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Systems Team: Why is 15k Coalescence of Ruin fine, but 10k Full Counter needs 66% damage nerf?


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@ProverbsofHell.2307 said:Just wondering? Both are heavy classes. Revenant gets to dish out MASSIVE 10-15k crits at HUGE 1200 range. It's huge damage, it's on a tiny cooldown, you can use it from the safety of big range.

And YET, Full Counter, which could hit for 10-12k ONLY if you stacked EVERY kind of damage-giving trait/food/gear imaginable, has to be used from melee range, inside of an enemy blob, at point blank range, and has triple the cooldown?

I want Irenio or someone to tell me the logic, to tell me why one is fine and the other is too much, why it is SO bad it had to completely ruin any fun you can have on Warrior? Why does the systems team hate Warrior?

I can use this analogy to compare any two skills and would be 100% wrong. One skill is a block while the other a ranged attack. There is no relation between them whatsoever.

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@ProverbsofHell.2307 said:Also, mainhand sword is a fairly underplayed weapon, with hardly any warriors going outside of Greatsword/Hammer.Lolwat? Hammer hasnt been meta for many years. Almost all roamer warriors use the greatsword, shield and something else. Maybe not always the sword, but definetly not the hammer.

Also, he forgot to mention the 1000hp/s in addition to everything else.

Even a rev popping the regen on attack is easy to bring down twice compared to trying to punch through the passive hp regen of warriors.

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@Dawdler.8521 said:

@ProverbsofHell.2307 said:Also, mainhand sword is a fairly underplayed weapon, with hardly any warriors going outside of Greatsword/Hammer.Lolwat? Hammer hasnt been meta for many years. Almost all roamer warriors use the greatsword, shield and something else. Maybe not always the sword, but definetly not the hammer.

Also, he forgot to mention the 1000hp/s in addition to everything else.

Even a rev popping the regen on attack is
easy
to bring down twice compared to trying to punch through the passive hp regen of warriors.

LOLWAT

Nobody runs GS/Hammer? OK then, not sure if you're NA or something, but here in EU everyone uses hammer. Personally I use Sword/Axe + GS, but that's besides the point.

I'm not talking about roaming by the way, I'm talking about actual zerg fights.

Also any Warrior going into a zerg fight using healing signet and not defiant stance is gimping themselves.

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@ProverbsofHell.2307 said:

@ProverbsofHell.2307 said:Also, mainhand sword is a fairly underplayed weapon, with hardly any warriors going outside of Greatsword/Hammer.Lolwat? Hammer hasnt been meta for many years. Almost all roamer warriors use the greatsword, shield and something else. Maybe not always the sword, but definetly not the hammer.

Also, he forgot to mention the 1000hp/s in addition to everything else.

Even a rev popping the regen on attack is
easy
to bring down twice compared to trying to punch through the passive hp regen of warriors.

LOLWAT

Nobody runs GS/Hammer? OK then, not sure if you're NA or something, but here in EU everyone uses hammer. Personally I use Sword/Axe + GS, but that's besides the point.

I'm not talking about roaming by the way, I'm talking about actual zerg fights.

Also any Warrior going into a zerg fight using healing signet and not defiant stance is gimping themselves.By that argument you just shot down your own argument.

Fc was stupid OP for solo spellbreakers. And guess whats not OP for solo revs? Hammer. Thats the logic.

Anet doesnt care for zerg balancing, only pvp.

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15k on 1 skill that needs barely any set up at 1200 range is far too much, even 8k or more at the interim ranges is far too high for a 1 press EZ damage that can be used as much as CoR can.

However it sums up GW2 since expansions hit, press 1 button and get mega damage. Don't bother your brain quietly sitting on the couch turning to mush, not needed here.

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I feel bad for anybody that mains a Spellbreaker lately in WvW. :anguished:

The last two balance patches were imo - "HOLD him still while I KICK HIM IN THE GROIN AGAIN with my RAZOR-TOOTH 6 Inch cleats!" :disappointed:

I agree that FC needed a little bit of toning down...but WOW... this Spellbreak nerf, again, is quite BRUTAL indeed. (And if these latest nerfs are/were actually justified and needed after a "year", then the original skills were way out of spec to begin with when designed.)

