The new balance - a conclusion — Guild Wars 2 Forums

The new balance - a conclusion

Hey,

after giving the new meta a few days of my life spend theorycrafting, tried out several different comps. Theres one thing thats become crystal clear to me.

Balance team and raid/fractal design team do NOT talk with each other.

The biggest issue with the current balancing, and something the balance team really SHOULD have been able to foresee, is that you get punished hard everytime you have to leave the group "stack" for some mechanic. You leave with minimal boon duration left on you, have to survive somehow doing your "thing", and you come back without any boons most of the time. And of course, mechanics usually are staggered, so that means, if you are unlucky enough, you are the poor guy that has to wait 20seconds SoI extension of any boons you might get while waiting, meaning you are left with low might, low fury uptime, low protection uptime, etc.

Now, most raid encounters and a lot of fractal encounters, as well as most fractal instabilities FORCE you to leave the stack, or prevent you from stacking tightly in the first place. This dichotomy makes for very unpleasant gameplay.

On top of that some boons are so elusive (fury, vigor, stability), or one build is so OP at providing them (druid -> might, herald -> protection/fury) that it really limits any kind of alternative comp.

All in all, current balancing might not make raiding impossible. But it sure makes it unpleasant, unfun and frustrating. Especially if you are trying to optimize squad dps.

<13

Comments

  • Knox.8962Knox.8962 Member ✭✭✭

    Sounds like that's a significant drawback of running a 2 chrono comp.

    FBs make might, fury and quickness every 8s.

  • Morte de Angelis.7986Morte de Angelis.7986 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 18, 2018

    You mean the Chrono has a weakness in its boon application, interesting tell me more.

    There have been some solutions that I've seen that look pretty good for solving the well issue. Such as making wells tick or giving them a larger radius.
    This would still tie in to the drawback they currently have, poor on-the-move application of Quickness / Alacrity, but make moving less punishing but spreading out the application so it isn't all tied to the end tick of the well.

    You could also take Time Warp and use Shield 5 to apply the first set of boons. That way you can gurantee (almost) that everyone will have the boons on them for the first use of SoI and it being much quicker to apply then waiting for the wells.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Increase well size by 20%.

    Make wells tick their boons.

    Keep chrono cc lower as is right now.

    Remove Signet of Inspiration from any rotation as to remove core build contamination and power creep interactions with elite specializations. Also rework SoI so it doesn't promote massive boon geemneration from builds that have no boon duration.

    This puts chrono in a better spot as duo combo for fights where stacking is possible yet keeps Firebrand and Renegade for everything else since they require near no stacking. Fb+renegade comp was as strong as druid+chrono last patch if not stronfer (only that chrono started to share all boons and people are used to chrono).

    Fb+Ren can achieve perma boon without committing to 100% boon duration, chrono can not (and should not). This gives Fb+Ren an itemization advantage.

    When rebalancung Fb (since the build is insanely op atm) don't over do it and keep their ability to provide permanent quickness.

  • Yasi.9065Yasi.9065 Member ✭✭✭

    Problem is that the re-application time of boons is too long with chrono, but ren/fb comp struggles to reach 100% uptime on might, fury, protection and 25 might.

    Believe me, 20 seconds is a really long time without protection if you come back just when stonespirit dies without any boons on you. Not to mention how much your dps suffers without fury/quickness/might.

    Alacrity has a bigger stacksize, so you can stack it high enough to survive most mechanics. Its atm the least problematic boon imo.

  • Setz.9675Setz.9675 Member ✭✭✭

    Don't even know where to start with this hot mess.

    If not having permanent protection is an issue go bring a hammer guard.
    If quickness is an issue instead of 2 druids take 1 druid 1 firebrand (for fotm dont take the druid and use a FB instead). Previously mentioned guard could take Feel my wrath elite shout.
    If vigor is an issue druid could take Spirited Arrival over Windborne notes to get 16s of vigor for the party every 20s for simply swapping a pet. Or have engi take medkit (infusion bomb, AoE 10s vigor, 30s cd)

    @Yasi.9065 said:
    On top of that some boons are so elusive (fury, vigor, stability), or one build is so OP at providing them (druid -> might, herald -> protection/fury) that it really limits any kind of alternative comp.

    Druid providing might or herald providing prot/fury is OP but chrono providing LITERALLY EVERYTHING is the baseline right? its meta dont change it. rofl

    All in all, current balancing might not make raiding impossible. But it sure makes it unpleasant, unfun and frustrating. Especially if you are trying to optimize squad dps.

    My english isnt good enough to properly mock this, again not Anets fault that you cant make adjustments.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ertrak.9506 said:
    I guess its finally time to think outside the box a little and actually solve that problem rather than whining, hm?

    Are you talking to Mesmer players or Arenanet?

    You do understand that the Mesmer community has had 0 influence on any balance changes over the last year right?

    Or are you going to blame players for balance changes they had 0 influence on?

  • @Morte de Angelis.7986 said:
    You mean the Chrono has a weakness in its boon application, interesting tell me more.

    There have been some solutions that I've seen that look pretty good for solving the well issue. Such as making wells tick or giving them a larger radius.
    This would still tie in to the drawback they currently have, poor on-the-move application of Quickness / Alacrity, but make moving less punishing but spreading out the application so it isn't all tied to the end tick of the well.

    You could also take Time Warp and use Shield 5 to apply the first set of boons. That way you can gurantee (almost) that everyone will have the boons on them for the first use of SoI and it being much quicker to apply then waiting for the wells.

    So far I know rev has everything you mentioned mainly most boons comes instantly : https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/revenant/herald/support/
    The reason nobody picked it earlier is no boonsharing , a bit less cc and nearly no utility

    In the other thread we already disgust the combo of FB + Rev which is actually the wvw meta but there is a lots of problems with this :
    1.) Still no boonsharing this is important because even if you stack at the beginning of a fight there are a lot of encounter were you keep dodging/running /jumping the whole fight actually I think this is the biggest hit which came with the patch. I also noticed that the fractals who had rework meaning Mai Trin and Molton Boss got some of their pre stack possibilities removed with it. I still I agee constantly reapplying the boons will help or it is at least better then before but this doesn't solve the main issues.

    2.) This meta isn't safe if you would take the developers by the word they would need to also nerf FB and Rev into the ground.

