Is damage too high? - Page 2 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Is damage too high?

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  • Damage output is too high.

    Voted too high, but this is in context.

    • Damage output is too high for people that run around in tanky gear, ie, power, ferocity, and condition damage should not exist on gear with toughness & vitality.
    • Damage output is not high enough for players running zerker gear vs tanky gear
  • XECOR.2814XECOR.2814 Member ✭✭✭

    I do not understand people who put damage is fine/low.

  • Dayra.7405Dayra.7405 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 25, 2018
    Damage output is too high.

    Base damage is probably ok, but the amount of damage boost is out of control.

    And this is even an exponential Function, should be a sub-linear function

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 25, 2018
    Damage output is fine.

    @XECOR.2814 said:
    I do not understand people who put damage is fine/low.

    On the high end it's not uncommon for skilled players to be able to stall each other out for minutes at a time even with damage being so explosively high with skilled use of active defenses, kiting, and jumping puzzles.

    The Psychomancer: Mesmer Elite Specialization Suggestion

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 26, 2018
    Damage output is fine.

    I hope that people who voted in favour of damage being too high , do realize that their sustain would have to be adjusted in relation to any change in applicable damage.

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

  • BlaqueFyre.5678BlaqueFyre.5678 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Arheundel.6451 said:
    I hope that people who voted in favour of damage being too high , do realize that their sustain would have to be adjusted in relation to any change in applicable damage.

    No, they don’t think that far ahead and they will complain if it gets adjusted down.

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Damage output is fine.

    @Arheundel.6451 said:
    I hope that people who voted in favour of damage being too high , do realize that their sustain would have to be adjusted in relation to any change in applicable damage.

    I've always been curious what GW2 would look like without dedicated heal skills, with all healing coming from weapon skills, class mechanics, traits, utility and elite skills with health bars adjusted to match.

    The Psychomancer: Mesmer Elite Specialization Suggestion

  • Aza.2105Aza.2105 Member ✭✭✭

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:
    I hope that people who voted in favour of damage being too high , do realize that their sustain would have to be adjusted in relation to any change in applicable damage.

    I've always been curious what GW2 would look like without dedicated heal skills, with all healing coming from weapon skills, class mechanics, traits, utility and elite skills with health bars adjusted to match.

    Oh you mean like black desert online? Then it would be worse.

  • Dreddo.9865Dreddo.9865 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 26, 2018
    Damage output is too high.

    @Arheundel.6451 said:
    I hope that people who voted in favour of damage being too high , do realize that their sustain would have to be adjusted in relation to any change in applicable damage.

    What is the ...sustain of necro class when dying in milliseconds against deadeye, that can be 'adjusted'? I am sorry but this mode is always taking steps in the wrong direction when class balance come into play and something must be done before the mode goes totally dead (is almost dead atm).

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Damage output is fine.

    @Aza.2105 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:
    I hope that people who voted in favour of damage being too high , do realize that their sustain would have to be adjusted in relation to any change in applicable damage.

    I've always been curious what GW2 would look like without dedicated heal skills, with all healing coming from weapon skills, class mechanics, traits, utility and elite skills with health bars adjusted to match.

    Oh you mean like black desert online? Then it would be worse.

    Like a normal RPG where some classes are balanced around having access to self healing and / or party healing and some aren't.

    The Psychomancer: Mesmer Elite Specialization Suggestion

  • Damage output is too high.

    Boonspams silly, ridiculous in some cases. Reduce this and alot of the cancer issues will be nullified to a degree as well.

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Damage output is fine.

    @dceptaconroy.7928 said:
    Boonspams silly, ridiculous in some cases. Reduce this and alot of the cancer issues will be nullified to a degree as well.

    Boonspam in intervals should be considered a valid tactic given the nature of the game and the way balance has evolved up to this point, we are far beyond the point of no return for that but...we're still in time to deal with overtop boonspam which is basically without interruptions and proper counterplay ( boonbeast and holosmith to a certain degree ). Boonspam in a vacuum could be considered silly but you forget to mention things like rapid condi application and boonstrip

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

  • TwiceDead.1963TwiceDead.1963 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 26, 2018
    Damage output is too high.

    Damage is too high yes, but so is the kitten sustain. You need to rein both of these back in. If you lower the damage but keep the current sustain, PvP will be a fight between two Sloths waiting for the other to fall asleep first.

  • Damage output is fine.

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Axl.8924 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Apolo.5942 said:
    Been saying it is too high and that combat needs to slow way down, for quite a while now.

    People are too simple minded to realice that lower damage does not need to equate to 2 hours fights, but right know range, condi and mobility is king has been for a long while.

    This damage swing came about after "pros" whined that 2 bunker builds could not kill each other. Of course none of them play the game any longer and we got to deal with this mess.

    Condi is king? Aside from Mirage and Scourge nothing are rocking condition damage. And Reaper is at the very least just as popular of a build for ranked as Scourge if not moderately more popular than Scourge. The reality is condition cleanses and conversion into boons are both extremely over tuned at this point. Most classes can quickly throw off 3-7+ conditions repeatedly over the course of a single fight, or have strong resistance uptime. Scourge and Mirage are the only condition classes capable of keeping up not because their condition damage is high (It's not. Scourge and Mirage are actually some of the lowest condition damage available) but because they have a wide range of conditions (Or in Scourge's case a wide range of conditions and boon corruption) that gives their conditions a chance to dodge condition cleanses entirely.

