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Systems Team: Why is 15k Coalescence of Ruin fine, but 10k Full Counter needs 66% damage nerf?


Lonecap.4105

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Just wondering? Both are heavy classes. Revenant gets to dish out MASSIVE 10-15k crits at HUGE 1200 range. It's huge damage, it's on a tiny cooldown, you can use it from the safety of big range.

And YET, Full Counter, which could hit for 10-12k ONLY if you stacked EVERY kind of damage-giving trait/food/gear imaginable, has to be used from melee range, inside of an enemy blob, at point blank range, and has triple the cooldown?

I want Irenio or someone to tell me the logic, to tell me why one is fine and the other is too much, why it is SO bad it had to completely ruin any fun you can have on Warrior? Why does the systems team hate Warrior?

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@SkyShroud.2865 said:Because it is nerfed for 1v1, not zerg vs zerg.

Makes sense in this Team mode game to nerf something from an 1on1 perspective.Besides 1on1 its far easier to not proc it as when you have a teamfight anyways.They dont balance around 1on1.

@ProverbsofHell.2307,Because people exaggerate.Saw some guy saying the nerf was needed cus he kept being hit by 15k+ Counters...Righto.Maybe on the first of pof.

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Well if the OP really wanted to know, all they have to do is read both abilities to see the differences, but likely this just another "I got killed by 'x', off to the forums!"

But in good faith, I'll answer with the most obvious differences:

-CoR doesn't crit for 15K in melee range, so the Mesmer/Holo/Thief/SB/Guard in the Revs face would eat about 8k. Sucks to be a Ranger/Necro/Ele who tries to range the Rev.-CoR does damage to 5 targets while FC does damage to 5 targets + interrupts / dazes them + provides stab.

And the most obvious:-CoR crits for 15K at max range as the OP said (though only against someone below 50% health), while Full Counter ABSORBS that 15K crit...or that 18K crit from the Soulbeast, or whatever. 100% damage immunity paired with a (nerfed) attack that hits 5 targets isn't something to dismiss out of hand.

Is the damage nerf to FC too much? No idea.
Is the damage of CoR too high? No idea.You'll find plenty of people arguing both sides, replete with feelings, anecdotal evidence made up statistics.

But CoR vs FC is very much Apples vs. Oranges.

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@Caedmon.6798 said:

@SkyShroud.2865 said:Because it is nerfed for 1v1, not zerg vs zerg.

Makes sense in this Team mode game to nerf something from an 1on1 perspective.Besides 1on1 its far easier to not proc it as when you have a teamfight anyways.They dont balance around 1on1.

@ProverbsofHell.2307,Because people exaggerate.Saw some guy saying the nerf was needed cus he kept being hit by 15k+ Counters...Righto.Maybe on the first of pof.

Doesn't matter is easier or not easier, the fact that it can be proc means that it can work therefore base on anet history of nerfing, they will nerf it if deem overpowering in that situation. In this case, full counter block damage and hit it back hard plus cc. COR doesn't block damage, it hits hard only when you are far. Does COR sounds like a 1v1 skill to you?

Lastly, balance is mostly base on PvP size aka fights where people have more controls and any people with a bit of common sense will know that pvp balance doesn't work with large fights.

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@"Turkeyspit.3965" said:Well if the OP really wanted to know, all they have to do is read both abilities to see the differences, but likely this just another "I got killed by 'x', off to the forums!"

But in good faith, I'll answer with the most obvious differences:

-CoR doesn't crit for 15K in melee range, so the Mesmer/Holo/Thief/SB/Guard in the Revs face would eat about 8k. Sucks to be a Ranger/Necro/Ele who tries to range the Rev.-CoR does damage to 5 targets while FC does damage to 5 targets + interrupts / dazes them + provides stab.

And the most obvious:-CoR crits for 15K at max range as the OP said (though only against someone below 50% health), while Full Counter ABSORBS that 15K crit...or that 18K crit from the Soulbeast, or whatever. 100% damage immunity paired with a (nerfed) attack that hits 5 targets isn't something to dismiss out of hand.

Is the damage nerf to FC too much? No idea.

Is the damage of CoR too high? No idea.You'll find plenty of people arguing both sides, replete with feelings, anecdotal evidence made up statistics.

But CoR vs FC is very much Apples vs. Oranges.

Right, CoR doesn't crit for 15k in melee range. It hits for 15k from the safety of 1200 range, even better!

By the way, I didn't come here butthurt after eating a 15k CoR (although there have been times when I have eaten a 15k CoR), I'm butthurt because my class got euthanised for no reason, even though superior options exist.

By the way, Full Counter doesn't provide stab. IF you trait it, it provides a mere 2 seconds of resistance. Also... in WvW, a daze is nothing. Literally a fart in a jacuzzi. I would be totally happy if the daze was removed, and the damage was restored to its original, because some pathetic CC is nothing in WvW (AKA Stabland) except a waste.

