DPS shaming - Page 2 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

DPS shaming

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  • ReaverKane.7598ReaverKane.7598 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @phs.6089 said:

    @ReaverKane.7598 said:

    These are usually the same people who think they can jump bug flux bombs on Shattered Observatory and end up dropping them on top of Arkk occassionally or on Siax or puking over everybody or spawning a nightmare in 99CM because god forbid they move off the boss to do a mechanic and their precious meter drops. Same with anomalies on Arkk, you could just kill the kitten anomaly which takes less than 5 seconds to be safe instead of being a greedy kitten and trying to skip every phase and remove every challenge possible from an encounter by trying to brute force it with burst DPS. Then things go wrong when they find out not every group can burst efficiently and they throw a tantrum when said group can still pull off mechanics cleanly for a kill with no wipes.

    And yet, if there's a more efficient way of doing things by "brute forcing" through mechanics, why wouldn't you?

    cus sometimes you wanna stop and smell the roses and cus most of the time those brutforcers juts to showoff their dps ignore anything and waste my time by wiping

    I smelled the roses the first 3-10 times through... Now i want to hold my breath and plow through the content in as little time as i can. If i choose to do so, and the majority of the community does so. I don't think that people that don't "feel like" pulling their own weight have no business telling me how to play.
    What you forget is that 90% of the people have completed the content more than once, and are just going through the motions, because the game requires you to farm. If you're late to the bus, it's ok, there's a lot of people willing to teach you how to. Heck i'm willing to bet anything that most of the "elitists" i know probably spent more hours trudging through content to teach new players how to do it than anyone that complains about elitists in the forums.
    How can i say this? Easy, if you're here complaining about people that do content efficiently, odds are you don't know how to do it yourself.

    @Belorn.2659 said:
    DPS, boon sharing, CC, heals, toughness checks, blocks, pushes, special action key, condition damage, boon strip, blue circles, red orbs, eggs, bombs, mushrooms, poison, reflects, portals, stacking, buttons, pulls, hands, black, dead, green circles, light, big orbs, shackles, soul split, enforces, 10%, swords, shields, lamp...

    Each and every one of those are critical to perform correctly in raiding. They are all mechanics, and DPS is just one among many. Failure will result in player death, lost time and frustration if continued for too long. Calling out players on any of those in voice or squad chat is not harassment in of itself. Playing a game means working within the constraints of the game mechanics, and raid is designed to have more mechanics than any other game mode.

    Harassment is not about which mechanic someone is failing at, but rather how people are calling out someone. Harassing someone about reflects in mathias, getting egged in gor, missing a green at dhuum, getting picked up by during CM, or low DPS is all the same from a game rule perspective. Harassment is not allowed, but calling out people for failing mechanics is. The distinction is in how it is done.

    Exactly! The issue is, lots of people will take any criticism of their infallible selves as harassment. I mean, if someone talked to me like OP's example... I'd probably take notice of my DPS and see what's failing or just tell him to stuff it cause i'm a support chrono ^_^ But i wouldn't think of it as harassment. Yet op clearly does. I think it's also a cultural and generational problem. Some people have incredibly thin skins, so thin i'm baffled how they manage to survive in the internet.

    @Zenith.7301 said:

    @ReaverKane.7598 said:

    @Zenith.7301 said:

    @ReaverKane.7598 said:

    @Deimos.4263 said:

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:
    Basically, you're asking whether ANet should punish people for being rude; they don't and they won't.

    They can and they should, at least according to their own ToS. You can inform a player their DPS is sub-par without being rude about it. It is possible.

    And yet, as polite as you are there's always people that will take any criticism as constructive as you make it, as harassment.

    @Zenith.7301 said:
    I mean, there's a difference of a person doing 3k DPS (which I don't even buy, that's just plain impossible unless you're playing a magi druid or minstrel chrono)

    Get a DPS meter... You'll be surprised. I've outdpsed "DPS" Necromancers, thieves and Elementalists on full Minstrel Chrono. There's a lot of people out there that don't know what they're doing.
    There's people that just copy the builds from the page, don't even read why the build works, or how. And then go do content and just don't do anything, because they don't know how their rotation works, don't know how to avoid taking damage, and don't know how to fight, so they die a lot (especially thieves and Eles) and don't do squat. Or simply are playing too defensive builds that have little to no synergy, and don't work.
    I've carried so many of these people on the backs of decent groups that i really lost count. People complaining about the "elitists" should shut up and be thankful that they have someone to carry them through content. Because if you're doing 1k DPS on a DPS class with a decent support component, you're not going to be doing any better outsie.

    These are usually the same people who think they can jump bug flux bombs on Shattered Observatory and end up dropping them on top of Arkk occassionally or on Siax or puking over everybody or spawning a nightmare in 99CM because god forbid they move off the boss to do a mechanic and their precious meter drops. Same with anomalies on Arkk, you could just kill the kitten anomaly which takes less than 5 seconds to be safe instead of being a greedy kitten and trying to skip every phase and remove every challenge possible from an encounter by trying to brute force it with burst DPS. Then things go wrong when they find out not every group can burst efficiently and they throw a tantrum when said group can still pull off mechanics cleanly for a kill with no wipes.

    And yet, if there's a more efficient way of doing things by "brute forcing" through mechanics, why wouldn't you?

    Because it's

    a) A pug, which means less coordination than usual.

    One more reason to overcompensate and want better prepared players?

    b) Class comp dependent.

    To a point, there's 2, maybe 3 slots that need to be more or less fixed (the chrono, and then Druid and Banner warrior, which are both somewhat replaceable), the other slots are totally interchangeable. And even then you can replace those with other comps, but those are more risk prone, so less used. And actually need more fixed classes to compensate for the lack of the chrono.

    c)Totally irrelevant as to whether the content can be completed cleanly within a reasonable amount of time by your average PUG group.

    Is it? I don't find it irrelevant or unreasonable to expect that i don't need more than 1h to complete all fractals. And yet if i don't take a group with somewhat decent DPS and compositions, i'll very likely pass that mark, especially if i hit some of the longer fractals like SO.

    And that's really the problem. I remember when mirage was busted and people thought 13-14k DPS was ridiculously high, now they've overbuffed a bunch of power specs and now people are absurdly stupid about not bringing certain classes that would have passed muster back then because other classes now have more power creep.

    13-14k FPS busted? At PoF launch? LOL We were long past that mark.

    Back when revenant at 30-31k was considered really high in a world of 27-29k benchmarks, and now 29-30k is "trash" and gets you a torrent of whining and petty remarks by the kitten PUG who now deems any class that does not have a 33k+ benchmark as "terrible" and not wanted in a group.

    Well, you're right that there's some people that will be like that. For fractals i'll take anyone, really, and if it's going well, i'll happily carry those 1kdps guys. But if it isn't i'll start asking people below 10k DPS on ArcDPS if they can't do better. And depending on their response, a vote kick might follow.
    That's basically my benchmark for fractals, 10k DPS. Can't speak much for raids since i'm not a big expert on those since most of my guild mates left before those were a thing, and i think that's not the kind of content that's fun without a proper group. I've done several with pugs, and an allied guild, but then started having less time to play, and kinda stopped.

    It's these increasinly ramping requirements that are totally extraneous but somehow get treated as if they were vital or it's the end of the world.

    That's because the game itself lends itself to that power creep. For one, they keep adding the power creep because instead of making Elites interesting they choose to make them OP. Then it's a hard struggle to get the game to a decent balance, which previously was only starting to form when they released the new set of elites.
    Add to that the fact that Raids have Enrage Timers, which by themselves function as a pure DPS check, and you get the reason why this is such an issue.

    Well, that and because for half of this game's existence this was a basically everything goes, just play berserker gear and you'll be top notch. Now it started requiring a bit more effort and offering a bit more variety, and some people chafe.

    Sitting in a LFG waiting for 10 minutes or more for a BS warrior when taking another DPS in the amount of time you spent waiting for the BS warrior would have yielded the same clear time.

    Honestly... This sentence of yours is just demonstrative of my previous point. I've spent hours in a few other games waiting for a healer or a tank to be on so often, and now here we are complaining about a severely hyperbolic 10 minutes wait.
    I literally never had this happen to me in Fractals, and rarely in Raids. In fractals, i can do well without the banner guy, and usually play with one or two other friends who help cover the "required" slots, which helps. But even when solo, and outside CM (where i'm more careful, and also there's less people willing to go), i get a group going in usually under 5 minutes.

    1- Overcompensation for lack of coordination is already done through presumably the kill proof requirements. Class kitten as SC/qT themselves coined the term are an entirely different matter. The degree of overcompensation is also what's being discussed.

    Overcompensation for that lack of coordination is what i deem necessary. Not you. If i think that to compensate for coordination everyone must have a full Knights Reaper, that's what i'll ask of my group. It's not up to you to decide.
    Me, personally, i never, ever ask for KP. I prefer asking for people that know how to play, and have some common sense/experience, and if they fail to prove that through their performance then i act. I also prefer to take safer group comps as well. My way doesn't limit any player from joining, as long as they are willing to play required classes (which again, is usually just generic DPS, since, especially for harder content like CM and Raids i prefer to have those slots covered through me and my friends).
    Basically your way (KPs) is way more prejudiced than mine.

    2- I have run plenty of 3 DPS no BS/non-weaver stacking comps that clear fractals in less than 45 minutes.

    So have i. Depending on the fractals. Heck i've done full T4 runs with recomendeds in less than 30 minutes while carrying a friend of mine that had like 40 AP. But other times, i'll rather take a proper comp, especially in certain fractals, like uncategorized, SO, etc that are cleared MUCH faster by brute-forcing mechanics with healers and supports.

    In fact, often the greatest waste of time is when you form a group, get a scourge or revenant, and then unless your group already had a druid or chrono, the waiting times for that group to fill shoot up astronomically even with lax requirements. It's an infection that has seeped into PUG mentality just as much as when people would scoff at thieves, rangers, and necromancers in explorable dungeons.

    Again. I never took longer than 5 minutes to fill my group. I've never scoffed at any class in explorable dungeons. Again, i don't ask for meta builds, i ask for good performances. And now, thanks to DPS meters being allowed i can actually monitor mine and other people's performance based on actual numbers and not "feelings".

    3- Class comp dependency for bursting still exists. Case in point, you might have trouble skipping phases with a condi renegade or power dps chrono or condi engineer, but at the same time have pretty reasonable clearing and clean runs for each of those bosses that don't translate to more than maybe 1-2 minutes kill time difference for the CM's. It virtually hurts no one in these circumstances to just opt to do the mechanics, which is how the encounter was designed to begin with; instead of berating people because they did 12-14k DPS instead of bursting 20k+.

    Agreed. I usually prefer to do the mechanics, or at least partially do them, than brute-force. It might shave a few minutes to just do so, but i find it safer to do it "proper". BUT, i'm not going to rush to the forums to berate anyone for choosing to do so. And if my group wants to skip mechanics, i'll do that, because i know what my character can do. And when i don't, i ask.

    4- Mirage on your average PoF release CM were doing little more than 14k-15k DPS tops for most CM runs before people started whining about their easy damage, and for optimal runs of course weavers were already king. Point is, nobody whined about 13-14k DPS on CM's because outside weavers few people objected to 10-12k DPS by then.

    Sure... Yeah.. Your memory is fuzzy there mate, cause i easily recall a lot of 50k broken numbers from a few classes when PoF launched. And the average DPS benchmarks was already well into the 30K's back then.
    I still don't see anyone berating people for less than 30k dps in actual gameplay. Benchmarks are benchmarks. They're not supposed to be expected from everyone everywhere.
    I'll grant you, i haven't done a Fractal (or basically anything else) in like 2-3 months. But i don't think there would be such a drastic shift. But if that is happening everywhere, well that's nice, if people can do 30kdps solid, then the game surely progressed further into the holy broken game status.

    5- On the bare minimum, we agree. I tend to prefer a 12k DPS standard of performance for non-phase heavy fights (skorvald tends to depress the DPS of classes without snap burst a lot, and whoever gets to cream the adds first usually looks a ton better than the rest). Virtually every class spec can pull off 12k DPS. If they fail that test and land more in the 8-9k range, I whisper them the SC website at the end of the run. If they did considerably less, I usually just avoid them in future groups. I never go out of my way to humiliate people, however. Even when you carry a person, toxic aggressiveness is simply not admissible.

    Well, asking a person what build they're running, and mentioning they could probably improve is humiliating only to those without humility.

    6- Raid enrage timers are stupidly lax. They're almost nonexistent unless you have seriously screwed up mechanics and you have people in knights gear sneaked in. In all these years of raiding, and I have PuG'd a ton, I have NEVER wiped due to an enrage timer. The closest I've ever gotten was Gorseval.

    Of course you never wiped... Because when you hit that mark, people just GG.

    Hell, the hardest raid boss to do training runs in imo, Matthias, is still an extremely forgiving timer.

    People have obsessed over clear times long before DPS enrage timers existed. I suspect it's because the content is so relatively easier compared to FFXIV savage mode or WoW mythic's level of encounter complexity that since people clear the content so quickly, and there's little in terms of progression, they occupy their time instead with optimizing clear times so they can go make gold somewhere else since raiding is not particularly lucrative to begin with and even fractal CM's are hardly more lucrative than RIBA farms or spending similar amounts of time playing the AH.

    Yeah, there's a thing called speed runs, and people actually kind of compete with that. But that isn't usually what you do with PUGs. The thing about wanting to do content fast in pugs, is that, you've done that content 100's of times already, you just want to go ahead and be done with it. No one wants to do the same thing over and over again (well, some people do, but each one has their kinks).

    7- You may not have experienced it, but I have. Literally today as well after reset, where we filled a group at :45 and ended up running at :57 because the druid and chrono came in and saw no warrior, were told we would run without BS, and it became a game of dancing chairs as people came in, left, came in, left, came in, until finally we got a bunch that didn't care that a BS warrior would not join.

    Are you playing in NA? Because i've litterally NEVER have had anyone leaving because no warrior in Fractals.

    I have even carried out experiments where I swap the DPS comps in LFG to include any class that is not a weaver/guard/holo, and if a necro or revenant is in the group, wait times to fill go up substantially. Want to play power DPS chrono or even soulbeast? The moment people see two of the same class in LFG and it's not weavers or guardian, wait times also shoot up. Even in the case of having a thief in the group yields longer wait times than a full group of weaver/holo/guardian by far.

    Heck, i try to stay away from Elementalists and thieves in my fractals. Again, to each their own. I've failed more fractals from elementalists dying constantly and taking DPS away because people have to ress them than from Necromancers doing 1000DPS.

