Ban ArcDPS and any third party program

[Cyninja.2954]

@Applejuice.4083 said:

@Turin.6921 said:

@Applejuice.4083 said:ArcDPS is the problem, it is a third party program that breeds toxicity among you elitist individuals. Attacking players who do 1k damage difference from what is meta. I have seen people who use this program go as far as to issue out IRL death threats or making snarky comments like " My grandma can out dps this kid" etc, etc. I have seen people who get DC'd from a raid because of ArcDps then leech the boss at the end by coming back.

What make you think this has not happen by people without DPS meters? I guessed you missed the speed running dungeon scene at launch or the original fractals near level 50.

No I was there during the "speed running dungeon scene" when people would go on another lfg site pretty much specifically catered to CoF Path 1, zerk warrior and 1 zerk mesmer. I remember using greatsword 5 skilll as a mesmer to push boss into a corner while everyone kills it in 1 time skip or whatever the skill is called to make things go fast.

Glad you remember.

Say how many ranger, necromancers and engineers were you seeing in that meta? Exactly, none. Reason being that the majority of the player base had subjective incorrect perceptions based on numbers which were not tied to actual performance. Warriors Hundred Blades was considered among the best skills for damage because it gave nice big numbers.

Remember the LFG being full of:

• 10k AP
• exp or kick
• 4 warrior 1 chrono
• no ranger, necromancer
• level 80 only
• speedrun
• zerker or kick

Now come back and tell me that unjustified arbitrary exclusion and kicks is better than actually educated and informed one? Toxicity is present the moment people want to push their own agenda or desire for success. A damage meter allows for informed decisions preventing uninformed bias to dictate who gets removed. Damage meters actually allow otherwise not desired classes to be judged based on their performance.

[maddoctor.2738]

@"MithranArkanere.8957" said:They should focus only on the fight, wait until things end, then check what they do right or wrong in the breakdown, and adjust accordingly.

I'm quite positive most groups work like that. There is no reason to have multiple meters running in a group, one is enough and afterwards the one with the meter can upload the logs. The logs are the important part and I'm sure no in-game tool could ever provide that functionality. The "stats" after a PVP match don't show anything important.

[Bridget Morrigan.1752]

You know, I've been kicked from Fractal CM's because of "low damage" reported via Arcdps, when what was actually going on was no one doing mechanics but me (causing my dps to drop but theirs to look high because they never stopped smacking the boss to do thinks like, say, kill the anomaly or get their exploding asses in the bomb shelter). People look at Arcdps and think, Things aren't going well--it must be the fault of this person who doesn't have top DPS! when in truth they really just don't have a clue what is going on at all. So Arcdps is a tool that doesn't always add information that people can understand in the moment, and I can personally attest to having been the victim of that mindset that Arcdps fosters: that someone isn't pulling their weight, yadda, yadda.

But I still wouldn't argue for its removal. It's information, plain and simple, and that's all it is. I've learned a ton about how to play better by watching it, and its taught me how to understand my teammates and team builds overall better, as well as my own builds. Yes, there will be times when people are stupid and jerks because of it (though the propensity to be stupid and jerks was always there, lbr), but the overall advantages far outweigh these things. Speaking from experience.

[MithranArkanere.8957]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"MithranArkanere.8957" said:They should focus only on the fight, wait until things end, then check what they do right or wrong in the breakdown, and adjust accordingly.

[...]The "stats" after a PVP match don't show anything important.

Hence "way more detailed". The PvP match breakdown needs to be improved too. A lot more. Such improvements would carry over to a PvE combat breakdown that would be available at the end of instanced content.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

arcdps is toxicnewbs are goodI will never improvelike I should

[maddoctor.2738]

@MithranArkanere.8957 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@MithranArkanere.8957 said:They should focus only on the fight, wait until things end, then check what they do right or wrong in the breakdown, and adjust accordingly.

[...]The "stats" after a PVP match don't show anything important.

