Raiding is on the verge of destroying huge segments of the GW2 community, if it hasn't already - Page 5 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Raiding is on the verge of destroying huge segments of the GW2 community, if it hasn't already

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  • icy.9250icy.9250 Member ✭✭
    edited December 10, 2018

    skimming through what was said, maddoctor is on to something -- indeed I'd appreciate a raid over a new story episode any day. A new raid wouldn't have to be released as a giant wing, in my opinion, either. Would rather it be added piecemeal than with a bigger delay.

    Raids are supposed to be hard and there should be at least some level of optimization going on as part of the process for a successful completion. If 9 people have practiced their classes at the golem and fractals or so and have at the least studied guides on new boss, and the 10th just casually strolls in with a completely off build, of course there will be tension. That's really the crux of it.

    Sure, there are casual groups out there. There are also plenty of meme runs that I have voluntarily joined -- I'm talking like Become the Raven (+2000 toughness) and running away with the boss, necros and mesmers purposely Spectral Grasp or Focus4 pulling Vale Guardian seekers into the group every few seconds, Sabetha kites and cannons being done by healers inside of asura D-Golems, or a holosmith/spellbreaker/chrono dropping Big Ol' Bomb/Winds of Disenchantment/Time Warp on the group before eating mushrooms as slublings. (For the record, these were all experienced people and the fights were all basically one-shots, though I wouldn't recommend Corrosive Poison Cloud at the time of Feedback on Matthias, as that went too far ;D ).

    The average ad wants to get it done and just basically wants everyone to pull their weight. On NA there are also just not that many ads aside from start of the week and perhaps weekends. It may be tricky for someone new to get into the scene, for sure, but I wouldn't associate the words "casual" with "raiding" as it's more often than not the wrong mindset.

  • Talindra.4958Talindra.4958 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 11, 2018

    Each content should be special design to cater for that specific type of players, otherwise there's no challenge for that players. Those who are casual you get your content update too...Just ignore raids and reward if you dislike this type of content.. don't be greedy.
    They made PvP so easily accessible to all type of players to farm 🤔 😕 personally I think it isn't a good idea.. good for all but those who likes a bit of challenge and like a bit more serious gaming mode in that context, they can not really enjoy that part of the game as much as it can offer.

    As for raid, it is one part of game that players needs to take the game a bit more serious, where coordination and interaction between players is important to get the raid boss down. We are somewhat in the 3rd year of raid. It's not new anymore. If you want to be part of it, you have to try it.. listen to advise that many people give. Raid community isn't as what you think, there are many good and nice people around willing to help. Trust me you will enjoy it once you get into it. All you need is good attitude and positive mind. You need to accept a change to playstyle too. Raid isn't hard, it just needs coordination and people to listen.. let go whatever stop you from trying and have a go and try it. When I say try, meaning there is no other excuses, you have to try to do everything you can so you sign up with a training guild.. Willing to read and learn boss mechanic and work with others.

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  • @Celsith.2753 said:
    I'm sorry but you seem to have not understood at all about training runs. You can join one, try it out and never go again. The guild I eventually joined do multiple runs each week for new raiders or people that want to try it. Often people join the guild after doing runs with them, because they enjoyed how it was run. There's no requirement to already be in a guild to join an advertised training run. As far as getting the kill, raids aren't as difficult as many people think and that first try saw my first kills.

    This separation between open world players and raiders is entirely a matter of perception and simply does not exist. From deciding I wanted to do it, to being in a run with a friendly, super helpful team, well it was the same day. I was not made to feel any way uncomfortable. I was not made to feel a burden, or looked down upon. I strongly suggest all the people complaining about this supposed separation simply answer an advert for a training run.

    I did, but as explained does the training run suggestion only help already very dedicated players. For average joe such a suggestion is pointless.
    It's not the normal way approach to use third party sites before entering some piece of content, especially for more casual players. This only works for dedicated players.
    Your average "legolas" ranger from open world in fullsoldier is usually not among those players - or very underrepresented. It would be really interesting to see if there is a difference in player skill/equipment/builds/"preparation" if group A advertises on discord/forums and group B searches "anyone welcome" in LA map chat. I'd expect to get much worse results in mapchat. More casual players I know don't use third party sites. A player who is dedicated, who really wants to get into raids might look for such help to get into raids. The majority will search for a PUG, get in, wipe a few times, give up and never touch the content again. So that boat is already missed since 2015. That's how people get into new content. People were interested in raids, tried them, failed, gave up, end of story.
    It's not normal to search for builds and bossguides first. Normally, see for example story content, you simply get into the content without any preparation

    I can hop into WvW with an open world character and follow a zerg. If I like it it can do some research, improve my build etc. If I don't I can return to skyrim or whatever. For raids this does not work. You need to prepare. Very simplified is that the point where the community splits. A good game would prepare players. "You've finished story? Great, now you are ready to succeed in raids". You should've learned by then to bring a proper build, to use CC and so on.

    You seem to be a more dedicated player. Obviously you use third party sites. Maybe you were also joing a group after you read some guides, maybe you were even running a metabuild and didn't need to organise new equipment. Maybe you are able to run more than one class. So I'd say you can't really compare your experience with other players. Let say a fireele camping scepter autoattack is a bit difficult to teach raiding to. But that's the kind of players you'll find in open world. A lot. Would be interesting to see dps meter stats of open world zergs. Or as example: my guild was interested in raids. But when you are already struggling with T2 fractals that's not going to work. I told my guildmates that if they want to get into raids that they need to bring proper builds, be prepared to fail for hours at the same boss, linked some guides - and that's where the debate ended. In GW1 you had like ~2 experienced players which did the work. "use this build" copy'n paste; use conservative, slow but safe tactics eplained in voicechat, succeed, done. In GW2 after the 10th fail at the same boss I'd expect rage and or resignation. And for sure it would then be very difficult to form a team for a second try on another day.
    From my perspective: I'm mostly interested in teamcontent, idgaf about singleplayer content as open world, there are much better singleplayer games available. I'm not hardcore enough for raids/willing to jump through so many loops. I'm fine with fractals, also fractals CMs "learning by doing" concept. But for raids I'm by far too casual. So obviously I'm not the target audience of GW2. And never was, I'm more a GW1 player - casual/coregamer teamcontent. There is a reason why all those small more social guilds disappeared.

  • Jagblade.4627Jagblade.4627 Member ✭✭
    edited December 10, 2018

    From what I've seen, this supposed split is between people who just want to play the game and not necessarily be the best but are barred from content unless they run a "meta" build and anything else is regarded as worthless and a detriment. This isn't entirely a community issue as much as it is a mechanical issue. I think it could be solved if raids have categories of difficult like Fractals do. This way people with non-meta builds and punier gear can still partake in the raid content while still leaving the more experienced and competitive crowd with something far more challenging. GW2 appeared to be more of a casual MMO years ago but has been adding more and more "hardcore content." This in and of itself is not a bad thing but the casual and hardcore crowds will never be able to get along without avenues for both to enjoy content without taking away from the other.

  • @Jagblade.4627 said:
    From what I've seen, this supposed split is between people who just want to play the game and not necessarily be the best but are barred from content unless they run a "meta" build and anything else is regarded as worthless and a detriment. This isn't entirely a community issue as much as it is a mechanical issue. I think it could be solved if raids have categories of difficult like Fractals do. This way people with non-meta builds and punier gear can still partake in the raid content while still leaving the more experienced and competitive crowd with something far more challenging. GW2 appeared to be more of a casual MMO years ago but has been adding more and more "hardcore content." This in and of itself is not a bad thing but the casual and hardcore crowds will never be able to get along without avenues for both to enjoy content without taking away from the other.

    Noone is barred from raids for not running meta builds. Theres no gear check at the door that kicks you out if you dont have certain stats. You and your friends/guild can enter with whatever build you like. However if you want to pug raids, then you are going to have a hard time finding 9 other random players who want to try the content with you when you build is totally unsuited to that content. If you run an off meta build that actually does its job and works though, you will have no problem.

  • @Emberstone.2904 said:

    @Fallesafe.5932 said:

    @qwerty.8943 said:
    So what is a 'semi-casual', "competent-but-not-uber DPS", though "wants-to-learn" supposed to do?

    Don't worry. The next Guild Wars will come out on mobile, and have such a bad/limited interface that everybody can be an elite raider by the end of a week! But for now... why don't you join the raid-training discord, and group up with other people in the same boat?

    Where can I find this raid-training Discord? I've been wanting to try them out now that my Weaver is geared.

    Not sure if you’ve been helped, but here the link to RiT (Raiders in Training) https://discord.gg/SvsVzVQ ! Hope to see you in the raid scene soon!

  • I was pretty much permanently burned out from raids being a Mythic tank in WoW for like 3 expansions, haven't touched raids unless it's matchmade like LFR since Legion.

