Full Counter damage below auto attacks. — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Full Counter damage below auto attacks.

Strages.2950Strages.2950 Member ✭✭✭

I honestly never start a balance complaint thread, but after playing Spellbreaker post-patch, the changes to Full Counter are just completely out of touch with reality.

Lets begin by getting some things straight: Yes, the previous damage coefficient was high. This was, originally, because it counterbalances the loss of an adrenaline bar (2 instead of 3) and the damage that this third bar had on the original burst skills. In other words, spellbreaker burst skills do significantly less damage than core/berserker burst skills, thus full counter needs to hit hard. Could it have been shaved? Yeah, sure. Did it have to be neutered? Not at all.

That said: This nerf puts Full Counter, a Warrior burst skill and core mechanic of Spellbreaker, below the damage point of ALL Auto Attacks for every warrior weapon in the game. It's so low, in fact, that it can't even kill a mesmer clone on full zerk gear. What is the logic behind making a BURST skill that has a cooldown and the possibility of not being activated at all hit significantly lower than literally all the no cooldown, 100% activation skills in the game?

For god's sake even Dagger 3 has over twice its damage coefficient and has a 1/4s daze +1.5 stun. Hammer 4 is an AOE knockback that hits almost 4 times as hard. THERE ARE CONDI FOCUSED WEAPON SKILL AUTO ATTACKS WITH HIGHER BURST OUTPUT.

If you think the daze duration increase makes up for it, it just really really doesn't. There's stunbreaks everywhere, and the stability boonspam in the game is massive. Its like Anet never actually tested this stuff in an actual fight environment. In a 1v1 FC doesn't do enough damage to be worth losing the extra damage from a 3rd adrenaline bar, and in group fights the stability spam is so gross that the daze duration increase isn't even relevant.

At this point I'm just writing this out of frustration, because I know the possibility of it being reversed or even looked at is laughable. I just think its a shame Anet developed an interesting counter mechanic for an elite spec and now proceeds to just make it near useless in the game modes that it was (obviously) originally thought for. Frankly, its disappointing.

<1

Comments

  • cryorion.9532cryorion.9532 Member ✭✭✭

    They are not done yet. Something inside tells me that they will nerf spellbreaker even more. They are just making whole elite spec less and less fun to play...

    At this point there isn't much we can do about it. Anet obviously has different view on warrior class than we do, so even if there is proper feedback, ideas with common sense, it does not matter much.

    They can just nerf e.g. condi berserker to the ground too, because why not? They don't have to/want to explain why they do that, they just can.
    Most recent warrior balance changes hardly justify 3 months of work... literally nothing changed, except spellbreaker being weakened quite a lot in PvP/WvW.
    Last good significant change warrior got was changing peak performance to provide 33% damage buff (together with axe buffs in the same patch), later nerfed to 20%. Even after nerf, it was something that shifted warrior meta especially in PvE. After that, I can't think of any change that would actually changed stuff as much as PP.
    No buggy skills fixes, no skill polishing.
    And it is taking too long.

  • Couldn't agree more. Warriors were finally a feasible WvW team class. SBR gave them zone control and aoe burst enough to be effective in scale warfare. Now the bubble nerf made some sense even if I disagree with how they handled it to start. Now this ham handed nerf to a mechanic that is relatively balanced and the only people that complain about it are the ones not smart enough to avoid hitting the guy in FC. Its kitten.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 13, 2018

    @Necodominus.6203 said:

    @Blocki.4931 said:
    The skill had a nerf coming for a long time.

    I'm a warrior main and even I can say that. It's a harsh nerf for sure, but don't ignore what the skill is primarily used for and that is blocking damage and dealing some yourself. It still resets your F1, it still gives you stacks of Berserker's Power... But now we all get reminded that core warrior is and has been better for a long time now and more people might just start playing that again.

    The damage is supposed to be punishment for setting off the counter. That was part of the mechanic. its risk vs reward. But they just kitten all over it because of bad players being big babies.

    ... and the damage you get from blocking it still is punishment for setting off the counter. It still IS part of the mechanic. Interesting you raise the risk/reward because as it was in the past, the risk/reward profile of Full Counter was WAY off base. At BEST, there was some lost opportunity to make a better play. At least now, the opponent doesn't just wither under a blocked attack, even though they have to eat a longer duration daze. Seems like an advantageous trade off to me.

    In short: at best, a blocked attack should probably be on the order of the damage you get from retaliation.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 13, 2018

    I think the bottom line is that a block shouldn't do significant damage to a player unless it's a 'themed' build, like Guardian Retaliation a long way back. Whether a daze can be broken or not is neither here nor there. It does a low level of damage, it's not unreasonable to understand why. It could do NO damage and still be relevant to the concept of the skill and the class. The point and value of the counter attack is the interrupt, not the damage it makes; it makes some sense given that the damage is not the primary reason to use FC.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 13, 2018

    @Necodominus.6203 said:
    Its not a block its a counter.

