People who do not use meters, tend to not realize how unoptimized or poor their performance/rotations really are (because they literally can't track or see their dps...). They see big numbers and dish out spells constantly, but may not realize that they are not playing optimally, or are even getting carried by someone who is. I ran into his extremely often in my MMO career, and had this problem myself back in the day before I grew a pair and just started using meters myself to see why I got kicked when I thought or felt I was doing so well.
I love games with built in meters (like BnS for example) because it FORCES the average player to become a BETTER player on average, because they can't choose to hide their own performance from themselves and others. Games without any sort of dps tracking usually have the biggest disparity between casual "scrub tier dps" players that THINK they're good, and the actual min/max hardcore base that do the math and track their dps.
If you are someone who do not use meters, just use one and see for yourself in a real dungeon scenario how you actually preform (not on training dummies). You may be surprised at how sloppy you truly play in a real scenario, on how missing one or 2 spells or slacking on a bust window drastically drops your DPS results. If you want to do the hardest content in any game, then you are have to realize you are constantly competing with the top base for your spot in the party, this is the simple reality in any multiplayer game. If you don't want to deal with the gripes/toxicity that naturally comes with the territory, I suggest you stick to doing more causal content, and there is nothing wrong with that. This type of playstyle environment simply isn't for everyone, and a lot of people who like MMOs don't realize this and blame every problem they face on "blind toxicity from elitists".
The issue is, and always has been, that people with diametrically opposed play styles shouldnt play together. If you are a hardcore efficiency/goal oriented player you should not join a group intending a casual, bring whatever you feel like, instance run. If you are a casual, play whatever you feel like, player you should not join a group of hardcore players attempting an efficient instance run.
@gateless gate.8406 said:
DPS meters should be banned, BUT Anet would also have to allow players to actually lead groups. This proto-communist grouping system whereby the creator of the group can be kicked by the people they invite is beyond weird, and one of the consequences of it is that players cannot make their own groups to solve toxicity/elitism issues.
These issues being brought up in the thread about people being toxic prior to DPS meters are valid -- but very easily solved by simply making your own group, which in most games means you can't be kicked (which therefore lets you play any build you want). That's impossible in GW2's system.
Note also that GW2's grouping system is one of the big reasons why this game has such strict meta requirements. The inability to truly lead groups means that people are socially encouraged to always play "safe" builds and to never rock the boat or speak out against absurdities. It's essentially mob rule, and mob rule has a chilling effect.
Nobody as far as I know has gone this route yet, or offered this suggestion: ban all third party add-ons, eliminate the kick function and vote to kick function, prevent people from leaving an instance other than shutting down the game(and then build in a 60 minute wait period before the executable will run again)...then make sure on the loading screen in BIG BOLD LETTERS it states: PLAYERS CAN PLAY WHAT EVER BUILD THEY WANT IN ANY TYPE OF CONTENT THIS GAME OFFERS!
Extreme, maybe, but that is how this game is supposed to be played, play what ever build you want with what ever character you want in what ever content you want...if people don't like it, go play another game.
You are mistaken about your definition of how this game is supposed to be played.
That's not my definition, that's ArenaNet's own definition of this game...at least it was at release, and actually that's the whole mindset behind both games...play as you want.
Nope.
At no point has Anet ever said that one player has the right to command or own the actions of another.
Play the way you want does not mean what you imply. A group deciding to focus on efficiency is, by the way, playing how they want.
Maybe I should put it this way, every individual player is allowed to play the way they want...whether or not others or the community will
accept that is up to the other players or the community. I guess you'd have to completely eliminate the ability to select teammates and make
everything random with no option of kicking, only quitting what ever content it is that you happen to have been put into with people that
aren't playing as you(in the broad sense) would like, but I highly doubt you'd get many people to play such a game...or you wouldn't get "hard core"
players to play it, it might appeal the the "casual" mindset(aka those that play mobile and FB games) because then you're just
playing the game for fun and only fun.
Yes...no...maybe...what do you want, can't you see I'm busy saving the world...AGAIN!
@Hugheszie.6291 said:
Any of you played WOW? Because this is one of the things that killed our community over there... And why we play GW2 now... I've just realised... We're ruining this too.
DAMNIT.
DPS meters were legal and available in WoW the moment raids were in game. The community continued to grow, and grow, and grow even with those DPS meters allegedly ruining the game and community all throughout Vanilla, Burning Crusade, and peaking at 12 Million in Wrath of the Lich King.
Its almost like WoW's struggles were because of issues completely unrelated to DPS meters and were things new to the game starting with Cataclysm when things actually started to decline.
@gateless gate.8406 said:
DPS meters should be banned, BUT Anet would also have to allow players to actually lead groups. This proto-communist grouping system whereby the creator of the group can be kicked by the people they invite is beyond weird, and one of the consequences of it is that players cannot make their own groups to solve toxicity/elitism issues.
These issues being brought up in the thread about people being toxic prior to DPS meters are valid -- but very easily solved by simply making your own group, which in most games means you can't be kicked (which therefore lets you play any build you want). That's impossible in GW2's system.
Note also that GW2's grouping system is one of the big reasons why this game has such strict meta requirements. The inability to truly lead groups means that people are socially encouraged to always play "safe" builds and to never rock the boat or speak out against absurdities. It's essentially mob rule, and mob rule has a chilling effect.
Nobody as far as I know has gone this route yet, or offered this suggestion: ban all third party add-ons, eliminate the kick function and vote to kick function, prevent people from leaving an instance other than shutting down the game(and then build in a 60 minute wait period before the executable will run again)...then make sure on the loading screen in BIG BOLD LETTERS it states: PLAYERS CAN PLAY WHAT EVER BUILD THEY WANT IN ANY TYPE OF CONTENT THIS GAME OFFERS!
Extreme, maybe, but that is how this game is supposed to be played, play what ever build you want with what ever character you want in what ever content you want...if people don't like it, go play another game.
This is objectively untrue and you can go back and listen to and read interviews with former game director Collin Johansson about the intention and direction of the original dungeons. Dungeons and GW2 were always designed to be challenging affairs for hard core players, where you did care about your gear, your build, and group composition. They only reason the ended up being so easy is the developers heavily misunderstood the value of damage and the intricacies of their own combat system and how far players could take it.
What was always designed to be true about GW2 is that hard engame group content was always supposed to be one smaller piece of a large draw that catered to a variety of plays like more casual players with open world and story, serious PvPers with SPvP, siege zerg Open World PvPers and gankers with WvW and hardcore PvErs with dungeons.
It also promised to never have an endless gear treadmill and to lock the best gear behind super super difficult content. And to it's mostly stayed true to creating an MMORPG where there is something for everyone, including those who can only play a couple hours a week.
To really hammer the point home on how easy it is to do bad DPS in this game, I decided to do a couple of tests. Also, I decided to stimulate the economy by buying some overpriced soup. All of these tests basically follow the snowcrows build, with a few exceptions:
1: I don't have the stat infusions. As rich as I am, I still don't have enough money to outfit 20 different builds with eighteen +9/+5 infusions.
2: I still have Sigil of Air equipped instead of Sigil of Impact
Otherwise it is basically the same. Full ascended. Frost/Sun/Spotter from druid, 9 boons, Empower Allies/Strength/Discipline from warrior, large golem with all conditions. Food is Sweet and Spicy Butternut Squash Soup + Potent Superior Sharpening Stone unless otherwise stated. For all of these tests, I'm going to show how much damage is done just using the auto attacks, and sometimes the damage done from very, VERY simple skills and rotations.
The theory is this: The auto attack and really basic rotations form the baseline of player performance. Even the most helmet player can auto attack. But, it is important to know that, whenever anything goes wrong, your DPS automatically revers to the baseline. If enemies run out of the AoE, or if your skills get interrupted, or if the game lags, or if the game eats your inputs, or if you have to reposition to avoid immediate death, or whatever. The moment something goes wrong, your DPS revers back to the base level.
Classes and builds that have terrible baseline DPS are accident prone and difficult to play, since your overall DPS is averaged out through all of your skills. It's like your overall grade in school: if you get a bunch of A's, but then a few 0s, your grade can plummet incredibly fast. Now, if all classes had a good base performance, then concerns over DPS wouldn't be nearly as severe as they are now. Unfortunately, for the sake of vague notions like "flavor" a lot of weapons are currently built to be purposefully terrible and inferior. Most of our weapon skills are terrible, and all of our good DPS skills are limited to utilities and profession specific mechanics.
This won't be a comprehensive list. I don't own a warrior or a ranger, and also I don't have a viper set for my firebrand. If someone else is curious, they'd have to do it themselves.
Engineer:
Scrapper
Hammer Auto: 16.6k
Hammer Auto w/ Rifle Turret: 18.3k Holosmith
Sword Auto, 0 heat: 17.3k
Sword auto w/ sword 2, 0 heat: 17.7k
Bomb Auto: 17.5k
Bomb Auto w/ Fire Bomb: 17.9k
Grenade Auto: 14.0k
Photon Forge auto (sword on cooldown): 22k
Rifle Auto: 12k
Tool Kit Auto: 13.4k
Flamethrower Auto: 14.6k Condi (Red Lentil Sorbet + Master Tuning Crystal)
Pistol Auto: 9.9k
Pistol Skills off cooldown: 15.3k
Grenade Auto: 12.1k
Grenade all skills: 15.6k
Flamethrower Auto: 12.1k
Flamethrower + Napalm: 14.0k
Bomb all DPS skills: 13.7k
Next up, Revenant. Build is here, because Snowcrows isn't hosting power rev for some reason right now.
Herald
Sword Auto (with 3 facets): 20.0k DPS
Sword auto (no upkeep): 18.6k
Sword auto (Shiro/Jalis with IO/VH): 26.6k
Staff auto (3 facets): 17.8k
Hammer Auto (3 facets): 13.3k
Hammer Auto + Hammer 2: 17.2k DPS Condi Renegade (Red Lentil Sorbet + Toxic Focusing Crystal)
Mace Auto: 16.8k
All mace + axe DPS skills: 22.2k (Note: would be lower on small hitboxes)
Shortbow Auto: 12.7k
Shortbow all DPS skills: 23.0k
Mace auto + elite upkeep skills: 22.1k
Necromancer. To keep this more "sterile", I'm going to do a minion test alone, so I won't have to worry about minions when looking at all the weapons. If you want to know the combined damage, just add the two together.