    I just buy runs in GW2 to get stuff that I want or need, and won't bother until there's some LFR option here; having to schedule my life around raiding, and the fact that I know I'm gonna get tired or burned out from raiding a few months down the line and wanna play something else means I just don't want to bother, and from experience I know that pugging is an insane waste of time compared to guild runs, unless the content is outdated or outgeared (which never happens in GW2, hence why pugging is a hassle).

    tldr; I don't raid because I don't wanna want to work a second job, I wanna chill out when I play, and don't really mind cause I can just buy runs since I have more money than time, until there's a matchmade option (unless rewards suck in matchmaking, in which case I'll just keep buying runs).

  • XYLO.7031XYLO.7031 Member ✭✭✭

    Almost all guilds that advertise in chat to join their guild say "RAID" in their ad at some point. I'm not in those guilds because of the drama for raid spots and all that. They should change it to RACE. I can just buy pretty things from Anet to fund the game (ty anet) and drift around maps for fun. I don't even have to place in the top three to get rewards, I only have to complete the race in the generous amount of time given (ty anet). Anything that becomes 'work' after the end of my workday is a 'no' since I need to go into a chill and rest mode. I love my career, but it gets tiring; I'm only human. I want to do something fun. Remember, this game didn't always have raiding. It should have stayed that way to be unique. I agree with OP but for different reasons. Raiding introduced a culture that was not in line with the original, pre-expansion game. I don't agree with it but it's here. Perhaps if they made raids more forgiving in requirements more people would actually want to do it. There are people that don't agree with beetle racing but it's here.

    All you have to do are the things that you want to do. It's a game.

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  • Eventually raids will have to get story mode, normal mode, and also then repeatable CMs for each boss that reset every 1-3 months.

    It'll happen eventually. You'll see. There's no other way to get people to get into raids.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Jagblade.4627 said:
    From what I've seen, this supposed split is between people who just want to play the game and not necessarily be the best but are barred from content unless they run a "meta" build and anything else is regarded as worthless and a detriment. This isn't entirely a community issue as much as it is a mechanical issue.

    It's both. It's caused by mechanics, but also by differences in mindset (some of which Jockum nicely summed up in his post above).

    I think it could be solved if raids have categories of difficult like Fractals do.

    It could be lessened, but not solved. The main mechanical issue comes from the massive gap between floor and ceiling. You can have an" average OW player" trying their best, and still doing 10x less damage than the skilled hardcore in their meta build. You could have the same "average OW player" trying their best while equipped in the very same meta gear and build as the previously mentioned hardcore player and still doing 5x less damage. That's massive, and can't really be "solved" by anything less than a complete combat engine overhaul. Which just isn't going to happen.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Jockum.1385Jockum.1385 Member ✭✭
    edited December 11, 2018

    @zombyturtle.5980 said:

    Well tbh if people arent willing to change their build to meet their team needs then raids just arent for them. And thats fine.

    It isn't really about being willing or not. That's not the main problem. Actually tells a lot that you think so. Time and gold investment is a much bigger problem. I never had a problem with telling a warrior to run banners in GW2. Most warriors are willing to switch their build.
    I never had a problem in GW1 to tell another player to switch some skills., too.

    Asking for a new set of equipment is a bit much to ask for. For a more casual player this is expensive, he need to farm gold (if he is going full exo), buy runes etc. Often these players spend little time, like 1 hour per week ingame. Earning the gold for a raid try might take him weeks. Just to figure out after half an hour that he does not like raids? Without guaranteed successs or at least a good chance to succeed?

    "Raids aren't for them" is not fine. It would, if Anet would release maybe 10-20 dungeons with each expansion. They don't. With so little content released it means: there is no content for casual- or coregamer teams.

  • @Jockum.1385 said:

    @zombyturtle.5980 said:

    Well tbh if people arent willing to change their build to meet their team needs then raids just arent for them. And thats fine.

    It isn't really about being willing or not. That's not the main problem. Actually tells a lot that you think so. Time and gold investment is a much bigger problem. I never had a problem with telling a warrior to run banners in GW2. Most warriors are willing to switch their build.
    I never had a problem in GW1 to tell another player to switch some skills., too.

    Asking for a new set of equipment is a bit much to ask for. For a more casual player this is expensive, he need to farm gold (if he is going full exo), buy runes etc. Often these players spend little time, like 1 hour per week ingame. Earning the gold for a raid try might take him weeks. Just to figure out after half an hour that he does not like raids? Without guaranteed successs or at least a good chance to succeed?

    "Raids aren't for them" is not fine. It would, if Anet would release maybe 10-20 dungeons with each expansion. They don't. With so little content released it means: there is no content for casual- or coregamer teams.

    Solution is make raids easier for all make gear mean less

  • @Laila Lightness.8742 said:

    @Jockum.1385 said:

    @zombyturtle.5980 said:

    Well tbh if people arent willing to change their build to meet their team needs then raids just arent for them. And thats fine.

    It isn't really about being willing or not. That's not the main problem. Actually tells a lot that you think so. Time and gold investment is a much bigger problem. I never had a problem with telling a warrior to run banners in GW2. Most warriors are willing to switch their build.
    I never had a problem in GW1 to tell another player to switch some skills., too.

    Asking for a new set of equipment is a bit much to ask for. For a more casual player this is expensive, he need to farm gold (if he is going full exo), buy runes etc. Often these players spend little time, like 1 hour per week ingame. Earning the gold for a raid try might take him weeks. Just to figure out after half an hour that he does not like raids? Without guaranteed successs or at least a good chance to succeed?

    "Raids aren't for them" is not fine. It would, if Anet would release maybe 10-20 dungeons with each expansion. They don't. With so little content released it means: there is no content for casual- or coregamer teams.

    Solution is make raids easier for all make gear mean less

    I don't think it's quite that easy. Make raids easier across the board and you undo all of the work the more competitive players have put into it. Raids should have a version that exists as they are now, something difficult for players to enjoy who put in the effort. But there should also exist an easier version of all the raids for casual players to participate in without having to worry about limiting themselves to a meta build or full ascended gear. Having just one or the other isn't a good solution imo.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @zombyturtle.5980 said:
    ' there is no content for casual- or coregamer teams.' - this is honestly the part of your argument that i find totally ludicrous. Almost ALL content in gw2 is created for casuals. In fact the only content that is NOT for casual teams are raids and ranked pvp. T1 fractals alone have more variety of instanced content than raids have.

    You missed the word "teams". The content you speak of is for single player and/or zergs. There's no real new content for casual single player groups. One fulfilling the same role dungeons once fulfilled, before they became old and stale.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • zombyturtle.5980zombyturtle.5980 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 12, 2018

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @zombyturtle.5980 said:
    ' there is no content for casual- or coregamer teams.' - this is honestly the part of your argument that i find totally ludicrous. Almost ALL content in gw2 is created for casuals. In fact the only content that is NOT for casual teams are raids and ranked pvp. T1 fractals alone have more variety of instanced content than raids have.

    You missed the word "teams". The content you speak of is for single player and/or zergs. There's no real new content for casual single player groups. One fulfilling the same role dungeons once fulfilled, before they became old and stale.

    We get 2-3 fractals a year. How is that not for teams?

    And they also just released a casual raid for wintersday.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 12, 2018

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @zombyturtle.5980 said:
    ' there is no content for casual- or coregamer teams.' - this is honestly the part of your argument that i find totally ludicrous. Almost ALL content in gw2 is created for casuals. In fact the only content that is NOT for casual teams are raids and ranked pvp. T1 fractals alone have more variety of instanced content than raids have.

    You missed the word "teams". The content you speak of is for single player and/or zergs. There's no real new content for casual single player groups. One fulfilling the same role dungeons once fulfilled, before they became old and stale.

    I have to agree somewhat with you Astralporing. I do have to make an adjustment:

    The available forced group content for casual players is limited. By its very nature group content requires more organization and commitment.

    The question is, of how much value is group content when it has to fulfill following requirements:

    • requires a group
    • is easy enough to be considered casual
    • is rewarding enough to be of interest
    • is not over rewarding to unbalance other content

    Those are some times almost contrary requirements. If the content is easy enough, it will not require a group (as most group content now gets already soloed with even raid bosses getting duo-ed). Dungeons sort of hit the spot after years of power-creep and low level fractals too. I don't see huge chunks of the player base flocking to those instances though.

    EDIT:
    Wanted to write up some ideas, but might as well bring this in here since the thread is pretty new:

    Was thinking of Arenanet maybe creating some kind of scale-able farm zone (similar to scaled WoW raids). Which adapts to size (or is fixed to 1, 3 or 5 potentially 10 players). Then scale rewards accordingly. Basically something people can go to when they just want to hang out and farm away as a group without the hassle of doing fractals or dungeons. Give a bit more structured roles in the zone, aka 1 tank and 1 dedicated healer for events and such (in case of 3 people: 1 tank, 1 heal, 1 dps). I think this would be a great opportunity for people to socialize or just farm away not as solo players.

    The downside to this: reverting to the classic trinity meta obviously (which many players have an easier time relating to).

    The upside: non open world, dungeon or fractal related content where you can actually do something as a group.

