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A Note on Future Boon Direction


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@"Tsukasu.2705" said:While I appreciate the increased communication, ANet's stated goal and stated plan of action are in direct conflict.

Stated Goal: "a world where various professions are specialized at offering different boons and not all boons can (or should!) be provided by a single profession."Stated Solution: "new attribute combinations for the coming year to offer you better options"

Currently, there is only 1 attribute that directly affects boons.... Concentration.Concentration just happens to affect ALL of a players outgoing boons, not just "specialized ones".

Your stated goal is to move away from stacking boon application duties on a few players, but your solution is to offer them more ways to get a stat that does the exact thing you are trying to stop?

If you are planning to change how concentration works or to add in a new boon related stat entirely that would be a whole different discussion, and this post doesn't make it sound like this is the case at all.

Wouldn't a better solution be to use Traits, Skills, Runes, or Sigils to accomplish this change? These solutions are MUCH lower cost and impact on your player base, and actually stand a chance at creating your desired outcome.

Confusion aside, thanks for the heads up.

Wow, this comment is packed full of very useful adviseThanks,(except the traits, skills, runes, sigils, etc. would have to go above the standard concentration stats themselves in terms of complexity).

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@Irenio CalmonHuang.2048 said:Thanks for the general feedback and thoughts thus far.

A quick clarification:

The addition of new attribute combinations does not mean that balance updates, re-works and other changes targeting boon diversity will stop.

We're not going to add either upgrade changes OR attributes combinations OR profession updates to offer those boon-centric playstyles as solid options.

We're going to do ALL of the above.

Sounds like good stuff! Ty for the info!

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I remain unimpressed. The truth is that you did not so much nerf boon chrono - as all the people playing raids and fractal, dungeons, and meta events with chronos. You see a properly geared boon chrono has crap DPS, and in return they are able to buff everyone else in their party of squad. All the peopel crowing about how great the destruction of teh chrono class was probably never play raids, fractals, or dungeons. I played mine yesterday after the update came out with a group of friends making fun of the sadness and despair that had set in after people spent countless hours and gold gearing a boon chrono and learning ot play it competently. It was a fractal we usually have zero trouble with on any tier. after the thrid party wipe they said "play it right, we're sorry" - and I said "I am playing it right. They nerfed you more than me - my crap DPS is unchanged, but you - you who thought the chrono needed to be nerfed and laughed about the crybabies whose class was destroyed - you were the ones nerfed". If you thought toxicity in fractals and raids was bad before - then buckle up - because it's already getting far worse without a chrono to help carry the weaker players with buffs, boons, and CC. I don't know where you start making chrono's whole after this. The class has no point or purpose now, and after the nerf on the mirage as well I wonder if I just need to re-cycle both my mesmers. Everything has been built around chrono and druid boons a long time. I was excited about winterday - tried to take the rune and sigil rework that drove rune and sigil prices into the stratosphere in stride, but the chrono decimation was almost capricious. You destroyed the classes core ability and replaced it with nothing. I have gear only good for boon sharing with a ton of time and gold invested all of which is now worthless. I used to main DPS's for raids and fractals - and I still have those characters, geared and ready 8 more total usually playing the one currently least nerfed. I was so excited for Winterday, and with the destruction of the chrono - all that excitement and joy was sucked from me, and don't even feel like doing toypocalype or anything else. I don't know how it was managed - but the GW2 universe once filled with vibrant color for me, went grey. I've rolled with a lot of nerfs and reworks - but never has a class so central to the meta for the game been nuked before. So right now - I'm not your biggest fan, and you're not getting a thumbs up or high 5 from me on this. I'm praying you reconsider and put the chrono back, or at least give it a new purpose in the game because right now it's more usless than a druid that can't heal.

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@Jaidy.1824 said:Now if you could do this with applying conditions. Where a single class can't drop all possible condi's on you, w'r on the right track.

Agreed.