Reaper
Minion Damage: 1.17k
Greatsword Auto: 17.9k
Greatsword all DPS skills: 20.7k
Axe Auto: 11.8k
Axe DPS skills: 15.2k
Dagger Auto: 16.6k
Camping Reaper's Shroud (Dagger out of Shroud): 22.3k
Shroud all DPS skills: 23.0k Scourge
Scepter Auto: 12.7k
Scepter/Torch all DPS skills: 17.0k
Staff all skills: 6k
Mesmer
Mirage (Note: using old chaos/dueling build, I swear the build updated as I was writing this)
Axe Auto, no clones: 10.8k
Axe Auto, Clones: 21.0k
Scepter auto, Clones: 9.5k
Staff auto, clones: 15.3k Chronomancer
Sword Auto, Clones: 13.8k
Sword + Sword all DPS skills: 20.7k
Greatsword Auto, Clones: 10.4k
Greatsword all DPS skills: 14.6k
Elementalist (don't have a condi set)
Weaver
Sword Fire Auto: 17.7k
Sword Water Auto: 7.9k
Sword Air Auto: 17.8k
Sword Earth Auto: 13.5k
Dagger Fire Auto: 14.8k
Dagger Water Auto: 8.1k
Dagger Air Auto: 16.8k
Dagger Earth Auto: 12.1k
Scepter Fire Auto: 9.2k
Scepter Fire DPS skills: 13.8k
Scepter Water Auto: 8.9k
Scepter Water DPS skills: 11.3k
Scepter Air Auto: 9.6k
Scepter Air DPS skills: 12.2k
Scepter Earth Auto: 4.6k
Scepter Earth DPS Skills: 5.2k
Staff Fire Auto: 11.1k
Staff Fire + Lava Font: 16.3k
Staff Water DPS skills: 5.6k
Staff Air Auto: 7.9k
Staff Earth Auto: 5.6k
Staff Earth + Eruption Auto: 7.9k Tempest
Dagger Air Auto + Air Overload (Fresh Air): 18.9k
Guardian:
Firebrand Griever
Axe Auto: 17.5k
Axe all DPS skills:17.8k
Scepter auto + scepter 2: 15.3k Dragonhunter
Greatsword Auto: 18.2k
Greatsword all DPS skills: 24k
Sword Auto: 17.0k
Sword all DPS skills 20.4k
Scepter DPS skills: 21.6k
Mace Auto: 13.5k
Mace all DPS: 16.0k
Hammer Auto: 19.2k
Hammer All DPS: 20.9k
Longbow Auto: 12.8k
Longbow all DPS: 18.0k
The unfortunate thing about all of these weapon sets and benchmarks is that condition builds suffer the most from disparate performance between weapons and utilities/profession mechanics. In all of the condi builds, less than half of the damage comes from auto attacks. Right now, Power Thief sits exactly where I would want most classes to sit: a solid 20k-25k DPS baseline, with 30k+ DPS with good rotations/skills. Of course, ranged weapons should sit 5k lower than the power than the melee weapons, to encourage people to melee for more damage. But, some of these sub 15k damage sets shouldn't exist IMO. I'd rather have less burst from utilities/profession skills and better weapon damage than the current system, because the current system is idiot-prone.
"Self awareness is knowing when you're sitting at the throne of ignorance." --Leo G.
@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:
To really hammer the point home on how easy it is to do bad DPS in this game, I decided to do a couple of tests. Also, I decided to stimulate the economy by buying some overpriced soup. All of these tests basically follow the snowcrows build, with a few exceptions:
1: I don't have the stat infusions. As rich as I am, I still don't have enough money to outfit 20 different builds with eighteen +9/+5 infusions.
2: I still have Sigil of Air equipped instead of Sigil of Impact
Otherwise it is basically the same. Full ascended. Frost/Sun/Spotter from druid, 9 boons, Empower Allies/Strength/Discipline from warrior, large golem with all conditions. Food is Sweet and Spicy Butternut Squash Soup + Potent Superior Sharpening Stone unless otherwise stated. For all of these tests, I'm going to show how much damage is done just using the auto attacks, and sometimes the damage done from very, VERY simple skills and rotations.
The theory is this: The auto attack and really basic rotations form the baseline of player performance. Even the most helmet player can auto attack. But, it is important to know that, whenever anything goes wrong, your DPS automatically revers to the baseline. If enemies run out of the AoE, or if your skills get interrupted, or if the game lags, or if the game eats your inputs, or if you have to reposition to avoid immediate death, or whatever. The moment something goes wrong, your DPS revers back to the base level.
Classes and builds that have terrible baseline DPS are accident prone and difficult to play, since your overall DPS is averaged out through all of your skills. It's like your overall grade in school: if you get a bunch of A's, but then a few 0s, your grade can plummet incredibly fast. Now, if all classes had a good base performance, then concerns over DPS wouldn't be nearly as severe as they are now. Unfortunately, for the sake of vague notions like "flavor" a lot of weapons are currently built to be purposefully terrible and inferior. Most of our weapon skills are terrible, and all of our good DPS skills are limited to utilities and profession specific mechanics.
This won't be a comprehensive list. I don't own a warrior or a ranger, and also I don't have a viper set for my firebrand. If someone else is curious, they'd have to do it themselves.
Engineer:
Scrapper
Hammer Auto: 16.6k
Hammer Auto w/ Rifle Turret: 18.3k Holosmith
Sword Auto, 0 heat: 17.3k
Sword auto w/ sword 2, 0 heat: 17.7k
Bomb Auto: 17.5k
Bomb Auto w/ Fire Bomb: 17.9k
Grenade Auto: 14.0k
Photon Forge auto (sword on cooldown): 22k
Rifle Auto: 12k
Tool Kit Auto: 13.4k
Flamethrower Auto: 14.6k Condi (Red Lentil Sorbet + Master Tuning Crystal)
Pistol Auto: 9.9k
Pistol Skills off cooldown: 15.3k
Grenade Auto: 12.1k
Grenade all skills: 15.6k
Flamethrower Auto: 12.1k
Flamethrower + Napalm: 14.0k
Bomb all DPS skills: 13.7k
Next up, Revenant. Build is here, because Snowcrows isn't hosting power rev for some reason right now.
Herald
Sword Auto (with 3 facets): 20.0k DPS
Sword auto (no upkeep): 18.6k
Sword auto (Shiro/Jalis with IO/VH): 26.6k
Staff auto (3 facets): 17.8k
Hammer Auto (3 facets): 13.3k
Hammer Auto + Hammer 2: 17.2k DPS Condi Renegade (Red Lentil Sorbet + Toxic Focusing Crystal)
Mace Auto: 16.8k
All mace + axe DPS skills: 22.2k (Note: would be lower on small hitboxes)
Shortbow Auto: 12.7k
Shortbow all DPS skills: 23.0k
Mace auto + elite upkeep skills: 22.1k
Necromancer. To keep this more "sterile", I'm going to do a minion test alone, so I won't have to worry about minions when looking at all the weapons. If you want to know the combined damage, just add the two together.
Reaper
Minion Damage: 1.17k
Greatsword Auto: 17.9k
Greatsword all DPS skills: 20.7k
Axe Auto: 11.8k
Axe DPS skills: 15.2k
Dagger Auto: 16.6k
Camping Reaper's Shroud (Dagger out of Shroud): 22.3k
Shroud all DPS skills: 23.0k Scourge
Scepter Auto: 12.7k
Scepter/Torch all DPS skills: 17.0k
Staff all skills: 6k
Mesmer
Mirage (Note: using old chaos/dueling build, I swear the build updated as I was writing this)
Axe Auto, no clones: 10.8k
Axe Auto, Clones: 21.0k
Scepter auto, Clones: 9.5k
Staff auto, clones: 15.3k Chronomancer
Sword Auto, Clones: 13.8k
Sword + Sword all DPS skills: 20.7k
Greatsword Auto, Clones: 10.4k
Greatsword all DPS skills: 14.6k
Elementalist (don't have a condi set)
Weaver
Sword Fire Auto: 17.7k
Sword Water Auto: 7.9k
Sword Air Auto: 17.8k
Sword Earth Auto: 13.5k
Dagger Fire Auto: 14.8k
Dagger Water Auto: 8.1k
Dagger Air Auto: 16.8k
Dagger Earth Auto: 12.1k
Scepter Fire Auto: 9.2k
Scepter Fire DPS skills: 13.8k
Scepter Water Auto: 8.9k
Scepter Water DPS skills: 11.3k
Scepter Air Auto: 9.6k
Scepter Air DPS skills: 12.2k
Scepter Earth Auto: 4.6k
Scepter Earth DPS Skills: 5.2k
Staff Fire Auto: 11.1k
Staff Fire + Lava Font: 16.3k
Staff Water DPS skills: 5.6k
Staff Air Auto: 7.9k
Staff Earth Auto: 5.6k
Staff Earth + Eruption Auto: 7.9k Tempest
Dagger Air Auto + Air Overload (Fresh Air): 18.9k
Guardian:
Firebrand Griever
Axe Auto: 17.5k
Axe all DPS skills:17.8k
Scepter auto + scepter 2: 15.3k Dragonhunter
Greatsword Auto: 18.2k
Greatsword all DPS skills: 24k
Sword Auto: 17.0k
Sword all DPS skills 20.4k
Scepter DPS skills: 21.6k
Mace Auto: 13.5k
Mace all DPS: 16.0k
Hammer Auto: 19.2k
Hammer All DPS: 20.9k
Longbow Auto: 12.8k
Longbow all DPS: 18.0k
The unfortunate thing about all of these weapon sets and benchmarks is that condition builds suffer the most from disparate performance between weapons and utilities/profession mechanics. In all of the condi builds, less than half of the damage comes from auto attacks. Right now, Power Thief sits exactly where I would want most classes to sit: a solid 20k-25k DPS baseline, with 30k+ DPS with good rotations/skills. Of course, ranged weapons should sit 5k lower than the power than the melee weapons, to encourage people to melee for more damage. But, some of these sub 15k damage sets shouldn't exist IMO. I'd rather have less burst from utilities/profession skills and better weapon damage than the current system, because the current system is idiot-prone.
I get where you're going with this post but unfortunately in the overall game, people dont even have zerker gear to reach these baselines. Not only that, but I've seen players who struggle with targeting and end up shooting their longbow arrows into the ground because they don't have anything targeted. I'd be curious to see what these numbers are using soldiers gear with no buffs look like as that would be the true dps floor.
I get where you're going with this post but unfortunately in the overall game, people dont even have zerker gear to reach these baselines. Not only that, but I've seen players who struggle with targeting and end up shooting their longbow arrows into the ground because they don't have anything targeted. I'd be curious to see what these numbers are using soldiers gear with no buffs look like as that would be the true dps floor.
We already know the benchmark for the infinitely incompetent. It's zero.
"Self awareness is knowing when you're sitting at the throne of ignorance." --Leo G.
I can see how arcdps has its value, but honestly, i don't think its needed anymore, raid bosses go down as long as you understand the mechs and wear the correct stats.
you dont even need ascended armor. so it seems to me its only there to spy on each others dps and provide a little toxicity.
biggest problem however is how it keeps crashing on people who didn't update it. I'm personally sick of wasting time in raids because of someone crashing 3 times in a row.
@Clyan.1593 said:
I can see how arcdps has its value, but honestly, i don't think its needed anymore, raid bosses go down as long as you understand the mechs and wear the correct stats.
you dont even need ascended armor. so it seems to me its only there to spy on each others dps and provide a little toxicity.
biggest problem however is how it keeps crashing on people who didn't update it. I'm personally sick of wasting time in raids because of someone crashing 3 times in a row.
Nah, the "boss is dead" feedback the game provides is too little for me. I like to compare with others. As said before, my reward are high % raidar logs. If you would take that away, I'd rather not play. Is it toxic if someone does significantly less dps then others and you point that out, I wouldn't say that. Wearing the right stats Is already to hard for some people in raids aswell. And what happens when there is a new wing released? Or for new players that do not have all the bosses on farm status?
@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:
The theory is this: The auto attack and really basic rotations form the baseline of player performance. Even the most helmet player can auto attack. But, it is important to know that, whenever anything goes wrong, your DPS automatically revers to the baseline. If enemies run out of the AoE, or if your skills get interrupted, or if the game lags, or if the game eats your inputs, or if you have to reposition to avoid immediate death, or whatever. The moment something goes wrong, your DPS revers back to the base level.
This doesn't exactly apply to the topic of dps meters, because in order to be kicked from the group (as is the topic) you must do less, close or equal damage to a support spec. All dps specs do more damage than support specs even when only auto-attacking. Which is why a player that is doing such low dps MUST be doing something incredibly wrong. Which is why they are kicked in the first place. A dps build doesn't do such low dps by missing a rotation or two, they reach it by being afk half the fight, or by using Nomads gear. Which, again, is why they are kicked.
