Jump to content
  • Sign Up

Ban ArcDPS and any third party program


Recommended Posts

@Dante.1763 said:

I decided a long, long time ago, this kind of kitten is not for me, and sometimes I meme about the dps meter to friends when we do fractals or something. Who really cares about it? Why not make some actual friends that don't care about srs bzness, and actually play the game?

Saddly hard to do when it comes to raids. Even my actual friend that i do raid with from time to time gives me kitten for being lower than 10k dps.

If the other players do 20k dps then 10k dps is half a raid player.

If all 10 players only count as half a raid player then you are practically 5 manning 10 man content. That will most time not work for pug runs, so it is understandable that your friend might complain a bit if they don't feel confident in low manning the content.

He sends me the logs so i know thats not the case. The highest in our group is 12-14k, im usually third at either 10-11k(Condi sb, so some bosses i cant break more than that), on the ones i can i get 12k usually. The lowest ive seen in the group was 6k from a dps class. As to pugs, i stay out of pugs simply to avoid the idiotic levels of toxicity ive seen in them, and usually they dont want Condi SB's in their raids.

Are you using shortbow/shortbow? If so, does The tank turn bosses away from The group? If you have Access to The logs, check boon and Buff uptimes on you and rest of The Squad. Like you should sit comfortable around 15k If you have flanking bonus, Max might+Fury and some quickness and alacrity.(and ofc banners and spirits). And ofc you could check your simple rotation to see how much it different from optimal.

Running just one shortbow at the raid leaders instructions(was running two, but comm decided it wasnt worth it,), as to the tank, there are some bosses where im told to stay on stack regardless of what way the boss is facing, even if it would only be short distance to walk to get the flank bonus, yay training raids?

Sounds to me like you need a new group.

Yes. Because thats
so
easy to find right? Its not, it took me a year to get into the groups i have now. Theres not many groups who are willing to take people who only have one class, so no. Im stuck with the two groups i have, both of them nearly the same when it comes to what they want.

Idk I think it's pretty easy. Just gotta get to know people and socialize. Trainingsruns are just a stepping stone to a real guild, and in addition to that I'd rather not raid at all than have an unpleasent experience.

Then again, I made my own guild because I was unhappy with what was presented to me.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

A general PSA on Dps meters:

People who do not use meters, tend to not realize how unoptimized or poor their performance/rotations really are (because they literally can't track or see their dps...). They see big numbers and dish out spells constantly, but may not realize that they are not playing optimally, or are even getting carried by someone who is. I ran into his extremely often in my MMO career, and had this problem myself back in the day before I grew a pair and just started using meters myself to see why I got kicked when I thought or felt I was doing so well.

I love games with built in meters (like BnS for example) because it FORCES the average player to become a BETTER player on average, because they can't choose to hide their own performance from themselves and others. Games without any sort of dps tracking usually have the biggest disparity between casual "scrub tier dps" players that THINK they're good, and the actual min/max hardcore base that do the math and track their dps.

If you are someone who do not use meters, just use one and see for yourself in a real dungeon scenario how you actually preform (not on training dummies). You may be surprised at how sloppy you truly play in a real scenario, on how missing one or 2 spells or slacking on a bust window drastically drops your DPS results. If you want to do the hardest content in any game, then you are have to realize you are constantly competing with the top base for your spot in the party, this is the simple reality in any multiplayer game. If you don't want to deal with the gripes/toxicity that naturally comes with the territory, I suggest you stick to doing more causal content, and there is nothing wrong with that. This type of playstyle environment simply isn't for everyone, and a lot of people who like MMOs don't realize this and blame every problem they face on "blind toxicity from elitists".

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The issue is, and always has been, that people with diametrically opposed play styles shouldnt play together. If you are a hardcore efficiency/goal oriented player you should not join a group intending a casual, bring whatever you feel like, instance run. If you are a casual, play whatever you feel like, player you should not join a group of hardcore players attempting an efficient instance run.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Ashen.2907 said:

@"gateless gate.8406" said:DPS meters should be banned, BUT Anet would also have to allow players to actually lead groups. This proto-communist grouping system whereby the creator of the group can be kicked by the people they invite is beyond weird, and one of the consequences of it is that players cannot make their own groups to solve toxicity/elitism issues.

These issues being brought up in the thread about people being toxic prior to DPS meters are valid -- but very easily solved by simply making your own group, which in most games means you can't be kicked (which therefore lets you play any build you want). That's impossible in GW2's system.

