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Ban ArcDPS and any third party program


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You can always join a friendly guild who will not act elitist towards you, but supportive instead. If you are looking for one, feel free to contact me. Send me mail in game (NA). For the most part, in the evenings (US EST evenings), you will not have a problem finding a group in the guild for dungeons or fractals (and we are setting up raid training groups too).

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@"MMOStein.3872" said:A general PSA on Dps meters:

People who do not use meters, tend to not realize how unoptimized or poor their performance/rotations really are _(because they literally can't track or see their dps...).

I would actually argue that for the vast majority of players, it's not that they do not realize this.. it's simply that they do not care.I speak as one of those players who does not care about min/maxing DPS as playing to perfect rotations and hiting DPS benchmarks is absoutely not fun in my opinion.The second playing a game becomes a chore for me it stops being fun.. and if i'm not having fun then there's no point in even playing.

I love games with built in meters (like BnS for example) because it FORCES the average player to become a BETTER player on average, because they can't choose to hide their own performance from themselves and others. Games without any sort of dps tracking usually have the biggest disparity between casual "scrub tier dps" players that THINK they're good, and the actual min/max hardcore base that do the math and track their dps.

Agreed on the disparity but not on the insult, min/maxing DPS isn't the only way to measure a players skill and brand them good or not.Hell I could easily argue that a so called casual scrub that survives a world boss without being downed is a far better player than all those DPS players who get wiped out 2-3 times during the fight.DPS is just that.. sure you are putting out more damage but that does not make you better than everyone else.. specially if your dead or dying half the time which many DPSers usually are in good chunks of the open world content.End of the day it's irrelevant.. everyone has a right to play what they want and how they enjoy the game.. and nobody has the right to criticize them for not playing to other peoples expectations.. specially in content that can easily be beaten with any team regardless of experience and build effectiveness.T3-4 Fractals and Raids are quite literally the only content where this stuff actually matters.. and even there it doesn't matter as much as most people think.. not unless you're going for record times.

This type of playstyle environment simply isn't for everyone, and a lot of people who like MMOs don't realize this and blame every problem they face on "blind toxicity from elitists".

I disagree with that statement.. this game was fundamentally designed to be inclusive to all, That's primarily why it was designed unlike most MMO's to be a solo based game.If anything the Hardcore DPS side of this game is the foreign element that doesn't belong.You say the casual players should avoid the harder content yet there is far more of an argument to say the minority of players who enjoy the harder content should go an play other MMO's that cater more to their kind of interests and playstyles.

I'm not actually saying that should be the case though before anyone takes that literally.. as I said the game was designed to be inclusive to all and i'm not personally against harder content either.I enjoy challenging myself at times and testing the limitations of what my builds can handle in the open world.. but I can't stand other people judging me or others based on the numbers our avatars produce on their 3rd party software.I don't play to other peoples expectations and I don't care if they are doing more or less damage than I am.I'd rather play with a group of newbies who don't know what they are doing that put up with some elitist whining in the chat and demanding the rest of us kick another player because they will make the content take longer..That is not an issue in my book or most other players either.

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Isn’t this topic filled with subjective opinions?In the end I think OP just have to find fellow players with the same view.I see why people might not want 3rd party add-ons, but man some of them brings good QoL.ArcDps can help you see if the “new” maybe even out of meta build can perform the way you want it to.I mean one can kill with a hammer, but it is still meant to hit the nails rather than the heads.

And as people state, some people like using it for efficiency, why ruin it for them?

There is no “victims” here, as I am sure that no real crime was commited, at most a few broken rules.If you wanna raid, join a raid guild, training-train or w/e.And if you want toxicity, try a few matches in league spvp ;)

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I will never understand this discussion at all. If there is no DPS tracking tool other requirements or reasons to kick someone will takes it place. Things like gear ping, ap or the good old class hate. Toxic people will still be toxic. Communitys with the meta way to play mindset will also be the same. Also i don't understand what's the problem with joining/setting up groups witch fits to the personal playstyle. I play both ways ''casual'' with fun builds but also ''elitist'' get the job done as fast as possible with meta groups. I can't remember the last time i get kicked out of a pug in case of my dps.

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@SunTzu.4513 said:I will never understand this discussion at all. If there is no DPS tracking tool other requirements or reasons to kick someone will takes it place. Things like gear ping, ap or the good old class hate.I think that the difference between these things and the DPS tool is that the DPS tool is something that a player cannot opt out of. If a group asks for gear ping, a player has the option to not ping it; granted, they'll probably get kicked anyway but that's not the point here in my understanding.