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I think it is like comparing apple and oranges here.I mean I could just be a legit question by saying:Why did we get a full counter dmg nerf, when we at the same time lose extra burst dmg by getting this, and is depending on melee attacks to block.

And the answer might be because it is too punishing a mechanism, hench why the removed some of the “auto”-saving traits.It shall be rewarding to attack, but even more to time attacks.And not too punishing to meet a Spellbreaker who full counter and block :)

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There's never going to be an answer for "why this skill on Profession A" versus "that skill on Profession B." If the balancing team is doing their job, then they are looking at the overall impact of the entire profession, not comparing individual skills or traits.

This doesn't mean that FC's change is good or that CoR's lack of change is good; it just means that I think it's unhelpful to compare them 1:1, out of context.

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@"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:There's never going to be an answer for "why this skill on Profession A" versus "that skill on Profession B." If the balancing team is doing their job, then they are looking at the overall impact of the entire profession, not comparing individual skills or traits.

This doesn't mean that FC's change is good or that CoR's lack of change is good; it just means that I think it's unhelpful to compare them 1:1, out of context.

But the very NATURE of balancing is to compare things. I mean they're both heavy classes, except Warrior is restricted to melee. Warrior is NOT a support profession like Guardian. So I don't think it is unreasonable to compare them, to compare the upper limits of damage among heavy classes.

Some people are saying that Full Counter is fine currently hitting for 4k Full Zerk, while CoR does 15k Full Zerk. They say its because Full Counter lets you avoid damage.

HOWEVER. This completely ignores that CoR is 1200 range, which allows you to avoid the damage in the first place. Full Counter lets you avoid damage, but OF COURSE it does, because to be in melee range is to DIE.

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LOL

  • Full Counter is unblockable, CoR no.
  • Full Counter is a radial AoE, CoR needs aiming as its area of effect is quite narrow.
  • Full Counter absorbs an attack, CoR no.
  • Full Counter dazes/interrupts, CoR no.
  • Full Counter grants stability, CoR no.
  • Full Counter can be traited to apply condis, copy yours and grant boons, CoR no.
  • CoR is bugged with uneven terrain, Full Counter no.
  • CoR has a limit of 1 hit every 0.5s, Full Counter not.

Full Counter is a cheesy skill packed with too many mechanics carrying Spellbreakers in sPvP and small scale fights in WvW. Even after the damage nerf, which was absolutely necessary, the skill still does too much for the little effort it requires.

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@"Ansau.7326" said:LOL

  • Full Counter is unblockable, CoR no. - It's fine for Full Counter to be unblockable, because it is a class mechanic, so having this over CoR is fine
  • Full Counter is a radial AoE, CoR needs aiming as its area of effect is quite narrow. - The aiming doesn't require any more skill than going into melee tbh, the amount of skill is questionable
  • Full Counter absorbs an attack, CoR no. - Again, class mechanic
  • Full Counter dazes/interrupts, CoR no. - Fine, take away the daze and interrupt
  • Full Counter grants stability, CoR no. - 1 whole stack for 2s!
  • Full Counter can be traited to apply condis, copy yours and grant boons, CoR no. - "Apply condis, copy yours"? No, if traited, it copies 3 conditions onto the enemy, which do 0 dmg since you're power spellbreaker (hopefully)
  • CoR is bugged with uneven terrain, Full Counter no. - Deal with it, I deal with warrior leaps/closers, hammer is bugged on warrior too
  • CoR has a limit of 1 hit every 0.5s, Full Counter not. - Ok

Full Counter is a cheesy skill packed with too many mechanics carrying Spellbreakers in sPvP and small scale fights in WvW. Even after the damage nerf, which was absolutely necessary, the skill still does too much for the little effort it requires.

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@Obtena.7952 said:Probably because the comparison isn't even relevant. Call me crazy but it doesn't appear to make sense to balance one skill off another from a different class.It doesnt, though both full counter and the hammer is OP in WvW. Well was. They are very different though - hammer is stupid OP when fully buffed in a zerg scenario, but people dont run it solo/smallscale. Full counter was the opposite. I've seen warriors literally build only around doing full counter and tanking when on cd. It also did alot of things at once instead of just damage.

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@"ProverbsofHell.2307" said:By the way, I didn't come here kitten after eating a 15k CoR (although there have been times when I have eaten a 15k CoR), I'm kitten because my class got euthanised for >no reason, even though superior options exist.

Exactly. That is the problem here. You actually aren't interested in the answer to your question. This thread is just you ranting because of something you perceive as unfair.

I've answered your question already, as have others, but answers aren't really what you are looking for.