Note also that GW2's grouping system is one of the big reasons why this game has such strict meta requirements. The inability to truly lead groups means that people are socially encouraged to always play "safe" builds and to never rock the boat or speak out against absurdities. It's essentially mob rule, and mob rule has a chilling effect.
 Nobody as far as I know has gone this route yet, or offered this suggestion:  ban all third party add-ons, eliminate the kick function and vote to kick function, prevent people from leaving an instance other than shutting down the game(and then build in a 60 minute wait period before the executable will run again)...then make sure on the loading screen in BIG  BOLD LETTERS it states:  PLAYERS CAN PLAY WHAT EVER BUILD THEY WANT IN ANY TYPE OF CONTENT THIS GAME OFFERS!Extreme, maybe, but that is how this game is supposed to be played, play what ever build you want with what ever character you want in what ever content you want...if people don't like it, go play another game.

You are mistaken about your definition of how this game is supposed to be played.

That's not my definition, that's ArenaNet's own definition of this game...at least it was at release, and actually that's the whole mindset behind both games...play as you want.

Nope.

At no point has Anet ever said that one player has the right to command or own the actions of another.

Play the way you want does not mean what you imply. A group deciding to focus on efficiency is, by the way, playing how they want.
 Maybe I should put it this way, every individual player is allowed to play the way they want...whether or not others or the community will 

accept that is up to the other players or the community. I guess you'd have to completely eliminate the ability to select teammates and makeeverything random with no option of kicking, only quitting what ever content it is that you happen to have been put into with people thataren't playing as you(in the broad sense) would like, but I highly doubt you'd get many people to play such a game...or you wouldn't get "hard core"players to play it, it might appeal the the "casual" mindset(aka those that play mobile and FB games) because then you're justplaying the game for fun and only fun.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Hugheszie.6291 said:Any of you played WOW? Because this is one of the things that killed our community over there... And why we play GW2 now... I've just realised... We're ruining this too.

DAMNIT.

DPS meters were legal and available in WoW the moment raids were in game. The community continued to grow, and grow, and grow even with those DPS meters allegedly ruining the game and community all throughout Vanilla, Burning Crusade, and peaking at 12 Million in Wrath of the Lich King.

Its almost like WoW's struggles were because of issues completely unrelated to DPS meters and were things new to the game starting with Cataclysm when things actually started to decline.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Zaklex.6308 said:

@"gateless gate.8406" said:DPS meters should be banned, BUT Anet would also have to allow players to actually lead groups. This proto-communist grouping system whereby the creator of the group can be kicked by the people they invite is beyond weird, and one of the consequences of it is that players cannot make their own groups to solve toxicity/elitism issues.

These issues being brought up in the thread about people being toxic prior to DPS meters are valid -- but very easily solved by simply making your own group, which in most games means you can't be kicked (which therefore lets you play any build you want). That's impossible in GW2's system.

Note also that GW2's grouping system is one of the big reasons why this game has such strict meta requirements. The inability to truly lead groups means that people are socially encouraged to always play "safe" builds and to never rock the boat or speak out against absurdities. It's essentially mob rule, and mob rule has a chilling effect.
 Nobody as far as I know has gone this route yet, or offered this suggestion:  ban all third party add-ons, eliminate the kick function and vote to kick function, prevent people from leaving an instance other than shutting down the game(and then build in a 60 minute wait period before the executable will run again)...then make sure on the loading screen in BIG  BOLD LETTERS it states:  PLAYERS CAN PLAY WHAT EVER BUILD THEY WANT IN ANY TYPE OF CONTENT THIS GAME OFFERS!Extreme, maybe, but that is how this game is supposed to be played, play what ever build you want with what ever character you want in what ever content you want...if people don't like it, go play another game.

This is objectively untrue and you can go back and listen to and read interviews with former game director Collin Johansson about the intention and direction of the original dungeons. Dungeons and GW2 were always designed to be challenging affairs for hard core players, where you did care about your gear, your build, and group composition. They only reason the ended up being so easy is the developers heavily misunderstood the value of damage and the intricacies of their own combat system and how far players could take it.

What was always designed to be true about GW2 is that hard engame group content was always supposed to be one smaller piece of a large draw that catered to a variety of plays like more casual players with open world and story, serious PvPers with SPvP, siege zerg Open World PvPers and gankers with WvW and hardcore PvErs with dungeons.

It also promised to never have an endless gear treadmill and to lock the best gear behind super super difficult content. And to it's mostly stayed true to creating an MMORPG where there is something for everyone, including those who can only play a couple hours a week.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

To really hammer the point home on how easy it is to do bad DPS in this game, I decided to do a couple of tests. Also, I decided to stimulate the economy by buying some overpriced soup. All of these tests basically follow the snowcrows build, with a few exceptions:

1: I don't have the stat infusions. As rich as I am, I still don't have enough money to outfit 20 different builds with eighteen +9/+5 infusions.2: I still have Sigil of Air equipped instead of Sigil of Impact

Otherwise it is basically the same. Full ascended. Frost/Sun/Spotter from druid, 9 boons, Empower Allies/Strength/Discipline from warrior, large golem with all conditions. Food is Sweet and Spicy Butternut Squash Soup + Potent Superior Sharpening Stone unless otherwise stated. For all of these tests, I'm going to show how much damage is done just using the auto attacks, and sometimes the damage done from very, VERY simple skills and rotations.