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If we ban ArcDps, we need a way to know if a player is bad - therefore, a stat sheet and deaths to raid bosses, mechanical failures would be required so we could weed people out and not waste time.

ArcDps serves as a way to indicate player skill, mostly, if they have high dps, they obvious spent time learning their rotation in a raid environment.

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@kharmin.7683 said:

@SunTzu.4513 said:I will never understand this discussion at all. If there is no DPS tracking tool other requirements or reasons to kick someone will takes it place. Things like gear ping, ap or the good old class hate.I think that the difference between these things and the DPS tool is that the DPS tool is something that a player cannot opt out of. If a group asks for gear ping, a player has the option to not ping it; granted, they'll probably get kicked anyway but that's not the point here in my understanding.

Sure it is. But not having their dps visible (assuming they would pass the more stringent requirements that would follow) would not increase the overall group dps. If it would happen to be too low (and it
would
be), then someone would end up getting judned for it. The problem? If we can't actually see player dps, then someone
else
might get erroneously judged instead. And i bet that the player that didn't want the dps meters would be among the first to throw the stone.

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@"Teratus.2859" said:

I would actually argue that for the vast majority of players, it's not that they do not realize this.. it's simply that they do not care.I speak as one of those players who does not care about min/maxing DPS as playing to perfect rotations and hiting DPS benchmarks is absoutely not fun in my opinion.The second playing a game becomes a chore for me it stops being fun.. and if i'm not having fun then there's no point in even playing.

I'm sure that while most players who don't use a DPS meter are aware they aren't the best of the best, they are probably convinced that they aren't that bad. In the absence of information, they assume that they belong in any group and that people who take issue with their performance are just nitpicking over a meaningless number.

It's fine if you don't care about these things. Play open world. Form your own group for fractals/raids. But don't expect that you have a right to play poorly and cause problems for a group full of players that do care about these things. That's just asking for conflict.

I do run a DPS meter, but I'm not big into fractals and I don't optimize for them. For that reason I always indicate the sort of group I'm looking for (e.g. "chill run", "new players welcome", etc.) to avoid issues. I'd rather accept a slower pace than listen to players griping at each other, dropping group, or worse voting to kick each other. I'm in it for fun and that sort of thing kills it for me.

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Many games don't explicitly allow damage meters. Games like FF14 doesn't have them either. Granted they do exist for that game too. However, it is a bannable offense to bring it up in game. Even as much as talking about it is grounds for a suspension.

GW2 needs a firmer hand on damage meters. Any references to damage, or numbers should be bannable. I don't do dungeons in this game because of that very reason. I'm not the best player in the world, still pretty unfamiliar with most of the game's intricate designs. I can't wear beserker gear as I'm not good enough at dodging and avoiding things and need the extra health padding. I'm not good enough with swapping weapons around and have a hard time with combo finishers.

Veteran players seem to always forget just how much of a steep learning curve the game can have. And some people just don't want to do speed runs of everything. I HATE SPEED RUNS. I really despise how the dungeon community is here. Everyone wants to clear it in world record setting speed. I would rather take some extra time and do the dungeon at a slower pace. We still finish it, so why is it a big deal?!

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@"heartless.9014" said:Many games don't explicitly allow damage meters. Games like FF14 doesn't have them either. Granted they do exist for that game too. However, it is a bannable offense to bring it up in game. Even as much as talking about it is grounds for a suspension.

GW2 needs a firmer hand on damage meters. Any references to damage, or numbers should be bannable. I don't do dungeons in this game because of that very reason. I'm not the best player in the world, still pretty unfamiliar with most of the game's intricate designs. I can't wear beserker gear as I'm not good enough at dodging and avoiding things and need the extra health padding. I'm not good enough with swapping weapons around and have a hard time with combo finishers.

Veteran players seem to always forget just how much of a steep learning curve the game can have. And some people just don't want to do speed runs of everything. I HATE SPEED RUNS. I really despise how the dungeon community is here. Everyone wants to clear it in world record setting speed. I would rather take some extra time and do the dungeon at a slower pace. We still finish it, so why is it a big deal?!

Finishing fast is a matter of convenience. People have lives, plus other things they want to do in the game. Taking an hour to do content they've done in twenty minutes means forty minutes opportunity cost. This could mean the player(s) impacted will have to choose between leaving out something else they wanted to do in game, or take that time from some out-of-game thing -- like family time, or sleep. As people get older, have families or other obligations, time becomes scarcer.