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I no longer use my spellbreaker for the rare occasions i go zerg fighting, Its all Hammer rev, pew pew and watch the bags. But in response to if its OP . Its super strong in zergs but let me tell you, If by some bad luck i die and have to run back to zerg. Guess what i swap to staff because no way am i going to get caught in the open alone while having hammer equipped. It blows for solo roaming.

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@steki.1478 said:

@"Catchyfx.5768" said:10k is lot for defensive ability.

WOW.

-Keanu Reeves

When FULL glass, and taking EVERY offensive trait. It's not just a defensive ability, it's a CLASS MECHANIC with a HUGE tell.

Even if you felt like it was strong, saying it deserved 66% damage nerf is laughable.

Nothing about warrior is full glass. Literally nothing, especially not spellbreaker.

"Full Glass" while running Defense and triple stances on A/Shield secondary too lol.

Don't get me wrong, rev hammer's damage is way overtuned, but pretending FC wasn't broken is delusion.

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@DeceiverX.8361 said:

@"Catchyfx.5768" said:10k is lot for defensive ability.

WOW.

-Keanu Reeves

When FULL glass, and taking EVERY offensive trait. It's not just a defensive ability, it's a CLASS MECHANIC with a HUGE tell.

Even if you felt like it was strong, saying it deserved 66% damage nerf is laughable.

Nothing about warrior is full glass. Literally nothing, especially not spellbreaker.

"Full Glass" while running Defense and triple stances on A/Shield secondary too lol.

Don't get me wrong, rev hammer's damage is way overtuned, but pretending FC wasn't broken is delusion.

True. Rev could either use +2 seconds on CoR or just less damage overall. The 5 might on fury application trait shouldn't even exist considering how easy access to fury it has. It makes all other might traits in game a joke.

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@steki.1478 said:

@"Catchyfx.5768" said:10k is lot for defensive ability.

WOW.

-Keanu Reeves

When FULL glass, and taking EVERY offensive trait. It's not just a defensive ability, it's a CLASS MECHANIC with a HUGE tell.

Even if you felt like it was strong, saying it deserved 66% damage nerf is laughable.

Nothing about warrior is full glass. Literally nothing, especially not spellbreaker.

"Full Glass" while running Defense and triple stances on A/Shield secondary too lol.

Don't get me wrong, rev hammer's damage is way overtuned, but pretending FC wasn't broken is delusion.

True. Rev could either use +2 seconds on CoR or just less damage overall. The 5 might on fury application trait shouldn't even exist considering how easy access to fury it has. It makes all other might traits in game a joke.

The AA's are the worst part about it.

Rev hammer AA alone regularly hits 10k on glass per hit and 6k+ into tanks. CoR is a side bonus to get through projectile denial.

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  • 2 weeks later...

@"Krypto.2069" said:I feel bad for anybody that mains a Spellbreaker lately in WvW. :anguished:

The last two balance patches were imo - "HOLD him still while I KICK HIM IN THE GROIN AGAIN with my RAZOR-TOOTH 6 Inch cleats!" :disappointed:

I agree that FC needed a little bit of toning down...but WOW... this Spellbreak nerf, again, is quite BRUTAL indeed. (And if these latest nerfs are/were actually justified and needed after a "year", then the original skills were way out of spec to begin with when designed.)

This is why a PTS would be so beneficial. Of course, that will never happen.

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@DeceiverX.8361 said:

@"Catchyfx.5768" said:10k is lot for defensive ability.

WOW.

-Keanu Reeves

When FULL glass, and taking EVERY offensive trait. It's not just a defensive ability, it's a CLASS MECHANIC with a HUGE tell.

Even if you felt like it was strong, saying it deserved 66% damage nerf is laughable.

Nothing about warrior is full glass. Literally nothing, especially not spellbreaker.

"Full Glass" while running Defense and triple stances on A/Shield secondary too lol.

Don't get me wrong, rev hammer's damage is way overtuned, but pretending FC wasn't broken is delusion.