The dps of a support build is at maximum 15k on the golem, which can be reached auto-attacking in lots of your tests, while it is more than easily reached if you press a couple more easily available buttons. Why not use skills 2 and 3 on weapons that it helps with dps, like Scourge Scepter? Or Weaver Sword? Are players so incompetent that they can't press 123 on their keyboards? Also, not using profession mechanics is also questionable when they provide a great increase in dps. A "proper" baseline, is every skills available to you to be off cooldown (unless it's not a damage skill), and not counting skills on second weapon set and extra skills like conjures and kits. Any player has the ability to press the rest of the buttons without the need to remember cooldowns (which is the problem with rotations) and if they do press their buttons, they can outdps the support specs just fine and not get kicked from any group.
I get your point about baseline damage but it has little to do with kicks due to dps meters.
@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:
The theory is this: The auto attack and really basic rotations form the baseline of player performance. Even the most helmet player can auto attack. But, it is important to know that, whenever anything goes wrong, your DPS automatically revers to the baseline. If enemies run out of the AoE, or if your skills get interrupted, or if the game lags, or if the game eats your inputs, or if you have to reposition to avoid immediate death, or whatever. The moment something goes wrong, your DPS revers back to the base level.
This doesn't exactly apply to the topic of dps meters, because in order to be kicked from the group (as is the topic) you must do less, close or equal damage to a support spec. All dps specs do more damage than support specs even when only auto-attacking. Which is why a player that is doing such low dps MUST be doing something incredibly wrong. Which is why they are kicked in the first place. A dps build doesn't do such low dps by missing a rotation or two, they reach it by being afk half the fight, or by using Nomads gear. Which, again, is why they are kicked.
Nothing you've said here is true.
1: The topic of DPS meters is transitively the topic of why people do low DPS. It is relevant. In fact, I'd argue it is the most important thing, because finding a practical way to resolve low player DPS is a far better solution than just shouting all the bads down for all the abuse you give them.
2: People will get kicked even when they're still doing more damage than the support toons. This benchmark for kicking that you've pulled out of nowhere is far from universal.
3: Look at the numbers. 48 out of the 95 rotations I tested have sub-16k numbers. By your own standard, half of the baseline DPS setups are at or below the failure rate. That number climbs depending on how liberal your use of the word "close" is.
4: There are several rotations that are incredibly punishing, where missing a single skill or miss-timing an attack can completely ruin your performance. Condi Scourge, Condi Renegade, Staff Weaver, Scepter Guardian, Condi Engineer, DPS and support Chronomancer,, and hell even Firebrand are all like this. That is just the professions I have first hand experience with. Who knows what trials and tribulations warriors and rangers all face.
5: People don't bring RNG builds into places like high end fractals. You don't just end up with a full ascended bad build. There are countless stories of people getting kicked even when using a 1:1 copy of a meta build, including my own.
6: The point of these tests is that things go wrong. Skills get interrupted directly or indirectly, or the skills miss, or the DPS window hits an awkward time, or the enemy moves, or there's lag, or an input gets eaten, or someoen's finger's fumble, or something IRL distracts, or RNG gets in the way. Whenever all of that stuff happens, we revert to the baseline, so if the baseline is low then the default performance of a player is set to terrible.
"Self awareness is knowing when you're sitting at the throne of ignorance." --Leo G.
@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:
In fact, I'd argue it is the most important thing, because finding a practical way to resolve low player DPS is a far better solution than just shouting all the bads down for all the abuse you give them.
2: People will get kicked even when they're still doing more damage than the support toons.
How much higher than support? 1k? 2k? To be honest even reading threads about dps meters nobody complained that they got kicked when they did "just 2k dps lower than the top".
3: Look at the numbers. 48 out of the 95 rotations I tested have sub-16k numbers. By your own standard, half of the baseline DPS setups are at or below the failure rate. That number climbs depending on how liberal your use of the word "close" is.
Because the "rotations" you used aren't rotations. If you used actual rotations (usage of skills instead of auto-attacking alone) your numbers wouldn't be so low.
4: There are several rotations that are incredibly punishing, where missing a single skill or miss-timing an attack can completely ruin your performance. Condi Scourge, Condi Renegade, Staff Weaver, Scepter Guardian, Condi Engineer, DPS and support Chronomancer,, and hell even Firebrand are all like this. That is just the professions I have first hand experience with. Who knows what trials and tribulations warriors and rangers all face.
Missing a single skill or miss-timing an attack won't get you kicked as the dps loss isn't as noticeable.
5: People don't bring RNG builds into places like high end fractals. You don't just end up with a full ascended bad build. There are countless stories of people getting kicked even when using a 1:1 copy of a meta build, including my own.
1:1 copy of a meta build doesn't make you proficient in playing said build.
6: The point of these tests is that things go wrong. Skills get interrupted directly or indirectly, or the skills miss, or the DPS window hits an awkward time, or the enemy moves, or there's lag, or an input gets eaten, or someoen's finger's fumble, or something IRL distracts, or RNG gets in the way. Whenever all of that stuff happens, we revert to the baseline, so if the baseline is low then the default performance of a player is set to terrible.
Good. This kind of baseline is expected to be terrible because you aren't using any of your available options. And those "things that go wrong" you can press 2 or 3 instead of 1 when things go wrong. There is no need to revert to your auto-attack in ANY situation imaginable.
Edit: Also, keep in mind that the 15k is from top raiding players playing the build and only focusing on dps. In ACTUAL gameplay the Druid and support Chronomancer will do much less damage as they have a completely different objective/role in the fights. Which means, in most situations just auto-attacking as a dps build, will give you more dps than those supports. Which also means, if someone doesn't do more (WAY more) it means they are doing something fundamentally wrong.
Nobody mention about a Support spec not actually doing enough supporting and focusing on damage instead . That's a joke, but actually might be valid in itself. If you kick a DPS because they are lower than someone in the party doing support, when the support's DPS is arbitrarily high, then nothing says the support isn't focusing on what his role is, no ?
@Naxos.2503 said:
Nobody mention about a Support spec not actually doing enough supporting and focusing on damage instead . That's a joke, but actually might be valid in itself. If you kick a DPS because they are lower than someone in the party doing support, when the support's DPS is arbitrarily high, then nothing says the support isn't focusing on what his role is, no ?
True, but given that boon up-time is a thing, this is easy checked.
Most people will complain about a dps being far behind other dps which is the first thing which will get noticed(and again, if you are 2-5k below the top dps no one will care. Most people who get kicked are simply terrible) .
Supports doing a poor job will be noticed the moment the entire raid performs poorly. Trust me, support players get called out often enough, especially healers who have to cover for people's insanely bad positioning some times.
It's often just that inexperienced players first focus on pure damage numbers.
Did T4 yesterday as a harrier druid.
One Dragon Hunter in the party was doing 2-3K dps constantly, most times being actually below my dps. Around 22K AP
One Necro variant (forgot exact which spec) was doing the same, but with some spikes to 6K dps. Over 10K AP
One Dragon Hunter had a constant ~15K+ dps, effectively caring the whole party's dps.
When I asked if any of them were running a healing build they laughed like i was telling a good joke. Something like: Can't you see I am a Dragon Hunter? We are not healers!"
The T4 run took close to 1 hour & 30 minutes. Don't ask me how I just did not leave the party cause I do not know the answer.
I guess they were for banning ArcDPS also/totally against it/I play how I want even tho it is your lost time also.
Letting people see their cooldowns isn't going to solve the problem. Mistakes are still punishing, and overly complicated rotations still make mistakes way too easy.
@maddoctor.2738 said:
How much higher than support? 1k? 2k? To be honest even reading threads about dps meters nobody complained that they got kicked when they did "just 2k dps lower than the top".
Well, that's up to the whims of the kicker, now isn't it?
@maddoctor.2738 said:
Because the "rotations" you used aren't rotations. If you used actual rotations (usage of skills instead of auto-attacking alone) your numbers wouldn't be so low.
At least it is good to know that you have not been paying attention.
@maddoctor.2738 said:
Missing a single skill or miss-timing an attack won't get you kicked as the dps loss isn't as noticeable.
It does and it is.
@maddoctor.2738 said:
1:1 copy of a meta build doesn't make you proficient in playing said build.
Nice red herring. Pay attention now.
@maddoctor.2738 said:
Good. This kind of baseline is expected to be terrible because you aren't using any of your available options. And those "things that go wrong" you can press 2 or 3 instead of 1 when things go wrong. There is no need to revert to your auto-attack in ANY situation imaginable.
Considering that the convoluted rotations make doing well at this game needlessly complicated and punishing, and that this disparity between performances is breeding mass hostility, paranoia, and discontent among the player base at large, I would say that all this is not "good" at all. It's quite bad, actually. There are a lot of other games where it is far easier to have good performance while doing far less. If we raise the baseline performance for a lot of these classes, everybody wins. All of the elitists get to feel smug because the top DPS rotations are still a Rube Goldberg mess, and the casual players get to feel better because they do better and face less hostility.
@maddoctor.2738 said:
Edit: Also, keep in mind that the 15k is from top raiding players playing the build and only focusing on dps. In ACTUAL gameplay the Druid and support Chronomancer will do much less damage as they have a completely different objective/role in the fights. Which means, in most situations just auto-attacking as a dps build, will give you more dps than those supports. Which also means, if someone doesn't do more (WAY more) it means they are doing something fundamentally wrong.
All ships rise and fall with the tide, so that is all irrelevant.
Why are you here? Seriously. You aren't paying attention. You're just saying whatever comes to mind, regardless of context, just to be defiant and contrarian. What good comes from you being here?
"Self awareness is knowing when you're sitting at the throne of ignorance." --Leo G.
@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:
Letting people see their cooldowns isn't going to solve the problem.
It's gonna reduce the effect rotations have on your dps. It won't solve the problem completely unless the players themselves try to get better. All without making all builds work like Daredevil/Deadeye. Funny thing is, even Daredevils/Deadeyes do low dps and get kicked, even though their "rotation" is brain dead.
Considering that the convoluted rotations make doing well at this game needlessly complicated and punishing, and that this disparity between performances is breeding mass hostility, paranoia, and discontent among the player base at large, I would say that all this is not "good" at all.
I suggest you take account on how many daredevils and deadeyes get kicked. Or their rotation is also punishing and complicated?
All ships rise and fall with the tide, so that is all irrelevant.
Well I could retype it in a simpler way for you to understand.
Your so called rotations are doing ~15k dps on average. A well played support role that focuses exclusively on dps on a stationary golem does 15k. It stands to reason that in actual combat that same support would deal far less damage. Meaning even your silly rotations can outdps a support, meaning they shouldn't be kicked. But they are, because those getting kicked aren't even following your own rotations.
All these people need to go to WvW where DPS rotations don't mean squat. 10-16k on lords is considered excellent.
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The only problem I have with arcdps is that it is a 3rd party program. I don't want to deal with the hassle of updating/troubleshooting bugs after every patch. If a dps meter was offered from Anet, I would use it all the time.
@Naxos.2503 said:
Nobody mention about a Support spec not actually doing enough supporting and focusing on damage instead . That's a joke, but actually might be valid in itself. If you kick a DPS because they are lower than someone in the party doing support, when the support's DPS is arbitrarily high, then nothing says the support isn't focusing on what his role is, no ?
They will complain if a player who plays as dps role do less dps than support
In my experience, being clear about your expectations is the key to avoiding these issues. If you don't use a DPS meter, you should probably not assume that you're a strong performer (Seriously, how could you know?) and you should avoid joining groups with strict requirements. By the same token, if you're forming your own group you can save yourself a lot of headaches by indicating that you aren't looking for speed demons and control freaks. Group with the type of people who play the way you play and you'll avoid most of these issues. That goes for everyone, whether they use a DPS meter or not.
You can always join a friendly guild who will not act elitist towards you, but supportive instead. If you are looking for one, feel free to contact me. Send me mail in game (NA). For the most part, in the evenings (US EST evenings), you will not have a problem finding a group in the guild for dungeons or fractals (and we are setting up raid training groups too).