At the end of the day, I don't care about what makes you happy or not in this game, and neither does anyone else, including ANET. If you feel the change to FC was unwarranted, then build your case, supply data, and deliver your argument so that the ANET devs have something to look at and chew over. "But mommy, not fair!" is just a waste of everyone's time.

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@Turkeyspit.3965 said:

@"ProverbsofHell.2307" said:By the way, I didn't come here kitten after eating a 15k CoR (although there have been times when I have eaten a 15k CoR), I'm kitten because my class got euthanised for >no reason, even though superior options exist.

Exactly. That is the problem here. You actually aren't interested in the answer to your question. This thread is just you ranting because of something you perceive as unfair.

I've answered your question already, as have others, but answers aren't really what you are looking for.

At the end of the day, I don't care about what makes you happy or not in this game, and neither does anyone else, including ANET. If you feel the change to FC was unwarranted, then build your case, supply data, and deliver your argument so that the ANET devs have something to look at and chew over. "But mommy, not fair!" is just a waste of everyone's time.

Nice strawman!

I already built my case, I'm comparing it to the upper limits of damage among heavy classes and how Warrior has 0 damage despite being restricted to melee. Melee is MUCH harder to play as in WvW than range. It's VERY difficult to land some skills at that range in a laggy blobfight. Full Counter was all we had. Now the class is even more bubblebot only.

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@ProverbsofHell.2307 said:

@ProverbsofHell.2307 said:By the way, I didn't come here kitten after eating a 15k CoR (although there have been times when I have eaten a 15k CoR), I'm kitten because my class got euthanised for >no reason, even though superior options exist.

Exactly. That is the problem here. You actually aren't interested in the answer to your question. This thread is just you ranting because of something you perceive as unfair.

I've answered your question already, as have others, but answers aren't really what you are looking for.

At the end of the day, I don't care about what makes you happy or not in this game, and neither does anyone else, including ANET. If you feel the change to FC was unwarranted, then build your case, supply data, and deliver your argument so that the ANET devs have something to look at and chew over. "But mommy, not fair!" is just a waste of everyone's time.

Nice strawman!

I already built my case, I'm comparing it to the upper limits of damage among heavy classes and how Warrior has 0 damage despite being restricted to melee. Melee is MUCH harder to play as in WvW than range. It's VERY difficult to land some skills at that range in a laggy blobfight. Full Counter was all we had. Now the class is even more bubblebot only.

No it's not when you have 5 gap closers on 6-10 sec cooldown each, 20khp, 4 sec weapon swap and almost 10 seconds of complete damage mitigation. 95% of roamers are using power builds so the fact that endure pain makes you vulnerable to condies is pointless. Let's not forget the fact that it also has pulsing resistance and stab, making it even harder to strip (which is only reliable on the worst roaming class in game).

Try staying in melee on a non-holo build and see how much damage you can do (blinking/disengaging in and out with cheesy 1-shot builds doesnt count as melee).

I wouldn't call it an issue for wvw zergs, but the skill radius didnt fit damage output at all, especially not considering that you can proc it on cooldown. It's still quite easy to trigger on any spvp teamfight on point, and it just does way too much for such damage output and radius, especially when traited. If it was just damage on parried attack it could be justified, but not otherwise.

While nerf was maybe too much, it was definitely needed.

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@ProverbsofHell.2307 said:

@Catchyfx.5768 said:10k is lot for defensive ability.

WOW.

-Keanu Reeves

When FULL glass, and taking EVERY offensive trait. It's not just a defensive ability, it's a CLASS MECHANIC with a HUGE tell.

Even if you felt like it was strong, saying it deserved 66% damage nerf is laughable.

Nothing about warrior is full glass. Literally nothing, especially not spellbreaker.

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@steki.1478 said:

@ProverbsofHell.2307 said:By the way, I didn't come here kitten after eating a 15k CoR (although there have been times when I have eaten a 15k CoR), I'm kitten because my class got euthanised for >no reason, even though superior options exist.

Exactly. That is the problem here. You actually aren't interested in the answer to your question. This thread is just you ranting because of something you perceive as unfair.

I've answered your question already, as have others, but answers aren't really what you are looking for.

At the end of the day, I don't care about what makes you happy or not in this game, and neither does anyone else, including ANET. If you feel the change to FC was unwarranted, then build your case, supply data, and deliver your argument so that the ANET devs have something to look at and chew over. "But mommy, not fair!" is just a waste of everyone's time.

Nice strawman!

I already built my case, I'm comparing it to the upper limits of damage among heavy classes and how Warrior has 0 damage despite being restricted to melee. Melee is MUCH harder to play as in WvW than range. It's VERY difficult to land some skills at that range in a laggy blobfight. Full Counter was all we had. Now the class is even more bubblebot only.