    Think Silverwastes or World Bosses, but in a designated zone you run around (probably in circles as always once perfect farm routs are found) but as a group and not solo.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @zombyturtle.5980 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @zombyturtle.5980 said:
    ' there is no content for casual- or coregamer teams.' - this is honestly the part of your argument that i find totally ludicrous. Almost ALL content in gw2 is created for casuals. In fact the only content that is NOT for casual teams are raids and ranked pvp. T1 fractals alone have more variety of instanced content than raids have.

    You missed the word "teams". The content you speak of is for single player and/or zergs. There's no real new content for casual single player groups. One fulfilling the same role dungeons once fulfilled, before they became old and stale.

    We get 2-3 fractals a year. How is that not for teams?

    Suure, Shattered Observatory was sooo much casual content [/sarcasm]

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Those are some times almost contrary requirements. If the content is easy enough, it will not require a group (as most group content now gets already soloed with even raid bosses getting duo-ed). Dungeons sort of hit the spot after years of power-creep and low level fractals too. I don't see huge chunks of the player base flocking to those instances though.

    Because they are an old content. And as for new fractals, only one (deepstone) can really be considered casual.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @zombyturtle.5980 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @zombyturtle.5980 said:
    ' there is no content for casual- or coregamer teams.' - this is honestly the part of your argument that i find totally ludicrous. Almost ALL content in gw2 is created for casuals. In fact the only content that is NOT for casual teams are raids and ranked pvp. T1 fractals alone have more variety of instanced content than raids have.

    You missed the word "teams". The content you speak of is for single player and/or zergs. There's no real new content for casual single player groups. One fulfilling the same role dungeons once fulfilled, before they became old and stale.

    We get 2-3 fractals a year. How is that not for teams?

    Suure, Shattered Observatory was sooo much casual content [/sarcasm]

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Those are some times almost contrary requirements. If the content is easy enough, it will not require a group (as most group content now gets already soloed with even raid bosses getting duo-ed). Dungeons sort of hit the spot after years of power-creep and low level fractals too. I don't see huge chunks of the player base flocking to those instances though.

    Because they are an old content. And as for new fractals, only one (deepstone) can really be considered casual.

    True, not sure that would change the amount of people entering the content.

    Hence my idea of a new type of more casual group content. Fractals just don't have the appeal to many players and open world is a very solo heavy experience. Maybe putting both together could make a nice synergy.

  • yann.1946yann.1946 Member ✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @zombyturtle.5980 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @zombyturtle.5980 said:
    ' there is no content for casual- or coregamer teams.' - this is honestly the part of your argument that i find totally ludicrous. Almost ALL content in gw2 is created for casuals. In fact the only content that is NOT for casual teams are raids and ranked pvp. T1 fractals alone have more variety of instanced content than raids have.

    You missed the word "teams". The content you speak of is for single player and/or zergs. There's no real new content for casual single player groups. One fulfilling the same role dungeons once fulfilled, before they became old and stale.

    We get 2-3 fractals a year. How is that not for teams?

    Suure, Shattered Observatory was sooo much casual content [/sarcasm]

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Those are some times almost contrary requirements. If the content is easy enough, it will not require a group (as most group content now gets already soloed with even raid bosses getting duo-ed). Dungeons sort of hit the spot after years of power-creep and low level fractals too. I don't see huge chunks of the player base flocking to those instances though.

    Because they are an old content. And as for new fractals, only one (deepstone) can really be considered casual.

    Isn't that what the t1 should accomplish?

    Or doesn't the existence of t1 change anything?

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 12, 2018

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Suure, Shattered Observatory was sooo much casual content [/sarcasm]

    How on earth is lvl 25 SO not casual? You don't even need to execute the mechanics in glass cannon gear. Skorvald's hits - laughable, Virastraa marble - can be ignored completely, the explosion damage only tickles a bit, Arkk orbs can be failed, again: explosion damage is negligible. A must to get into the dome? Nope, not at all.

  • @zombyturtle.5980 said:
    1hr in silverwastes is around 30g... a full set of berserker gear is 20g, including trinkets. Or they could just do dailies and it would take 5 days. I really cant believe gold of all things would be the main issue when its so so easy to come by. Time I can understand but again, if they only play 1 hr per week how do you expect to get a full squad all online at the same time to raid?

    More casual players are usually not using efficient ways to farm gold. 5 dailies is still a lot for casuals. With maybe one day per week playing - usually not farming gold - it might take a few weeks to earn 20 gold. A set of scholar runes is btw. already 52 gold, your numbers seem wrong. There are budget variants, sure. But casuals are usually not very good players and on top an equipment handicap? Bad idea.
    All of this is an upfront investment. There is no guaranteed success and a more casual player might want to kill the boss once, not farm it weekly.

    I can set up a 10 people team, that's no problem. Often there are either guildforums, a "guild activities day" per week or phonenumbers are known. It's "on 15.1.2019 were are going to do raid X at 20.00". If one or two players are missing someone brings a friend as replacement. Or you reschulde for 30.3.2019 or so.

    ' there is no content for casual- or coregamer teams.' - this is honestly the part of your argument that i find totally ludicrous. Almost ALL content in gw2 is created for casuals. In fact the only content that is NOT for casual teams are raids and ranked pvp. T1 fractals alone have more variety of instanced content than raids have.

    I'm refering to team content which is lacking, not casual content in general. Same as there is lots of challenging content, as PVP seasons or WvW or PVE content as triple trouble or some achievements. But ofc is this challenging content not able to replace raids, it caters to a different kind of players. Guilds/teams are seriously lacking content in GW2. 1-2 fractals only are by far not enough. I doubt that many raid players would be happy if there would be no raids and they'd be stuck with fractals only since HoT. That's the situation more casual groups are in. They also don't enjoy repeating content hundreds of times. So even with 5 repetitions that's content for 10 weeks. Then leave the game for 10 months, waiting for new content?

    Fractals are problematic bc reward structure and design (~15min content) is the same. New fractals cater imho mostly to active fractal players, but for people which feel done with fractals? Do a new fractal maybe once and that's it. Imho is a new concept needed with new unique rewards and so on. Farming tokens for bigger bags, achievements or whatever.
    btw. easier teamcontent also helps to reduce the gap to raids. People start to improve their equip for dungeons and fractals. They learn how to play. It just takes time and if they run out of content before they are "raid ready" they'll move into open world and forget all progress they made.

    Lacking group/guildcontent is btw. a problem which you can find differently worded a lot, as recent example: https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/a5mjwx/okay_one_more_im_sorry/
    "guildmissions". People got a guild, but nothing to do together. Casual guilds advertised for a long time with "guildmissions, dungeons, fractals". Teamcontent is very important, it helps to form a community. These people are not looking for a challange, they are looking for something to do together. That's btw not a new problem. An elderly couple of my alliance complained in 2012 shortly after release. They left for Teso afaik. Married, wanted to play something together. In GW1 we did successfully "raid" together, they posted afterwards pictures of them and their "preparations" (coffee, mozartkugeln and cake). In GW2 I wouldn't even dare to bring them into most dungeons.

  • zombyturtle.5980zombyturtle.5980 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 14, 2018

    @Jockum.1385 said:

    @zombyturtle.5980 said:
    1hr in silverwastes is around 30g... a full set of berserker gear is 20g, including trinkets. Or they could just do dailies and it would take 5 days. I really cant believe gold of all things would be the main issue when its so so easy to come by. Time I can understand but again, if they only play 1 hr per week how do you expect to get a full squad all online at the same time to raid?

    More casual players are usually not using efficient ways to farm gold. 5 dailies is still a lot for casuals. With maybe one day per week playing - usually not farming gold - it might take a few weeks to earn 20 gold. A set of scholar runes is btw. already 52 gold, your numbers seem wrong. There are budget variants, sure. But casuals are usually not very good players and on top an equipment handicap? Bad idea.
    All of this is an upfront investment. There is no guaranteed success and a more casual player might want to kill the boss once, not farm it weekly.

    I can set up a 10 people team, that's no problem. Often there are either guildforums, a "guild activities day" per week or phonenumbers are known. It's "on 15.1.2019 were are going to do raid X at 20.00". If one or two players are missing someone brings a friend as replacement. Or you reschulde for 30.3.2019 or so.

    ' there is no content for casual- or coregamer teams.' - this is honestly the part of your argument that i find totally ludicrous. Almost ALL content in gw2 is created for casuals. In fact the only content that is NOT for casual teams are raids and ranked pvp. T1 fractals alone have more variety of instanced content than raids have.

    I'm refering to team content which is lacking, not casual content in general. Same as there is lots of challenging content, as PVP seasons or WvW or PVE content as triple trouble or some achievements. But ofc is this challenging content not able to replace raids, it caters to a different kind of players. Guilds/teams are seriously lacking content in GW2. 1-2 fractals only are by far not enough. I doubt that many raid players would be happy if there would be no raids and they'd be stuck with fractals only since HoT. That's the situation more casual groups are in. They also don't enjoy repeating content hundreds of times. So even with 5 repetitions that's content for 10 weeks. Then leave the game for 10 months, waiting for new content?

