final small example, how does one reduce damage on Dhuum's soul split when you need to do a green circle? If you don't grab enough orbs that's game over, at least that's how it currently works. How would one go about fixing that kind of mechanic for an easier setting? You either can't, or you need to remove it all together but then the point of having people learn mechanics on lower difficulties has failed.

    Unfortunately you have the festival raid with Freezie. The mechanic are not instant death, however they are punishing if you stand in them. This festival raid in my opinion is a very strong reason why an easy mode raid would work. I had pugged this bad boy since the start of the festival with very few problems. When problems occurred we made adjustments and then succeeded.

    Gw2 efficiency may not be the best way to measure the success of this either, since this is a festival, which is generally very popular content to begin with, allowing free to play accounts and other accounts not attached to efficiency to hop and try the content.

    Yeah cool, but Freezie's mechanics were not made with insta death in mind anyway so ...eh....

    Also i would argue that you should be careful with the "in my experience" argument, because (hurr durr) in my experience pugging Freezie is absolute hell if i am not on a support/healing profession. Both our viewpoints are equally valid. The pug groups i had people are still oblivious to mechanics, like letting the snowball stack on top of the team without running away, standing in the blue frozen lines, eating the kamehamefreeze wave. (On EU btw, dunno if that matters)

    Funnily enough, the point actually is because me being on support/healer is the fact you're able to carry so ridiculously hard anyway is why we get the kill regardless of the absolute trash players in the squad. Hell maybe even the fact that being able to carry so hard is what makes people lazy, because hey i can just ignore mechanics anyway.

    I dunno...seems like i would appreciate having your experience instead of my current one.

    Same thing on EU. I pugged it every day till now (sometimes together with a friend) and most of the time I'm on my druid to prevent wipes because it turned out what you described perfectly in your post. It's funny to see a snowball ticking with a loud noise on one single spot (= the player) and also the white lines when they rapidly taking away players health while he is not moving at all. 4 out of 5 players go down too if they are chased by the wall. I even had druids in the squad with no clue at all about their profession a.k.a not using celestial avatar for a millisecond and I wouldn't even mind their gear.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @Vinceman.4572 said:

    @Digit.1823 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Digit.1823 said:

    @Clyan.1593 said:
    In general I think there should be a super easy mode, meaning you take very little dmg, but everything else is the same. You get NO reward for it, except, you can learn the mechanics.

    While your suggestion is appreciated, and please don't get me wrong, this suggestion has been made before and has been shot down before.

    There are a lot of insta kill mechanics in raids as it is, you cannot balance around those simply by "reducing damage". I mean how does one reduce something that kills you instantly regardless?

    Also, if the damage thresh hold is too low then why bother avoiding mechanics anyway? I mean if the green on VG only does 10% health damage instead of the current 70% (or somewhere around that number) then why ever bother going for the green circle? Might not be the best example since even with 70% damage it gets out healed anyway, but i hope you get the point i'm trying to make.

    See simply reducing damage in order to force people to learn mechanics is a bad suggestion in and of itself since it promotes nothing but lazy game play. Imagine someone coming from super easy mode to normal mode and then suddenly finding out he actually has to run around Sabatha's flame wall since he can no longer face tank it? Or finding out that the green @ vg actually does quite a bit of hefty damage?

    Or what about Slothasor's poison? I mean if you get super low damage anyway then you might just as well drop it on top of the group if it doesn't really matter, right? Oh how i imagine people would react if someone from super easy mode comes into normal mode slothasor and just drops the poison smack dab on the group because hey: "uuh, that's what we always do in super easy mode". Sounds a bit silly, but guaranteed that this is going to happen.

    And as a final small example, how does one reduce damage on Dhuum's soul split when you need to do a green circle? If you don't grab enough orbs that's game over, at least that's how it currently works. How would one go about fixing that kind of mechanic for an easier setting? You either can't, or you need to remove it all together but then the point of having people learn mechanics on lower difficulties has failed.

    Unfortunately you have the festival raid with Freezie. The mechanic are not instant death, however they are punishing if you stand in them. This festival raid in my opinion is a very strong reason why an easy mode raid would work. I had pugged this bad boy since the start of the festival with very few problems. When problems occurred we made adjustments and then succeeded.