Hence "way more detailed". The PvP match breakdown needs to be improved too. A lot more. Such improvements would carry over to a PvE combat breakdown that would be available at the end of instanced content.

Seeing this kind of information at the end of a run is also mostly pointless. The best thing about logs is that they are available online, you can study them at any time you wish. You can compare your run this week, with all previous ones. And obviously being something you read on an external website instead of in-game makes it much easier to design the UI. I can't really imagine the functionality of the parsed logs in-game, it would be a UI nightmare. But online, they are simple HTML.

They don't allow us to store our build templates, so I can't imagine them allowing us to store 1000s of logs on some personal space reserved for that purpose. I wouldn't hold my breath that an Arenanet developed meter would be any good (or even useful)

[santso.9201]

@"Applejuice.4083" said:ArcDPS is the problem, it is a third party program that breeds toxicity among you elitist individuals. Attacking players who do 1k damage difference from what is meta. I have seen people who use this program go as far as to issue out IRL death threats or making snarky comments like " My grandma can out dps this kid" etc, etc. I have seen people who get DC'd from a raid because of ArcDps then leech the boss at the end by coming back.

Well i got flamed by one Guy because i was playing condi scourge in fractals, that person was playing dh, i checked My arc after each encounter and i did around 20-22k on each boss and double his overall dmg compared to his 10-12k he was clearly not using arc and he was clearly The toxic one.

[Belorn.2659]

The one thing that get most people kicked is a feature which normal arc do not have: Mechanic blames. Who stepped in black. Who dropped the bomb. Who dropped poison. Who missed the green. Who got teleported. Who got egged. Who missed the bomb.

This is what raid breakdown provide (and many site that parse logs), and few things get people kicked faster from groups that failing mechanics. Many dhuum groups even has one-failure-kick rules.

When people don't know who to blame, they just kick everyone they don't trust and reform. Guess how much banning arc would change that?

[DoNotBelieveMe.3029]

The more mentally mature and experienced players use arcdps as an analysis tool for troubleshooting and deciding on strategies for certain pve instanced content. The less mentally mature use it to discriminate and self-affirm their superiority over other players which may result in unwarranted kicks or chat abuse. The ones who don't use it and get kicked have no grounds to complain or contest kicks since they have no way to judge the value of their performance in the group objectively without it. This only applies to dps roles. It is a useful tool.

[Ahrijlaken.9541]

How to fix the problem ?

1. Ban DPS metter third party
2. Creat official DPSmeter in the game that only show solo DPS and GUILD members DPS

Problem solved.

[Ahrijlaken.9541]

How to fix the problem ?

1. Ban DPS metter third party
2. Creat official DPSmeter in the game that only show solo DPS and GUILD members DPS

Problem solved.

[mindcircus.1506]

@"nosleepdemon.1368" said:Rather than ban Arc DPS, I think it might be time for everyone to accept that they can't necessarily do all content all of the time; That there might be some content that is a little more exclusive, requires a little more experience and time investment in the game, and that this is not a bad thing.

I think you have absolutely put your finger on the real issue.There is a small but very vocal group that feels it is their right to all content by virtue of the time/money spent on the game regardless of skill level or even their own personal interest in it.They will never accept what you are saying, regardless of how logical, even and sensible the message is. From the demand for ARC to be banned, to the demand for "easy mode raids" to the complaints about having to go into WvW for a few hours to earn a legendary weapon, it's all the same.They show up in rare, mismatched armor with zero synergy in their build and expect to be able to do a t3 fractal because the armor is a gemstore skin. Then they hop on to the forums to berate Arenanet for the AR system or the other players who kicked them for underperforming.They spent their time and money, they figure; they are supposed to be allowed to raid.

The word here is entitlement.If the players in question could read your quote and come to terms with it, drama would decrease tenfold.But they won't, because when given the choice between a lessening of their power-fantasy and criticizing others they will always choose to blame other people.

[zionophir.6845]

indeed. it is not arcdps, but the users of arcdps.

[sigur.9453]

@zionophir.6845 said:indeed. it is not arcdps, but the users of arcdps.