    Fractals are problematic bc reward structure and design (~15min content) is the same. New fractals cater imho mostly to active fractal players, but for people which feel done with fractals? Do a new fractal maybe once and that's it. Imho is a new concept needed with new unique rewards and so on. Farming tokens for bigger bags, achievements or whatever.
    btw. easier teamcontent also helps to reduce the gap to raids. People start to improve their equip for dungeons and fractals. They learn how to play. It just takes time and if they run out of content before they are "raid ready" they'll move into open world and forget all progress they made.

    Lacking group/guildcontent is btw. a problem which you can find differently worded a lot, as recent example: https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/a5mjwx/okay_one_more_im_sorry/
    "guildmissions". People got a guild, but nothing to do together. Casual guilds advertised for a long time with "guildmissions, dungeons, fractals". Teamcontent is very important, it helps to form a community. These people are not looking for a challange, they are looking for something to do together. That's btw not a new problem. An elderly couple of my alliance complained in 2012 shortly after release. They left for Teso afaik. Married, wanted to play something together. In GW1 we did successfully "raid" together, they posted afterwards pictures of them and their "preparations" (coffee, mozartkugeln and cake). In GW2 I wouldn't even dare to bring them into most dungeons.

    Yes they may not normally farm gold efficiently, but theres absolutely nothing stopping them from doing so for 1 hr. Raids need preparation anyway in the form of learning rotations and mechanics so 1 hr isnt alot to ask. If they cant devote 1hr to preparing for the endgame pve bosses then the content is not for them, and thats fine.

    New players dont need scholar runes..they arent going to stay above 90% HP anyway. In this case, a budget rune would be fine.

    If your concern is they will spend effort and dislike it, therefore having wasted the effort then just go and try cairn escort or MO in kitten gear. You wont be able to kill it but you can still experience the boss itself and get an idea of what raids are like.

    If they have the free time to play gw2 whenever the schedule asks for, but still choose to only play 1 hr per week then again they really arent interested in the game at all and I dont see why anet should invest in them, especially over casual players who enjoy living world ect and play multiple times per week.

    Its natural that hardcore players get more team content, since thats the main content they are invested in. Casuals on top of fracs also get a full living world release. Instanced content in general is lacking but if you want more, the resources from that have to come from somewhere, and that means less living story. Id love to have more fractals and even dungeons, and less living world. Doing so would completely change the direction of the game though, and I doubt most people would like that.

  • Just wanted to throw my 2 cents in, as a 'casual' GW2 player that used to be a raider back in the WotLK days of WoW...

    So, I mostly agree with OP in that there is a significant rift between experienced raiders and 'casual' players that are somewhat interested in raids. The problem is honestly the barriers to entry that are present are completely anti-casual. Now, I'm not saying that raid content should be a walk in the park. Obviously, raid content should require learning of the mechanics and some preparation - at least, to get your feet wet. But as it is, I don't think any GW2 raids offer content that is do-able without significant investment.

    I say significant investment because for the average player, getting an entire new set of gear and weapons is an investment in time and resources. There's just no way to easily adapt whatever you're running for PvE to a 'meta' build for raiding. Now, before you say that you don't have to run a 'meta' build, let me stop you right there and tell you that, as a casual person interested in raiding, it is practically an imperative (from the experienced raiding community as well as less-experienced PUGs) that you do run a build that is at least 90% meta. From the difficulty in finding a group that will want to raid with you if you're not, to the difficulty of actually succeeding in a raid with an off-meta build, the pressure to change your gear and 'be meta' is enough to turn most casual players off raiding in an instant. Obviously you could probably just run exotics for your new gear and that MIGHT be fine, but the handicap you're giving yourself as an already disadvantaged player in not having the best stats / most advantage will definitely hurt your odds of success. Even more so if you're not very good at sticking to a rotation while also following the mechanics of the fight, or if you're just not good at learning a new rotation to begin with (heaven forbid you try to raid with a PvE skillset / traits).

    Now, assuming someone is willing to put in the time for learning a new build/ rotation and obtains a new set of ascended gear, they have to also start at the very bottom of the barrel in terms of who they're able to raid with (assuming they know the proper avenues to go through to even get into a raiding party in the first place and aren't just trying to PUG it through LFG). This pretty much means that, even if they've gone through the effort and they're not an utterly kitten player, their success is still 9/10ths dependent on the overall skill and quality of the group. Just one or two bad players can ruin it for the rest of the group since the fights are so dependent on the group as a whole. If they're very lucky and are in a good guild they might be able to get into a group of at least 8 other players that are experienced and are willing to teach them the fight (or drag them through it until they get better). Most people wont have this advantage. Most people that have made it this far will try with a bad group, fail for a few hours, get frustrated at the lack of progress (whether it's their fault or not), be completely turned off by the lack of reward/satisfaction there is to be found in raiding, and then vow to never bother with raiding ever again.

    Now that I've said all that, what do I think can be done to alleviate the problem?

    Well, first and foremost, difficulty. If there are challenge difficulties for raids, why not have a newbie-mode? This mode could reduce the damage players take, decrease the health of the boss, outright remove more difficult mechanics or dumb them down so that they're easier to accomplish, make it so players have more/longer buffs, higher healing. Honestly there are so many ways to make the game easier I don't even think I need to continue. Ideally, newbie mode would still teach the mechanics of the fight without being too punishing. This means it would be a natural progression to doing the regular raids, as the regular raids natural progress to challenge mode. Rewards for newbie mode would be less than that of a regular raid (effectively so that running newbie mode would be a waste of time for anyone with enough experience), but should still be enough so that new players feel like they got SOMETHING for their effort (and if they are 100% casual and just want to stick to newbie mode forever, they should be able to EVENTUALLY earn all of the same rewards as people that do regular/challenge raids).

    Second, encourage experienced players to teach new players. This could be done by adding a sort of mentor system to raids where someone that has completed a raid a certain number of times or has completed the challenge mode of a raid gets a bonus reward of some sort. This could be increased drops, bonus loot bags, more gold. All of the above? I'm sure other more interesting rewards could be thought of. The rewards probably shouldn't be unique (since not everyone is cut out to be a teacher) but they should not be so insignificant that experienced players wouldn't care about the bonus at all. Obviously there would need to be some sort of system in place to 'graduate' players out of newbie status - maybe once they've gotten a few kills on a boss they wouldn't be considered a newbie for that boss anymore (so the mentor bonus would not be a permanent thing without constantly taking on new players to mentor).

    Lastly, I feel like the biggest barrier to entry (new builds / gear) should be (pretty much) removed completely. People should be able to demo or rent builds/gear for raids that are 'meta' so that they can try out a raiding build without committing to it and incurring significant costs. It'd be pretty much like renting a mount or the gear/build demo you get when you use an insta-80 boost and it takes you to the silverwastes. This would let people try out new roles in a raid and allow them to figure out what build suits them best that is also conducive to a positive raiding atmosphere. This should probably be limited in some way so that eventually people that want to keep raiding have to buy a new build and gear eventually (maybe only 'newbie' raiders can rent builds and once they graduate to a normal raider they have to buy their own gear?) Alternative they could make it so that you could flat out only rent gear a certain number of times or maybe just increase the cost over time.

    Anyways, that's pretty much my '2 cents' on the issue as someone that would like to get into raiding but just doesn't have the time, resources, patience, etc. If getting into raiding in GW2 was just a little bit easier more people might actually try it instead of relegating it to the list of 'things I would like to, but probably never will, do'.

  • Jockum.1385Jockum.1385 Member ✭✭
    edited December 14, 2018

    @zombyturtle.5980 said:

    Yes they may not normally farm gold efficiently, but theres absolutely nothing stopping them from doing so for 1 hr. Raids need preparation anyway in the form of learning rotations and mechanics so 1 hr isnt alot to ask. [...]

    New players dont need scholar runes..they arent going to stay above 90% HP anyway. In this case, a budget rune would be fine.

    [....]

    If they have the free time to play gw2 whenever the schedule asks for, but still choose to only play 1 hr per week then again they really arent interested in the game at all and I dont see why anet should invest in them, especially over casual players who enjoy living world ect and play multiple times per week.

    No, budget equipment is a really bad idea. For full exotic with good runes etc. it's maybe 8-10 hours for a more casual players. Which is roughly two months of playtime for such a player. That's a huge upfront investment, which is the problem.
    Rotations, as you point out, are another problem. Which requires training. Training exclusivly for raids, lots of time on top of those hours of farming. Ideally you would've learned your rotations and equipped your char already for easier content. But for which easier content?
    You are right: raids are not meant for casual teamplayers. GW2 also.

    It's not "whenever the schedule asks for". It's not that difficult to set up a raid once a year. Once a week is a very different story. You can put a raid on a weekend, on a holiday etc. But yes, more teamoriented players have mostly stopped caring about GW2, because GW2 offers no content for them.
    Even open world communities face the same problem, GW2community (EU) has shut down because there is not enough "open world community" content which requires a bit of organisation etc. GW2 is a singleplayer with an integrated chat and achievement comparision.