Burn = Guardians, to an extent BerzerkersConfusion, Stun = MesmersBleeds, Launches = Rangers, WarriorsPoison, Immobilized = ThievesAgony = Necros (exception, Chill for Reapers)Elementalists = By Element (Fire = Burn, Air = Vulnerable, Earth = Bleeds, Water = Chill)Revenant = By LegendEtc.

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@Irenio CalmonHuang.2048It would be really interesting to see anet people explaining their vision in the next stream.

All with showing performance of the most mentioned classes on Golem, keeping up boons and doing decent damage in synergy with different compositions.So we are talking at least 3-4 compositions that show us how different classes can perform same roles.

It doesn't even have to be live. It could be prerecorded material.

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Interesting. can you give us some hints on what's planned for those stat combos, and who is responsible for what boon? a free stat select in the mail would be nice, since stats have changed so rapidly.

Personally, id like to see profession builds give a large subset of the boons, but have overlap, so no boon becomes dependent on a profession.

  1. Quickness and Alacrity -> Chronomancer, Firebrand, Renegade
  2. Might, Fury, Retaliation -> Scourge, Deadeye, Druid
  3. Protection,Regeneration,Vigor -> Tempest, Herald
  4. Healing / Barrier -> Scourge, Druid, Tempest

For full support, pick one from each category. No one "needs" a chrono or a druid, no one "needs" a firebrand.

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@Irenio CalmonHuang.2048 said:Thanks for the general feedback and thoughts thus far.

A quick clarification:

The addition of new attribute combinations does not mean that balance updates, re-works and other changes targeting boon diversity will stop.

We're not going to add either upgrade changes OR attributes combinations OR profession updates to offer those boon-centric playstyles as solid options.

We're going to do ALL of the above.

Hey Irenio,

Have you considered spreading boons among different specs of the same class? Instead of one traitline (liek chaos for chrono) providing it all?

For instance, on tempest, if the aura-share trait was moved to tempest line, and swapped with the heal on aura in the water line, then tempest could opt to be an offensive support (with fire/air/tempest providing might and fury for the group) or a defensive one (with water/earth tempest providing vigor/regen/protection to the group).

It would be a great option for tempest if it could choose to buff auras at the cost of dps in the fire and air lines, with auras providing might again, static auras providing quickness, etc. All at the cost of having to choose aura traits instead of the dps ones.

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3rd major class change in less than a year's time. So the last 6 months I've spent gearing up my first class (Chrono) to finally be able to do raids has just been a complete waste of my free time and money. Thanks Anet, couldn't have done it without you! Look forward to seeing what you come up with next regarding overall class killing.

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@"Irenio CalmonHuang.2048" said:Greetings Tyrians!

We are aware that the previous update to Runes and Sigils, coupled with the balance updates released this week, created a situation where boon duration has become a more highly-valued resource.

As you can see in the December 11 release notes, we’re moving toward a world where various professions are specialized at offering different boons and not all boons can (or should!) be provided by a single profession.

Toward that end, we wanted to let you know that we’re looking at new attribute combinations for the coming year to offer you better options. You may want to watch for those updates before making significant changes to your gear.

Merry Wintersday!

~GW2 Systems Team

Hi Irenio

I want to give some feedback about the general direction direction of balance. One thing that's disconcerting is the place of FB vs Chronomancer. Chronomancer stills holds the top spot in raid content, its 10 party boon support is still pretty insane and it's only become more so now that chrono no longer needs to take boon duration at all to maintain uptime in 10 man content.

While that's good, it's the total opposite for fractals. Because chronomancer balance is more and more becoming centered around Signet of Inspiration. In fractals Chronomancers are still required to bring 100% BD which, mind me, is partially offset by chaos boon duration and potion conversion. It still causes conflict with the support direction of things like Firebrand which is arguably the better 5 party support, but also arguably the worst best pick for fractals altogether having worse burst dps and centered around buffing condition centered playstyles, not to mention that it has worse cc which cannot as easily be substituted by 4 other players as it can be with 9, not to forget it brings no alacrity either, which means its only a buff to the number of auto attacks a person can do.