SOME users.

[nosleepdemon.1368]

@zionophir.6845 said:indeed. it is not arcdps, but the users of arcdps.

Touche! But as mentioned, probably #notallusers.

[zionophir.6845]

@nosleepdemon.1368 said:

@zionophir.6845 said:indeed. it is not arcdps, but the users of arcdps.

Touche! But as mentioned, probably #notallusers.

yeah. a gun, by itself, can't do sh@t. give that to a morally upright and responsible owner, he'll use it accordingly and most likely, sparingly. but give that to an effin you know what, cnn will have another news..

[Sylosi.6503]

@Zin Dau.1749 said:challenging instance content like dungeons, raids....

LOL, challenging.

[ArchonWing.9480]

Actually, high end content breeds toxicity.Delete high end content from the game.Wait no, it happens in other content too, like dungeons too.Delete all content from the game, and make it so that all you can do is run around lion's arch and chat.Wait, chat is toxic too.Delete chat from the game.Wait, you'll still have the internet.Delete the internet.Wait you still have people that were toxic before the internet...Go hide under a rock!Although it's pretty likely that's toxic too.

In the end it takes one to know one. If you think everyone around you is toxic, well, you might just be the most toxic of them all.

[ArchonWing.9480]

Mm... there are these things called friends. Some may not boot you because of performance.

Or maybe guildmates, whatever.

Expecting random strangers to cater to you is foolish at best.

[Nephalem.8921]

@Ahrijlaken.9541 said:How to fix the problem ?

1. Ban DPS metter third party
2. Creat official DPSmeter in the game that only show solo DPS and GUILD members DPS

Problem solved.

Or maybe don't join group based content if you don't want to be judged. Doing decent dps is not hard. Just using aa would be enough most of the time but the special snowflakes still fail that.

[Ashen.2907]

@Laila Lightness.8742 said:

@gateless gate.8406 said:

@"Blocki.4931" said:Why should they be banned? Also a commander cannot be kicked and the party has a majority vote, which isn't exactly easy to abuse. What you're saying doesn't make much sense. You're able to kick the underperformer, that's all you need to be able to have a group full of people who aren't bad.

It's just a personal preference. I think DPS meters leads people to overemphasize numbers. I've seen it time and again in other MMOs (where DPS meters are more widespread). A player will stand in lethal boss mechanics because they want to keep DPS high, or will berate someone who is performing all boss mechanics correctly for having middling DPS.

Secondly, I think people get overly particular about DPS numbers. One class may do 40k DPS while bringing zero utility and being a fragile glass cannon. Meanwhile, another class may do 36k DPS but bring utility and survivability. People will berate the 36k player for playing a "useless" and "low DPS" class because all the extra things they bring are

non-quantifiable

. There is no meter showing how many times that 36k player prevented himself from being downed (thereby preventing the massive DPS loss that is rezzing), or enhanced group DPS through boons. The fact that those things are much harder to quantify means players undervalue them.

Thirdly, I think it encourages developers to make smarter, more fun enemy encounters. If DPS meters are in the game, people will begin bringing the high DPS classes. That means average group/raid damage begins skyrocketing relative to damage prior to the introduction of DPS meters, which in turn means developers need to start raising boss HP and implementing enrage timers.

Regarding the issue of a commander being kicked from their own group, I was referring to 5-man groups.

Dps meter is toxic tool. Game got more toxic since it came . For first maybe anet had a reason to not impliment one into game no one thinks of that

DPS meter opened instanced group content inclusion to more classes and builds. Game is less toxic since its addition.

Anet didn't initially include the wardrobe system in the game...does that mean it shouldn't exist?Anet didn't initially include the expansion maps/content...should they not exist?Anet didn't initially include mounts...Anet didn't initially include gliders, elite specs, most of the music instruments, many armor skins that we have now.....should all of the armor skins added since launch not exist because maybe Anet had a reason to not implement them at launch?

[Laila Lightness.8742]

@Ahrijlaken.9541 said:How to fix the problem ?