It was certainly overtuned at PoF launch... then it was nerfed. Increased the CD and dropped the damage to 75% of PvE. Was it still OP? Then, the most current patch dropped it to 25% of PvE damage (a huge damage nerf). Seems overkill, don't you think? Meanwhile, CoR is routinely hitting multiple opponents from 1200 range for 5-digit numbers. Now, can you really draw a comparison between FC and CoR? Probably not, but what you can do is ask, "if FC received that sort of damage nerf (while requiring the player to be within melee range, mind you), is it really right for CoR (given it's numerous advantages) to be pumping out those kind of numbers? Melee DPS should always be higher than ranged DPS because of the inherent risk involved in getting into (and maintaining) melee range. This is why Warrior has the sort of sustain that it does; the vast majority of it's kit requires melee range.

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@crewthief.8649 said:

@"Catchyfx.5768" said:10k is lot for defensive ability.

WOW.

-Keanu Reeves

When FULL glass, and taking EVERY offensive trait. It's not just a defensive ability, it's a CLASS MECHANIC with a HUGE tell.

Even if you felt like it was strong, saying it deserved 66% damage nerf is laughable.

Nothing about warrior is full glass. Literally nothing, especially not spellbreaker.

"Full Glass" while running Defense and triple stances on A/Shield secondary too lol.

Don't get me wrong, rev hammer's damage is way overtuned, but pretending FC wasn't broken is delusion.

It was certainly overtuned at PoF launch... then it was nerfed. Increased the CD and dropped the damage to 75% of PvE. Was it still OP? Then, the most current patch dropped it to 25% of PvE damage (a huge damage nerf). Seems overkill, don't you think? Meanwhile, CoR is routinely hitting multiple opponents from 1200 range for 5-digit numbers. Now, can you really draw a comparison between FC and CoR? Probably not, but what you can do is ask, "if FC received that sort of damage nerf (while requiring the player to be within melee range, mind you), is it really right for CoR (given it's numerous advantages) to be pumping out those kind of numbers? Melee DPS should always be higher than ranged DPS because of the inherent risk involved in getting into (and maintaining) melee range. This is why Warrior has the sort of sustain that it does; the vast majority of it's kit requires melee range.

I'm not going to disagree with you because I think CoR is broken.

Like everything else in the game I've argued about balance - including about the classes I play myself (thief and necro, mainly) just because something else is busted does not justify something you have being busted; the former should just be nerfed.

FC was absolutely broken. Spellbreaker now feels reasonable to fight, especially when playing a build or class which depends on multi-hit skills as its primary source of damage, because previously it was just stupidly easy for the warrior to guarantee a trigger on FC halfway through your channel.

CoR is also broken, and rev hammer needs some WvW-specific nerfs alongside soulbeast because they both deal absolutely stupid amounts of ranged damage that can't be reflected/blocked. Even Deadeye was nerfed appropriately.

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@DeceiverX.8361 said:

@"Catchyfx.5768" said:10k is lot for defensive ability.

WOW.

-Keanu Reeves

When FULL glass, and taking EVERY offensive trait. It's not just a defensive ability, it's a CLASS MECHANIC with a HUGE tell.

Even if you felt like it was strong, saying it deserved 66% damage nerf is laughable.

Nothing about warrior is full glass. Literally nothing, especially not spellbreaker.

"Full Glass" while running Defense and triple stances on A/Shield secondary too lol.

Don't get me wrong, rev hammer's damage is way overtuned, but pretending FC wasn't broken is delusion.

It was certainly overtuned at PoF launch... then it was nerfed. Increased the CD and dropped the damage to 75% of PvE. Was it still OP? Then, the most current patch dropped it to 25% of PvE damage (a huge damage nerf). Seems overkill, don't you think? Meanwhile, CoR is routinely hitting multiple opponents from 1200 range for 5-digit numbers. Now, can you really draw a comparison between FC and CoR? Probably not, but what you can do is ask, "if FC received that sort of damage nerf (while requiring the player to be within melee range, mind you), is it really right for CoR (given it's numerous advantages) to be pumping out those kind of numbers? Melee DPS should always be higher than ranged DPS because of the inherent risk involved in getting into (and maintaining) melee range. This is why Warrior has the sort of sustain that it does; the vast majority of it's kit requires melee range.