    Sure, if you want to be pedantic. Doesn't change what I said. The value of the counter is the interrupt since FC is a skill used in anticipation of a strike ... or simply to delay one if your opponent doesn't want to eat a FC. If your opponent wants to eat a stun break just to hit you immediately after eating FC daze, that sounds just like the kind of counterplay Anet likes to include in the game and probably contributes to the reason they made this change.

    FC is not a burst in the sense like core warrior or berserker bursts are for DPS, so no, it shouldn't have a burst-like DPS. It uses adrenaline; that's where the comparison ends. The bottomline is that the opponent should have options; the old version offered none. That's what counterplay is about and counterplay is one of the elements that separates great PVP players from rotation-burners.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 13, 2018

    @Necodominus.6203 said:
    The why have a class built around the idea of being a powerful counter-force if its gets no advantage for doing so? a slightly longer daze is not even remotely comparable. You could get the same thing from a weapon or utility. Instead you give up two levels of adrenaline for a borderline useless utility.

    That's just a sensational, untrue statement. you DON"T get the same thing from a weapon or utility though ... you get it HERE. It's part of the theme of the class to interrupt players. If you haven't figured out how theme of a class affects changes Anet makes to classes in the game, go ahead and check the link in my sig. The fact is that more daze duration IS inline with the concept of Spellbreaker. If you think you give up too much to be a SB, you got other choices.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Atticus.7194 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    I think the bottom line is that a block shouldn't do significant damage to a player unless it's a 'themed' build, like Guardian Retaliation a long way back. Whether a daze can be broken or not is neither here nor there. It does a low level of damage, it's not unreasonable to understand why. It could do NO damage and still be relevant to the concept of the skill and the class. The point and value of the counter attack is the interrupt, not the damage it makes; it makes some sense given that it's a reactive skill, so the damage is not the primary reason to use FC.

    I think you're vastly underestimating how badly spellbreaker has been gutted, almost everything we used to run to provide damage and remove buffs has been nerfed into non use. Break Enchantments does so little damage and is overall so useless in the face of boon application it's not really run in any build. Breaching Strike does under 50% of what it originally did and only removes 2 boons, Winds of Disenchantment is nice but no longer necessary and that's about all we've got, or had.

    So what do you think prompts Anet to make these changes? Something to do with making sure SB maintains it's current rank in PVP? I don't think so. If you want a hint, check my sig.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Miko.4158Miko.4158 Member ✭✭✭

    its pants now. prefer my adrenaline block, you are better off with a dodge
    even if it is 'elite' be nice to be able to toggle or build around it via the traits

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Atticus.7194 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Atticus.7194 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    I think the bottom line is that a block shouldn't do significant damage to a player unless it's a 'themed' build, like Guardian Retaliation a long way back. Whether a daze can be broken or not is neither here nor there. It does a low level of damage, it's not unreasonable to understand why. It could do NO damage and still be relevant to the concept of the skill and the class. The point and value of the counter attack is the interrupt, not the damage it makes; it makes some sense given that it's a reactive skill, so the damage is not the primary reason to use FC.

    I think you're vastly underestimating how badly spellbreaker has been gutted, almost everything we used to run to provide damage and remove buffs has been nerfed into non use. Break Enchantments does so little damage and is overall so useless in the face of boon application it's not really run in any build. Breaching Strike does under 50% of what it originally did and only removes 2 boons, Winds of Disenchantment is nice but no longer necessary and that's about all we've got, or had.

    So what do you think prompts Anet to make these changes? Something to do with making sure SB maintains it's current rank in PVP? I don't think so. If you want a hint, check my sig.

    Who knows why Anet does anything ever.

    ... and then ...

    Also why do you keep talking about the dumb link in your profile, yes I saw it's an Anet post referencing the end of a pvp season and some herald changes, neato.

    Oh my goodness. Yeah we never have ANY idea why Anet does anything ... except the many times when they tell us I guess ><

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • @spartan.9421 said:

    @Spartacus.3192 said:
    i'll be honest and say FC hit too hard for everything ELSE the skill does. I mean come on if traited (and most builds will use those traits) it gives....

    Absorbs attack
    Dazes enemy
    Gives Protection
    Removes 1 boon per interrupted enemy
    Gives adrenaline per boon removed and does additional damage per boon removed
    Gives you a stack of attackers insight
    and then if you take revenge counter will give resistance copies condis and does extra damage
    OR magebane, 10% extra damage, might stacking, pulsing reveal and a pull.

    Thats a heck of a lot of stuff for one skill on a ~10 sec cd.

    Did they over nerf the damage?.....Agreed. Is it the end of the world? No.

    Wow! It's almost as if the skill was designed to punish players for triggering it, go figure!

    It only absorbs one attack if the skill is triggered, only dazes (used to be a .5 second daze, now is 1.5 seconds) if the hit lands, only removes boons if the hit lands, only gives adrenaline per boon if it lands IF traited, only copies three conditions (not transfer, mind you) with only 2 whopping seconds of resistance, and magebane only triggers if the hit lands.