People who do not use meters, tend to not realize how unoptimized or poor their performance/rotations really are _(because they literally can't track or see their dps...).
I would actually argue that for the vast majority of players, it's not that they do not realize this.. it's simply that they do not care.
I speak as one of those players who does not care about min/maxing DPS as playing to perfect rotations and hiting DPS benchmarks is absoutely not fun in my opinion.
The second playing a game becomes a chore for me it stops being fun.. and if i'm not having fun then there's no point in even playing.
I love games with built in meters (like BnS for example) because it FORCES the average player to become a BETTER player on average, because they can't choose to hide their own performance from themselves and others. Games without any sort of dps tracking usually have the biggest disparity between casual "scrub tier dps" players that THINK they're good, and the actual min/max hardcore base that do the math and track their dps.
Agreed on the disparity but not on the insult, min/maxing DPS isn't the only way to measure a players skill and brand them good or not.
Hell I could easily argue that a so called casual scrub that survives a world boss without being downed is a far better player than all those DPS players who get wiped out 2-3 times during the fight.
DPS is just that.. sure you are putting out more damage but that does not make you better than everyone else.. specially if your dead or dying half the time which many DPSers usually are in good chunks of the open world content.
End of the day it's irrelevant.. everyone has a right to play what they want and how they enjoy the game.. and nobody has the right to criticize them for not playing to other peoples expectations.. specially in content that can easily be beaten with any team regardless of experience and build effectiveness.
T3-4 Fractals and Raids are quite literally the only content where this stuff actually matters.. and even there it doesn't matter as much as most people think.. not unless you're going for record times.
This type of playstyle environment simply isn't for everyone, and a lot of people who like MMOs don't realize this and blame every problem they face on "blind toxicity from elitists".
I disagree with that statement.. this game was fundamentally designed to be inclusive to all, That's primarily why it was designed unlike most MMO's to be a solo based game.
If anything the Hardcore DPS side of this game is the foreign element that doesn't belong.
You say the casual players should avoid the harder content yet there is far more of an argument to say the minority of players who enjoy the harder content should go an play other MMO's that cater more to their kind of interests and playstyles.
I'm not actually saying that should be the case though before anyone takes that literally.. as I said the game was designed to be inclusive to all and i'm not personally against harder content either.
I enjoy challenging myself at times and testing the limitations of what my builds can handle in the open world.. but I can't stand other people judging me or others based on the numbers our avatars produce on their 3rd party software.
I don't play to other peoples expectations and I don't care if they are doing more or less damage than I am.
I'd rather play with a group of newbies who don't know what they are doing that put up with some elitist whining in the chat and demanding the rest of us kick another player because they will make the content take longer..
That is not an issue in my book or most other players either.
Isn’t this topic filled with subjective opinions?
In the end I think OP just have to find fellow players with the same view.
I see why people might not want 3rd party add-ons, but man some of them brings good QoL.
ArcDps can help you see if the “new” maybe even out of meta build can perform the way you want it to.
I mean one can kill with a hammer, but it is still meant to hit the nails rather than the heads.
And as people state, some people like using it for efficiency, why ruin it for them?
There is no “victims” here, as I am sure that no real crime was commited, at most a few broken rules.
If you wanna raid, join a raid guild, training-train or w/e.
And if you want toxicity, try a few matches in league spvp
I will never understand this discussion at all. If there is no DPS tracking tool other requirements or reasons to kick someone will takes it place. Things like gear ping, ap or the good old class hate. Toxic people will still be toxic. Communitys with the meta way to play mindset will also be the same. Also i don't understand what's the problem with joining/setting up groups witch fits to the personal playstyle. I play both ways ''casual'' with fun builds but also ''elitist'' get the job done as fast as possible with meta groups. I can't remember the last time i get kicked out of a pug in case of my dps.
@SunTzu.4513 said:
I will never understand this discussion at all. If there is no DPS tracking tool other requirements or reasons to kick someone will takes it place. Things like gear ping, ap or the good old class hate.
I think that the difference between these things and the DPS tool is that the DPS tool is something that a player cannot opt out of. If a group asks for gear ping, a player has the option to not ping it; granted, they'll probably get kicked anyway but that's not the point here in my understanding.
If we ban ArcDps, we need a way to know if a player is bad - therefore, a stat sheet and deaths to raid bosses, mechanical failures would be required so we could weed people out and not waste time.
ArcDps serves as a way to indicate player skill, mostly, if they have high dps, they obvious spent time learning their rotation in a raid environment.
@SunTzu.4513 said:
I will never understand this discussion at all. If there is no DPS tracking tool other requirements or reasons to kick someone will takes it place. Things like gear ping, ap or the good old class hate.
I think that the difference between these things and the DPS tool is that the DPS tool is something that a player cannot opt out of. If a group asks for gear ping, a player has the option to not ping it; granted, they'll probably get kicked anyway but that's not the point here in my understanding.
Sure it is. But not having their dps visible (assuming they would pass the more stringent requirements that would follow) would not increase the overall group dps. If it would happen to be too low (and it would be), then someone would end up getting judned for it. The problem? If we can't actually see player dps, then someone else might get erroneously judged instead. And i bet that the player that didn't want the dps meters would be among the first to throw the stone.
The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.
I would actually argue that for the vast majority of players, it's not that they do not realize this.. it's simply that they do not care.
I speak as one of those players who does not care about min/maxing DPS as playing to perfect rotations and hiting DPS benchmarks is absoutely not fun in my opinion.
The second playing a game becomes a chore for me it stops being fun.. and if i'm not having fun then there's no point in even playing.
I'm sure that while most players who don't use a DPS meter are aware they aren't the best of the best, they are probably convinced that they aren't that bad. In the absence of information, they assume that they belong in any group and that people who take issue with their performance are just nitpicking over a meaningless number.
It's fine if you don't care about these things. Play open world. Form your own group for fractals/raids. But don't expect that you have a right to play poorly and cause problems for a group full of players that do care about these things. That's just asking for conflict.
I do run a DPS meter, but I'm not big into fractals and I don't optimize for them. For that reason I always indicate the sort of group I'm looking for (e.g. "chill run", "new players welcome", etc.) to avoid issues. I'd rather accept a slower pace than listen to players griping at each other, dropping group, or worse voting to kick each other. I'm in it for fun and that sort of thing kills it for me.
@rabenpriester.7129 said:
Can't believe this thread is still not closed tbh. We had a clear statement from anet, we have a good status quo, why are we still here?
Declaring the discussion over doesn't actually end the debate. People still aren't happy with DPS meters, and they probably never will be.
"Self awareness is knowing when you're sitting at the throne of ignorance." --Leo G.
Many games don't explicitly allow damage meters. Games like FF14 doesn't have them either. Granted they do exist for that game too. However, it is a bannable offense to bring it up in game. Even as much as talking about it is grounds for a suspension.
GW2 needs a firmer hand on damage meters. Any references to damage, or numbers should be bannable. I don't do dungeons in this game because of that very reason. I'm not the best player in the world, still pretty unfamiliar with most of the game's intricate designs. I can't wear beserker gear as I'm not good enough at dodging and avoiding things and need the extra health padding. I'm not good enough with swapping weapons around and have a hard time with combo finishers.
Veteran players seem to always forget just how much of a steep learning curve the game can have. And some people just don't want to do speed runs of everything. I HATE SPEED RUNS. I really despise how the dungeon community is here. Everyone wants to clear it in world record setting speed. I would rather take some extra time and do the dungeon at a slower pace. We still finish it, so why is it a big deal?!
@heartless.9014 said:
Many games don't explicitly allow damage meters. Games like FF14 doesn't have them either. Granted they do exist for that game too. However, it is a bannable offense to bring it up in game. Even as much as talking about it is grounds for a suspension.
GW2 needs a firmer hand on damage meters. Any references to damage, or numbers should be bannable. I don't do dungeons in this game because of that very reason. I'm not the best player in the world, still pretty unfamiliar with most of the game's intricate designs. I can't wear beserker gear as I'm not good enough at dodging and avoiding things and need the extra health padding. I'm not good enough with swapping weapons around and have a hard time with combo finishers.
Veteran players seem to always forget just how much of a steep learning curve the game can have. And some people just don't want to do speed runs of everything. I HATE SPEED RUNS. I really despise how the dungeon community is here. Everyone wants to clear it in world record setting speed. I would rather take some extra time and do the dungeon at a slower pace. We still finish it, so why is it a big deal?!
Finishing fast is a matter of convenience. People have lives, plus other things they want to do in the game. Taking an hour to do content they've done in twenty minutes means forty minutes opportunity cost. This could mean the player(s) impacted will have to choose between leaving out something else they wanted to do in game, or take that time from some out-of-game thing -- like family time, or sleep. As people get older, have families or other obligations, time becomes scarcer.
Being able to join a group and complete content -- without having to seek out other people who don't care whether a player is running something that is not optimal -- is a matter of convenience. "Anything should be OK" players could take the time to make friends, join a guild, look for, or post an "any build is OK" run. Some of them choose their own convenience over the convenience of the other players.
Why is the time of the "anything should be OK" player more valuable than other players' time? Why should players who want a fast run obligated to fulfill your wish for convenience at the expense of their own? I get that some think that other players should accommodate other peoples' needs. Shouldn't that work both ways? Shouldn't "anything goes" players also be obligated to consider others?
Don't get me wrong. I don't care for the optimum play attitude, either. However, I just don't join those people. I don't care for their attitude -- they don't care for my play preferences. The only sane option is for us to not play together.
Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it. -- Santayana
@heartless.9014 said:
Many games don't explicitly allow damage meters. Games like FF14 doesn't have them either. Granted they do exist for that game too. However, it is a bannable offense to bring it up in game. Even as much as talking about it is grounds for a suspension.
GW2 needs a firmer hand on damage meters. Any references to damage, or numbers should be bannable. I don't do dungeons in this game because of that very reason. I'm not the best player in the world, still pretty unfamiliar with most of the game's intricate designs. I can't wear beserker gear as I'm not good enough at dodging and avoiding things and need the extra health padding. I'm not good enough with swapping weapons around and have a hard time with combo finishers.
Veteran players seem to always forget just how much of a steep learning curve the game can have. And some people just don't want to do speed runs of everything. I HATE SPEED RUNS. I really despise how the dungeon community is here. Everyone wants to clear it in world record setting speed. I would rather take some extra time and do the dungeon at a slower pace. We still finish it, so why is it a big deal?!
Finishing fast is a matter of convenience. People have lives, plus other things they want to do in the game. Taking an hour to do content they've done in twenty minutes means forty minutes opportunity cost. This could mean the player(s) impacted will have to choose between leaving out something else they wanted to do in game, or take that time from some out-of-game thing -- like family time, or sleep. As people get older, have families or other obligations, time becomes scarcer.
Being able to join a group and complete content -- without having to seek out other people who don't care whether a player is running something that is not optimal -- is a matter of convenience. "Anything should be OK" players could take the time to make friends, join a guild, look for, or post an "any build is OK" run. Some of them choose their own convenience over the convenience of the other players.
Why is the time of the "anything should be OK" player more valuable than other players' time? Why should players who want a fast run obligated to fulfill your wish for convenience at the expense of their own? I get that some think that other players should accommodate other peoples' needs. Shouldn't that work both ways? Shouldn't "anything goes" players also be obligated to consider others?
Don't get me wrong. I don't care for the optimum play attitude, either. However, I just don't join those people. I don't care for their attitude -- they don't care for my play preferences. The only sane option is for us to not play together.
And that is exactly why I do not do a single instanced dungeon of any sorts in this game. The game community is 100% speed runners. That's all there is. Nobody else plays the game or does dungeons. So there is no sense in me even bothers to do a dungeon when I've never done any of them.