I'm not going to disagree with you because I think CoR is broken.

Like everything else in the game I've argued about balance - including about the classes I play myself (thief and necro, mainly) just because something else is busted does not justify something you have being busted; the former should just be nerfed.

FC was absolutely broken. Spellbreaker now feels reasonable to fight, especially when playing a build or class which depends on multi-hit skills as its primary source of damage, because previously it was just stupidly easy for the warrior to guarantee a trigger on FC halfway through your channel.

CoR is also broken, and rev hammer needs some WvW-specific nerfs alongside soulbeast because they both deal absolutely stupid amounts of ranged damage that can't be reflected/blocked. Even Deadeye was nerfed appropriately.

It's all Rev hammer skills. I frequently get higher numbers on Phase Smash and Drop The Hammer than I do CoR.

I think they could stand to see some shaves but I also don't think it should be heavily nerfed either. Zergs are just so absurdly tanky now that without Rev's pumping out the spikes you'd really only have Necros and it would take a year and a half for fights to end. That, and Rev hammer isn't exactly useful in situations outside zergs anyway. It doesn't have a huge selection of weapons so it wouldn't be good to nerf it in to uselessness.

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Kinda goes back to what I said earlier though - FB and Scourge Sustain and AoE/corrupt power also need heavy nerfing; something being OP doesn't justify an arms race.

While Drop the Hammer is definitely a major killer, I find it's only effective/frustrating because it has no AoE indicator and is overall fairly hard to see with the huge amount of stuff happening on screen. There's plenty of time to react. CoR is OP mostly just because of its cooldown and how it basically can't be negated, but also for similar reasons as Drop the Hammer in that it lacks visibility, especially with the AoE spam on the frontlines making it hard to see the "wave" coming when it cleaves through.

Drop the Hammer being given the scourge-style AoE indicator I think the skill would be a lot more balanced just by QoL/visibility improvements. Granted, it'd also be hard to distinguish between scourge AoE's and DtH though...

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@Kain Francois.4328 said:Others have already explained the reasoning, but I'll say something else.

Coalescence of Ruin has a long telegraph. Furthermore, you have to be at a max range sweetpot that is very hard to hit. Meanwhile Full Count procs almost immediately as it triggers a counter. You can easily dodge one but not the other.

The telegraph isn't really visible in blob fights, while Full Counter is highly visible. You can dodge both. Also, if Full Counter hits you, literally nothing happens, because it now hits for 0 damage.

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It's simple, revenant hammer is the slowest weapon in the game (it litterally has longer average cast times than any other weapon) and therefore it either does big damage per hit to counter balance it hitting much less frequently then the faster weapons, or it has exceptional utility of some form, or it is more or less useless. It is already more or less useless in spvp, end game pve, and small scale wvw since the damage per hit isn't high enough to make up for the slow attack rate for dpsand the defensive utility is poor making hammer revs super easy targets to focus and eliminate.

Meanwhile full counter has an absurd amount of utility baked into it and is actually quite fast to cast if you time it correctly so it is still strong even with low damage.

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@"Kain Francois.4328" said:Others have already explained the reasoning, but I'll say something else.

Coalescence of Ruin has a long telegraph. Furthermore, you have to be at a max range sweetpot that is very hard to hit. Meanwhile Full Count procs almost immediately as it triggers a counter. You can easily dodge one but not the other.

One happens at melee range and has seen many nerfs, the other happens at 1200 range. You can dodge Full Counter, FYI. You aren't going to convince anyone that FC beats CoR in terms of raw damage. Now, regarding utility, FC is still a very solid skill, but it is a shadow of its former self. The over-arching theme of this thread is that FC damage was seen as too high (obviously, since its damage has been nerfed by 83% since PoF launch, as well as an increase to the cooldown), yet CoR, a skill that is initiated from 1200 range and does quite a bit more damage than FC ever has, is seen as "fine." Can you appreciate the disparity? I'm not calling for nerfs, but the OP's original point has some merit, to be completely honest.

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