    Condition damage has completely fallen behind Power Damage in the scheme of things. To put this into perspective; Condition Berserker, Condition Firebrand, Condition Weaver, and Condition Holosmith have the higher condition pressure. Far, far beyond what Condition Mirage and Scourge are capable of. But even putting aside other weaknesses in those builds, the single biggest weakness that prevents them from ever becoming meta is the fact that when every class can effortlessly throw off 5+ conditions multiple times a fight, the bulk of their damage being tied down into one or two conditions means their effective damage output is zero.

    Arenanet really needs to look at both normalizing the spread of conditions, balancing all classes around 2-3 damaging conditions with more serious ramping power. And also heavily pulling back condition cleanses to compensate for it. Cleanses are the condition damage equivalent to protection. It's supposed to help you negate damage, but at this point unless you're a build that can shotgun 6 conditions at once your effective damage output as condi is 0.

    Anet should nerf condition cleanses by 50%+ across the board then trim Mirage's condition spread and condense it into fewer conditions. Right now power damage is absolutely over tuned compared to condition damage 7/9 classes are exclusively running power on a meta level. Mirage is mostly exclusively condi and Necro run a 50/50 split of condi and power.

    Your signature suggestions are terrible.

    In another post I mentioned the fact that condition clears was far too prevalent somewhere and it chokeholds condition builds, but the biggest issue, is that in order for conditions to succeed, it needs to burst people down instantly.

    The classes that spread conditions need loads of sustain to keep themselves alive, because if condis don't burst and slowly trickle, then you need enough sustain to watch people die, and you cannot have as many condi cleanses, because you wont be able to kill anyone.Maybe condi cleanses should be limited based on the class such as necros eles and revs being anti condi classes.

    In wow, lets take for instance shadow priests:Shadow priests which are big on dots, and do mass spreadable dot that goes from person to person, has relatively decent damage.It doesn't instantly burst people down, but they used to have ways to escape. They also are insta cast. I almost feel like some of the condis need to be either insta cast to be effective, or you need a whole lot of mobility combined to keep you alive, or a truckload of sustain and invulns to keep you alive a really long time.

    I also don't think every class should have tons of mobility either. Someone said that every class has so much evades mobility, and there certainly right to a certain extent. Not just thieves are ultra mobile, but mesmers, holosmiths as well are ultra mobile. Maybe something needs to be created that counters mobile, or have a anti mobility spec that's really super strong versus mobile specs to counter all these super mobile specs.

    All good points. I really want to see all the condition cleanses and conversions straight up reduced by 50%-75%. I genuinely think that's needed. Mesmers should have their cover conditions trimmed and their damaging conditions condensed into fewer conditions, mostly torment and confusion for thematic reasons with maybe a bit of burning with the torch skills. I think the reason you've seen tons of power creep when it comes to conditions cleanses is because Anet is a bit too focused on the only two meta builds keeping up and is power creeping cleanses in an arm race.

    But like let's say a Burn Firebrand vs. a Core Guardian. The Firebrand has a lot of self sustain just like the core guardian, it has easy application of it's condition skills. But that burn Firebrand will never be able to hurt the Core Guardian. How could it? The Firebrand has almost entirely burning and a little bit of bleed. And that's somehow supposed to punch through this:

    2x Condition Cleanse on Heal with Lesser Smite Condition
    2x Condition Cleanse on Virtue of Resolve
    2x Condition Cleanse on Smite Condition.
    12x Condition Conversion on Contemplation of Purity
    Condition Immunity during Renewed Focus
    2x condition Cleanse on Virtue of Resolve

    Now I'm not saying that Core Guardian is OP. It's not and it fits into the meta moderately well, but it's condition cleanses are so over the top for anything not a Scourge or a Mirage and against Mirage at least it can survive for a while.

    Or warriors who have:
    Healing Signet 6 seconds resistance
    12x Condition Cleanse with Signet of Stamina
    6x Condition Cleanse x 2 with Shake it Off
    Maybe running Berserker Stance still 4 seconds resistance

    Unless you're a Mirage or Scourge you aren't going to be able to punch through that with condition damage. Period.

    I mean. As a guardian, you're taking two traitlines, two utilities and an elite to get that condition clear.
    This is the equivalent of mesmers running inspiration with null field and arcane thievery. Any class that specs for Condi clears will have a lot of Condi clear.

    ~ God Tier Guardian

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 26, 2018
    Damage output is fine.

    @AngelLovesFredrik.6741 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Axl.8924 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Apolo.5942 said:
    Been saying it is too high and that combat needs to slow way down, for quite a while now.

    People are too simple minded to realice that lower damage does not need to equate to 2 hours fights, but right know range, condi and mobility is king has been for a long while.

    This damage swing came about after "pros" whined that 2 bunker builds could not kill each other. Of course none of them play the game any longer and we got to deal with this mess.