    Players which play multiple times per week barely qualify as casuals anymore. Those are core- or hardcoregamers. Sure, Anet can choose which group they cater to. As a guildmate put it "why should I play a MMO solo" before he left the game. I get that GW2 isn't meant for guilds or teams, that's the reason why I always advise against buying GW2 when friends etc. ask. It's a pkayish singleplayer, but there is no shortage of better RPGs.

    Anet is extremly slow at developing new content. That's a matter of tools and design choices. Nightfall was released half a year after factions and offered much more content than HoT.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 14, 2018

    It’s like the same people that say they only play GW2 for Raids and raids alone. There’s better games for if you love raiding.

    That’s like someone who loves racing games only plays GW2 for the beetle racing, it’s a bit absurd.

  • Grogba.6204Grogba.6204 Member ✭✭✭

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    It’s like the same people that say they only play GW2 for Raids and raids alone. There’s better games for if you love raiding.

    That’s like someone who loves racing games only plays GW2 for the beetle racing, it’s a bit absurd.

    But in other racing games they actually have to compete with racing players. Here they can be on top without having to try too hard

  • sigur.9453sigur.9453 Member ✭✭✭

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    It’s like the same people that say they only play GW2 for Raids and raids alone. There’s better games for if you love raiding.

    That’s like someone who loves racing games only plays GW2 for the beetle racing, it’s a bit absurd.

    Hi, I am one of those players. Sadly there is no game currently that can compete with Gw2 fight mechanics. Which is an important part for me. And the few raids we have here are awesome. Arguable not all of them. But rest assured, at the first glance of a raid focused game with equal or better "feeling" I will leave this, for you absurd state. A win win so you may call it.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 14, 2018

    @Jockum.1385 said:

    @zombyturtle.5980 said:

    Yes they may not normally farm gold efficiently, but theres absolutely nothing stopping them from doing so for 1 hr. Raids need preparation anyway in the form of learning rotations and mechanics so 1 hr isnt alot to ask. [...]

    New players dont need scholar runes..they arent going to stay above 90% HP anyway. In this case, a budget rune would be fine.

    [....]

    If they have the free time to play gw2 whenever the schedule asks for, but still choose to only play 1 hr per week then again they really arent interested in the game at all and I dont see why anet should invest in them, especially over casual players who enjoy living world ect and play multiple times per week.

    No, budget equipment is a really bad idea. For full exotic with good runes etc. it's maybe 8-10 hours for a more casual players. Which is roughly two months of playtime for such a player. That's a huge upfront investment, which is the problem.

    A player who needs 2 months to get a basic set of exotic equipment is no wear near the target audience for neither fractals, raids or even dungeons.

    There is a point in time where you have to realize, certain content will NEVER be for certain players. Time commitments are real, but to expect group content to be balanced around players who are not even participating in the game on a regular basis is off the mark.

    @Vinceman.4572 said:
    Jockum. please be serious, the casuals you mention have never seen the fractal lobby from the inside before and most likely don't even know every dungeon by name. There's no need for Anet to bring raids to them when they don't even play other instanced content on a half- or semi-regular basis. If people don't try dungeons and/or fractals it's more than unplausible they will be interested in raids at all.

    This.

    Players this casual have a thousand things they can and should do before they commit to group content.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @sigur.9453 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    It’s like the same people that say they only play GW2 for Raids and raids alone. There’s better games for if you love raiding.

    That’s like someone who loves racing games only plays GW2 for the beetle racing, it’s a bit absurd.

    Hi, I am one of those players. Sadly there is no game currently that can compete with Gw2 fight mechanics. Which is an important part for me. And the few raids we have here are awesome. Arguable not all of them. But rest assured, at the first glance of a raid focused game with equal or better "feeling" I will leave this, for you absurd state. A win win so you may call it.

    Did you ever do WoW raiding?

  • sigur.9453sigur.9453 Member ✭✭✭

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @sigur.9453 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    It’s like the same people that say they only play GW2 for Raids and raids alone. There’s better games for if you love raiding.

    That’s like someone who loves racing games only plays GW2 for the beetle racing, it’s a bit absurd.

    Hi, I am one of those players. Sadly there is no game currently that can compete with Gw2 fight mechanics. Which is an important part for me. And the few raids we have here are awesome. Arguable not all of them. But rest assured, at the first glance of a raid focused game with equal or better "feeling" I will leave this, for you absurd state. A win win so you may call it.

    Did you ever do WoW raiding?

    Way back in vanilla. I'm old. 40 man squads, loved to hate.(it actually was awesome, nostalgia kicks in) But yeah, more a fan of action based combat now. They may have changed that, but well, it's not that eye pleasing anymore.

  • @Tyson.5160 said:

    @sigur.9453 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    It’s like the same people that say they only play GW2 for Raids and raids alone. There’s better games for if you love raiding.

    That’s like someone who loves racing games only plays GW2 for the beetle racing, it’s a bit absurd.

    Hi, I am one of those players. Sadly there is no game currently that can compete with Gw2 fight mechanics. Which is an important part for me. And the few raids we have here are awesome. Arguable not all of them. But rest assured, at the first glance of a raid focused game with equal or better "feeling" I will leave this, for you absurd state. A win win so you may call it.

    Did you ever do WoW raiding?

    Wow raiding is boring for me + the simple idea that you can outgear encounter makes me stayvas farcas possible.

  • @Vinceman.4572 said:
    Jockum. please be serious, the casuals you mention have never seen the fractal lobby from the inside before and most likely don't even know every dungeon by name. There's no need for Anet to bring raids to them when they don't even play other instanced content on a half- or semi-regular basis. If people don't try dungeons and/or fractals it's more than unplausible they will be interested in raids at all.

    Your premise (haven't seen fractals) is wrong, so is your conclusion. Casual players/guilds do dungeons and fractals. They don't farm them. They don't know mechanics. AC1 might take 1 hour. But they were busy for one hour, had some fun, played together as a guild - and that what matters. These players ran out of content years ago. Raids are fine as they are, the lack of teamcontent isn't.
    It actually baffles me that you think these players are not doing dungeons or fractals. Did you think all those complaints about zerk-meta some years ago were made by dungeon speedrunners? All those staffguards are all 300KP fractal CM players?
    By my experience quite a lot are "casual or coregamer teamplayers". Maybe a hardcoreplayer with his girlfriend, who is playing very casually. A married couple. Some classmates or friends which are playing GW together. Two brothers. A father with his son. Stuff as this is normal. Most of GW2s content is not very satisfying for teams, it is designed to be done solo. Ofc it is questionable how many teamplayers are still left in GW2 at this point, similar as PVP or WvW players.

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    A player who needs 2 months to get a basic set of exotic equipment is no wear near the target audience for neither fractals, raids or even dungeons.

    There is a point in time where you have to realize, certain content will NEVER be for certain players. Time commitments are real, but to expect group content to be balanced around players who are not even participating in the game on a regular basis is off the mark.
    [...]
    Players this casual have a thousand things they can and should do before they commit to group content.

    Originally this thread was about a rift in the community, your comment and some others prove OP right. Just to point at a basic misunderstanding of you and vinceman: Guilds want to play together. A couple wants to play content together. They don't want to stick to singleplayer content, they bought a MMO. They could have choosen to play skyrim, they chose GW2 to play together. Teamcontent does not need to be difficult. GW1 was a good casual- and coregamer multiplayer game. GW2 is a singleplayer with nearly no teamcontent.

    No, it's not only about 80 Gold or so for an exotic set. It's about an initial investment of time (=gold) which hinders players. It's about a terrible designed game which does not teach players "along the way" how to play and which equip to use. It's about a huge spontanous step instead of many small steps (usually called "learning curve"). It's about a game in which you have two completly separated communities, with zero knowledge about each others problems. It's about lacking content, which trains players to become better player, which turns one huge step into raids into many small steps. Content which is a bit more demanding for equip and teamplay, so players start to improve step by step.
    Some players were also not able to do all teamcontent in GW1, but there were many other options available for them. In GW2 alternative teamcontent is seriously lacking.

  • @zombyturtle.5980 said:
    You do not need 80g exotics to play raids. Stop pretending you do. You do not need scholar runes. Stop pretending you do.
    There is no gear check at the start of raids that kicks you out of you arent running meta. Go try the raid in bad gear. Nothing stops you. Stop pretending it does.

    You guild barely even plays dungeons. Raids are not for them. Raids are for people looking for challenging repeatable content. Raids are not for your guild who will play them once on the holidays and then never go back. How many times has your guild repeated lair of the snowman?

    Anet should not invest in instanced content for players who will never go back to it. They are better off investing in living story.

    If you hate the game so much because there is not alot of forced instanced content for casuals. Then you should find another game. Casual content in this game is open world.

    Sorry to say but everything you just said is further proof of the rift between experience raiders and casuals.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Jockum.1385 said:

    @Vinceman.4572 said:
    Jockum. please be serious, the casuals you mention have never seen the fractal lobby from the inside before and most likely don't even know every dungeon by name. There's no need for Anet to bring raids to them when they don't even play other instanced content on a half- or semi-regular basis. If people don't try dungeons and/or fractals it's more than unplausible they will be interested in raids at all.