@heartless.9014 said:
The game community is 100% speed runners.
It's really not.
Nobody else plays the game or does dungeons.
I think you'd find quite a lot do both/either.
So there is no sense in me even bothers to do a dungeon when I've never done any of them.
If you mean the grapes are sour because the fox can't reach them, then sure.
But if you're interested in learning, there are a large number of newbie-friendly guilds out there. Post a request in the Players Helping Players subforum and mention whether you're NA or EU.
"Face the facts. Then act on them. It's ...the only doctrine I have to offer you, & it's harder than you'd think, because I swear humans seem hardwired to do anything but. Face the facts. Don't pray, don't wish, ...FACE THE FACTS. THEN act." — Quellcrist Falconer
@rabenpriester.7129 said:
Can't believe this thread is still not closed tbh. We had a clear statement from anet, we have a good status quo, why are we still here?
Declaring the discussion over doesn't actually end the debate. People still aren't happy with DPS meters, and they probably never will be.
If people here would actually do their job and close the thread, then the debate would be over. DPS Meters are allowed, and everyone knows they aren't getting banned. Discussing is useless. We have an official statement, yet some discuss as if that would not exist. We should move on.
@rabenpriester.7129 said:
Can't believe this thread is still not closed tbh. We had a clear statement from anet, we have a good status quo, why are we still here?
Declaring the discussion over doesn't actually end the debate. People still aren't happy with DPS meters, and they probably never will be.
If people here would actually do their job and close the thread, then the debate would be over. DPS Meters are allowed, and everyone knows they aren't getting banned. Discussing is useless. We have an official statement, yet some discuss as if that would not exist. We should move on.
They aren't getting banned... until the devs change their mind. Policy isn't incontrovertible.
"Self awareness is knowing when you're sitting at the throne of ignorance." --Leo G.
Anything 3rd party program that exists in the game that allows players to criticize or basically exclude other players from content shouldn't exist in the first place. We are told that we are to play how we want to play, and I'm pretty sure nowhere in their rules does it state players are allowed to tell or dictate how other players are to play. We can't change players toxic behavior (at least not that easily), but you can take away their ammo by not allowing such programs into the game.
This was one of the issues prior to the existence of raids; many were saying it was going to create far more toxic behavior than we had previously. Also, if dps meters then became prominent in the game due to raids, it was going to exacerbate the problem, and look where we are today. Basically; "We told you so", is in order here.
As others have stated, dps meters are basically a moot. If you know the mechanics of the boss; they're going down, you don't need dps meters. They seem to be providing a more negative effect than positive one. It's not one players job to tell another player how to play, nor is it their job to provide advice or feedback if it's not warranted. If the player asks, then give it, if they don't ask, say nothing. Don't tell them their dps is low; instead take like minded players from your group, leave the group, and start another one with like-minded players, and restart the raid.
Sure, dps meters aren't banned now, but don't be so quick to assume they'll stay that way. If players can't learn to play nicely, Anet can & will ban them at will (including the accounts that continue to use them).
It boils down to this: DPS meters are not getting banned and even if they were, it would be even harder to do raids with "elite groups" because they would only be taking builds/classes they choose and if they don't like you for ANY reason, you are gone. It's been mentioned MANY times in this thread. The toxicity was there BEFORE the meters existed. Anyone remember the days of Korean MMO dominance over a decade ago? I do. I still remember in Aion, before they released DPS meters for it, people would get kicked if they weren't "in the know" for DPS and the such. It was SO EASY to get kicked.
Whether you like it or not, the toxicity will be there. DPS meters, being here or not, will not change that and never, I repeat and this is a proven FACT, never change.
@DeadlySynz.3471 said:
Anything 3rd party program that exists in the game that allows players to criticize or basically exclude other players from content shouldn't exist in the first place. We are told that we are to play how we want to play, and I'm pretty sure nowhere in their rules does it state players are allowed to tell or dictate how other players are to play. We can't change players toxic behavior (at least not that easily), but you can take away their ammo by not allowing such programs into the game.
I'm guessing you're forgetting the No Necro, No Ranger, 10k AP., 1 ele, 1 gaurd 3 warr... meta? DPS meters don't create toxicity. And actually are more fair/balanced now.
So long as you carry your weight.
This was one of the issues prior to the existence of raids; many were saying it was going to create far more toxic behavior than we had previously. Also, if dps meters then became prominent in the game due to raids, it was going to exacerbate the problem, and look where we are today. Basically; "We told you so", is in order here.
It hasn't made it worse tho. In fact all classes are accepted to raids ..again so long as you carry your weight.
They seem to be providing a more negative effect than positive one.
You've already said this in a different way.
It's not one players job to tell another player how to play, nor is it their job to provide advice or feedback if it's not warranted.
Then, don't play with those players? You're free to create your own causal guild or party.
If the player asks, then give it, if they don't ask, say nothing. Don't tell them their dps is low; instead take like minded players from your group, leave the group, and start another one with like-minded players, and restart the raid.
What if they asked for like minded players to join their lfg, don't they have the right to kick those who aren't?
Sure, dps meters aren't banned now, but don't be so quick to assume they'll stay that way. If players can't learn to play nicely, Anet can & will ban them at will (including the accounts that continue to use them).
Players didn't play nice before them.
It's not new for players to want to play with only a certain group.
@heartless.9014 said:
Any references to damage, or numbers should be bannable.
Health bars are a meter that lets us see how much unnecessary damage people take. You can be kicked out of a group for taking too much damage, so let's stop people from talking about health and remove the ability to see health bars. Seeing health bars breeds toxicity.
If we can see other peoples' player models, then we can see when they're standing in bad stuff, when they're running too far ahead, if they're hitting the wrong thing, etc. Let's stop people from talking about player location, and remove their ability to see other peoples' player models so we can't give them advice when they're standing in bad stuff, among other things. People can't be toxic to others if they can't see their health bars or their player models.
You know, people in general are toxic. Let's remove chat entirely because interaction with other players is where toxicity comes from. Additionally, let's just remove the game, because without Guild Wars 2 in the picture, players cannot be toxic within it.
Now I hope you realize just how asinine the sentence I quoted from you is. It isn't damage, it isn't a meter, it isn't visibility of anything that breeds toxicity. People are jerks, and they will always be jerks. These jerks will always find something to complain about you. If it isn't damage, it's where you're standing, what you're hitting, or how much damage you're taking from mobs and mechanics, and oftentimes they'll just find a scapegoat (you) for their own shortcomings. There is NO way around this aside from reporting people who misbehave. Banning damage meters will do absolutely nothing to the common jerk's attitude and personality.
As long as raid encounters have enrage timers, damage meters and the ability to have a conversation about damage will always be in the game. That's why the ability to use meters was allowed in the first place. It is immensely helpful to see what builds and rotations work best to defeat encounters, and which ones don't.
@Applejuice.4083 said:
Had two instances today, before anyone comments on gear, my guild and rotation comes from snowcrows to the T, including food. Went in for nostalgia on a dungeon run and got kicked towards the end of AC P2 because "Dps sucks", really? On AC P2? , 2nd instance was at VG was hitting 30-40k+ but it was "too low" and people started to get boot left and right. How do you expect people to learn and stay end game, when its filled with elitism? Ban ArcDPS please. It breeds toxic people.
I'm sorry you experienced that. That is terrible behavior.
That was my go to dungeon. I guided dozens and dozens if not hundreds of new players in that dungeon in story mode and in all explorable paths on my warrior and guardian. Many times the players were level 35-50. I was the only level 80 in the group. We were able to successfully complete the dungeon. It wasn't perfect every time but that's part of learning. And some runs were so smooth you wouldn't have guessed they were new.
I'm speechless your former team mates felt the need to kick a 5th player due to low dps. It's disgusting. I don't know what their LFG read but if it read "level 80s dps only". That can be open to interpretation. I may be level 80 using dps traits but wearing soldier gear. I found one AC group in LFG looking for "lvl 80 high dps meta build". It's just a dungeon....not a T4 fractal/CM/Raid. Dungeons are the intro of group instanced content. It's where players learn to work together in instanced content.
One decently geared experienced player can carry a group. Maybe the player didn't want to do that but if there is a second decently geared experienced player then the mobs and bosses should melt then. The only issue is having the other 3 players keep up.
@Ayakaru.6583 said:
I'm sorry, but how naive do you have to be to believe the people weren't already toxic before ArcDPS came out.
Tools don't breed toxicity.
Toxicity abuses tools.
technically correct, wrong in practice. there is a difference between a knife and an automatic weapon.
@heartless.9014 said:
Many games don't explicitly allow damage meters. Games like FF14 doesn't have them either. Granted they do exist for that game too. However, it is a bannable offense to bring it up in game. Even as much as talking about it is grounds for a suspension.
GW2 needs a firmer hand on damage meters. Any references to damage, or numbers should be bannable. I don't do dungeons in this game because of that very reason. I'm not the best player in the world, still pretty unfamiliar with most of the game's intricate designs. I can't wear beserker gear as I'm not good enough at dodging and avoiding things and need the extra health padding. I'm not good enough with swapping weapons around and have a hard time with combo finishers.
Veteran players seem to always forget just how much of a steep learning curve the game can have. And some people just don't want to do speed runs of everything. I HATE SPEED RUNS. I really despise how the dungeon community is here. Everyone wants to clear it in world record setting speed. I would rather take some extra time and do the dungeon at a slower pace. We still finish it, so why is it a big deal?!
With respect, damage meters are not your problem. Speed runs would exist with or without them and players who would give you a hard time now would still do so without a damage meter. They'd simply find another metric to base their judgments upon. Behaviors such as requiring perfect group comps and achievements would become more prevalent.
In any event, you have a way to exert some control over this issue yourself. Again, damage meters are not your problem. Your problem is the type of player you're grouping with. Take control of the situation! Form your own group and be specific about your expectations. Many players of all skill levels enjoy casual runs either to take it easy or just to lend a hand to players who might otherwise struggle. What you generally won't find are obsessive speed runners willing to join groups that explicitly state their intentions NOT to lead that type of run!
I'm personally a fan of the tags "chill run", "casual run", or "new players welcome". These are like a huge, blinking neon sign telling speed runners to run the other direction FAST!
@DeadlySynz.3471 said:
Anything 3rd party program that exists in the game that allows players to criticize or basically exclude other players from content shouldn't exist in the first place. We are told that we are to play how we want to play, and I'm pretty sure nowhere in their rules does it state players are allowed to tell or dictate how other players are to play. We can't change players toxic behavior (at least not that easily), but you can take away their ammo by not allowing such programs into the game.
This was one of the issues prior to the existence of raids; many were saying it was going to create far more toxic behavior than we had previously. Also, if dps meters then became prominent in the game due to raids, it was going to exacerbate the problem, and look where we are today. Basically; "We told you so", is in order here.
As others have stated, dps meters are basically a moot. If you know the mechanics of the boss; they're going down, you don't need dps meters. They seem to be providing a more negative effect than positive one. It's not one players job to tell another player how to play, nor is it their job to provide advice or feedback if it's not warranted. If the player asks, then give it, if they don't ask, say nothing. Don't tell them their dps is low; instead take like minded players from your group, leave the group, and start another one with like-minded players, and restart the raid.
Sure, dps meters aren't banned now, but don't be so quick to assume they'll stay that way. If players can't learn to play nicely, Anet can & will ban them at will (including the accounts that continue to use them).
Then why are you trying to dictate how other players play the game? If they want to speed run and obsess about DPS, who made you king that you deserve a spot in their raid?
DPS meters are a tool that many players want. Heck, I'm primarily a solo open world player. I get my enjoyment from soloing group events and champion/legendary bosses. I want DPS meters, too! They're a useful tool that many MMO players expect to have access to.