The theory is this: The auto attack and really basic rotations form the baseline of player performance. Even the most helmet player can auto attack. But, it is important to know that, whenever anything goes wrong, your DPS automatically revers to the baseline. If enemies run out of the AoE, or if your skills get interrupted, or if the game lags, or if the game eats your inputs, or if you have to reposition to avoid immediate death, or whatever. The moment something goes wrong, your DPS revers back to the base level.

Classes and builds that have terrible baseline DPS are accident prone and difficult to play, since your overall DPS is averaged out through all of your skills. It's like your overall grade in school: if you get a bunch of A's, but then a few 0s, your grade can plummet incredibly fast. Now, if all classes had a good base performance, then concerns over DPS wouldn't be nearly as severe as they are now. Unfortunately, for the sake of vague notions like "flavor" a lot of weapons are currently built to be purposefully terrible and inferior. Most of our weapon skills are terrible, and all of our good DPS skills are limited to utilities and profession specific mechanics.

This won't be a comprehensive list. I don't own a warrior or a ranger, and also I don't have a viper set for my firebrand. If someone else is curious, they'd have to do it themselves.

Engineer:

ScrapperHammer Auto: 16.6kHammer Auto w/ Rifle Turret: 18.3kHolosmithSword Auto, 0 heat: 17.3kSword auto w/ sword 2, 0 heat: 17.7kBomb Auto: 17.5kBomb Auto w/ Fire Bomb: 17.9kGrenade Auto: 14.0kPhoton Forge auto (sword on cooldown): 22kRifle Auto: 12kTool Kit Auto: 13.4kFlamethrower Auto: 14.6kCondi (Red Lentil Sorbet + Master Tuning Crystal)Pistol Auto: 9.9kPistol Skills off cooldown: 15.3kGrenade Auto: 12.1kGrenade all skills: 15.6kFlamethrower Auto: 12.1kFlamethrower + Napalm: 14.0kBomb all DPS skills: 13.7k

Next up, Revenant. Build is

because Snowcrows isn't hosting power rev for some reason right now.

HeraldSword Auto (with 3 facets): 20.0k DPSSword auto (no upkeep): 18.6kSword auto (Shiro/Jalis with IO/VH): 26.6kStaff auto (3 facets): 17.8kHammer Auto (3 facets): 13.3kHammer Auto + Hammer 2: 17.2k DPSCondi Renegade (Red Lentil Sorbet + Toxic Focusing Crystal)Mace Auto: 16.8kAll mace + axe DPS skills: 22.2k (Note: would be lower on small hitboxes)Shortbow Auto: 12.7kShortbow all DPS skills: 23.0kMace auto + elite upkeep skills: 22.1k

Necromancer. To keep this more "sterile", I'm going to do a minion test alone, so I won't have to worry about minions when looking at all the weapons. If you want to know the combined damage, just add the two together.

ReaperMinion Damage: 1.17kGreatsword Auto: 17.9kGreatsword all DPS skills: 20.7kAxe Auto: 11.8kAxe DPS skills: 15.2kDagger Auto: 16.6kCamping Reaper's Shroud (Dagger out of Shroud): 22.3kShroud all DPS skills: 23.0kScourgeScepter Auto: 12.7kScepter/Torch all DPS skills: 17.0kStaff all skills: 6k

Mesmer

Mirage (Note: using old chaos/dueling build, I swear the build updated as I was writing this)Axe Auto, no clones: 10.8kAxe Auto, Clones: 21.0kScepter auto, Clones: 9.5kStaff auto, clones: 15.3kChronomancerSword Auto, Clones: 13.8kSword + Sword all DPS skills: 20.7kGreatsword Auto, Clones: 10.4kGreatsword all DPS skills: 14.6k

Elementalist (don't have a condi set)

WeaverSword Fire Auto: 17.7kSword Water Auto: 7.9kSword Air Auto: 17.8kSword Earth Auto: 13.5kDagger Fire Auto: 14.8kDagger Water Auto: 8.1kDagger Air Auto: 16.8kDagger Earth Auto: 12.1kScepter Fire Auto: 9.2kScepter Fire DPS skills: 13.8kScepter Water Auto: 8.9kScepter Water DPS skills: 11.3kScepter Air Auto: 9.6kScepter Air DPS skills: 12.2kScepter Earth Auto: 4.6kScepter Earth DPS Skills: 5.2kStaff Fire Auto: 11.1kStaff Fire + Lava Font: 16.3kStaff Water DPS skills: 5.6kStaff Air Auto: 7.9kStaff Earth Auto: 5.6kStaff Earth + Eruption Auto: 7.9kTempestDagger Air Auto + Air Overload (Fresh Air): 18.9k