    Gw2 efficiency may not be the best way to measure the success of this either, since this is a festival, which is generally very popular content to begin with, allowing free to play accounts and other accounts not attached to efficiency to hop and try the content.

    Yeah cool, but Freezie's mechanics were not made with insta death in mind anyway so ...eh....

    Also i would argue that you should be careful with the "in my experience" argument, because (hurr durr) in my experience pugging Freezie is absolute hell if i am not on a support/healing profession. Both our viewpoints are equally valid. The pug groups i had people are still oblivious to mechanics, like letting the snowball stack on top of the team without running away, standing in the blue frozen lines, eating the kamehamefreeze wave. (On EU btw, dunno if that matters)

    Funnily enough, the point actually is because me being on support/healer is the fact you're able to carry so ridiculously hard anyway is why we get the kill regardless of the absolute trash players in the squad. Hell maybe even the fact that being able to carry so hard is what makes people lazy, because hey i can just ignore mechanics anyway.

    I dunno...seems like i would appreciate having your experience instead of my current one.

    Same thing on EU. I pugged it every day till now (sometimes together with a friend) and most of the time I'm on my druid to prevent wipes because it turned out what you described perfectly in your post. It's funny to see a snowball ticking with a loud noise on one single spot (= the player) and also the white lines when they rapidly taking away players health while he is not moving at all. 4 out of 5 players go down too if they are chased by the wall. I even had druids in the squad with no clue at all about their profession a.k.a not using celestial avatar for a millisecond and I wouldn't even mind their gear.

    I experienced this my first two times on NA, however after that people seemed to understand. I do have commanders that would meticulously explain the entire fight and call mechanics as they happened. I only played DPS during this encounter as well and had both Druid and scourge act as support.

  • Clyan.1593Clyan.1593 Member ✭✭✭
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @Digit.1823 said:

    @Clyan.1593 said:
    In general I think there should be a super easy mode, meaning you take very little dmg, but everything else is the same. You get NO reward for it, except, you can learn the mechanics.

    While your suggestion is appreciated, and please don't get me wrong, this suggestion has been made before and has been shot down before.

    There are a lot of insta kill mechanics in raids as it is, you cannot balance around those simply by "reducing damage". I mean how does one reduce something that kills you instantly regardless?

    Also, if the damage thresh hold is too low then why bother avoiding mechanics anyway? I mean if the green on VG only does 10% health damage instead of the current 70% (or somewhere around that number) then why ever bother going for the green circle? Might not be the best example since even with 70% damage it gets out healed anyway, but i hope you get the point i'm trying to make.

    See simply reducing damage in order to force people to learn mechanics is a bad suggestion in and of itself since it promotes nothing but lazy game play. Imagine someone coming from super easy mode to normal mode and then suddenly finding out he actually has to run around Sabatha's flame wall since he can no longer face tank it? Or finding out that the green @ vg actually does quite a bit of hefty damage?

    Or what about Slothasor's poison? I mean if you get super low damage anyway then you might just as well drop it on top of the group if it doesn't really matter, right? Oh how i imagine people would react if someone from super easy mode comes into normal mode slothasor and just drops the poison smack dab on the group because hey: "uuh, that's what we always do in super easy mode". Sounds a bit silly, but guaranteed that this is going to happen.

    And as a final small example, how does one reduce damage on Dhuum's soul split when you need to do a green circle? If you don't grab enough orbs that's game over, at least that's how it currently works. How would one go about fixing that kind of mechanic for an easier setting? You either can't, or you need to remove it all together but then the point of having people learn mechanics on lower difficulties has failed.

    Of course one shot mechanics should stay, as for how they function I'd consider them to be more mechanical than just a simple dmg output.

    I don't think you can't balance it. For Sloth just reduce the green poison dmg but keep the dmg from the poison you drop the same. Yes you can balance it, the idea that this isn't possible derives from the radical stance against the idea of an easy mode. For Dhuum it's the same. Just reduce the dmg on things that are not mechanical. Failing in collecting enough orbs will still be game over. And so on.

    Personally I feel like you don't even try to wrap your head around it. Claiming the bosses can't be balanced in any other way as they are right now is just silly.