Comments
A general PSA on Dps meters:
People who do not use meters, tend to not realize how unoptimized or poor their performance/rotations really are (because they literally can't track or see their dps...). They see big numbers and dish out spells constantly, but may not realize that they are not playing optimally, or are even getting carried by someone who is. I ran into his extremely often in my MMO career, and had this problem myself back in the day before I grew a pair and just started using meters myself to see why I got kicked when I thought or felt I was doing so well.
I love games with built in meters (like BnS for example) because it FORCES the average player to become a BETTER player on average, because they can't choose to hide their own performance from themselves and others. Games without any sort of dps tracking usually have the biggest disparity between casual "scrub tier dps" players that THINK they're good, and the actual min/max hardcore base that do the math and track their dps.
If you are someone who do not use meters, just use one and see for yourself in a real dungeon scenario how you actually preform (not on training dummies). You may be surprised at how sloppy you truly play in a real scenario, on how missing one or 2 spells or slacking on a bust window drastically drops your DPS results. If you want to do the hardest content in any game, then you are have to realize you are constantly competing with the top base for your spot in the party, this is the simple reality in any multiplayer game. If you don't want to deal with the gripes/toxicity that naturally comes with the territory, I suggest you stick to doing more causal content, and there is nothing wrong with that. This type of playstyle environment simply isn't for everyone, and a lot of people who like MMOs don't realize this and blame every problem they face on "blind toxicity from elitists".
The issue is, and always has been, that people with diametrically opposed play styles shouldnt play together. If you are a hardcore efficiency/goal oriented player you should not join a group intending a casual, bring whatever you feel like, instance run. If you are a casual, play whatever you feel like, player you should not join a group of hardcore players attempting an efficient instance run.
accept that is up to the other players or the community. I guess you'd have to completely eliminate the ability to select teammates and make
everything random with no option of kicking, only quitting what ever content it is that you happen to have been put into with people that
aren't playing as you(in the broad sense) would like, but I highly doubt you'd get many people to play such a game...or you wouldn't get "hard core"
players to play it, it might appeal the the "casual" mindset(aka those that play mobile and FB games) because then you're just
playing the game for fun and only fun.
Yes...no...maybe...what do you want, can't you see I'm busy saving the world...AGAIN!
DPS meters were legal and available in WoW the moment raids were in game. The community continued to grow, and grow, and grow even with those DPS meters allegedly ruining the game and community all throughout Vanilla, Burning Crusade, and peaking at 12 Million in Wrath of the Lich King.
Its almost like WoW's struggles were because of issues completely unrelated to DPS meters and were things new to the game starting with Cataclysm when things actually started to decline.
The Psychomancer: Mesmer Elite Specialization Suggestion
This is objectively untrue and you can go back and listen to and read interviews with former game director Collin Johansson about the intention and direction of the original dungeons. Dungeons and GW2 were always designed to be challenging affairs for hard core players, where you did care about your gear, your build, and group composition. They only reason the ended up being so easy is the developers heavily misunderstood the value of damage and the intricacies of their own combat system and how far players could take it.
What was always designed to be true about GW2 is that hard engame group content was always supposed to be one smaller piece of a large draw that catered to a variety of plays like more casual players with open world and story, serious PvPers with SPvP, siege zerg Open World PvPers and gankers with WvW and hardcore PvErs with dungeons.
It also promised to never have an endless gear treadmill and to lock the best gear behind super super difficult content. And to it's mostly stayed true to creating an MMORPG where there is something for everyone, including those who can only play a couple hours a week.
The Psychomancer: Mesmer Elite Specialization Suggestion
miss-post. Entire post isn't ready yet.
"Self awareness is knowing when you're sitting at the throne of ignorance." --Leo G.
To really hammer the point home on how easy it is to do bad DPS in this game, I decided to do a couple of tests. Also, I decided to stimulate the economy by buying some overpriced soup. All of these tests basically follow the snowcrows build, with a few exceptions:
1: I don't have the stat infusions. As rich as I am, I still don't have enough money to outfit 20 different builds with eighteen +9/+5 infusions.
2: I still have Sigil of Air equipped instead of Sigil of Impact
Otherwise it is basically the same. Full ascended. Frost/Sun/Spotter from druid, 9 boons, Empower Allies/Strength/Discipline from warrior, large golem with all conditions. Food is Sweet and Spicy Butternut Squash Soup + Potent Superior Sharpening Stone unless otherwise stated. For all of these tests, I'm going to show how much damage is done just using the auto attacks, and sometimes the damage done from very, VERY simple skills and rotations.
The theory is this: The auto attack and really basic rotations form the baseline of player performance. Even the most helmet player can auto attack. But, it is important to know that, whenever anything goes wrong, your DPS automatically revers to the baseline. If enemies run out of the AoE, or if your skills get interrupted, or if the game lags, or if the game eats your inputs, or if you have to reposition to avoid immediate death, or whatever. The moment something goes wrong, your DPS revers back to the base level.
Classes and builds that have terrible baseline DPS are accident prone and difficult to play, since your overall DPS is averaged out through all of your skills. It's like your overall grade in school: if you get a bunch of A's, but then a few 0s, your grade can plummet incredibly fast. Now, if all classes had a good base performance, then concerns over DPS wouldn't be nearly as severe as they are now. Unfortunately, for the sake of vague notions like "flavor" a lot of weapons are currently built to be purposefully terrible and inferior. Most of our weapon skills are terrible, and all of our good DPS skills are limited to utilities and profession specific mechanics.
This won't be a comprehensive list. I don't own a warrior or a ranger, and also I don't have a viper set for my firebrand. If someone else is curious, they'd have to do it themselves.
Engineer:
Scrapper
Hammer Auto: 16.6k
Hammer Auto w/ Rifle Turret: 18.3k
Holosmith
Sword Auto, 0 heat: 17.3k
Sword auto w/ sword 2, 0 heat: 17.7k
Bomb Auto: 17.5k
Bomb Auto w/ Fire Bomb: 17.9k
Grenade Auto: 14.0k
Photon Forge auto (sword on cooldown): 22k
Rifle Auto: 12k
Tool Kit Auto: 13.4k
Flamethrower Auto: 14.6k
Condi (Red Lentil Sorbet + Master Tuning Crystal)
Pistol Auto: 9.9k
Pistol Skills off cooldown: 15.3k
Grenade Auto: 12.1k
Grenade all skills: 15.6k
Flamethrower Auto: 12.1k
Flamethrower + Napalm: 14.0k
Bomb all DPS skills: 13.7k
Next up, Revenant. Build is here, because Snowcrows isn't hosting power rev for some reason right now.
Herald
Sword Auto (with 3 facets): 20.0k DPS
Sword auto (no upkeep): 18.6k
Sword auto (Shiro/Jalis with IO/VH): 26.6k
Staff auto (3 facets): 17.8k
Hammer Auto (3 facets): 13.3k
Hammer Auto + Hammer 2: 17.2k DPS
Condi Renegade (Red Lentil Sorbet + Toxic Focusing Crystal)
Mace Auto: 16.8k
All mace + axe DPS skills: 22.2k (Note: would be lower on small hitboxes)
Shortbow Auto: 12.7k
Shortbow all DPS skills: 23.0k
Mace auto + elite upkeep skills: 22.1k
Necromancer. To keep this more "sterile", I'm going to do a minion test alone, so I won't have to worry about minions when looking at all the weapons. If you want to know the combined damage, just add the two together.
Reaper
Minion Damage: 1.17k
Greatsword Auto: 17.9k
Greatsword all DPS skills: 20.7k
Axe Auto: 11.8k
Axe DPS skills: 15.2k
Dagger Auto: 16.6k
Camping Reaper's Shroud (Dagger out of Shroud): 22.3k
Shroud all DPS skills: 23.0k
Scourge
Scepter Auto: 12.7k
Scepter/Torch all DPS skills: 17.0k
Staff all skills: 6k
Mesmer
Mirage (Note: using old chaos/dueling build, I swear the build updated as I was writing this)
Axe Auto, no clones: 10.8k
Axe Auto, Clones: 21.0k
Scepter auto, Clones: 9.5k
Staff auto, clones: 15.3k
Chronomancer
Sword Auto, Clones: 13.8k
Sword + Sword all DPS skills: 20.7k
Greatsword Auto, Clones: 10.4k
Greatsword all DPS skills: 14.6k
Elementalist (don't have a condi set)
Weaver
Sword Fire Auto: 17.7k
Sword Water Auto: 7.9k
Sword Air Auto: 17.8k
Sword Earth Auto: 13.5k
Dagger Fire Auto: 14.8k
Dagger Water Auto: 8.1k
Dagger Air Auto: 16.8k
Dagger Earth Auto: 12.1k
Scepter Fire Auto: 9.2k
Scepter Fire DPS skills: 13.8k
Scepter Water Auto: 8.9k
Scepter Water DPS skills: 11.3k
Scepter Air Auto: 9.6k
Scepter Air DPS skills: 12.2k
Scepter Earth Auto: 4.6k
Scepter Earth DPS Skills: 5.2k
Staff Fire Auto: 11.1k
Staff Fire + Lava Font: 16.3k
Staff Water DPS skills: 5.6k
Staff Air Auto: 7.9k
Staff Earth Auto: 5.6k
Staff Earth + Eruption Auto: 7.9k
Tempest
Dagger Air Auto + Air Overload (Fresh Air): 18.9k
Guardian:
Firebrand Griever
Axe Auto: 17.5k
Axe all DPS skills:17.8k
Scepter auto + scepter 2: 15.3k
Dragonhunter
Greatsword Auto: 18.2k
Greatsword all DPS skills: 24k
Sword Auto: 17.0k
Sword all DPS skills 20.4k
Scepter DPS skills: 21.6k
Mace Auto: 13.5k
Mace all DPS: 16.0k
Hammer Auto: 19.2k
Hammer All DPS: 20.9k
Longbow Auto: 12.8k
Longbow all DPS: 18.0k
Thief
Daredevil
Staff Auto: 25.2k
Staff 2 Spam: 28.7k
Condi
Dagger Auto: 14.1k
Death Blossom Spam:14.7k
Deadeye
Pistol Auto: 15.8k
Pistol Unload spam: 22.4k
Shortbow Auto: 13.0k
Rifle Auto: 22.4k
Dagger Auto: 25.5k
Sword Auto: 25.9k
The unfortunate thing about all of these weapon sets and benchmarks is that condition builds suffer the most from disparate performance between weapons and utilities/profession mechanics. In all of the condi builds, less than half of the damage comes from auto attacks. Right now, Power Thief sits exactly where I would want most classes to sit: a solid 20k-25k DPS baseline, with 30k+ DPS with good rotations/skills. Of course, ranged weapons should sit 5k lower than the power than the melee weapons, to encourage people to melee for more damage. But, some of these sub 15k damage sets shouldn't exist IMO. I'd rather have less burst from utilities/profession skills and better weapon damage than the current system, because the current system is idiot-prone.
"Self awareness is knowing when you're sitting at the throne of ignorance." --Leo G.
I get where you're going with this post but unfortunately in the overall game, people dont even have zerker gear to reach these baselines. Not only that, but I've seen players who struggle with targeting and end up shooting their longbow arrows into the ground because they don't have anything targeted. I'd be curious to see what these numbers are using soldiers gear with no buffs look like as that would be the true dps floor.
We already know the benchmark for the infinitely incompetent. It's zero.
"Self awareness is knowing when you're sitting at the throne of ignorance." --Leo G.
I can see how arcdps has its value, but honestly, i don't think its needed anymore, raid bosses go down as long as you understand the mechs and wear the correct stats.
you dont even need ascended armor. so it seems to me its only there to spy on each others dps and provide a little toxicity.
biggest problem however is how it keeps crashing on people who didn't update it. I'm personally sick of wasting time in raids because of someone crashing 3 times in a row.