    Your premise (haven't seen fractals) is wrong, so is your conclusion. Casual players/guilds do dungeons and fractals. They don't farm them. They don't know mechanics. AC1 might take 1 hour. But they were busy for one hour, had some fun, played together as a guild - and that what matters. These players ran out of content years ago. Raids are fine as they are, the lack of teamcontent isn't.
    It actually baffles me that you think these players are not doing dungeons or fractals. Did you think all those complaints about zerk-meta some years ago were made by dungeon speedrunners? All those staffguards are all 300KP fractal CM players?
    By my experience quite a lot are "casual or coregamer teamplayers". Maybe a hardcoreplayer with his girlfriend, who is playing very casually. A married couple. Some classmates or friends which are playing GW together. Two brothers. A father with his son. Stuff as this is normal. Most of GW2s content is not very satisfying for teams, it is designed to be done solo. Ofc it is questionable how many teamplayers are still left in GW2 at this point, similar as PVP or WvW players.

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    A player who needs 2 months to get a basic set of exotic equipment is no wear near the target audience for neither fractals, raids or even dungeons.

    There is a point in time where you have to realize, certain content will NEVER be for certain players. Time commitments are real, but to expect group content to be balanced around players who are not even participating in the game on a regular basis is off the mark.
    [...]
    Players this casual have a thousand things they can and should do before they commit to group content.

    Originally this thread was about a rift in the community, your comment and some others prove OP right. Just to point at a basic misunderstanding of you and vinceman: Guilds want to play together. A couple wants to play content together. They don't want to stick to singleplayer content, they bought a MMO. They could have choosen to play skyrim, they chose GW2 to play together. Teamcontent does not need to be difficult. GW1 was a good casual- and coregamer multiplayer game. GW2 is a singleplayer with nearly no teamcontent.

    I think I have quite a bit better a grasp of what guilds do and don't than you considering I am in 3 very different guilds with players ranging from very casual (as you described) to very hardcore (5 raids per week).

    This is the simple reality:

    • players as casual as you describe are 99% of the time not interested in raids, fractals or dungeons. Dungeons being the hail-marry exception when they do a path 1nce a year with other guildies. IF they do dungeon paths, most do not
    • dungeons are not raids. Dungeons and low rank fractals do not require any type of setup. High level fractals (CMs specifically) and raids require specific setups and a minimum knowledge and understanding of ones class. By your own admission this is not present with super casual players. That is not a rift, that is content designed for a different type of player, from the conception
    • the gear you described is not even required for raids. Raids have been cleared in greens. Even if

    Again, you are litereally making things up as you go. Challenging content by its very name and design can never be for super casual players who do not have the time to invest into mastering their class. That's absolute stupidity.

    @Jockum.1385 said:

    No, it's not only about 80 Gold or so for an exotic set. It's about an initial investment of time (=gold) which hinders players. It's about a terrible designed game which does not teach players "along the way" how to play and which equip to use. It's about a huge spontanous step instead of many small steps (usually called "learning curve"). It's about a game in which you have two completly separated communities, with zero knowledge about each others problems. It's about lacking content, which trains players to become better player, which turns one huge step into raids into many small steps. Content which is a bit more demanding for equip and teamplay, so players start to improve step by step.

    Sure, the game should be teaching players better about how to play their class. I completely agree.

    That has nothing to do with the fact that raid content is designed as difficult content (as difficult as Arenanet dare implement since compared to other MMO Raids it's not that difficult).

    The content which gradually increases is called fractals. It's not Arenanets fault if a super casual player as you describe them goes credit card warrior and jumps strait into T4.

    @Jockum.1385 said:
    Some players were also not able to do all teamcontent in GW1, but there were many other options available for them. In GW2 alternative teamcontent is seriously lacking.

    Raid content in GW2 makes up approximately 5% of all content added. The game is more casual friendly and offers more things to do for very casual players compared to GW1. You just said it yourself: in GW1 there was challenging content which people were unable to complete. Your problem is not with the design or difficulty of raid content, it's with lacking alternatives on the lower end. That is not a rift since the fact that raid content exists has nothing to do with lacking team content.

    On that notion, more difficult group content did and does exist. Yet every single time a more difficult world boss, living world episode, fractal or anything gets added, these forums light up with complaints that the game is to hard. That is not a rfit, that is part of a player base which does not want difficult content. That is not fault of raids. Calling this a rift is plain incorrect. It's diverging player interests at best, and you are never going to get people to play content they do not enjoy and should not force this.

  • @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @irrimn.3192 said:

    @zombyturtle.5980 said:
    You do not need 80g exotics to play raids. Stop pretending you do. You do not need scholar runes. Stop pretending you do.
    There is no gear check at the start of raids that kicks you out of you arent running meta. Go try the raid in bad gear. Nothing stops you. Stop pretending it does.

    You guild barely even plays dungeons. Raids are not for them. Raids are for people looking for challenging repeatable content. Raids are not for your guild who will play them once on the holidays and then never go back. How many times has your guild repeated lair of the snowman?

    Anet should not invest in instanced content for players who will never go back to it. They are better off investing in living story.

    If you hate the game so much because there is not alot of forced instanced content for casuals. Then you should find another game. Casual content in this game is open world.

    Sorry to say but everything you just said is further proof of the rift between experience raiders and casuals.

    Apply basic critical thinking and knowledge about limited resources and developer time. A limited scope and specific target audiences which need different catering too.

    Then read again.

    If you still can't see his point, you are definitely not a target audience which should be catered too or which it's worth catering to.

    I don't think you're actually using critical thinking if you agree that raids should be content catered to a very small, specific subset of the player population when you bring in the fact that there is limited resources, time, and scope. Shouldn't the devs not even bother with creating raid content at all then since it caters to 5% of the playbase? Shouldn't they instead spend all of their time and resources catering to the largest percentage of the playerbase possible so as to retain as many players for as long as possible?

    Aside from your clearly flawed "critical thinking", adding an easy-mode to raids COULD be as easy and simple as tweaking some damage numbers and timers. It genuinely wouldn't take near as many devs as it does to create an entirely new raid from nothing, effectively re-purposing old content.

  • yann.1946yann.1946 Member ✭✭✭

    @irrimn.3192 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @irrimn.3192 said:

    @zombyturtle.5980 said:
    You do not need 80g exotics to play raids. Stop pretending you do. You do not need scholar runes. Stop pretending you do.
    There is no gear check at the start of raids that kicks you out of you arent running meta. Go try the raid in bad gear. Nothing stops you. Stop pretending it does.

    You guild barely even plays dungeons. Raids are not for them. Raids are for people looking for challenging repeatable content. Raids are not for your guild who will play them once on the holidays and then never go back. How many times has your guild repeated lair of the snowman?

    Anet should not invest in instanced content for players who will never go back to it. They are better off investing in living story.

    If you hate the game so much because there is not alot of forced instanced content for casuals. Then you should find another game. Casual content in this game is open world.

    Sorry to say but everything you just said is further proof of the rift between experience raiders and casuals.

    Apply basic critical thinking and knowledge about limited resources and developer time. A limited scope and specific target audiences which need different catering too.

    Then read again.

    If you still can't see his point, you are definitely not a target audience which should be catered too or which it's worth catering to.

    I don't think you're actually using critical thinking if you agree that raids should be content catered to a very small, specific subset of the player population when you bring in the fact that there is limited resources, time, and scope. Shouldn't the devs not even bother with creating raid content at all then since it caters to 5% of the playbase? Shouldn't they instead spend all of their time and resources catering to the largest percentage of the playerbase possible so as to retain as many players for as long as possible?

    The thought would be that the gain in retention of putting de raid resources to the largest population would be less then these 5% you keep by maintaining raids.

    Aside from your clearly flawed "critical thinking", adding an easy-mode to raids COULD be as easy and simple as tweaking some damage numbers and timers. It genuinely wouldn't take near as many devs as it does to create an entirely new raid from nothing, effectively re-purposing old content.

    Their are 3 things wrong with this thinking.

    • a good easy mode would almost never just be tweak some numbers.
      -we don't know how hard it is to change these numbers + the required ui changes.
    • you're forgetting the planning phase.
  • Jockum.1385Jockum.1385 Member ✭✭
    edited December 16, 2018

    @zombyturtle.5980 said:
    You do not need 80g exotics to play raids. Stop pretending you do. [...]
    You guild barely even plays dungeons. Raids are not for them. [....]

    Anet should not invest in instanced content for players who will never go back to it. They are better off investing in living story.

    If you hate the game so much because there is not alot of forced instanced content for casuals. Then you should find another game.

    I really recommend to read this thread again and more carefully because you seem to lack the understanding of this topic here.
    I know that GW2 is not meant for teamplayers or for me, but I already wrote this earlier. I personally have discouraged roughly 30 people from buying GW2 for this exact reason and I haven't bought PoF for the same reason. I'll do a bit WvW, some fractals - and when bored maybe some open world. But I'm not willing to invest money into a game like this anymore.
    What you really should keep in mind: usually there are by far more casual and coregamers than hardcoreplayers. When there is a group of people which are playing team hardcorecontent as raids it is questionable to asume that there is no one who would play casual or coregamer teamcontent. When content for more casual players is not worth developing it (despite GW1 being a full game catering to exact these players) then raids are ofc also not worth it.