    Full counter is unblockable so if the enemy is in the radius and doesn't dodge they will get hit. And you will still get most of the boons (and adrenal health) even if enemy is not in the radius because Full counter is procced by projectiles and aoe.

    I play spellbreaker its one of my fav classes to play alongside holo. You mentioned that its supposed to punish players that trigger it. I agree BUT its AOE which means the smart player that stowed his weapon in time will still get hit by FC if there is another player mindlessly spamming his skills. Now if ANET made it so that it so that FC had a much larger radius BUT only punished the player that triggered it then it would be more true to its nature and we could have the damage back.

  • daw.4923daw.4923 Member ✭✭

    at this point,remove damage,remove daze,make it 5 sec cd. you again destroyed warrior anet,it was garbage 1v1 for half year,i guess some necro standing on point spaming random skills is still owned by skill with 1 sec casting time and 180 range = better nerf that bad boy and remove shield 5,war op. pls nerf.

  • In WvW and I would be ok with this nerf if the utility in FC was viable, you rarely are affected by the daze there's just too much stability and boon uptime, most fights you only see Immune popping up even spamming Break Enchantments and before you would at least know you've done some damage. The viability of a melee CC class in WvW at the moment it bad when you have others classes that can AoE CC from range.

  • Rysdude.3824Rysdude.3824 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Can we rename it from Full Counter to “Almost Halfway to a Full Counter?”

  • but the daze is 1.5s now

  • Strages.2950Strages.2950 Member ✭✭✭

    @Henry.5713 said:
    This is the fourth nerf to Full Counter:

    1. December 11, 2018
      The damage applied by this skill in competitive modes has been reduced from 75% of PvE to 25% of PvE. Its daze duration in competitive game modes has been increased to 1.5 seconds.
    2. March 27, 2018
      Reduced damage by 14% in PvP and WvW.
    3. November 07, 2017
      Increased recharge from 8 seconds to 12 seconds in PvP and WvW only.
    4. October 17, 2017
      Fixed a bug in which this ability gained the damage bonus from Revenge Counter twice.The base damage of this ability has been reduced by 12.5% in PvP and WvW only.

    Even more if we include the Full Counter traits:

    1. November 07, 2017
      Reduced the number of conditions transferred from 5 to 3 in PvP and WvW only.

    Reminds me a bit of what happened to Berserker. Might be an indication that an expansion is around the corner to make room for something new and even more broken. On a serious note, probably one of the most nerfed skills since Steal. Pretty much what happens when you design a spec around the use of a single mechanic when half of the people just can't deal with it.

    Basically everything spellbreaker has been nerfed. Break enchantments had a 50% damage nerf, Featherfoot grace got a 10 second cooldown increase, Breaching strike got a 20% damage nerf....

    I get that the class was overtuned at one point, but this last nerf just kicked SB's teeth in.

  • I tried using mesmer runes just to see if I could extend the daze to 2 seconds and apparently doesnt work, I was not even surprised lol

  • They will probably nerf sight beyond sights next

  • lodjur.1284lodjur.1284 Member ✭✭✭

    I got hit for a 672 damage full counter in WvW today from a full zerk spellbreaker, was kinda cute. The damage seems overnerfed. The only nerf I would have liked to see to full counter (and that should have been instead of many of the damage nerfs) is to not make it trigger the damage portion (still give damage immunity) from skills like wells, symbols and similar. Before anyone says anything, no stepping into that already laid down symbol isn't incredibly clever, it's obvious. But people who keep attacking a full countering spellbreaker with single target skills deserve to eat a pretty hard hit.

    Ögonen omges av vita och svarta penseldrag som gör att de ser större ut än vad de egentligen är. Baksidan av lodjurets öron kantas av svart päls som slutar i den karaktäristiska tofsen högst upp på örat. Lodjurets svans är kortare än de flesta andra kattdjurs.

  • @lodjur.1284 said:
    I got hit for a 672 damage full counter in WvW today from a full zerk spellbreaker, was kinda cute. The damage seems overnerfed. The only nerf I would have liked to see to full counter (and that should have been instead of many of the damage nerfs) is to not make it trigger the damage portion (still give damage immunity) from skills like wells, symbols and similar. Before anyone says anything, no stepping into that already laid down symbol isn't incredibly clever, it's obvious. But people who keep attacking a full countering spellbreaker with single target skills deserve to eat a pretty hard hit.

    that is part of the point though. It was meant to punish symbol trap and attack spam. Try being more thoughtful about your symbol or trap placement. No one is claiming to be smart for punishing your lack of foresight.

  • Curennos.9307Curennos.9307 Member ✭✭✭

    Now when I see an enemy warrior heading towards mid, I don't get that small tug in my stomach anymore that I do when seeing other classes that, while the build may not be meta, is still feared to a certain extent.