    3.)The built isn't safe means the developers said they want to introduce new star combination by my guess properly for rev something like berserker + concentration or viper + concentration because funny the rev and the FB are both healer with harrier stats. (or FB as condi DD but this has also short coming mainly no real stabi)

    4.) You don't get players who have this easily, for FB you could simply change a DH by using new equip but Revs ? Really the only revs I see playing are in wvw and they won't give you their players.( this would be easier if the wvw and the fractals wouldn't have different infusions)

    5.) This patch isn't safe so ridiculous it sounds ^^ It is many years ago since I saw a patch this broken in an MMO. The developers there also thought we want to make the content more challenging because this f2p had ever increasing stats which resulted in a huge mana pool the developer thought hm lets the spells consume % amount of the mana with each use. Can you guess what they forgot ?

    (spoiler)

    Resolution : The normal mana potions had still a fixed amount of mana regeneration which were also way too low for the increased stats. Result you burned through a whole stack of potion(99st) after 10 minutes by just doing dailies . You could play the game but is it fun? Players said no stopped login in , CEO in panic , patch got undone.

    This here isn't as bad because people still doing raids and still trying to find fun in the fractals also the problem is really endcontent specific also the metric is possible messed up because Arena NET could be thinking people are just in holiday or just doing winterday and then there are people who are responsible in holiday .

    My guess is at some point people will stop running certain content and it will be show up in the metrics sooner or later and then yeah panic..... This is also have tried fractals today again after the 7ten wipe I could only say I'm sry but this is awful.

    If this wouldn't be so frustrating this would be a great source for jokes and puns like : We have true agony in the fractals now not that VR rubbish.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 18, 2018

    @Yasi.9065 said:
    Im sorry to burst that bubble, but Im actually quite proficient in theorycrafting, come up with builds usually by myself and/or adjust builds to work for me. I never copy builds from anywhere. I take "those" builds as pointers and integrate them - or not.

    That's maybe why you have such a difficult time ... being successful in raids isn't about any individual persons build. You're not going 'theorycraft' your way into success because it's not enough to be successful. In fact I would hypothesize that it's a waste of time of theorycraft to attempt finding success because you don't need it.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Yasi.9065 said:
    Im sorry to burst that bubble, but Im actually quite proficient in theorycrafting, come up with builds usually by myself and/or adjust builds to work for me. I never copy builds from anywhere. I take "those" builds as pointers and integrate them - or not.

    That's maybe why you have such a difficult time ... being successful in raids isn't about any individual persons build. You're not going 'theorycraft' your way into success because it's not enough to be successful. In fact I would hypothesize that it's a waste of time of theorycraft to attempt finding success because you don't need it.

    Maybe that's why he mentioned his static and cooperating with another chrono and changing classes? Just my guess.

    Every build starts out as theory until tested unless you get super lucky and find the right set of traits, skills, gear and class composition via pure luck. Highly unlikely I might add.

  • Zhaid Zhem.6508Zhaid Zhem.6508 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 19, 2018

    http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vlAQNAscmnXMnNSumzJRZzNlst5oSY38UJ4bOskFNl6PIPylsdACgGYtJmiqA-jBhXAB6eCA8X9nQfAAAs/AA-e Dedicated Healer
    You can also take Invocation if you have issue with energy, you lose the +150 ferocity but it helps a lot if you need more CC, more heals etc.
    +
    http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vVAQRAnf7fnsADFBjdBDODBEEhF/BzKAUBqTZJhKUGavimRHpA-jhgEhAAq/Yu/AA-e DPS/support. There is a variant "Power" DPS with harrier + zeal retaliation ; more heals more boons, but big DPS drop.
    Perma alacrity, perma quickness, perma retaliation, perma regen, perma fury, perma protection, 25 might, aegis (or stab etc, talk to the FB), condi cleanse, projectile hate, +150 ferocity, Soulcleave's summit, CC with FB axe renegade staff and darkazor (careful about energy)...

    HoT is over guys, bye bye chrono, time to see further than the tip of your nose.

    There is solutions, may be it's not as easy to play (I really doubt about renegade +fb, but each his own) or as obvious.
    But flaming compo you obviously didn't try, and claim the game is broken when visibly you just argue about chrono, won't help.

  • rabenpriester.7129rabenpriester.7129 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 19, 2018

    No good pulls, no entangles, no spirits (ress spirit? cc from storm?), lower CC, no good pushes, no active damage mitigation/blocks/distortion for tank, awkward use of buffs (mantra aoe, renegade alacrity aoe and their respective ranges), awkward mechanics like renegade energy management that reduce how freely you can use your already limited utility, low base hp and armor... and a million other things I forgot. We've been through this list a million times.

    Forced to go 2x firebrand means you'll run 4x hybrid builds if you want druid buffs, resulting in overall less personal damage, less utility and less group damage.

    Don't act as if these builds were something new that no one thought about. They just aren't good enough. But it seems like you hate Chronos and chrono players enough to play them out of spite based on your "bye bye chrono", so play what you want and feel free to dismiss the better, yet still bad build. But please don't act as if yours was superior. :D

    I'd happily play fb+rene if it was any good or fun to play, preferrably both. It is neither. :)

  • Grogba.6204Grogba.6204 Member ✭✭✭

    @Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:
    http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vlAQNAscmnXMnNSumzJRZzNlst5oSY38UJ4bOskFNl6PIPylsdACgGYtJmiqA-jBhXAB6eCA8X9nQfAAAs/AA-e Dedicated Healer
    You can also take Invocation if you have issue with energy, you lose the +150 ferocity but it helps a lot if you need more CC, more heals etc.
    +
    http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vVAQRAnf7fnsADFBjdBDODBEEhF/BzKAUBqTZJhKUGavimRHpA-jhgEhAAq/Yu/AA-e DPS/support. There is a variant "Power" DPS with harrier + zeal retaliation ; more heals more boons, but big DPS drop.
    Perma alacrity, perma quickness, perma retaliation, perma regen, perma fury, perma protection, 25 might, aegis (or stab etc, talk to the FB), condi cleanse, projectile hate, +150 ferocity, Soulcleave's summit, CC with FB axe renegade staff and darkazor (careful about energy)...

    HoT is over guys, bye bye chrono, time to see further than the tip of your nose.

    And who do you think will play them? Who do you think will cover the support role in squads? (Hint, it's the same players who played support - Chrono among them - beforehand.)

    Do you really think there have been Firebrand/Renegades in hiding the past couple months who will now happily enter raid/fractal groups left of right because the evil chrono overlords are gone?