    Condi is king? Aside from Mirage and Scourge nothing are rocking condition damage. And Reaper is at the very least just as popular of a build for ranked as Scourge if not moderately more popular than Scourge. The reality is condition cleanses and conversion into boons are both extremely over tuned at this point. Most classes can quickly throw off 3-7+ conditions repeatedly over the course of a single fight, or have strong resistance uptime. Scourge and Mirage are the only condition classes capable of keeping up not because their condition damage is high (It's not. Scourge and Mirage are actually some of the lowest condition damage available) but because they have a wide range of conditions (Or in Scourge's case a wide range of conditions and boon corruption) that gives their conditions a chance to dodge condition cleanses entirely.

    Condition damage has completely fallen behind Power Damage in the scheme of things. To put this into perspective; Condition Berserker, Condition Firebrand, Condition Weaver, and Condition Holosmith have the higher condition pressure. Far, far beyond what Condition Mirage and Scourge are capable of. But even putting aside other weaknesses in those builds, the single biggest weakness that prevents them from ever becoming meta is the fact that when every class can effortlessly throw off 5+ conditions multiple times a fight, the bulk of their damage being tied down into one or two conditions means their effective damage output is zero.

    Arenanet really needs to look at both normalizing the spread of conditions, balancing all classes around 2-3 damaging conditions with more serious ramping power. And also heavily pulling back condition cleanses to compensate for it. Cleanses are the condition damage equivalent to protection. It's supposed to help you negate damage, but at this point unless you're a build that can shotgun 6 conditions at once your effective damage output as condi is 0.

    Anet should nerf condition cleanses by 50%+ across the board then trim Mirage's condition spread and condense it into fewer conditions. Right now power damage is absolutely over tuned compared to condition damage 7/9 classes are exclusively running power on a meta level. Mirage is mostly exclusively condi and Necro run a 50/50 split of condi and power.

    Your signature suggestions are terrible.

    In another post I mentioned the fact that condition clears was far too prevalent somewhere and it chokeholds condition builds, but the biggest issue, is that in order for conditions to succeed, it needs to burst people down instantly.

    The classes that spread conditions need loads of sustain to keep themselves alive, because if condis don't burst and slowly trickle, then you need enough sustain to watch people die, and you cannot have as many condi cleanses, because you wont be able to kill anyone.Maybe condi cleanses should be limited based on the class such as necros eles and revs being anti condi classes.

    In wow, lets take for instance shadow priests:Shadow priests which are big on dots, and do mass spreadable dot that goes from person to person, has relatively decent damage.It doesn't instantly burst people down, but they used to have ways to escape. They also are insta cast. I almost feel like some of the condis need to be either insta cast to be effective, or you need a whole lot of mobility combined to keep you alive, or a truckload of sustain and invulns to keep you alive a really long time.

    I also don't think every class should have tons of mobility either. Someone said that every class has so much evades mobility, and there certainly right to a certain extent. Not just thieves are ultra mobile, but mesmers, holosmiths as well are ultra mobile. Maybe something needs to be created that counters mobile, or have a anti mobility spec that's really super strong versus mobile specs to counter all these super mobile specs.

    All good points. I really want to see all the condition cleanses and conversions straight up reduced by 50%-75%. I genuinely think that's needed. Mesmers should have their cover conditions trimmed and their damaging conditions condensed into fewer conditions, mostly torment and confusion for thematic reasons with maybe a bit of burning with the torch skills. I think the reason you've seen tons of power creep when it comes to conditions cleanses is because Anet is a bit too focused on the only two meta builds keeping up and is power creeping cleanses in an arm race.

    But like let's say a Burn Firebrand vs. a Core Guardian. The Firebrand has a lot of self sustain just like the core guardian, it has easy application of it's condition skills. But that burn Firebrand will never be able to hurt the Core Guardian. How could it? The Firebrand has almost entirely burning and a little bit of bleed. And that's somehow supposed to punch through this:

    2x Condition Cleanse on Heal with Lesser Smite Condition
    2x Condition Cleanse on Virtue of Resolve
    2x Condition Cleanse on Smite Condition.
    12x Condition Conversion on Contemplation of Purity
    Condition Immunity during Renewed Focus
    2x condition Cleanse on Virtue of Resolve

    Now I'm not saying that Core Guardian is OP. It's not and it fits into the meta moderately well, but it's condition cleanses are so over the top for anything not a Scourge or a Mirage and against Mirage at least it can survive for a while.

    Or warriors who have:
    Healing Signet 6 seconds resistance
    12x Condition Cleanse with Signet of Stamina
    6x Condition Cleanse x 2 with Shake it Off
    Maybe running Berserker Stance still 4 seconds resistance

    Unless you're a Mirage or Scourge you aren't going to be able to punch through that with condition damage. Period.

    I mean. As a guardian, you're taking two traitlines, two utilities and an elite to get that condition clear.
    This is the equivalent of mesmers running inspiration with null field and arcane thievery. Any class that specs for Condi clears will have a lot of Condi clear.

    While guardian is the stand out, pretty much every class except Revanant have so much condition removal as to be functionally immune to literally every condition damage build not named Mirage and Scourge. Thieves less so but they've always had the evades to make tagging them in general enough of a job in the hands of a skilled one.

    Even with tons of condition removal, no class should be functionally immune to condition damage the way no one is functionally immune to power damage. Condition damage output should be rebalanced around 2 primary damaging conditions, with and occasional 3rd condition for high cooldown damage ramping (I'd let necromancers still have their corruption thing for flavor reasons) and condition cleanses should be trimmed across the board by 50-75% to rebalance this. Cleanses should be like any active defense, smart use should save you but poor use leave you vulnerable to much of your enemy's damage.