The other concern is the distribution of vulnerability across builds. Currently the most reliable source of vulnerability is from warriors, druids and condi holos. which is a second thought for everything except the largos twins, but its a quiet concern. Please keep this in mind when balancing for 5 and 10 man groups.

Edit: When we couple these issues together with the other issues that others have brought up here, its pretty evident that the game is going to be very unfriendly for new players. I honestly think its better to keep the most complex and roles confined to a couple spots on a raid roster, instead of conflating what works here and what works there. Its just going to get very messy and it will make it much harder for new players to get clears in raids and other endgame content.

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@"Tsukasu.2705" said:Stated Goal: "a world where various professions are specialized at offering different boons and not all boons can (or should!) be provided by a single profession."Stated Solution: "new attribute combinations for the coming year to offer you better options"

Currently, there is only 1 attribute that directly affects boons.... Concentration.Concentration just happens to affect ALL of a players outgoing boons, not just "specialized ones".

Your stated goal is to move away from stacking boon application duties on a few players, but your solution is to offer them more ways to get a stat that does the exact thing you are trying to stop?

I don't think this was his point at all. Concentration providing bonuses to boons isn't the point or problem, Chronomancer providing all the boons alone was considered the problem. It reads like you mixed up 'profession' with 'attribute' somehow. If I were to guess, they are likely going to try to implement more hybrid dps-concentration gear types so that we don't use full chrono support anymore, but have a bunch of hybrids. On paper in a raid group, I imagine the goal would be that if you drop individual raid dps by a small amount but have them bring the buffs, then this will be compensated by not having a full-support who doesn't do much for dps. Whether this is a good design decision is a different debate.

@Avelorelle.8619 said:Maybe pick 3-4 classes that will have, like, really good and balanced support specializations (I mean balance between the support classes).Example: a class that has the strongest healing skills should get less buffs/CC. Class with good buffs gets less heals/CC. Class with good CC gets less heals/buffs. This distribution I see as fair one, where every class has its strong and weak sides and their roles don't overlap.

This has been the nature of healing classes as it is. Tempest is a better raw healer (last I checked) than a Druid, but nobody usually wants Tempest because they don't bring the offensive support. Personally I'd rather toss the offensive support for druid, and increased their healing/defensive support more to bring a better balance to healers so that no one in particular was always best in slot. Chronomancers weren't really on that same spectrum as healers, instead as a pure dps support with some defensive utility.

@wickedkae.4980 said:Imagine if we actually had a system where we were not so heavily punished by making changes to our gear.... IMAGINE THAT ANET! Can you imagine REAL customization that doesn't penalize the player? Perhaps your team can work on that as well.....

See: Guild Wars 1. But I know people get all uppity when I bring that up.

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As some other player has mentioned earlier in this thread:

  • The 'Concentration' stat is going to severely impact multiple builds once boons application is split among different classes.

Removing it from the game at this point might be a healthier option, unless there is some in-house concern about power-creep decimating PVE instanced content and the only solution is to make players run sub-optimal gear combinations in an effort to make bosses survive longer.

  • There is also the concern about trait reworks.

I sincerely hope that it is not something like the phalanx strength trait in warrior tactics trait-line spread across a few professions that would offer group-sharing of boons in such a passive manner.And if they gave every profession one such trait it will just end up making the community look for the one profession that loses the least to bring the most of it, much like how they turned to Chrono or the old PS warrior/current druid.

  • Skills like warrior's 'For great justice' or guardian's 'Stand your ground' are what I hope to see emulated if boon diversity is enacted.Give every core profession (not specialization!) an utility skill which applies in a radius certain lesser boons like might/fury/vigor for maybe 50% to 60% of its cool-down , while another utility skill grants greater boons like stability/retaliation at a lesser ratio to skill cool-down.