  • Dante.1763Dante.1763 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:
    Well if this is shaming then instead of saying anything i will kick those players now.

    Kick with a whisper as to why at least. Honestly i think that satisfies everything including the TOS by not addressing it in front of people.

    Amana Silentchild; My Main
    Ember Wandertooth; The Kingslayer, Kianda Redpaw; The Blazing Light
    Why GW is Called Guildwars

  • There has been a huge problem with the community with the so called 'dps elitists'. I run Arah dungeon on a semi-frequent basis and a lot of Arah is knowing the mechanics and working as a team to efficiently go through the dungeon on a good quick run. Often in LFG we will have what I like to call "COD players". Essentially, these people will come into a group and all they care about is killing. They ignore players and their team, run with DPS meters and will spill lots of derogatory comments and attack all other players even if they are the reason the team got killed. I ran into a Warrior who was going on about how much damage you dealt to the Giganticus Lupicus and started attacking the Druid in our team saying he wasn't matching his DPS and how he should 'kill' himself. I of course screenshotted the screen justifying the kick and got a replacement who actually worked as a team. A game is supposed to be fun which requires knowledge of mechanics especially for dungeons and raids, but destroying and attacking others is not a way to help others grow so that they may help you or others in the future.

  • @Dante.1763 said:

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:
    Well if this is shaming then instead of saying anything i will kick those players now.

    Kick with a whisper as to why at least. Honestly i think that satisfies everything including the TOS by not addressing it in front of people.

    And then you get a thread like this, the cycle will just repeat itself

  • Dante.1763Dante.1763 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Mini Crinny.6190 said:

    @Dante.1763 said:

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:
    Well if this is shaming then instead of saying anything i will kick those players now.

    Kick with a whisper as to why at least. Honestly i think that satisfies everything including the TOS by not addressing it in front of people.

    And then you get a thread like this, the cycle will just repeat itself

    Perhaps you might, Im just saying, id rather have somebody whisper me why they kicked me, than post numbers that even i dont get to see in a group setting.

    Amana Silentchild; My Main
    Ember Wandertooth; The Kingslayer, Kianda Redpaw; The Blazing Light
    Why GW is Called Guildwars

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dante.1763 said:

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:
    Well if this is shaming then instead of saying anything i will kick those players now.

    Kick with a whisper as to why at least. Honestly i think that satisfies everything including the TOS by not addressing it in front of people.

    Whispering is inefficient because you also need to inform the rest of your team why someone was kicked, unless the rest of the team is on voice chat.

  • Dante.1763Dante.1763 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Dante.1763 said:

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:
    Well if this is shaming then instead of saying anything i will kick those players now.

    Kick with a whisper as to why at least. Honestly i think that satisfies everything including the TOS by not addressing it in front of people.

    Whispering is inefficient because you also need to inform the rest of your team why someone was kicked, unless the rest of the team is on voice chat.

    I was almost certain that voice chat was mandatory for raids, i know all the groups ive been a part of do, even if its just to listen for calls, so i didnt account for that. I suppose thats the case?

    Amana Silentchild; My Main
    Ember Wandertooth; The Kingslayer, Kianda Redpaw; The Blazing Light
    Why GW is Called Guildwars

  • Zenith.7301Zenith.7301 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 19, 2018

    @ReaverKane.7598 said:

    @phs.6089 said:

    @ReaverKane.7598 said:

    These are usually the same people who think they can jump bug flux bombs on Shattered Observatory and end up dropping them on top of Arkk occassionally or on Siax or puking over everybody or spawning a nightmare in 99CM because god forbid they move off the boss to do a mechanic and their precious meter drops. Same with anomalies on Arkk, you could just kill the kitten anomaly which takes less than 5 seconds to be safe instead of being a greedy kitten and trying to skip every phase and remove every challenge possible from an encounter by trying to brute force it with burst DPS. Then things go wrong when they find out not every group can burst efficiently and they throw a tantrum when said group can still pull off mechanics cleanly for a kill with no wipes.

    And yet, if there's a more efficient way of doing things by "brute forcing" through mechanics, why wouldn't you?

    cus sometimes you wanna stop and smell the roses and cus most of the time those brutforcers juts to showoff their dps ignore anything and waste my time by wiping

    I smelled the roses the first 3-10 times through... Now i want to hold my breath and plow through the content in as little time as i can. If i choose to do so, and the majority of the community does so. I don't think that people that don't "feel like" pulling their own weight have no business telling me how to play.
    What you forget is that 90% of the people have completed the content more than once, and are just going through the motions, because the game requires you to farm. If you're late to the bus, it's ok, there's a lot of people willing to teach you how to. Heck i'm willing to bet anything that most of the "elitists" i know probably spent more hours trudging through content to teach new players how to do it than anyone that complains about elitists in the forums.
    How can i say this? Easy, if you're here complaining about people that do content efficiently, odds are you don't know how to do it yourself.

    @Belorn.2659 said:
    DPS, boon sharing, CC, heals, toughness checks, blocks, pushes, special action key, condition damage, boon strip, blue circles, red orbs, eggs, bombs, mushrooms, poison, reflects, portals, stacking, buttons, pulls, hands, black, dead, green circles, light, big orbs, shackles, soul split, enforces, 10%, swords, shields, lamp...

    Each and every one of those are critical to perform correctly in raiding. They are all mechanics, and DPS is just one among many. Failure will result in player death, lost time and frustration if continued for too long. Calling out players on any of those in voice or squad chat is not harassment in of itself. Playing a game means working within the constraints of the game mechanics, and raid is designed to have more mechanics than any other game mode.

    Harassment is not about which mechanic someone is failing at, but rather how people are calling out someone. Harassing someone about reflects in mathias, getting egged in gor, missing a green at dhuum, getting picked up by during CM, or low DPS is all the same from a game rule perspective. Harassment is not allowed, but calling out people for failing mechanics is. The distinction is in how it is done.

    Exactly! The issue is, lots of people will take any criticism of their infallible selves as harassment. I mean, if someone talked to me like OP's example... I'd probably take notice of my DPS and see what's failing or just tell him to stuff it cause i'm a support chrono ^_^ But i wouldn't think of it as harassment. Yet op clearly does. I think it's also a cultural and generational problem. Some people have incredibly thin skins, so thin i'm baffled how they manage to survive in the internet.

    @Zenith.7301 said:

    @ReaverKane.7598 said:

    @Zenith.7301 said:

    @ReaverKane.7598 said:

    @Deimos.4263 said:

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:
    Basically, you're asking whether ANet should punish people for being rude; they don't and they won't.

    They can and they should, at least according to their own ToS. You can inform a player their DPS is sub-par without being rude about it. It is possible.

    And yet, as polite as you are there's always people that will take any criticism as constructive as you make it, as harassment.

    @Zenith.7301 said:
    I mean, there's a difference of a person doing 3k DPS (which I don't even buy, that's just plain impossible unless you're playing a magi druid or minstrel chrono)

    Get a DPS meter... You'll be surprised. I've outdpsed "DPS" Necromancers, thieves and Elementalists on full Minstrel Chrono. There's a lot of people out there that don't know what they're doing.
    There's people that just copy the builds from the page, don't even read why the build works, or how. And then go do content and just don't do anything, because they don't know how their rotation works, don't know how to avoid taking damage, and don't know how to fight, so they die a lot (especially thieves and Eles) and don't do squat. Or simply are playing too defensive builds that have little to no synergy, and don't work.
    I've carried so many of these people on the backs of decent groups that i really lost count. People complaining about the "elitists" should shut up and be thankful that they have someone to carry them through content. Because if you're doing 1k DPS on a DPS class with a decent support component, you're not going to be doing any better outsie.

    These are usually the same people who think they can jump bug flux bombs on Shattered Observatory and end up dropping them on top of Arkk occassionally or on Siax or puking over everybody or spawning a nightmare in 99CM because god forbid they move off the boss to do a mechanic and their precious meter drops. Same with anomalies on Arkk, you could just kill the kitten anomaly which takes less than 5 seconds to be safe instead of being a greedy kitten and trying to skip every phase and remove every challenge possible from an encounter by trying to brute force it with burst DPS. Then things go wrong when they find out not every group can burst efficiently and they throw a tantrum when said group can still pull off mechanics cleanly for a kill with no wipes.

    And yet, if there's a more efficient way of doing things by "brute forcing" through mechanics, why wouldn't you?

    Because it's

    a) A pug, which means less coordination than usual.

    One more reason to overcompensate and want better prepared players?

    b) Class comp dependent.

    To a point, there's 2, maybe 3 slots that need to be more or less fixed (the chrono, and then Druid and Banner warrior, which are both somewhat replaceable), the other slots are totally interchangeable. And even then you can replace those with other comps, but those are more risk prone, so less used. And actually need more fixed classes to compensate for the lack of the chrono.

    c)Totally irrelevant as to whether the content can be completed cleanly within a reasonable amount of time by your average PUG group.

    Is it? I don't find it irrelevant or unreasonable to expect that i don't need more than 1h to complete all fractals. And yet if i don't take a group with somewhat decent DPS and compositions, i'll very likely pass that mark, especially if i hit some of the longer fractals like SO.

    And that's really the problem. I remember when mirage was busted and people thought 13-14k DPS was ridiculously high, now they've overbuffed a bunch of power specs and now people are absurdly stupid about not bringing certain classes that would have passed muster back then because other classes now have more power creep.

    13-14k FPS busted? At PoF launch? LOL We were long past that mark.

    Back when revenant at 30-31k was considered really high in a world of 27-29k benchmarks, and now 29-30k is "trash" and gets you a torrent of whining and petty remarks by the kitten PUG who now deems any class that does not have a 33k+ benchmark as "terrible" and not wanted in a group.

    Well, you're right that there's some people that will be like that. For fractals i'll take anyone, really, and if it's going well, i'll happily carry those 1kdps guys. But if it isn't i'll start asking people below 10k DPS on ArcDPS if they can't do better. And depending on their response, a vote kick might follow.
    That's basically my benchmark for fractals, 10k DPS. Can't speak much for raids since i'm not a big expert on those since most of my guild mates left before those were a thing, and i think that's not the kind of content that's fun without a proper group. I've done several with pugs, and an allied guild, but then started having less time to play, and kinda stopped.

    It's these increasinly ramping requirements that are totally extraneous but somehow get treated as if they were vital or it's the end of the world.

    That's because the game itself lends itself to that power creep. For one, they keep adding the power creep because instead of making Elites interesting they choose to make them OP. Then it's a hard struggle to get the game to a decent balance, which previously was only starting to form when they released the new set of elites.
    Add to that the fact that Raids have Enrage Timers, which by themselves function as a pure DPS check, and you get the reason why this is such an issue.

    Well, that and because for half of this game's existence this was a basically everything goes, just play berserker gear and you'll be top notch. Now it started requiring a bit more effort and offering a bit more variety, and some people chafe.

    Sitting in a LFG waiting for 10 minutes or more for a BS warrior when taking another DPS in the amount of time you spent waiting for the BS warrior would have yielded the same clear time.

    Honestly... This sentence of yours is just demonstrative of my previous point. I've spent hours in a few other games waiting for a healer or a tank to be on so often, and now here we are complaining about a severely hyperbolic 10 minutes wait.
    I literally never had this happen to me in Fractals, and rarely in Raids. In fractals, i can do well without the banner guy, and usually play with one or two other friends who help cover the "required" slots, which helps. But even when solo, and outside CM (where i'm more careful, and also there's less people willing to go), i get a group going in usually under 5 minutes.

    1- Overcompensation for lack of coordination is already done through presumably the kill proof requirements. Class kitten as SC/qT themselves coined the term are an entirely different matter. The degree of overcompensation is also what's being discussed.

    Overcompensation for that lack of coordination is what i deem necessary. Not you. If i think that to compensate for coordination everyone must have a full Knights Reaper, that's what i'll ask of my group. It's not up to you to decide.
    Me, personally, i never, ever ask for KP. I prefer asking for people that know how to play, and have some common sense/experience, and if they fail to prove that through their performance then i act. I also prefer to take safer group comps as well. My way doesn't limit any player from joining, as long as they are willing to play required classes (which again, is usually just generic DPS, since, especially for harder content like CM and Raids i prefer to have those slots covered through me and my friends).
    Basically your way (KPs) is way more prejudiced than mine.

    2- I have run plenty of 3 DPS no BS/non-weaver stacking comps that clear fractals in less than 45 minutes.

    So have i. Depending on the fractals. Heck i've done full T4 runs with recomendeds in less than 30 minutes while carrying a friend of mine that had like 40 AP. But other times, i'll rather take a proper comp, especially in certain fractals, like uncategorized, SO, etc that are cleared MUCH faster by brute-forcing mechanics with healers and supports.

    In fact, often the greatest waste of time is when you form a group, get a scourge or revenant, and then unless your group already had a druid or chrono, the waiting times for that group to fill shoot up astronomically even with lax requirements. It's an infection that has seeped into PUG mentality just as much as when people would scoff at thieves, rangers, and necromancers in explorable dungeons.

    Again. I never took longer than 5 minutes to fill my group. I've never scoffed at any class in explorable dungeons. Again, i don't ask for meta builds, i ask for good performances. And now, thanks to DPS meters being allowed i can actually monitor mine and other people's performance based on actual numbers and not "feelings".

    3- Class comp dependency for bursting still exists. Case in point, you might have trouble skipping phases with a condi renegade or power dps chrono or condi engineer, but at the same time have pretty reasonable clearing and clean runs for each of those bosses that don't translate to more than maybe 1-2 minutes kill time difference for the CM's. It virtually hurts no one in these circumstances to just opt to do the mechanics, which is how the encounter was designed to begin with; instead of berating people because they did 12-14k DPS instead of bursting 20k+.

    Agreed. I usually prefer to do the mechanics, or at least partially do them, than brute-force. It might shave a few minutes to just do so, but i find it safer to do it "proper". BUT, i'm not going to rush to the forums to berate anyone for choosing to do so. And if my group wants to skip mechanics, i'll do that, because i know what my character can do. And when i don't, i ask.

    4- Mirage on your average PoF release CM were doing little more than 14k-15k DPS tops for most CM runs before people started whining about their easy damage, and for optimal runs of course weavers were already king. Point is, nobody whined about 13-14k DPS on CM's because outside weavers few people objected to 10-12k DPS by then.