    The meta game vs. a condi spec should be picking the perfect time to wipe conditions interrupting a ramp up, rather than everyone literally being able to shrug everything off for upwards a minute at a time while face taking incoming attacks.

    Again, the level of condition cleanses makes condition builds across the entire following classes; Warrior, Guardian, Revananent, Ranger, Engineer, Thief (At least I haven't seen a condi thief in platinum since the last time they were nerfed, though design wise they struggle less than other builds), Elementalist, completely nonplayable with condition variants. Like you might as well queue into a match with no weapons levels of nonplayable.

    The Psychomancer: Mesmer Elite Specialization Suggestion

  • Axl.8924Axl.8924 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Damage output is fine.

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @AngelLovesFredrik.6741 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Axl.8924 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Apolo.5942 said:
    Been saying it is too high and that combat needs to slow way down, for quite a while now.

    People are too simple minded to realice that lower damage does not need to equate to 2 hours fights, but right know range, condi and mobility is king has been for a long while.

    This damage swing came about after "pros" whined that 2 bunker builds could not kill each other. Of course none of them play the game any longer and we got to deal with this mess.

    Condi is king? Aside from Mirage and Scourge nothing are rocking condition damage. And Reaper is at the very least just as popular of a build for ranked as Scourge if not moderately more popular than Scourge. The reality is condition cleanses and conversion into boons are both extremely over tuned at this point. Most classes can quickly throw off 3-7+ conditions repeatedly over the course of a single fight, or have strong resistance uptime. Scourge and Mirage are the only condition classes capable of keeping up not because their condition damage is high (It's not. Scourge and Mirage are actually some of the lowest condition damage available) but because they have a wide range of conditions (Or in Scourge's case a wide range of conditions and boon corruption) that gives their conditions a chance to dodge condition cleanses entirely.

    Condition damage has completely fallen behind Power Damage in the scheme of things. To put this into perspective; Condition Berserker, Condition Firebrand, Condition Weaver, and Condition Holosmith have the higher condition pressure. Far, far beyond what Condition Mirage and Scourge are capable of. But even putting aside other weaknesses in those builds, the single biggest weakness that prevents them from ever becoming meta is the fact that when every class can effortlessly throw off 5+ conditions multiple times a fight, the bulk of their damage being tied down into one or two conditions means their effective damage output is zero.

    Arenanet really needs to look at both normalizing the spread of conditions, balancing all classes around 2-3 damaging conditions with more serious ramping power. And also heavily pulling back condition cleanses to compensate for it. Cleanses are the condition damage equivalent to protection. It's supposed to help you negate damage, but at this point unless you're a build that can shotgun 6 conditions at once your effective damage output as condi is 0.

    Anet should nerf condition cleanses by 50%+ across the board then trim Mirage's condition spread and condense it into fewer conditions. Right now power damage is absolutely over tuned compared to condition damage 7/9 classes are exclusively running power on a meta level. Mirage is mostly exclusively condi and Necro run a 50/50 split of condi and power.

    Your signature suggestions are terrible.

    In another post I mentioned the fact that condition clears was far too prevalent somewhere and it chokeholds condition builds, but the biggest issue, is that in order for conditions to succeed, it needs to burst people down instantly.

    The classes that spread conditions need loads of sustain to keep themselves alive, because if condis don't burst and slowly trickle, then you need enough sustain to watch people die, and you cannot have as many condi cleanses, because you wont be able to kill anyone.Maybe condi cleanses should be limited based on the class such as necros eles and revs being anti condi classes.

    In wow, lets take for instance shadow priests:Shadow priests which are big on dots, and do mass spreadable dot that goes from person to person, has relatively decent damage.It doesn't instantly burst people down, but they used to have ways to escape. They also are insta cast. I almost feel like some of the condis need to be either insta cast to be effective, or you need a whole lot of mobility combined to keep you alive, or a truckload of sustain and invulns to keep you alive a really long time.

    I also don't think every class should have tons of mobility either. Someone said that every class has so much evades mobility, and there certainly right to a certain extent. Not just thieves are ultra mobile, but mesmers, holosmiths as well are ultra mobile. Maybe something needs to be created that counters mobile, or have a anti mobility spec that's really super strong versus mobile specs to counter all these super mobile specs.

    All good points. I really want to see all the condition cleanses and conversions straight up reduced by 50%-75%. I genuinely think that's needed. Mesmers should have their cover conditions trimmed and their damaging conditions condensed into fewer conditions, mostly torment and confusion for thematic reasons with maybe a bit of burning with the torch skills. I think the reason you've seen tons of power creep when it comes to conditions cleanses is because Anet is a bit too focused on the only two meta builds keeping up and is power creeping cleanses in an arm race.