    Remove Chronojail and add Renegade/Firebrand jail. Amazing. Way to shift a problem rather than solving it. Also not going into what's wrong with Firebrand/Renegade from a playability PoV as that is another wall of text on its own.

  • Zhaid Zhem.6508Zhaid Zhem.6508 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 19, 2018

    @Grogba.6204 said:
    And who do you think will play them? Who do you think will cover the support role in squads? (Hint, it's the same players who played support - Chrono among them - beforehand.)

    ? Rev or FB, I wrote it.

    Do you really think there have been Firebrand/Renegades in hiding the past couple months who will now happily enter raid/fractal groups left of right because the evil chrono overlords are gone?

    Do you really think there were magi or cleric ranger, and concentration mesmer waiting for Hot and raids release ? What the point is this argument ? No I don't think there are that much people ; may be some guys who didn't wait for Uber guilds to do the job for them. And so ... ?
    Change classes, change builds, change gear, change attitude, because nerfs, up and needs have change Meta ? No. Better, keep whining about dead chrono. Better play the same build all over again after 3 years.

    Remove Chronojail and add Renegade/Firebrand jail. Amazing. Way to shift a problem rather than solving it. Also not going into what's wrong with Firebrand/Renegade from a playability PoV as that is another wall of text on its own.

    Revert patch will help, for sure.

  • Zhaid Zhem.6508Zhaid Zhem.6508 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 19, 2018

    @rabenpriester.7129 said:
    No good pulls, no entangles, no spirits (ress spirit? cc from storm?), lower CC, no good pushes, no active damage mitigation/blocks/distortion for tank, awkward use of buffs (mantra aoe, renegade alacrity aoe and their respective ranges), awkward mechanics like renegade energy management that reduce how freely you can use your already limited utility, low base hp and armor... and a million other things I forgot. We've been through this list a million times.

    Forced to go 2x firebrand means you'll run 4x hybrid builds if you want druid buffs, resulting in overall less personal damage, less utility and less group damage.

    Don't act as if these builds were something new that no one thought about. They just aren't good enough. But it seems like you hate Chronos and chrono players enough to play them out of spite based on your "bye bye chrono", so play what you want and feel free to dismiss the better, yet still bad build. But please don't act as if yours was superior. :D

    I'd happily play fb+rene if it was any good or fun to play, preferrably both. It is neither. :)

    There are not, because people don't build on them. (Like, the +100 precision)
    In cm's druid + chrono is trash since the first day. Chrono DPS is trash, druid dps is trash, druid heal is not constant, war DPS is often trash, you lose 2 slots to support 2 DPS and a war. Did or do we see Harrier/Minstrel chrono ? Why ? Because people have copy/paste raid compo without thinking*. You were like "I'm chrono healer _Okai but we need a druid for frost spirit and mights" And you're like "Do you even Math ????????" War doesn't need rune of strenght to take the shout and be PS (actually it's even easier since the patch) (at worst it is worth than burden druid)
    In raid I'm okai, with Kiting, mobile boss, various phases ... Ventari's skills are akward to manage and FB's mantra need a proper placement. Otherwise range is same as wells.

    Forced to go 2x firebrand means you'll run 4x hybrid builds if you want druid buffs, resulting in overall less personal damage, less utility and less group damage.

    But in raid, once again do we need to copy/paste group 1 to group 2? Ren+FB is (A healer + middling DPS) perma quickness+alacrity+fury+might+retaliation+prot+... it fills easily a Melee focused group; because yes, it is good. Druid/soulbeast and chrono can fill the other with war *and keep add 10 allies spirits etc, pull with focus, take aggro, agony, shroom whatever + the ren can help with alacrity to 10 players, so chrono can focus on mimic and time warp for example ...

    Actually I don't see here people looking for a new composition, I see people looking for the same meta but how to fix chrono. It's not my definition of Balance.

  • Hot Boy.7138Hot Boy.7138 Member ✭✭✭

    boon share should have a 1200 range, for all boons.

  • Rodrick.1942Rodrick.1942 Member ✭✭✭

    @Grogba.6204 said:

    @Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:
    http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vlAQNAscmnXMnNSumzJRZzNlst5oSY38UJ4bOskFNl6PIPylsdACgGYtJmiqA-jBhXAB6eCA8X9nQfAAAs/AA-e Dedicated Healer
    You can also take Invocation if you have issue with energy, you lose the +150 ferocity but it helps a lot if you need more CC, more heals etc.
    +
    http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vVAQRAnf7fnsADFBjdBDODBEEhF/BzKAUBqTZJhKUGavimRHpA-jhgEhAAq/Yu/AA-e DPS/support. There is a variant "Power" DPS with harrier + zeal retaliation ; more heals more boons, but big DPS drop.
    Perma alacrity, perma quickness, perma retaliation, perma regen, perma fury, perma protection, 25 might, aegis (or stab etc, talk to the FB), condi cleanse, projectile hate, +150 ferocity, Soulcleave's summit, CC with FB axe renegade staff and darkazor (careful about energy)...

    HoT is over guys, bye bye chrono, time to see further than the tip of your nose.

    And who do you think will play them? Who do you think will cover the support role in squads? (Hint, it's the same players who played support - Chrono among them - beforehand.)

    Do you really think there have been Firebrand/Renegades in hiding the past couple months who will now happily enter raid/fractal groups left of right because the evil chrono overlords are gone?

    Remove Chronojail and add Renegade/Firebrand jail. Amazing. Way to shift a problem rather than solving it. Also not going into what's wrong with Firebrand/Renegade from a playability PoV as that is another wall of text on its own.

    To answer your questions, ive been practice boon/heal FB for a couple months in fractal , now working on raid. Ive also met awesome rev player before and learn something I never think about it. The only problem is we both always lurking in the shadow because chrono/druid dominated the market before.

    Now our time has come , get used to it.

  • Eramonster.2718Eramonster.2718 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Boons has always been vital. The patch toned down chrono's boon sharing capabilities. What OP and players are experiencing is the absence of constant boons.

    Chrono was upholding all boons previously making the class overturned. To change that, traits and SoI was toned down. Which resulted; Mimic was brought in, and one needed to go.

    The playerbase has been giving constructive suggestions along the road the entire time. To now pretend that all Mesmers do is whine is a kitten move. Especially since the majority of whining came from a lot of other players about balance, something which Mesmer players also had no influence on.