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    This is the simple reality:

    • players as casual as you describe are 99% of the time not interested in raids, fractals or dungeons. Dungeons being the hail-marry exception when they do a path 1nce a year with other guildies. IF they do dungeon paths, most do not
    • dungeons are not raids. Dungeons and low rank fractals do not require any type of setup. High level fractals (CMs specifically) and raids require specific setups and a minimum knowledge and understanding of ones class. By your own admission this is not present with super casual players. That is not a rift, that is content designed for a different type of player, from the conception

    While it is true that quite a lot are only interested in solo content (see those threads asking for solomodes for dungeons etc.) there are also teamoriented players. How big each group is, is speculative since GW2 offers no teamcontent. To asume the amount of hardcoreplayers being bigger than the amount of casual- or coregamers is extremly optimistic. Usually there are by far more casuals. I think it's safe to asume that there are more players interested in casual group content than in hardcore group content as raids. It is also definately wrong to say "doing dungeons only once or twice = not interested in them". Many players also do story only once, too. But all of this aside:
    If you have read forums in the past years you have for sure seen many threads asking for new dungeons, asking for new fractals, asking for easymode raids, asking for new guildmissions. More casual players are usually less engaged in a game and not as active in forums as hardcoreplayer.
    I asume you have also seen all those threads complaining about zerg meta. Or too strict fractal requirements. Maybe you have also seen some of the threads where guilds/players said that GW2 has nothing to offer for them since dungeons are dead. There have been plenty of complaints, bc raids don't cover the needs of all former dungeon runners. So obviously there are players caring about easier teamcontent.

    No, it is a rift by game design, as explained by me earlier. You simply should not have to recruit a open world player and have to teach him his class mechanics. This is a proof of a terrible designed game. A game should not be splitted into "does not need to know anything about his class mechanics in endgame content and still performs well (open world)" and "needs to know everything (raids)". There should be content in between closing this gap. Lots of content. It's called "learning curve", not "learning cliff". Many small steps form a curve, not one huge kitten step from "111 in green equip" to "needs to know his class rotations and mechanics, boss mechanics and be full asc". There really should be something in between, it should not be necessary to explain basics as CC in raids.

    Usually content is designed like a pyramid, a big basis of easy content for everyone and a small top of challenging content. You can climb up step by step, if you leave out the small top you still got access to 95% of all content. This goes for open world content (map completion is a lot, triple trouble or other challenging content is not 50% of all open world content). And this should also be true for group content. But it isn't. And that's a problem. Not only for the (imho) bigger crowd of casual- and core- teamplayers, it also results in less people advancing into raids and in consequence in less raid content bc too small playerbase to justify dev effort.

    • the gear you described is not even required for raids. Raids have been cleared in greens. Even if

    Shows your lack of basic understanding. Grab a group of terrible open world players which struggle in T1 fractals and try to teach them more difficult content, especially raids. You'll be happy about each extra % of damage. Those who cleaned raids in greens are by far no "111 faceroll" noobs. If you think so you should probably debate that with the involved guilds and not with me. Maybe try to understand that good players are able to do stuff with a handicap. For a bad player an additional handicap is a problem. In theory bad/new players should have a by far better equipment to learn boss mechanics and the better they get the worse their equip can get to keep content interesting. Such "negative level ups" are afaik a theoretical concept in game design.

    Teamcontent is not per se challenging content. That's nonsense. It wasn't about raids being meant as challenging content. That's ok. The serious lack of easier teamcontent is not ok and is a huge reason for this segregated community.

    Raid content in GW2 makes up approximately 5% of all content added.

    It's roughly 50%. I am refering here the whole time to teamcontent. Or should I now start counting PVP seasons as challenging content and start complaining about too much challenging content? There is no need for a new raids, bc there is a new pvp season? Is it this what you are claiming? Maybe try to understand that challenging content as triple trouble does not cater to raid players? Maybe try to understand that guilds want to play content together as a guild and GW2 offers nothing for such players? Open world content can't replace instanced teamcontent.

    Your problem is not with the design or difficulty of raid content, it's with lacking alternatives on the lower end.

    That's exactly what I said some posts earlier, yes. If HoT and PoF both would've added 10 new dungeons all of this would be a very different debate. But they didn't. Conclusion is: GW2 is not made for casual- or coregamers interested in teamcontent. If you got 3 friends and are looking for a MMO, GW2 is the wrong game for you. If you are looking for a MMO but want to play it without having to play with other players or having to team GW2 is doing a good job. But I personally think that such players should better stick with Skyrim etc., I'm also not asking for Battlefield to be turned into a racing sim.

  • Shikaru.7618Shikaru.7618 Member ✭✭✭

    @Jockum.1385 said:

    @zombyturtle.5980 said:
    You do not need 80g exotics to play raids. Stop pretending you do. [...]
    You guild barely even plays dungeons. Raids are not for them. [....]

    Anet should not invest in instanced content for players who will never go back to it. They are better off investing in living story.

    If you hate the game so much because there is not alot of forced instanced content for casuals. Then you should find another game.

    I really recommend to read this thread again and more carefully because you seem to lack the understanding of this topic here.
    I know that GW2 is not meant for teamplayers or for me, but I already wrote this earlier. I personally have discouraged roughly 30 people from buying GW2 for this exact reason and I haven't bought PoF for the same reason. I'll do a bit WvW, some fractals - and when bored maybe some open world. But I'm not willing to invest money into a game like this anymore.
    What you really should keep in mind: usually there are by far more casual and coregamers than hardcoreplayers. When there is a group of people which are playing team hardcorecontent as raids it is questionable to asume that there is no one who would play casual or coregamer teamcontent. When content for more casual players is not worth developing it (despite GW1 being a full game catering to exact these players) then raids are ofc also not worth it.

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    This is the simple reality:

    • players as casual as you describe are 99% of the time not interested in raids, fractals or dungeons. Dungeons being the hail-marry exception when they do a path 1nce a year with other guildies. IF they do dungeon paths, most do not
    • dungeons are not raids. Dungeons and low rank fractals do not require any type of setup. High level fractals (CMs specifically) and raids require specific setups and a minimum knowledge and understanding of ones class. By your own admission this is not present with super casual players. That is not a rift, that is content designed for a different type of player, from the conception

    While it is true that quite a lot are only interested in solo content (see those threads asking for solomodes for dungeons etc.) there are also teamoriented players. How big each group is, is speculative since GW2 offers no teamcontent. To asume the amount of hardcoreplayers being bigger than the amount of casual- or coregamers is extremly optimistic. Usually there are by far more casuals. I think it's safe to asume that there are more players interested in casual group content than in hardcore group content as raids. It is also definately wrong to say "doing dungeons only once or twice = not interested in them". Many players also do story only once, too. But all of this aside:
    If you have read forums in the past years you have for sure seen many threads asking for new dungeons, asking for new fractals, asking for easymode raids, asking for new guildmissions. More casual players are usually less engaged in a game and not as active in forums as hardcoreplayer.
    I asume you have also seen all those threads complaining about zerg meta. Or too strict fractal requirements. Maybe you have also seen some of the threads where guilds/players said that GW2 has nothing to offer for them since dungeons are dead. There have been plenty of complaints, bc raids don't cover the needs of all former dungeon runners. So obviously there are players caring about easier teamcontent.

    No, it is a rift by game design, as explained by me earlier. You simply should not have to recruit a open world player and have to teach him his class mechanics. This is a proof of a terrible designed game. A game should not be splitted into "does not need to know anything about his class mechanics in endgame content and still performs well (open world)" and "needs to know everything (raids)". There should be content in between closing this gap. Lots of content. It's called "learning curve", not "learning cliff". Many small steps form a curve, not one huge kitten step from "111 in green equip" to "needs to know his class rotations and mechanics, boss mechanics and be full asc". There really should be something in between, it should not be necessary to explain basics as CC in raids.

    Usually content is designed like a pyramid, a big basis of easy content for everyone and a small top of challenging content. You can climb up step by step, if you leave out the small top you still got access to 95% of all content. This goes for open world content (map completion is a lot, triple trouble or other challenging content is not 50% of all open world content). And this should also be true for group content. But it isn't. And that's a problem. Not only for the (imho) bigger crowd of casual- and core- teamplayers, it also results in less people advancing into raids and in consequence in less raid content bc too small playerbase to justify dev effort.

    • the gear you described is not even required for raids. Raids have been cleared in greens. Even if

    Shows your lack of basic understanding. Grab a group of terrible open world players which struggle in T1 fractals and try to teach them more difficult content, especially raids. You'll be happy about each extra % of damage. Those who cleaned raids in greens are by far no "111 faceroll" noobs. If you think so you should probably debate that with the involved guilds and not with me. Maybe try to understand that good players are able to do stuff with a handicap. For a bad player an additional handicap is a problem. In theory bad/new players should have a by far better equipment to learn boss mechanics and the better they get the worse their equip can get to keep content interesting. Such "negative level ups" are afaik a theoretical concept in game design.