    But like let's say a Burn Firebrand vs. a Core Guardian. The Firebrand has a lot of self sustain just like the core guardian, it has easy application of it's condition skills. But that burn Firebrand will never be able to hurt the Core Guardian. How could it? The Firebrand has almost entirely burning and a little bit of bleed. And that's somehow supposed to punch through this:

    2x Condition Cleanse on Heal with Lesser Smite Condition
    2x Condition Cleanse on Virtue of Resolve
    2x Condition Cleanse on Smite Condition.
    12x Condition Conversion on Contemplation of Purity
    Condition Immunity during Renewed Focus
    2x condition Cleanse on Virtue of Resolve

    Now I'm not saying that Core Guardian is OP. It's not and it fits into the meta moderately well, but it's condition cleanses are so over the top for anything not a Scourge or a Mirage and against Mirage at least it can survive for a while.

    Or warriors who have:
    Healing Signet 6 seconds resistance
    12x Condition Cleanse with Signet of Stamina
    6x Condition Cleanse x 2 with Shake it Off
    Maybe running Berserker Stance still 4 seconds resistance

    Unless you're a Mirage or Scourge you aren't going to be able to punch through that with condition damage. Period.

    I mean. As a guardian, you're taking two traitlines, two utilities and an elite to get that condition clear.
    This is the equivalent of mesmers running inspiration with null field and arcane thievery. Any class that specs for Condi clears will have a lot of Condi clear.

    While guardian is the stand out, pretty much every class except Revanant have so much condition removal as to be functionally immune to literally every condition damage build not named Mirage and Scourge.

    Even with tons of condition removal, no class should be functionally immune to condition damage the way no one is functionally immune to power damage. Condition damage output should be rebalanced around 2 primary damaging conditions, with and occasional 3rd condition for high cooldown damage ramping (I'd let necromancers still have their corruption thing for flavor reasons) and condition cleanses should be trimmed across the board by 50-75% to rebalance this. Cleanses should be like any active defense, smart use should save you but poor use leave you vulnerable to much of your enemy's damage.

    The meta game vs. a condi spec should be picking the perfect time to wipe conditions interrupting a ramp up, rather than everyone literally being able to shrug everything off for upwards a minute at a time while face taking incoming attacks.

    Again, the level of condition cleanses makes condition builds across the entire following classes; Warrior, Guardian, Revananent, Ranger, Engineer, Thief (At least I haven't seen a condi thief in platinum since the last time they were nerfed, though design wise they struggle less than other builds), Elementalist, completely nonplayable. Like you might as well queue into a match with no weapons levels of nonplayable.

    They shouldn't increase condis though, as having low stacks of condi and smaller amounts of cleanse means it would be balanced.

    I agree with you though on that, plus on top of that resist is super strong anti condi and created to combat condi and made real strong on specific classes.

    Here is my list of characters i got so far:

    Elementalist 80 with tempest:Talman nul
    Necromancer 80 with reaper:Zex vokar
    Mesmer level 80 no chrono yet:Klanga voosh.
    Level 80 Ranger with druid spec Jedkhan.

  • Axl.8924Axl.8924 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Damage output is fine.

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @dceptaconroy.7928 said:
    Boonspams silly, ridiculous in some cases. Reduce this and alot of the cancer issues will be nullified to a degree as well.

    Boonspam in intervals should be considered a valid tactic given the nature of the game and the way balance has evolved up to this point, we are far beyond the point of no return for that but...we're still in time to deal with overtop boonspam which is basically without interruptions and proper counterplay ( boonbeast and holosmith to a certain degree ). Boonspam in a vacuum could be considered silly but you forget to mention things like rapid condi application and boonstrip

    I disagree, too much boonspam is bad for the game in pvp. Some boons? yes but having multiple stacks of things on at the same time is pure insanity. Being able to put 25 stacks of might ferocity retatialtion protection resist etc is just too much vs classes which don't have nearly that much boons they can, because you cant really compete unless you have some way to spam boons on yourself to deal as much damage and protect yourself.

    Also some classes its pure insanity how much protection might stability etc they can spam, just far too much. I know cc is a problem, and the amount of cc flying around also needs to be cut down so its more strategic than just spamming cc non stop. while damaging.

    Here is my list of characters i got so far:

    Elementalist 80 with tempest:Talman nul
    Necromancer 80 with reaper:Zex vokar
    Mesmer level 80 no chrono yet:Klanga voosh.
    Level 80 Ranger with druid spec Jedkhan.

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Damage output is fine.

    @Axl.8924 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @dceptaconroy.7928 said:
    Boonspams silly, ridiculous in some cases. Reduce this and alot of the cancer issues will be nullified to a degree as well.

    Boonspam in intervals should be considered a valid tactic given the nature of the game and the way balance has evolved up to this point, we are far beyond the point of no return for that but...we're still in time to deal with overtop boonspam which is basically without interruptions and proper counterplay ( boonbeast and holosmith to a certain degree ). Boonspam in a vacuum could be considered silly but you forget to mention things like rapid condi application and boonstrip

    I disagree, too much boonspam is bad for the game in pvp. Some boons? yes but having multiple stacks of things on at the same time is pure insanity. Being able to put 25 stacks of might ferocity retatialtion protection resist etc is just too much vs classes which don't have nearly that much boons they can, because you cant really compete unless you have some way to spam boons on yourself to deal as much damage and protect yourself.

    Also some classes its pure insanity how much protection might stability etc they can spam, just far too much. I know cc is a problem, and the amount of cc flying around also needs to be cut down so its more strategic than just spamming cc non stop. while damaging.