    Some chrono defence are contradicting their own words in their same post is giving bad vibes. (Eg. Playing the weak victim card, but justifying they should remain strong. So are they weak or strong? :lol:)

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    I don't see a reason they need to ... it's not like there are so few comps that can complete content where raids need to be toned down to those comps. Maybe if people didn't try to just play how some website tells them, they would realize there ARE solutions to complete content outside of their narrow ideas of what they have been told is optimal.

    See, this is the problem with pushing meta ... hardly any players know how to figure out how to play for themselves anymore. The can't figure out what to do when something changes.

    The problem lies in the boons quantity & uptime. Many players are trying to fix chrono than fixing the real problem :smile:.

    From the look, FB will be essential with the only class capable of sharing aegis and quickness reliably.

  • @Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:

    @rabenpriester.7129 said:
    No good pulls, no entangles, no spirits (ress spirit? cc from storm?), lower CC, no good pushes, no active damage mitigation/blocks/distortion for tank, awkward use of buffs (mantra aoe, renegade alacrity aoe and their respective ranges), awkward mechanics like renegade energy management that reduce how freely you can use your already limited utility, low base hp and armor... and a million other things I forgot. We've been through this list a million times.

    Forced to go 2x firebrand means you'll run 4x hybrid builds if you want druid buffs, resulting in overall less personal damage, less utility and less group damage.

    Don't act as if these builds were something new that no one thought about. They just aren't good enough. But it seems like you hate Chronos and chrono players enough to play them out of spite based on your "bye bye chrono", so play what you want and feel free to dismiss the better, yet still bad build. But please don't act as if yours was superior. :D

    I'd happily play fb+rene if it was any good or fun to play, preferrably both. It is neither. :)

    There are not, because people don't build on them. (Like, the +100 precision)
    In cm's druid + chrono is trash since the first day. Chrono DPS is trash, druid dps is trash, druid heal is not constant, war DPS is often trash, you lose 2 slots to support 2 DPS and a war. Did or do we see Harrier/Minstrel chrono ? Why ? Because people have copy/paste raid compo without reflexion. You were like "I'm chrono healer _Okai but we need a druid for frost spirit and mights" And you're like "Do you even Math ????????" War doesn't need rune of strenght to take the shout and be PS (actually it's even easier since the patch)
    In raid I'm okai, with Kiting, mobile boss, various phases ... Ventari's skills are akward to manage and FB's mantra need a proper placement. Otherwise range is same as wells.

    Forced to go 2x firebrand means you'll run 4x hybrid builds if you want druid buffs, resulting in overall less personal damage, less utility and less group damage.

    But in raid, once again do we need to copy/paste group 1 to group 2. Ren+FB is (A healer + middling DPS) perma quickness+alacrity+fury+might+retaliation+prot+... it fills easily a Melee focused group; because yes, it is good. Druid/soulbeast and chrono can fill the other with war *and keep add 10 allies spirits etc, pull with focus, take aggro.

    Actually I don't see here people looking for a new composition, I see people looking for the same meta but how to fix chrono. It's not my definition of Balance.

    You can run one group with a FB Heal/tank/support then depending how much alacrity and if you need more might you can choose between chrono and rev
    The other group has a only an condi FB with the rune for perma quickness the rest stays as it is. This is just the trade off in raids you can make either more reliable boons or more base dmg. Which cost you 1 slot more then before and for some not even that some guild running with 2 druids or 1 druids and 1 FB since forever.

    Nobody is happy about this with just this 6 classes are already set in stone and I'm sure there will something come around like we need more might over all we need a Tempest for pre stack might or we need a Soulbeast with spirits or something I would calculate with 3 free dps slots you can juggle around with.

    The fractal meta is even better with fb + rev again the Soulbeast for spirits , DPS chrono for utility then BS .. ..... the main DPS doesn't fit in here anymore :s

  • sigur.9453sigur.9453 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 19, 2018

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    I don't see a reason they need to ... it's not like there are so few comps that can complete content where raids need to be toned down to those comps. Maybe if people didn't try to just play how some website tells them, they would realize there ARE solutions to complete content outside of their narrow ideas of what they have been told is optimal.

    See, this is the problem with pushing meta ... hardly any players know how to figure out how to play for themselves anymore. The can't figure out what to do when something changes.

    for a lot of people it isn´t about completing the content anymore, if you are just in for the loot, maybe it isn´t the right content for you anyway. you can pretty much kill almost every boss with 10 necros autoatacking, but would that be fun? and thats the problem right now, you can either choose to play without optimal boons which is super akward and feels cluncky or play a super strict settup that make anoying (yes there are no hard mechanics, just anoying ones) mechanics even more anoying. missing out alc/quickness especially when you simply went for deleting a bomb at sabetha is the wort feeling ever. doing mechanics should be rewarding not punishing for your own gameplay expierience,

  • sigur.9453sigur.9453 Member ✭✭✭

    @Nimon.7840 said:
    Finally chrono is nerfed after 3 years.

    It was way to overpowered.

    All I hear from original post is like: I wanna get the op chrono back, cause we are too bad to play without.

    "All in all, current balancing might not make raiding impossible. But it sure makes it unpleasant, unfun and frustrating. Especially if you are trying to optimize squad dps"

    read again. its about optimizing. its also a rich statement comming from someone that was outrageous after the epi nerf.

  • Zunki.3916Zunki.3916 Member ✭✭✭

    It's pretty easy to me: Increase all/most buff mechanics to 900 radius at least for PvE. It bothered me from start that most of ele buffs (and obviuosly others) are at a 180/240 radius and this forces to stack. I don't understand why Anet feels stacking for every encounter is somehow fun or good gameplay.

    Viable != Optimal

    Not viable = You only get carried, 10 players with a build as "viable as yours" can't properly do it.

  • Nimon.7840Nimon.7840 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @sigur.9453 said:

    @Nimon.7840 said:
    Finally chrono is nerfed after 3 years.

    It was way to overpowered.

    All I hear from original post is like: I wanna get the op chrono back, cause we are too bad to play without.

    "All in all, current balancing might not make raiding impossible. But it sure makes it unpleasant, unfun and frustrating. Especially if you are trying to optimize squad dps"

    read again. its about optimizing. its also a rich statement comming from someone that was outrageous after the epi nerf.

    I wasn't outrageous about the epi nerf but about, how it was done, because the addcleave also was nerfed.

    Also if you speak about optimizing DPS.
    With double firebrand +1 renegade +1 druid you actually gain DPS.
    Because these 2 firebrands together can easily do the same DPS as 1,5 regular DPS players.
    While giving quickness every 8 seconds.