    Spellbreaker feels like a declawed cat (kitten?) now.

  • lodjur.1284lodjur.1284 Member ✭✭✭

    @Cloud Windfoot Omega.7485 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:
    I got hit for a 672 damage full counter in WvW today from a full zerk spellbreaker, was kinda cute. The damage seems overnerfed. The only nerf I would have liked to see to full counter (and that should have been instead of many of the damage nerfs) is to not make it trigger the damage portion (still give damage immunity) from skills like wells, symbols and similar. Before anyone says anything, no stepping into that already laid down symbol isn't incredibly clever, it's obvious. But people who keep attacking a full countering spellbreaker with single target skills deserve to eat a pretty hard hit.

    that is part of the point though. It was meant to punish symbol trap and attack spam. Try being more thoughtful about your symbol or trap placement. No one is claiming to be smart for punishing your lack of foresight.

    Except the "counter" would be I can't use any of these skills at all as long as there's a spellbreaker on the enemy team, that's a super simple counter, yet one that adds no decision making to the game

    Ögonen omges av vita och svarta penseldrag som gör att de ser större ut än vad de egentligen är. Baksidan av lodjurets öron kantas av svart päls som slutar i den karaktäristiska tofsen högst upp på örat. Lodjurets svans är kortare än de flesta andra kattdjurs.

  • losingcontrol.1084losingcontrol.1084 Member ✭✭
    edited December 15, 2018

    Spellbreaker was really balanced in the meta with the new tetherbreaker, it wasn't the usual double passive carrying build, and it was rewarding and based on the player skill, and what they did? Nerfed both full counter and megabane and buffed that kitten brainless boonbeast even more.
    Now even a 10yo can play boonbeast and get up to plat and feel proud.

    Bu yeah let's nerf warrior because it was a really serious problem in comps yeah...

    Next time they will get rid of the damage completely, then they will get rid of the daze too.

  • Rysdude.3824Rysdude.3824 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    @Cloud Windfoot Omega.7485 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:
    I got hit for a 672 damage full counter in WvW today from a full zerk spellbreaker, was kinda cute. The damage seems overnerfed. The only nerf I would have liked to see to full counter (and that should have been instead of many of the damage nerfs) is to not make it trigger the damage portion (still give damage immunity) from skills like wells, symbols and similar. Before anyone says anything, no stepping into that already laid down symbol isn't incredibly clever, it's obvious. But people who keep attacking a full countering spellbreaker with single target skills deserve to eat a pretty hard hit.

    that is part of the point though. It was meant to punish symbol trap and attack spam. Try being more thoughtful about your symbol or trap placement. No one is claiming to be smart for punishing your lack of foresight.

    Except the "counter" would be I can't use any of these skills at all as long as there's a spellbreaker on the enemy team, that's a super simple counter, yet one that adds no decision making to the game

    So one skill would stop the use of all of yours?

  • @lodjur.1284 said:

    @Cloud Windfoot Omega.7485 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:
    I got hit for a 672 damage full counter in WvW today from a full zerk spellbreaker, was kinda cute. The damage seems overnerfed. The only nerf I would have liked to see to full counter (and that should have been instead of many of the damage nerfs) is to not make it trigger the damage portion (still give damage immunity) from skills like wells, symbols and similar. Before anyone says anything, no stepping into that already laid down symbol isn't incredibly clever, it's obvious. But people who keep attacking a full countering spellbreaker with single target skills deserve to eat a pretty hard hit.

    that is part of the point though. It was meant to punish symbol trap and attack spam. Try being more thoughtful about your symbol or trap placement. No one is claiming to be smart for punishing your lack of foresight.

    Except the "counter" would be I can't use any of these skills at all as long as there's a spellbreaker on the enemy team, that's a super simple counter, yet one that adds no decision making to the game

    why are you placing them as traps in that case, and why are you standing in range of them that they are causing you problems? You are making bad decisions.

  • @spartan.9421 said:

    @Spartacus.3192 said:
    i'll be honest and say FC hit too hard for everything ELSE the skill does. I mean come on if traited (and most builds will use those traits) it gives....

    Absorbs attack
    Dazes enemy
    Gives Protection
    Removes 1 boon per interrupted enemy
    Gives adrenaline per boon removed and does additional damage per boon removed
    Gives you a stack of attackers insight
    and then if you take revenge counter will give resistance copies condis and does extra damage
    OR magebane, 10% extra damage, might stacking, pulsing reveal and a pull.

    Thats a heck of a lot of stuff for one skill on a ~10 sec cd.

    Did they over nerf the damage?.....Agreed. Is it the end of the world? No.

    Wow! It's almost as if the skill was designed to punish players for triggering it, go figure!

    It only absorbs one attack if the skill is triggered, only dazes (used to be a .5 second daze, now is 1.5 seconds) if the hit lands, only removes boons if the hit lands, only gives adrenaline per boon if it lands IF traited, only copies three conditions (not transfer, mind you) with only 2 whopping seconds of resistance, and magebane only triggers if the hit lands.