    I think stuff like Spellbreaker should hard counter anything boonspammy. Like the thesis statement of spellbreak is that it is supposed to punish boons. Dagger, break Enchantments, Winds of Disenchantment and traits like Loss Aversion should terrify things like Boonbeast, Elixir Holos, and Chaos Mirages and that style of Spellbreaker should be thriving in this meta as an antimeta counter and instead Spellbreaker is starting to fall behind and its best build isn't even running stuff designed against this exact meta.

    The Psychomancer: Mesmer Elite Specialization Suggestion

  • Burnfall.9573Burnfall.9573 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 27, 2018
    Damage output is too high.

    @gateless gate.8406 said:
    As someone relatively new to PVP, damage appears... insane. As does CC.

    There are classes that can burst for 20k-30k in about three seconds. That's the potential damage output of just one player. Now add an additional four enemies, and teamfights are just clown fiestas. I'm sure experienced players can make decent sense out of what's happening in teamfights, but as a new-ish player, when 2-3 people target you at the same time, you get deleted faster than you can cast your heal skill. I repeat: You go from 100% to 0% faster than you can activate your heal skill. And I usually play with somewhat tanky amulet stats. It seems the only way to mitigate this are the different forms of invulnerability, which many people in this thread have confirmed.

    When damage gets so high that you need multiple insta-cast invulnerabilities to participate, something has gone very wrong. And this doesn't even touch on the flood of CC that comes pouring out of players, rendering my character into a digital ping-pong ball.

    Very well said! Gateless

  • Damage output is too high.

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @dceptaconroy.7928 said:
    Boonspams silly, ridiculous in some cases. Reduce this and alot of the cancer issues will be nullified to a degree as well.

    Boonspam in intervals should be considered a valid tactic given the nature of the game and the way balance has evolved up to this point, we are far beyond the point of no return for that but...we're still in time to deal with overtop boonspam which is basically without interruptions and proper counterplay ( boonbeast and holosmith to a certain degree ). Boonspam in a vacuum could be considered silly but you forget to mention things like rapid condi application and boonstrip

    I get ya. Some classes also cleanse condis as fast as they're applied then reapply boons and laugh it off with plenty of sustain or vanish. Dont stand in red circles hide behind a rock for 10 seconds like me a power reaper with stuff all life force and even less defense. It's all a bit of a mess really. Why cant everyone be mediocre like me...lol.

  • apharma.3741apharma.3741 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Damage output is too high.

    206 votes, that's a lot more than I'd hoped. I wonder what the patch on the 8th Jan will bring, balance changes or just LW?

  • Damage output is too high.

    Damage is too high. Bunkers are using a ton of defensive skills and become a problem. Just lower their defensive skills.

  • rng.1024rng.1024 Member ✭✭✭
    Damage output is fine.

    Damage output is fine, I thoroughfully enjoy having to rely on active defenses for the most part, although some outliers would benefit from being reigned in. A good way to do that without cutting numbers, would be to make trait tiers competitive. Meaning in order to reach the highest numbers you'd need to sacrifice something substantial in terms of convenience. It makes no sense for 1 skill to do more than 10k damage, so wouldn't mind a soft cap of sorts around there. Giving some weapon traits decreased cooldown for slightly less damage but more utility would also go a long way.

  • You can change the time to kill without changing the ratio of damage vs sustain at all, this thread is weird.

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭
    Damage output is too high.

    They need to severely cut down the Damage and scaleable defenses.

    Cut down blocks and invulns etc to max 2 seconds, lower damage across the board, look at Mirage, Holo and Soulbeast and just reduce all numbers by 50%.
    But seriously, I enjoy PvP a lot more when it's more strategy based rather than whoever chains CC/damage like a macro kills the other player in 3 seconds, with smashing a stunbreak+scaleable defense being the only counter.

    "As you know, those who you once called friends have become enemies." ~Glint

  • Damage output is too high.

    took y'all a few years to realise this painfully obvious fact that I've been saying since HoT came out

    pity anets glacial balance team won't fix it

    Mastered in Classics, don't think I can land this
    Think we're gonna crash blissfully out of the sky

  • MyPuppy.8970MyPuppy.8970 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Damage being high isn't a problem if there is very limited sustain/mitigation/engage/disengage. E.g. Reaper without support.
    Sustain being high isn't a problem if there is very limited offensive pressure. E.g. Mender sword weaver.

    What is a problem are self-sufficient builds, negating roles and synergies between classes, having both sustain, resilience, damage immunity, mobility, and constant damage pressure with little downtime. Well, more than both actually. What is wrong are the All-in-one builds. sPvP isn't solo PVE story instance.

    There is no balance if there is no trade-off. The Jack-of-all-trades master of all must stop. At this point the absence of trinity backfired. DPS specs healing from 10% to almost full shouldn't exist. Hard to kill specs being able to 100-0 someone in less than 10s shouldn't exist.

    What is the point of playing as a group, comboing skills/traits with teammates, if anyone can just faceroll anything by himself without risk?

  • Damage output is too high.

    Been here since 2012 and barely played any of the PvE. All I did was PvP, it feels like everything now is just. It now feels like tons of people are being carried SO much more by their classes passive abilities; throw down CC/AOEs, faceroll while your passives do the work and just jump the person who forgot to spec resistance of some type of block, invulnerability or teleport. I remember back in the day people used to talk about how broken it was for anybody to be invulnerable to damage while still being able to deal it..