    Before you had 2 chronos, one doing no DPS, and the other one doing maximum DPS of a half DPS player.
    So if you played double healers, then they wouldn't do DPS either. So you have 0.5dmg dealers this way.
    While firebrand comp has 1.5

    So now you could argue, that you only play one healer.
    Now they would be even, but you then have to compare it with only one healer in the firebrand comp as well. So renegade could play dps-buffer adding another 0.5 DPS dealer.

    So in terms of the amount of damage dealers, you will definetly do more DPS by playing with firebrands.

    The only issue could be, that if someone has to go away from the squad, that player will almost instantly loose all his boons and is slower in doing sab-cannons for example.
    But as soon as he joins the squad again, he'll have his boons back up after 8 seconds.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Nimon.7840 said:

    @sigur.9453 said:

    @Nimon.7840 said:
    Finally chrono is nerfed after 3 years.

    It was way to overpowered.

    All I hear from original post is like: I wanna get the op chrono back, cause we are too bad to play without.

    "All in all, current balancing might not make raiding impossible. But it sure makes it unpleasant, unfun and frustrating. Especially if you are trying to optimize squad dps"

    read again. its about optimizing. its also a rich statement comming from someone that was outrageous after the epi nerf.

    I wasn't outrageous about the epi nerf but about, how it was done, because the addcleave also was nerfed.

    Also if you speak about optimizing DPS.
    With double firebrand +1 renegade +1 druid you actually gain DPS.
    Because these 2 firebrands together can easily do the same DPS as 1,5 regular DPS players.
    While giving quickness every 8 seconds.

    Before you had 2 chronos, one doing no DPS, and the other one doing maximum DPS of a half DPS player.
    So if you played double healers, then they wouldn't do DPS either. So you have 0.5dmg dealers this way.
    While firebrand comp has 1.5

    So now you could argue, that you only play one healer.
    Now they would be even, but you then have to compare it with only one healer in the firebrand comp as well. So renegade could play dps-buffer adding another 0.5 DPS dealer.

    So in terms of the amount of damage dealers, you will definetly do more DPS by playing with firebrands.

    The only issue could be, that if someone has to go away from the squad, that player will almost instantly loose all his boons and is slower in doing sab-cannons for example.
    But as soon as he joins the squad again, he'll have his boons back up after 8 seconds.

    So what prevented your group from playing Firebrand+ Renegade before this patch? It was absolutely viable then too. Let me guess, you ran double chrono.

    Nobody asked for all boons on chrono. People made due (and solo chrono quickness up-time hasn't been permanent since 2 patches ago) as a result of an improper balance patch.

    Don't worry, Firebrand is so overpowered, in 2-3 months when the dust has settled, there will be some changes made to that class (it has been overpowered for 3-4 patches now. Chrono was simply more useful in fractals and raids). Same goes for renegade (though less overpowered compared to Firebrand, and less played). Obviously chrono is going to get nerfed again since the current 7 mesmer meta should not be (which it really shouldn't).

  • Chrono wont be saved its obviusly and i doubt fb and ren will keep get to be replacement since anet will balance them to the same way

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Yasi.9065 said:
    Quickness on chrono is way more difficult to maintain than alacrity btw.

    While I like the input you guys are trying to give, believe me, I considered it all already, tried several comps with my static that made it past planning stage. And so far each and every comp came with problematic downsides.

    Ren/FB cant stack up boons long enough to leave for mechanics, chrono/druid cant re-apply boons fast enough when stripped due to mechanics. This directly influences your squad dps and your dmg taken.

    As such the most viable all boss meta currently is:
    1-2 chrono (tank+support)
    2-5 dps chrono (power chrono for pdps, mirage for cdps) for SoI boon copy
    1 banner slave
    2 healers

    and thus we are back to a more restrictive meta where 2-3 dps slots are replaceable for random dps classes while the rest is fixed.

  • Yasi.9065Yasi.9065 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 19, 2018

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Yasi.9065 said:
    Quickness on chrono is way more difficult to maintain than alacrity btw.

    While I like the input you guys are trying to give, believe me, I considered it all already, tried several comps with my static that made it past planning stage. And so far each and every comp came with problematic downsides.

    Ren/FB cant stack up boons long enough to leave for mechanics, chrono/druid cant re-apply boons fast enough when stripped due to mechanics. This directly influences your squad dps and your dmg taken.

    As such the most viable all boss meta currently is:
    1-2 chrono (tank+support)
    2-5 dps chrono (power chrono for pdps, mirage for cdps) for SoI boon copy
    1 banner slave
    2 healers

    and thus we are back to a more restrictive meta where 2-3 dps slots are replaceable for random dps classes while the rest is fixed.

    You need 1 healer max, and tbh, with 2x harrier/giver support chronos not even that. Fury can be covered with banner of discipline until boss health < 75% and might from sword phantasm gets extended enough so you dont need a might stacker. Frost spirit isnt quite as good on dps chronos since it doesnt affect illus.

    Chrono dps however has its own downsides and only really shines on golem bosses. Everything with short phases results in mediocre to suboptimal dps.

    But yes, currently the solution to all problems with ren/fb comp, is to just throw dps chronos at it.... Which just in itself is so infuriating and WILL be patched in mid of january, wanna bet? Most likely by adding concentration scaling to SoI. Because anet cant tough fb/ren, its after all the comp they want to promote to meta.

  • phs.6089phs.6089 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I'll repeat this: the message was loud and clear.
    Give your HoT classes a rest, PoF is out for a year now.
    Try and see what you can do.

    "There is always a lighthouse, there's always a man, there's always a city."

  • Laila Lightness.8742Laila Lightness.8742 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 19, 2018

    @Yasi.9065 said:

    @Nimon.7840 said:
    All I hear from original post is like: I wanna get the op chrono back, cause we are too bad to play without.

    What... the...? What does an obvious disconnect between balance team and content design team have to do with me wanting -according to you- chrono back? I dont btw. Im quite happy with the majority of changes, most of them I actually asked for quite vocally here and on reddit. Namely the nerfs to cc and stability/resistance spamming.

    What anet did, however, was leave us for at least a month with an incomplete balance patch that didnt solve the problems of fb/ren comp - which btw I also tried repeatedly to bring to attention - while changing chrono in a way that still makes chrono mandatory, but now just worse to play on most raid encounters.