    "If if Only only" "If it land" .... Like ... ALL attacks ?? :# :# So all skills are weak because it needs to hit the enemy to do dmg ???
    Because people spam it rashly doesn't mean all these effect are useless or low.

  • spartan.9421spartan.9421 Member ✭✭✭

    @Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:

    @spartan.9421 said:

    @Spartacus.3192 said:
    i'll be honest and say FC hit too hard for everything ELSE the skill does. I mean come on if traited (and most builds will use those traits) it gives....

    Absorbs attack
    Dazes enemy
    Gives Protection
    Removes 1 boon per interrupted enemy
    Gives adrenaline per boon removed and does additional damage per boon removed
    Gives you a stack of attackers insight
    and then if you take revenge counter will give resistance copies condis and does extra damage
    OR magebane, 10% extra damage, might stacking, pulsing reveal and a pull.

    Thats a heck of a lot of stuff for one skill on a ~10 sec cd.

    Did they over nerf the damage?.....Agreed. Is it the end of the world? No.

    Wow! It's almost as if the skill was designed to punish players for triggering it, go figure!

    It only absorbs one attack if the skill is triggered, only dazes (used to be a .5 second daze, now is 1.5 seconds) if the hit lands, only removes boons if the hit lands, only gives adrenaline per boon if it lands IF traited, only copies three conditions (not transfer, mind you) with only 2 whopping seconds of resistance, and magebane only triggers if the hit lands.

    "If if Only only" "If it land" .... Like ... ALL attacks ?? :# :# So all skills are weak because it needs to hit the enemy to do dmg ???
    Because people spam it rashly doesn't mean all these effect are useless or low.

    This skill is really easy to dodge/avoid if you aren't bad at the game. Trigger it at range, don't spam attacks, learn to stow weapon, dodge.

    Buuuut complaining is much easier than any of this.

    Whoever closes his ear to the cry of the poor will himself call out and not be answered.

  • I don't complain, on contrary I laugh on warriors who spam FC every time gated 10sec without consideration of enemy's skills and attitude. Like "OMG it's off CD, better press the key .... huh it's not effective, thank Anet".

  • @Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:
    I don't complain, on contrary I laugh on warriors who spam FC every time gated 10sec without consideration of enemy's skills and attitude. Like "OMG it's off CD, better press the key .... huh it's not effective, thank Anet".

    that was before, now its never effective unless the enemy is running no stun break or unending stability. Pretty funny and useless for a elite mechanic.

  • Atticus.7194Atticus.7194 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 16, 2018

    @Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:
    I don't complain, on contrary I laugh on warriors who spam FC every time gated 10sec without consideration of enemy's skills and attitude. Like "OMG it's off CD, better press the key .... huh it's not effective, thank Anet".

    Uh, most of the time what's what you're supposed to do to reset burst skills and get adrenal health up. Sure often you'd like to wait for the most opportune moment to use it but sometimes you just have to, to survive and get going.

    That aside

    I honestly think they should just remove damage on full counter all together, remove it from break enchantments, and just make winds of disenchantment a big aoe missile reflect sphere. The theme of spellbreaker to remove boons as been so hilariously corrupted and broken that it is non functional so stop trying to make anything overcomplicated and just make us grant boons instead of removing them and doing damage. That way we'll at least have a damage build (core war) or a full support boonbot build that might be useful in modes cause right now there is absolutetly zero reason to play spellbreaker in any competitive mode.

    I was just playing wvw and I was doing 900-1200 spellbreaks, it's an absolute joke, most players don't even consider that damage and I noticed ZERO difference with the extra daze duration, none.

  • I 've never pretended that, not even mention it, but saying FC is now useless and for argument "it needs to hit" ... no.

  • lodjur.1284lodjur.1284 Member ✭✭✭

    @Cloud Windfoot Omega.7485 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    @Cloud Windfoot Omega.7485 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:
    I got hit for a 672 damage full counter in WvW today from a full zerk spellbreaker, was kinda cute. The damage seems overnerfed. The only nerf I would have liked to see to full counter (and that should have been instead of many of the damage nerfs) is to not make it trigger the damage portion (still give damage immunity) from skills like wells, symbols and similar. Before anyone says anything, no stepping into that already laid down symbol isn't incredibly clever, it's obvious. But people who keep attacking a full countering spellbreaker with single target skills deserve to eat a pretty hard hit.

    that is part of the point though. It was meant to punish symbol trap and attack spam. Try being more thoughtful about your symbol or trap placement. No one is claiming to be smart for punishing your lack of foresight.

    Except the "counter" would be I can't use any of these skills at all as long as there's a spellbreaker on the enemy team, that's a super simple counter, yet one that adds no decision making to the game

    why are you placing them as traps in that case, and why are you standing in range of them that they are causing you problems? You are making bad decisions.