Guardian:

Firebrand GrieverAxe Auto: 17.5kAxe all DPS skills:17.8kScepter auto + scepter 2: 15.3kDragonhunterGreatsword Auto: 18.2kGreatsword all DPS skills: 24kSword Auto: 17.0kSword all DPS skills 20.4kScepter DPS skills: 21.6kMace Auto: 13.5kMace all DPS: 16.0kHammer Auto: 19.2kHammer All DPS: 20.9kLongbow Auto: 12.8kLongbow all DPS: 18.0k

Thief

DaredevilStaff Auto: 25.2kStaff 2 Spam: 28.7kCondiDagger Auto: 14.1kDeath Blossom Spam:14.7kDeadeyePistol Auto: 15.8kPistol Unload spam: 22.4kShortbow Auto: 13.0kRifle Auto: 22.4kDagger Auto: 25.5kSword Auto: 25.9k

The unfortunate thing about all of these weapon sets and benchmarks is that condition builds suffer the most from disparate performance between weapons and utilities/profession mechanics. In all of the condi builds, less than half of the damage comes from auto attacks. Right now, Power Thief sits exactly where I would want most classes to sit: a solid 20k-25k DPS baseline, with 30k+ DPS with good rotations/skills. Of course, ranged weapons should sit 5k lower than the power than the melee weapons, to encourage people to melee for more damage. But, some of these sub 15k damage sets shouldn't exist IMO. I'd rather have less burst from utilities/profession skills and better weapon damage than the current system, because the current system is idiot-prone.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:To really hammer the point home on how easy it is to do bad DPS in this game, I decided to do a couple of tests. Also, I decided to stimulate the economy by buying some overpriced soup. All of these tests basically follow the snowcrows build, with a few exceptions:

1: I don't have the stat infusions. As rich as I am, I still don't have enough money to outfit 20 different builds with eighteen +9/+5 infusions.2: I still have Sigil of Air equipped instead of Sigil of Impact

Otherwise it is basically the same. Full ascended. Frost/Sun/Spotter from druid, 9 boons, Empower Allies/Strength/Discipline from warrior, large golem with all conditions. Food is Sweet and Spicy Butternut Squash Soup + Potent Superior Sharpening Stone unless otherwise stated. For all of these tests, I'm going to show how much damage is done just using the auto attacks, and sometimes the damage done from very, VERY simple skills and rotations.

The theory is this: The auto attack and really basic rotations form the baseline of player performance. Even the most helmet player can auto attack. But, it is important to know that, whenever anything goes wrong, your DPS automatically revers to the baseline. If enemies run out of the AoE, or if your skills get interrupted, or if the game lags, or if the game eats your inputs, or if you have to reposition to avoid immediate death, or whatever. The moment something goes wrong, your DPS revers back to the base level.

Classes and builds that have terrible baseline DPS are accident prone and difficult to play, since your overall DPS is averaged out through all of your skills. It's like your overall grade in school: if you get a bunch of A's, but then a few 0s, your grade can plummet incredibly fast. Now, if all classes had a good base performance, then concerns over DPS wouldn't be nearly as severe as they are now. Unfortunately, for the sake of vague notions like "flavor" a lot of weapons are currently built to be purposefully terrible and inferior. Most of our weapon skills are terrible, and all of our good DPS skills are limited to utilities and profession specific mechanics.

This won't be a comprehensive list. I don't own a warrior or a ranger, and also I don't have a viper set for my firebrand. If someone else is curious, they'd have to do it themselves.

Engineer:

ScrapperHammer Auto: 16.6kHammer Auto w/ Rifle Turret: 18.3kHolosmithSword Auto, 0 heat: 17.3kSword auto w/ sword 2, 0 heat: 17.7kBomb Auto: 17.5kBomb Auto w/ Fire Bomb: 17.9kGrenade Auto: 14.0kPhoton Forge auto (sword on cooldown): 22kRifle Auto: 12kTool Kit Auto: 13.4kFlamethrower Auto: 14.6kCondi (Red Lentil Sorbet + Master Tuning Crystal)Pistol Auto: 9.9kPistol Skills off cooldown: 15.3kGrenade Auto: 12.1kGrenade all skills: 15.6kFlamethrower Auto: 12.1kFlamethrower + Napalm: 14.0kBomb all DPS skills: 13.7k

Next up, Revenant. Build is

because Snowcrows isn't hosting power rev for some reason right now.