    All your celebration on how chrono is dead, btw, is at least a month too early, because until next balance patch, the pug meta will be:
    2 boon chronos
    1 druid
    1 healer
    1 power BS
    5 DPS

    With more mechanics getting shifted from chrono onto BS/DPS (and yes, most likely onto scourge, since its perceived lowest boss dps).

    For speedclears it will be:
    2 boon chronos
    1 druid
    1 BS
    6 DPS

    Remind you of something?

    Soon it be 1ren,2fb. Bs. 6dps(druid is not really viable 5% dont do more dps than 1 more dps and its boons is rather generic fb and ren can easly upkeep it better than druid)

  • Yasi.9065Yasi.9065 Member ✭✭✭

    @phs.6089 said:
    I'll repeat this: the message was loud and clear.
    Give your HoT classes a rest, PoF is out for a year now.
    Try and see what you can do.

    I tried. Repeatedly. It only works on some raidbosses, and then only with a very very fixed comp that supplies missing utility/boons. Because anet didnt solve the problems of that comp, they just threw more aegis/stab/dps at it and tried to nerf the hot competition enough to make the pof variant look better.

    Id love for fb/ren to be a thing. I love playing alacrity renegade (both harrier and condi) and firebrand is just so op. If the game was only about quickness, alacrity, stability and aegis... fb/ren comp would win hands down. But it isnt. Its also about being able to stack boons to leave to do mechanics, its about being able to bring additional utility, while doing your "core" job.

    @Laila Lightness.8742 said:
    Soon it be 1ren,2fb. Bs. 6dps

    Soon alliances will be released.

  • phs.6089phs.6089 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 19, 2018

    @Yasi.9065 said:

    @phs.6089 said:
    I'll repeat this: the message was loud and clear.
    Give your HoT classes a rest, PoF is out for a year now.
    Try and see what you can do.

    I tried. Repeatedly. It only works on some raidbosses, and then only with a very very fixed comp that supplies missing utility/boons. Because anet didnt solve the problems of that comp, they just threw more aegis/stab/dps at it and tried to nerf the hot competition enough to make the pof variant look better.

    Id love for fb/ren to be a thing. I love playing alacrity renegade (both harrier and condi) and firebrand is just so op. If the game was only about quickness, alacrity, stability and aegis... fb/ren comp would win hands down. But it isnt. Its also about being able to stack boons to leave to do mechanics, its about being able to bring additional utility, while doing your "core" job.

    So, what happened to 'Raids are easy AF?' If a single class could cheeze it to the grade of being easy AF, clearly there was something wrong, no?

    This reminds me days Brawler was introduced in Tera and Mystic got Revamp
    You could slap a mystic with 4 brawlers and there was nothing that this composition couldn't clear.

    New dungeon came with brawler and 'slaying run' was done in under 6 hours. There were 'sigils' that increase your crit damage if your HP was below 50% they called 'slaying'

    "There is always a lighthouse, there's always a man, there's always a city."

  • @phs.6089 said:

    @Yasi.9065 said:

    @phs.6089 said:
    I'll repeat this: the message was loud and clear.
    Give your HoT classes a rest, PoF is out for a year now.
    Try and see what you can do.

    I tried. Repeatedly. It only works on some raidbosses, and then only with a very very fixed comp that supplies missing utility/boons. Because anet didnt solve the problems of that comp, they just threw more aegis/stab/dps at it and tried to nerf the hot competition enough to make the pof variant look better.

    Id love for fb/ren to be a thing. I love playing alacrity renegade (both harrier and condi) and firebrand is just so op. If the game was only about quickness, alacrity, stability and aegis... fb/ren comp would win hands down. But it isnt. Its also about being able to stack boons to leave to do mechanics, its about being able to bring additional utility, while doing your "core" job.

    So, what happened to 'Raids are easy AF?' If a single class could cheeze it to the grade of being easy AF, clearly there was something wrong, no?

    Now firebrand ren will cheese so lets balance them too ☺

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Yasi.9065 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Yasi.9065 said:
    Quickness on chrono is way more difficult to maintain than alacrity btw.

    While I like the input you guys are trying to give, believe me, I considered it all already, tried several comps with my static that made it past planning stage. And so far each and every comp came with problematic downsides.

    Ren/FB cant stack up boons long enough to leave for mechanics, chrono/druid cant re-apply boons fast enough when stripped due to mechanics. This directly influences your squad dps and your dmg taken.

    As such the most viable all boss meta currently is:
    1-2 chrono (tank+support)
    2-5 dps chrono (power chrono for pdps, mirage for cdps) for SoI boon copy
    1 banner slave
    2 healers

    and thus we are back to a more restrictive meta where 2-3 dps slots are replaceable for random dps classes while the rest is fixed.

    You need 1 healer max, and tbh, with 2x harrier/giver support chronos not even that. Fury can be covered with banner of discipline until boss health < 75% and might from sword phantasm gets extended enough so you dont need a might stacker. Frost spirit isnt quite as good on dps chronos since it doesnt affect illus.

    Chrono dps however has its own downsides and only really shines on golem bosses. Everything with short phases results in mediocre to suboptimal dps.

    But yes, currently the solution to all problems with ren/fb comp, is to just throw dps chronos at it.... Which just in itself is so infuriating and WILL be patched in mid of january, wanna bet? Most likely by adding concentration scaling to SoI. Because anet cant tough fb/ren, its after all the comp they want to promote to meta.

    Oh I agree completely.

    PUG groups usually run with 2 healers, often both druid. Occasionally with a different 2nd healer.

    Also don't discount the fact that running this many SoI to a certain extent removes the need for boon duration gear. This can increase group performance. Otherwise you can replace 2-3 mesmer with other dps. Essentially any fight which has:

    • is pdps heavy (since mirage perform nicely on condition bosses)
    • has very short damage phases (Gorseval, KC, Xera (if you consider the crystal phases), CA)

    will be not ideal.

    The upside:

    • less classes required to gear and master
    • less loading times if people are using arc build templates
    • the raid can split up for fights like TL
    • the support mesmer can go tank for fights like SH where 2 tanks are required

    Is this desirable? No. It is though once again the hand dealt by Arenanet.

    People running FIrebrand+Renegade are running a superior composition to double chrono, but an inferior composition to a 7 mesmer squad. Funny enough, Firebrand+Renegade was an absolutely valid alternative to double chrono (besides say TL or SH) last patch, yet people did not chose to run it due to convenience and habit. The only reason people are not shifting faster to one of the 2 new raid compositions is the already mentioned further balance in the future, and the fact that double chrono still works to some extent even if vastly inferior to TB+Ren.