    That's exactly my point, the best decisions becomes to the decisions become

    A Spam my Symbols/Wells/Whatever and hope for the best because whatever I am playing simply doesn't remotely work w/o doing so (something like greatsword power reaper with 1+ wells would be an example, old symbolic DH tho would be another even tho that's no longer a thing really)

    B Completely ignore the fact that I even have these skills because their use is detrimental and only use them while full counter is on CD, which depending on what you play might just be never.

    This isn't even the biggest design issue with it, another problem with it is that I get punished for my allies being bad, more so than usual, even when I stow weapon and look at the spellbreaker stand there like an idiot I can get punished because my teammates decides that attacking them is a great a idea

    Ögonen omges av vita och svarta penseldrag som gör att de ser större ut än vad de egentligen är. Baksidan av lodjurets öron kantas av svart päls som slutar i den karaktäristiska tofsen högst upp på örat. Lodjurets svans är kortare än de flesta andra kattdjurs.

  • Atticus.7194Atticus.7194 Member ✭✭✭

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    @Cloud Windfoot Omega.7485 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    @Cloud Windfoot Omega.7485 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:
    I got hit for a 672 damage full counter in WvW today from a full zerk spellbreaker, was kinda cute. The damage seems overnerfed. The only nerf I would have liked to see to full counter (and that should have been instead of many of the damage nerfs) is to not make it trigger the damage portion (still give damage immunity) from skills like wells, symbols and similar. Before anyone says anything, no stepping into that already laid down symbol isn't incredibly clever, it's obvious. But people who keep attacking a full countering spellbreaker with single target skills deserve to eat a pretty hard hit.

    that is part of the point though. It was meant to punish symbol trap and attack spam. Try being more thoughtful about your symbol or trap placement. No one is claiming to be smart for punishing your lack of foresight.

    Except the "counter" would be I can't use any of these skills at all as long as there's a spellbreaker on the enemy team, that's a super simple counter, yet one that adds no decision making to the game

    why are you placing them as traps in that case, and why are you standing in range of them that they are causing you problems? You are making bad decisions.

    That's exactly my point, the best decisions becomes to the decisions become

    A Spam my Symbols/Wells/Whatever and hope for the best because whatever I am playing simply doesn't remotely work w/o doing so (something like greatsword power reaper with 1+ wells would be an example, old symbolic DH tho would be another even tho that's no longer a thing really)

    B Completely ignore the fact that I even have these skills because their use is detrimental and only use them while full counter is on CD, which depending on what you play might just be never.

    This isn't even the biggest design issue with it, another problem with it is that I get punished for my allies being bad, more so than usual, even when I stow weapon and look at the spellbreaker stand there like an idiot I can get punished because my teammates decides that attacking them is a great a idea

    So you think the solution to that is to geld the ability all together and effectively remove all damage from it? Well I'm glad it's not an issue for you fighting a spellbreaker but it is an issue for all the people that want to play one.

  • @lodjur.1284 said:

    @Cloud Windfoot Omega.7485 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    @Cloud Windfoot Omega.7485 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:
    I got hit for a 672 damage full counter in WvW today from a full zerk spellbreaker, was kinda cute. The damage seems overnerfed. The only nerf I would have liked to see to full counter (and that should have been instead of many of the damage nerfs) is to not make it trigger the damage portion (still give damage immunity) from skills like wells, symbols and similar. Before anyone says anything, no stepping into that already laid down symbol isn't incredibly clever, it's obvious. But people who keep attacking a full countering spellbreaker with single target skills deserve to eat a pretty hard hit.

    that is part of the point though. It was meant to punish symbol trap and attack spam. Try being more thoughtful about your symbol or trap placement. No one is claiming to be smart for punishing your lack of foresight.

    Except the "counter" would be I can't use any of these skills at all as long as there's a spellbreaker on the enemy team, that's a super simple counter, yet one that adds no decision making to the game

    why are you placing them as traps in that case, and why are you standing in range of them that they are causing you problems? You are making bad decisions.

    That's exactly my point, the best decisions becomes to the decisions become

    A Spam my Symbols/Wells/Whatever and hope for the best because whatever I am playing simply doesn't remotely work w/o doing so (something like greatsword power reaper with 1+ wells would be an example, old symbolic DH tho would be another even tho that's no longer a thing really)

    B Completely ignore the fact that I even have these skills because their use is detrimental and only use them while full counter is on CD, which depending on what you play might just be never.

    This isn't even the biggest design issue with it, another problem with it is that I get punished for my allies being bad, more so than usual, even when I stow weapon and look at the spellbreaker stand there like an idiot I can get punished because my teammates decides that attacking them is a great a idea

    you cant blame the skill for bad teammates.