HeraldSword Auto (with 3 facets): 20.0k DPSSword auto (no upkeep): 18.6kSword auto (Shiro/Jalis with IO/VH): 26.6kStaff auto (3 facets): 17.8kHammer Auto (3 facets): 13.3kHammer Auto + Hammer 2: 17.2k DPSCondi Renegade (Red Lentil Sorbet + Toxic Focusing Crystal)Mace Auto: 16.8kAll mace + axe DPS skills: 22.2k (Note: would be lower on small hitboxes)Shortbow Auto: 12.7kShortbow all DPS skills: 23.0kMace auto + elite upkeep skills: 22.1k

Necromancer. To keep this more "sterile", I'm going to do a minion test alone, so I won't have to worry about minions when looking at all the weapons. If you want to know the combined damage, just add the two together.

ReaperMinion Damage: 1.17kGreatsword Auto: 17.9kGreatsword all DPS skills: 20.7kAxe Auto: 11.8kAxe DPS skills: 15.2kDagger Auto: 16.6kCamping Reaper's Shroud (Dagger out of Shroud): 22.3kShroud all DPS skills: 23.0kScourgeScepter Auto: 12.7kScepter/Torch all DPS skills: 17.0kStaff all skills: 6k

Mesmer

Mirage (Note: using old chaos/dueling build, I swear the build updated as I was writing this)Axe Auto, no clones: 10.8kAxe Auto, Clones: 21.0kScepter auto, Clones: 9.5kStaff auto, clones: 15.3kChronomancerSword Auto, Clones: 13.8kSword + Sword all DPS skills: 20.7kGreatsword Auto, Clones: 10.4kGreatsword all DPS skills: 14.6k

Elementalist (don't have a condi set)

WeaverSword Fire Auto: 17.7kSword Water Auto: 7.9kSword Air Auto: 17.8kSword Earth Auto: 13.5kDagger Fire Auto: 14.8kDagger Water Auto: 8.1kDagger Air Auto: 16.8kDagger Earth Auto: 12.1kScepter Fire Auto: 9.2kScepter Fire DPS skills: 13.8kScepter Water Auto: 8.9kScepter Water DPS skills: 11.3kScepter Air Auto: 9.6kScepter Air DPS skills: 12.2kScepter Earth Auto: 4.6kScepter Earth DPS Skills: 5.2kStaff Fire Auto: 11.1kStaff Fire + Lava Font: 16.3kStaff Water DPS skills: 5.6kStaff Air Auto: 7.9kStaff Earth Auto: 5.6kStaff Earth + Eruption Auto: 7.9kTempestDagger Air Auto + Air Overload (Fresh Air): 18.9k

Guardian:

Firebrand GrieverAxe Auto: 17.5kAxe all DPS skills:17.8kScepter auto + scepter 2: 15.3kDragonhunterGreatsword Auto: 18.2kGreatsword all DPS skills: 24kSword Auto: 17.0kSword all DPS skills 20.4kScepter DPS skills: 21.6kMace Auto: 13.5kMace all DPS: 16.0kHammer Auto: 19.2kHammer All DPS: 20.9kLongbow Auto: 12.8kLongbow all DPS: 18.0k

Thief

DaredevilStaff Auto: 25.2kStaff 2 Spam: 28.7kCondiDagger Auto: 14.1kDeath Blossom Spam:14.7kDeadeyePistol Auto: 15.8kPistol Unload spam: 22.4kShortbow Auto: 13.0kRifle Auto: 22.4kDagger Auto: 25.5kSword Auto: 25.9k

The unfortunate thing about all of these weapon sets and benchmarks is that condition builds suffer the most from disparate performance between weapons and utilities/profession mechanics. In all of the condi builds, less than half of the damage comes from auto attacks. Right now, Power Thief sits exactly where I would want most classes to sit: a solid 20k-25k DPS baseline, with 30k+ DPS with good rotations/skills. Of course, ranged weapons should sit 5k lower than the power than the melee weapons, to encourage people to melee for more damage. But, some of these sub 15k damage sets shouldn't exist IMO. I'd rather have less burst from utilities/profession skills and better weapon damage than the current system, because the current system is idiot-prone.

I get where you're going with this post but unfortunately in the overall game, people dont even have zerker gear to reach these baselines. Not only that, but I've seen players who struggle with targeting and end up shooting their longbow arrows into the ground because they don't have anything targeted. I'd be curious to see what these numbers are using soldiers gear with no buffs look like as that would be the true dps floor.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Shikaru.7618 said:

I get where you're going with this post but unfortunately in the overall game, people dont even have zerker gear to reach these baselines. Not only that, but I've seen players who struggle with targeting and end up shooting their longbow arrows into the ground because they don't have anything targeted. I'd be curious to see what these numbers are using soldiers gear with no buffs look like as that would be the true dps floor.