    Sure... Yeah.. Your memory is fuzzy there mate, cause i easily recall a lot of 50k broken numbers from a few classes when PoF launched. And the average DPS benchmarks was already well into the 30K's back then.
    I still don't see anyone berating people for less than 30k dps in actual gameplay. Benchmarks are benchmarks. They're not supposed to be expected from everyone everywhere.
    I'll grant you, i haven't done a Fractal (or basically anything else) in like 2-3 months. But i don't think there would be such a drastic shift. But if that is happening everywhere, well that's nice, if people can do 30kdps solid, then the game surely progressed further into the holy broken game status.

    5- On the bare minimum, we agree. I tend to prefer a 12k DPS standard of performance for non-phase heavy fights (skorvald tends to depress the DPS of classes without snap burst a lot, and whoever gets to cream the adds first usually looks a ton better than the rest). Virtually every class spec can pull off 12k DPS. If they fail that test and land more in the 8-9k range, I whisper them the SC website at the end of the run. If they did considerably less, I usually just avoid them in future groups. I never go out of my way to humiliate people, however. Even when you carry a person, toxic aggressiveness is simply not admissible.

    Well, asking a person what build they're running, and mentioning they could probably improve is humiliating only to those without humility.

    6- Raid enrage timers are stupidly lax. They're almost nonexistent unless you have seriously screwed up mechanics and you have people in knights gear sneaked in. In all these years of raiding, and I have PuG'd a ton, I have NEVER wiped due to an enrage timer. The closest I've ever gotten was Gorseval.

    Of course you never wiped... Because when you hit that mark, people just GG.

    Hell, the hardest raid boss to do training runs in imo, Matthias, is still an extremely forgiving timer.

    People have obsessed over clear times long before DPS enrage timers existed. I suspect it's because the content is so relatively easier compared to FFXIV savage mode or WoW mythic's level of encounter complexity that since people clear the content so quickly, and there's little in terms of progression, they occupy their time instead with optimizing clear times so they can go make gold somewhere else since raiding is not particularly lucrative to begin with and even fractal CM's are hardly more lucrative than RIBA farms or spending similar amounts of time playing the AH.

    Yeah, there's a thing called speed runs, and people actually kind of compete with that. But that isn't usually what you do with PUGs. The thing about wanting to do content fast in pugs, is that, you've done that content 100's of times already, you just want to go ahead and be done with it. No one wants to do the same thing over and over again (well, some people do, but each one has their kinks).

    7- You may not have experienced it, but I have. Literally today as well after reset, where we filled a group at :45 and ended up running at :57 because the druid and chrono came in and saw no warrior, were told we would run without BS, and it became a game of dancing chairs as people came in, left, came in, left, came in, until finally we got a bunch that didn't care that a BS warrior would not join.

    Are you playing in NA? Because i've litterally NEVER have had anyone leaving because no warrior in Fractals.

    I have even carried out experiments where I swap the DPS comps in LFG to include any class that is not a weaver/guard/holo, and if a necro or revenant is in the group, wait times to fill go up substantially. Want to play power DPS chrono or even soulbeast? The moment people see two of the same class in LFG and it's not weavers or guardian, wait times also shoot up. Even in the case of having a thief in the group yields longer wait times than a full group of weaver/holo/guardian by far.

    Heck, i try to stay away from Elementalists and thieves in my fractals. Again, to each their own. I've failed more fractals from elementalists dying constantly and taking DPS away because people have to ress them than from Necromancers doing 1000DPS.

    Yes, NA. Yes, game of dancing chairs.

    No, I don't dictate to other groups what they should require. Which why, if you bothered to read my initial post, I mentioned that despite making my own groups or joining lax low essence runs, I've had some people still come in with entitlement and their preconceived notions of how groups should be run even when they themselves had the option to join a 250+ essence "BS/DRUID/CHRONO/WEAVERX3 ONLY" instead of bringing their kitten to other groups.

    It's PUG mentality, people behave like sheeple and often want to shame others for not following their preconceived notions of what a group should have.

    The whole point of LFG is to have freedom to make your own groups, but when people come in and despite clear descriptions in the LFG they feel empowered to raise a stink, and the outcome is to heavily delay your run by having to kick them and wait for a guy who doesn't mind on missing out on one of the CM boss kills, that's a kitten problem. And it should be reportable behavior that gets actioned just as much as people who use cheat links to fake KP, etc.

    If we have to replace someone in the middle of artsariv because he's being passive aggressive and trash talking people and then understandably other people don't want to join a 100CM where they miss out on one of the boss's rewards, then there should be consequences for that kind of behavior.

    It's one thing to offer suggestions for improvement ("hey, stop using focus 4 to pull the adds to Siax during last laugh affix; it screws the group over and makes CC harder"); it's another to place a target marker on a member of the group and say "the carry was heavy". Games should absolutely not tolerate adults behaving like petty brats, ever.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 19, 2018

    Imo if you're running DPS groups you need to make it clear in the LFG.
    I've joined these groups before and been criticized despite the LFG not specifying DPS.. or even experienced.
    Experienced can mean a lot of things to different people, some may think experienced means max DPS etc but to others it can mean as little as knowing the content or having beaten it a few times.

    If you want DPS then specific it as a DPS run.

    That said if it's so important to people to have the optimial DPS for the content they want to play then form a private group..
    Using the LFG is always going to put you at the whim of pugs and you can't force them to change their build and gear because it's not in your opinion good enough.
    Not everyone plays the same way and most people don't care about maxing their DPS.. because they never need to and they really don't care if a battle takes them 30 seconds longer to finish.

    Shaming them and criticizing them for it is only going to result in you getting reported for abuse or in my case I'll simply block those players and never play with them again regardless of how good the group was, I've no tolerance for that kind of elitism.. specially in content I can solo if need be.

    End of the day nobody can dictate how others play nor do they have any right to.
    There's more than enough ways to get the kind of group you want without being mean to other players.. specially when those players did nothing wrong and probably made an honest mistake when they joined your LFG.. or maybe they didn't and it was you that made the mistake and overlooked the description.
    It happens.. I know from experience.

  • Nokaru.7831Nokaru.7831 Member ✭✭
    edited November 19, 2018

    @HnRkLnXqZ.1870 said:
    Are players allowed to shame others for their DPS in /say, /party, /squad, /team, /map, /whisper ... etc. with the use of the data they receive from a dps-meter?

    In a public space (/say, /team, /map) where you have less control over who you interact with I'd hope that reporting toxic and rude players would get them punished. Someone can just as easily be lying about accusations like that. In a private space (party, guild, squad) it's a bit different since you chose to play with those people thus the rules aren't as strict. It's recommended you just leave parties like that. If someone is being rude and harassing you in /whisper, it should absolutely be reported if you feel harassed by it.

    For everyone scratching their head about what DPS meters has to do with it, it probably is because it's a policy that FFXIV has. They allow memory-reading DPS meters but they have an absolute no-tolerance policy towards shaming people with that information in chat. If you said, "lul ur dps sux, gtfo trash" and kicked them, you would very likely be banned for it.

  • lodjur.1284lodjur.1284 Member ✭✭✭

    @HnRkLnXqZ.1870 said:
    Are players allowed to shame others for their DPS in /say, /party, /squad, /team, /map, /whisper ... etc. with the use of the data they receive from a dps-meter?

    With reference to Guild Wars 2 Rules of Conduct:

    1. While playing Guild Wars 2, you must respect the rights of others and their rights to play and enjoy the Game. To this end, you may not defraud, harass, threaten, embarrass or cause distress and/or unwanted attention to other players. This includes posting insulting, offensive, or abusive comments about players, repeatedly sending unwanted messages, reporting players maliciously, attacking a player based on race, sexual orientation, religion, heritage, etc. Hate speech is not tolerated.

    Do the Rules of Conduct apply to this special situation, or is there a rule that allows this behavior?

    Example:
    "Player X what are you doing? Your DPS is ridiculously low? Seriously 3k? Are you playing on support? The thief over there does 13k!"

    Allowed or not?

    No difference than saying they're stupid for using 1h Sword on Spellbreaker in PvE or similar. That the data is obtained through a dps meter has nothing to do with it. Things should always be kept civil but kicking while calmly and in a friendly tone explaining to them that it's because they're an anchor isn't really harassing.

    Ögonen omges av vita och svarta penseldrag som gör att de ser större ut än vad de egentligen är. Baksidan av lodjurets öron kantas av svart päls som slutar i den karaktäristiska tofsen högst upp på örat. Lodjurets svans är kortare än de flesta andra kattdjurs.

  • @PolarTitan.8519 said:
    There has been a huge problem with the community with the so called 'dps elitists'. I run Arah dungeon on a semi-frequent basis and a lot of Arah is knowing the mechanics and working as a team to efficiently go through the dungeon on a good quick run. Often in LFG we will have what I like to call "COD players". Essentially, these people will come into a group and all they care about is killing. They ignore players and their team, run with DPS meters and will spill lots of derogatory comments and attack all other players even if they are the reason the team got killed. I ran into a Warrior who was going on about how much damage you dealt to the Giganticus Lupicus and started attacking the Druid in our team saying he wasn't matching his DPS and how he should 'kill' himself. I of course screenshotted the screen justifying the kick and got a replacement who actually worked as a team. A game is supposed to be fun which requires knowledge of mechanics especially for dungeons and raids, but destroying and attacking others is not a way to help others grow so that they may help you or others in the future.

    Hold up! You get people actually using the chat in Arah?
    Man, everytime i pug it there are 1 or 2 people failing to skip and every single time i say that i portal them they ignore me, wipe for 3 or 4 more times during the skip and leave without using the chat once since they joined.
    Pugging Arah is so frustrating...

  • Noha.3749Noha.3749 Member ✭✭✭

    If someone calls outin partychat or whispers that you are doing terrible dps and need to up it to stick around that should be fine.

    If someone starts telling you you suck buttcheeks at dpsing and should go dig a grave or eat a cookie or something, now that, that wouldn´t be fine.

  • Zunki.3916Zunki.3916 Member ✭✭✭

    I didn't read all but it's very easy to me:
    Enrage timers are boss mechanics. If you don't do your part to beat the enrage timer you fundamentally don't understand the mechanic of the encounter, therefore telling you this should be fine. It's the same as writign "you forgot to throw that bomb" or "we stack on the boss". It's talking about how you do the encounter.

    This applies only if you are a dps of course.

    Viable != Optimal

    Not viable = You only get carried, 10 players with a build as "viable as yours" can't properly do it.

  • Talindra.4958Talindra.4958 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Wait a second...... So you are saying someone want to play dps has no idea he is doing only 3k dps ... this guy needs to join a training guild to learn about what he wants to play and how. If he wants to do DPs role and does only 3k DPs, that's quite rude to everyone in the group... Try other role instead like support if DPs isn't his thing. I'm not a DPs person so I don't really play that.

    Death is Energy [DIE] in EU
    Envoy's Herald, CoZ, VitV, DD, SS, The Eternal, LNHB, Champion Magus, Champion Phantom, Wondrous Achiever etc.

  • if you arent performing why shouldnt that be pointed out? sounds like someone just wants to get carried.

  • borgs.6103borgs.6103 Member ✭✭✭

    You probably deserved the shaming and can't handle the truth so you have to seek affirmation from enablers.

    Apathy is death.

  • yann.1946yann.1946 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dabrixmgp.4758 said:
    if you arent performing why shouldnt that be pointed out? sounds like someone just wants to get carried.

    @borgs.6103 said:
    You probably deserved the shaming and can't handle the truth so you have to seek affirmation from enablers.

    Their is a difference between saying somebody is under performing an calling somebody names.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 22, 2018

    @yann.1946 said:

    @Dabrixmgp.4758 said:
    if you arent performing why shouldnt that be pointed out? sounds like someone just wants to get carried.

    @borgs.6103 said:
    You probably deserved the shaming and can't handle the truth so you have to seek affirmation from enablers.

    Their is a difference between saying somebody is under performing an calling somebody names.

    This, let's keep things in perspective please. While I am a strong advocate of "pull your weight", personal attacks, harassment or over the top elitism resulting in such attacks have no place in this game or any where. That's plain kitten behavior.

  • Nimon.7840Nimon.7840 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Linken.6345 said:
    Pointing out that your underpreforiming is shaming now, were have the world gone.
    Start your own squad/parties with no dps meters in lfg and play with like minded people mate.

    It always depends, how you are saying it.

    If you are saying: hey you piece of .... Do freaking DPS. And don't play like an idiot.

    I'd say this would be against the rules.

    But if you are like: hey, your DPS is pretty low. The profession you are playing has bigger potential and we need the extra damage for the boss. Please try to do the rotation better.

    Then I'd say this is totally fine.

  • Turin.6921Turin.6921 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 22, 2018

    @HnRkLnXqZ.1870 said:
    Example:
    "Player X what are you doing? Your DPS is ridiculously low? Seriously 3k? Are you playing on support? The thief over there does 13k!"

    Allowed or not?

    The example you have given is just mildly rude about a situation that is actually real. It does not clearly creates anything that may count as a violation of the "you may not defraud, harass, threaten, embarrass or cause distress and/or unwanted attention to other players" rules.

    If the message was sth like "If you do not do better i will kill you" or sth like "look at this clown doing less dps than the support". Then yes that is a violation. What you posted is not.

  • Its matters how the victim feel is harrasment some are more sensetive

  • Turin.6921Turin.6921 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 22, 2018

    @Laila Lightness.8742 said:
    Its matters how the victim feel is harrasment some are more sensetive

    This is not how things work. Anet support is making the end decision of what is harassment and what is not. No matter how you personally feel you have to make a case to them and convince them why the act that made you feel that way objectively justifies them to take action (unless of course it is self-evident from their side). Anet is setting the standards of what is good or bad behavior (usually factoring their ideas, community feeling , common sense etc). Not your personal feelings.

    If i feel harassed by some saying hello to me, even if my feeling is genuine, Anet support will never act upon it.

  • Henry.5713Henry.5713 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Asking the support to act based on the feelings of the most sensitive is like asking the balance team to change things according to the wishes of the one-handed or even those without arms. There obviously needs to be a line and it is up to ArenaNet to decide on where to put that line.

    Progress isn't made by early risers. It's made by lazy men trying to find easier ways to do something. ~ Robert Heinlein

  • @Laila Lightness.8742 said:
    Its matters how the victim feel is harrasment some are more sensetive

    No, sorry to say it doesn't matter. Catering to extreme outliers is not good policy. You set rules and boundaries based on how a reasonable person would react/feel. There's a reason that courts use a "reasonable person" rule in criminal and civil cases rather than "most extreme example" rule.