Being able to join a group and complete content -- without having to seek out other people who don't care whether a player is running something that is not optimal -- is a matter of convenience. "Anything should be OK" players could take the time to make friends, join a guild, look for, or post an "any build is OK" run. Some of them choose their own convenience over the convenience of the other players.

Why is the time of the "anything should be OK" player more valuable than other players' time? Why should players who want a fast run obligated to fulfill your wish for convenience at the expense of their own? I get that some think that other players should accommodate other peoples' needs. Shouldn't that work both ways? Shouldn't "anything goes" players also be obligated to consider others?

Don't get me wrong. I don't care for the optimum play attitude, either. However, I just don't join those people. I don't care for their attitude -- they don't care for my play preferences. The only sane option is for us to not play together.

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@IndigoSundown.5419 said:

@"heartless.9014" said:Many games don't explicitly allow damage meters. Games like FF14 doesn't have them either. Granted they do exist for that game too. However, it is a bannable offense to bring it up in game. Even as much as talking about it is grounds for a suspension.

GW2 needs a firmer hand on damage meters. Any references to damage, or numbers should be bannable. I don't do dungeons in this game because of that very reason. I'm not the best player in the world, still pretty unfamiliar with most of the game's intricate designs. I can't wear beserker gear as I'm not good enough at dodging and avoiding things and need the extra health padding. I'm not good enough with swapping weapons around and have a hard time with combo finishers.

Veteran players seem to always forget just how much of a steep learning curve the game can have. And some people just don't want to do speed runs of everything. I HATE SPEED RUNS. I really despise how the dungeon community is here. Everyone wants to clear it in world record setting speed. I would rather take some extra time and do the dungeon at a slower pace. We still finish it, so why is it a big deal?!

Finishing fast
is a matter of convenience
. People have lives, plus other things they want to do in the game. Taking an hour to do content they've done in twenty minutes means forty minutes opportunity cost. This could mean the player(s) impacted will have to choose between leaving out something else they wanted to do in game, or take that time from some out-of-game thing -- like family time, or sleep. As people get older, have families or other obligations, time becomes scarcer.

Being able to join a group and complete content -- without having to seek out other people who don't care whether a player is running something that is not optimal --
is a matter of convenience
. "Anything should be OK" players could take the time to make friends, join a guild, look for, or post an "any build is OK" run. Some of them choose their own convenience over the convenience of the other players.

Why is the time of the "anything should be OK" player more valuable than other players' time? Why should players who want a fast run obligated to fulfill your wish for convenience at the expense of their own? I get that some think that other players should accommodate other peoples' needs. Shouldn't that work both ways? Shouldn't "anything goes" players also be obligated to consider others?

Don't get me wrong. I don't care for the optimum play attitude, either. However, I just don't join those people. I don't care for their attitude -- they don't care for my play preferences. The only sane option is for us to not play together.

And that is exactly why I do not do a single instanced dungeon of any sorts in this game. The game community is 100% speed runners. That's all there is. Nobody else plays the game or does dungeons. So there is no sense in me even bothers to do a dungeon when I've never done any of them.

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@heartless.9014 said:The game community is 100% speed runners.It's really not.

Nobody else plays the game or does dungeons.I think you'd find quite a lot do both/either.

So there is no sense in me even bothers to do a dungeon when I've never done any of them.If you mean the grapes are sour because the fox can't reach them, then sure.But if you're interested in learning, there are a large number of newbie-friendly guilds out there. Post a request in the Players Helping Players subforum and mention whether you're NA or EU.

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@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

@rabenpriester.7129 said:Can't believe this thread is still not closed tbh. We had a clear statement from anet, we have a good status quo, why are we still here?

Declaring the discussion over doesn't actually end the debate. People still aren't happy with DPS meters, and they probably never will be.

If people here would actually do their job and close the thread, then the debate would be over. DPS Meters are allowed, and everyone knows they aren't getting banned. Discussing is useless. We have an official statement, yet some discuss as if that would not exist. We should move on.

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@rabenpriester.7129 said:

@rabenpriester.7129 said:Can't believe this thread is still not closed tbh. We had a clear statement from anet, we have a good status quo, why are we still here?

Declaring the discussion over doesn't actually end the debate. People still aren't happy with DPS meters, and they probably never will be.