1. Ban DPS metter third party
2. Creat official DPSmeter in the game that only show solo DPS and GUILD members DPS

Problem solved.

How about just use combat log and calculator

[mortrialus.3062]

@"Applejuice.4083" said:ArcDPS is the problem, it is a third party program that breeds toxicity among you elitist individuals. Attacking players who do 1k damage difference from what is meta. I have seen people who use this program go as far as to issue out IRL death threats or making snarky comments like " My grandma can out dps this kid" etc, etc. I have seen people who get DC'd from a raid because of ArcDps then leech the boss at the end by coming back.

How does it breed toxicity? All I ever get is people telling me I'm amazing and wondering what kind of witchcraft I use.

[dynomite.5834]

I interpret that people are really saying "yes there are toxic people but why give them another tool that increases their toxic opportunities". If DPS meters are really about player improvement and "git gud" then just make them personalized so only you can monitor your performance and improve.

The bulk of GW2's content can be completed by almost anyone in any build - sure, it might not be the fastest or most optimized but you'll get through it.

[Khisanth.2948]

@nosleepdemon.1368 said:

@FrizzFreston.5290 said:

@nosleepdemon.1368 said:

@"Applejuice.4083" said:ArcDPS is the problem, it is a third party program that breeds toxicity among you elitist individuals. Attacking players who do 1k damage difference from what is meta. I have seen people who use this program go as far as to issue out IRL death threats or making snarky comments like " My grandma can out dps this kid" etc, etc. I have seen people who get DC'd from a raid because of ArcDps then leech the boss at the end by coming back.

You can't seriously argue that Arc DPS is the cause of such behaviour, that's on the individuals themselves. Anti social players will remain anti social no matter what, party kicks, death threats and accusations of poor performance will not go away just because you take the proverbial sledge hammer to the nail.

If anti social players remain anti social players anyway, why did and does arenanet go through so much (re)design in order to make as little conflict as possible?

Clearly the design of the game or allowance of third party apps can make a difference between more toxic behavior and less toxic behavior.

This bad people will be bad argument is very flawed.

Just so you dont get confused, it doesnt mean a DPS meter in general is bad, or should be banned. It just means it does have an influence, unless you assume that all people are stoic, and that some tools are better at making a cooperative environment that others, even if they have the same or similar functions.

Also, while no design will be completely erasing toxic behavior (hell some people are toxic in open world events) it doesnt mean it can't be improved.

For a discussion on that to happen we would need to be able to let go of polarising arguments, which.. well is kind of boring I guess.

I suppose the question is whether or not removing Arc DPS as a means of moderating poor behaviour is a net positive for the game. In general, I am of the opinion that restricting information as a means to control behaviour is undesireable.

One compromise would be building DPS metres into the game, and then allowing a party leader to enable them for all players (if they wish to see them) or to disable them entirely. Players would be able to see some sort of DPS metre icon next to a party that has them turned on, giving them the opportunity to join or not join based on their preferences.

The reasons will simply become more arbitrary since it is no longer backed up by facts.

@"MithranArkanere.8957" said:We do not need DPS meters.

What we need is a combat breakdown at the end of content upon success or wipe. Something like the one that appears at the end of PvP matches, but way more detailed, and only available upon success or defeat.

It would have to be MUCH better than the PvP one. It doesn't tell you stuff like "at this time my 4 of my teammates were wasting their time chasing down one enemy". -_-

People should not get used to play looking and numbers. They should focus only on the fight, wait until things end, then check what they do right or wrong in the breakdown, and adjust accordingly.

This will never work unless you somehow remove clocks from existence otherwise people will be able to say "at X time we should be at Y% or less or entered into a particular phase in the fight".

If such a thing is ever added to the game, the training golems should also get the breakdown panel, and way more options, like dummy ally golems with selectable 25, 50 and 75% HP, to to check healing builds.

The combat log is not enough, and DPS meters that can generate a combat breakdown are external tools. So none of them cut it.