  • ReaverKane.7598ReaverKane.7598 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Zenith.7301 said:

    @ReaverKane.7598 said:

    @phs.6089 said:

    @ReaverKane.7598 said:

    These are usually the same people who think they can jump bug flux bombs on Shattered Observatory and end up dropping them on top of Arkk occassionally or on Siax or puking over everybody or spawning a nightmare in 99CM because god forbid they move off the boss to do a mechanic and their precious meter drops. Same with anomalies on Arkk, you could just kill the kitten anomaly which takes less than 5 seconds to be safe instead of being a greedy kitten and trying to skip every phase and remove every challenge possible from an encounter by trying to brute force it with burst DPS. Then things go wrong when they find out not every group can burst efficiently and they throw a tantrum when said group can still pull off mechanics cleanly for a kill with no wipes.

    And yet, if there's a more efficient way of doing things by "brute forcing" through mechanics, why wouldn't you?

    cus sometimes you wanna stop and smell the roses and cus most of the time those brutforcers juts to showoff their dps ignore anything and waste my time by wiping

    I smelled the roses the first 3-10 times through... Now i want to hold my breath and plow through the content in as little time as i can. If i choose to do so, and the majority of the community does so. I don't think that people that don't "feel like" pulling their own weight have no business telling me how to play.
    What you forget is that 90% of the people have completed the content more than once, and are just going through the motions, because the game requires you to farm. If you're late to the bus, it's ok, there's a lot of people willing to teach you how to. Heck i'm willing to bet anything that most of the "elitists" i know probably spent more hours trudging through content to teach new players how to do it than anyone that complains about elitists in the forums.
    How can i say this? Easy, if you're here complaining about people that do content efficiently, odds are you don't know how to do it yourself.

    @Belorn.2659 said:
    DPS, boon sharing, CC, heals, toughness checks, blocks, pushes, special action key, condition damage, boon strip, blue circles, red orbs, eggs, bombs, mushrooms, poison, reflects, portals, stacking, buttons, pulls, hands, black, dead, green circles, light, big orbs, shackles, soul split, enforces, 10%, swords, shields, lamp...

    Each and every one of those are critical to perform correctly in raiding. They are all mechanics, and DPS is just one among many. Failure will result in player death, lost time and frustration if continued for too long. Calling out players on any of those in voice or squad chat is not harassment in of itself. Playing a game means working within the constraints of the game mechanics, and raid is designed to have more mechanics than any other game mode.

    Harassment is not about which mechanic someone is failing at, but rather how people are calling out someone. Harassing someone about reflects in mathias, getting egged in gor, missing a green at dhuum, getting picked up by during CM, or low DPS is all the same from a game rule perspective. Harassment is not allowed, but calling out people for failing mechanics is. The distinction is in how it is done.

    Exactly! The issue is, lots of people will take any criticism of their infallible selves as harassment. I mean, if someone talked to me like OP's example... I'd probably take notice of my DPS and see what's failing or just tell him to stuff it cause i'm a support chrono ^_^ But i wouldn't think of it as harassment. Yet op clearly does. I think it's also a cultural and generational problem. Some people have incredibly thin skins, so thin i'm baffled how they manage to survive in the internet.

    @Zenith.7301 said:

    @ReaverKane.7598 said:

    @Zenith.7301 said:

    @ReaverKane.7598 said:

    @Deimos.4263 said:

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:
    Basically, you're asking whether ANet should punish people for being rude; they don't and they won't.

    They can and they should, at least according to their own ToS. You can inform a player their DPS is sub-par without being rude about it. It is possible.

    And yet, as polite as you are there's always people that will take any criticism as constructive as you make it, as harassment.

    @Zenith.7301 said:
    I mean, there's a difference of a person doing 3k DPS (which I don't even buy, that's just plain impossible unless you're playing a magi druid or minstrel chrono)

    Get a DPS meter... You'll be surprised. I've outdpsed "DPS" Necromancers, thieves and Elementalists on full Minstrel Chrono. There's a lot of people out there that don't know what they're doing.
    There's people that just copy the builds from the page, don't even read why the build works, or how. And then go do content and just don't do anything, because they don't know how their rotation works, don't know how to avoid taking damage, and don't know how to fight, so they die a lot (especially thieves and Eles) and don't do squat. Or simply are playing too defensive builds that have little to no synergy, and don't work.
    I've carried so many of these people on the backs of decent groups that i really lost count. People complaining about the "elitists" should shut up and be thankful that they have someone to carry them through content. Because if you're doing 1k DPS on a DPS class with a decent support component, you're not going to be doing any better outsie.

    These are usually the same people who think they can jump bug flux bombs on Shattered Observatory and end up dropping them on top of Arkk occassionally or on Siax or puking over everybody or spawning a nightmare in 99CM because god forbid they move off the boss to do a mechanic and their precious meter drops. Same with anomalies on Arkk, you could just kill the kitten anomaly which takes less than 5 seconds to be safe instead of being a greedy kitten and trying to skip every phase and remove every challenge possible from an encounter by trying to brute force it with burst DPS. Then things go wrong when they find out not every group can burst efficiently and they throw a tantrum when said group can still pull off mechanics cleanly for a kill with no wipes.

    And yet, if there's a more efficient way of doing things by "brute forcing" through mechanics, why wouldn't you?

    Because it's

    a) A pug, which means less coordination than usual.

    One more reason to overcompensate and want better prepared players?

    b) Class comp dependent.

    To a point, there's 2, maybe 3 slots that need to be more or less fixed (the chrono, and then Druid and Banner warrior, which are both somewhat replaceable), the other slots are totally interchangeable. And even then you can replace those with other comps, but those are more risk prone, so less used. And actually need more fixed classes to compensate for the lack of the chrono.

    c)Totally irrelevant as to whether the content can be completed cleanly within a reasonable amount of time by your average PUG group.

    Is it? I don't find it irrelevant or unreasonable to expect that i don't need more than 1h to complete all fractals. And yet if i don't take a group with somewhat decent DPS and compositions, i'll very likely pass that mark, especially if i hit some of the longer fractals like SO.

    And that's really the problem. I remember when mirage was busted and people thought 13-14k DPS was ridiculously high, now they've overbuffed a bunch of power specs and now people are absurdly stupid about not bringing certain classes that would have passed muster back then because other classes now have more power creep.

    13-14k FPS busted? At PoF launch? LOL We were long past that mark.

    Back when revenant at 30-31k was considered really high in a world of 27-29k benchmarks, and now 29-30k is "trash" and gets you a torrent of whining and petty remarks by the kitten PUG who now deems any class that does not have a 33k+ benchmark as "terrible" and not wanted in a group.

    Well, you're right that there's some people that will be like that. For fractals i'll take anyone, really, and if it's going well, i'll happily carry those 1kdps guys. But if it isn't i'll start asking people below 10k DPS on ArcDPS if they can't do better. And depending on their response, a vote kick might follow.
    That's basically my benchmark for fractals, 10k DPS. Can't speak much for raids since i'm not a big expert on those since most of my guild mates left before those were a thing, and i think that's not the kind of content that's fun without a proper group. I've done several with pugs, and an allied guild, but then started having less time to play, and kinda stopped.

    It's these increasinly ramping requirements that are totally extraneous but somehow get treated as if they were vital or it's the end of the world.

    That's because the game itself lends itself to that power creep. For one, they keep adding the power creep because instead of making Elites interesting they choose to make them OP. Then it's a hard struggle to get the game to a decent balance, which previously was only starting to form when they released the new set of elites.
    Add to that the fact that Raids have Enrage Timers, which by themselves function as a pure DPS check, and you get the reason why this is such an issue.

    Well, that and because for half of this game's existence this was a basically everything goes, just play berserker gear and you'll be top notch. Now it started requiring a bit more effort and offering a bit more variety, and some people chafe.

    Sitting in a LFG waiting for 10 minutes or more for a BS warrior when taking another DPS in the amount of time you spent waiting for the BS warrior would have yielded the same clear time.

    Honestly... This sentence of yours is just demonstrative of my previous point. I've spent hours in a few other games waiting for a healer or a tank to be on so often, and now here we are complaining about a severely hyperbolic 10 minutes wait.
    I literally never had this happen to me in Fractals, and rarely in Raids. In fractals, i can do well without the banner guy, and usually play with one or two other friends who help cover the "required" slots, which helps. But even when solo, and outside CM (where i'm more careful, and also there's less people willing to go), i get a group going in usually under 5 minutes.

    1- Overcompensation for lack of coordination is already done through presumably the kill proof requirements. Class kitten as SC/qT themselves coined the term are an entirely different matter. The degree of overcompensation is also what's being discussed.

    Overcompensation for that lack of coordination is what i deem necessary. Not you. If i think that to compensate for coordination everyone must have a full Knights Reaper, that's what i'll ask of my group. It's not up to you to decide.
    Me, personally, i never, ever ask for KP. I prefer asking for people that know how to play, and have some common sense/experience, and if they fail to prove that through their performance then i act. I also prefer to take safer group comps as well. My way doesn't limit any player from joining, as long as they are willing to play required classes (which again, is usually just generic DPS, since, especially for harder content like CM and Raids i prefer to have those slots covered through me and my friends).
    Basically your way (KPs) is way more prejudiced than mine.

    2- I have run plenty of 3 DPS no BS/non-weaver stacking comps that clear fractals in less than 45 minutes.

    So have i. Depending on the fractals. Heck i've done full T4 runs with recomendeds in less than 30 minutes while carrying a friend of mine that had like 40 AP. But other times, i'll rather take a proper comp, especially in certain fractals, like uncategorized, SO, etc that are cleared MUCH faster by brute-forcing mechanics with healers and supports.

    In fact, often the greatest waste of time is when you form a group, get a scourge or revenant, and then unless your group already had a druid or chrono, the waiting times for that group to fill shoot up astronomically even with lax requirements. It's an infection that has seeped into PUG mentality just as much as when people would scoff at thieves, rangers, and necromancers in explorable dungeons.

    Again. I never took longer than 5 minutes to fill my group. I've never scoffed at any class in explorable dungeons. Again, i don't ask for meta builds, i ask for good performances. And now, thanks to DPS meters being allowed i can actually monitor mine and other people's performance based on actual numbers and not "feelings".

    3- Class comp dependency for bursting still exists. Case in point, you might have trouble skipping phases with a condi renegade or power dps chrono or condi engineer, but at the same time have pretty reasonable clearing and clean runs for each of those bosses that don't translate to more than maybe 1-2 minutes kill time difference for the CM's. It virtually hurts no one in these circumstances to just opt to do the mechanics, which is how the encounter was designed to begin with; instead of berating people because they did 12-14k DPS instead of bursting 20k+.

    Agreed. I usually prefer to do the mechanics, or at least partially do them, than brute-force. It might shave a few minutes to just do so, but i find it safer to do it "proper". BUT, i'm not going to rush to the forums to berate anyone for choosing to do so. And if my group wants to skip mechanics, i'll do that, because i know what my character can do. And when i don't, i ask.

    4- Mirage on your average PoF release CM were doing little more than 14k-15k DPS tops for most CM runs before people started whining about their easy damage, and for optimal runs of course weavers were already king. Point is, nobody whined about 13-14k DPS on CM's because outside weavers few people objected to 10-12k DPS by then.

    Sure... Yeah.. Your memory is fuzzy there mate, cause i easily recall a lot of 50k broken numbers from a few classes when PoF launched. And the average DPS benchmarks was already well into the 30K's back then.
    I still don't see anyone berating people for less than 30k dps in actual gameplay. Benchmarks are benchmarks. They're not supposed to be expected from everyone everywhere.
    I'll grant you, i haven't done a Fractal (or basically anything else) in like 2-3 months. But i don't think there would be such a drastic shift. But if that is happening everywhere, well that's nice, if people can do 30kdps solid, then the game surely progressed further into the holy broken game status.

    5- On the bare minimum, we agree. I tend to prefer a 12k DPS standard of performance for non-phase heavy fights (skorvald tends to depress the DPS of classes without snap burst a lot, and whoever gets to cream the adds first usually looks a ton better than the rest). Virtually every class spec can pull off 12k DPS. If they fail that test and land more in the 8-9k range, I whisper them the SC website at the end of the run. If they did considerably less, I usually just avoid them in future groups. I never go out of my way to humiliate people, however. Even when you carry a person, toxic aggressiveness is simply not admissible.

    Well, asking a person what build they're running, and mentioning they could probably improve is humiliating only to those without humility.

    6- Raid enrage timers are stupidly lax. They're almost nonexistent unless you have seriously screwed up mechanics and you have people in knights gear sneaked in. In all these years of raiding, and I have PuG'd a ton, I have NEVER wiped due to an enrage timer. The closest I've ever gotten was Gorseval.

    Of course you never wiped... Because when you hit that mark, people just GG.

    Hell, the hardest raid boss to do training runs in imo, Matthias, is still an extremely forgiving timer.

    People have obsessed over clear times long before DPS enrage timers existed. I suspect it's because the content is so relatively easier compared to FFXIV savage mode or WoW mythic's level of encounter complexity that since people clear the content so quickly, and there's little in terms of progression, they occupy their time instead with optimizing clear times so they can go make gold somewhere else since raiding is not particularly lucrative to begin with and even fractal CM's are hardly more lucrative than RIBA farms or spending similar amounts of time playing the AH.

    Yeah, there's a thing called speed runs, and people actually kind of compete with that. But that isn't usually what you do with PUGs. The thing about wanting to do content fast in pugs, is that, you've done that content 100's of times already, you just want to go ahead and be done with it. No one wants to do the same thing over and over again (well, some people do, but each one has their kinks).

    7- You may not have experienced it, but I have. Literally today as well after reset, where we filled a group at :45 and ended up running at :57 because the druid and chrono came in and saw no warrior, were told we would run without BS, and it became a game of dancing chairs as people came in, left, came in, left, came in, until finally we got a bunch that didn't care that a BS warrior would not join.

    Are you playing in NA? Because i've litterally NEVER have had anyone leaving because no warrior in Fractals.

    I have even carried out experiments where I swap the DPS comps in LFG to include any class that is not a weaver/guard/holo, and if a necro or revenant is in the group, wait times to fill go up substantially. Want to play power DPS chrono or even soulbeast? The moment people see two of the same class in LFG and it's not weavers or guardian, wait times also shoot up. Even in the case of having a thief in the group yields longer wait times than a full group of weaver/holo/guardian by far.

    Heck, i try to stay away from Elementalists and thieves in my fractals. Again, to each their own. I've failed more fractals from elementalists dying constantly and taking DPS away because people have to ress them than from Necromancers doing 1000DPS.

    Yes, NA. Yes, game of dancing chairs.

    That explains your problem... In the EU, apparently people are more civilized, and since the pop is larger there's less wait times.