We already know the benchmark for the infinitely incompetent. It's zero.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I can see how arcdps has its value, but honestly, i don't think its needed anymore, raid bosses go down as long as you understand the mechs and wear the correct stats.you dont even need ascended armor. so it seems to me its only there to spy on each others dps and provide a little toxicity.

biggest problem however is how it keeps crashing on people who didn't update it. I'm personally sick of wasting time in raids because of someone crashing 3 times in a row.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@"Clyan.1593" said:I can see how arcdps has its value, but honestly, i don't think its needed anymore, raid bosses go down as long as you understand the mechs and wear the correct stats.you dont even need ascended armor. so it seems to me its only there to spy on each others dps and provide a little toxicity.

biggest problem however is how it keeps crashing on people who didn't update it. I'm personally sick of wasting time in raids because of someone crashing 3 times in a row.

Nah, the "boss is dead" feedback the game provides is too little for me. I like to compare with others. As said before, my reward are high % raidar logs. If you would take that away, I'd rather not play. Is it toxic if someone does significantly less dps then others and you point that out, I wouldn't say that. Wearing the right stats Is already to hard for some people in raids aswell. And what happens when there is a new wing released? Or for new players that do not have all the bosses on farm status?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:The theory is this: The auto attack and really basic rotations form the baseline of player performance. Even the most helmet player can auto attack. But, it is important to know that, whenever anything goes wrong, your DPS automatically revers to the baseline. If enemies run out of the AoE, or if your skills get interrupted, or if the game lags, or if the game eats your inputs, or if you have to reposition to avoid immediate death, or whatever. The moment something goes wrong, your DPS revers back to the base level.

This doesn't exactly apply to the topic of dps meters, because in order to be kicked from the group (as is the topic) you must do less, close or equal damage to a support spec. All dps specs do more damage than support specs even when only auto-attacking. Which is why a player that is doing such low dps MUST be doing something incredibly wrong. Which is why they are kicked in the first place. A dps build doesn't do such low dps by missing a rotation or two, they reach it by being afk half the fight, or by using Nomads gear. Which, again, is why they are kicked.

For reference, I got this:https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/9d86co/sc_updated_benchmarks_2808_balance_patch/It's older but I can't see on the snowcrows website the dps of Druid and Chrono.

The dps of a support build is at maximum 15k on the golem, which can be reached auto-attacking in lots of your tests, while it is more than easily reached if you press a couple more easily available buttons. Why not use skills 2 and 3 on weapons that it helps with dps, like Scourge Scepter? Or Weaver Sword? Are players so incompetent that they can't press 123 on their keyboards? Also, not using profession mechanics is also questionable when they provide a great increase in dps. A "proper" baseline, is every skills available to you to be off cooldown (unless it's not a damage skill), and not counting skills on second weapon set and extra skills like conjures and kits. Any player has the ability to press the rest of the buttons without the need to remember cooldowns (which is the problem with rotations) and if they do press their buttons, they can outdps the support specs just fine and not get kicked from any group.

I get your point about baseline damage but it has little to do with kicks due to dps meters.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:The theory is this: The auto attack and really basic rotations form the baseline of player performance. Even the most helmet player can auto attack. But, it is important to know that, whenever anything goes wrong, your DPS automatically revers to the baseline. If enemies run out of the AoE, or if your skills get interrupted, or if the game lags, or if the game eats your inputs, or if you have to reposition to avoid immediate death, or whatever. The moment something goes wrong, your DPS revers back to the base level.

This doesn't exactly apply to the topic of dps meters, because in order to be kicked from the group (as is the topic) you must do less, close or equal damage to a support spec. All dps specs do more damage than support specs even when only auto-attacking. Which is why a player that is doing such low dps MUST be doing something incredibly wrong. Which is why they are kicked in the first place. A dps build doesn't do such low dps by missing a rotation or two, they reach it by being afk half the fight, or by using Nomads gear. Which, again, is why they are kicked.

Nothing you've said here is true.