    Now let's take a guess who is going to get blamed at the end of all this, once again: chrono and mesmer players.

  • Setz.9675Setz.9675 Member ✭✭✭

    @Yasi.9065 said:

    @Setz.9675 said:
    If not having permanent protection is an issue go bring a hammer guard.

    You do realize hammer guard symbol only works if you can stack and is 5 man? So you'd need to bring 2 of those. Loosing 12k dps on each, thats 24k less squad dps. Sorry, unacceptable.

    You do realise you can use GS/hammer and not permanently use hammer right? Losing a few thousand dps to survive an encounter thanks to protection is completely acceptable, and if protection wasnt needed, why bother in the first place?

    @Setz.9675 said:
    If quickness is an issue instead of 2 druids take 1 druid 1 firebrand (for fotm dont take the druid and use a FB instead). Previously mentioned guard could take Feel my wrath elite shout.

    FB in fractals actually sucks because your pulls are too small, you dont have a port for skips. If you want to stack might on a fb you have to bring scepter. That means you run into trouble with fury uptime. If you bring fury and leave might stacking to PS-bannerwarrior, that bannerwarrior needs strength runes. Ren might stacking means you have to stack tightly for alacrity again, which is kinda the point of this thread.

    You can run FB + chrono you know, fury uptime in fractals can be remedied by FB+DH both using Feel my wrath. PS banner warrior + dumplings can do 8-10 might stacks, yes they fall off easily but they come back just as fast as well, no rune change needed here. Stacking tightly for boons has always been a thing, stop pretending it hasn't.

    Most importantly though... the last time I raided with 2 druids was hm... when anet changed gotl to 10man might. Not to mention, solving quickness issues in one group with a fb healer doesnt solve them in the other subgroup. And it adds another supporter to the mix, lowering your squad dps quite a lot, opening up a whole other can of worms because your dps drops below "can skip" point on most encounters. Not to mention, too low squad dps means your fullclear turns from < 3 hours to > 4 hours. Extra time spend on content thats not fun in current balancing.

    So you dropped 1 druid in favor of dps which made raid clearing faster and allowed you to skip mechanics (thats bad game design in itself, being able to skip mechanics). Again this is so ridiculous, dropping support roles in favor of dps is good, dropping dps for support is bad. With the only argument that you would actually have to do mechanics during boss fights instead of bashing a health golem.

    @Setz.9675 said:
    If vigor is an issue druid could take Spirited Arrival over Windborne notes to get 16s of vigor for the party every 20s for simply swapping a pet. Or have engi take medkit (infusion bomb, AoE 10s vigor, 30s cd)

    Actually, vigor isnt a problem, but its a symptome. A boon that should be accessible to all support builds - like fury and protection - thats only available to a select few.

    If vigor isnt a problem than stop complaining about it. The only boons that are needed are quickness/alacrity/fury/might, everything else is completely optional. If you dont want to make compromises to existing builds to get optional boons, the problem is you.

    @Setz.9675 said:
    Druid providing might or herald providing prot/fury is OP but chrono providing LITERALLY EVERYTHING is the baseline right? its meta dont change it. rofl

    Did I say this anywhere? Stop projecting please. Ill spell it out just for you: the problem isnt that chrono got nerfed, the problem is that it was done in a way that doesnt properly work in most raid/fractal encounters, while leaving gaps that have been there for ages in alternative comps.
    Lowering cooldown on SoI to 20seconds, reducing boon extension time to 3 seconds would probably solve already quite a lot of the mentioned issues. Reducing cooldown on wells, pulsing boons on wells and reducing duration would also help. Increasing radius of shield4 illu procc to 300 or 360.
    Still leaves problems with fury and might. But well, at least it would be a start.

    Muh projection. Low duration quickness on a 5 time application cap is going to do nothing, the moment you run out of the stack you lose your buffs. the moment you run back you get your quickness maybe a second or two back faster, its moot.

    And of course, mechanics usually are staggered, so that means, if you are unlucky enough, you are the poor guy that has to wait 20seconds SoI extension of any boons you might get while waiting, meaning you are left with low might, low fury uptime, low protection uptime, etc.

    Real buffs are granted by chronos and dps classes should never do anything more than dps. More projection on my side I guess?

    @Setz.9675 said:
    My english isnt good enough to properly mock this, again not Anets fault that you cant make adjustments.

    Please refrain from answering without having properly reading the post you are answering to. Its bad form. Thank you. As I already said all the way up at the beginning. I tried, Ive done adjustments. The result is unsatisfying because -> see first post for reasons.

    You tried making adjustments by shuffling old meta builds around. We also know you wont compromise on raid dps so we all know how much effort you put into making these adjustments. Or is this even more projection from me?

  • I dream of pure dps group XD

  • @Setz.9675 said:

    @Yasi.9065 said:

    @Setz.9675 said:
    If not having permanent protection is an issue go bring a hammer guard.

    You do realize hammer guard symbol only works if you can stack and is 5 man? So you'd need to bring 2 of those. Loosing 12k dps on each, thats 24k less squad dps. Sorry, unacceptable.

    You do realise you can use GS/hammer and not permanently use hammer right? Losing a few thousand dps to survive an encounter thanks to protection is completely acceptable, and if protection wasnt needed, why bother in the first place?

    @Setz.9675 said:
    If quickness is an issue instead of 2 druids take 1 druid 1 firebrand (for fotm dont take the druid and use a FB instead). Previously mentioned guard could take Feel my wrath elite shout.

    FB in fractals actually sucks because your pulls are too small, you dont have a port for skips. If you want to stack might on a fb you have to bring scepter. That means you run into trouble with fury uptime. If you bring fury and leave might stacking to PS-bannerwarrior, that bannerwarrior needs strength runes. Ren might stacking means you have to stack tightly for alacrity again, which is kinda the point of this thread.

    You can run FB + chrono you know, fury uptime in fractals can be remedied by FB+DH both using Feel my wrath. PS banner warrior + dumplings can do 8-10 might stacks, yes they fall off easily but they come back just as fast as well, no rune change needed here. Stacking tightly for boons has always been a thing, stop pretending it hasn't.