    No, I don't dictate to other groups what they should require. Which why, if you bothered to read my initial post, I mentioned that despite making my own groups or joining lax low essence runs, I've had some people still come in with entitlement and their preconceived notions of how groups should be run even when they themselves had the option to join a 250+ essence "BS/DRUID/CHRONO/WEAVERX3 ONLY" instead of bringing their kitten to other groups.

    It's PUG mentality, people behave like sheeple and often want to shame others for not following their preconceived notions of what a group should have.

    It's more common sense. Being "unique" and "thinking outside the box" more often than not simply boils down to being wrong. Just look at all the "unique" people in the conspiracy theory groups.
    The game has matured enough for people to have recognized a pattern of performance. That dictates a lot, if you look at someone's DPS and it's below 10k, that person is surely not pulling their weight (exceptions made for support builds).
    Most of the time, in my experience, except for the support slots, which whether you like it or not, will speed up runs, people are very lax about the DPS slots. With the unspoken agreement that you're expected to have at least a decent DPS.
    It's like when you meet someone for the first time, there's nothing pre-arranged, there's no sign above his head saying "shake my hand, don't punch my face", and yet you shake that person's hand, and won't punch his face.
    Same thing in the PUG, the majority of people recognize that to do their part, they either have to do a decent support build, and provide boons/healing to the group, or have enough DPS to be a proper contribution.
    Of course there's the "special" and "unique" players that rather not contribute to the group, and make a statement about how "unique" they are. Of course, they underperform and get kicked. Because, matey, you can have the most absurd build in the world, but if it does 15k DPS consistently no one will annoy you about it, if anything they'll want to know how it works.

    The thing is, GuildWars 2 for all it's variety, if you're actually trying to maximize the efficiency of your build, and you're half decent at theory crafting, you'll always land on a build that's at least very similar to a "meta" build. Because there's only so many combinations of traits, stats and skills that can put out that much DPS. Sure you might have a different trait or two, or even a different trait line, you might run a slightly different stat set, different runes, sigils, etc. But if you're a serious theory crafter and you're aiming to maximize DPS, you'll usually have the same major points on your build as the "meta" ones. It's not meta because one guy decided "this is meta now", you know?

    The whole point of LFG is to have freedom to make your own groups, but when people come in and despite clear descriptions in the LFG they feel empowered to raise a stink, and the outcome is to heavily delay your run by having to kick them and wait for a guy who doesn't mind on missing out on one of the CM boss kills, that's a kitten problem. And it should be reportable behavior that gets actioned just as much as people who use cheat links to fake KP, etc.

    Again, there's a point where you stop being "casual" and "relaxed" and you start being a leecher, just progressing from other people's efforts. And, no matter what it says in the group's description (unless it's "i want to leech of of you") people have the right to complain about someone underperforming.
    A few words in a LFG title don't give you power over someone's time or actions.

    If we have to replace someone in the middle of artsariv because he's being passive aggressive and trash talking people and then understandably other people don't want to join a 100CM where they miss out on one of the boss's rewards, then there should be consequences for that kind of behavior.

    Yeah, you kicked him out of the group, now he's going to have to repeat the same stuff again.

    It's one thing to offer suggestions for improvement ("hey, stop using focus 4 to pull the adds to Siax during last laugh affix; it screws the group over and makes CC harder"); it's another to place a target marker on a member of the group and say "the carry was heavy". Games should absolutely not tolerate adults behaving like petty brats, ever.

    Why not? If i'm carrying you, why can't i point that out?
    Again some people don't realize they are not doing well, because, thanks to people behaving like you seen in this thread, blaming DPS meters for all the evils in the world, they don't use them. That means that if you don't point it out, they won't ever realize they're just leeching of groups.
    Are there politer ways to do that? Sure.
    But then again, there's also a polite way to not go into a group and hope they carry you through CM content. That is by practising, and maybe get ArcDPS, or test your rotations in the raid golem. So you can tell if you're doing well.
    Assigning yourself a "PASS" because it "feels" that you're performing well, doesn't mean you're actually doing so.

    @Teratus.2859 Most people don't run "DPS" groups. Like i said before, there's more or less a consensus on what is a good performance. Usually people will use a number between 8-15k DPS, i look for 10kDPS in DPS classes, but won't say anything if you're doing 8-9k, especially in Banner Warriors, who usually lose some damage boosts from having to slot in banners. If you're running under that, unless you're on a support build, or simply not contributing to the group, regardless of the scope.

    @yann.1946 said:

    @Dabrixmgp.4758 said:
    if you arent performing why shouldnt that be pointed out? sounds like someone just wants to get carried.

    @borgs.6103 said:
    You probably deserved the shaming and can't handle the truth so you have to seek affirmation from enablers.

    Their is a difference between saying somebody is under performing an calling somebody names.

    That difference is heavily lost for most people, actually.
    Here's an example from another game, since i haven't been playing GW2 seriously lately:
    A couple days ago, i was running a specific content in Warframe, where you just have to endure waves of minions for a set time, it's somewhat high-end content, but i have a nice little build that allows me to wipe away the map in a second or so.
    I was plying with two other guys, doing 80% of the group's damage, one of the other guys was actually trying to do something, the other was standing somewhat near me with a frame that is basically unkillable, but doing nothing else.
    The guy that was trying went down (there's a down mechanic similar to GW2, except you can't rally by yourself, you need to be ressed), and the other guy didn't move, so i had to stop carrying them to go and ress the other guy.
    When the down guy thanked me, i said "NP, that other guy could have helped though".
    Well, it was like i had insulted his mother man... If you read that chat.

    @Laila Lightness.8742 said:
    Its matters how the victim feel is harrasment some are more sensetive

    Then they should grow thicker skin and mature a bit, because this applies not only to the game, but to life in general. If you're doing a bad job at your work, someone will point it out to you, and depending on your job, it can get down to downright rude. If you're unable to cope, you might try to sue for harassment, but you'll most likely lose.

    It's not how the "victim feels" it's how much the person did or did not breach the rules of civility that are pretty much universal. Even if a person's rude as hell, there's still a large step from being rude to harassment. And people need to understand that difference otherwise, well... It usually never ends well.
    Like the example that the OP gave, while it might be considered mildly rude, it's nowhere near harassment. Insults, and foul language, if persistent might consist of harassment, threats and demeaning language, especially if made in a context that's definitely not playful, that is harassment and/or causing distress.

    Saying that someone's DPS is "ridiculously low", can be simply a statement of fact. I mean if someone's going under 1k DPS not being a support class (seen it happen), that's ridiculously low, that's the most adequate qualifier of how low the DPS is. It's so low its unreasonable and laughable.

    PS: When i write "you" i'm not mentioning yourself specific, more like "they", it's a language quirk from my native language that i'm often unable to curb.

  • Hi/Hello/Bonjour/Guten Tag/Buenos dias,
    Thank you and sorry,
    I don't want to bother you nor offend you, I was just looking at general DPS and I noted you did less than half the recommended DPS. Sorry to bother you but can you look at your equipment and your rotation to improve your DPS ?
    Please don't take that like an offense.
    Thank you and sorry.

  • Nepster.4275Nepster.4275 Member ✭✭✭

    As of now with this balance i dont see any reason to do very small DPS, the most meta class as pDPS is thief with a very easy rota.Almost all classes are performing on good level, and low dps is subjective. I hate to point this out in PUGs for example but doing low DPS and failing mechanics is like coming to school without your homework done.
    If you want to learn stuff read up and go with training runs, they dont complain about stuff, and even if you get blamed in a training run that your DPS is low then the problem is you.I dont agree with being a jerk as far as low DPS goes, but on the other side dont be sore if people point out that you dont have your stuff right. End game content made for people who know everything about their class atleast and want to enjoy some hard stuff. Doing low DPS means you either dont have enough time on the class or you just want to leech stuff. Raids are nowhere to hard, especially in this game where chronos upkeep protection on you and druids can smash on the keyboard and keep everyone alive, both reqs some IQ but nothing that coudnt be done with 30-40 mins of practice.

  • Zenith.7301Zenith.7301 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 23, 2018

    @ReaverKane.7598 said:

    @Zenith.7301 said:

    @ReaverKane.7598 said:

    @phs.6089 said:

    @ReaverKane.7598 said:

    These are usually the same people who think they can jump bug flux bombs on Shattered Observatory and end up dropping them on top of Arkk occassionally or on Siax or puking over everybody or spawning a nightmare in 99CM because god forbid they move off the boss to do a mechanic and their precious meter drops. Same with anomalies on Arkk, you could just kill the kitten anomaly which takes less than 5 seconds to be safe instead of being a greedy kitten and trying to skip every phase and remove every challenge possible from an encounter by trying to brute force it with burst DPS. Then things go wrong when they find out not every group can burst efficiently and they throw a tantrum when said group can still pull off mechanics cleanly for a kill with no wipes.

    And yet, if there's a more efficient way of doing things by "brute forcing" through mechanics, why wouldn't you?

    cus sometimes you wanna stop and smell the roses and cus most of the time those brutforcers juts to showoff their dps ignore anything and waste my time by wiping

    I smelled the roses the first 3-10 times through... Now i want to hold my breath and plow through the content in as little time as i can. If i choose to do so, and the majority of the community does so. I don't think that people that don't "feel like" pulling their own weight have no business telling me how to play.
    What you forget is that 90% of the people have completed the content more than once, and are just going through the motions, because the game requires you to farm. If you're late to the bus, it's ok, there's a lot of people willing to teach you how to. Heck i'm willing to bet anything that most of the "elitists" i know probably spent more hours trudging through content to teach new players how to do it than anyone that complains about elitists in the forums.
    How can i say this? Easy, if you're here complaining about people that do content efficiently, odds are you don't know how to do it yourself.

    @Belorn.2659 said:
    DPS, boon sharing, CC, heals, toughness checks, blocks, pushes, special action key, condition damage, boon strip, blue circles, red orbs, eggs, bombs, mushrooms, poison, reflects, portals, stacking, buttons, pulls, hands, black, dead, green circles, light, big orbs, shackles, soul split, enforces, 10%, swords, shields, lamp...

    Each and every one of those are critical to perform correctly in raiding. They are all mechanics, and DPS is just one among many. Failure will result in player death, lost time and frustration if continued for too long. Calling out players on any of those in voice or squad chat is not harassment in of itself. Playing a game means working within the constraints of the game mechanics, and raid is designed to have more mechanics than any other game mode.

    Harassment is not about which mechanic someone is failing at, but rather how people are calling out someone. Harassing someone about reflects in mathias, getting egged in gor, missing a green at dhuum, getting picked up by during CM, or low DPS is all the same from a game rule perspective. Harassment is not allowed, but calling out people for failing mechanics is. The distinction is in how it is done.

    Exactly! The issue is, lots of people will take any criticism of their infallible selves as harassment. I mean, if someone talked to me like OP's example... I'd probably take notice of my DPS and see what's failing or just tell him to stuff it cause i'm a support chrono ^_^ But i wouldn't think of it as harassment. Yet op clearly does. I think it's also a cultural and generational problem. Some people have incredibly thin skins, so thin i'm baffled how they manage to survive in the internet.

    @Zenith.7301 said:

    @ReaverKane.7598 said:

    @Zenith.7301 said:

    @ReaverKane.7598 said:

    @Deimos.4263 said:

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:
    Basically, you're asking whether ANet should punish people for being rude; they don't and they won't.

    They can and they should, at least according to their own ToS. You can inform a player their DPS is sub-par without being rude about it. It is possible.

    And yet, as polite as you are there's always people that will take any criticism as constructive as you make it, as harassment.

    @Zenith.7301 said:
    I mean, there's a difference of a person doing 3k DPS (which I don't even buy, that's just plain impossible unless you're playing a magi druid or minstrel chrono)

    Get a DPS meter... You'll be surprised. I've outdpsed "DPS" Necromancers, thieves and Elementalists on full Minstrel Chrono. There's a lot of people out there that don't know what they're doing.
    There's people that just copy the builds from the page, don't even read why the build works, or how. And then go do content and just don't do anything, because they don't know how their rotation works, don't know how to avoid taking damage, and don't know how to fight, so they die a lot (especially thieves and Eles) and don't do squat. Or simply are playing too defensive builds that have little to no synergy, and don't work.
    I've carried so many of these people on the backs of decent groups that i really lost count. People complaining about the "elitists" should shut up and be thankful that they have someone to carry them through content. Because if you're doing 1k DPS on a DPS class with a decent support component, you're not going to be doing any better outsie.

    These are usually the same people who think they can jump bug flux bombs on Shattered Observatory and end up dropping them on top of Arkk occassionally or on Siax or puking over everybody or spawning a nightmare in 99CM because god forbid they move off the boss to do a mechanic and their precious meter drops. Same with anomalies on Arkk, you could just kill the kitten anomaly which takes less than 5 seconds to be safe instead of being a greedy kitten and trying to skip every phase and remove every challenge possible from an encounter by trying to brute force it with burst DPS. Then things go wrong when they find out not every group can burst efficiently and they throw a tantrum when said group can still pull off mechanics cleanly for a kill with no wipes.

    And yet, if there's a more efficient way of doing things by "brute forcing" through mechanics, why wouldn't you?

    Because it's

    a) A pug, which means less coordination than usual.

    One more reason to overcompensate and want better prepared players?

    b) Class comp dependent.

    To a point, there's 2, maybe 3 slots that need to be more or less fixed (the chrono, and then Druid and Banner warrior, which are both somewhat replaceable), the other slots are totally interchangeable. And even then you can replace those with other comps, but those are more risk prone, so less used. And actually need more fixed classes to compensate for the lack of the chrono.

    c)Totally irrelevant as to whether the content can be completed cleanly within a reasonable amount of time by your average PUG group.

    Is it? I don't find it irrelevant or unreasonable to expect that i don't need more than 1h to complete all fractals. And yet if i don't take a group with somewhat decent DPS and compositions, i'll very likely pass that mark, especially if i hit some of the longer fractals like SO.

    And that's really the problem. I remember when mirage was busted and people thought 13-14k DPS was ridiculously high, now they've overbuffed a bunch of power specs and now people are absurdly stupid about not bringing certain classes that would have passed muster back then because other classes now have more power creep.

    13-14k FPS busted? At PoF launch? LOL We were long past that mark.

    Back when revenant at 30-31k was considered really high in a world of 27-29k benchmarks, and now 29-30k is "trash" and gets you a torrent of whining and petty remarks by the kitten PUG who now deems any class that does not have a 33k+ benchmark as "terrible" and not wanted in a group.