    Now, it feels like if you don't run SOMETHING like that, you're just feeding the other team cause of how bad the power creep is.

    PvP is fun in /VERY/ short bursts with friends but.. now it's so much different. I can barely stand half an hour with the toxic community and gameplay that enables it.

  • darwinslittlehelper.7182darwinslittlehelper.7182 Member ✭✭
    edited January 28, 2019
    Damage output is too high.

    As per a suggestion from apharma.3741, I have copied the last part of my post from another thread as relevant:

    I could go on about other things that I think are a problem, but others may not see it the same way . Full disclosure, I became pretty casual with PVP, and for a number of seasons have been uncaring of rank or placement. I am not a great player by any means, but improve if I play more. I don't afk or try to lose, and if I get tilted, I do something else. Not caring has become easier, because the same problems that has stuck pvp in this place have not been solved or mitigated.

    To wit- Damage is too high. Defenses are too frequent. Condition clears negate most condition application too easily, invalidating most condition play unless multi- condi burst. Too many skills do far too much, for little cost of investment. Some defenses such as health investment have been massively overwhelmed by powercreep, while evades have become more powerful. Long chains of evading while doing massive damage should not exist. AoE is frequent, easy and ubiquitous. Many, many skills seem to have an AoE or cleave component, just because they do. These problems are not exclusive to Mesmer, but all professions to some degree. TTK is ludicrously short much of the time, and there is not much feedback on what exactly happened. Visual noise is a mess.

    I have tried to interest others into PvP, people far more invested in this kind of competition than I, but I keep getting some version of what I wrote above. "great basis, good potential- what happened to this game? I would rather play …(insert other pvp) if they can't sort this out"

    If ArenaNet wants the perception of PvP to change, they must be willing to make the big changes to professions and modes. Otherwise, the decline will continue, and the many, many people who could be playing PvP will not be interested.
    My two cents

  • Chorazin.4107Chorazin.4107 Member ✭✭✭
    Damage output is too high.

    Always amusing seeing a game where everyone is watching for the 1 shot Rev. Where is the Rev, Ok hes on map inc now to point, he's going to bur.... we have a down! rezrezrez.

    That and the general power creep, I should dodge that ability, and the next one, and the one after that, in fact they all hit for 6k so im just going to die as soon as my dodges run out.

    [lion] - [tRex] - [nâh]

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Damage output is fine.

    Outside deadeye able to stealth over and over when the burst fail...there is nothing else outside the ordinary , super burst should be an acceptable role and it's needed in the grand scheme of things to offset super bunkers and others.

    People can learn to adapt to the situation and stop pretending that conquest is a deathmatch, you win games by outrotating the enemy and win fights that can be won if you can't beat something...move to other points, if you lose...better luck next time.

    -LoS those burst specs and they will quickly run out of steam and flee
    -Ask assistance to your team if you can't handle the spec on your own
    -Change build/class when game start..there is something out there that can pressure/annoy those burst specs

    Again and again, this is a MMO for casuals not a moba ....

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

  • Chorazin.4107Chorazin.4107 Member ✭✭✭
    Damage output is too high.

    What super bunkers still exist? Seems all the bunker amulets are gone, you can get vit healing power on an amulet I guess is as close as you can get from an amulet point of view.

    [lion] - [tRex] - [nâh]

  • Damage output is too high.

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Apolo.5942 said:
    Been saying it is too high and that combat needs to slow way down, for quite a while now.

    People are too simple minded to realice that lower damage does not need to equate to 2 hours fights, but right know range, condi and mobility is king has been for a long while.

    This damage swing came about after "pros" whined that 2 bunker builds could not kill each other. Of course none of them play the game any longer and we got to deal with this mess.

    Condi is king? Aside from Mirage and Scourge nothing are rocking condition damage. And Reaper is at the very least just as popular of a build for ranked as Scourge if not moderately more popular than Scourge. The reality is condition cleanses and conversion into boons are both extremely over tuned at this point. Most classes can quickly throw off 3-7+ conditions repeatedly over the course of a single fight, or have strong resistance uptime. Scourge and Mirage are the only condition classes capable of keeping up not because their condition damage is high (It's not. Scourge and Mirage are actually some of the lowest condition damage available) but because they have a wide range of conditions (Or in Scourge's case a wide range of conditions and boon corruption) that gives their conditions a chance to dodge condition cleanses entirely.

    Condition damage has completely fallen behind Power Damage in the scheme of things. To put this into perspective; Condition Berserker, Condition Firebrand, Condition Weaver, and Condition Holosmith have the higher condition pressure. Far, far beyond what Condition Mirage and Scourge are capable of. But even putting aside other weaknesses in those builds, the single biggest weakness that prevents them from ever becoming meta is the fact that when every class can effortlessly throw off 5+ conditions multiple times a fight, the bulk of their damage being tied down into one or two conditions means their effective damage output is zero.

    Arenanet really needs to look at both normalizing the spread of conditions, balancing all classes around 2-3 damaging conditions with more serious ramping power. And also heavily pulling back condition cleanses to compensate for it. Cleanses are the condition damage equivalent to protection. It's supposed to help you negate damage, but at this point unless you're a build that can shotgun 6 conditions at once your effective damage output as condi is 0.