Every class currently has some redundant utility skills that nobody uses no matter how niche the encounter, just skim through the profession forums and you will find these useless skills easily. Edit: Replace these useless skills with party buffing ones.Making each 'DPS' slot take one of these party buffing skills will just reduce some some personal DPS but buff group DPS.

  • Let the players think for themselves to fit their situation:

If coupled with removing concentration stat/boon duration from the game it will actually make players think up combinations of how many of these utility skills they will need to keep in a group for optimal up-time to suit their needs in any situation (WvW, PVE) while freeing people up to run berserker/viper/healing/toughness stats as needed.It will reduce, in a raid setting, the number of supports from 2 boon bots + 2 healers to only 2 healers. So overall group DPS would be the same/higher even if people have to lose some utility slots to group buffing skills.

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So the problem is not boon duration on runes and sigial its the lack of Concentration. Your missing out on so much by only having a +% for boon duration over having concentration.

Now that more of a made up problem for balancing its the fact that your given a hand full of classes / elite spec the best boon and simply only have low end boons for every one else. If you cut duration you just get more of that class if you add more duration you STILL get more of that same class as the classes who do not give out the strong boons are not needed at all.

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@"Irenio CalmonHuang.2048" said:Greetings Tyrians!

We are aware that the previous update to Runes and Sigils, coupled with the balance updates released this week, created a situation where boon duration has become a more highly-valued resource.

As you can see in the December 11 release notes, we’re moving toward a world where various professions are specialized at offering different boons and not all boons can (or should!) be provided by a single profession.

Toward that end, we wanted to let you know that we’re looking at new attribute combinations for the coming year to offer you better options. You may want to watch for those updates before making significant changes to your gear.

Merry Wintersday!

~GW2 Systems Team

I would like to suggest a couple of things for the gearing up systems that help soften the blow on players when changes are made...

1- Add a Mystic Forge stat change function for Ascended back pieces and Ascended trinkets. Just like we have for Ascended weapons and armor. Edit- And stat changing for WvW Infusions as well please!

2- A smoother process to obtain Spirit Shards and Laurels for Ascended gear creation, Ascended stat swapping and for obtaining Infusions... (Perhaps the below suggestion could be made available as a perk to veteran players? Like this QoL option is unlocked after a player has met certain requirements... Such as... Maxed all crafting professions + core Tyria map completion + 5k AP...

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/62550/more-ways-to-obtain-spirit-shards-and-laurels

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as other already said. im not particulary looking forward to a 8/10 fixed spot meta.while i agree that chrono was/is overpowered it allowed a variation of the other classes you want to bring into your squad. with the prepatch support meta you had only 4 spots locked (2 chrono, 1 druid, 1 bs), now when if its even a slightly change and one more spot is resserved for whatever reason, we will already have 50% of the group "set in stone". sure it very hypothetical at the moment, but i fear that if SC comes up with "their" new meta, pug groups will follow and waiting times will only increase. or to say, it will be more restictiv, which imo is the wrong direction to go.so overall, thank you to all chrono players that allowed me to play what i want over the last few years.

edit: quite unhappy with your balance/important gear update scedule. bring 1 BIG balance/Gear patch every few months, or bring super small hotfixes each week. your current system with medíum updates, that are either based on future patches, or where future patches will make those changes already obsolet are the worst way to go. it makes me feel that your teams do not talk to each other and simply release what they have been burdend with, and the next team has to addapt to that. thy.

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Seems a little silly to start complaining before anything is even revealed, so I won't. Just hope there will be more interesting stat options than some of the previous new releases which nobody ended up using in the end.

A lack of gear is not a problem I share but there could certainly be some help for everyone who does have this issue. A compromise would be to introduce a special event NPC or something along those lines where you are able to freely reset your stats for a week or two after each major balance patch. Having all of my gear on all character automatically reset would be a freaking nightmare, though.

Concentration is going to be a balancing issue as long as +% Boon Duration exists. Similar things could be said about Expertise and any Condition Duration stat, I suppose. Going to be interesting to see those future changes and possible reworks.

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