  • lodjur.1284lodjur.1284 Member ✭✭✭

    @Cloud Windfoot Omega.7485 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    @Cloud Windfoot Omega.7485 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    @Cloud Windfoot Omega.7485 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:
    I got hit for a 672 damage full counter in WvW today from a full zerk spellbreaker, was kinda cute. The damage seems overnerfed. The only nerf I would have liked to see to full counter (and that should have been instead of many of the damage nerfs) is to not make it trigger the damage portion (still give damage immunity) from skills like wells, symbols and similar. Before anyone says anything, no stepping into that already laid down symbol isn't incredibly clever, it's obvious. But people who keep attacking a full countering spellbreaker with single target skills deserve to eat a pretty hard hit.

    that is part of the point though. It was meant to punish symbol trap and attack spam. Try being more thoughtful about your symbol or trap placement. No one is claiming to be smart for punishing your lack of foresight.

    Except the "counter" would be I can't use any of these skills at all as long as there's a spellbreaker on the enemy team, that's a super simple counter, yet one that adds no decision making to the game

    why are you placing them as traps in that case, and why are you standing in range of them that they are causing you problems? You are making bad decisions.

    That's exactly my point, the best decisions becomes to the decisions become

    A Spam my Symbols/Wells/Whatever and hope for the best because whatever I am playing simply doesn't remotely work w/o doing so (something like greatsword power reaper with 1+ wells would be an example, old symbolic DH tho would be another even tho that's no longer a thing really)

    B Completely ignore the fact that I even have these skills because their use is detrimental and only use them while full counter is on CD, which depending on what you play might just be never.

    This isn't even the biggest design issue with it, another problem with it is that I get punished for my allies being bad, more so than usual, even when I stow weapon and look at the spellbreaker stand there like an idiot I can get punished because my teammates decides that attacking them is a great a idea

    you cant blame the skill for bad teammates.

    Yet that's pretty poor design, at least if I can't pick my teammates... Afaik there's no other skill that actively punishes you for having someone bad near you (at least not in a way that matters).

    @Atticus.7194 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    @Cloud Windfoot Omega.7485 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    @Cloud Windfoot Omega.7485 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:
    I got hit for a 672 damage full counter in WvW today from a full zerk spellbreaker, was kinda cute. The damage seems overnerfed. The only nerf I would have liked to see to full counter (and that should have been instead of many of the damage nerfs) is to not make it trigger the damage portion (still give damage immunity) from skills like wells, symbols and similar. Before anyone says anything, no stepping into that already laid down symbol isn't incredibly clever, it's obvious. But people who keep attacking a full countering spellbreaker with single target skills deserve to eat a pretty hard hit.

    that is part of the point though. It was meant to punish symbol trap and attack spam. Try being more thoughtful about your symbol or trap placement. No one is claiming to be smart for punishing your lack of foresight.

    Except the "counter" would be I can't use any of these skills at all as long as there's a spellbreaker on the enemy team, that's a super simple counter, yet one that adds no decision making to the game

    why are you placing them as traps in that case, and why are you standing in range of them that they are causing you problems? You are making bad decisions.

    That's exactly my point, the best decisions becomes to the decisions become

    A Spam my Symbols/Wells/Whatever and hope for the best because whatever I am playing simply doesn't remotely work w/o doing so (something like greatsword power reaper with 1+ wells would be an example, old symbolic DH tho would be another even tho that's no longer a thing really)

    B Completely ignore the fact that I even have these skills because their use is detrimental and only use them while full counter is on CD, which depending on what you play might just be never.

    This isn't even the biggest design issue with it, another problem with it is that I get punished for my allies being bad, more so than usual, even when I stow weapon and look at the spellbreaker stand there like an idiot I can get punished because my teammates decides that attacking them is a great a idea

    So you think the solution to that is to geld the ability all together and effectively remove all damage from it? Well I'm glad it's not an issue for you fighting a spellbreaker but it is an issue for all the people that want to play one.

    I think the skill needs to be buffed from the current state which I very clearly stated, the dmg is a joke, making it only trigger from single target skills would allow them to imo raise it to 100% of PvE damage instead of 25%. It should still give damage immunity vs AoE

    Ögonen omges av vita och svarta penseldrag som gör att de ser större ut än vad de egentligen är. Baksidan av lodjurets öron kantas av svart päls som slutar i den karaktäristiska tofsen högst upp på örat. Lodjurets svans är kortare än de flesta andra kattdjurs.

  • Cloud Windfoot Omega.7485Cloud Windfoot Omega.7485 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 16, 2018

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    @Cloud Windfoot Omega.7485 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    @Cloud Windfoot Omega.7485 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    @Cloud Windfoot Omega.7485 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:
    I got hit for a 672 damage full counter in WvW today from a full zerk spellbreaker, was kinda cute. The damage seems overnerfed. The only nerf I would have liked to see to full counter (and that should have been instead of many of the damage nerfs) is to not make it trigger the damage portion (still give damage immunity) from skills like wells, symbols and similar. Before anyone says anything, no stepping into that already laid down symbol isn't incredibly clever, it's obvious. But people who keep attacking a full countering spellbreaker with single target skills deserve to eat a pretty hard hit.

    that is part of the point though. It was meant to punish symbol trap and attack spam. Try being more thoughtful about your symbol or trap placement. No one is claiming to be smart for punishing your lack of foresight.