Nah, the "boss is dead" feedback the game provides is too little for me. I like to compare with others. As said before, my reward are high % raidar logs. If you would take that away, I'd rather not play. Is it toxic if someone does significantly less dps then others and you point that out, I wouldn't say that. Wearing the right stats Is already to hard for some people in raids aswell. And what happens when there is a new wing released? Or for new players that do not have all the bosses on farm status?
This doesn't exactly apply to the topic of dps meters, because in order to be kicked from the group (as is the topic) you must do less, close or equal damage to a support spec. All dps specs do more damage than support specs even when only auto-attacking. Which is why a player that is doing such low dps MUST be doing something incredibly wrong. Which is why they are kicked in the first place. A dps build doesn't do such low dps by missing a rotation or two, they reach it by being afk half the fight, or by using Nomads gear. Which, again, is why they are kicked.
For reference, I got this:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/9d86co/sc_updated_benchmarks_2808_balance_patch/
It's older but I can't see on the snowcrows website the dps of Druid and Chrono.
The dps of a support build is at maximum 15k on the golem, which can be reached auto-attacking in lots of your tests, while it is more than easily reached if you press a couple more easily available buttons. Why not use skills 2 and 3 on weapons that it helps with dps, like Scourge Scepter? Or Weaver Sword? Are players so incompetent that they can't press 123 on their keyboards? Also, not using profession mechanics is also questionable when they provide a great increase in dps. A "proper" baseline, is every skills available to you to be off cooldown (unless it's not a damage skill), and not counting skills on second weapon set and extra skills like conjures and kits. Any player has the ability to press the rest of the buttons without the need to remember cooldowns (which is the problem with rotations) and if they do press their buttons, they can outdps the support specs just fine and not get kicked from any group.
I get your point about baseline damage but it has little to do with kicks due to dps meters.
Nothing you've said here is true.
1: The topic of DPS meters is transitively the topic of why people do low DPS. It is relevant. In fact, I'd argue it is the most important thing, because finding a practical way to resolve low player DPS is a far better solution than just shouting all the bads down for all the abuse you give them.
2: People will get kicked even when they're still doing more damage than the support toons. This benchmark for kicking that you've pulled out of nowhere is far from universal.
3: Look at the numbers. 48 out of the 95 rotations I tested have sub-16k numbers. By your own standard, half of the baseline DPS setups are at or below the failure rate. That number climbs depending on how liberal your use of the word "close" is.
4: There are several rotations that are incredibly punishing, where missing a single skill or miss-timing an attack can completely ruin your performance. Condi Scourge, Condi Renegade, Staff Weaver, Scepter Guardian, Condi Engineer, DPS and support Chronomancer,, and hell even Firebrand are all like this. That is just the professions I have first hand experience with. Who knows what trials and tribulations warriors and rangers all face.
5: People don't bring RNG builds into places like high end fractals. You don't just end up with a full ascended bad build. There are countless stories of people getting kicked even when using a 1:1 copy of a meta build, including my own.
6: The point of these tests is that things go wrong. Skills get interrupted directly or indirectly, or the skills miss, or the DPS window hits an awkward time, or the enemy moves, or there's lag, or an input gets eaten, or someoen's finger's fumble, or something IRL distracts, or RNG gets in the way. Whenever all of that stuff happens, we revert to the baseline, so if the baseline is low then the default performance of a player is set to terrible.
"Self awareness is knowing when you're sitting at the throne of ignorance." --Leo G.
Take a look:
https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/781881/#Comment_781881
The low dps "problem" can be solved without dumbing down the rotation and the gameplay.
How much higher than support? 1k? 2k? To be honest even reading threads about dps meters nobody complained that they got kicked when they did "just 2k dps lower than the top".
Because the "rotations" you used aren't rotations. If you used actual rotations (usage of skills instead of auto-attacking alone) your numbers wouldn't be so low.
Missing a single skill or miss-timing an attack won't get you kicked as the dps loss isn't as noticeable.
1:1 copy of a meta build doesn't make you proficient in playing said build.
Good. This kind of baseline is expected to be terrible because you aren't using any of your available options. And those "things that go wrong" you can press 2 or 3 instead of 1 when things go wrong. There is no need to revert to your auto-attack in ANY situation imaginable.
Edit: Also, keep in mind that the 15k is from top raiding players playing the build and only focusing on dps. In ACTUAL gameplay the Druid and support Chronomancer will do much less damage as they have a completely different objective/role in the fights. Which means, in most situations just auto-attacking as a dps build, will give you more dps than those supports. Which also means, if someone doesn't do more (WAY more) it means they are doing something fundamentally wrong.
Nobody mention about a Support spec not actually doing enough supporting and focusing on damage instead
. That's a joke, but actually might be valid in itself. If you kick a DPS because they are lower than someone in the party doing support, when the support's DPS is arbitrarily high, then nothing says the support isn't focusing on what his role is, no ?
True, but given that boon up-time is a thing, this is easy checked.
Most people will complain about a dps being far behind other dps which is the first thing which will get noticed(and again, if you are 2-5k below the top dps no one will care. Most people who get kicked are simply terrible) .
Supports doing a poor job will be noticed the moment the entire raid performs poorly. Trust me, support players get called out often enough, especially healers who have to cover for people's insanely bad positioning some times.
It's often just that inexperienced players first focus on pure damage numbers.
Did T4 yesterday as a harrier druid.
One Dragon Hunter in the party was doing 2-3K dps constantly, most times being actually below my dps. Around 22K AP
One Necro variant (forgot exact which spec) was doing the same, but with some spikes to 6K dps. Over 10K AP
One Dragon Hunter had a constant ~15K+ dps, effectively caring the whole party's dps.
When I asked if any of them were running a healing build they laughed like i was telling a good joke. Something like: Can't you see I am a Dragon Hunter? We are not healers!"
The T4 run took close to 1 hour & 30 minutes. Don't ask me how I just did not leave the party cause I do not know the answer.
I guess they were for banning ArcDPS also/totally against it/I play how I want even tho it is your lost time also.
Letting people see their cooldowns isn't going to solve the problem. Mistakes are still punishing, and overly complicated rotations still make mistakes way too easy.
Well, that's up to the whims of the kicker, now isn't it?
At least it is good to know that you have not been paying attention.
It does and it is.
Nice red herring. Pay attention now.
Considering that the convoluted rotations make doing well at this game needlessly complicated and punishing, and that this disparity between performances is breeding mass hostility, paranoia, and discontent among the player base at large, I would say that all this is not "good" at all. It's quite bad, actually. There are a lot of other games where it is far easier to have good performance while doing far less. If we raise the baseline performance for a lot of these classes, everybody wins. All of the elitists get to feel smug because the top DPS rotations are still a Rube Goldberg mess, and the casual players get to feel better because they do better and face less hostility.
All ships rise and fall with the tide, so that is all irrelevant.
Why are you here? Seriously. You aren't paying attention. You're just saying whatever comes to mind, regardless of context, just to be defiant and contrarian. What good comes from you being here?
"Self awareness is knowing when you're sitting at the throne of ignorance." --Leo G.
It's gonna reduce the effect rotations have on your dps. It won't solve the problem completely unless the players themselves try to get better. All without making all builds work like Daredevil/Deadeye. Funny thing is, even Daredevils/Deadeyes do low dps and get kicked, even though their "rotation" is brain dead.
I suggest you take account on how many daredevils and deadeyes get kicked. Or their rotation is also punishing and complicated?
Well I could retype it in a simpler way for you to understand.
Your so called rotations are doing ~15k dps on average. A well played support role that focuses exclusively on dps on a stationary golem does 15k. It stands to reason that in actual combat that same support would deal far less damage. Meaning even your silly rotations can outdps a support, meaning they shouldn't be kicked. But they are, because those getting kicked aren't even following your own rotations.
All these people need to go to WvW where DPS rotations don't mean squat. 10-16k on lords is considered excellent.
[VII] Spectre Legacy - Declared Best NA Guild by Grimaldi
Crystal Desert Consul Member and President of Scrubs; declared most toxic server NA by Z E Y
[VII] wants fights! Please bring your pug rangers for UD progress.
The only problem I have with arcdps is that it is a 3rd party program. I don't want to deal with the hassle of updating/troubleshooting bugs after every patch. If a dps meter was offered from Anet, I would use it all the time.
This kinda stuff was happening WAY before damage meters.
They will complain if a player who plays as dps role do less dps than support
In my experience, being clear about your expectations is the key to avoiding these issues. If you don't use a DPS meter, you should probably not assume that you're a strong performer (Seriously, how could you know?) and you should avoid joining groups with strict requirements. By the same token, if you're forming your own group you can save yourself a lot of headaches by indicating that you aren't looking for speed demons and control freaks. Group with the type of people who play the way you play and you'll avoid most of these issues. That goes for everyone, whether they use a DPS meter or not.
You can always join a friendly guild who will not act elitist towards you, but supportive instead. If you are looking for one, feel free to contact me. Send me mail in game (NA). For the most part, in the evenings (US EST evenings), you will not have a problem finding a group in the guild for dungeons or fractals (and we are setting up raid training groups too).
I would actually argue that for the vast majority of players, it's not that they do not realize this.. it's simply that they do not care.
I speak as one of those players who does not care about min/maxing DPS as playing to perfect rotations and hiting DPS benchmarks is absoutely not fun in my opinion.
The second playing a game becomes a chore for me it stops being fun.. and if i'm not having fun then there's no point in even playing.
Agreed on the disparity but not on the insult, min/maxing DPS isn't the only way to measure a players skill and brand them good or not.
Hell I could easily argue that a so called casual scrub that survives a world boss without being downed is a far better player than all those DPS players who get wiped out 2-3 times during the fight.
DPS is just that.. sure you are putting out more damage but that does not make you better than everyone else.. specially if your dead or dying half the time which many DPSers usually are in good chunks of the open world content.
End of the day it's irrelevant.. everyone has a right to play what they want and how they enjoy the game.. and nobody has the right to criticize them for not playing to other peoples expectations.. specially in content that can easily be beaten with any team regardless of experience and build effectiveness.
T3-4 Fractals and Raids are quite literally the only content where this stuff actually matters.. and even there it doesn't matter as much as most people think.. not unless you're going for record times.
I disagree with that statement.. this game was fundamentally designed to be inclusive to all, That's primarily why it was designed unlike most MMO's to be a solo based game.
If anything the Hardcore DPS side of this game is the foreign element that doesn't belong.
You say the casual players should avoid the harder content yet there is far more of an argument to say the minority of players who enjoy the harder content should go an play other MMO's that cater more to their kind of interests and playstyles.
I'm not actually saying that should be the case though before anyone takes that literally.. as I said the game was designed to be inclusive to all and i'm not personally against harder content either.
I enjoy challenging myself at times and testing the limitations of what my builds can handle in the open world.. but I can't stand other people judging me or others based on the numbers our avatars produce on their 3rd party software.
I don't play to other peoples expectations and I don't care if they are doing more or less damage than I am.
I'd rather play with a group of newbies who don't know what they are doing that put up with some elitist whining in the chat and demanding the rest of us kick another player because they will make the content take longer..
That is not an issue in my book or most other players either.
Can't believe this thread is still not closed tbh. We had a clear statement from anet, we have a good status quo, why are we still here?
cough cough build saving cough
Never gonna happend like its not hard to just put stuff on build saving saves you max 2mins
Isn’t this topic filled with subjective opinions?
In the end I think OP just have to find fellow players with the same view.
I see why people might not want 3rd party add-ons, but man some of them brings good QoL.
ArcDps can help you see if the “new” maybe even out of meta build can perform the way you want it to.
I mean one can kill with a hammer, but it is still meant to hit the nails rather than the heads.