    Most importantly though... the last time I raided with 2 druids was hm... when anet changed gotl to 10man might. Not to mention, solving quickness issues in one group with a fb healer doesnt solve them in the other subgroup. And it adds another supporter to the mix, lowering your squad dps quite a lot, opening up a whole other can of worms because your dps drops below "can skip" point on most encounters. Not to mention, too low squad dps means your fullclear turns from < 3 hours to > 4 hours. Extra time spend on content thats not fun in current balancing.

    So you dropped 1 druid in favor of dps which made raid clearing faster and allowed you to skip mechanics (thats bad game design in itself, being able to skip mechanics). Again this is so ridiculous, dropping support roles in favor of dps is good, dropping dps for support is bad. With the only argument that you would actually have to do mechanics during boss fights instead of bashing a health golem.

    @Setz.9675 said:
    If vigor is an issue druid could take Spirited Arrival over Windborne notes to get 16s of vigor for the party every 20s for simply swapping a pet. Or have engi take medkit (infusion bomb, AoE 10s vigor, 30s cd)

    Actually, vigor isnt a problem, but its a symptome. A boon that should be accessible to all support builds - like fury and protection - thats only available to a select few.

    If vigor isnt a problem than stop complaining about it. The only boons that are needed are quickness/alacrity/fury/might, everything else is completely optional. If you dont want to make compromises to existing builds to get optional boons, the problem is you.

    @Setz.9675 said:
    Druid providing might or herald providing prot/fury is OP but chrono providing LITERALLY EVERYTHING is the baseline right? its meta dont change it. rofl

    Did I say this anywhere? Stop projecting please. Ill spell it out just for you: the problem isnt that chrono got nerfed, the problem is that it was done in a way that doesnt properly work in most raid/fractal encounters, while leaving gaps that have been there for ages in alternative comps.
    Lowering cooldown on SoI to 20seconds, reducing boon extension time to 3 seconds would probably solve already quite a lot of the mentioned issues. Reducing cooldown on wells, pulsing boons on wells and reducing duration would also help. Increasing radius of shield4 illu procc to 300 or 360.
    Still leaves problems with fury and might. But well, at least it would be a start.

    Muh projection. Low duration quickness on a 5 time application cap is going to do nothing, the moment you run out of the stack you lose your buffs. the moment you run back you get your quickness maybe a second or two back faster, its moot.

    And of course, mechanics usually are staggered, so that means, if you are unlucky enough, you are the poor guy that has to wait 20seconds SoI extension of any boons you might get while waiting, meaning you are left with low might, low fury uptime, low protection uptime, etc.

    Real buffs are granted by chronos and dps classes should never do anything more than dps. More projection on my side I guess?

    @Setz.9675 said:
    My english isnt good enough to properly mock this, again not Anets fault that you cant make adjustments.

    Please refrain from answering without having properly reading the post you are answering to. Its bad form. Thank you. As I already said all the way up at the beginning. I tried, Ive done adjustments. The result is unsatisfying because -> see first post for reasons.

    You tried making adjustments by shuffling old meta builds around. We also know you wont compromise on raid dps so we all know how much effort you put into making these adjustments. Or is this even more projection from me?

    Druid is old meta tho since ren fb can do its job too

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 19, 2018

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    I don't see a reason they need to ... it's not like there are so few comps that can complete content where raids need to be toned down to those comps. Maybe if people didn't try to just play how some website tells them, they would realize there ARE solutions to complete content outside of their narrow ideas of what they have been told is optimal.

    See, this is the problem with pushing meta ... hardly any players know how to figure out how to play for themselves anymore. The can't figure out what to do when something changes.

    That happens when you start to balance encounters around the top percenters in a game where performance of those can be several times greater than of average player. And when the same is true about performance of builds.

    @Nimon.7840 said:
    Because these 2 firebrands together can easily do the same DPS as 1,5 regular DPS players.

    Not if one of them is going to be a tank.
    Forgot about that one, did you?

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    I don't see a reason they need to ... it's not like there are so few comps that can complete content where raids need to be toned down to those comps. Maybe if people didn't try to just play how some website tells them, they would realize there ARE solutions to complete content outside of their narrow ideas of what they have been told is optimal.

    See, this is the problem with pushing meta ... hardly any players know how to figure out how to play for themselves anymore. The can't figure out what to do when something changes.

    That happens when you start to balance encounters around the top percenters in a game where performance of those can be several times greater than of average player.

    @Nimon.7840 said:
    Because these 2 firebrands together can easily do the same DPS as 1,5 regular DPS players.

    Not if one of them is going to be a tank.
    Forgot about that one, did you?

    Do we need a tank anymore?

  • Grogba.6204Grogba.6204 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 19, 2018

    Someone has to stack toughness to move certain bosses around. (Also Desmina hits like a truck)
    And you need at least 251 toughness over your Firebrands by nature of https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Imbued_Haste

    edit:
    There is also the issue that guardian only has two blocks which greatly impair the possible dps if used for tanking and only block a certain number of attacks (mace (1) and Focus (3)). There is the invuln of renewed focus and a metric ton of aegis application for the group at least but evading VG blue for example is a lot harder to do with a guard than with a mesmer (Sword 2, Sword 4, Shield 4, F4).
    Renegade is even worse in that regard, having a single block on staff (and strong damage mitigration in Jalis) and damage absorb and a second block are gated by herald.

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 19, 2018

    And here is my question because I don't have the time to do the calculations myself nor am I really interested in wasting investing my free time with it:

    What exactly is the gear we have to use if we run 2 fb + 1 ren? (Under the assumption we'll easily be able to respec the next balance patch when new gear will be introduced)
    I really wanna know how this turns out to be so much superior vs. double chrono, especially on Desmina but also on other bosses with a fixed tank spot.
    (And I don't want to have variants, it must be set in stone so we don't have downtimes, I only allow one of the tanks having a 2nd gear available for Demina!)

    (Edit: Keep in mind it must be puggable otherwise we have a way more strict comp and decisionmaking which speaks for running the "old" meta. So it has to be realistically applicable. Things like: here you go harrier ren and fb tank, the next ren tank and condi fb and then condi ren + condi fb are no valid solution)

©2010–2018 ArenaNet, LLC. All rights reserved. Guild Wars, Guild Wars 2, Heart of Thorns, Guild Wars 2: Path of Fire, ArenaNet, NCSOFT, the Interlocking NC Logo, and all associated logos and designs are trademarks or registered trademarks of NCSOFT Corporation. All other trademarks are the property of their respective owners.