    Except the "counter" would be I can't use any of these skills at all as long as there's a spellbreaker on the enemy team, that's a super simple counter, yet one that adds no decision making to the game

    why are you placing them as traps in that case, and why are you standing in range of them that they are causing you problems? You are making bad decisions.

    That's exactly my point, the best decisions becomes to the decisions become

    A Spam my Symbols/Wells/Whatever and hope for the best because whatever I am playing simply doesn't remotely work w/o doing so (something like greatsword power reaper with 1+ wells would be an example, old symbolic DH tho would be another even tho that's no longer a thing really)

    B Completely ignore the fact that I even have these skills because their use is detrimental and only use them while full counter is on CD, which depending on what you play might just be never.

    This isn't even the biggest design issue with it, another problem with it is that I get punished for my allies being bad, more so than usual, even when I stow weapon and look at the spellbreaker stand there like an idiot I can get punished because my teammates decides that attacking them is a great a idea

    you cant blame the skill for bad teammates.

    Yet that's pretty poor design, at least if I can't pick my teammates... Afaik there's no other skill that actively punishes you for having someone bad near you (at least not in a way that matters).

    @Atticus.7194 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    @Cloud Windfoot Omega.7485 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    @Cloud Windfoot Omega.7485 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:
    I got hit for a 672 damage full counter in WvW today from a full zerk spellbreaker, was kinda cute. The damage seems overnerfed. The only nerf I would have liked to see to full counter (and that should have been instead of many of the damage nerfs) is to not make it trigger the damage portion (still give damage immunity) from skills like wells, symbols and similar. Before anyone says anything, no stepping into that already laid down symbol isn't incredibly clever, it's obvious. But people who keep attacking a full countering spellbreaker with single target skills deserve to eat a pretty hard hit.

    that is part of the point though. It was meant to punish symbol trap and attack spam. Try being more thoughtful about your symbol or trap placement. No one is claiming to be smart for punishing your lack of foresight.

    Except the "counter" would be I can't use any of these skills at all as long as there's a spellbreaker on the enemy team, that's a super simple counter, yet one that adds no decision making to the game

    why are you placing them as traps in that case, and why are you standing in range of them that they are causing you problems? You are making bad decisions.

    That's exactly my point, the best decisions becomes to the decisions become

    A Spam my Symbols/Wells/Whatever and hope for the best because whatever I am playing simply doesn't remotely work w/o doing so (something like greatsword power reaper with 1+ wells would be an example, old symbolic DH tho would be another even tho that's no longer a thing really)

    B Completely ignore the fact that I even have these skills because their use is detrimental and only use them while full counter is on CD, which depending on what you play might just be never.

    This isn't even the biggest design issue with it, another problem with it is that I get punished for my allies being bad, more so than usual, even when I stow weapon and look at the spellbreaker stand there like an idiot I can get punished because my teammates decides that attacking them is a great a idea

    So you think the solution to that is to geld the ability all together and effectively remove all damage from it? Well I'm glad it's not an issue for you fighting a spellbreaker but it is an issue for all the people that want to play one.

    I think the skill needs to be buffed from the current state which I very clearly stated, the dmg is a joke, making it only trigger from single target skills would allow them to imo raise it to 100% of PvE damage instead of 25%. It should still give damage immunity vs AoE

    The design is perfectly fine. Your terrible teammate is not the only one punishing you, you yourself are the root cause of being punished in the end. You who placed yourself in range while working with a teammate who you do not trust to deal with the situation well, you who are not spatially aware enough to mitigate the danger with good placement and dodges.
    Is the game badly designed because having bad teammates means you lose a point? Because you lose a battle? When they make a obvious winning team fight into a loss due to their own incompetence?

    Its time to stop misplacing the blame from a skill working as intended and instead onto the person who caused the skill to catch your unprepared butt.

  • Atticus.7194Atticus.7194 Member ✭✭✭

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    So you think the solution to that is to geld the ability all together and effectively remove all damage from it? Well I'm glad it's not an issue for you fighting a spellbreaker but it is an issue for all the people that want to play one.

    I think the skill needs to be buffed from the current state which I very clearly stated, the dmg is a joke, making it only trigger from single target skills would allow them to imo raise it to 100% of PvE damage instead of 25%. It should still give damage immunity vs AoE

    My mistake, this would honestly be an elegant solution, I'd be fine with the damage decreasing and converting into more aoe CC the most players it effects that way it always remains viable. Something like 3+ players means instead of damage aoe daze + 2 condi's removed + 2 buffs given or something.

    Single player = more damage encouraging personal accountability and counterplay
    Multiple players = more CC and aoe support encouraging team support and integration

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