    Well, you're right that there's some people that will be like that. For fractals i'll take anyone, really, and if it's going well, i'll happily carry those 1kdps guys. But if it isn't i'll start asking people below 10k DPS on ArcDPS if they can't do better. And depending on their response, a vote kick might follow.
    That's basically my benchmark for fractals, 10k DPS. Can't speak much for raids since i'm not a big expert on those since most of my guild mates left before those were a thing, and i think that's not the kind of content that's fun without a proper group. I've done several with pugs, and an allied guild, but then started having less time to play, and kinda stopped.

    It's these increasinly ramping requirements that are totally extraneous but somehow get treated as if they were vital or it's the end of the world.

    That's because the game itself lends itself to that power creep. For one, they keep adding the power creep because instead of making Elites interesting they choose to make them OP. Then it's a hard struggle to get the game to a decent balance, which previously was only starting to form when they released the new set of elites.
    Add to that the fact that Raids have Enrage Timers, which by themselves function as a pure DPS check, and you get the reason why this is such an issue.

    Well, that and because for half of this game's existence this was a basically everything goes, just play berserker gear and you'll be top notch. Now it started requiring a bit more effort and offering a bit more variety, and some people chafe.

    Sitting in a LFG waiting for 10 minutes or more for a BS warrior when taking another DPS in the amount of time you spent waiting for the BS warrior would have yielded the same clear time.

    Honestly... This sentence of yours is just demonstrative of my previous point. I've spent hours in a few other games waiting for a healer or a tank to be on so often, and now here we are complaining about a severely hyperbolic 10 minutes wait.
    I literally never had this happen to me in Fractals, and rarely in Raids. In fractals, i can do well without the banner guy, and usually play with one or two other friends who help cover the "required" slots, which helps. But even when solo, and outside CM (where i'm more careful, and also there's less people willing to go), i get a group going in usually under 5 minutes.

    1- Overcompensation for lack of coordination is already done through presumably the kill proof requirements. Class kitten as SC/qT themselves coined the term are an entirely different matter. The degree of overcompensation is also what's being discussed.

    Overcompensation for that lack of coordination is what i deem necessary. Not you. If i think that to compensate for coordination everyone must have a full Knights Reaper, that's what i'll ask of my group. It's not up to you to decide.
    Me, personally, i never, ever ask for KP. I prefer asking for people that know how to play, and have some common sense/experience, and if they fail to prove that through their performance then i act. I also prefer to take safer group comps as well. My way doesn't limit any player from joining, as long as they are willing to play required classes (which again, is usually just generic DPS, since, especially for harder content like CM and Raids i prefer to have those slots covered through me and my friends).
    Basically your way (KPs) is way more prejudiced than mine.

    2- I have run plenty of 3 DPS no BS/non-weaver stacking comps that clear fractals in less than 45 minutes.

    So have i. Depending on the fractals. Heck i've done full T4 runs with recomendeds in less than 30 minutes while carrying a friend of mine that had like 40 AP. But other times, i'll rather take a proper comp, especially in certain fractals, like uncategorized, SO, etc that are cleared MUCH faster by brute-forcing mechanics with healers and supports.

    In fact, often the greatest waste of time is when you form a group, get a scourge or revenant, and then unless your group already had a druid or chrono, the waiting times for that group to fill shoot up astronomically even with lax requirements. It's an infection that has seeped into PUG mentality just as much as when people would scoff at thieves, rangers, and necromancers in explorable dungeons.

    Again. I never took longer than 5 minutes to fill my group. I've never scoffed at any class in explorable dungeons. Again, i don't ask for meta builds, i ask for good performances. And now, thanks to DPS meters being allowed i can actually monitor mine and other people's performance based on actual numbers and not "feelings".

    3- Class comp dependency for bursting still exists. Case in point, you might have trouble skipping phases with a condi renegade or power dps chrono or condi engineer, but at the same time have pretty reasonable clearing and clean runs for each of those bosses that don't translate to more than maybe 1-2 minutes kill time difference for the CM's. It virtually hurts no one in these circumstances to just opt to do the mechanics, which is how the encounter was designed to begin with; instead of berating people because they did 12-14k DPS instead of bursting 20k+.

    Agreed. I usually prefer to do the mechanics, or at least partially do them, than brute-force. It might shave a few minutes to just do so, but i find it safer to do it "proper". BUT, i'm not going to rush to the forums to berate anyone for choosing to do so. And if my group wants to skip mechanics, i'll do that, because i know what my character can do. And when i don't, i ask.

    4- Mirage on your average PoF release CM were doing little more than 14k-15k DPS tops for most CM runs before people started whining about their easy damage, and for optimal runs of course weavers were already king. Point is, nobody whined about 13-14k DPS on CM's because outside weavers few people objected to 10-12k DPS by then.

    Sure... Yeah.. Your memory is fuzzy there mate, cause i easily recall a lot of 50k broken numbers from a few classes when PoF launched. And the average DPS benchmarks was already well into the 30K's back then.
    I still don't see anyone berating people for less than 30k dps in actual gameplay. Benchmarks are benchmarks. They're not supposed to be expected from everyone everywhere.
    I'll grant you, i haven't done a Fractal (or basically anything else) in like 2-3 months. But i don't think there would be such a drastic shift. But if that is happening everywhere, well that's nice, if people can do 30kdps solid, then the game surely progressed further into the holy broken game status.

    5- On the bare minimum, we agree. I tend to prefer a 12k DPS standard of performance for non-phase heavy fights (skorvald tends to depress the DPS of classes without snap burst a lot, and whoever gets to cream the adds first usually looks a ton better than the rest). Virtually every class spec can pull off 12k DPS. If they fail that test and land more in the 8-9k range, I whisper them the SC website at the end of the run. If they did considerably less, I usually just avoid them in future groups. I never go out of my way to humiliate people, however. Even when you carry a person, toxic aggressiveness is simply not admissible.

    Well, asking a person what build they're running, and mentioning they could probably improve is humiliating only to those without humility.

    6- Raid enrage timers are stupidly lax. They're almost nonexistent unless you have seriously screwed up mechanics and you have people in knights gear sneaked in. In all these years of raiding, and I have PuG'd a ton, I have NEVER wiped due to an enrage timer. The closest I've ever gotten was Gorseval.

    Of course you never wiped... Because when you hit that mark, people just GG.

    Hell, the hardest raid boss to do training runs in imo, Matthias, is still an extremely forgiving timer.

    People have obsessed over clear times long before DPS enrage timers existed. I suspect it's because the content is so relatively easier compared to FFXIV savage mode or WoW mythic's level of encounter complexity that since people clear the content so quickly, and there's little in terms of progression, they occupy their time instead with optimizing clear times so they can go make gold somewhere else since raiding is not particularly lucrative to begin with and even fractal CM's are hardly more lucrative than RIBA farms or spending similar amounts of time playing the AH.

    Yeah, there's a thing called speed runs, and people actually kind of compete with that. But that isn't usually what you do with PUGs. The thing about wanting to do content fast in pugs, is that, you've done that content 100's of times already, you just want to go ahead and be done with it. No one wants to do the same thing over and over again (well, some people do, but each one has their kinks).

    7- You may not have experienced it, but I have. Literally today as well after reset, where we filled a group at :45 and ended up running at :57 because the druid and chrono came in and saw no warrior, were told we would run without BS, and it became a game of dancing chairs as people came in, left, came in, left, came in, until finally we got a bunch that didn't care that a BS warrior would not join.

    Are you playing in NA? Because i've litterally NEVER have had anyone leaving because no warrior in Fractals.

    I have even carried out experiments where I swap the DPS comps in LFG to include any class that is not a weaver/guard/holo, and if a necro or revenant is in the group, wait times to fill go up substantially. Want to play power DPS chrono or even soulbeast? The moment people see two of the same class in LFG and it's not weavers or guardian, wait times also shoot up. Even in the case of having a thief in the group yields longer wait times than a full group of weaver/holo/guardian by far.

    Heck, i try to stay away from Elementalists and thieves in my fractals. Again, to each their own. I've failed more fractals from elementalists dying constantly and taking DPS away because people have to ress them than from Necromancers doing 1000DPS.

    Yes, NA. Yes, game of dancing chairs.

    That explains your problem... In the EU, apparently people are more civilized, and since the pop is larger there's less wait times.

    No, I don't dictate to other groups what they should require. Which why, if you bothered to read my initial post, I mentioned that despite making my own groups or joining lax low essence runs, I've had some people still come in with entitlement and their preconceived notions of how groups should be run even when they themselves had the option to join a 250+ essence "BS/DRUID/CHRONO/WEAVERX3 ONLY" instead of bringing their kitten to other groups.

    It's PUG mentality, people behave like sheeple and often want to shame others for not following their preconceived notions of what a group should have.

    It's more common sense. Being "unique" and "thinking outside the box" more often than not simply boils down to being wrong. Just look at all the "unique" people in the conspiracy theory groups.
    The game has matured enough for people to have recognized a pattern of performance. That dictates a lot, if you look at someone's DPS and it's below 10k, that person is surely not pulling their weight (exceptions made for support builds).
    Most of the time, in my experience, except for the support slots, which whether you like it or not, will speed up runs, people are very lax about the DPS slots. With the unspoken agreement that you're expected to have at least a decent DPS.
    It's like when you meet someone for the first time, there's nothing pre-arranged, there's no sign above his head saying "shake my hand, don't punch my face", and yet you shake that person's hand, and won't punch his face.
    Same thing in the PUG, the majority of people recognize that to do their part, they either have to do a decent support build, and provide boons/healing to the group, or have enough DPS to be a proper contribution.
    Of course there's the "special" and "unique" players that rather not contribute to the group, and make a statement about how "unique" they are. Of course, they underperform and get kicked. Because, matey, you can have the most absurd build in the world, but if it does 15k DPS consistently no one will annoy you about it, if anything they'll want to know how it works.

    The thing is, GuildWars 2 for all it's variety, if you're actually trying to maximize the efficiency of your build, and you're half decent at theory crafting, you'll always land on a build that's at least very similar to a "meta" build. Because there's only so many combinations of traits, stats and skills that can put out that much DPS. Sure you might have a different trait or two, or even a different trait line, you might run a slightly different stat set, different runes, sigils, etc. But if you're a serious theory crafter and you're aiming to maximize DPS, you'll usually have the same major points on your build as the "meta" ones. It's not meta because one guy decided "this is meta now", you know?

    The whole point of LFG is to have freedom to make your own groups, but when people come in and despite clear descriptions in the LFG they feel empowered to raise a stink, and the outcome is to heavily delay your run by having to kick them and wait for a guy who doesn't mind on missing out on one of the CM boss kills, that's a kitten problem. And it should be reportable behavior that gets actioned just as much as people who use cheat links to fake KP, etc.

    Again, there's a point where you stop being "casual" and "relaxed" and you start being a leecher, just progressing from other people's efforts. And, no matter what it says in the group's description (unless it's "i want to leech of of you") people have the right to complain about someone underperforming.
    A few words in a LFG title don't give you power over someone's time or actions.

    If we have to replace someone in the middle of artsariv because he's being passive aggressive and trash talking people and then understandably other people don't want to join a 100CM where they miss out on one of the boss's rewards, then there should be consequences for that kind of behavior.

    Yeah, you kicked him out of the group, now he's going to have to repeat the same stuff again.

    It's one thing to offer suggestions for improvement ("hey, stop using focus 4 to pull the adds to Siax during last laugh affix; it screws the group over and makes CC harder"); it's another to place a target marker on a member of the group and say "the carry was heavy". Games should absolutely not tolerate adults behaving like petty brats, ever.

    Why not? If i'm carrying you, why can't i point that out?
    Again some people don't realize they are not doing well, because, thanks to people behaving like you seen in this thread, blaming DPS meters for all the evils in the world, they don't use them. That means that if you don't point it out, they won't ever realize they're just leeching of groups.
    Are there politer ways to do that? Sure.
    But then again, there's also a polite way to not go into a group and hope they carry you through CM content. That is by practising, and maybe get ArcDPS, or test your rotations in the raid golem. So you can tell if you're doing well.
    Assigning yourself a "PASS" because it "feels" that you're performing well, doesn't mean you're actually doing so.

    @Teratus.2859 Most people don't run "DPS" groups. Like i said before, there's more or less a consensus on what is a good performance. Usually people will use a number between 8-15k DPS, i look for 10kDPS in DPS classes, but won't say anything if you're doing 8-9k, especially in Banner Warriors, who usually lose some damage boosts from having to slot in banners. If you're running under that, unless you're on a support build, or simply not contributing to the group, regardless of the scope.

    @yann.1946 said:

    @Dabrixmgp.4758 said:
    if you arent performing why shouldnt that be pointed out? sounds like someone just wants to get carried.

    @borgs.6103 said:
    You probably deserved the shaming and can't handle the truth so you have to seek affirmation from enablers.

    Their is a difference between saying somebody is under performing an calling somebody names.

    That difference is heavily lost for most people, actually.
    Here's an example from another game, since i haven't been playing GW2 seriously lately:
    A couple days ago, i was running a specific content in Warframe, where you just have to endure waves of minions for a set time, it's somewhat high-end content, but i have a nice little build that allows me to wipe away the map in a second or so.
    I was plying with two other guys, doing 80% of the group's damage, one of the other guys was actually trying to do something, the other was standing somewhat near me with a frame that is basically unkillable, but doing nothing else.
    The guy that was trying went down (there's a down mechanic similar to GW2, except you can't rally by yourself, you need to be ressed), and the other guy didn't move, so i had to stop carrying them to go and ress the other guy.
    When the down guy thanked me, i said "NP, that other guy could have helped though".
    Well, it was like i had insulted his mother man... If you read that chat.

    @Laila Lightness.8742 said:
    Its matters how the victim feel is harrasment some are more sensetive

    Then they should grow thicker skin and mature a bit, because this applies not only to the game, but to life in general. If you're doing a bad job at your work, someone will point it out to you, and depending on your job, it can get down to downright rude. If you're unable to cope, you might try to sue for harassment, but you'll most likely lose.

    It's not how the "victim feels" it's how much the person did or did not breach the rules of civility that are pretty much universal. Even if a person's rude as hell, there's still a large step from being rude to harassment. And people need to understand that difference otherwise, well... It usually never ends well.
    Like the example that the OP gave, while it might be considered mildly rude, it's nowhere near harassment. Insults, and foul language, if persistent might consist of harassment, threats and demeaning language, especially if made in a context that's definitely not playful, that is harassment and/or causing distress.

    Saying that someone's DPS is "ridiculously low", can be simply a statement of fact. I mean if someone's going under 1k DPS not being a support class (seen it happen), that's ridiculously low, that's the most adequate qualifier of how low the DPS is. It's so low its unreasonable and laughable.