And as people state, some people like using it for efficiency, why ruin it for them?
There is no “victims” here, as I am sure that no real crime was commited, at most a few broken rules.
If you wanna raid, join a raid guild, training-train or w/e.
And if you want toxicity, try a few matches in league spvp
I will never understand this discussion at all. If there is no DPS tracking tool other requirements or reasons to kick someone will takes it place. Things like gear ping, ap or the good old class hate. Toxic people will still be toxic. Communitys with the meta way to play mindset will also be the same. Also i don't understand what's the problem with joining/setting up groups witch fits to the personal playstyle. I play both ways ''casual'' with fun builds but also ''elitist'' get the job done as fast as possible with meta groups. I can't remember the last time i get kicked out of a pug in case of my dps.
I think that the difference between these things and the DPS tool is that the DPS tool is something that a player cannot opt out of. If a group asks for gear ping, a player has the option to not ping it; granted, they'll probably get kicked anyway but that's not the point here in my understanding.
I am a very casual player.
Very.
Casual.
If we ban ArcDps, we need a way to know if a player is bad - therefore, a stat sheet and deaths to raid bosses, mechanical failures would be required so we could weed people out and not waste time.
ArcDps serves as a way to indicate player skill, mostly, if they have high dps, they obvious spent time learning their rotation in a raid environment.
Sure it is. But not having their dps visible (assuming they would pass the more stringent requirements that would follow) would not increase the overall group dps. If it would happen to be too low (and it would be), then someone would end up getting judned for it. The problem? If we can't actually see player dps, then someone else might get erroneously judged instead. And i bet that the player that didn't want the dps meters would be among the first to throw the stone.
The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.
I'm sure that while most players who don't use a DPS meter are aware they aren't the best of the best, they are probably convinced that they aren't that bad. In the absence of information, they assume that they belong in any group and that people who take issue with their performance are just nitpicking over a meaningless number.
It's fine if you don't care about these things. Play open world. Form your own group for fractals/raids. But don't expect that you have a right to play poorly and cause problems for a group full of players that do care about these things. That's just asking for conflict.
I do run a DPS meter, but I'm not big into fractals and I don't optimize for them. For that reason I always indicate the sort of group I'm looking for (e.g. "chill run", "new players welcome", etc.) to avoid issues. I'd rather accept a slower pace than listen to players griping at each other, dropping group, or worse voting to kick each other. I'm in it for fun and that sort of thing kills it for me.
Declaring the discussion over doesn't actually end the debate. People still aren't happy with DPS meters, and they probably never will be.
"Self awareness is knowing when you're sitting at the throne of ignorance." --Leo G.
Many games don't explicitly allow damage meters. Games like FF14 doesn't have them either. Granted they do exist for that game too. However, it is a bannable offense to bring it up in game. Even as much as talking about it is grounds for a suspension.
GW2 needs a firmer hand on damage meters. Any references to damage, or numbers should be bannable. I don't do dungeons in this game because of that very reason. I'm not the best player in the world, still pretty unfamiliar with most of the game's intricate designs. I can't wear beserker gear as I'm not good enough at dodging and avoiding things and need the extra health padding. I'm not good enough with swapping weapons around and have a hard time with combo finishers.
Veteran players seem to always forget just how much of a steep learning curve the game can have. And some people just don't want to do speed runs of everything. I HATE SPEED RUNS. I really despise how the dungeon community is here. Everyone wants to clear it in world record setting speed. I would rather take some extra time and do the dungeon at a slower pace. We still finish it, so why is it a big deal?!
Finishing fast is a matter of convenience. People have lives, plus other things they want to do in the game. Taking an hour to do content they've done in twenty minutes means forty minutes opportunity cost. This could mean the player(s) impacted will have to choose between leaving out something else they wanted to do in game, or take that time from some out-of-game thing -- like family time, or sleep. As people get older, have families or other obligations, time becomes scarcer.
Being able to join a group and complete content -- without having to seek out other people who don't care whether a player is running something that is not optimal -- is a matter of convenience. "Anything should be OK" players could take the time to make friends, join a guild, look for, or post an "any build is OK" run. Some of them choose their own convenience over the convenience of the other players.
Why is the time of the "anything should be OK" player more valuable than other players' time? Why should players who want a fast run obligated to fulfill your wish for convenience at the expense of their own? I get that some think that other players should accommodate other peoples' needs. Shouldn't that work both ways? Shouldn't "anything goes" players also be obligated to consider others?
Don't get me wrong. I don't care for the optimum play attitude, either. However, I just don't join those people. I don't care for their attitude -- they don't care for my play preferences. The only sane option is for us to not play together.
Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it. -- Santayana
And that is exactly why I do not do a single instanced dungeon of any sorts in this game. The game community is 100% speed runners. That's all there is. Nobody else plays the game or does dungeons. So there is no sense in me even bothers to do a dungeon when I've never done any of them.
It's really not.
I think you'd find quite a lot do both/either.
If you mean the grapes are sour because the fox can't reach them, then sure.
But if you're interested in learning, there are a large number of newbie-friendly guilds out there. Post a request in the Players Helping Players subforum and mention whether you're NA or EU.
"Face the facts. Then act on them. It's ...the only doctrine I have to offer you, & it's harder than you'd think, because I swear humans seem hardwired to do anything but. Face the facts. Don't pray, don't wish, ...FACE THE FACTS. THEN act." — Quellcrist Falconer
If people here would actually do their job and close the thread, then the debate would be over. DPS Meters are allowed, and everyone knows they aren't getting banned. Discussing is useless. We have an official statement, yet some discuss as if that would not exist. We should move on.
They aren't getting banned... until the devs change their mind. Policy isn't incontrovertible.
"Self awareness is knowing when you're sitting at the throne of ignorance." --Leo G.
Anything 3rd party program that exists in the game that allows players to criticize or basically exclude other players from content shouldn't exist in the first place. We are told that we are to play how we want to play, and I'm pretty sure nowhere in their rules does it state players are allowed to tell or dictate how other players are to play. We can't change players toxic behavior (at least not that easily), but you can take away their ammo by not allowing such programs into the game.
This was one of the issues prior to the existence of raids; many were saying it was going to create far more toxic behavior than we had previously. Also, if dps meters then became prominent in the game due to raids, it was going to exacerbate the problem, and look where we are today. Basically; "We told you so", is in order here.
As others have stated, dps meters are basically a moot. If you know the mechanics of the boss; they're going down, you don't need dps meters. They seem to be providing a more negative effect than positive one. It's not one players job to tell another player how to play, nor is it their job to provide advice or feedback if it's not warranted. If the player asks, then give it, if they don't ask, say nothing. Don't tell them their dps is low; instead take like minded players from your group, leave the group, and start another one with like-minded players, and restart the raid.
Sure, dps meters aren't banned now, but don't be so quick to assume they'll stay that way. If players can't learn to play nicely, Anet can & will ban them at will (including the accounts that continue to use them).
It boils down to this: DPS meters are not getting banned and even if they were, it would be even harder to do raids with "elite groups" because they would only be taking builds/classes they choose and if they don't like you for ANY reason, you are gone. It's been mentioned MANY times in this thread. The toxicity was there BEFORE the meters existed. Anyone remember the days of Korean MMO dominance over a decade ago? I do. I still remember in Aion, before they released DPS meters for it, people would get kicked if they weren't "in the know" for DPS and the such. It was SO EASY to get kicked.
Whether you like it or not, the toxicity will be there. DPS meters, being here or not, will not change that and never, I repeat and this is a proven FACT, never change.
I'm guessing you're forgetting the No Necro, No Ranger, 10k AP., 1 ele, 1 gaurd 3 warr... meta? DPS meters don't create toxicity. And actually are more fair/balanced now.
So long as you carry your weight.
It hasn't made it worse tho. In fact all classes are accepted to raids ..again so long as you carry your weight.
You've already said this in a different way.
Then, don't play with those players? You're free to create your own causal guild or party.
What if they asked for like minded players to join their lfg, don't they have the right to kick those who aren't?
Players didn't play nice before them.
It's not new for players to want to play with only a certain group.
Health bars are a meter that lets us see how much unnecessary damage people take. You can be kicked out of a group for taking too much damage, so let's stop people from talking about health and remove the ability to see health bars. Seeing health bars breeds toxicity.
If we can see other peoples' player models, then we can see when they're standing in bad stuff, when they're running too far ahead, if they're hitting the wrong thing, etc. Let's stop people from talking about player location, and remove their ability to see other peoples' player models so we can't give them advice when they're standing in bad stuff, among other things. People can't be toxic to others if they can't see their health bars or their player models.
You know, people in general are toxic. Let's remove chat entirely because interaction with other players is where toxicity comes from. Additionally, let's just remove the game, because without Guild Wars 2 in the picture, players cannot be toxic within it.
Now I hope you realize just how asinine the sentence I quoted from you is. It isn't damage, it isn't a meter, it isn't visibility of anything that breeds toxicity. People are jerks, and they will always be jerks. These jerks will always find something to complain about you. If it isn't damage, it's where you're standing, what you're hitting, or how much damage you're taking from mobs and mechanics, and oftentimes they'll just find a scapegoat (you) for their own shortcomings. There is NO way around this aside from reporting people who misbehave. Banning damage meters will do absolutely nothing to the common jerk's attitude and personality.
As long as raid encounters have enrage timers, damage meters and the ability to have a conversation about damage will always be in the game. That's why the ability to use meters was allowed in the first place. It is immensely helpful to see what builds and rotations work best to defeat encounters, and which ones don't.
I'm sorry you experienced that. That is terrible behavior.
That was my go to dungeon. I guided dozens and dozens if not hundreds of new players in that dungeon in story mode and in all explorable paths on my warrior and guardian. Many times the players were level 35-50. I was the only level 80 in the group. We were able to successfully complete the dungeon. It wasn't perfect every time but that's part of learning. And some runs were so smooth you wouldn't have guessed they were new.
I'm speechless your former team mates felt the need to kick a 5th player due to low dps. It's disgusting. I don't know what their LFG read but if it read "level 80s dps only". That can be open to interpretation. I may be level 80 using dps traits but wearing soldier gear. I found one AC group in LFG looking for "lvl 80 high dps meta build". It's just a dungeon....not a T4 fractal/CM/Raid. Dungeons are the intro of group instanced content. It's where players learn to work together in instanced content.
One decently geared experienced player can carry a group. Maybe the player didn't want to do that but if there is a second decently geared experienced player then the mobs and bosses should melt then. The only issue is having the other 3 players keep up.
technically correct, wrong in practice. there is a difference between a knife and an automatic weapon.
just want to point out that there weren't any chronos back then lol.
you don't know till you know, ya know.
With respect, damage meters are not your problem. Speed runs would exist with or without them and players who would give you a hard time now would still do so without a damage meter. They'd simply find another metric to base their judgments upon. Behaviors such as requiring perfect group comps and achievements would become more prevalent.
In any event, you have a way to exert some control over this issue yourself. Again, damage meters are not your problem. Your problem is the type of player you're grouping with. Take control of the situation! Form your own group and be specific about your expectations. Many players of all skill levels enjoy casual runs either to take it easy or just to lend a hand to players who might otherwise struggle. What you generally won't find are obsessive speed runners willing to join groups that explicitly state their intentions NOT to lead that type of run!
I'm personally a fan of the tags "chill run", "casual run", or "new players welcome". These are like a huge, blinking neon sign telling speed runners to run the other direction FAST!
Then why are you trying to dictate how other players play the game? If they want to speed run and obsess about DPS, who made you king that you deserve a spot in their raid?
DPS meters are a tool that many players want. Heck, I'm primarily a solo open world player. I get my enjoyment from soloing group events and champion/legendary bosses. I want DPS meters, too! They're a useful tool that many MMO players expect to have access to.