If people here would actually do their job and close the thread, then the debate would be over. DPS Meters are allowed, and everyone knows they aren't getting banned. Discussing is useless. We have an official statement, yet some discuss as if that would not exist. We should move on.

They aren't getting banned... until the devs change their mind. Policy isn't incontrovertible.

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Anything 3rd party program that exists in the game that allows players to criticize or basically exclude other players from content shouldn't exist in the first place. We are told that we are to play how we want to play, and I'm pretty sure nowhere in their rules does it state players are allowed to tell or dictate how other players are to play. We can't change players toxic behavior (at least not that easily), but you can take away their ammo by not allowing such programs into the game.

This was one of the issues prior to the existence of raids; many were saying it was going to create far more toxic behavior than we had previously. Also, if dps meters then became prominent in the game due to raids, it was going to exacerbate the problem, and look where we are today. Basically; "We told you so", is in order here.

As others have stated, dps meters are basically a moot. If you know the mechanics of the boss; they're going down, you don't need dps meters. They seem to be providing a more negative effect than positive one. It's not one players job to tell another player how to play, nor is it their job to provide advice or feedback if it's not warranted. If the player asks, then give it, if they don't ask, say nothing. Don't tell them their dps is low; instead take like minded players from your group, leave the group, and start another one with like-minded players, and restart the raid.

Sure, dps meters aren't banned now, but don't be so quick to assume they'll stay that way. If players can't learn to play nicely, Anet can & will ban them at will (including the accounts that continue to use them).

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It boils down to this: DPS meters are not getting banned and even if they were, it would be even harder to do raids with "elite groups" because they would only be taking builds/classes they choose and if they don't like you for ANY reason, you are gone. It's been mentioned MANY times in this thread. The toxicity was there BEFORE the meters existed. Anyone remember the days of Korean MMO dominance over a decade ago? I do. I still remember in Aion, before they released DPS meters for it, people would get kicked if they weren't "in the know" for DPS and the such. It was SO EASY to get kicked.

Whether you like it or not, the toxicity will be there. DPS meters, being here or not, will not change that and never, I repeat and this is a proven FACT, never change.

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@"DeadlySynz.3471" said:Anything 3rd party program that exists in the game that allows players to criticize or basically exclude other players from content shouldn't exist in the first place. We are told that we are to play how we want to play, and I'm pretty sure nowhere in their rules does it state players are allowed to tell or dictate how other players are to play. We can't change players toxic behavior (at least not that easily), but you can take away their ammo by not allowing such programs into the game.

I'm guessing you're forgetting the No Necro, No Ranger, 10k AP., 1 ele, 1 gaurd 3 warr... meta? DPS meters don't create toxicity. And actually are more fair/balanced now.So long as you carry your weight.

This was one of the issues prior to the existence of raids; many were saying it was going to create far more toxic behavior than we had previously. Also, if dps meters then became prominent in the game due to raids, it was going to exacerbate the problem, and look where we are today. Basically; "We told you so", is in order here.

It hasn't made it worse tho. In fact all classes are accepted to raids ..again so long as you carry your weight.

They seem to be providing a more negative effect than positive one.

You've already said this in a different way.

It's not one players job to tell another player how to play, nor is it their job to provide advice or feedback if it's not warranted.

Then, don't play with those players? You're free to create your own causal guild or party.

If the player asks, then give it, if they don't ask, say nothing. Don't tell them their dps is low; instead take like minded players from your group, leave the group, and start another one with like-minded players, and restart the raid.

What if they asked for like minded players to join their lfg, don't they have the right to kick those who aren't?

Sure, dps meters aren't banned now, but don't be so quick to assume they'll stay that way. If players can't learn to play nicely, Anet can & will ban them at will (including the accounts that continue to use them).

Players didn't play nice before them.It's not new for players to want to play with only a certain group.

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@heartless.9014 said:Any references to damage, or numbers should be bannable.Health bars are a meter that lets us see how much unnecessary damage people take. You can be kicked out of a group for taking too much damage, so let's stop people from talking about health and remove the ability to see health bars. Seeing health bars breeds toxicity.

If we can see other peoples' player models, then we can see when they're standing in bad stuff, when they're running too far ahead, if they're hitting the wrong thing, etc. Let's stop people from talking about player location, and remove their ability to see other peoples' player models so we can't give them advice when they're standing in bad stuff, among other things. People can't be toxic to others if they can't see their health bars or their player models.

You know, people in general are toxic. Let's remove chat entirely because interaction with other players is where toxicity comes from. Additionally, let's just remove the game, because without Guild Wars 2 in the picture, players cannot be toxic within it.