    PS: When i write "you" i'm not mentioning yourself specific, more like "they", it's a language quirk from my native language that i'm often unable to curb.

    I don't really care for subjective terms like "leecher". You join a low essence/chill run, you kitten about the group.

    Because it's quite simple. What some deem carrying is basically "you did 12-13k DPS and we had to see a certain phase I wanted to skip", everybody has a concept of carrying . No, politeness isn't optional.

    It really is that simple, you join a group that's advertised that way, you don't get to impose your standards on 4 other people. That's what those 250 essence weaver only groups are for, so you can take your psychopath snark to those groups and let other people manage their own play.

    And getting kicked is not even that much of a punishment because those kicking you from a CM are suffering the same punishment as you are, namely having to start the run again because most people don't want to join a half done CM run and miss out on the daily essences or chance at a blue infusion.

    There is zero tolerance for incivility; I don't care what entitlement you (general you, not personal you) have about what other people should bring to your experience. If you joined a group where you had to carry or people were not up to your standards, then you chose poorly because the discriminatory tools are perfectly available and you can always choose stringent groups.

  • Zunki.3916Zunki.3916 Member ✭✭✭

    @Laila Lightness.8742 said:
    Its matters how the victim feel is harrasment some are more sensetive

    Some people feel harassed if you look at them and some may feel harassed when you don't. Why I agree that for the "victim" what you say is absolutely true, it's actually also important what the intention of something was, and how such a situation is for a average-sensitive-person (if such a thing exists).

    One person could fall in love with another over something another person might understand as harassment. Feeling harassed is so kitten subjective and can go to the extreme for no outside obvious reason. That's not where you set your bar, really.

    @Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:
    Hi/Hello/Bonjour/Guten Tag/Buenos dias,
    Thank you and sorry,
    I don't want to bother you nor offend you, I was just looking at general DPS and I noted you did less than half the recommended DPS. Sorry to bother you but can you look at your equipment and your rotation to improve your DPS ?
    Please don't take that like an offense.
    Thank you and sorry.

    You may laugh, buts actually a way I would write such a thing these days.

    In my earlier days I had a LOT of problems with people in WoW while triing to improve our static raiding play. But people are SOOOOO when you try to help them get better, even if you are dirt polite. As an interesting sidenote this suddenly changed when I joined a dedicated high end raiding guild. Those people all knew that they ARE good and therefore when someone made a mistake, you could call them and they would just say "Yeah I kitten that up, I'll try to improve". Because they were good enough to realize when they play kitten and realize why a boss goes down and why not.

    Today I only pug and try to not say anything and just do my thing. But it's alarming how people cannot realize that if you need 60k dps to reach an enrage timer, doing 4kdps as one of 6 dps may be a problem. I mean come on, can't we just agree that having at least some common sense and BASIC math skills (6*10=60) should be considered as normal.

    Viable != Optimal

    Not viable = You only get carried, 10 players with a build as "viable as yours" can't properly do it.

  • Talindra.4958Talindra.4958 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:
    Hi/Hello/Bonjour/Guten Tag/Buenos dias,
    Thank you and sorry,
    I don't want to bother you nor offend you, I was just looking at general DPS and I noted you did less than half the recommended DPS. Sorry to bother you but can you look at your equipment and your rotation to improve your DPS ?
    Please don't take that like an offense.
    Thank you and sorry.

    So a LFM that says
    50 Li, 10 kp | chrono, dps, bs, druid|

    Someone rock up request to do dps role and if every other dps in squad does 4 times his dps, what do you think the commander should do?
    Com can pm that person and ask him leave giving reason that he needs someone who can provide decent dps to phase/skip certain mechanic or if possible allow him reroll other profession.
    There's no need to say so many sorry. I believe he should be saying sorry instead.
    I don't like name shaming as well. So I would support an option in the game for player to report players for name shaming. Offender gets a buff such as dishonoured in PvP for 3days. Repeat offender can get ban. 🤣🤣

    Death is Energy [DIE] in EU
    Envoy's Herald, CoZ, VitV, DD, SS, The Eternal, LNHB, Champion Magus, Champion Phantom, Wondrous Achiever etc.

  • ReaverKane.7598ReaverKane.7598 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Zenith.7301 said:
    There is zero tolerance for incivility; I don't care what entitlement you (general you, not personal you) have about what other people should bring to your experience. If you joined a group where you had to carry or people were not up to your standards, then you chose poorly because the discriminatory tools are perfectly available and you can always choose stringent groups.

    Your (personal you) standards aren't Arena Net's standards, so your "zero tolerance" is your own. Also, i'd dare say the community's standards are also not even remotely equal to your own, not only in the zero tolerance, but also in how to use the discriminatory tools.
    See, your (again, personal you) statement is a clear illustration of the mindset of the few people that will rant here about dps meters and "toxic elitists". You have a point of view that is detached from the overall community, and you still choose to impose that point of view as the "superior" view, because its your own. And then when it clashes with others, then they're not being civil.
    But in doing so, you forget what "being civil" is. "Being civil" is pretty much adhering to the standards, norms and expected behaviour in a community. Which, by your own admission, you don't care for.
    The overall community expects players to be an asset to a group, not a detriment. Many players in the community have an objective form of determining that, which is by the use of a DPS meter, others use arbitrary means to do so (like excluding certain classes/builds). Me i prefer the more objective way. But you still need to understand that whatever the group's title it is, it's still a community, and if the majority feel that your own standards don't equate to that of the community, then, by default, the "uncivil" one is you.

    Again, that doesn't excuse people from being impolite, rude, and aggressive. But that doesn't immediately mean they're the only one's in the wrong. Especially, since, even in the NA servers there's people of multiple languages and backgrounds, and some express themselves better than others, especially when speaking out of frustration. As such, you can't immediately demand for a ban because someone "felt" harassed.> @Talindra.4958 said:

    @Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:
    Hi/Hello/Bonjour/Guten Tag/Buenos dias,
    Thank you and sorry,
    I don't want to bother you nor offend you, I was just looking at general DPS and I noted you did less than half the recommended DPS. Sorry to bother you but can you look at your equipment and your rotation to improve your DPS ?
    Please don't take that like an offense.
    Thank you and sorry.

    So a LFM that says
    50 Li, 10 kp | chrono, dps, bs, druid|

    Someone rock up request to do dps role and if every other dps in squad does 4 times his dps, what do you think the commander should do?
    Com can pm that person and ask him leave giving reason that he needs someone who can provide decent dps to phase/skip certain mechanic or if possible allow him reroll other profession.
    There's no need to say so many sorry. I believe he should be saying sorry instead.
    I don't like name shaming as well. So I would support an option in the game for player to report players for name shaming. Offender gets a buff such as dishonoured in PvP for 3days. Repeat offender can get ban. 🤣🤣

    If the buff was immediate, you can bet your behind it would get abused real quick, and a lot of people would be maliciously reporting people willy nilly.
    Other than that, this is already what happens... You report a people for harassment/rude language. A dev/mod gets the report, looks at chat logs, determines if it's indeed the case, will then either suspend him, mute him, whatever they do. And repeat offenders will usually get banned, especially if the offence is serious enough.

  • Zenith.7301Zenith.7301 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ReaverKane.7598 said:

    @Zenith.7301 said:
    There is zero tolerance for incivility; I don't care what entitlement you (general you, not personal you) have about what other people should bring to your experience. If you joined a group where you had to carry or people were not up to your standards, then you chose poorly because the discriminatory tools are perfectly available and you can always choose stringent groups.

    Your (personal you) standards aren't Arena Net's standards, so your "zero tolerance" is your own. Also, i'd dare say the community's standards are also not even remotely equal to your own, not only in the zero tolerance, but also in how to use the discriminatory tools.
    See, your (again, personal you) statement is a clear illustration of the mindset of the few people that will rant here about dps meters and "toxic elitists". You have a point of view that is detached from the overall community, and you still choose to impose that point of view as the "superior" view, because its your own. And then when it clashes with others, then they're not being civil.
    But in doing so, you forget what "being civil" is. "Being civil" is pretty much adhering to the standards, norms and expected behaviour in a community. Which, by your own admission, you don't care for.
    The overall community expects players to be an asset to a group, not a detriment. Many players in the community have an objective form of determining that, which is by the use of a DPS meter, others use arbitrary means to do so (like excluding certain classes/builds). Me i prefer the more objective way. But you still need to understand that whatever the group's title it is, it's still a community, and if the majority feel that your own standards don't equate to that of the community, then, by default, the "uncivil" one is you.

    Again, that doesn't excuse people from being impolite, rude, and aggressive. But that doesn't immediately mean they're the only one's in the wrong. Especially, since, even in the NA servers there's people of multiple languages and backgrounds, and some express themselves better than others, especially when speaking out of frustration. As such, you can't immediately demand for a ban because someone "felt" harassed.> @Talindra.4958 said:

    @Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:
    Hi/Hello/Bonjour/Guten Tag/Buenos dias,
    Thank you and sorry,
    I don't want to bother you nor offend you, I was just looking at general DPS and I noted you did less than half the recommended DPS. Sorry to bother you but can you look at your equipment and your rotation to improve your DPS ?
    Please don't take that like an offense.
    Thank you and sorry.

    So a LFM that says
    50 Li, 10 kp | chrono, dps, bs, druid|

    Someone rock up request to do dps role and if every other dps in squad does 4 times his dps, what do you think the commander should do?
    Com can pm that person and ask him leave giving reason that he needs someone who can provide decent dps to phase/skip certain mechanic or if possible allow him reroll other profession.
    There's no need to say so many sorry. I believe he should be saying sorry instead.
    I don't like name shaming as well. So I would support an option in the game for player to report players for name shaming. Offender gets a buff such as dishonoured in PvP for 3days. Repeat offender can get ban. 🤣🤣

    If the buff was immediate, you can bet your behind it would get abused real quick, and a lot of people would be maliciously reporting people willy nilly.
    Other than that, this is already what happens... You report a people for harassment/rude language. A dev/mod gets the report, looks at chat logs, determines if it's indeed the case, will then either suspend him, mute him, whatever they do. And repeat offenders will usually get banned, especially if the offence is serious enough.

    Don't presume to speak for a community you don't even have a proper census for. You don't know the community standards, and completely brushed off the point about defining what is an asset and what is a burden given how that varies wildly by the person in question. The only thing that's standardized is how you address people, however much you strive to make it a grey issue about rudeness and belligerence being "relative".

    I didn't even criticize DPS meters.....

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Zenith.7301 said:
    If you joined a group where you had to carry or people were not up to your standards, then you chose poorly because the discriminatory tools are perfectly available and you can always choose stringent groups.

    I wonder, what are these tools you are talking about? Where can I find them and use them?

  • ReaverKane.7598ReaverKane.7598 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Zenith.7301 said:
    If you joined a group where you had to carry or people were not up to your standards, then you chose poorly because the discriminatory tools are perfectly available and you can always choose stringent groups.

    I wonder, what are these tools you are talking about? Where can I find them and use them?

    He means LFG description i think.

    @Zenith.7301 said:

    @ReaverKane.7598 said:

    @Zenith.7301 said:
    There is zero tolerance for incivility; I don't care what entitlement you (general you, not personal you) have about what other people should bring to your experience. If you joined a group where you had to carry or people were not up to your standards, then you chose poorly because the discriminatory tools are perfectly available and you can always choose stringent groups.

    Your (personal you) standards aren't Arena Net's standards, so your "zero tolerance" is your own. Also, i'd dare say the community's standards are also not even remotely equal to your own, not only in the zero tolerance, but also in how to use the discriminatory tools.
    See, your (again, personal you) statement is a clear illustration of the mindset of the few people that will rant here about dps meters and "toxic elitists". You have a point of view that is detached from the overall community, and you still choose to impose that point of view as the "superior" view, because its your own. And then when it clashes with others, then they're not being civil.
    But in doing so, you forget what "being civil" is. "Being civil" is pretty much adhering to the standards, norms and expected behaviour in a community. Which, by your own admission, you don't care for.
    The overall community expects players to be an asset to a group, not a detriment. Many players in the community have an objective form of determining that, which is by the use of a DPS meter, others use arbitrary means to do so (like excluding certain classes/builds). Me i prefer the more objective way. But you still need to understand that whatever the group's title it is, it's still a community, and if the majority feel that your own standards don't equate to that of the community, then, by default, the "uncivil" one is you.

    Again, that doesn't excuse people from being impolite, rude, and aggressive. But that doesn't immediately mean they're the only one's in the wrong. Especially, since, even in the NA servers there's people of multiple languages and backgrounds, and some express themselves better than others, especially when speaking out of frustration. As such, you can't immediately demand for a ban because someone "felt" harassed.> @Talindra.4958 said:

    @Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:
    Hi/Hello/Bonjour/Guten Tag/Buenos dias,
    Thank you and sorry,
    I don't want to bother you nor offend you, I was just looking at general DPS and I noted you did less than half the recommended DPS. Sorry to bother you but can you look at your equipment and your rotation to improve your DPS ?
    Please don't take that like an offense.
    Thank you and sorry.

    So a LFM that says
    50 Li, 10 kp | chrono, dps, bs, druid|

    Someone rock up request to do dps role and if every other dps in squad does 4 times his dps, what do you think the commander should do?
    Com can pm that person and ask him leave giving reason that he needs someone who can provide decent dps to phase/skip certain mechanic or if possible allow him reroll other profession.
    There's no need to say so many sorry. I believe he should be saying sorry instead.
    I don't like name shaming as well. So I would support an option in the game for player to report players for name shaming. Offender gets a buff such as dishonoured in PvP for 3days. Repeat offender can get ban. 🤣🤣

    If the buff was immediate, you can bet your behind it would get abused real quick, and a lot of people would be maliciously reporting people willy nilly.
    Other than that, this is already what happens... You report a people for harassment/rude language. A dev/mod gets the report, looks at chat logs, determines if it's indeed the case, will then either suspend him, mute him, whatever they do. And repeat offenders will usually get banned, especially if the offence is serious enough.

    Don't presume to speak for a community you don't even have a proper census for. You don't know the community standards, and completely brushed off the point about defining what is an asset and what is a burden given how that varies wildly by the person in question. The only thing that's standardized is how you address people, however much you strive to make it a grey issue about rudeness and belligerence being "relative".

    I didn't even criticize DPS meters.....