    Anet should nerf condition cleanses by 50%+ across the board then trim Mirage's condition spread and condense it into fewer conditions. Right now power damage is absolutely over tuned compared to condition damage 7/9 classes are exclusively running power on a meta level. Mirage is mostly exclusively condi and Necro run a 50/50 split of condi and power.

    Your signature suggestions are terrible.

    Strong post.

  • Damage output is too high.

    Damage outlut is way too high. Content that used to be difficult is now easy.

    A lot of technical bits of the game have basically been circumvented with more professions having more ways to shake them off.

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 1, 2019
    Damage output is too high.

    a couple of coefficients + low cds are at fault here, but mainly its ez 25 might and +damage % mods. I think this burst meta is turning a lot of ppl off to pvp since you cant learn anything when you die in 3 secs.

    pew~

  • Brendan.1309Brendan.1309 Member ✭✭
    edited February 1, 2019
    Damage output is fine.

    With Coordinated 5 person teams Damage is very high.
    1v1s can go on for minutes even if one person is running a glassy burst build because of all the evades, invulnerability, etc, in the game and someone might just decide they are going to disengage.

    A lot of thought and consideration needs to be taken for people that duo queue FB/scourge.
    How much is damage lowered, is it flat across the board, is it just certain offenders?
    What is the new thing that ruins the game if the damage is lowered?

    Are people going to complain no matter what?

  • Durzlla.6295Durzlla.6295 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Damage output is fine.

    I think damage output is fine, but I love the very low time to kill.

    That being said, I 100% understand why people would say it’s high, and wouldn’t be too upset if they lowered damage a bit, just as long as it doesn’t revert back to the glacial kill speeds that were the bunker meta.

    "But my children sing to me. Listen. They sing dark, delicious notes about power and family. As their mother, I have to grant them their wish."

  • JETWING.2759JETWING.2759 Member ✭✭✭
    Damage output is too high.

    Mesmer killing in less than 1s is one example...

  • Lilyanna.9361Lilyanna.9361 Member ✭✭✭
    Damage output is too high.

    Tell me why gw2 has these jack of all trades builds, but then ele gets nerfed for that same exact reason.

    This game is the epitomy of hypocrisy and favoritism.

  • Damage output is too high.

    @Rouien.5234 said:
    Been here since 2012 and barely played any of the PvE. All I did was PvP, it feels like everything now is just. It now feels like tons of people are being carried SO much more by their classes passive abilities

    Not just passives, also easy to land, spamable, high dmg/sustain abilities.

    The auto target of skill shots must go away in pvp. Dont know who thought this would be a good idea in pvp and why no one is mentioning it.

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 2, 2019
    Damage output is too high.

    @Lilyanna.9361 said:
    Tell me why gw2 has these jack of all trades builds, but then ele gets nerfed for that same exact reason.

    This game is the epitomy of hypocrisy and favoritism.

    I do not think so. In fact I would access that GW2 does decent monitoring. However, the issue is 2 folds:

    1) anet understands when something is over performing, but rarely understand why and do not measure changes. This is why you the same exact build nerfed or buffed 5-6 patches in a row.

    2) anet ignores none meta builds/skills. I think the moto is: “if no one uses it why change it.”

    And ya, damage is way too high. Not only cuz damage high, but cuz there are million CCs. If you get CCed and you do not have a break, you can literally be downed with full HP in under 2 secs from one player.

  • Damage output is too high.

    back to core standards at least is all I'm asking even that wasn't perfect but compared to now it's just a masterpiece.

  • Damage output is too high.

    The overall damage output is easily too high, which becomes very apparent in sPvP.

    I consider myself a good support firebrand, but there is simply nothing I can do when I get CC chained and bursted by a holo and deadeye. No matter how high my Healing Power is, or how perfected my rotation, I will simply get deleted in a split second.

    Unfortunately, this makes the game less about skill and reading the situation well, thereby facilitating distinctions between OK and good players, and more about running into a group fight and dropping whatever damage abilities you may have available.

  • apharma.3741apharma.3741 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Damage output is too high.

    Nearly 300 votes, thanks for giving feedback, hopefully Arena Net is looking at this poll and taking notes.

  • Damage output is too high.

    Is damage too high or HP too low?

  • On some specs in comparison to others that’s a big yes!

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Damage output is too high.

    @James.1065 said:
    Is damage too high or HP too low?

    I would say HP is too low, but the result is the same.

  • BlackTruth.6813BlackTruth.6813 Member ✭✭
    edited February 11, 2019

    Damage is fine right now, it HAS to be high because there is so many evades. Just a small shave should reach balance. More damage gives people a reasonable chance vs. spamming defensive mechanics and spamming evades. This meta is a lot better than HoT release, and that's a good thing that there's more damage because there's more back and forth.

    I'll make it easier to understand actually, if it is REASONABLY becoming more reasonable to count people's defensive cds and evades (with the exception of Mirage), then the meta is becoming better.

    In a tanky meta, the team who 3 caps first wins, people SHOULD NOT die within 1 minute MINIMUM, THAT's boring and pointless. Obviously the best meta was pre-HoT 2015, just need a few more changes and it'll be close to there.

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