1: The topic of DPS meters is transitively the topic of why people do low DPS. It is relevant. In fact, I'd argue it is the most important thing, because finding a practical way to resolve low player DPS is a far better solution than just shouting all the bads down for all the abuse you give them.2: People will get kicked even when they're still doing more damage than the support toons. This benchmark for kicking that you've pulled out of nowhere is far from universal.3: Look at the numbers. 48 out of the 95 rotations I tested have sub-16k numbers. By your own standard, half of the baseline DPS setups are at or below the failure rate. That number climbs depending on how liberal your use of the word "close" is.4: There are several rotations that are incredibly punishing, where missing a single skill or miss-timing an attack can completely ruin your performance. Condi Scourge, Condi Renegade, Staff Weaver, Scepter Guardian, Condi Engineer, DPS and support Chronomancer,, and hell even Firebrand are all like this. That is just the professions I have first hand experience with. Who knows what trials and tribulations warriors and rangers all face.5: People don't bring RNG builds into places like high end fractals. You don't just end up with a full ascended bad build. There are countless stories of people getting kicked even when using a 1:1 copy of a meta build, including my own.6: The point of these tests is that things go wrong. Skills get interrupted directly or indirectly, or the skills miss, or the DPS window hits an awkward time, or the enemy moves, or there's lag, or an input gets eaten, or someoen's finger's fumble, or something IRL distracts, or RNG gets in the way. Whenever all of that stuff happens, we revert to the baseline, so if the baseline is low then the default performance of a player is set to terrible.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:In fact, I'd argue it is the most important thing, because finding a practical way to resolve low player DPS is a far better solution than just shouting all the bads down for all the abuse you give them.

Take a look:https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/781881/#Comment_781881The low dps "problem" can be solved without dumbing down the rotation and the gameplay.

2: People will get kicked even when they're still doing more damage than the support toons.How much higher than support? 1k? 2k? To be honest even reading threads about dps meters nobody complained that they got kicked when they did "just 2k dps lower than the top".

3: Look at the numbers. 48 out of the 95 rotations I tested have sub-16k numbers. By your own standard, half of the baseline DPS setups are at or below the failure rate. That number climbs depending on how liberal your use of the word "close" is.

Because the "rotations" you used aren't rotations. If you used actual rotations (usage of skills instead of auto-attacking alone) your numbers wouldn't be so low.

4: There are several rotations that are incredibly punishing, where missing a single skill or miss-timing an attack can completely ruin your performance. Condi Scourge, Condi Renegade, Staff Weaver, Scepter Guardian, Condi Engineer, DPS and support Chronomancer,, and hell even Firebrand are all like this. That is just the professions I have first hand experience with. Who knows what trials and tribulations warriors and rangers all face.

Missing a single skill or miss-timing an attack won't get you kicked as the dps loss isn't as noticeable.

5: People don't bring RNG builds into places like high end fractals. You don't just end up with a full ascended bad build. There are countless stories of people getting kicked even when using a 1:1 copy of a meta build, including my own.

1:1 copy of a meta build doesn't make you proficient in playing said build.

6: The point of these tests is that things go wrong. Skills get interrupted directly or indirectly, or the skills miss, or the DPS window hits an awkward time, or the enemy moves, or there's lag, or an input gets eaten, or someoen's finger's fumble, or something IRL distracts, or RNG gets in the way. Whenever all of that stuff happens, we revert to the baseline, so if the baseline is low then the default performance of a player is set to terrible.

Good. This kind of baseline is expected to be terrible because you aren't using any of your available options. And those "things that go wrong" you can press 2 or 3 instead of 1 when things go wrong. There is no need to revert to your auto-attack in ANY situation imaginable.

Edit: Also, keep in mind that the 15k is from top raiding players playing the build and only focusing on dps. In ACTUAL gameplay the Druid and support Chronomancer will do much less damage as they have a completely different objective/role in the fights. Which means, in most situations just auto-attacking as a dps build, will give you more dps than those supports. Which also means, if someone doesn't do more (WAY more) it means they are doing something fundamentally wrong.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Nobody mention about a Support spec not actually doing enough supporting and focusing on damage instead :D. That's a joke, but actually might be valid in itself. If you kick a DPS because they are lower than someone in the party doing support, when the support's DPS is arbitrarily high, then nothing says the support isn't focusing on what his role is, no ?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Naxos.2503 said:Nobody mention about a Support spec not actually doing enough supporting and focusing on damage instead :D. That's a joke, but actually might be valid in itself. If you kick a DPS because they are lower than someone in the party doing support, when the support's DPS is arbitrarily high, then nothing says the support isn't focusing on what his role is, no ?

True, but given that boon up-time is a thing, this is easy checked.

Most people will complain about a dps being far behind other dps which is the first thing which will get noticed(and again, if you are 2-5k below the top dps no one will care. Most people who get kicked are simply terrible) .

Supports doing a poor job will be noticed the moment the entire raid performs poorly. Trust me, support players get called out often enough, especially healers who have to cover for people's insanely bad positioning some times.