    No census needed. If you play the game enough, and engage other players enough, you'll learn the "rules". Unless a person is somewhat autistic, usually in a social environment humans evolved to be able to pick up on behaviour and quickly grasp the rules of engagement. That's how "common sense" came to be, you don't need a poll to learn common sense, you learn it by socializing.
    IF you look around the forums, and ask in the game chat, most people will tell you that their "standard" for DPS is around 10-15k DPS. And if you look at tools like GW2 Raidar, you'll see that it's around the average DPS for most classes. Which is why it's a standard. Its born out of experience.

    You see, people that use DPS meters and are "toxic elitists" spend more time in the game than in the forums (i'm currently excluded from that group), so they develop a background of interactions and experiences that allows them to reach that consensus of what's "common sense" in the game. That's why when people fail that expectation, even on casual groups, people will react negatively. Just like if you go to England, and you do the V sign with your hand, in the wrong way, that's a rude gesture. It's not written in signs not to do that, or even in law, and i doubt there was ever a referendum about it... Yet... Do that in the wrong company, and you'll get out worse than "being harassed".

  • Zenith.7301Zenith.7301 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 24, 2018

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Zenith.7301 said:
    If you joined a group where you had to carry or people were not up to your standards, then you chose poorly because the discriminatory tools are perfectly available and you can always choose stringent groups.

    I wonder, what are these tools you are talking about? Where can I find them and use them?

    You can set KP (i.e. 250+ essences, ask multiple pings in split stacks so you know it's not a cheat code; you can set your class restrictions to discriminate against necromancers and revenants and power chronos or any condi class for that matter; and, if you got the time, just like they do in raids, you could ask people for their API so you can screen them through gw2efficiency).

    You can even type in your LFG "Using arcDPS, sub 15k DPS will be kicked, will be checking boon uptimes and aegis timing for the chrono."

    You have the tools, so that people of like mind can congregate instead of joining a group and starting to whine because someone brought a condi renegade or power herald/reaper and is doing 10-12k DPS and you're berating them about whether they can bring another class on a run that has had no wipes whatsoever and no significant downs mid-encounter.

    DPS meters are a perfectly fine tool, in fact Anet should support them officially and remove the idiotic restrictions on add on development (if people didn't have to go through the convoluted process of setting up and running arcDPS/TaCO and add ons were much better integrated like WoW's, people would actually be able to become aware of their need for improvement earlier and notice improvement much more naturally). Just as with handguns, it's how it's used. And there needs to be a discussion as to how the analytical tools are used and how misusing those tools ought to have appreciable consequences as listed under the ToS.

    Nobody's arguing that unprepared people should forcefully be carried by people who don't want to. We just kicked a guy from 100CM because we ran a t4 earlier and noticed the chrono was doing almost DPS as him as the BS warrior. We politely asked him what was wrong, asked him why he had no foods or potions (besides a single stack of offensive pot). He said he didn't know his rotation very well, and we pressed him to buy pots or food; when he tried to wave it away, we informed him he had to be removed from the group because the bare minimum for CM was bringing food and 5 stacks of each mist potion.

    There is a world of difference in how you handle social situations, and unlike the poster above me pretends people interact, everybody can tell verbal aggression or dismissal pretty clearly. And given the standards of forum moderation here, I'm pretty sure Anet would set similar standards of communications in-game. Not being a prick is not a tall order. It's actually much nicer to immediately kick someone quietly if the alternative is to trash talk them before the kick.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Zenith.7301 said:
    You can set KP (i.e. 250+ essences, ask multiple pings in split stacks so you know it's not a cheat code; you can set your class restrictions to discriminate against necromancers and revenants and power chronos or any condi class for that matter; and, if you got the time, just like they do in raids, you could ask people for their API so you can screen them through gw2efficiency).

    The problem with the LFG is that it's nothing enforced. I can understand that in Fractals setting requirements works well because you only get essences from running the CM, but in Raids it's different. You can get your LI to bypass requirements by running only the easier bosses and "claim" experience. The LFG would be a nice discriminating tool if the listings were respected, but they are not. And to be honest, I don't want to add such strict requirements that it takes ages for the slot to fill, all I ask for is to get people that are experienced in the fight and know how the mechanics, regardless of their LI total, but that's really hard to do on the LFG since so many special snowflakes exist in the game.

    Further, yes I can make such high requirements that I might filter out some players on the lower end, but then I'll only get the top of the chain, which can also be ridiculous in their own way, especially when they start talking about their own version of "optimal tactics" and the even worse argument of "my guild does this better". I've been in both situations, both getting players that claim experience when they have none, and players trying to force their own tactics, even if our current composition won't work with them.

    I'm not in a Raid team that is 100% optimal and SC-level DPS, and honestly I don't want to be in one. We are chill and are having our own fun running Raids together but sometimes we might have a spot or two open and need to pug it. Set the requirements too low and we get those that don't respect the LFG listing. Set the requirements too high and we get snobs. It's really hard to find descent non-liars, non-jerks some days. Not always, but it does happen.

    As for ArcDPS it doesn't work very well, because if you use ArcDPS to identify the slackers, you already wasted at least one run.

  • Zenith.7301Zenith.7301 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 24, 2018

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Zenith.7301 said:
    You can set KP (i.e. 250+ essences, ask multiple pings in split stacks so you know it's not a cheat code; you can set your class restrictions to discriminate against necromancers and revenants and power chronos or any condi class for that matter; and, if you got the time, just like they do in raids, you could ask people for their API so you can screen them through gw2efficiency).

    The problem with the LFG is that it's nothing enforced. I can understand that in Fractals setting requirements works well because you only get essences from running the CM, but in Raids it's different. You can get your LI to bypass requirements by running only the easier bosses and "claim" experience. The LFG would be a nice discriminating tool if the listings were respected, but they are not. And to be honest, I don't want to add such strict requirements that it takes ages for the slot to fill, all I ask for is to get people that are experienced in the fight and know how the mechanics, regardless of their LI total, but that's really hard to do on the LFG since so many special snowflakes exist in the game.

    Further, yes I can make such high requirements that I might filter out some players on the lower end, but then I'll only get the top of the chain, which can also be ridiculous in their own way, especially when they start talking about their own version of "optimal tactics" and the even worse argument of "my guild does this better". I've been in both situations, both getting players that claim experience when they have none, and players trying to force their own tactics, even if our current composition won't work with them.

    I'm not in a Raid team that is 100% optimal and SC-level DPS, and honestly I don't want to be in one. We are chill and are having our own fun running Raids together but sometimes we might have a spot or two open and need to pug it. Set the requirements too low and we get those that don't respect the LFG listing. Set the requirements too high and we get snobs. It's really hard to find descent non-liars, non-jerks some days. Not always, but it does happen.

    As for ArcDPS it doesn't work very well, because if you use ArcDPS to identify the slackers, you already wasted at least one run.

    One pull was wasted. You can kick immediately after a pull. Of course, doing so judiciously (i.e. I had a run in Skorvald where I was the DPS that got flux bomb all 4 times, obviously running that kitten out will have an appreciable impact on DPS, and a group lead should understand that, just as they should understand that the guy making the effort to run over and kill anomalies will have lower DPS than the people sitting on Arkk; similar principle applies to raid bosses like people running to throw bombs on Sabetha and those doing cannons).

    In raids there is simply no guarantee other than asking for API keys to check for GW2efficiency, because Anet is simply terrible with creating a simple to use and streamlined system to measure people's deeds in the game. I don't even understand why the inspect gear feature is not even allowed in this game. I would love nothing more than to not have to pollute my inventory slots with a bunch of useless trophies preserved for "KP".

    I sit on a similar stance with you. It'd be nice to have better systems to filter people into the appropriate skill levels and goals, but until Anet implements a better system of tracking in-game feats and performance, your single filter for a competent raiding environment that is still laidback will be to stop PuG'ing and be in a guild. Hell, even in WoW with the massively larger array of tools and add on's, PuG's are still a nightmare crapshoot; one just has to do the best they can with what is available.

    Either way, being upfront with your LFG and expecting that announcement to be respected by people joining the group (and being politely kicked for not cooperating; any form of harassment by members of the group being reported and promptly actioned) is imo the golden rule. Communication can save you a lot of headaches (even as you said, being stringent can invite pedantic players, but in my experience you can still get those people in less stringent LFG's which is even more aggravating since the whole point of less stringent requirements is to filter those psychopaths out).

  • Moogri.1935Moogri.1935 Member ✭✭
    edited December 12, 2018

    Here's an idea: help the underperforming player get better.
    Not only can ArcDPS just display a player's dps, but it breaks down the amount of damage that comes from each skill.
    In some cases you can do a quick analysis to try to figure out why that player is underperforming and a small suggestion could make a difference.
    The other day I had a Holo that did really low dps on Skorvald for 100CM. Had a look at the breakdown and he was using a ton of hip shots. So I just told him to use bomb kit 1 between Photon Forge activations and his DPS went right up. It still wasn't great, but much better than before.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 12, 2018

    @Moogri.1935 said:
    Here's an idea: help the underperforming player get better.
    Not only can ArcDPS just display a player's dps, but it breaks down the amount of damage that comes from each skill.
    In some cases you can do a quick analysis to try to figure out why that player is underperforming and a small suggestion could make a difference.
    The other day I had a Holo that did really low dps on Skorvald for 100CM. Had a look at the breakdown and he was using a ton of hip shots. So I just told him to use bomb kit 1 between Photon Forge activations and his DPS went right up. It still wasn't great, but much better than before.

    While I encourage people helping others, how reasonable is this for x-amount of raids (or fractals) , x-amount of players (you meet) and z-amount of classes (you would have to know)?

    At the end of the day, depending on the skill level of the group you are joining, a certain minimum amount of effort and preparation should and can be expected of an individual if they are joining as a role they should be able to play to begin with.

    Thus we are back to: don't join groups that perform far above your level unless you believe you can bring the performance required.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Moogri.1935 said:
    Here's an idea: help the underperforming player get better.
    Not only can ArcDPS just display a player's dps, but it breaks down the amount of damage that comes from each skill.
    In some cases you can do a quick analysis to try to figure out why that player is underperforming and a small suggestion could make a difference.
    The other day I had a Holo that did really low dps on Skorvald for 100CM. Had a look at the breakdown and he was using a ton of hip shots. So I just told him to use bomb kit 1 between Photon Forge activations and his DPS went right up. It still wasn't great, but much better than before.

    This is excellent for a guild group and should always happen, because helping guild members is an investment. They'll get better and your next run will be much better, then the one after it and so on. But helping total randoms is more often than not a waste of time. You not only need to actually parse the logs to see if they are doing something wrong but you also need to know how every build (and have a level of competency) played to identify the problems. Further, the player that is under-performing might not listen at all (play the silent card) or worse yet, argue that their way is better.

  • rabenpriester.7129rabenpriester.7129 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 13, 2018

    @Moogri.1935 said:
    Here's an idea: help the underperforming player get better.

    Why? Do I get paid for that? Don't feel entitled to everyone around you spending their valuable time helping you.

  • @rabenpriester.7129 said:

    @Moogri.1935 said:
    Here's an idea: help the underperforming player get better.

    Why? Do I get paid for that?

    You can. There are people who would (and do) pay for training. There are indirect rewards the community gets when more people can play better: faster fights (and therefore more loot per event, per time) and often, it's more fun for more people. Some people simply like helping others (although that doesn't sound like your cup of tea, which is fine.)

    But the larger point is that some people prefer to complain about things and some prefer to work on changing things for the better. (Nothing wrong with complaining; it just doesn't result as often in things getting better.)

    Hype is the path to the dark side. Hype leads to unfulfilled expectations. Disappointment leads to anger. Anger leads to disgust. Disgust leads to "oh, new shinies! I'm back!"

  • rabenpriester.7129rabenpriester.7129 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 13, 2018

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:Some people simply like helping others (although that doesn't sound like your cup of tea, which is fine.)

    I was actually officially diagnosed with a developing Helper Syndrome, so there's that. Look, I don't mind helping others, but some people (and incidentally the guy I quoted is a good example of such a person) claim the right to get help from good players like ancient lords claimed their tribute from peasants. Doesn't work like that.

    Especially because so many people (and I speak from anecdotal experience here I accumulated over the years) see it as a capital offense and an attack on their personality if you give them advice on their playstyle. I have kicked people out of my guild and friendlist and dropped them faster than hot coal when they displayed arrogance and stubbornness and unwillingness to learn - and it was always the ones that felt especially entitled to rewards and overestimating how good they are and how big their impact was, while in reality they were a burden both psychologically and ingame when it comes to clearing content.

    You have to request help and proof that you're worth it putting time and effort into you. Not demand it.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:
    There are indirect rewards the community gets when more people can play better: faster fights (and therefore more loot per event, per time) and often, it's more fun for more people.

    There are indirect drawbacks too, it encourages players to continue joining groups they aren't supposed to, because you give them the idea that it doesn't matter and someone will help them improve if they are under-performing. If I want experienced players in order to clear content, it stands to reason that only those fitting the description will join and not those that require improvement. If you need to improve, join a training run, or a guild, because as I said, those are investments. You will teach them because you will play with them again in the future.

  • Not beying optimal with DPS can ruin a raid or it just make it a bit longer ? ( new player here )

  • yann.1946yann.1946 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ahrijlaken.9541 said:
    Not beying optimal with DPS can ruin a raid or it just make it a bit longer ? ( new player here )

    Depends on the boss and the group.
    Their are bosses where it doesn't matter at all (Matthias) and bosses where tactics are dps dependent (KC, Gors etc).
    The treshold are very linient tho.

  • @Ahrijlaken.9541 said:
    Not beying optimal with DPS can ruin a raid or it just make it a bit longer ? ( new player here )

    Bosses have an enrage timer, which means after around 10mins the boss gains 300x damage and will start oneshotting people. The requirements to beat the enrage timer are really low though. Doing 10k dps is enough to beat it. Most classes can potentially do 30-40k dps so optimal is never needed, but there is a minimum. Alot of new players do fail to meet this minimum. I imagine OP is one of them.

    Some bosses have mechanics that can be skipped by doing enough damage to bosses to reach a % hp threshold. E.G gorseval which requires around 15kdps. While its not an instant wipe if you fail to get it to the threshold, it involves doing alot of extra mechanics. The reality of this is, if you team doesn't have enough damage to reach the %hp, they arent going to be able to deal with these extra mechanics and will usually wipe regardless.

    In gorsevals case, if you fail to reach 66% hp, (then 33%) you have to take an updraft to avoid a oneshot attack. Orbs are constantly spawning around the arena that need to be killed too. If you are too slow, the orbs will overwhelm you and you will die. Teams that fail to reach 66% in time, will almost guaranteed to be lacking the damage to deal with the orbs.

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