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Clyan.1593 said:

    @Digit.1823 said:

    @Clyan.1593 said:
    In general I think there should be a super easy mode, meaning you take very little dmg, but everything else is the same. You get NO reward for it, except, you can learn the mechanics.

    While your suggestion is appreciated, and please don't get me wrong, this suggestion has been made before and has been shot down before.

    There are a lot of insta kill mechanics in raids as it is, you cannot balance around those simply by "reducing damage". I mean how does one reduce something that kills you instantly regardless?

    Also, if the damage thresh hold is too low then why bother avoiding mechanics anyway? I mean if the green on VG only does 10% health damage instead of the current 70% (or somewhere around that number) then why ever bother going for the green circle? Might not be the best example since even with 70% damage it gets out healed anyway, but i hope you get the point i'm trying to make.

    See simply reducing damage in order to force people to learn mechanics is a bad suggestion in and of itself since it promotes nothing but lazy game play. Imagine someone coming from super easy mode to normal mode and then suddenly finding out he actually has to run around Sabatha's flame wall since he can no longer face tank it? Or finding out that the green @ vg actually does quite a bit of hefty damage?

    Or what about Slothasor's poison? I mean if you get super low damage anyway then you might just as well drop it on top of the group if it doesn't really matter, right? Oh how i imagine people would react if someone from super easy mode comes into normal mode slothasor and just drops the poison smack dab on the group because hey: "uuh, that's what we always do in super easy mode". Sounds a bit silly, but guaranteed that this is going to happen.

    And as a final small example, how does one reduce damage on Dhuum's soul split when you need to do a green circle? If you don't grab enough orbs that's game over, at least that's how it currently works. How would one go about fixing that kind of mechanic for an easier setting? You either can't, or you need to remove it all together but then the point of having people learn mechanics on lower difficulties has failed.

    Of course one shot mechanics should stay, as for how they function I'd consider them to be more mechanical than just a simple dmg output.

    I don't think you can't balance it. For Sloth just reduce the green poison dmg but keep the dmg from the poison you drop the same. Yes you can balance it, the idea that this isn't possible derives from the radical stance against the idea of an easy mode. For Dhuum it's the same. Just reduce the dmg on things that are not mechanical. Failing in collecting enough orbs will still be game over. And so on.

    Personally I feel like you don't even try to wrap your head around it. Claiming the bosses can't be balanced in any other way as they are right now is just silly.

    It's not about the possibility of a satisfying balancing it's about the amount of work they'd have to invest to get this done properly. Here is the thing, the actual release cycles for raids and fractals are still too long and also bugfixes need too much time. I mean they can't even release living stories within the mentioned 2-3 months. Overall the investment is not worth at all while we have bosses like MO, Escort, Samarog, Cairn and some others that aren't really "hard".

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • Clyan.1593Clyan.1593 Member ✭✭✭
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @Vinceman.4572 said:

    @Clyan.1593 said:

    @Digit.1823 said:

    @Clyan.1593 said:
    In general I think there should be a super easy mode, meaning you take very little dmg, but everything else is the same. You get NO reward for it, except, you can learn the mechanics.

    While your suggestion is appreciated, and please don't get me wrong, this suggestion has been made before and has been shot down before.

    There are a lot of insta kill mechanics in raids as it is, you cannot balance around those simply by "reducing damage". I mean how does one reduce something that kills you instantly regardless?

    Also, if the damage thresh hold is too low then why bother avoiding mechanics anyway? I mean if the green on VG only does 10% health damage instead of the current 70% (or somewhere around that number) then why ever bother going for the green circle? Might not be the best example since even with 70% damage it gets out healed anyway, but i hope you get the point i'm trying to make.

    See simply reducing damage in order to force people to learn mechanics is a bad suggestion in and of itself since it promotes nothing but lazy game play. Imagine someone coming from super easy mode to normal mode and then suddenly finding out he actually has to run around Sabatha's flame wall since he can no longer face tank it? Or finding out that the green @ vg actually does quite a bit of hefty damage?

    Or what about Slothasor's poison? I mean if you get super low damage anyway then you might just as well drop it on top of the group if it doesn't really matter, right? Oh how i imagine people would react if someone from super easy mode comes into normal mode slothasor and just drops the poison smack dab on the group because hey: "uuh, that's what we always do in super easy mode". Sounds a bit silly, but guaranteed that this is going to happen.