It's often just that inexperienced players first focus on pure damage numbers.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Did T4 yesterday as a harrier druid.One Dragon Hunter in the party was doing 2-3K dps constantly, most times being actually below my dps. Around 22K APOne Necro variant (forgot exact which spec) was doing the same, but with some spikes to 6K dps. Over 10K APOne Dragon Hunter had a constant ~15K+ dps, effectively caring the whole party's dps.When I asked if any of them were running a healing build they laughed like i was telling a good joke. Something like: Can't you see I am a Dragon Hunter? We are not healers!"The T4 run took close to 1 hour & 30 minutes. Don't ask me how I just did not leave the party cause I do not know the answer.I guess they were for banning ArcDPS also/totally against it/I play how I want even tho it is your lost time also.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@maddoctor.2738 said:Take a look:https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/781881/#Comment_781881The low dps "problem" can be solved without dumbing down the rotation and the gameplay.

Letting people see their cooldowns isn't going to solve the problem. Mistakes are still punishing, and overly complicated rotations still make mistakes way too easy.

@maddoctor.2738 said:How much higher than support? 1k? 2k? To be honest even reading threads about dps meters nobody complained that they got kicked when they did "just 2k dps lower than the top".

Well, that's up to the whims of the kicker, now isn't it?

@maddoctor.2738 said:Because the "rotations" you used aren't rotations. If you used actual rotations (usage of skills instead of auto-attacking alone) your numbers wouldn't be so low.

At least it is good to know that you have not been paying attention.

@maddoctor.2738 said:Missing a single skill or miss-timing an attack won't get you kicked as the dps loss isn't as noticeable.

It does and it is.

@maddoctor.2738 said:1:1 copy of a meta build doesn't make you proficient in playing said build.

Nice red herring. Pay attention now.

@maddoctor.2738 said:Good. This kind of baseline is expected to be terrible because you aren't using any of your available options. And those "things that go wrong" you can press 2 or 3 instead of 1 when things go wrong. There is no need to revert to your auto-attack in ANY situation imaginable.

Considering that the convoluted rotations make doing well at this game needlessly complicated and punishing, and that this disparity between performances is breeding mass hostility, paranoia, and discontent among the player base at large, I would say that all this is not "good" at all. It's quite bad, actually. There are a lot of other games where it is far easier to have good performance while doing far less. If we raise the baseline performance for a lot of these classes, everybody wins. All of the elitists get to feel smug because the top DPS rotations are still a Rube Goldberg mess, and the casual players get to feel better because they do better and face less hostility.

@maddoctor.2738 said:Edit: Also, keep in mind that the 15k is from top raiding players playing the build and only focusing on dps. In ACTUAL gameplay the Druid and support Chronomancer will do much less damage as they have a completely different objective/role in the fights. Which means, in most situations just auto-attacking as a dps build, will give you more dps than those supports. Which also means, if someone doesn't do more (WAY more) it means they are doing something fundamentally wrong.

All ships rise and fall with the tide, so that is all irrelevant.

Why are you here? Seriously. You aren't paying attention. You're just saying whatever comes to mind, regardless of context, just to be defiant and contrarian. What good comes from you being here?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:Letting people see their cooldowns isn't going to solve the problem.It's gonna reduce the effect rotations have on your dps. It won't solve the problem completely unless the players themselves try to get better. All without making all builds work like Daredevil/Deadeye. Funny thing is, even Daredevils/Deadeyes do low dps and get kicked, even though their "rotation" is brain dead.

Considering that the convoluted rotations make doing well at this game needlessly complicated and punishing, and that this disparity between performances is breeding mass hostility, paranoia, and discontent among the player base at large, I would say that all this is not "good" at all.

I suggest you take account on how many daredevils and deadeyes get kicked. Or their rotation is also punishing and complicated?

All ships rise and fall with the tide, so that is all irrelevant.

Well I could retype it in a simpler way for you to understand.Your so called rotations are doing ~15k dps on average. A well played support role that focuses exclusively on dps on a stationary golem does 15k. It stands to reason that in actual combat that same support would deal far less damage. Meaning even your silly rotations can outdps a support, meaning they shouldn't be kicked. But they are, because those getting kicked aren't even following your own rotations.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Naxos.2503 said:Nobody mention about a Support spec not actually doing enough supporting and focusing on damage instead :D. That's a joke, but actually might be valid in itself. If you kick a DPS because they are lower than someone in the party doing support, when the support's DPS is arbitrarily high, then nothing says the support isn't focusing on what his role is, no ?

They will complain if a player who plays as dps role do less dps than support

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In my experience, being clear about your expectations is the key to avoiding these issues. If you don't use a DPS meter, you should probably not assume that you're a strong performer (Seriously, how could you know?) and you should avoid joining groups with strict requirements. By the same token, if you're forming your own group you can save yourself a lot of headaches by indicating that you aren't looking for speed demons and control freaks. Group with the type of people who play the way you play and you'll avoid most of these issues. That goes for everyone, whether they use a DPS meter or not.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...