Now I hope you realize just how asinine the sentence I quoted from you is. It isn't damage, it isn't a meter, it isn't visibility of anything that breeds toxicity. People are jerks, and they will always be jerks. These jerks will always find something to complain about you. If it isn't damage, it's where you're standing, what you're hitting, or how much damage you're taking from mobs and mechanics, and oftentimes they'll just find a scapegoat (you) for their own shortcomings. There is NO way around this aside from reporting people who misbehave. Banning damage meters will do absolutely nothing to the common jerk's attitude and personality.

As long as raid encounters have enrage timers, damage meters and the ability to have a conversation about damage will always be in the game. That's why the ability to use meters was allowed in the first place. It is immensely helpful to see what builds and rotations work best to defeat encounters, and which ones don't.

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@"Applejuice.4083" said:Had two instances today, before anyone comments on gear, my guild and rotation comes from snowcrows to the T, including food. Went in for nostalgia on a dungeon run and got kicked towards the end of AC P2 because "Dps sucks", really? On AC P2? , 2nd instance was at VG was hitting 30-40k+ but it was "too low" and people started to get boot left and right. How do you expect people to learn and stay end game, when its filled with elitism? Ban ArcDPS please. It breeds toxic people.

I'm sorry you experienced that. That is terrible behavior.

That was my go to dungeon. I guided dozens and dozens if not hundreds of new players in that dungeon in story mode and in all explorable paths on my warrior and guardian. Many times the players were level 35-50. I was the only level 80 in the group. We were able to successfully complete the dungeon. It wasn't perfect every time but that's part of learning. And some runs were so smooth you wouldn't have guessed they were new.

I'm speechless your former team mates felt the need to kick a 5th player due to low dps. It's disgusting. I don't know what their LFG read but if it read "level 80s dps only". That can be open to interpretation. I may be level 80 using dps traits but wearing soldier gear. I found one AC group in LFG looking for "lvl 80 high dps meta build". It's just a dungeon....not a T4 fractal/CM/Raid. Dungeons are the intro of group instanced content. It's where players learn to work together in instanced content.

One decently geared experienced player can carry a group. Maybe the player didn't want to do that but if there is a second decently geared experienced player then the mobs and bosses should melt then. The only issue is having the other 3 players keep up.

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@Ayakaru.6583 said:I'm sorry, but how naive do you have to be to believe the people weren't already toxic before ArcDPS came out.Tools don't breed toxicity.Toxicity abuses tools.

technically correct, wrong in practice. there is a difference between a knife and an automatic weapon.

@Cyninja.2954 said:

  • 4 warrior 1 chrono

just want to point out that there weren't any chronos back then lol.

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@"heartless.9014" said:Many games don't explicitly allow damage meters. Games like FF14 doesn't have them either. Granted they do exist for that game too. However, it is a bannable offense to bring it up in game. Even as much as talking about it is grounds for a suspension.

GW2 needs a firmer hand on damage meters. Any references to damage, or numbers should be bannable. I don't do dungeons in this game because of that very reason. I'm not the best player in the world, still pretty unfamiliar with most of the game's intricate designs. I can't wear beserker gear as I'm not good enough at dodging and avoiding things and need the extra health padding. I'm not good enough with swapping weapons around and have a hard time with combo finishers.

Veteran players seem to always forget just how much of a steep learning curve the game can have. And some people just don't want to do speed runs of everything. I HATE SPEED RUNS. I really despise how the dungeon community is here. Everyone wants to clear it in world record setting speed. I would rather take some extra time and do the dungeon at a slower pace. We still finish it, so why is it a big deal?!

With respect, damage meters are not your problem. Speed runs would exist with or without them and players who would give you a hard time now would still do so without a damage meter. They'd simply find another metric to base their judgments upon. Behaviors such as requiring perfect group comps and achievements would become more prevalent.

In any event, you have a way to exert some control over this issue yourself. Again, damage meters are not your problem. Your problem is the type of player you're grouping with. Take control of the situation! Form your own group and be specific about your expectations. Many players of all skill levels enjoy casual runs either to take it easy or just to lend a hand to players who might otherwise struggle. What you generally won't find are obsessive speed runners willing to join groups that explicitly state their intentions NOT to lead that type of run!

I'm personally a fan of the tags "chill run", "casual run", or "new players welcome". These are like a huge, blinking neon sign telling speed runners to run the other direction FAST!

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