    And as a final small example, how does one reduce damage on Dhuum's soul split when you need to do a green circle? If you don't grab enough orbs that's game over, at least that's how it currently works. How would one go about fixing that kind of mechanic for an easier setting? You either can't, or you need to remove it all together but then the point of having people learn mechanics on lower difficulties has failed.

    Of course one shot mechanics should stay, as for how they function I'd consider them to be more mechanical than just a simple dmg output.

    I don't think you can't balance it. For Sloth just reduce the green poison dmg but keep the dmg from the poison you drop the same. Yes you can balance it, the idea that this isn't possible derives from the radical stance against the idea of an easy mode. For Dhuum it's the same. Just reduce the dmg on things that are not mechanical. Failing in collecting enough orbs will still be game over. And so on.

    Personally I feel like you don't even try to wrap your head around it. Claiming the bosses can't be balanced in any other way as they are right now is just silly.

    It's not about the possibility of a satisfying balancing it's about the amount of work they'd have to invest to get this done properly. Here is the thing, the actual release cycles for raids and fractals are still too long and also bugfixes need too much time. I mean they can't even release living stories within the mentioned 2-3 months. Overall the investment is not worth at all while we have bosses like MO, Escort, Samarog, Cairn and some others that aren't really "hard".

    Yaya, now the time schedule is the problem. People like you just trigger me. If you don't like the idea of an easy mode then just say it. Don't try to make up new arguments just so you can stay on course.
    The developers' don't have enough time blablabla. Fact is if the majority of the community wants something they will get it. They want the money, we want the content. It's just that easy. That's how it has been ever since money was invented. Some of you might think differently since developers have integrity too, but this is not about interfering with lore or visual design, it's purely technical.
    And yes, not every boss needs an easy mode, I agree, that still doesn't mean there can be for other bosses.

  • yann.1946yann.1946 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids have problems, but we need a better solution

    @Clyan.1593 said:

    @Vinceman.4572 said:

    @Clyan.1593 said:

    @Digit.1823 said:

    @Clyan.1593 said:
    In general I think there should be a super easy mode, meaning you take very little dmg, but everything else is the same. You get NO reward for it, except, you can learn the mechanics.

    While your suggestion is appreciated, and please don't get me wrong, this suggestion has been made before and has been shot down before.

    There are a lot of insta kill mechanics in raids as it is, you cannot balance around those simply by "reducing damage". I mean how does one reduce something that kills you instantly regardless?

    Also, if the damage thresh hold is too low then why bother avoiding mechanics anyway? I mean if the green on VG only does 10% health damage instead of the current 70% (or somewhere around that number) then why ever bother going for the green circle? Might not be the best example since even with 70% damage it gets out healed anyway, but i hope you get the point i'm trying to make.

    See simply reducing damage in order to force people to learn mechanics is a bad suggestion in and of itself since it promotes nothing but lazy game play. Imagine someone coming from super easy mode to normal mode and then suddenly finding out he actually has to run around Sabatha's flame wall since he can no longer face tank it? Or finding out that the green @ vg actually does quite a bit of hefty damage?

    Or what about Slothasor's poison? I mean if you get super low damage anyway then you might just as well drop it on top of the group if it doesn't really matter, right? Oh how i imagine people would react if someone from super easy mode comes into normal mode slothasor and just drops the poison smack dab on the group because hey: "uuh, that's what we always do in super easy mode". Sounds a bit silly, but guaranteed that this is going to happen.

    And as a final small example, how does one reduce damage on Dhuum's soul split when you need to do a green circle? If you don't grab enough orbs that's game over, at least that's how it currently works. How would one go about fixing that kind of mechanic for an easier setting? You either can't, or you need to remove it all together but then the point of having people learn mechanics on lower difficulties has failed.

    Of course one shot mechanics should stay, as for how they function I'd consider them to be more mechanical than just a simple dmg output.

    I don't think you can't balance it. For Sloth just reduce the green poison dmg but keep the dmg from the poison you drop the same. Yes you can balance it, the idea that this isn't possible derives from the radical stance against the idea of an easy mode. For Dhuum it's the same. Just reduce the dmg on things that are not mechanical. Failing in collecting enough orbs will still be game over. And so on.