No it's not when you have 5 gap closers on 6-10 sec cooldown each, 20khp, 4 sec weapon swap and almost 10 seconds of complete damage mitigation. 95% of roamers are using power builds so the fact that endure pain makes you vulnerable to condies is pointless. Let's not forget the fact that it also has pulsing resistance and stab, making it even harder to strip (which is only reliable on the worst roaming class in game).

Try staying in melee on a non-holo build and see how much damage you can do (blinking/disengaging in and out with cheesy 1-shot builds doesnt count as melee).

I wouldn't call it an issue for wvw zergs, but the skill radius didnt fit damage output at all, especially not considering that you can proc it on cooldown. It's still quite easy to trigger on any spvp teamfight on point, and it just does way too much for such damage output and radius, especially when traited. If it was just damage on parried attack it could be justified, but not otherwise.

While nerf was maybe too much, it was definitely needed.

Sorry, but you don't know what you're talking about at ALL.

Warrior has at MOST, 3 gap closers. Savage Leap is a buggy 600 range leap which roots you at the beginning and end, and you usually miss its damage delivery too. Also, mainhand sword is a fairly underplayed weapon, with hardly any warriors going outside of Greatsword/Hammer. The only other real gap closer is Greatsword Rush (lol... slow as hell and clunky), and Bull's Charge (which nobody runs except in 1v1).

Also, it's a 5 second weapon swap. And yeah, 10 seconds of damage mitigation. Endure Pain takes up one slot, lasts 5s if traited. With a full 60 second cooldown. You can't spam this shit. Featherfoot has 5s Resistance (NOT pulsing) on a 40 sec cooldown. Defiant Stance is also damage negation for 5s.

Ok, now take away that 10s of invulnerability time and go play Warrior WvW. Go on try it. Prepare to get rekt. You CAN NOT enter melee range if you're not bulletproof. You got 10 seconds to get in and do your bubble and gtfo.

Have you ever played a game which made sense where range did more damage than melee?Range is EASY MODE. Melee actually requires some skill and positioning/strong spacial awareness.

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@ProverbsofHell.2307 said:

@"Ansau.7326" said:LOL
  • Full Counter is unblockable, CoR no. - It's fine for Full Counter to be unblockable, because it is a class mechanic, so having this over CoR is fine
  • Full Counter is a radial AoE, CoR needs aiming as its area of effect is quite narrow. - The aiming doesn't require any more skill than going into melee tbh, the amount of skill is questionable
  • Full Counter absorbs an attack, CoR no. - Again, class mechanic
  • Full Counter dazes/interrupts, CoR no. - Fine, take away the daze and interrupt
  • Full Counter grants stability, CoR no. - 1 whole stack for 2s!
  • Full Counter can be traited to apply condis, copy yours and grant boons, CoR no. - "Apply condis, copy yours"? No, if traited, it copies 3 conditions onto the enemy, which do 0 dmg since you're power spellbreaker (hopefully)
  • CoR is bugged with uneven terrain, Full Counter no. - Deal with it, I deal with warrior leaps/closers, hammer is bugged on warrior too
  • CoR has a limit of 1 hit every 0.5s, Full Counter not. - Ok

Full Counter is a cheesy skill packed with too many mechanics carrying Spellbreakers in sPvP and small scale fights in WvW. Even after the damage nerf, which was absolutely necessary, the skill still does too much for the little effort it requires.

All I see here is you stating 1 of 3 things:

  • something is a class mechanic and as such should be accepted
  • something needs changing
  • someone should deal with something

The differences between FC and CoR are there, we're explained extensively. You are just heavily biased.

You asked a question. That question was answered. It's an apples to oranges comparison.

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@ProverbsofHell.2307 said:

@ProverbsofHell.2307 said:By the way, I didn't come here kitten after eating a 15k CoR (although there have been times when I have eaten a 15k CoR), I'm kitten because my class got euthanised for >no reason, even though superior options exist.

Exactly. That is the problem here. You actually aren't interested in the answer to your question. This thread is just you ranting because of something you perceive as unfair.

I've answered your question already, as have others, but answers aren't really what you are looking for.

At the end of the day, I don't care about what makes you happy or not in this game, and neither does anyone else, including ANET. If you feel the change to FC was unwarranted, then build your case, supply data, and deliver your argument so that the ANET devs have something to look at and chew over. "But mommy, not fair!" is just a waste of everyone's time.

Nice strawman!

I already built my case, I'm comparing it to the upper limits of damage among heavy classes and how Warrior has 0 damage despite being restricted to melee. Melee is MUCH harder to play as in WvW than range. It's VERY difficult to land some skills at that range in a laggy blobfight. Full Counter was all we had. Now the class is even more bubblebot only.

It is nice, because it's true. The comparison doesn't make sense.

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