    Teamcontent is not per se challenging content. That's nonsense. It wasn't about raids being meant as challenging content. That's ok. The serious lack of easier teamcontent is not ok.

    Raid content in GW2 makes up approximately 5% of all content added.

    It's roughly 50%. I am refering here the whole time to teamcontent. Or should I now start counting PVP seasons as challenging content and start complaining about too much challenging content? There is no need for a new raids, bc there is a new pvp season? Is it this what you are claiming? Maybe try to understand that challenging content as triple trouble does not cater to raid players? Maybe try to understand that guilds want to play content together as a guild and GW2 offers nothing for such players? Open world content can't replace instanced teamcontent.

    Your problem is not with the design or difficulty of raid content, it's with lacking alternatives on the lower end.

    That's exactly what I said some posts earlier, yes. If HoT and PoF both would've added 10 new dungeons all of this would be a very different debate. But they didn't. Conclusion is: GW2 is not made for casual- or coregamers interested in teamcontent. If you got 3 friends and are looking for a MMO, GW2 is the wrong game for you. If you are looking for a MMO but want to play it without having to play with other players or having to team GW2 is doing a good job. But I personally think that such players should better stick with Skyrim etc., I'm also not asking for Battlefield to be turned into a racing sim.

    I will agree with you that guild wars 2 has a terrible learning curve within the game itself. This is exacerbated by the fact that there exists no content in the game where hardcore and casual players mix well. Dungeons used to fill this role of bridging the gap. The difficulty requirements were low enough to be accessible and created a space where you could learn tactics and class mechanics organically from more experienced players that pugged into your party. Nowadays we have t4 fractal groups devoid of most skilled players because they're all in 100kp cm groups or in raids.

    I dont think easy mode versions of existing raids is the answer either since those rewards have been for the most part skill gates (blah blah blah raid sellers) but content like lair of the snowmen I'd love to see more of to help bridge the gap.

  • I don't know how all of you guys in here find the time to write so much but don't find the time to learn raids.

  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @rabenpriester.7129 said:
    I don't know how all of you guys in here find the time to write so much but don't find the time to learn raids.

    Post from Work.. it's not hard.

    There are two kinds of Gamers, Salty, and Extra Salty.
    Ego is the Anesthesia that dullens the pain of Stupidity.

  • @Jockum.1385 said:

    @zombyturtle.5980 said:
    You do not need 80g exotics to play raids. Stop pretending you do. [...]
    You guild barely even plays dungeons. Raids are not for them. [....]

    Anet should not invest in instanced content for players who will never go back to it. They are better off investing in living story.

    If you hate the game so much because there is not alot of forced instanced content for casuals. Then you should find another game.

    I really recommend to read this thread again and more carefully because you seem to lack the understanding of this topic here.
    I know that GW2 is not meant for teamplayers or for me, but I already wrote this earlier. I personally have discouraged roughly 30 people from buying GW2 for this exact reason and I haven't bought PoF for the same reason. I'll do a bit WvW, some fractals - and when bored maybe some open world. But I'm not willing to invest money into a game like this anymore.
    What you really should keep in mind: usually there are by far more casual and coregamers than hardcoreplayers. When there is a group of people which are playing team hardcorecontent as raids it is questionable to asume that there is no one who would play casual or coregamer teamcontent. When content for more casual players is not worth developing it (despite GW1 being a full game catering to exact these players) then raids are ofc also not worth it.

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    This is the simple reality:

    • players as casual as you describe are 99% of the time not interested in raids, fractals or dungeons. Dungeons being the hail-marry exception when they do a path 1nce a year with other guildies. IF they do dungeon paths, most do not
    • dungeons are not raids. Dungeons and low rank fractals do not require any type of setup. High level fractals (CMs specifically) and raids require specific setups and a minimum knowledge and understanding of ones class. By your own admission this is not present with super casual players. That is not a rift, that is content designed for a different type of player, from the conception

    While it is true that quite a lot are only interested in solo content (see those threads asking for solomodes for dungeons etc.) there are also teamoriented players. How big each group is, is speculative since GW2 offers no teamcontent. To asume the amount of hardcoreplayers being bigger than the amount of casual- or coregamers is extremly optimistic. Usually there are by far more casuals. I think it's safe to asume that there are more players interested in casual group content than in hardcore group content as raids. It is also definately wrong to say "doing dungeons only once or twice = not interested in them". Many players also do story only once, too. But all of this aside:
    If you have read forums in the past years you have for sure seen many threads asking for new dungeons, asking for new fractals, asking for easymode raids, asking for new guildmissions. More casual players are usually less engaged in a game and not as active in forums as hardcoreplayer.
    I asume you have also seen all those threads complaining about zerg meta. Or too strict fractal requirements. Maybe you have also seen some of the threads where guilds/players said that GW2 has nothing to offer for them since dungeons are dead. There have been plenty of complaints, bc raids don't cover the needs of all former dungeon runners. So obviously there are players caring about easier teamcontent.

    No, it is a rift by game design, as explained by me earlier. You simply should not have to recruit a open world player and have to teach him his class mechanics. This is a proof of a terrible designed game. A game should not be splitted into "does not need to know anything about his class mechanics in endgame content and still performs well (open world)" and "needs to know everything (raids)". There should be content in between closing this gap. Lots of content. It's called "learning curve", not "learning cliff". Many small steps form a curve, not one huge kitten step from "111 in green equip" to "needs to know his class rotations and mechanics, boss mechanics and be full asc". There really should be something in between, it should not be necessary to explain basics as CC in raids.

    Usually content is designed like a pyramid, a big basis of easy content for everyone and a small top of challenging content. You can climb up step by step, if you leave out the small top you still got access to 95% of all content. This goes for open world content (map completion is a lot, triple trouble or other challenging content is not 50% of all open world content). And this should also be true for group content. But it isn't. And that's a problem. Not only for the (imho) bigger crowd of casual- and core- teamplayers, it also results in less people advancing into raids and in consequence in less raid content bc too small playerbase to justify dev effort.

    • the gear you described is not even required for raids. Raids have been cleared in greens. Even if

    Shows your lack of basic understanding. Grab a group of terrible open world players which struggle in T1 fractals and try to teach them more difficult content, especially raids. You'll be happy about each extra % of damage. Those who cleaned raids in greens are by far no "111 faceroll" noobs. If you think so you should probably debate that with the involved guilds and not with me. Maybe try to understand that good players are able to do stuff with a handicap. For a bad player an additional handicap is a problem. In theory bad/new players should have a by far better equipment to learn boss mechanics and the better they get the worse their equip can get to keep content interesting. Such "negative level ups" are afaik a theoretical concept in game design.

    Teamcontent is not per se challenging content. That's nonsense. It wasn't about raids being meant as challenging content. That's ok. The serious lack of easier teamcontent is not ok and is a huge reason for this segregated community.

    Raid content in GW2 makes up approximately 5% of all content added.

    It's roughly 50%. I am refering here the whole time to teamcontent. Or should I now start counting PVP seasons as challenging content and start complaining about too much challenging content? There is no need for a new raids, bc there is a new pvp season? Is it this what you are claiming? Maybe try to understand that challenging content as triple trouble does not cater to raid players? Maybe try to understand that guilds want to play content together as a guild and GW2 offers nothing for such players? Open world content can't replace instanced teamcontent.

    Your problem is not with the design or difficulty of raid content, it's with lacking alternatives on the lower end.

    That's exactly what I said some posts earlier, yes. If HoT and PoF both would've added 10 new dungeons all of this would be a very different debate. But they didn't. Conclusion is: GW2 is not made for casual- or coregamers interested in teamcontent. If you got 3 friends and are looking for a MMO, GW2 is the wrong game for you. If you are looking for a MMO but want to play it without having to play with other players or having to team GW2 is doing a good job. But I personally think that such players should better stick with Skyrim etc., I'm also not asking for Battlefield to be turned into a racing sim.

    They invest in raids to keep hardcore players playing regularly and spending money regularly. Thats literally the only purpose of raids. Without raids, most of those players would leave the game out of boredom and stop spending.

    Casual players dont NEED instanced content to keep their interest in game, for the most part. While it would be nice for them to have most casual instanced content, living story is enough to keep the majority spending. Therefore anet wont invest more money in content that wont give a significant return. Yes they may lose some paying customers, but 30 customers are nothing to them in the long term.

    Even if they did choose to make more casual instanced content, you fully admit your guildies would probably play it once and then never go back, like you have done with fracs and dungeons. This is a massive problem for anet as the whole purpose of raids, and therefore for new casual instanced content would be to keep players returning REGULARLY. If you dont return regularly to play it, its wasted.

    Again, 10-20 dungeons is a ridiculous estimation. There were only 8 dungeons at launch. 2-3 would be more realistic for an expansion.

    There is also plenty of content that casual games can do as a team. Hero point runs, bountys, group metas ect. But they are not forced to be in a team to complete it. Anet chose this path as it pleases both sides.

    And once again, I wouild also like more dungeons. But anet has been clear. No more dungeons.

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