    Personally I feel like you don't even try to wrap your head around it. Claiming the bosses can't be balanced in any other way as they are right now is just silly.

    It's not about the possibility of a satisfying balancing it's about the amount of work they'd have to invest to get this done properly. Here is the thing, the actual release cycles for raids and fractals are still too long and also bugfixes need too much time. I mean they can't even release living stories within the mentioned 2-3 months. Overall the investment is not worth at all while we have bosses like MO, Escort, Samarog, Cairn and some others that aren't really "hard".

    Yaya, now the time schedule is the problem. People like you just trigger me. If you don't like the idea of an easy mode then just say it. Don't try to make up new arguments just so you can stay on course.
    The developers' don't have enough time blablabla. Fact is if the majority of the community wants something they will get it. They want the money, we want the content. It's just that easy. That's how it has been ever since money was invented. Some of you might think differently since developers have integrity too, but this is not about interfering with lore or visual design, it's purely technical.
    And yes, not every boss needs an easy mode, I agree, that still doesn't mean there can be for other bosses.

    You do realise somebody can give multiple arguments right.

    And if you look at everything people are asking for easy mode then you should realise that perfect version is impossible.

    Fact is if an addition is valued for the game or the devs just really wanna do it then the devs will add it, not if the mayority wants it. (BTW how high do you think the reception for easy mode will be)

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 24, 2018
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Clyan.1593 said:
    Yaya, now the time schedule is the problem. People like you just trigger me. If you don't like the idea of an easy mode then just say it. Don't try to make up new arguments just so you can stay on course.
    The developers' don't have enough time blablabla. Fact is if the majority of the community wants something they will get it. They want the money, we want the content. It's just that easy. That's how it has been ever since money was invented. Some of you might think differently since developers have integrity too, but this is not about interfering with lore or visual design, it's purely technical.
    And yes, not every boss needs an easy mode, I agree, that still doesn't mean there can be for other bosses.

    No, it's people like you stepping into a thread with 85 pages and accuse others like me who have already made a fair statement about easy mode raids and you haven't read those proper arguments for and against an easy mode. I demand you do that before making false claims! This is disgusting and disrespecting at its finest, really! Usually it's not worth any more time to continue discussing with you.

    But hey it's christmas. I tell you what: There isn't a majority of the community wanting easy mode raids. The huge majority of casuals isn't even interested in fractals as you can see every day in the lfg, inside of fractals and while browsing through reddit & this forum.
    Furthermore if easy mode raids would be that kind of cash cow we'd already have them. They are not but instead they turned out to be more successful than Anet expected. And the model is clear: Content for a special target audience that wants to have a little bit of challenging content while 99% of the game is casually easy.
    Don't you think that if they have the resources, if they see the need of easy mode raids and if they want to have the money (of a fictional subset of players you claim to exist) they would at least announce the development of easy mode raids? Instead we got one single clear statement which was posted more than once in this thread you haven't read properly: There are no plans to an easy mode.
    I don't know in what kind of business you are working in (if you do) but I think we can be very sure that Anet has the tools to monitor player behaviour and know where to set the main focus. It's not raids or even easy mode raids otherwise we would get more content like new fracs and new raid wings. It's things like beetle racing, living stories and other small side stories/events/things. Not to mention glider/mount skins that bring in most of the money.

    I'll repeat my suggestions about an easy mode I have made several times in this thread now:
    1. Delete one LS team so we get a living story every 6 months
    2. Take this team to develop easy mode raids
    Interlude: The majority of the community would rip Anet into pieces.
    3. Balance properly to:

    • blues & greens from champ boxes (like we get now predominantly)
    • 10-20s per boss
    • one rare per boss (see world bosses & Freezie)
    • 10-20 magnetite shards & gaeting crystals per week as cap
    • very little chance of getting a mini or exotic weapon (see world bosses & Freezie)
    • no access to legendary armor
    • no accesss to raid specific armor & weapon skins
    • no LIs and no gaeting crystals
    1. Afterwards shift this team permanently to the raid dev team because GW2 will now be a raid centric game since "majority of the community" (citation: Clyan) wants to raid.

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